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Speaker 1: I'll get a team. Welcome to another installment of my

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Speaker 1: favorite podcast. Well is it? Look it's definitely in the

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Speaker 1: top five, maybe not definitely top ten. This is definitely

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Speaker 1: in the top ten of my favorite podcasts. Now people

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Speaker 1: are going to email me tip, say what's number one?

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Speaker 1: Roll with the Punches? Of course? Oh I see what

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Speaker 1: it did there. That'll be ten dollars, thank you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're welcome anyway, Welcome to the You Project, everyone. Tiffany

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Speaker 1: and Cookers over there at typ Central. It's early in

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Speaker 1: the morning, per It's nine point thirty four in the

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Speaker 1: am here in the thriving metropolis of Melbourne. She is

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Speaker 1: normally punching people in the face at the gym because

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Speaker 1: she's a pugilistic thug. She's a mover and a shaker.

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Speaker 1: Why are you not at the gym punching people in

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Speaker 1: the face?

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Speaker 2: I have been, I have been already, and I've I've

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Speaker 2: just swooned in for a quick party and then I'll

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Speaker 2: be off doing it again after this.

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Speaker 1: Somebody asked me recently, does tiff still fight? Does she

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Speaker 1: still get in the ring and have your days of

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Speaker 1: actual boxing? Punching poor unsuspecting women in the face, and

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Speaker 1: the odd man. I know that happens unofficially, but that's

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Speaker 1: just Saturday night in the car park outside the pub.

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Speaker 1: But have your official days of boxing been hung up?

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Speaker 2: I actually punch more blokes than ladies currently, and I

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Speaker 2: don't know if there'll ever be a time in life

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Speaker 2: where I will say, Yep, I'm done. There's definitely no

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Speaker 2: more fights, really, and I think a lot of boxes

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Speaker 2: in combat sports people would agree with that philosophy. It's

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Speaker 2: always lurking, not far behind. It's just life, you know,

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Speaker 2: taking priority most of the time.

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Speaker 1: Well, and also cognitive health and brain health. You know,

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Speaker 1: I worry about your brain. Could you please stop getting

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Speaker 1: hit in the face. I know, I know you do

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Speaker 1: most of the hitting. But doctor Bill Sullivan, I bet

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Speaker 1: you're not a big fan of CT or being punched

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Speaker 1: in the head in general, are you.

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Speaker 3: No. We wrote about that in my book. It's generally

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Speaker 3: a bad idea to take repeated blows to the head.

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Speaker 1: It's funny that it's funny that, Tiff, are you listening?

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Speaker 2: I might go, I might just pull that client and

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Speaker 2: tell them what usual time I'll see.

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Speaker 4: A good thing.

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Speaker 1: Well, I didn't want to.

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Speaker 3: This is like, this is this is why I don't

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Speaker 3: get invited back on a lot of stuff.

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Speaker 4: I tell people the truth.

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Speaker 3: I tell them what they don't want to hear, like, yes,

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Speaker 3: you are abusing your body, Yes you're doing something you

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Speaker 3: shouldn't and yeah, and they don't call me back, And

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Speaker 3: then I wonder why.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's I mean, it's funny, isn't it. More broadly,

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Speaker 1: I mean everyone that I was, including tif that getting punched

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Speaker 1: in the face is bad for a Brian. But you've

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Speaker 1: mitigated that, really, haven't you liked You're not getting hit

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Speaker 1: in the head these days much, are you?

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Speaker 2: No? No, definitely, I definitely. It was a big concern

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Speaker 2: for me for quite a while, and I stopped doing

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Speaker 2: it at all, and then I just weighed things up

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Speaker 2: and went, well, you know, in life, we always have

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Speaker 2: to have a happy medium. You got to do what

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Speaker 2: you love and just manage the risks as best you're

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Speaker 2: comfortable with.

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Speaker 1: Having said that, don't get in the ring again properly,

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Speaker 1: will you please? But it's funny you say that, doctor Bill,

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Speaker 1: because in terms of I was thinking about the one

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about science communication today because I've

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Speaker 1: got a little bit of a story I want to

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Speaker 1: share that I want your thoughts on it. But like

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Speaker 1: a lot of the messages that we need to hear,

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Speaker 1: perhaps let's put that in inverted commas need to hear

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Speaker 1: around our health and our lifestyle and our behaviors and

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Speaker 1: our habits, they're not always the messages that we want

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Speaker 1: to hear, right, And so you as a scientist, researcher, communicator, educator,

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Speaker 1: and me not in the ballpark of you, but I

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Speaker 1: still do. I stand in front of lots of audiences

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Speaker 1: and it's like sometimes I say, I can tell you

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Speaker 1: the thing that you want to hear or the thing

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Speaker 1: that you need to hear, what you refer and I

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Speaker 1: reluctantly say, okay, tell us what we need to hear.

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Speaker 1: And it's just because some of the stuff is just

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Speaker 1: like creating improved health and function and operation and new

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Speaker 1: habits and new behaviors and a new lifestyle. It's sometimes

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Speaker 1: it's just hard, uncomfortable work, right.

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Speaker 4: It can be very challenging.

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Speaker 3: Like you said, when you get new data, it often

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Speaker 3: changes lives and a lot of people get set in

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Speaker 3: their ways or they enjoy certain activities that you know

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Speaker 3: inflame our dopamine system and give us a lot of pleasure,

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Speaker 3: and we have to balance, you know, how well we

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Speaker 3: want to take care of our physical and mental well

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Speaker 3: being with how much short term pleasure we want to experience,

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Speaker 3: you know.

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Speaker 4: And I get it. You know, people, some people.

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Speaker 3: Who really like to live for the day aren't really

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Speaker 3: too concerned about the future. But a lot of people,

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Speaker 3: I think, when they get to the future, look back

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Speaker 3: on those old days and wish they would have behaved differently.

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Speaker 3: But one of the strategies I used, Craig that I've

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Speaker 3: developed rather recently when people give me a hard time

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Speaker 3: about yeah, you really shouldn't eat that third doughnut, or

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Speaker 3: yeah you shouldn't get regularly kicked in the head, or

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Speaker 3: yeah you should get this vaccination.

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Speaker 4: It's going to protect you and those around you.

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Speaker 3: These are things that, maybe inconvenient disrupt people's lives, and

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Speaker 3: they don't want to do it themselves. So I ask, okay, well,

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Speaker 3: think about this, what would you tell your children, you know,

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Speaker 3: how would you encourage them to behave.

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Speaker 4: And nine times out of ten.

