1 00:00:05,881 --> 00:00:07,801 Speaker 1: Apploche Production. 2 00:00:14,441 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand I'm Your Host 3 00:00:16,561 --> 00:00:21,761 Speaker 2: Adam Shand. Tim Watson Munroe is Australia's best known criminal psychologist. 4 00:00:22,841 --> 00:00:26,121 Speaker 2: For nearly fifty years, Tim has decoded the minds and 5 00:00:26,241 --> 00:00:29,121 Speaker 2: actions of criminals for the courts and the general public 6 00:00:29,201 --> 00:00:32,961 Speaker 2: through the media. Known as the jail House Shrink, Tim 7 00:00:33,001 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 2: Watson Munroe has spent decades inside Australia's darkest cells. Blessed 8 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,401 Speaker 2: with an inquiring and empathetic mind, Tim gained the trust 9 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,761 Speaker 2: of some of this country's most notorious crooks, working not 10 00:00:45,961 --> 00:00:50,041 Speaker 2: just with criminals, but confronting the very nature of evil itself. 11 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,520 Speaker 2: His work has taken him to the edge of the abyss. 12 00:00:54,001 --> 00:00:56,041 Speaker 2: He looked into the eyes of people who've committed the 13 00:00:56,081 --> 00:01:00,681 Speaker 2: most heinous acts and has calmly, dispassionately explained the motivations 14 00:01:00,721 --> 00:01:04,161 Speaker 2: behind them. He's built a huge following from his media work. 15 00:01:04,481 --> 00:01:07,281 Speaker 2: At the age of seventy two, continues to grace our 16 00:01:07,321 --> 00:01:11,601 Speaker 2: TV screens and our podcast playlists with his calm and 17 00:01:11,681 --> 00:01:15,121 Speaker 2: considered points of view. Tim Watson Monroe continues to be 18 00:01:15,161 --> 00:01:18,681 Speaker 2: one of Australia's most consulted experts on violent offenders with 19 00:01:18,761 --> 00:01:22,881 Speaker 2: more than thirty thousand cases assisted over his career, but 20 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 2: this insight does not come for free. In the nineteen nineties, 21 00:01:26,761 --> 00:01:29,001 Speaker 2: Tim went through his own dark night of the soul. 22 00:01:29,681 --> 00:01:32,401 Speaker 2: As a young psychologist working in New South Wales prisons. 23 00:01:32,721 --> 00:01:35,321 Speaker 2: Tim thought he could change the world, but he didn't 24 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:39,521 Speaker 2: realize how much that world was changing him. He experienced 25 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,281 Speaker 2: what he called in his memoir Dancing with Demons, a 26 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 2: growing cynicism, a gradual rotting of the soul. As his 27 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:52,361 Speaker 2: accomplishments and fame grew, he experienced an escalating hubris. His 28 00:01:52,481 --> 00:01:57,681 Speaker 2: exuberance to succeed paradoxically became his nemesis. In the nineties, 29 00:01:57,681 --> 00:02:00,841 Speaker 2: he lost his way. His life and career no longer 30 00:02:00,881 --> 00:02:03,881 Speaker 2: had any meaning or purpose. He covered that up with 31 00:02:03,921 --> 00:02:07,241 Speaker 2: a raging cocaine habit that all but destroyed his public 32 00:02:07,281 --> 00:02:09,321 Speaker 2: standing when he was caught up in the fall of 33 00:02:09,361 --> 00:02:14,201 Speaker 2: defense lawyer turned coke importer Andrew Fraser Watson. Monroe says 34 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:17,401 Speaker 2: he lost all sense of judgment during a period of 35 00:02:17,561 --> 00:02:21,961 Speaker 2: escalating cocaine news. Tim has rebuilt his career in profile, 36 00:02:22,361 --> 00:02:25,601 Speaker 2: telling the story of his downfall with an unflinching honesty 37 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:29,401 Speaker 2: that offers so much to others in my career. Tim 38 00:02:29,441 --> 00:02:32,921 Speaker 2: has been a generous and thoughtful collaborator, and I'm proud 39 00:02:32,921 --> 00:02:36,201 Speaker 2: to call him a friend. Welcome to real crime, Tim. 40 00:02:36,401 --> 00:02:38,881 Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Adam. That's a very kind introduction. 41 00:02:39,841 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: I hope we can live up to it. Yeah. 42 00:02:41,561 --> 00:02:42,881 Speaker 2: I mean, I was struck when I was reading your 43 00:02:42,881 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 2: memoir again, how honest it was. And I wonder whether 44 00:02:46,561 --> 00:02:48,041 Speaker 2: at the times you just want to put that in 45 00:02:48,081 --> 00:02:50,281 Speaker 2: the past, and people like me are always going to 46 00:02:50,281 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 2: bring up the downfall. But I think it's important to 47 00:02:53,601 --> 00:02:55,961 Speaker 2: understanding your overall journey. I guess there are times when 48 00:02:56,001 --> 00:02:57,561 Speaker 2: you probably say, well, I'd rather just put that in 49 00:02:57,561 --> 00:03:00,041 Speaker 2: the past and move forward in the latter chapters of 50 00:03:00,081 --> 00:03:00,881 Speaker 2: your life and career. 51 00:03:01,561 --> 00:03:04,961 Speaker 1: It's a good question. I'm in. My involvement with Coke 52 00:03:05,121 --> 00:03:07,841 Speaker 1: went on for a couple of years. I received a 53 00:03:07,841 --> 00:03:11,441 Speaker 1: good behavior bond for years and possess. It's twenty six 54 00:03:11,601 --> 00:03:16,161 Speaker 1: years ago now and I was deregistered in June two thousand. 55 00:03:17,001 --> 00:03:21,481 Speaker 1: I regained my practicing c tiicket in late twenty twenty three. 56 00:03:21,561 --> 00:03:24,721 Speaker 1: I resumed practice in early two thousand and four, so 57 00:03:24,761 --> 00:03:28,841 Speaker 1: that's twenty one years ago now, and I assiduously worked 58 00:03:28,841 --> 00:03:33,641 Speaker 1: at restoring my reputation and my professional standing. It's been 59 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,801 Speaker 1: a long journey, but it's nice to be back. I 60 00:03:36,801 --> 00:03:39,281 Speaker 1: think it's an important and relevant part of my career, 61 00:03:39,801 --> 00:03:43,961 Speaker 1: and that's why over the ensuing years I've been happy 62 00:03:44,001 --> 00:03:47,241 Speaker 1: to discuss it in an open and honest manner to 63 00:03:47,281 --> 00:03:51,321 Speaker 1: perhaps explain what happened with me. And more importantly, I 64 00:03:51,321 --> 00:03:54,561 Speaker 1: think I've heard so many times from people who have 65 00:03:54,601 --> 00:03:57,121 Speaker 1: written to me saying, look, thanks for the book. Your 66 00:03:57,121 --> 00:04:00,281 Speaker 1: story is inspirational. You know, it gives me some hope 67 00:04:00,281 --> 00:04:03,321 Speaker 1: that I might be able to recover from my addiction 68 00:04:03,441 --> 00:04:06,321 Speaker 1: and move forward my life. Now, if that helps people, 69 00:04:06,761 --> 00:04:08,401 Speaker 1: I'm proud to be associated with. 70 00:04:08,401 --> 00:04:10,921 Speaker 2: It, because Dancing with Demons is more than just a 71 00:04:10,961 --> 00:04:14,441 Speaker 2: brutally honest memoir. It's a bit of self flagellation as well. 72 00:04:14,761 --> 00:04:16,841 Speaker 2: You're looking at the mistakes that you made in the past. 73 00:04:17,281 --> 00:04:20,281 Speaker 2: But at the same time, I think the reader gets 74 00:04:20,321 --> 00:04:24,281 Speaker 2: a sense of you can't look into this abyss without 75 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:26,481 Speaker 2: taking on some of the darkness that comes with it. 76 00:04:27,361 --> 00:04:29,001 Speaker 1: Well, I think it was an issue said when you 77 00:04:29,041 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: look into the abyss, the abyss stairs back at year, 78 00:04:32,361 --> 00:04:35,801 Speaker 1: and that certainly happened with me. There's no doubt that 79 00:04:36,521 --> 00:04:38,681 Speaker 1: the nature of the work that I was doing at 80 00:04:38,681 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: a very young age. I might add. My first job 81 00:04:41,921 --> 00:04:45,961 Speaker 1: at Paramounta Jail commenced on the fourteenth of August nineteen 82 00:04:46,041 --> 00:04:50,001 Speaker 1: seventy eight, so I had just turned twenty five years. 83 00:04:50,401 --> 00:04:53,121 Speaker 1: It was the worst jarl in Australia by any one's account. 84 00:04:53,601 --> 00:04:57,801 Speaker 1: It was a maximum security, multi recidivus prison and I 85 00:04:57,841 --> 00:04:59,641 Speaker 1: applied for the job. I didn't think I had a 86 00:04:59,681 --> 00:05:02,481 Speaker 1: snowflakes chance in l of getting it, but I hit 87 00:05:02,521 --> 00:05:06,161 Speaker 1: it off with the chief psychologist, Irene Malentto, in her 88 00:05:06,201 --> 00:05:11,081 Speaker 1: own way, a fascinating woman. She spoke twelve languages, highly intelligent. 89 00:05:11,721 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: So there I was Paramount of Jail day one, twenty five, 90 00:05:15,841 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: looking about eighteen, and I can still remember the first 91 00:05:19,401 --> 00:05:22,841 Speaker 1: day I walked through the gates and I was overpowered 92 00:05:22,961 --> 00:05:25,761 Speaker 1: with the smell of light soul. It's a very strong 93 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,121 Speaker 1: anti infection kind of thing, bid luck, debt a. It 94 00:05:29,401 --> 00:05:33,561 Speaker 1: stronger the place wreaked of it, wolf wishlaws from Krim 95 00:05:33,641 --> 00:05:36,681 Speaker 1: saying come to my cl baby, all this sort of stuff. 96 00:05:37,201 --> 00:05:41,841 Speaker 1: And then meeting the prisoner governor, the Parry Duff, who 97 00:05:41,841 --> 00:05:44,161 Speaker 1: became a good friend of mine with the passage of time. 98 00:05:44,761 --> 00:05:47,921 Speaker 1: He was sitting in an office. There was the portrait 99 00:05:47,961 --> 00:05:51,361 Speaker 1: of Queen Elizabeth hung at thirty degrees to the perpendicular, 100 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: and old leather chairs, musty smells, and he said, welcome aboard, son. 101 00:05:58,281 --> 00:06:01,161 Speaker 1: Always remember this. If you can be conned, you can 102 00:06:01,201 --> 00:06:03,961 Speaker 1: be fucked. And I said, thanks a lot, mister Uff, 103 00:06:04,401 --> 00:06:07,481 Speaker 1: and I walked out of his office. Then I went 104 00:06:07,481 --> 00:06:11,841 Speaker 1: across to my office, and I had dressed in levis 105 00:06:11,921 --> 00:06:14,241 Speaker 1: and T shirts because I thought I'd fit in better 106 00:06:14,281 --> 00:06:15,921 Speaker 1: with the crims, you know, rather than a guy in 107 00:06:15,961 --> 00:06:19,041 Speaker 1: a certain of briefcase. The prison officer on the gate 108 00:06:19,081 --> 00:06:21,681 Speaker 1: to the administration block with my office was I said, 109 00:06:22,481 --> 00:06:25,521 Speaker 1: prison psacha, you know. I was full of humorous and pride. 110 00:06:26,041 --> 00:06:28,001 Speaker 1: And he looked at me and he said, he's not here, 111 00:06:28,081 --> 00:06:31,081 Speaker 1: your little dog. You're early come back in half an hour. 112 00:06:31,121 --> 00:06:34,001 Speaker 1: And then it dawned on me that the green T 113 00:06:34,201 --> 00:06:37,201 Speaker 1: shirt I was wearing was exactly the same as the 114 00:06:37,241 --> 00:06:40,201 Speaker 1: green T shirts that the prisoners wore. Now you've got 115 00:06:40,241 --> 00:06:42,241 Speaker 1: to put this in the context of a twenty five 116 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:46,401 Speaker 1: year old who came from a fairly privileged, gentrified background. 117 00:06:46,961 --> 00:06:49,641 Speaker 1: My father was a professor of Physics at Sydney University. 118 00:06:50,241 --> 00:06:53,561 Speaker 1: My mother was an artist. I'd traveled the world when 119 00:06:53,601 --> 00:06:56,401 Speaker 1: he was on sabbatical. Left. One of my babysitters when 120 00:06:56,440 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: I was seven in Berkeley, California, was Einstein's granddaughter. Just 121 00:07:01,001 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: to give you some idea of where I'd come from. 122 00:07:03,921 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: When I applied for the job, people said, don't do 123 00:07:06,001 --> 00:07:09,001 Speaker 1: it, it'll change you. They were right, but I haven't regretted 124 00:07:09,041 --> 00:07:11,441 Speaker 1: anything beyond the drug use. Of course. I've had a 125 00:07:11,441 --> 00:07:13,481 Speaker 1: fabulous career and I'm very grateful for it. 126 00:07:14,441 --> 00:07:17,241 Speaker 2: You sought out to change the prison itself. You got 127 00:07:17,281 --> 00:07:20,881 Speaker 2: involved in prisoner reform groups and hit the heavy heights 128 00:07:20,881 --> 00:07:22,801 Speaker 2: of going on the Mike Walshow on Channel nine with 129 00:07:22,841 --> 00:07:26,881 Speaker 2: hardened criminals and yourself, I mean talk about idealistic and futuristic. 130 00:07:28,041 --> 00:07:30,561 Speaker 1: It was a great time for me and I had 131 00:07:30,561 --> 00:07:34,281 Speaker 1: the good fortune to be employed in the wake of 132 00:07:34,361 --> 00:07:38,481 Speaker 1: the Nagal Royal Commission that had developed as a consequence 133 00:07:38,521 --> 00:07:42,441 Speaker 1: of a rit at Bathist Jail and it wascathing of 134 00:07:42,481 --> 00:07:46,801 Speaker 1: the administration of prisons in New South Wales. They appointed 135 00:07:46,801 --> 00:07:50,721 Speaker 1: a board of commissioners, including the late Professor Toney Vincent. 