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Speaker 1: The new book From Boys to Men is out now.

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Speaker 2: It's guiding our teen boys to grow into happy, healthy

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Speaker 2: young men. And we have got the lady behind the book,

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Speaker 2: the magnificent Maggie Den on the line.

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Speaker 1: Now, Maggie want.

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Speaker 3: Monday, Maggie.

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Speaker 4: This who This is just such a topic. Obviously everybody's

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Speaker 4: interested in. Everybody has a question for you. I don't

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Speaker 4: know how you walk down the street just to set

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Speaker 4: things up here in the studio for us, for you

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Speaker 4: with Tommy has two kids, a girl and a boy.

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Speaker 4: Fitzy's got two boys, Sarah's got two boys, and I've

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Speaker 4: got two boys and one girl.

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Speaker 1: Woo a lot of boys. So we need your help, Maggie.

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Speaker 3: We know what as we can, we know what to

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Speaker 3: do in usmare time.

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Speaker 2: What I do love about this though, is that it's

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Speaker 2: not I mean, this is a lot of this is you.

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Speaker 1: But you do a lot of research.

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Speaker 2: It says here you are very grateful to the sixteen

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Speaker 2: hundred and seventy two men are over thirty, the nine

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Speaker 2: hundred and fifty seven boys age between twelve to eighteen.

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Speaker 1: So you do a lot of research.

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Speaker 2: You go and ask some of the questions that you

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Speaker 2: do ask these men and boys. I would like to

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Speaker 2: go through now with Whipper and I and talk about experience.

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Speaker 2: One of them is what was your most challenging experience

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Speaker 2: when you were routine Maggie, Can I.

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Speaker 5: That's a really good one, because I mean, obviously not

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Speaker 5: only raised four sons, but I counseled them and I

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Speaker 5: taught them for sixteen years. Yes, and so often they've

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Speaker 5: never shared this experience. And sometimes when I was working

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Speaker 5: with men the same thing, they bury it so deep

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Speaker 5: because they're worried about shame, but sell me yours, okay.

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Speaker 1: So can I.

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Speaker 2: I might even answer for Whipper here as well, because

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Speaker 2: I'm talking about the word puberty, I may do you

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Speaker 2: know what really really? And it instill so much fearing

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Speaker 2: to me to think, now, I went through puberty really

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Speaker 2: late in life, right, and I got bullied for that.

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Speaker 1: He Whipper was the opposite.

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Speaker 2: He started it very early, and in a way you

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Speaker 2: got bullied in a way the ways.

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Speaker 4: Wed and then shied away, Maggie because I didn't know

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Speaker 4: what was going on. No one really spoke to me,

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Speaker 4: and I was different to all the other kids.

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Speaker 5: So look, it's huge and it's one of the things

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Speaker 5: that you could see in the you know, in the survey,

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Speaker 5: it came up so often. That and also that teasing

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Speaker 5: and banter that sometimes is fun in male world, but

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Speaker 5: when you're you're you're a confused, you know, adolescent boy

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Speaker 5: who just wants desperately to belong and be acceptable.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it can really.

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Speaker 6: Cause big scars and takes a bit to undo later.

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Speaker 3: It does.

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Speaker 4: I remember going through it, and it was absolute helen

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Speaker 4: With my two boys. Now, I just make sure that

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Speaker 4: the conversation is open and it's free. Right, you're going

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Speaker 4: to grow up, you're gonna get hair on your chests,

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Speaker 4: you're gonna get pubes. I want that to be open

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Speaker 4: so that it doesn't become this, Oh, we won't talk

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Speaker 4: about that because it's awkward, because it's different.

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Speaker 5: And also there's that sense that we talk really badly

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Speaker 5: about teen boys, like you know, where you think there's

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Speaker 5: stupid and then monosyllabic and they're just useless and they're forgetful,

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Speaker 5: and all these things that happened to them can actually

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Speaker 5: all be explained.

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Speaker 6: And so when I was working still with them in schools.

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Speaker 5: The palpable sigh of relief on their face when they

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Speaker 5: realized their brain pruning was what was causing half of

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Speaker 5: the forgetfulness and the disorganization, not that suddenly they got

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Speaker 5: dumb overnight. And it's really huge when we inform them

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Speaker 5: of what's coming and remind them while they're on that bridge.

