1 00:00:03,930 --> 00:00:06,990 Jennifer Duke: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business interview. I'm Jennifer 2 00:00:06,990 --> 00:00:09,988 Jennifer Duke: Duke. There's a new analysis that paints a pretty grim 3 00:00:09,990 --> 00:00:13,950 Jennifer Duke: picture of retirement for Australian women. How Australia Retires is 4 00:00:13,950 --> 00:00:16,679 Jennifer Duke: a study by Vanguard, one of the world's largest global 5 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:20,370 Jennifer Duke: investment management companies. It has more than $ 12 trillion in assets 6 00:00:20,370 --> 00:00:23,700 Jennifer Duke: under management globally, and it found that compared to men, 7 00:00:23,759 --> 00:00:26,999 Jennifer Duke: women face significant challenges in the lead up to retirement. 8 00:00:27,030 --> 00:00:30,479 Jennifer Duke: This includes differences in their home ownership rates, personal super 9 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:34,109 Jennifer Duke: balances, their own investments, annual income, and just their overall 10 00:00:34,109 --> 00:00:37,020 Jennifer Duke: confidence levels. So I wanted to take a closer look 11 00:00:37,020 --> 00:00:38,970 Jennifer Duke: at some of this research and get an idea of 12 00:00:38,970 --> 00:00:42,270 Jennifer Duke: what might be needed to change the situation. Shannon Nutter 13 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:44,909 Jennifer Duke: is the head of Vanguard Super. Shannon, welcome to Fear 14 00:00:44,909 --> 00:00:45,390 Jennifer Duke: and Greed. 15 00:00:45,780 --> 00:00:47,430 Shannon Nutter: Great to be here. Thanks so much for having me. 16 00:00:48,210 --> 00:00:50,519 Jennifer Duke: So I wanted to have a look at the financial circumstances of 17 00:00:50,519 --> 00:00:52,739 Jennifer Duke: women before they retire, first of all, just in those 18 00:00:52,739 --> 00:00:55,620 Jennifer Duke: numbers. So a third of working age women reported a 19 00:00:55,620 --> 00:00:58,890 Jennifer Duke: super balance of less than $20, 000, and that was versus 20 00:00:58,890 --> 00:01:01,710 Jennifer Duke: about 12% of men in the same category. That's a 21 00:01:01,710 --> 00:01:03,690 Jennifer Duke: pretty confronting statistic, isn't it? 22 00:01:04,620 --> 00:01:07,770 Shannon Nutter: It is. And what we've seen is that women are 23 00:01:07,770 --> 00:01:10,710 Shannon Nutter: just not on equal footing when it comes to retirement. 24 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:16,560 Shannon Nutter: They earn about 13% less than their male counterparts, and 25 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,890 Shannon Nutter: they often work in lower- wage industries, take time off 26 00:01:19,890 --> 00:01:23,550 Shannon Nutter: to handle home issues such as kids or parents, and 27 00:01:24,150 --> 00:01:28,768 Shannon Nutter: they live longer, which okay, is great for us. However, 28 00:01:29,010 --> 00:01:32,910 Shannon Nutter: it means we actually need more in retirement. So it's 29 00:01:32,910 --> 00:01:33,869 Shannon Nutter: a bit of a challenge. 30 00:01:34,530 --> 00:01:36,600 Jennifer Duke: So at the other end of the spectrum, there's about 31 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,178 Jennifer Duke: 60% of men who have a balance in their superannuation 32 00:01:39,179 --> 00:01:42,179 Jennifer Duke: of over $100, 000, which is more than double the proportion 33 00:01:42,179 --> 00:01:44,939 Jennifer Duke: of women on your research. What are some of the 34 00:01:44,940 --> 00:01:47,850 Jennifer Duke: reasons why that gap is just so giant? You mentioned 35 00:01:47,850 --> 00:01:49,260 Jennifer Duke: childcare is obviously one of them. 36 00:01:50,100 --> 00:01:54,540 Shannon Nutter: Right. And the wages, the roles that women actually have 37 00:01:54,540 --> 00:01:57,629 Shannon Nutter: when they work. But I think it goes beyond that 38 00:01:57,630 --> 00:02:01,859 Shannon Nutter: too. I think it also relates to confidence and it 39 00:02:01,860 --> 00:02:06,299 Shannon Nutter: relates to planning. So if we talk about confidence, well, 40 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,950 Shannon Nutter: men just simply have more of it. They're more confident 41 00:02:10,950 --> 00:02:14,789 Shannon