136 00:07:50,761 --> 00:07:55,161 Speaker 1: He was a sociologist The whole focus then was reformation, 137 00:07:55,761 --> 00:08:00,001 Speaker 1: opening up the jails and trying to develop programs. Now 138 00:08:00,081 --> 00:08:03,361 Speaker 1: these days in prison throughout certainly New South Wales and Victoria, 139 00:08:03,761 --> 00:08:07,801 Speaker 1: there's lots of available for prisoners, but they didn't exist then. 140 00:08:07,961 --> 00:08:11,601 Speaker 1: So part of my charter was to do that, and 141 00:08:11,961 --> 00:08:14,921 Speaker 1: Paramatta was the ideal facility for it because it was 142 00:08:15,481 --> 00:08:18,881 Speaker 1: an end of the line jail. Everyone in Paramatta had 143 00:08:18,881 --> 00:08:21,601 Speaker 1: no other options. They weren't going anywhere for a long time. 144 00:08:22,001 --> 00:08:24,481 Speaker 1: I think the average sentence was ten to fifteen years. 145 00:08:24,521 --> 00:08:27,441 Speaker 1: A lot of life was for murder, robbers and so on. 146 00:08:27,561 --> 00:08:31,801 Speaker 1: So I came in just as they were establishing the 147 00:08:31,841 --> 00:08:35,241 Speaker 1: so called Day in Jail program, which was based on 148 00:08:35,321 --> 00:08:40,001 Speaker 1: the Scared Straight program in Rahway Jail, New Jersey in 149 00:08:40,041 --> 00:08:43,001 Speaker 1: the States, but we tweaked it a bit and made 150 00:08:43,001 --> 00:08:47,321 Speaker 1: it an insight learning program. So what happened was referrals. 151 00:08:47,321 --> 00:08:51,681 Speaker 1: They were juvenile offenders who, if it were not for 152 00:08:51,721 --> 00:08:54,601 Speaker 1: this program, would certainly be going to jail, and they 153 00:08:54,641 --> 00:08:57,321 Speaker 1: were sent to prison for one day. They spent the 154 00:08:57,361 --> 00:09:01,881 Speaker 1: morning as a prisoner wood cleaning locks, polishing floors, locked 155 00:09:01,961 --> 00:09:04,841 Speaker 1: up in their cell for lunch. It was just gruel. 156 00:09:05,241 --> 00:09:07,921 Speaker 1: It was atrocious and then in the afternoon they would 157 00:09:07,961 --> 00:09:12,121 Speaker 1: be counseled by two to four prisoners who had been 158 00:09:12,161 --> 00:09:16,001 Speaker 1: trained in basic counseling. I would sit in on those sessions. 159 00:09:16,481 --> 00:09:19,921 Speaker 1: It was a highly successful program. It was investigated by 160 00:09:19,961 --> 00:09:22,601 Speaker 1: the New South Wales Bureau of Crime, Statistics and Research 161 00:09:23,321 --> 00:09:25,721 Speaker 1: and it was found on a two year follow up 162 00:09:26,201 --> 00:09:28,761 Speaker 1: sixty percent of these people were not seen in court again. 163 00:09:29,441 --> 00:09:33,201 Speaker 1: So arising from that, inevitably it attracted a lot of press, 164 00:09:33,801 --> 00:09:37,361 Speaker 1: culminating in an invitation to appear with two of the 165 00:09:37,401 --> 00:09:40,641 Speaker 1: prisoners on the Mark Walsh Shire. And for those who 166 00:09:40,721 --> 00:09:43,561 Speaker 1: were old enough, Mark Walsh was the biggest rating show 167 00:09:43,601 --> 00:09:46,521 Speaker 1: in Australia. Really it was Midday Shire. You had the 168 00:09:46,521 --> 00:09:48,281 Speaker 1: blue rind set and all the rest of who had 169 00:09:48,321 --> 00:09:52,041 Speaker 1: watched it. And because Tony Vincent was the commissioner, he 170 00:09:52,201 --> 00:09:54,681 Speaker 1: gave permission for these two crooks to come with me 171 00:09:55,441 --> 00:09:59,241 Speaker 1: under escort the prison officers and a big Ford plane. 172 00:09:59,281 --> 00:10:01,361 Speaker 1: And that was a big deal for these bugs to 173 00:10:01,401 --> 00:10:05,321 Speaker 1: appear on the Mark Walsh program. As it eventuated, Mike 174 00:10:05,401 --> 00:10:08,521 Speaker 1: on the day was ill and the filly in was 175 00:10:08,641 --> 00:10:09,321 Speaker 1: Jimmy Hannon. 176 00:10:09,321 --> 00:10:11,721 Speaker 2: I don't know if you do, you know he washed 177 00:10:11,801 --> 00:10:13,881 Speaker 2: up American Stary came out to a stadia. 178 00:10:13,921 --> 00:10:15,761 Speaker 1: I think yeah, and I think he had commercials for 179 00:10:16,281 --> 00:10:18,841 Speaker 1: toothpaste and that sort of stuff, and he hadn't been 180 00:10:18,881 --> 00:10:23,081 Speaker 1: properly brief So we walked through the program. It was 181 00:10:23,241 --> 00:10:25,441 Speaker 1: just when video stuff was coming out, so we had 182 00:10:25,481 --> 00:10:28,801 Speaker 1: a video clip of the jail and the counseling and 183 00:10:28,841 --> 00:10:32,201 Speaker 1: that went on national TV. And then to conclude, Jimmy 184 00:10:32,241 --> 00:10:35,361 Speaker 1: went around us and he said, well, Ray, why are 185 00:10:35,401 --> 00:10:38,641 Speaker 1: you in prison. He said, well, I murdered my wife 186 00:10:38,681 --> 00:10:40,721 Speaker 1: and I'm really sorry about it and I'm doing life. 187 00:10:41,641 --> 00:10:44,561 Speaker 1: There was another guy, Arthur Brown, and he said, well, Arthur, 188 00:10:45,681 --> 00:10:47,961 Speaker 1: what brought you to jail? And he said, I did 189 00:10:48,001 --> 00:10:50,961 Speaker 1: all these armed robberies and I'm doing twenty or a fourteen. 190 00:10:51,721 --> 00:10:53,321 Speaker 1: And then he looked at me and I was dressed, 191 00:10:53,361 --> 00:10:55,881 Speaker 1: you know, again in leve ours and I might have 192 00:10:55,881 --> 00:10:58,761 Speaker 1: had a sports checking on. And he said, Tim what 193 00:10:58,961 --> 00:11:03,801 Speaker 1: brought you into prison? Right? And I said, I'm the psychologist. Jimmy, well, 194 00:11:03,881 --> 00:11:06,721 Speaker 1: you know, he went bright red and they cut to 195 00:11:06,721 --> 00:11:08,601 Speaker 1: an ad break and that was that. But you know, 196 00:11:08,761 --> 00:11:12,241 Speaker 1: they were healthy and funny times. In many ways, I. 197 00:11:12,161 --> 00:11:14,481 Speaker 2: Think he needed to change or retire somewhat to be 198 00:11:14,681 --> 00:11:16,521 Speaker 2: distinguished from the prisoner by the sounds of them. 199 00:11:16,601 --> 00:11:19,881 Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't think about that, and I liked to 200 00:11:19,921 --> 00:11:23,001 Speaker 1: be I guess true to myself. I thought that he 201 00:11:23,041 --> 00:11:25,921 Speaker 1: had been properly proved, No doubt Mike Walsh would have been. 202 00:11:26,041 --> 00:11:30,321 Speaker 1: But it rated well, The program went very well. It 203 00:11:30,361 --> 00:11:33,521 Speaker 1: eventually shut down, as did a number of the other programs. 