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Speaker 5: That's a bit wonky for a few years, but really

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Speaker 5: it takes until you're mid to late twenties to get

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Speaker 5: your you know, your social sorted.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, then they've actually got a sense of what's going on.

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Speaker 6: And so we just went we weren't telling them any.

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Speaker 2: No, see, Maggie, young men, we were abel We don't

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Speaker 2: want to I don't want to talk to march. I

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Speaker 2: didn't want to talk to mum about going through puberty

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Speaker 2: and why it wasn't happening to me. So how do

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Speaker 2: we how do we break that barrier as parents when

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Speaker 2: we get to teenagers, because there is that moment where

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Speaker 2: we don't want anything to do with our parents at

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Speaker 2: always teenage boys.

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Speaker 5: And that's exactly one of the things we need to understand,

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Speaker 5: and why lots of mummies say something.

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Speaker 6: I think an alien stole MYSI. He was lovely. Now

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Speaker 6: he doesn't want a thing to do with me.

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Speaker 5: That's a biological pushing back that we all do girls

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Speaker 5: do the same. But what we actually always had in

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Speaker 5: place was what I call a tribe around them of

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Speaker 5: significant lighthouse figures, whether it's you know, aunts and uncles

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Speaker 5: and teachers like me, because they would they would come

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Speaker 5: and ask those questions of me because I was safe

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Speaker 5: and I was trustworthy, and I wouldn't make fun of

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Speaker 5: them if they didn't know any answers. So it's about

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Speaker 5: us creating the tribe around it, and us as parents,

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Speaker 5: our job is to co parent the mates because they've

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Speaker 5: pushed their parents away. So like, if I could have

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Speaker 5: a house full of boys and a boy who's just

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Speaker 5: seriously stunk like mad and didn't know he did, and

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Speaker 5: I'm going to run him home, I said, mate, I

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Speaker 5: can't have you in the car like that. Come put

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Speaker 5: some deoda and on. He goes, Oh, okay, Maggie. But

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Speaker 5: if his mum had.

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Speaker 6: Said it, it will stop criticizing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, right.

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Speaker 2: You've got to find those mentors around them that they

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Speaker 2: can trust and open up too.

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Speaker 5: Sometimes it is a coat, and sometimes it's a music teacher,

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Speaker 5: and sometimes it's grandparents. That's actually come up really high

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Speaker 5: in the survey from the boys boys age twelve to eighteen,

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Speaker 5: around twenty five percent of them has said their significant

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Speaker 5: lighthouse figure was their grandparent.

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Speaker 7: Do you think that needs to be a female because

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Speaker 7: my kids are very young and my mum in particular

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Speaker 7: has a background in teaching and so she takes really

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Speaker 7: it goes to extra levels to do the things you're

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Speaker 7: talking about already with my eldest who's not even three yet.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's interesting in that journey because I mean and

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Speaker 5: mothering our boys, I had to kind of decode boy

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Speaker 5: behavior so mums could understand it. And what way I

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Speaker 5: found was that from that survey and this one is

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Speaker 5: that boys on the journey over manhood to manhood are

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Speaker 5: actually looking at women and men.

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Speaker 6: To work out how I want to be.

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Speaker 5: So it's not just men, but sometimes the ability to communicating.

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Speaker 5: There are some men now who are stepping up because

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Speaker 5: they now know it's important. There were quite a few

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Speaker 5: messages of dads who said I didn't know anything, but

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Speaker 5: I'm going to be a much better dad like my

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Speaker 5: dad wasn't available.

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Speaker 6: I'm right there and I want to walk my.

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Speaker 5: Kids through the cock ups they do without shame and punishment.

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Speaker 5: So an actual fact, it's probably sometimes it's going to

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Speaker 5: be the females in our world, but the aware and

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Speaker 5: conscious men who are now appearing.

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Speaker 6: Everywhere are equally as valid.

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Speaker 5: But there are some things that women explained a little

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Speaker 5: bit better than dads.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true, Maggie.

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Speaker 4: I want to know because Ted my otis is five,

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Speaker 4: and I've heard that when kids sort of hit seven,

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Speaker 4: you know, that's an age where they start to shut

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Speaker 4: down and distance themselves and internalize a lot of stuff.