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Speaker 3: A lot of them would tell their children something different

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Speaker 3: than how they're behaving right now in the moment. So

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Speaker 3: like they will tell their children to eat better, Yet

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Speaker 3: they themselves will not follow that scene advice, so reframing it,

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Speaker 3: taking the issue off of them and talking about their

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Speaker 3: children can really make a difference sometimes definitely.

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Speaker 1: And also, yeah, that makes complete sense. And I think

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Speaker 1: the challenge is that I think for a lot of people,

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Speaker 1: like in the micro of the day to day, like today,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah, today, I've got to get through this. And

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Speaker 1: I'm like, it's almost like nearly everyone has this intention

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Speaker 1: that they're going to change something soon. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: stop that soon. I'm going to do less of that

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Speaker 1: and more of that. I'm going to deal with that

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Speaker 1: shitty behavior. I'm going to make better decisions, do better things,

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Speaker 1: create better outcomes. And I'm going to start Monday, not today,

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Speaker 1: but I'm going to start Monday, or I'm going to

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Speaker 1: start January one, because that's the stuff starting day, you know.

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Speaker 1: And I think sometimes in the day today micro, we

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Speaker 1: forget to zoom out and just go all right, well,

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Speaker 1: let's look at me at this point in time on

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Speaker 1: my journey. You know, I just turned sixty and let's

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Speaker 1: say hopefully I've got ninety years. Who knows, I could

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Speaker 1: have sixty one, We don't know. But if I go

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Speaker 1: all right, well, I'm sixty years old. What do I

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Speaker 1: want my body to work like, feel like, function like

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Speaker 1: when I'm sixty five, Let's hope I'm still around. What

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Speaker 1: kind of lifestyle do I want to have? What kind

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Speaker 1: of behaviors do I want to be embracing, What kind

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Speaker 1: of relationships, what kind of situation and environment? What kind

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Speaker 1: of work do I want to be doing? All of

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Speaker 1: these kind of big picture questions, and then zooming back

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Speaker 1: to now. So what do I need to do now though?

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Speaker 1: To make that likely? What decisions do I need to make?

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Speaker 1: What things do I need to acknowledge? Because I think

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Speaker 1: to an extent, I think, to an extent, doc we

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Speaker 1: live in this kind of almost groundhog day and then

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Speaker 1: we go, oh shit, and now I'm sixty or now

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Speaker 1: I'm fifty.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, those are great questions.

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Speaker 3: Getting out getting yourself out of the day to day

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Speaker 3: route teens can be a real challenge, especially if they

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Speaker 3: are routines that you have built up over years, maybe decades.

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Speaker 3: Those are hard habits to break. There's a lot of

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Speaker 3: tools out there now, however, that can hold you accountable

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Speaker 3: to the goals that you want to achieve. And I

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Speaker 3: liked one of the things you said Craig, you talked

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Speaker 3: about your future self, you know, your sixty five year

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Speaker 3: old self, and what that person is going to be like,

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Speaker 3: what they would kind of come back and tell sixty

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Speaker 3: year old Craig to do or not do in order

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Speaker 3: to be better. And that's a really great strategy. You know,

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Speaker 3: we have this very powerful capacity for imagination, and a

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Speaker 3: lot of times we don't use it.

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Speaker 4: You know, if we.

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Speaker 3: Envision ourselves in the third person as like a friend

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Speaker 3: in the future, Okay, what is my future self going

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Speaker 3: to feel like about the behaviors that I'm doing today?

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Speaker 3: Would they condemn them or would they praise them? And

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Speaker 3: that's a good way to frame, you know, the behaviors

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Speaker 3: you're undertaking on a day to day basis, and if

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Speaker 3: your future self is not going to approve, that should

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Speaker 3: give you some incentive to dissociate yourself from that habit. Now,

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Speaker 3: in terms of breaking those habits and making new ones,

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Speaker 3: you can basically take advantage of the same system that's

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Speaker 3: in the brain in order to change bad habits. One

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Speaker 3: of the first things you have to recognize are the

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Speaker 3: emotions that swell up right before you engage in that

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Speaker 3: bad habit, like before you eat that third doughnut, or

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Speaker 3: before you go out for a cigarette or have like,

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Speaker 3: you know, another beer, you want to think about, do

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Speaker 3: I really want to do this? Recognize that emotion that

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Speaker 3: you think that's going to give you pleasure, and it

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Speaker 3: probably will in the short term, but you have to

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Speaker 3: envision what the long term effect is going to have.

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Speaker 4: That can be a powerful way to break it. You

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Speaker 4: need to you need to think about your emotions.

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Speaker 3: You need to put a space in between when those

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Speaker 3: arise and what sort of action you take, and try

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Speaker 3: to build new healthy habits around that.

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Speaker 1: I think also like the idea I love that, but

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Speaker 1: also the idea of when I say to people, don't

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Speaker 1: overthink this, but what are your values? What are some

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Speaker 1: of your values for life? And then people will often go, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know, my quality time with my family, you know,

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Speaker 1: mental health, physical health, you know all these great things.

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Speaker 1: And then I say, great, let's jump those down and

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Speaker 1: now let's do an inventory or a stock take or

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Speaker 1: an audit on our current behavior. Like is the way

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Speaker 1: that I typically live in alignment with ice with the

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Speaker 1: things that I say are my values? Like if I

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Speaker 1: didn't know you, but I just observed you, would I

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Speaker 1: know that phiz mental and emotional health was a priority

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Speaker 1: based on how you live, and people go, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: well maybe not. You know, so it's not about how

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Speaker 1: to walk, it's not about condemnation or criticism. It's about awareness,

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Speaker 1: you know, because you're not going to accidentally end up healthy,

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Speaker 1: You're not going to accidentally end up successful. You know.

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Speaker 1: It's like you need to recognize the thing that you

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Speaker 1: say really matters. And then you know, I think being

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Speaker 1: able to turn down the emotion a little bit and

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Speaker 1: be brave and courageous and say am I full of shit?

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Speaker 1: Or am I an example of the things that I

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Speaker 1: want my kids to do? Like even for me, I

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Speaker 1: have a pretty big platform, and I write a lot

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Speaker 1: and teach a lot, and sometimes like there were periods

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Speaker 1: in my life where I owned gyms, Like I owned

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Speaker 1: multiple gyms, and I had five hundred staff working for

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Speaker 1: me over a period of time. And there were times

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Speaker 1: bill where I was telling people to do stuff that

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Speaker 1: I wasn't doing, you know, and I was living out

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Speaker 1: of alignment, and it it. You know, I was kind

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Speaker 1: of operating on this fraudulent level where I wasn't trying

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Speaker 1: to be a fraud, but I was teaching people how

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Speaker 1: to live and make decisions, and you know, human optimization

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Speaker 1: and nutrition and then secretly eating crap and dealing with

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Speaker 1: all my the same you know, human bullshit. So you

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Speaker 1: know we're all prone.