204 00:11:33,561 --> 00:11:36,961 Speaker 1: I said of a drug rehab program in Paramount of Jail, 205 00:11:37,681 --> 00:11:42,001 Speaker 1: and I was involving what was called the Concert Committee, 206 00:11:42,361 --> 00:11:44,121 Speaker 1: which was run by a blake by the name of 207 00:11:44,161 --> 00:11:47,281 Speaker 1: George Crawfort, a very heavy crook. You may remember the 208 00:11:47,361 --> 00:11:50,161 Speaker 1: name from two times in Sydney. But he had a 209 00:11:50,161 --> 00:11:53,001 Speaker 1: lot of talent, and he had connections with the rock 210 00:11:53,041 --> 00:11:57,441 Speaker 1: and roll industry, and long story short, he persuaded, with 211 00:11:57,601 --> 00:12:00,681 Speaker 1: the sort of impromat of the government a number of 212 00:12:00,761 --> 00:12:04,081 Speaker 1: top rating rock and roll bands in the seventies. Today 213 00:12:04,201 --> 00:12:08,761 Speaker 1: nate a Sunday afternoon on four consecutive Sunday afternoons as 214 00:12:08,761 --> 00:12:12,841 Speaker 1: a record. We had big bands there. And Cold Chisel 215 00:12:12,961 --> 00:12:15,481 Speaker 1: wrote a song about their experience of Paramount a Jar 216 00:12:16,161 --> 00:12:18,721 Speaker 1: standing on the outside looking in. It was one of 217 00:12:18,721 --> 00:12:22,281 Speaker 1: them that's on the East album and what happened with 218 00:12:22,521 --> 00:12:26,361 Speaker 1: that program. All the acts were recorded, they cut an 219 00:12:26,361 --> 00:12:31,601 Speaker 1: album called Canned Rock, and all the proceeds the royalties 220 00:12:31,641 --> 00:12:34,841 Speaker 1: were donated by the artists to the International Year of 221 00:12:34,881 --> 00:12:37,961 Speaker 1: the Child. So all this was a big deal, you know. 222 00:12:38,241 --> 00:12:40,921 Speaker 1: And for a while PARAMOUNTA was a bit like a 223 00:12:41,001 --> 00:12:43,881 Speaker 1: universe he CAAs you know, you had crooks running around 224 00:12:43,881 --> 00:12:47,201 Speaker 1: with clipboards and on the phone and you know, routing 225 00:12:47,281 --> 00:12:50,641 Speaker 1: the telephone. But in the three years that I was there, 226 00:12:50,681 --> 00:12:52,841 Speaker 1: I reckon I had ten years worth of experience. It 227 00:12:52,921 --> 00:12:53,641 Speaker 1: was invailuable. 228 00:12:54,601 --> 00:12:58,081 Speaker 2: Such a fragile thing, this public mood for reform, because 229 00:12:58,121 --> 00:13:01,281 Speaker 2: it only took a botched prison escape and a riot 230 00:13:02,081 --> 00:13:05,881 Speaker 2: for the dispensation to end. Think think, we've never really 231 00:13:05,921 --> 00:13:07,801 Speaker 2: seen it come back. There was a flowering of that 232 00:13:07,841 --> 00:13:10,601 Speaker 2: in different parts of the country. But these days there 233 00:13:10,641 --> 00:13:14,241 Speaker 2: is a hard attitude to prisons and prisoners. They're simply 234 00:13:14,241 --> 00:13:16,761 Speaker 2: there to be punished, keeping there as long as we 235 00:13:16,841 --> 00:13:20,681 Speaker 2: possibly can. But of course the misnomer is because all 236 00:13:20,721 --> 00:13:24,161 Speaker 2: these people eventually come out and then their's society's problems again. 237 00:13:24,201 --> 00:13:26,801 Speaker 2: So you could see the value of treating them as 238 00:13:26,841 --> 00:13:27,921 Speaker 2: human beings. 239 00:13:28,321 --> 00:13:32,321 Speaker 1: Yes, and to demonstrate that notwithstanding their hinous crimes, and 240 00:13:32,361 --> 00:13:35,961 Speaker 1: some of them were hinous crimes. They were individuals who 241 00:13:36,081 --> 00:13:38,321 Speaker 1: in their own right had a lot of talent. The 242 00:13:38,361 --> 00:13:41,641 Speaker 1: Botch prisoner escape you mentioned was a tunnel that was 243 00:13:41,721 --> 00:13:45,521 Speaker 1: being dug under the walls of Paramount Agile and they 244 00:13:45,561 --> 00:13:49,041 Speaker 1: were caught literally at one minute to midnight. They heard 245 00:13:49,041 --> 00:13:51,681 Speaker 1: about it because one of the prisoners had wrung his 246 00:13:51,801 --> 00:13:55,201 Speaker 1: mother and he had said, look, we need a few 247 00:13:55,241 --> 00:13:57,761 Speaker 1: more places at the dinner table tomorrow night because I'll 248 00:13:57,801 --> 00:14:00,281 Speaker 1: be there with some of them mates. Well she freaked out, 249 00:14:00,401 --> 00:14:03,481 Speaker 1: rang the garvernor. They did a huge search of everywhere 250 00:14:04,121 --> 00:14:06,601 Speaker 1: and there was this handler went through the catacombs of 251 00:14:06,601 --> 00:14:09,921 Speaker 1: the old jail under the wall. They had keys to 252 00:14:10,001 --> 00:14:11,961 Speaker 1: let people out and they are ready to go. If 253 00:14:12,001 --> 00:14:14,521 Speaker 1: that had happened, I think inevitably it would have brought 254 00:14:14,561 --> 00:14:18,081 Speaker 1: down the government because such was the rage. I think 255 00:14:18,161 --> 00:14:20,761 Speaker 1: your comments right. You know, in many ways, we are 256 00:14:20,841 --> 00:14:24,721 Speaker 1: all tired of crime, particularly in Melbourne at the moment. 257 00:14:24,761 --> 00:14:27,641 Speaker 1: It's a very topical issue in terms of youth crime 258 00:14:27,681 --> 00:14:29,601 Speaker 1: and all the rest of it, and I think there 259 00:14:29,641 --> 00:14:33,321 Speaker 1: needs to be consequences for that. But that said, the 260 00:14:33,401 --> 00:14:36,201 Speaker 1: spirit of reform and the recognition of the need for 261 00:14:36,281 --> 00:14:40,561 Speaker 1: treatment of prisoners has prevailed and has grown, so I 262 00:14:40,641 --> 00:14:42,441 Speaker 1: do a lot of work. Most of my work now 263 00:14:42,601 --> 00:14:45,201 Speaker 1: is through New South Wales. I do a bit still 264 00:14:45,241 --> 00:14:48,081 Speaker 1: in Melbourne, but I speak to prisoners and I say, 265 00:14:48,121 --> 00:14:51,121 Speaker 1: what are you doing? There's all these drug and alcohol programs, 266 00:14:51,161 --> 00:14:54,881 Speaker 1: anger management programs. When I started in the system, I 267 00:14:54,961 --> 00:14:59,081 Speaker 1: think in New South Wales it was probably twenty psychologists statewide. 268 00:14:59,841 --> 00:15:02,681 Speaker 1: I spoke to a friend of mine, doctor Nathan Brooks, 269 00:15:02,681 --> 00:15:05,961 Speaker 1: who was over from New Zealand recently. He's the police 270 00:15:06,001 --> 00:15:08,721 Speaker 1: psychologist there own, and he said he thought there was 271 00:15:08,761 --> 00:15:11,561 Speaker 1: an excess of about two hundred psychologists now working in 272 00:15:11,561 --> 00:15:15,121 Speaker 1: the system. So I think there is a recognition on 273 00:15:15,201 --> 00:15:18,801 Speaker 1: your point, Adam, that if you make it too hard, 274 00:15:18,961 --> 00:15:21,801 Speaker 1: if you don't give them treatment, if you don't address 275 00:15:21,801 --> 00:15:25,721 Speaker 1: the underlying drivers of their addiction, ultimately most of them 276 00:15:25,761 --> 00:15:27,721 Speaker 1: come out. You've got a bigger problem on your hands. 277 00:15:28,041 --> 00:15:30,481 Speaker 2: To your point, the prisoner that gave away the game 278 00:15:30,641 --> 00:15:33,081 Speaker 2: on that tunneling exercise and called his mother and said, 279 00:15:33,121 --> 00:15:35,921 Speaker 2: you know, I'll be home for dinner was Michael Murphy, 280 00:15:35,961 --> 00:15:38,521 Speaker 2: who left jail and became part of the Henus crew 281 00:15:38,561 --> 00:15:40,401 Speaker 2: that murdered nurse Anita Cobby. 