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Speaker 4: The big thing for me, and I think most modern

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Speaker 4: day parents is they just want to be able to

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Speaker 4: keep the conversation going, hoping that when things get a

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Speaker 4: little more serious at the age of fifteen sixteen, they're

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Speaker 4: still open to talking through things. Is there a technique

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Speaker 4: to making sure that they continue to discuss things with you?

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Speaker 6: There's no question.

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Speaker 5: Actual fact, eight is the more tricky age. They get

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Speaker 5: a lot more sensitive, and then nine is when they

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Speaker 5: suddenly realize that, hang on a minute, there aren't superheroes

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Speaker 5: are going to arrest it, and all the world starts

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Speaker 5: resetting and it gets.

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Speaker 6: A bit disappointed. Wow, no question, it's yeah.

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Speaker 5: Nine, are really eight heading into ninety And there's also

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Speaker 5: some laying down of some different hormones. So an actual fact,

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Speaker 5: the sensitivity, and a lot of boys will say things

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Speaker 5: in that age frame around oh I just want to die,

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Speaker 5: or you know, nobody cares, and they make these really

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Speaker 5: giant statements when they don't really mean it. What they're

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Speaker 5: trying to show is how big they're feeling is. So

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Speaker 5: my big one is it's actually being present, So being

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Speaker 5: present when they're not necessarily wanting to talk. But if

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Speaker 5: you've got a common interest, and of course I was

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Speaker 5: a mad basketball freak, so I always had a huge backboard,

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Speaker 5: so you know, I would just sometimes when they were

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Speaker 5: giving me the woops, I'd be out shooting hoops. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: and then later they'd come out with you, you see. And

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Speaker 5: it's about sometimes movement opens boys mouth. So going for

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Speaker 5: a walk, you know, going for a surf, go fishing,

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Speaker 5: whatever you might do, actually creates a presence and they.

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Speaker 6: Actually you're really there.

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Speaker 5: Whereas a lot of parents are struggling with that gosh

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Speaker 5: damn phone in their hand, a boy sees a phone

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Speaker 5: in your hand or hears the phone on the bench

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Speaker 5: beep and he just walks away. So they're really really

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Speaker 5: sensitive present. Sometimes you don't have to talk, but in

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Speaker 5: actual fact you are communicating enormously yes, that you are

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Speaker 5: connected and that you can.

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Speaker 6: That's the difference again with girls and boys a bit.

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Speaker 2: Can you go through that timeline that is really really

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Speaker 2: interesting from the age to seven to eight to nine?

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Speaker 1: Can you keep going with the ages? What happens to

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Speaker 1: young men?

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Speaker 5: Okay, So basically in that window this is where we

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Speaker 5: often once I've gone through that that shift, they often

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Speaker 5: can settle, like latter part of the age of nine

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Speaker 5: and ten, even a little bit of eleven, they can

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Speaker 5: actually be quite happy, jolly, uncomplicated, friendly boys who actually

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Speaker 5: do the dishwasher the first time you ask them. Then

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Speaker 5: then we know there's there's that shift again. And so

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Speaker 5: sometimes parents who have a son who's grown really tall,

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Speaker 5: like you were mentioning before, think they've matured.

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Speaker 6: No, that's just the.

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Speaker 5: Body that's physic It's like a Porsche with no breaks.

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Speaker 6: It's just it's yeah. And I think that's one of

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Speaker 6: the challenges.

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Speaker 5: When people understand the biological changes, the brain changes, the

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Speaker 5: hormone changes, the physical changes, the cognitive changes, and the

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Speaker 5: emotional changes that are happening randomly and strangely, you can

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Speaker 5: understand why times they get grumpy because they actually have

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Speaker 5: no idea why they feel quite so lousy, yes, or

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Speaker 5: why they've made such a poor choice.

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Speaker 6: And so when we're able to help them understand.

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Speaker 5: It, then guess what, they're more likely to come to

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Speaker 5: us when they're struggling or they've cocked up and made

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Speaker 5: a lousy choice in life. And that that is what

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Speaker 5: we really have to have them turning to us to

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Speaker 5: fall on when things go bad, instead of what we

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Speaker 5: now have an increase in anxiety, depression, self harm and suicide.

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Speaker 3: Maggie, my son Jack, who's what four?

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Speaker 1: Now?