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Speaker 3: You sound like one of those television evangelists.

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Speaker 4: You know, they're.

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Speaker 3: Talking about the Bible and don't do this and that sin,

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Speaker 3: and then boom they're out doing that very thing.

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Speaker 4: So like Socrates's kind of sad, you know, they self right.

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Speaker 3: You got to take stock of your actions every single

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Speaker 3: day and if they're out of alignment with the virtues

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Speaker 3: that you want to possess, you know, don't eat yourself

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Speaker 3: up about it. Everybody makes mistakes, but you take that

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Speaker 3: knowledge and do something productive with it for the next

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Speaker 3: day and say I'm going to I'm going to do

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Speaker 3: better tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to talk to you about. I sent you

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Speaker 1: a few ideas I wanted to talk about, and one

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Speaker 1: was the idea of you know, most of our listeners,

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Speaker 1: we have a great audience, shout out to you, audience,

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Speaker 1: love you. About seventy percent of our audience a female,

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Speaker 1: about thirty percent male for whatever reason, and I would

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Speaker 1: think it's it's you know, a very curious, very engaged audience,

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Speaker 1: but not not disproportionately higher in academics. So I don't know,

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Speaker 1: maybe ten percent fifteen percent academics, but eighty five percent

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Speaker 1: ninety percent not academics per se, which is not a

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Speaker 1: judgment either way, but trying to, trying to, I'm always

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Speaker 1: thinking about how do I share these messages? How do

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Speaker 1: I get the bill on who's an academic and a

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Speaker 1: scientist and in my opinion, a genius and share ideas,

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Speaker 1: thoughts and information. So here's two parts. How do we

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Speaker 1: share this stuff in a way that's not only relatable

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Speaker 1: and understandable, but maybe a little bit inspirational. But then

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Speaker 1: my next question is how can those of us who

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Speaker 1: are not perhaps scientists or don't really understand the jargon

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Speaker 1: or lingo, how can we implement science in our own life?

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Speaker 1: How can we I don't know, I guess, run our

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Speaker 1: own studies? How can we do how can we be

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Speaker 1: an equals one in the middle of our own little

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Speaker 1: kind of experiment? And is that a good idea of

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Speaker 1: what does that look like?

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Speaker 4: There's a lot to unpack there.

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Speaker 1: Yes, sorry about that. That was thirty questions, so good

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Speaker 1: good luck?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, how much time we got so let's deal with

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Speaker 3: the last question you asked, and if there's elements that

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Speaker 3: I didn't address, we'll come back to them. I'll be

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Speaker 3: happy to fill in in a holes that I leave.

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Speaker 3: But when you're asking something about how non scientists can

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Speaker 3: maybe embrace a more scientific lifestyle or more evidence based lifestyle,

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Speaker 3: even though obviously they don't subscribe to the scientific technical

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Speaker 3: journals and understand a lot of the heavy jargon that's

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Speaker 3: out there, I don't understand a lot of it myself,

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Speaker 3: to be honest. I mean, there's very narrow fields of

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Speaker 3: science that we specialize in. So while you call me

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Speaker 3: a genius, I kind of laugh at that because there

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Speaker 3: are I know far less about many more things than

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Speaker 3: the some.

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Speaker 4: Things I do know about.

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Speaker 3: You know, So you know, you need to start with

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Speaker 3: an intellectual humility, which surprisingly a lot of people do

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Speaker 3: not have. Goes back to what we were saying earlier.

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Speaker 3: We get stuck in our ways, we have our habits

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Speaker 3: and think we're you know, we think we're living well

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Speaker 3: and right. But you've got to start with the humility

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Speaker 3: that you could be wrong about things and let life

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Speaker 3: surprise you, let you know, go where the evidence takes you.

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Speaker 3: So in my personal opinion. Note to answer your question,

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Speaker 3: I think we're all kind of born scientists. Humans are

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Speaker 3: evolutionarily wired to look for patterns in nature and in

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Speaker 3: their lives and in their human interactions in order to

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Speaker 3: try to formulate predictions because we don't like uncertainty. It

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Speaker 3: creates chaos in our lives. And back in the day

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Speaker 3: when we just climb down from the trees and survival

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Speaker 3: was everything, you needed to be really cautious and formulate

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Speaker 3: good models about how the world works, or that was

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Speaker 3: the end of your genetic line, you know. So those

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Speaker 3: behaviors are woven into the very fabric of our DNA.

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Speaker 3: So we're naturally curious and we look for these patterns,

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Speaker 3: and that's pretty much what a scientist is. So I've

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Speaker 3: been curious all my life. It starts with this, Hey

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Speaker 3: I don't know this, I'm curious about it. So I'm

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Speaker 3: going to formulate a hypothesis, which is an educated guess

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Speaker 3: as to what might happen if I do X, or

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Speaker 3: what might happen if I do Y. And then you

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Speaker 3: conduct that experiment and you analyze the results and you

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Speaker 3: try to see if your guest was correct or not, and.

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Speaker 4: If it's correct.

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Speaker 3: Maybe you hit upon the truth, maybe still could have

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Speaker 3: missed something, But if you can't falsify the hypothesis, that

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Speaker 3: is a signal that you're on the right track. And

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Speaker 3: that's how science works. It's really that simple, educated guest

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Speaker 3: do an experiment and then analyze the data.

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Speaker 4: Now, what's beautiful about science?

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Speaker 3: I advocate science all the time as the greatest method

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Speaker 3: humanity has devised. Yeah, that can get us as close

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Speaker 3: to the truth as possible. Okay, it can give us

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Speaker 3: the most accurate representation of what's.

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Speaker 4: Out there in the world. It just works.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it has great merit, it's a rigorous system,

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Speaker 3: it is self correcting, and it's democratic. And what I

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Speaker 3: mean by that is that other people can do the

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Speaker 3: same experiment that you performed, Okay, and if they repeat

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Speaker 3: your results, that's further evidence.

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Speaker 4: That you're on the right track. But if someone can't get.