Nutter: about financial decision making. So we saw that 50% of 42 00:02:14,790 --> 00:02:18,239 Shannon Nutter: men in the survey said they were very or extremely 43 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:23,969 Shannon Nutter: confident making decisions related to managing their finances, and only 44 00:02:23,969 --> 00:02:28,260 Shannon Nutter: about a third of women said the same. So that's 45 00:02:28,260 --> 00:02:32,490 Shannon Nutter: a significant difference. And if we look at the confidence, 46 00:02:32,910 --> 00:02:38,250 Shannon Nutter: that extends across products, it extends across confidence in understanding 47 00:02:38,610 --> 00:02:44,280 Shannon Nutter: things like shares and bonds and superannuation. And so all 48 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:48,810 Shannon Nutter: of those things add up in terms of likelihood to 49 00:02:48,810 --> 00:02:53,219 Shannon Nutter: invest, likelihood to potentially invest in something that is well 50 00:02:53,219 --> 00:02:57,989 Shannon Nutter: suited to you, well diversified. And so one thing that 51 00:02:57,990 --> 00:03:00,149 Shannon Nutter: women might want to think about in terms of an 52 00:03:00,180 --> 00:03:04,290 Shannon Nutter: action is how they can move the needle for themselves 53 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:08,220 Shannon Nutter: just a little bit to become more comfortable on these 54 00:03:08,220 --> 00:03:12,000 Shannon Nutter: topics. Not necessarily become experts, nobody has to become an 55 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:16,439 Shannon Nutter: expert, but start advancing their knowledge in some way. 56 00:03:17,219 --> 00:03:19,080 Jennifer Duke: And what sort of things should they do to be 57 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:21,060 Jennifer Duke: able to do that? Is that a simple case of 58 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,359 Jennifer Duke: Googling and figuring it out, or where do they start? 59 00:03:25,470 --> 00:03:27,809 Shannon Nutter: It could be. I mean, it could be a call 60 00:03:27,809 --> 00:03:33,328 Shannon Nutter: to their superannuation to talk about products. Most providers have 61 00:03:33,660 --> 00:03:37,830 Shannon Nutter: basic information about their products and services, certainly on their 62 00:03:37,830 --> 00:03:41,310 Shannon Nutter: website. And hopefully, those are explained in an easy to 63 00:03:41,310 --> 00:03:45,359 Shannon Nutter: understand way so that folks can make sense of it. 64 00:03:46,170 --> 00:03:50,459 Shannon Nutter: And beyond that, I'd say there are certainly investing blogs. 65 00:03:50,820 --> 00:03:55,290 Shannon Nutter: There are groups for women in particular to talk about 66 00:03:55,290 --> 00:03:59,520 Shannon Nutter: finance in ways that feel comfortable to them. And there 67 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:01,500 Shannon Nutter: may be women who have friends who are good at 68 00:04:01,500 --> 00:04:04,230 Shannon Nutter: this. So maybe just talk about it to some of 69 00:04:04,230 --> 00:04:07,020 Shannon Nutter: your friends. Maybe there's somebody in your core group that 70 00:04:07,020 --> 00:04:10,680 Shannon Nutter: actually knows something about these things, does it well, and 71 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,110 Shannon Nutter: is willing to share that knowledge. So I think there's 72 00:04:13,110 --> 00:04:16,469 Shannon Nutter: a range of actions women can take and places that 73 00:04:16,500 --> 00:04:20,700 Shannon Nutter: hopefully feel comfortable for them to go and expand their knowledge. 74 00:04:21,029 --> 00:04:23,729 Jennifer Duke: I think that's a great idea. And obviously, there are 75 00:04:23,730 --> 00:04:26,219 Jennifer Duke: things clearly then that women can do themselves. Is there 76 00:04:26,219 --> 00:04:28,979 Jennifer Duke: something that you think the government might want to do 77 00:04:28,980 --> 00:04:30,269 Jennifer Duke: in terms of closing this gap? 78 00:04:30,870 --> 00:04:34,800 Shannon Nutter: Well, I think certainly, we would support the government paying 79 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:38,849 Shannon Nutter: super on paid parental leave. We know that women retire 80 00:04:38,849 --> 00:04:43,529 Shannon Nutter: with 25 to 35% less super than men, and there's 81 00:04:43,529 --> 00:04:47,279 Shannon Nutter: rising rates of poverty and homelessness among older women. And 82 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:51,120 Shannon Nutter: so that isn't great. So if we could do anything 83 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:55,800 Shannon Nutter: to close that gap on super balances, that would be 84 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:56,549 Shannon Nutter: a good start. 