282 00:15:40,561 --> 00:15:41,361 Speaker 1: That's quite right. 283 00:15:41,401 --> 00:15:45,241 Speaker 2: And I met Murphy in Long Bay jail after that 284 00:15:45,641 --> 00:15:48,121 Speaker 2: and spent a few hours with him, and he was 285 00:15:48,161 --> 00:15:52,081 Speaker 2: someone who had very little insight into his offending. He 286 00:15:52,241 --> 00:15:55,841 Speaker 2: was probably a true site, very low intelligence, and was 287 00:15:56,961 --> 00:15:59,441 Speaker 2: led by the nose by other people in that gang. 288 00:16:00,441 --> 00:16:02,521 Speaker 2: So there has to be a place where you can 289 00:16:02,561 --> 00:16:05,961 Speaker 2: put those sort of people permanently with them a lot. 290 00:16:06,001 --> 00:16:08,801 Speaker 2: But what surprised me when you were talking in your book, 291 00:16:08,801 --> 00:16:11,481 Speaker 2: you're talking about there's very few that you would lock 292 00:16:11,601 --> 00:16:15,441 Speaker 2: up in perpetuity. What percentage of the crooks that you 293 00:16:15,561 --> 00:16:17,801 Speaker 2: met should be in jail forever. 294 00:16:18,201 --> 00:16:22,921 Speaker 1: Well, Murphy's won and his brother. That was a horrendous crime, 295 00:16:23,321 --> 00:16:26,681 Speaker 1: and I don't want to alarm your listeners, but it 296 00:16:26,761 --> 00:16:29,201 Speaker 1: really was. It's still considered, I think, one of the 297 00:16:29,201 --> 00:16:32,721 Speaker 1: worst crimes. I didn't really know Murphy. He was in 298 00:16:32,761 --> 00:16:36,281 Speaker 1: Paramounta for a while, but he wasn't a standout crook, 299 00:16:36,841 --> 00:16:40,121 Speaker 1: and his involvement in the tunnel came at really the 300 00:16:40,121 --> 00:16:43,921 Speaker 1: eleventh hour where he said to these heavy crooks, blugs 301 00:16:44,001 --> 00:16:48,001 Speaker 1: like Laughlin for example, who was a murderer, that if 302 00:16:48,041 --> 00:16:50,841 Speaker 1: he was not involved, he'd blow the whistle on it. 303 00:16:51,241 --> 00:16:53,161 Speaker 1: And so they brought him in at the last minute, 304 00:16:53,281 --> 00:16:55,601 Speaker 1: and then he rang Mum and the rest is history, 305 00:16:55,801 --> 00:16:58,801 Speaker 1: Thank goodness, would have in a terrible situation. 306 00:16:59,601 --> 00:17:04,921 Speaker 2: Yes, you experienced over time a growing cynicism. And I 307 00:17:05,281 --> 00:17:07,681 Speaker 2: find this personally interesting because my dad was a forensic 308 00:17:07,681 --> 00:17:10,961 Speaker 2: psychiatrist and attended most of the jails that you worked in. 309 00:17:11,041 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 2: I remember when we'd got on the weekends to our 310 00:17:13,801 --> 00:17:15,961 Speaker 2: little farm up in the mountains and he'd had to 311 00:17:16,001 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 2: go via Paramatta or Long Bay jail, and we'd sit 312 00:17:19,041 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 2: in the car and he'd go in there for forms 313 00:17:20,761 --> 00:17:22,521 Speaker 2: an hour, an hour and a half, and he would 314 00:17:22,521 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 2: never talk about what he did. And I grew up 315 00:17:25,001 --> 00:17:27,561 Speaker 2: with this sense of that's what Dad did behind the walls, 316 00:17:28,001 --> 00:17:31,721 Speaker 2: and I always wondered, I guess now, particularly what impact 317 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,561 Speaker 2: that had on him, because he had a very strong facade. 318 00:17:35,561 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 2: It was built of oak, and I think you had 319 00:17:37,761 --> 00:17:40,041 Speaker 2: that as well, and I think over time you got 320 00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 2: in touch with that process in your life where you 321 00:17:44,801 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 2: had to deal with this coarsening, if you like, of 322 00:17:47,041 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 2: your moral health. 323 00:17:48,761 --> 00:17:53,361 Speaker 1: Probably more my mental health rather than my moral health. Obviously, 324 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,081 Speaker 1: when I was using drugs, I crossed the rubicon, and 325 00:17:57,321 --> 00:18:00,241 Speaker 1: I've done a million mere kulpers On that I regret it, 326 00:18:00,281 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 1: but it's a long time ago, but it certainly impacted 327 00:18:03,761 --> 00:18:07,961 Speaker 1: on my mental health. I didn't really recognize it though, 328 00:18:09,041 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 1: until after the drug stuff. I started seeing a psychiatrist 329 00:18:12,801 --> 00:18:16,481 Speaker 1: to treat my depression and we kind of unpeeled all 330 00:18:16,481 --> 00:18:20,801 Speaker 1: of that and unpacked it, and I came to the 331 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,521 Speaker 1: insight that really the turning point for me in terms 332 00:18:23,521 --> 00:18:26,441 Speaker 1: of all those issues that you've described. But the catalyst 333 00:18:26,521 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 1: really was my involvement with the Hotle Street massacre. I 334 00:18:30,721 --> 00:18:34,561 Speaker 1: assessed Julian Knight. I was thirty four years of age then, 335 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:39,561 Speaker 1: so still very young and probably too immature to have 336 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 1: a case like that placed on my table, but I 337 00:18:42,481 --> 00:18:44,561 Speaker 1: took it on with great relish. 338 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 2: For those outside of Victoria or Australia, Julian Knight was 339 00:18:48,521 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 2: the young man who decided to take weapons in Hoddle 340 00:18:51,721 --> 00:18:55,321 Speaker 2: Street near the city and killed seven and wounded nineteen people. 341 00:18:55,921 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 2: He's still in jail now and he's never to be released. 342 00:18:59,120 --> 00:19:00,961 Speaker 2: It's a good example of what we're talking about here. 343 00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 2: But you saw him fresh. 