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Speaker 3: The results that you did, maybe you need to revisit

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Speaker 3: your experiment or your ideas and reformulate them. That's why

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Speaker 3: I think science is so beautiful, and you can apply

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Speaker 3: it to just about everything in your life, you know,

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Speaker 3: And I think evidence based living is what I championed

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Speaker 3: in the book. Please to meet me, and that system

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Speaker 3: is a great way to go about making decisions in

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Speaker 3: your life because you know they're rooted in reality, you

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Speaker 3: know they're based in evidence, and you can move forward

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Speaker 3: not only to make a better life for yourself and

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Speaker 3: your family, but hopefully to have better interactions and make

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Speaker 3: the world a better place.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's I love all of that. So let's

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Speaker 1: say somebody says that makes sense to me, Doc I

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Speaker 1: want to start, I don't know where to start. Here's

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Speaker 1: an idea, tell me what you think of this. So

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Speaker 1: I was talking to somebody recently and it was about

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Speaker 1: the whole very typical weight loss, health, fitness, fatness, in shape,

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Speaker 1: out of shape, longevity, health span conversation, and I said too,

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Speaker 1: it was a lady. I said, here's my idea. This

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Speaker 1: is a question I ask a lot of people that

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Speaker 1: they don't think about, is how many calories do you

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Speaker 1: drink a day? And they're like, what, I go, how

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Speaker 1: many calories do you drink a day? And so when

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Speaker 1: we broke down calories that are in liquid form for her,

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Speaker 1: it was on ad about eight hundred calories a day,

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Speaker 1: and I said, well, over a thirty day or Yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's say a thirty day period a typical month, that's

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Speaker 1: twenty four thousand calories. So why don't you try this,

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Speaker 1: Why don't you try one month with no liquid calories

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Speaker 1: so you can have some tea or coffee, no milk,

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Speaker 1: you can drink water of course, anything that doesn't contain calories.

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Speaker 1: Leave your food the same, you know. And I've done

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Speaker 1: this with lots of people, and I go leave all

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Speaker 1: the other variables the same, but just change that, just

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Speaker 1: so that there's not a multitude of things we're changing,

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Speaker 1: and then we don't know exactly what's working and what's not.

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Speaker 1: And anyway, so she's started that, and she's dropping some

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Speaker 1: fat and weight, which is good, and she's happy, and

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Speaker 1: she's surprised. What a simple protocol. That's not her word,

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Speaker 1: that's mine. But how easy that is to do? Do

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Speaker 1: you think that's a good way to start? Is just

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Speaker 1: doing a period of time and trying one thing and

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Speaker 1: changing one thing? Is that a good kind of starting

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Speaker 1: or step off point?

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Speaker 3: Well, I can certainly tell you from a scientific perspective,

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Speaker 3: ideally you just want to work with one variable at

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Speaker 3: a time. Same goes for medicine. You know, when you're

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Speaker 3: looking at you know, the effects of different drugs, whether

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Speaker 3: they work or not, what side effects might arise. You

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Speaker 3: have to do what we call very control, well controlled experiments.

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Speaker 3: In other words, you only want to analyze the one

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Speaker 3: variable that you're testing. Otherwise what we call confounding variables

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Speaker 3: can come into the equation and cloud our interpretation of

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Speaker 3: the data. So I really like your approach there, not

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Speaker 3: only because on a scientific level it's like a well

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Speaker 3: controlled experiment, but I also believe that if you're trying

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Speaker 3: to initiate change in someone's life, particularly as it pertains

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Speaker 3: to diet, changing just one small thing is a lot

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Speaker 3: easier than a tremendous upheaval and all of their habits

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Speaker 3: all at once.

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Speaker 4: So I think that has a much greater chance of success.

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Speaker 3: And then you know, maybe the next round you can

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Speaker 3: try dropping out one other high calorie item from their

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Speaker 3: lifestyle and see even more improvement.

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Speaker 1: You think. Also, so even putting aside the physiological you know,

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Speaker 1: the energy and out component, and you just think about

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Speaker 1: the social, the behavior or the emotional and the psychological

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Speaker 1: stuff that's wrapped around in this example food, You know,

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Speaker 1: so many of us have been eating a certain way

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Speaker 1: and choosing a certain way for so long. It's very

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Speaker 1: unlikely that we're going to undo that programming in four weeks,

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Speaker 1: you know, especially when we're talking about thirty or forty

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Speaker 1: or fifty years of thinking and eating and kind of

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Speaker 1: operating in a certain way. Yeah, but I think having

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Speaker 1: that clearly defined kind of product while I'm doing one

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Speaker 1: thing and I'm doing it for this long, I think

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Speaker 1: that I like working in short blocks too, like a

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Speaker 1: month or thirty days, twenty eight days, whatever it is,

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Speaker 1: because for me, it seems like it's it's short enough

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Speaker 1: to stay pretty focused, but long enough to get some

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Speaker 1: some data, you know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think not long ago, maybe a couple of

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Speaker 3: years ago, there was a great book written called Dopamine Nation,

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Speaker 3: and it speaks to some of these principles. Humans can

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Speaker 3: become addicted to pretty much anything. Okay, so when we

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Speaker 3: ingest certain foods or you know, a lot of sugar,

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Speaker 3: a lot of fat, for example, very similar analogous things

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Speaker 3: can happen in our brain at a molecular level to

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Speaker 3: that compared to someone who is basically hooked on drugs

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Speaker 3: or alcohol. You know, the brain changes to expect and

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Speaker 3: accommodate this massive amount or this unusually high sugar amount

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Speaker 3: that you're putting into your body. So if you start

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Speaker 3: giving that up, you know it has to be done

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Speaker 3: gradually or else your body is going to go into

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Speaker 3: I guess what you would analogously call withdraw and you're

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Speaker 3: going to need to combat those symptoms of withdrawal by

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Speaker 3: re engaging in the bad habit that you're trying to remedy.

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Speaker 3: So stepping down from things is probably a wiser route,

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Speaker 3: you know, if it's at all possible. And in the

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Speaker 3: case of drug and alcohol addiction, scientists are trying to

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Speaker 3: devise similar molecules that work the way the drug does.

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Speaker 3: It binds to the same receptors, but can do so

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Speaker 3: in a non addictive fashion, so you can get the

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Speaker 3: person weaned off the drug without experiencing the harsh withdrawal

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Speaker 3: symptoms and kind of let the brain recalibrate itself, getting

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Speaker 3: back to this what we call homeostasis. Okay, that's kind

436
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 3: of like the baseline of where your.

437
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 4: Brain should would be.

438
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 3: When you start overindulging and getting addicted to things, whether

439
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 3: it be something in your diet, alcohol, or drugs, the

440
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 3: brain is going to adapt to those and weaning yourself

441
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 3: off can create some very serious problems.

442
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: It's almost like DOPA means the addiction, but we just

443
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 1: take different paths to get there.

444
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 4: You know, it's likely, Yeah, I'm addicted.