85 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:59,070 Jennifer Duke: Stay with me, Shannon. We'll be back in a minute. 86 00:05:05,219 --> 00:05:07,920 Jennifer Duke: I'm talking to Shannon Nutter, the head of Vanguard Super. 87 00:05:09,089 --> 00:05:11,729 Jennifer Duke: And what about women's expectations? Because I think the research 88 00:05:11,730 --> 00:05:14,520 Jennifer Duke: showed that women want to retire earlier than men, but 89 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:16,800 Jennifer Duke: expect that they'll actually end up working even longer. 90 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:21,268 Shannon Nutter: Yes. And that is the case. Women would like to 91 00:05:21,270 --> 00:05:25,710 Shannon Nutter: retire at about age 62, but they expect to retire 92 00:05:25,710 --> 00:05:30,089 Shannon Nutter: when they're about 66. And that number even extends if 93 00:05:30,089 --> 00:05:33,328 Shannon Nutter: you think about single women who aren't part of a 94 00:05:33,870 --> 00:05:38,610 Shannon Nutter: partnered family. So I think what we have to think 95 00:05:38,610 --> 00:05:42,450 Shannon Nutter: about there is if that's the case, we know that's 96 00:05:42,450 --> 00:05:46,950 Shannon Nutter: what the data says, how do women start planning earlier? 97 00:05:47,670 --> 00:05:53,040 Shannon Nutter: How do they start putting some real thought to, " I'm 98 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,698 Shannon Nutter: going to retire at some point down the track. What 99 00:05:56,700 --> 00:06:01,289 Shannon Nutter: do I need to do today to get myself ready 100 00:06:01,290 --> 00:06:04,920 Shannon Nutter: and to feel confident?" What we saw in the survey 101 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:09,750 Shannon Nutter: was that almost half of women surveyed, 46%, said they 102 00:06:09,750 --> 00:06:13,229 Shannon Nutter: had no plan or did not know what they needed 103 00:06:13,230 --> 00:06:14,190 Shannon Nutter: for retirement. 104 00:06:14,549 --> 00:06:15,389 Jennifer Duke: That's crazy. 105 00:06:15,870 --> 00:06:18,900 Shannon Nutter: It is such a high number. And the opposite is 106 00:06:18,900 --> 00:06:23,250 Shannon Nutter: true for men, right? 73% of men said, " Hey, I've 107 00:06:23,250 --> 00:06:25,890 Shannon Nutter: got a general plan, a good plan," or, " I know 108 00:06:25,890 --> 00:06:30,150 Shannon Nutter: exactly what I'm going to need for retirement." And so without 109 00:06:30,150 --> 00:06:34,109 Shannon Nutter: that plan, even a basic one, it could be with 110 00:06:34,109 --> 00:06:37,020 Shannon Nutter: a financial advisor or it could just be sitting down 111 00:06:37,020 --> 00:06:40,169 Shannon Nutter: or using the tools available from your superannuation or another 112 00:06:40,170 --> 00:06:44,488 Shannon Nutter: financial provider to say, " When do I think I want 113 00:06:44,490 --> 00:06:48,719 Shannon Nutter: to retire? What do I have today? How do I 114 00:06:48,719 --> 00:06:51,420 Shannon Nutter: expect that's going to grow over time? What might that 115 00:06:51,420 --> 00:06:55,589 Shannon Nutter: look like when I'm of retirement age? What might that 116 00:06:55,589 --> 00:07:00,510 Shannon Nutter: translate to in terms of a retirement income? And what 117 00:07:00,510 --> 00:07:03,779 Shannon Nutter: can I do to boost that number?" And it might 118 00:07:03,779 --> 00:07:08,309 Shannon Nutter: be as simple as finding some extra discretionary dollars in 119 00:07:08,309 --> 00:07:12,690 Shannon Nutter: your budget to start making voluntary contributions, because we know 120 00:07:12,690 --> 00:07:17,340 Shannon Nutter: that women are far less likely to make voluntary contributions 121 00:07:17,670 --> 00:07:19,410 Shannon Nutter: to their super than men. 122 00:07:20,490 --> 00:07:23,370 Jennifer Duke: And I'm very curious around this financial advice sector because 123 00:07:23,370 --> 00:07:26,219 Jennifer Duke: just reflecting on my own personal friendship group, a lot 124 00:07:26,219 --> 00:07:29,219 Jennifer Duke: of my male friends all go to financial planners. Hardly 125 00:07:29,219 --> 00:07:31,920 Jennifer Duke: any of my female friends do at all. I find 126 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,290 Jennifer Duke: that difference really, really stark. And you can actually get 127 00:07:34,410 --> 00:07:37,800 Jennifer Duke: financial planning funded through your super. I think that's correct. 128 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:40,469 Jennifer Duke: What do you think needs to be done to encourage 129 00:07:40,469 --> 00:07:43,049 Jennifer Duke: women to be, and I know you're saying there's a confidence 130 00:07:43,049 --> 00:07:45,509 Jennifer Duke: gap here, but how do we get them confident and 131 00:07:45,509 --> 00:07:47,070 Jennifer Duke: enough to go and sit down in front of a 132 00:07:47,070 --> 00:07:49,110 Jennifer Duke: financial advisor? What do you think we need to do 133 00:07:49,500 --> 00:07:50,430 Jennifer Duke: to push them along? 134 00:07:51,390 --> 00:07:54,810 Shannon Nutter: Well, I would hope some of the data makes women 135 00:07:54,810 --> 00:07:58,529 Shannon Nutter: feel a little more comfortable maybe going and asking for 136 00:07:58,530 --> 00:08:01,529 Shannon Nutter: help. The data would suggest that those who have a 137 00:08:01,530 --> 00:08:04,650 Shannon Nutter: plan, whether they created it themselves or whether they worked 138 00:08:04,650 --> 00:08:09,360 Shannon Nutter: with a financial advisor, are six times more confident than 139 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:14,640 Shannon Nutter: those without a plan. And so sit down, assess your 140 00:08:15,300 --> 00:08:19,020 Shannon Nutter: finances, see what you're earning, see what you're spending, see 141 00:08:19,020 --> 00:08:23,340 Shannon Nutter: what you could potentially put towards retirement and feel comfortable 142 00:08:23,340 --> 00:08:28,950 Shannon Nutter: doing so. Even starting there is a step forward. Take 143 00:08:28,950 --> 00:08:32,040 Shannon Nutter: some action. We know that taking action makes you feel 144 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:35,850 Shannon Nutter: more confident, more in control. So start doing that. And 145 00:08:36,420 --> 00:08:39,450 Shannon Nutter: then you could say, " Okay, now I've pulled my things 146 00:08:39,450 --> 00:08:43,860 Shannon Nutter: together. My information is here. Let me go talk to 147 00:08:43,860 --> 00:08:47,820 Shannon Nutter: somebody." Because I do think sometimes, there's a bit of 148 00:08:47,820 --> 00:08:50,970 Shannon Nutter: a fear, and I think this is just human nature 149 00:08:50,970 --> 00:08:54,569 Shannon Nutter: of if I go talk to someone who is knowledgeable, 150 00:08:54,570 --> 00:08:57,180 Shannon Nutter: they'll see that I'm not knowledgeable. 151 00:08:58,260 --> 00:09:00,420 Jennifer Duke: I feel like that every time I do an interview 152 00:09:00,450 --> 00:09:02,790 Jennifer Duke: with an expert on the podcast. So it's a relatable 153 00:09:02,790 --> 00:09:03,630 Jennifer Duke: feeling, people. 154 00:09:05,250 --> 00:09:07,770 Shannon Nutter: Right? That notion of I don't want to feel dumb. 155 00:09:08,910 --> 00:09:12,839 Shannon Nutter: And I think there is a history, to a certain 156 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:17,250 Shannon Nutter: extent, in different industries of people making women feel a 157 00:09:17,250 --> 00:09:21,090 Shannon Nutter: little less. And so I think a lot of that 158 00:09:21,090 --> 00:09:24,030 Shannon Nutter: has changed over time, but being able to go and say, " 159 00:09:24,059 --> 00:09:27,630 Shannon Nutter: Look, this is what I don't know," that's okay. They're 160 00:09:27,630 --> 00:09:29,880 Shannon Nutter: an expert. They're supposed to be there to help you. 161 00:09:30,270 --> 00:09:33,300 Shannon Nutter: So I think that if that's a concern for people, 162 00:09:33,839 --> 00:09:36,540 Shannon Nutter: they just need to hopefully let that go and just 163 00:09:36,540 --> 00:09:39,179 Shannon Nutter: go in and have a conversation. 