344 00:19:02,761 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 1: I think it was a week or two, Within a 345 00:19:04,921 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: few weeks, I think it was. The offense occurred in 346 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: August eighty seven, and i'd certainly seen him by the 347 00:19:11,801 --> 00:19:15,521 Speaker 1: first week or so of September. I can't remember precisely, 348 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:19,241 Speaker 1: but I certainly saw him fresh and I went out 349 00:19:19,281 --> 00:19:21,801 Speaker 1: to the old Pendridge Jail and he was in the 350 00:19:21,801 --> 00:19:25,120 Speaker 1: hospital there. I didn't know what to expect, whether this 351 00:19:25,201 --> 00:19:28,360 Speaker 1: guy was going to be a raging psychopathic lunatic or what. 352 00:19:28,481 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: But he was incredibly respectful, humble, and I think at 353 00:19:32,041 --> 00:19:37,160 Speaker 1: that stage in shock. But that case, I was young, 354 00:19:37,360 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: I was exuberant. I became immersed in it and it 355 00:19:41,201 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 1: ultimately had an effect on me, but I didn't recognize it, 356 00:19:44,761 --> 00:19:50,281 Speaker 1: as I say, until years later when I faced mine 357 00:19:50,321 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 1: a year at my professional and that year, if I 358 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: could put it that way, and at that time, I 359 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,521 Speaker 1: was full of hubris you mentioned here. So I had 360 00:19:59,561 --> 00:20:02,001 Speaker 1: all the big cases. I was young, I had a 361 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,321 Speaker 1: high profile. I was considered to be very sick success 362 00:20:05,521 --> 00:20:09,360 Speaker 1: for I was the National Chairman of the Forensic College 363 00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:13,241 Speaker 1: of the Australian Psychological Society. I was a visiting fellow 364 00:20:13,241 --> 00:20:16,441 Speaker 1: at Melbourne University, where I'd sat on a board which 365 00:20:16,521 --> 00:20:20,481 Speaker 1: had put together the first professional doctorate in Australia for 366 00:20:20,481 --> 00:20:24,120 Speaker 1: forensic psychologists and then I lectured as a visiting fellow 367 00:20:24,201 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 1: in the assessment of offenders. You know, so I just 368 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:31,721 Speaker 1: thought I was invincible and immaturity and cloud at judgment 369 00:20:32,360 --> 00:20:34,680 Speaker 1: can lead to very bad decisions. 370 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:40,120 Speaker 2: But also the cumulative effect of the brutality violence, the 371 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 2: images that stayed with you. I know, as you think 372 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 2: about Julia Knight, I'm sure you can recall the crime 373 00:20:45,961 --> 00:20:48,721 Speaker 2: scene pictures that you were shown of the victims. 374 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,481 Speaker 1: Well, that's true. I blocked them out and I've processed it. 375 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,481 Speaker 1: I mean, we're now talking what thirty eight years ago, 376 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,841 Speaker 1: But you can't unsee this stuff. You can't unhear it. 377 00:21:01,321 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: I must say, though, in terms of my interactions with 378 00:21:04,321 --> 00:21:07,721 Speaker 1: Julian Night, he has always been very respectful. I've never 379 00:21:07,761 --> 00:21:12,001 Speaker 1: felt any sort of anger or antipathy from him. He's 380 00:21:12,001 --> 00:21:14,361 Speaker 1: had a hard road. Some would say he deserves it. 381 00:21:14,801 --> 00:21:18,881 Speaker 1: I note recently he's been transferred to Loden Prison, which 382 00:21:18,921 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 1: is out of Castlemaine. It's a medium security jail that 383 00:21:22,120 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 1: reflects some progress, but as you would be aware, I 384 00:21:25,201 --> 00:21:27,761 Speaker 1: think it was an apthion government packed past, an act 385 00:21:28,481 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: colloquially described as the Julian Night Act, which says that 386 00:21:32,241 --> 00:21:34,801 Speaker 1: he can't be released until he's too old or considered 387 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: too infirm to be a threat to the Australian community. 388 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:40,561 Speaker 1: So that's where it is with him. 389 00:21:41,561 --> 00:21:43,721 Speaker 2: Do you recall in your book, I think you say 390 00:21:43,761 --> 00:21:46,281 Speaker 2: that he is somebody that could be released. 391 00:21:47,561 --> 00:21:51,081 Speaker 1: Well, yes, but with those caveats you see the issue 392 00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:54,360 Speaker 1: with Julian. He's not had a lot of treatment along 393 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 1: the way, and until this reason transferred to Loden, he 394 00:21:58,721 --> 00:22:02,601 Speaker 1: has spent effectively thirty seven thirty eight years in maximum 395 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,401 Speaker 1: security jail. He's a highly intelligence and black I think 396 00:22:06,441 --> 00:22:08,561 Speaker 1: the best job he's had in prison, as he told me, 397 00:22:09,041 --> 00:22:12,681 Speaker 1: was sorting nuts and bolts. He was wanting more. Although 398 00:22:12,721 --> 00:22:15,281 Speaker 1: I think he undertook a degree. He did a university degree. 399 00:22:15,961 --> 00:22:18,521 Speaker 1: He was declared of vexatious litigant did he may be 400 00:22:18,681 --> 00:22:21,761 Speaker 1: were by the Supreme Court of Victoria that he was 401 00:22:21,801 --> 00:22:25,801 Speaker 1: really introducing and initiating actions to try and get a 402 00:22:25,801 --> 00:22:29,400 Speaker 1: better deal in prison. But he became, in the eyes 403 00:22:29,441 --> 00:22:30,961 Speaker 1: of many, a big pain in the ass. 404 00:22:31,360 --> 00:22:33,961 Speaker 2: I would say Julian Knight tried to con you in 405 00:22:34,001 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 2: your early discussions with him. He talked about being in 406 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,201 Speaker 2: a delusional state where he believed that there were these 407 00:22:39,201 --> 00:22:42,241 Speaker 2: shadowy forces who were attacking, and that it was him 408 00:22:42,281 --> 00:22:45,641 Speaker 2: and him alone that could take up arms, and that's 409 00:22:45,681 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 2: what motivated him. And he thought the even the police 410 00:22:48,120 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 2: helicopter was paratroopers coming in to get him, which was 411 00:22:51,241 --> 00:22:53,041 Speaker 2: just a whole bunch of eron bullshit, wasn't it. 412 00:22:53,360 --> 00:22:56,120 Speaker 1: Well, that was part of it. He didn't calm me 413 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,681 Speaker 1: because nobody believed him, right, but that was tried to well, 