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Speaker 3: Quick turn around between four and five. You're not wrong, man.

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Speaker 6: He's a hairsher.

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Speaker 4: He's so fierce, he's an absolute animal. And he's a

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Speaker 4: second child too, so he's a loose unit. Anyway, he's

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Speaker 4: recently mastered the art of stealing an extra thing from

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Speaker 4: the toy store every time we go there. Then I

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Speaker 4: found out that it's in my wife's past. As a kid,

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Speaker 4: she used to steal things from kids' houses that she

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Speaker 4: played at. Is this a habit kids around that age

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Speaker 4: get into.

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Speaker 6: All right, particularly four year old boys.

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Speaker 5: So what we know, girls are a little more savvy,

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Speaker 5: So this is a bit more unique to for itased

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Speaker 5: something they really really want, and then you say that,

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Speaker 5: you know, we don't take other people's stuff because that's stealing.

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Speaker 5: There are two different conflicting thoughts he may have in

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Speaker 5: his mind. He can only hold one in that impulse

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Speaker 5: to have it is just simply stronger because he is four, right, right,

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Speaker 5: he's four, and he's not eight, and he's not six.

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Speaker 5: And no matter how many times you say it every

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Speaker 5: now and then, the impulse to have stuff, which includes

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Speaker 5: one of my boys forever cutting the back of any

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Speaker 5: choky Chips bags in the pantry, eating them, or crop

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Speaker 5: the packet up so I thought it was, or eating

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Speaker 5: the ice cream, and I'd come home sometimes and the

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Speaker 5: spoon was still in the ice cream as I'm putting

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Speaker 5: the frozen peas in the freezer. And I'd go down,

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Speaker 5: no matter what age, and say, why did I come

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Speaker 5: home a bit quick? And he goes, oh, yeah, you did.

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Speaker 6: You know what I mean? So it's not an evil,

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Speaker 6: bad human what it is.

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Speaker 5: Keep reminding him again that there are times if there

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Speaker 5: is something you want.

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Speaker 6: Then we've got to work out a way that you

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Speaker 6: can do something.

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Speaker 5: Money achieve, right, and that's a goal, and then it's

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Speaker 5: done in a way, that's okay, But I think hands up,

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Speaker 5: lots of will sneak money out of the parents wallets

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Speaker 5: and things in the old days when they actually had money.

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Speaker 2: In it, Maggie, taking the kids out of the comfort zone.

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Speaker 2: I'm finding it hard. In my own mention. I'm trying

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Speaker 2: to teach both both boys to get motivated to do things.

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Speaker 2: If there is an option of actually putting yourself out

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Speaker 2: there and getting up in front of the class and speaking,

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Speaker 2: or not doing it at all, they're taking the easy option,

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Speaker 2: whether it comes to sport, it comes to everything.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to teach them now.

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Speaker 2: That you need to take risks, that you need to

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Speaker 2: put yourself out there.

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Speaker 1: How do I do that, Maggie, because I'm confused.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, So one of the things, and that really

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Speaker 5: just sounds like a classic anxiety thing just in case

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Speaker 5: I fail. No. One of the things that we know

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Speaker 5: for boys and men is that they take an external

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Speaker 5: experience and event with which they aim and set themselves

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Speaker 5: up for so that if they win or they do well,

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Speaker 5: they give themselves self worth.

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Speaker 6: Right, no one else can give that to a boy.

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Speaker 5: So what they've seen is they've looked out there and

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Speaker 5: thought chances of this bank going really well aren't really good.

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Speaker 6: So rather than do it and fail, I just won't

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Speaker 6: do it. Got it.

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Speaker 5: So one of the things that really has helped with

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Speaker 5: a lot of boys is, and I know it sounds weird,

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Speaker 5: but I did it in my classrooms are my home,

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Speaker 5: is that we actually pretend shut your eyes and pretend

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Speaker 5: you've already done it a couple of times in your head.