445
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 1: To that feeling, to that biochemical reaction, and gambling or

446
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:34,400
Speaker 1: booze or drugs or pawn or whatever. That's the conduit.

447
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 1: That's the door that opens the response for me. So

448
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 1: I'm going to keep opening that door.

449
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 3: That's right, and that hits upon the thesis of this book.

450
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 3: You can become addicted to psychological things as well. The

451
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,679
Speaker 3: author of the book herself admitted that her addiction was

452
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 3: like teenage romance novels or something like that.

453
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 4: She just couldn't stop reading them.

454
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 3: Very benign addiction compared to someone on on crack or cocaine,

455
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:05,439
Speaker 3: But nevertheless, it illustrates that the same brain pathways, the

456
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 3: same transmitters are involved, and the same deprogramming steps are

457
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 3: as effective. So yeah, you just basically kind of got

458
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,880
Speaker 3: to get your brain back to homeostasis. And the hardest part,

459
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 3: the biggest challenge is coping with the withdrawal period. If

460
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 3: you can get through that period, you're kind of well

461
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 3: on your way. The author of this book also cited

462
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 3: like alcoholics anonymous as a really good program to hold

463
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:37,200
Speaker 3: yourself accountable and to have other people kind of hold

464
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 3: you accountable or at least be there when you feel

465
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 3: like you're going to cave into the craving, so that

466
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 3: social support system can be invaluable in helping people shake

467
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:51,680
Speaker 3: some of their bad habits.

468
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, you spoke before a little bit about I think

469
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 1: you said about being open to a can't remember exactly,

470
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 1: but open to learning new things. And I think one

471
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 1: of the challenges too when you are a when you

472
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,640
Speaker 1: you know, scientist, non scientist, but when you have certain

473
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 1: certain ideas or beliefs that you believe to be true,

474
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 1: and you think, oh, this thing that I think that

475
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 1: is the truth. So therefore anything that doesn't align with

476
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 1: that is you know, problematic, or it's wrong or it's misinformed.

477
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: I think one of the challenges, like an example that

478
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: I've given too many times on this show, but I've

479
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 1: never given it to you, Doc, is when I grew

480
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 1: up in the early eighties and I was working in

481
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 1: gyms and working with athletes in the general public, and

482
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: I would talk to people about the food pyramid because

483
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: that's what I believe to be basically good science around food,

484
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: and then over time I realized that probably isn't optimal.

485
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,199
Speaker 1: And then, but what that meant for me was I

486
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: had to acknowledge that I've been wrong, and not only

487
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 1: had I been I was teaching people things that were wrong,

488
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: and so being willing to go, oh, one, I got

489
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: it wrong, being willing too to unlearn and then relearn.

490
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 1: And then I think three for me, I want to

491
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: know your opinion on this. I think the hardest thing

492
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,959
Speaker 1: is when your identity is intertwined with a certain model,

493
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,120
Speaker 1: or a certain paradigm or a certain belief system, When

494
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: you get your sense of identity from that, it makes

495
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: you pretty much unteachable.

496
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 4: I couldn't agree more.

497
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 3: I've accumulated a little bit of wisdom in my old

498
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 3: age as well. And when you're younger, you love to

499
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:42,959
Speaker 3: identify with things. You love to incorporate certain causes or

500
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 3: behaviors you know or groups as a part of you.

501
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 3: It's almost like you are proud of this, you're signaling it.

502
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 4: It's a real element of the self.

503
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 3: And I think that is that really backfires in a

504
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 3: lot of ways, because, as you said, it closes you.

505
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 3: You off automatically, and then the brain goes into like

506
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 3: this automatic shutdown when it here's something different than what

507
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 3: your group tells you to believe. And really, when you

508
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 3: identify with something like that, who are you living for now?

509
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 3: It's like you've erected this your own prison. Okay, you

510
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 3: really can't be an authentic self if you stop learning

511
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 3: and you're so glued to a concept, ideal organization that

512
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 3: you're impenetrable to new knowledge or evidence. And to me,

513
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 3: you might as well be six feet underground because you're

514
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 3: not really living anymore.

515
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 1: And also, I mean, now, now the person who you

516
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: know in this instance, so you know, in some ways

517
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: I would go, well, I'm a scientist, blah blah blah.

518
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 1: But also, oh but now I'm being emotional and irrational.

519
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: Now this is you know, it's like, because I don't

520
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 1: want to be wrong, and therefore if you don't agree

521
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: with me in inverted commas, then then you're the enemy.

522
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: And so then this and I think being able to

523
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: you know, I know this sounds quite philosophical, but you know,

524
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: it's a really interesting component of learning and growing, and

525
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 1: you know, experimenting and unlearning and relearning is being able

526
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 1: to deal with the fact that you're going to be right, wrong,

527
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 1: probably more than you're going to be right and being

528
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: okay with that, you know, whereas when we live in

529
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: this echo chamber of confirmation bias, where everyone in the

530
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 1: world who doesn't agree with me on this is wrong. Like, like,

531
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: even from a logical point of view, how dumb is

532
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 1: that thought?

533
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 4: Right? Right? How dumb?

534
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 1: How is that?

535
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's audacious and dangerous because when you think

536
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 3: you know everything, you are closing yourself off to new knowledge,

537
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 3: you know, and we're discovering new things all the time,

538
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 3: So you can get into very serious trouble if you

539
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 3: double down on, you know, beliefs that you.

540
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 4: Think are true.

541
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 3: We see this, unfortunately in politics all the time, and

542
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 3: it is so maddening that, you know, their behavior is

543
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 3: so ridiculous when they double down on something that is

544
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 3: obviously wrong, it's demonstrably false, and yet they stick to

545
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 3: their guns and end up shooting themselves in the foot

546
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 3: with those guns. You know, it's just a and there's

547
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 3: no way you can run a successful nation with leaders

548
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 3: like that. It's just like you said, it's a formula

549
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 3: for insanity. So we have this, and it goes back

550
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 3: to the issue we were talking about earlier, Craig. We

551
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 3: have this capacity in our brain to crave comfort, security, predictability,

552
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 3: and that's why we're so resistant to change. And there

553
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:52,959
Speaker 3: seems to be a window in our youth where we

554
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 3: are kind of trained that this is the right religion,

555
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 3: this is the right idea, this is the right behavior,

556
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 3: and it's like solidifies after a certain age. It becomes

557
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 3: very hard to start chipping away at that foundation, but

558
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 3: it certainly can be done. I mean, I work in

559
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 3: the sciences and I run into scientists quite regularly who

560
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 3: will double down on ideas that have been pretty convincingly

561
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 3: proven false. Okay, but they're going to cling to that

562
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 3: dogma that they're used to, you know, for reasons that

563
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 3: just defy logic at times. So even scientists and doctors

564
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 3: are not immune to this very quirky thing about the

565
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 3: human brain in that it just holds so tight it

566
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 3: gives you know what, It's like we're bear hugging our

567
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 3: beliefs when in fact we should just be holding that

568
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 3: hand very very loosely and be willing to let it go.