164 00:09:39,540 --> 00:09:41,820 Jennifer Duke: Definitely. And I also wanted to ask about what role 165 00:09:41,820 --> 00:09:44,010 Jennifer Duke: businesses can play here, because there will be a lot 166 00:09:44,010 --> 00:09:47,010 Jennifer Duke: of businesses who are listening who will be wondering how 167 00:09:47,010 --> 00:09:50,099 Jennifer Duke: they can help their female staff members, and particularly those 168 00:09:50,099 --> 00:09:52,559 Jennifer Duke: who are potentially returning from career breaks, such as for 169 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:54,900 Jennifer Duke: childcare. Do you have any tips for how they can 170 00:09:54,900 --> 00:09:57,180 Jennifer Duke: maybe educate or help their teams? 171 00:09:57,690 --> 00:10:00,059 Shannon Nutter: Well, I think there's a few things that businesses could 172 00:10:00,059 --> 00:10:03,809 Shannon Nutter: do to help employees. I know at Vanguard, we pay 173 00:10:03,809 --> 00:10:07,950 Shannon Nutter: super on paid parental leave. So companies could certainly be 174 00:10:07,950 --> 00:10:12,029 Shannon Nutter: proactive in that area. And I think the onus isn't 175 00:10:12,029 --> 00:10:16,800 Shannon Nutter: just on women to be proactive. What can employers do? 176 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,699 Shannon Nutter: Such as offering free childcare, paying for super, we already 177 00:10:20,700 --> 00:10:23,400 Shannon Nutter: talked about that, but things that allow women to get 178 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:30,150 Shannon Nutter: back to work and continue contributing. Now, we also could 179 00:10:30,150 --> 00:10:36,120 Shannon Nutter: have better experiences, better communications, things that work for women, 180 00:10:36,179 --> 00:10:40,950 Shannon Nutter: frankly, and help them get engaged, provide real insight. So I think 181 00:10:41,670 --> 00:10:45,749 Shannon Nutter: the industry as a whole sometimes has just dumped information 182 00:10:45,750 --> 00:10:49,350 Shannon Nutter: on people, just lots and lots of information. Go sift 183 00:10:49,350 --> 00:10:51,390 Shannon Nutter: through it yourself. Go figure out what you need to 184 00:10:51,390 --> 00:10:54,390 Shannon Nutter: do. And the reality is, most of us don't do 185 00:10:54,390 --> 00:10:56,819 Shannon Nutter: that. We don't have the time to do it. We 186 00:10:56,820 --> 00:10:59,340 Shannon Nutter: don't necessarily have the interest to do it. And so 187 00:10:59,340 --> 00:11:04,949 Shannon Nutter: the more that financial institutions like Vanguard and others can 188 00:11:05,010 --> 00:11:10,500 Shannon Nutter: break down that information into really insightful pieces and help 189 00:11:10,500 --> 00:11:13,860 Shannon Nutter: give guidance about what to do next to improve your 190 00:11:13,860 --> 00:11:17,369 Shannon Nutter: retirement outcomes, that's going to be great for everyone. 191 00:11:18,179 --> 00:11:20,759 Jennifer Duke: I think that's a really, really good point. And I'm 192 00:11:20,759 --> 00:11:22,920 Jennifer Duke: hoping there's lots of women listening as well who are 193 00:11:22,980 --> 00:11:24,840 Jennifer Duke: going to go and do something about their super balances 194 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,270 Jennifer Duke: now. And it's Shannon, thank you very much for talking 195 00:11:27,270 --> 00:11:28,050 Jennifer Duke: to Fear and Greed. 196 00:11:28,710 --> 00:11:30,090 Shannon Nutter: Oh, thank you so much for having me. 197 00:11:30,510 --> 00:11:33,088 Jennifer Duke: And that was Shannon Nutter, the head of Vanguard Super. 198 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,819 Jennifer Duke: This is the Fear and Greed daily interview. Join us 199 00:11:35,820 --> 00:11:38,220 Jennifer Duke: every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, 200 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:42,330 Jennifer Duke: Australia's best business podcast. I'm Jennifer Duke, economics correspondent for 201 00:11:42,330 --> 00:11:44,608 Jennifer Duke: Capital Brief, and filling in for Sean Aylmer. Have a 202 00:11:44,610 --> 00:11:45,179 Jennifer Duke: great day.