414 00:22:59,721 --> 00:23:02,321 Speaker 1: he was putting it up as one possibility. I was 415 00:23:02,360 --> 00:23:05,801 Speaker 1: retained with a forensics of car for a Stockton David Simon, 416 00:23:06,281 --> 00:23:10,281 Speaker 1: a great mate who tragically died in When Did He Die? 417 00:23:10,281 --> 00:23:14,281 Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety nine Doctor Kenneth Byrne and the late 418 00:23:14,441 --> 00:23:19,921 Speaker 1: doctor Alan Bartholomew, who was the Crown Psychiatrist also evaluated him. 419 00:23:20,041 --> 00:23:22,281 Speaker 2: Famous Penrick Prison Chicatris as well. 420 00:23:22,481 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, he was. Alan was an interesting guy who was 421 00:23:25,481 --> 00:23:30,561 Speaker 1: well read and I think like your father who as 422 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,281 Speaker 1: I understand that your paternal uncle was a QC right 423 00:23:33,321 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 1: and they were identical twins, obviously, both brilliant men. Urban 424 00:23:37,961 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 1: myth all legend had it that Allan's brother was a 425 00:23:40,441 --> 00:23:43,120 Speaker 1: professor of law, and I'm not sure if he was 426 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:48,360 Speaker 1: a twin, but Alan Bartholomew's understanding the law was second 427 00:23:48,441 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: to none. It was extraordinary. But I digress. All of 428 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,801 Speaker 1: us came to the same opinion that Nike did not 429 00:23:54,921 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 1: have a mental state defense available to him. He was 430 00:23:58,201 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: not psychotic. The delusions which were described were not accepted 431 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:07,001 Speaker 1: as a mental state defense. He ultimately pleaded guilty. There 432 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 1: was no trial, and he maintains it in coming to 433 00:24:12,241 --> 00:24:15,120 Speaker 1: an arrangement with the Crown and the government, who was 434 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,321 Speaker 1: more or less told that he would get laugh with 435 00:24:17,360 --> 00:24:19,961 Speaker 1: a minimum of twenty seven years. Well he's now been 436 00:24:20,001 --> 00:24:23,041 Speaker 1: in thirty eight years, and you know he's shaking the 437 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,961 Speaker 1: tree of it trying to get out. But yeah, maybe 438 00:24:26,001 --> 00:24:29,160 Speaker 1: he was trying to Connors. I'll concede that, but it 439 00:24:29,241 --> 00:24:30,041 Speaker 1: wasn't successful. 440 00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 2: Now. But Tholing here from memory, had another contribution to 441 00:24:34,761 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 2: this whole study where he had this theory about extra chromosomes, 442 00:24:39,521 --> 00:24:42,640 Speaker 2: that he had this pilot program in G division. I 443 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,880 Speaker 2: think it was in Penridge, and everyoneted to get in 444 00:24:44,921 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 2: there because you were labrats there and you were being 445 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:50,761 Speaker 2: studied and way better conditions, way better conditions. Do you 446 00:24:50,761 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 2: think there's anything in that sort of stuff in genetics 447 00:24:53,321 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 2: and chromosomes. 448 00:24:54,681 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 1: Or well, I think he was looking at supermls. You know, 449 00:24:57,681 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 1: the X DOUBLEY theory. Certainly there's been a lot of 450 00:25:01,241 --> 00:25:04,481 Speaker 1: study around that. I think to answer you a question, 451 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:09,001 Speaker 1: is badness genetically determined or is it socially engineered? I 452 00:25:09,041 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: think it's a bit of both. I think people can 453 00:25:11,281 --> 00:25:15,201 Speaker 1: be born bad, and if they're raised in a bad 454 00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:18,921 Speaker 1: environment where dad's violent and mum's using drugs and there's 455 00:25:18,961 --> 00:25:22,441 Speaker 1: conflict and so on, that's their social learning, and that's 456 00:25:22,481 --> 00:25:26,241 Speaker 1: the one that they carry forward into adult life. They've 457 00:25:26,281 --> 00:25:30,321 Speaker 1: done interesting studies with identical twins adopted at birth and 458 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,281 Speaker 1: raised in separate household. One household's affluent, the other's not. 459 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,161 Speaker 1: If there's crime there, they both end up as crimps. 460 00:25:37,321 --> 00:25:40,081 Speaker 1: So it's not so much about social learning with those individuals. 461 00:25:40,281 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: I don't think we can say with any precision what 462 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,121 Speaker 1: percentage of what is what. But Hans I Sink, who 463 00:25:46,281 --> 00:25:50,921 Speaker 1: was a fairly controversial figure back in the seventies, he 464 00:25:51,041 --> 00:25:56,721 Speaker 1: reckoned that IQ was probably eighty percent genetically determined and 465 00:25:56,761 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 1: twenty percent socially determined. He said, we don't choose our 466 00:26:00,281 --> 00:26:03,281 Speaker 1: level of intelligence any more than we choose our eye 467 00:26:03,281 --> 00:26:06,801 Speaker 1: colors or height. I guess. As a psychologist, I would 468 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:11,001 Speaker 1: like to think that with positive input, change can occur. 469 00:26:11,120 --> 00:26:14,681 Speaker 1: But there's no doubt that social learning and environmental factors 470 00:26:15,241 --> 00:26:19,281 Speaker 1: these days, in particular ice or methyl ampheta man it's 471 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,281 Speaker 1: changing personalities dramatically. You know, back in the seventies, a 472 00:26:23,321 --> 00:26:27,001 Speaker 1: typical learning curve as you would steal cars in your teens, 473 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,120 Speaker 1: and you'd go to boys' homes, you go to jail, 474 00:26:30,521 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 1: you would end up robbing banks and so on. These 475 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 1: days where seeing murders occurring at the hands of seventeen 476 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 1: year olds, home invasions, serious crime in late teenage years, 477 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,801 Speaker 1: which in many ways I think is attributable to us. 478 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,801 Speaker 1: It's an evil drug. So that's an example of how 479 00:26:48,001 --> 00:26:50,880 Speaker 1: your behavior can be shaped by your environment to an extent. 