569
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 3: We have to get comfortable with uncertainty and the possibility

570
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 3: that we could be wrong about things. Yes, let me

571
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 3: tell you about this experiment. This is also a book.

572
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 3: It's a great concept that it was. It's the principle here.

573
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 3: Do you ever hear of something called the knowledge illusion?

574
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 1: I don't think so, tell me.

575
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 4: Yeah.

576
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 3: So the knowledge illusion was this experiment that was done

577
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 3: that got in a group of participants and they asked

578
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 3: the group if they knew how a bicycle were. They

579
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 3: asked them how confident they were, rate themselves on a

580
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 3: scale of one to ten, how well they think they

581
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 3: know how a bicycle works, And most people give themselves

582
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,719
Speaker 3: a ten. Sure, I know how a bicycle works. I've

583
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 3: been riding them all my life. I built one some

584
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 3: time ago.

585
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: Yeah.

586
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 3: And then the experimenters give them a piece of paper

587
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 3: with a half drawn bicycle on it and tell them

588
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 3: to complete the drawing, and most of them can't do it.

589
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 3: You should google these images because they are some of

590
00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 3: the most you know, outlandishly non functional you'll ever see

591
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 3: on paper. If like pedals and chains going all which way,

592
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 3: it clearly it wouldn't work. And then they have to reevaluate,

593
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 3: they have to rescore themselves, okay, and most of them

594
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,879
Speaker 3: bring their score way down because they realize I thought

595
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 3: I knew something and turns out I don't, and this

596
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 3: just isn't With bicycles, they ask them all sorts of questions,

597
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 3: you know, they ask them.

598
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 4: Like, how does a zipper work? Okay? How does a

599
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 4: toilet flush?

600
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 3: And then in America we ask questions like how well

601
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 3: do you know Obamacare?

602
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 4: Okay?

603
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 3: You ask them certain things that they that are political

604
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 3: in nature, that they think they know so much about,

605
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 3: and then you ask them just some very basic questions. Okay,

606
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 3: so tell me how a zipper works, tell me what

607
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 3: is Obamacare about?

608
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,359
Speaker 4: You know, how does it work? And they can't answer this.

609
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 4: This is the knowledge illusion. We think we have a

610
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 4: lot more knowledge in our head. We think we have

611
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 4: a much better understanding of the world world then we

612
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:05,439
Speaker 4: really do. So you got to put your money where

613
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 4: your mouth is.

614
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 3: And if you claim to know something, you know, you

615
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 3: have to be able to illustrate that you are an

616
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,720
Speaker 3: expert in the area. But I think what the knowledge

617
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 3: illusion really illustrates for you know, most people, is that

618
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 3: we have to accept the fact that we think we

619
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 3: know a lot more than we do, and we have

620
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 3: to get comfortable with that. That's not a ding against

621
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 3: your personality. It doesn't mean you're flawed in any way.

622
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 3: It means you're human. And if you don't accept that

623
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 3: as a basic fact, you're going to be closing yourself

624
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:43,240
Speaker 3: off from lifelong learning and possibly discovering some really interesting

625
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 3: and fascinating things about yourself or about the world.

626
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:47,800
Speaker 4: Yeah.

627
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 1: I love that. It's funny. When you said the knowledge illusion,

628
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 1: I almost went, yeah, I know what that is. I

629
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 1: would have been perfect because I.

630
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 4: Would have asked to Okay, how's it work exactly?

631
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: Fuck, I'm glad, I said no. But I've heard the term,

632
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 1: but I don't know what it is.

633
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:11,959
Speaker 3: But it's like, because you know, perfectly illegraated the kind

634
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 3: of intellectual honesty and humility that you need, why are

635
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,280
Speaker 3: people so afraid to say, I don't know, I would

636
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:20,879
Speaker 3: like to learn.

637
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:25,839
Speaker 1: To me, that's yeah, go on, well I think we do.

638
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,879
Speaker 1: You know, ego is self esteem all that bullshit. But

639
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,839
Speaker 1: but it's like you said, it's it's human. I mean

640
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 1: I I yeah, I think it's you know, like we

641
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 1: need to celebrate our humanity or at the very least,

642
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,359
Speaker 1: go yeah, I don't know, or I fucked that up.

643
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 1: I got that right, I got that wrong. You know,

644
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 1: like sometimes I'm in the middle of doing something or

645
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 1: saying something, and I have this awareness, Oh, this is

646
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 1: my ego right now, this is this is me trying

647
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: to make doctor Bill like me. In the moment, I'm

648
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 1: like more of my fucking seven you know.

649
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 3: But you evolved from a social primate species that are

650
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 3: very similar to chimpanzees, and we carry this evolutionary baggage around.

651
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 3: We want social advancement, we want to be respected in

652
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 3: the tribe. Because even worse than feeling seven Craig is

653
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 3: not being able to have opportunities.

654
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 4: To attract a mate.

655
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 3: Okay, And in the olden days, when we were climbing

656
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 3: down from the treaties, that was paramount. Reproduction was paramount,

657
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 3: and you had a much higher probability of passing along

658
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 3: your genes if you had a higher place in the

659
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 3: hierarchy within the tribe. And all these silly little games

660
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 3: that human beings continue to play today go all the

661
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 3: way back to that evolutionary psychology. And when you frame

662
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,240
Speaker 3: the silly things we do in that way, you know, subconsciously,

663
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 3: my brain wants to attract a mate. So that's why

664
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 3: I'm going to double down on this falsehood so that

665
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 3: I can maintain face and some semblance of prey man,

666
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 3: you really do look ridiculous. Yeah, but a lot of

667
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 3: people can't see through that.

668
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 1: You know, a lot of the conversations that I have

669
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 1: with different people from different spaces, background scientists or not,

670
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 1: we end up talking about the human experience, and we

671
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 1: kind of in a way come back to this underlying

672
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 1: idea in psychology of you know, metacognition is thinking about

673
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: how we think, like why do I think this way?