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Speaker 5: And quite often what that does it shifts that little

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Speaker 5: video they're running in their head of me failing and

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Speaker 5: replaces it with one of me succeeding. So again, even

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Speaker 5: by growing men at times, you know, when they were

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Speaker 5: sort of looking for jobs in their early twenties and

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Speaker 5: I say, you know, have you visualized it? They go, Mum,

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Speaker 5: you and your wally, that's just stupid stuff, block really,

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Speaker 5: But I actually found that most of them are really

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Speaker 5: very much about you know. And the one thing that

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Speaker 5: we have to teach is a whole chapter is letting

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Speaker 5: our boys lose without being ashamed of who they are,

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Speaker 5: because you know in the man box that seriously you're weak,

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Speaker 5: there's something wrong with you. You're supposed to succeed. All

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Speaker 5: of that sort of stuff. So having moments where they

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Speaker 5: fail off and get back up really quick, you will

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Speaker 5: also help them, So it's.

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Speaker 6: Endless endless card games.

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Speaker 5: Go back to your old thoughts and crosses, because the

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Speaker 5: more frequently they lose.

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Speaker 6: The better they get it losing and getting on.

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Speaker 5: I think the world has really messed a lot of

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Speaker 5: our kids up by changing the rules of past the parcel.

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Speaker 6: You know, there should only be one prize, one price.

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Speaker 6: Suck it up when we when yeah, we've.

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Speaker 5: Just got four goes at it. So we teach all

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Speaker 5: of you five year olds. Yep, this is what.

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Speaker 6: Disappointment feels like. There's always another game.

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Speaker 4: That's a really good point because it's almost like kids

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Speaker 4: are so spoilt these days. You know, with large families

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Speaker 4: is a gift every time grandparents come around at the

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Speaker 4: minute they can't have what they want. It's a dummy spin.

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Speaker 2: Imagine what it's like with independence and they leave home

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Speaker 2: and they're like, oh waight up, I haven't got mum

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Speaker 2: and dad to back me up.

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Speaker 4: An are you saying that that's the problem we're seeing

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Speaker 4: with current generations of kids thinking they deserve and should

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Speaker 4: have everything they want.

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Speaker 6: It can be.

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Speaker 5: But also I think it's we've shifted from that paradigm

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Speaker 5: when parenting was really severe and there was punishment and

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Speaker 5: you know, not seen and not heard.

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Speaker 6: It's a place where.

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Speaker 5: We need to be more spectful and caring and compassion,

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Speaker 5: which is good, but what we've kind of done is

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Speaker 5: we're almost too loving. So I want to protect them

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Speaker 5: from any disappointment or setback. So resilience is my kind

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Speaker 5: of passionate life. And what I know is that you know,

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Speaker 5: there are times that kids actually need to take their

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Speaker 5: own bag into the classroom.

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Speaker 6: And one of the gifts that's come from the pandemic.

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Speaker 5: Is that dropping our kids, our littler kids at the

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Speaker 5: front gate and making them go in. All the teachers

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Speaker 5: are telling us how amazingly resilient they are because the

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Speaker 5: actually didn't need Mum or dad in there, but everyone

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Speaker 5: thought we needed to, and we thought that's what good

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Speaker 5: parents need to do. So so much of the protecting

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Speaker 5: them is coming from love, but in actual fact, every

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Speaker 5: now and then, we need all of our children to

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Speaker 5: sit in disappointment, to sit in failure and know that

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Speaker 5: we can recover from it, which is a huge chapter

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Speaker 5: in there, because you know there are times that you

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Speaker 5: know the failure scars them and they will And that's

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Speaker 5: really what sometimes happens when they're horizontal on your couch

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Speaker 5: at eighteen and they're done because they're just they'll fail.

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Speaker 7: Would you say the same though around discipline. I mean,

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Speaker 7: it's one of the things I worry about is disciplining

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Speaker 7: my boys when they're so young. You don't want to

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Speaker 7: leave something you know unnoticed or unsaid to them. But

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Speaker 7: at the same time, you don't want to put that negativity.

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Speaker 7: I was reading something on your website that negativity in

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Speaker 7: their head and make them feel like they're wrong when

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Speaker 7: they don't understand it. But how do you not say

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Speaker 7: them though? You can't crush your brother because he's half

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Speaker 7: a size, Like I've got a very big two and

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Speaker 7: a half year old who likes to tackle a fifteen

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Speaker 7: month old, and it's not good.

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Speaker 5: So let's just get one understanding out the road that

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Speaker 5: boys often tend to use physical, physical interactions with which

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Speaker 5: to connect and show others that they love them. Unlike them,

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Speaker 5: they don't say words like girls. So a lot of

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Speaker 5: the slapping, the rolling, the wrestling is actually boys genuinely

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Speaker 5: wanting to play with their brothers.