674
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 1: Why do I tell myself? What's the origin story for

675
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 1: this thought? What's the origin story for this story? You know? Like,

676
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,840
Speaker 1: and then you know, the next layer up in the

677
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 1: self awareness pyramid from that is theory of mind is

678
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: me trying to understand how TIF thinks, Me trying to

679
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 1: understand how you know, how you think, Bill, And then

680
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,720
Speaker 1: above that is my PhD, which is a meta perception

681
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: and meta accuracy, is me trying to understand the creve

682
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 1: experience for you. But just in general terms, I don't

683
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 1: think we actually think about how we think or why

684
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,720
Speaker 1: we think the way we think as much as we should.

685
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 1: We just think and believe that we're right because well

686
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 1: that's what I think.

687
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 4: Did you?

688
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 1: But rather go cool. I get it. I get it

689
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 1: that you believe that and that you think that, And

690
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 1: I'm not debating you. I'm just going why do you

691
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 1: think that? And a lot of people go, fuck, I

692
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:29,959
Speaker 1: don't know, I just think that, right.

693
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 3: But that's that's a wonderful question to ask someone, especially

694
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 3: if you have differing opinions on an issue. Rather than

695
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 3: just get mad and go on to defensive, you know,

696
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 3: to try to prove that you're right, why not get curious, okay,

697
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 3: get curious about that person and try to understand, well, hey,

698
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 3: I have a completely different view. What have you experienced

699
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 3: in your life that has led you down a different

700
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 3: path to come up with a completely different conclusion. And

701
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 3: you know, just because you understand how they arrived that

702
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 3: their belief doesn't mean you agree with it or condone it.

703
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 3: But to have that understanding makes for a much more

704
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 3: productive conversation than two people just trying to convince each

705
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 3: other that they're idiots and that they're wrong. You know

706
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 3: that plays out in American politics and probably Australian politics

707
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 3: as well every single day. Rather than people trying to

708
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 3: come together and learn why they believe the way they do,

709
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 3: they would just rather fight and name call and throw

710
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 3: a bunch of mud. And you can't have a productive

711
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 3: society when everyone's acting that way now.

712
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 1: And you, I mean, you know, Stephen Covey and a

713
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 1: bunch of others, you know, seek first to understand and

714
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 1: then to be understood. But I think one of the

715
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 1: one of the misconceptions is if I say something like

716
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 1: I understand war, people think they're saying I can doone war. No.

717
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 1: I fucking hate war, but I understand how it happens.

718
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:13,280
Speaker 1: I understand domestic violence, but I hate it. I understand

719
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 1: drug addiction, but I don't can you know. It's like

720
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,840
Speaker 1: I can't overcome the thing I can't understand or won't understand.

721
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 1: And so whether or not I agree or disagree a

722
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 1: line or don't a line, support or don't support whatever

723
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 1: it is that person believes, thinks, I want to understand it,

724
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 1: you know, because that's the stepping off point. Whereas you're

725
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 1: exactly right in not just in politics, but in religion,

726
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 1: in you know, in food. Cults Like to me, they're

727
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,799
Speaker 1: all just cults of thinking. It's like this is how

728
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 1: in our whether it's religious, political, nutrition, sociological, cultural, there

729
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 1: are all these cults of thought, where this is how

730
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 1: we think, this is how we see the world, this

731
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 1: is what we believe. All of that's cognitive stuff, right,

732
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 1: And in the middle of that is absolute intolerance for

733
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 1: anything that doesn't sound or look or smell like me,

734
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 1: you know, and just the willingness to go Look, Bill,

735
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 1: I don't agree with you, but I'm really curious. Tell

736
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,919
Speaker 1: me where that came from. And maybe maybe you'll turn

737
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 1: me around. Maybe you won't. But even if we are

738
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 1: diametrically opposed, that's still okay. I believe in God and creation.

739
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 1: You believe you're an atheist and you believe in evolution.

740
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 1: But we can still be mates because, of course, our

741
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: friendship ain't dependent on or you know, yeah, it ain't

742
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:40,760
Speaker 1: reliant on total agreement.

743
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 4: Absolutely.

744
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:46,840
Speaker 3: I always encourage people that when you encounter someone different

745
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:51,359
Speaker 3: than you, to view them as a mosaic piece of art, right, Yeah,

746
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:53,320
Speaker 3: you know, the mosaics are made up of these tiny

747
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 3: little tiles, and if you're real close to the piece

748
00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 3: of work, you can't.

749
00:42:58,360 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 4: Tell what it is.

750
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 3: You need to say, step back in order to get

751
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 3: the whole picture and see the complete portrait or the

752
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 3: complete person. So, like you said, when we align in

753
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 3: like a cult cult like fashion to group think and

754
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 3: have to agree with everything that our group says, or

755
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 3: else will become an outsider to that group. Okay, despite

756
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 3: all of that, that's only one tile of their personality.

757
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 3: And believe me, on the book tours and when I

758
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 3: go out and give scientific lectures to the general public,

759
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 3: I encounter a lot of people who are very unlike

760
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 3: me okay in certain respects. And we always try to

761
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:45,840
Speaker 3: approach that situation and saying, okay, my beliefs about X

762
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 3: or just this one.

763
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 4: Tile in my entire mosaic.

764
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 3: I bet we can find other tiles that we have

765
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 3: in common, and we more, we have a lot more

766
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 3: in common then we do differences. So when we start

767
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 3: talking about music, okay, or movies or you know, things

768
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 3: that we like to do in nature, these are things

769
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 3: that you can grab onto that are commonalities. And despite

770
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 3: any sort of like political or philosophical difference, all of

771
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 3: that suddenly seems to shrink. Those differences get smaller and

772
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,320
Speaker 3: the things that you do have in common get larger.

773
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:23,320
Speaker 3: So we need to keep in mind when we encounter

774
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 3: people different from us, that we're only looking at like

775
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 3: a tip of the iceberg or we're only looking at

776
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 3: like one tile in this very large mosaic. I have

777
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 3: a formula that I write about recently called the three C's,

778
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 3: and I think it really helps. It's easy to remember

779
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 3: when you approach these, you know, difficult conversations, So you

780
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 3: want to engage more with curiosity, okay, then to automatically

781
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 3: start spewing out a whole bunch of things and reasons.

782
00:44:57,560 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 4: Why you're right. Okay.

783
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:03,320
Speaker 3: In the old days, I used to like bury anti

784
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:08,360
Speaker 3: vaxxers in charts and graphs and data, and that approach

785
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 3: failed miserably. That's not what they want to hear. So

786
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 3: instead of trying to be persuasive, I get curious, and

787
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,319
Speaker 3: just like you said, Craig, I try to learn what

788
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:23,919
Speaker 3: experiences did they have that that has led them to this,

789
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 3: you know, refusal or hesitancy about a vaccine of some kind.

790
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:33,319
Speaker 3: So that curiosity can spawn some very interesting information and

791
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 3: usually provides you more about you know, their life and

792
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,799
Speaker 3: values that you can find commonalities. And then when you

793
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:44,800
Speaker 3: start developing like a relationship a respectable you know, almost

794
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 3: even a friendship with this person, they're more likely to

795
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:52,359
Speaker 3: entertain any sort of evidence or experience that you want

796
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:56,240
Speaker 3: to send their way. So that's the first the curiosity.

797
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 3: The second one is compassion, and this is kind of related.

798
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 3: We have a tendency as human beings to get a

799
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 3: little aggressive when we're trying to defend our own beliefs

800
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 3: or when we're trying to prove someone wrong, and that

801
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:16,400
Speaker 3: usually comes at the expense of a compassionate conversation. So

802
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 3: you really want to show the other party that you're

803
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:23,919
Speaker 3: genuinely interested in why they share these differences, okay, why

804
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 3: they have these differences. And the third s is civility.

805
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 3: There's no reason why we can't have a conversation about

806
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 3: differences without getting all angry and aggressive and resorting to

807
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 3: name calling and whole bunch of horrible things. So keeping

808
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:48,359
Speaker 3: the conversation civil is also going to go a long way. Now,

809
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:51,439
Speaker 3: I engage in dialogues with a lot of people who

810
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 3: might be opposed to evolution, might be opposed to vaccination,

811
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 3: don't believe climate change is happening. That can be a

812
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 3: very frustrating experience for me as a scientist because of

813
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 3: the experiences I've had. So I want to learn what

814
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:09,359
Speaker 3: is it about their life that has led them down

815
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 3: a different path. I try to stay compassionate and understanding.

816
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:15,920
Speaker 3: And even though I'm not going to persuade them, at

817
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:19,480
Speaker 3: least not with just one encounter, I walk away from

818
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 3: that discussion with the idea, with the comfort that they

819
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 3: now know me not as like some kind of aggressive

820
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 3: scientist who is just out to call them stupid, but

821
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:33,959
Speaker 3: as someone who genuinely cared about how they felt, why

822
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 3: they believe the way they do. I wasn't trying to

823
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 3: ram stuff down their throat or convince them that I

824
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 3: was correct. Just wanted to show respect, show some civility.

825
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,919
Speaker 3: So now when they think about scientists or doctors, their

826
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 3: mind might not go to a negative place. They're going

827
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:55,759
Speaker 3: to say, hey, my conversation with Bill was really cool.

828
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 3: He respected me, he was trying to understand my views.

829
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 3: You know, maybe he's onto something. You know, who knows.

830
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:06,359
Speaker 3: I think you're going to make more progress that way

831
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 3: than if you're just having you know, horrible nan calling episodes.

832
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:17,720
Speaker 1: I think it's great that you actually conceptualize that because

833
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 1: it's true, and irrespective of who's right, wrong, what's true,

834
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 1: what's not true, Like, there's a certain energy in conversations,

835
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 1: and you know, even sometimes people that I agree with

836
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 1: I don't like the way that they go about sharing

837
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:35,280
Speaker 1: their thoughts. It's like, I actually believe what you believe,

838
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 1: but I don't like the aggression. I don't like the condescension.

839
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 1: I don't like the arrogance or the superiority. It's like,

840
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:46,759
Speaker 1: you know, that doesn't even if you're right, and who knows,

841
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:49,360
Speaker 1: but let's go, even if you're right, there's still a

842
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:51,719
Speaker 1: way to connect with people that's going to be more

843
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:56,839
Speaker 1: resonant or less resonant. And there's you know, so, and

844
00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 1: I'll be the.

845
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 3: First to say that scientists and doctors are horrible at that.

846
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:04,320
Speaker 3: I mean that there's not all of them, of course,

847
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:08,839
Speaker 3: but many of them take that condescending route or you know,

848
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:12,759
Speaker 3: I'm your doctor, just do as I say, and you know,

849
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 3: next patient, please, So yeah, you know, they don't take

850
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 3: the time and the energy to explain things.

851
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 4: And I get it.

852
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 3: I've been on the other side of the fence. It

853
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 3: can be frustrating sometimes. And there's other people who are

854
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 3: just really you know, they show that cult side and.

855
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:29,280
Speaker 4: It can get very unnerving.

856
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 3: But you have to exercise those three c's, you know, curiosity, compassion, stability.

857
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 3: It'll get us much further than if we try to

858
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:41,400
Speaker 3: continue on the same path that we're on now.

859
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 1: One hundred percent. I love chatting with you. You're in

860
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 1: my top few. Love chatting with you. Appreciate you is

861
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 1: place to make me. Is that your most recent book?

862
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,880
Speaker 3: It is, it's actually the only book, but it is

863
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 3: coming up when it's five year anniversary this August, So

864
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 3: I can't believe the time flies, man, But it's great

865
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 3: to know that.

866
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 4: It's still making waves.

867
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 3: It's still been translated into a dozen languages so far.

868
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 3: So I'm just so grateful that people are reading it

869
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 3: and absorbing that message in that book.

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00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 1: I want to know, did you do the audio version,

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00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,239
Speaker 1: the Mandarin audio version? Did you do that?

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00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 4: No?

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00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:30,799
Speaker 3: I didn't do any of the audio any of those

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00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:33,240
Speaker 3: audio versions.

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00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 4: But yeah, a Mandarin one for me would have been

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00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 4: very interesting.

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00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, it would have been interesting for people who actually

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00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:43,239
Speaker 1: speak Mandarin as well. Hi, Doc will saygobof here. But

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00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 1: once again, do you want to point anyone towards your

880
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:48,200
Speaker 1: socials or a website or anything do you want to

881
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 1: direct now?

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00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:49,359
Speaker 4: Thanks?

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00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 3: Thanks, thanks for reminding me. Author Bill Sullivan dot com.

884
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 3: You'll find information about the book we've been alluding to

885
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,400
Speaker 3: but I have been writing a lot of articles, especially

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00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:03,319
Speaker 3: about the topics we've been discussing today, Craig, about these

887
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:07,400
Speaker 3: civil conversations and trying to understand people who are different

888
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 3: than you. You can find those articles at author Bill

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00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:11,720
Speaker 3: Sullivan dot com.

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00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 1: Wow. We appreciate you, sir, love that you agree to

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00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 1: be part of this. Every so often we'll say goodbye affair,

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00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 1: but from the moment, thanks again, Doc.

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00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 4: Anytime, it's always a pleasure.