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Speaker 6: They're jumping off the.

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Speaker 5: Top bunk on their brother is not a deliberate attempt

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Speaker 5: to hurt them. So what we need to you know it.

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Speaker 5: I have three basic rules that you put on your

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Speaker 5: fridge if you've got boys. Try not to hurt yourself,

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Speaker 5: Try not tour anyone else, and try not damage the

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Speaker 5: world around you. So they're going to do that because

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Speaker 5: they are way more impulsive than girls, and they need

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Speaker 5: movement in their life to create dopamine. So when they

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Speaker 5: do jump too hard on their brother, that's a learning

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Speaker 5: moment that comes from what I call natural consequence.

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Speaker 6: So it's hurt and.

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Speaker 5: The brother will cry, and he actually will. He will

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Speaker 5: learn from that because he doesn't want to really hurt

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Speaker 5: his brother. Every now and then they do, but most

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Speaker 5: of the time not, So it's just reminding them all

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Speaker 5: the time.

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Speaker 6: Come back and now remember your choices. You've always got

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Speaker 6: a choice. Just pause if you can. Of course they

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Speaker 6: find that very difficult. But again it's when we punish

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Speaker 6: them for making a choice.

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Speaker 5: They have no idea why they didn't think it through,

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Speaker 5: partly because they haven't got the brain architecture. Then we

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Speaker 5: make them wrong rather than the choice is wrong. So

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Speaker 5: I always talk about the choice you make rather than

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Speaker 5: who you are, because that's that sensitive side of boys

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Speaker 5: that when in adolescence, if they were shamed and punished

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Speaker 5: a lot, then that shame is like a rage inside

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Speaker 5: them at fourteen when the limbic brain grows and it's

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Speaker 5: mostly directed towards themselves, but often they push it out

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Speaker 5: into the world.

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Speaker 1: This is fascinating.

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Speaker 3: We're learning so day here, so much, Sarah.

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Speaker 1: It is from boys to men.

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Speaker 2: We would love to get back in contact with you

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Speaker 2: when Whip and I actually become men.

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Speaker 3: Sarah.

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Speaker 5: They didn't realize that the prefrontal lobe doesn't finish with

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Speaker 5: all that mile and until for girls around twenty two

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Speaker 5: to twenty four, and boys it's twenty seven.

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Speaker 6: Wow, around to eighty two. What about though, fix I

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Speaker 6: still laugh.

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Speaker 7: You said that boys certain things they do, they'll you know,

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Speaker 7: they grow into whereas you look at your husband's and

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Speaker 7: they're still kind of useless.

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Speaker 3: They're still Yeah, I know, Sarah.

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Speaker 6: Guess what.

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Speaker 5: Guess what when you put the genders together and they

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Speaker 5: actually are allowed each other to go to their strengths.

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Speaker 5: We've got great memories, yes, great memory So why do

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Speaker 5: we go off at them when they forget been nice?

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Speaker 3: Was slightly different.

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Speaker 5: What do you know he's actually because he's actually thinking

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Speaker 5: about there's a problem at work, or he's got to

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Speaker 5: rash up.

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Speaker 1: We're going to keep that quiet.

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Speaker 2: Actually jumped off the top bunk onto whipper the other

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Speaker 2: day and Sarah said, you know you can't do that

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Speaker 2: anymore here.

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Speaker 4: But now Maggie's saying, you're learning, so it's okay. I

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Speaker 4: was crying, Maggie at the time because he landed on

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Speaker 4: my rash scrotal.

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Speaker 6: We'd understand all you all need, isn't it.

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Speaker 5: The better we understand, the better we care, and the

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Speaker 5: less separated and disconnected all of us feel, including our

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Speaker 5: confused teen boys.

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Speaker 2: Lovely Maggie, Well, it's so good to see you, mum.

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Speaker 2: It's great to have a catch up. I feel like

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Speaker 2: I'm having a chat. The new book is From Boys

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Speaker 2: to Men. It's out now. Maggie Dent, you are a legend.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming on the show.

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Speaker 6: Thanks guys, Thanks

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Speaker 3: Magg You take care of with nother