480 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 2: So as you're having these experiences Julian Knight and other 481 00:26:56,321 --> 00:26:59,521 Speaker 2: violent criminals, you're being exposed to all these things. It's 482 00:26:59,561 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 2: starting to effect this gradual rotting of the soul, as 483 00:27:03,961 --> 00:27:07,881 Speaker 2: you've called it. But at the same time, your career 484 00:27:07,961 --> 00:27:12,161 Speaker 2: is soaring, you are in demand from the media, you're 485 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,001 Speaker 2: getting all these cases. You're incredibly accomplished. Did you see 486 00:27:16,041 --> 00:27:18,121 Speaker 2: any warning signs in what was going on. 487 00:27:18,281 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: Oh look, I was in denial. I believed my own bullshit. 488 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,880 Speaker 1: I was like Icarus. You know, I can still remember 489 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 1: the first line of cocaine I had. I hadn't trudged 490 00:27:28,681 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: drugs until my forties. I might have had, you know, 491 00:27:32,360 --> 00:27:35,281 Speaker 1: the odd tote of pot when I was at university 492 00:27:35,281 --> 00:27:37,921 Speaker 1: in tutorials, you know, but nothing at all. 493 00:27:37,801 --> 00:27:40,121 Speaker 2: In tutorials that was done back then. 494 00:27:40,241 --> 00:27:43,761 Speaker 1: That's in the university, mate. Well maybe not tutorials, but 495 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:48,561 Speaker 1: tutorial parties to be more precise. But I never really 496 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,360 Speaker 1: was attracted to cannabis. I didn't use it, and I 497 00:27:51,360 --> 00:27:55,041 Speaker 1: hadn't used any drugs really until my early forties, and 498 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: I lost sight of it all. You know, That's what happened. 499 00:27:58,241 --> 00:28:01,881 Speaker 1: And the thing about cocaine a drug I detest now 500 00:28:01,961 --> 00:28:05,561 Speaker 1: as well. It affects your judgment. It has an impact 501 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: on your prefrontal cortex. Your personality can change, you become 502 00:28:10,961 --> 00:28:15,961 Speaker 1: more impulsive. Consequential thinking doesn't factor into your judgment at all. 503 00:28:16,721 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 1: And I had all those things you were talking about, 504 00:28:19,561 --> 00:28:21,921 Speaker 1: you know, the docs, intern all this sort of stuff, 505 00:28:22,281 --> 00:28:26,241 Speaker 1: and so I certainly lost my moral compass then, and 506 00:28:26,481 --> 00:28:29,241 Speaker 1: you know, I look back the hypocrisy of it, all 507 00:28:29,761 --> 00:28:32,041 Speaker 1: going to court as this doy on of you know, 508 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,921 Speaker 1: this is how you run your life and secretly having 509 00:28:36,001 --> 00:28:38,841 Speaker 1: a double life where I was using drugs at home 510 00:28:38,921 --> 00:28:42,001 Speaker 1: and so on, I can understand why I was dealt 511 00:28:42,041 --> 00:28:43,761 Speaker 1: with so harshly when it all erupted. 512 00:28:45,281 --> 00:28:48,041 Speaker 2: See a lot of people use and abuse cocaine that've 513 00:28:48,041 --> 00:28:50,681 Speaker 2: done it for many, many years. And yes we have 514 00:28:50,761 --> 00:28:53,641 Speaker 2: the story where it causes a disaster, but a lot 515 00:28:53,681 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 2: of people function on it. One thing I always call 516 00:28:56,241 --> 00:28:58,881 Speaker 2: bullshit on in drug stories is the idea that it 517 00:28:58,921 --> 00:29:01,241 Speaker 2: wasn't enjoyable at some point on the way through. 518 00:29:02,201 --> 00:29:05,241 Speaker 1: You know, I'll call bullshit on that too. You know, 519 00:29:05,281 --> 00:29:07,361 Speaker 1: that's why you keep using it, but you reach a 520 00:29:07,441 --> 00:29:12,161 Speaker 1: point where the comdown is so harsh. That's what fuels 521 00:29:12,161 --> 00:29:14,881 Speaker 1: the addiction. You know a lot of other things were 522 00:29:14,921 --> 00:29:16,561 Speaker 1: going on in my life at that time. I was 523 00:29:16,641 --> 00:29:20,081 Speaker 1: working very hard some weeks up to one hundred hours 524 00:29:20,121 --> 00:29:24,881 Speaker 1: a week in demand traveling, and my first wife, Susan 525 00:29:25,041 --> 00:29:28,801 Speaker 1: had been diagnosed with stage four bowl cancer. She was 526 00:29:28,841 --> 00:29:32,681 Speaker 1: forty one, and we had two children who were just 527 00:29:32,801 --> 00:29:36,721 Speaker 1: hitting adolescents. Then. It was not an easy time and 528 00:29:36,801 --> 00:29:40,121 Speaker 1: so I was self medicating with that as well. Going 529 00:29:40,161 --> 00:29:43,081 Speaker 1: to work, taking the kids to the hospice, all that 530 00:29:43,121 --> 00:29:45,801 Speaker 1: sort of stuff, and that's when the cracks really started 531 00:29:45,841 --> 00:29:47,361 Speaker 1: to appear in a big way. 532 00:29:47,801 --> 00:29:50,721 Speaker 2: What I've observed with people who abused cocaine that I've 533 00:29:50,761 --> 00:29:53,681 Speaker 2: known well is a certain I guess, loss of empathy 534 00:29:54,401 --> 00:29:56,921 Speaker 2: and the idea that the universe is now retooled there 535 00:29:56,961 --> 00:29:59,401 Speaker 2: at the center of it. Everything else revolves around them. Therefore, 536 00:29:59,441 --> 00:30:03,321 Speaker 2: they don't have the bandwidth to deal with personal tragedy 537 00:30:03,641 --> 00:30:07,761 Speaker 2: in people around them. That can cause a crating of 538 00:30:07,801 --> 00:30:09,881 Speaker 2: their life when it all comes to roost. 539 00:30:10,121 --> 00:30:14,041 Speaker 1: Well, certainly my life created I was using beyond that, 540 00:30:14,161 --> 00:30:17,601 Speaker 1: you know, discussion of it's initially pleasurable. I was using 541 00:30:17,601 --> 00:30:20,721 Speaker 1: to numb my feelings. So I think you're right, facing 542 00:30:20,801 --> 00:30:25,841 Speaker 1: up to the inevitability of Sue's demise, my kids, it 543 00:30:25,921 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 1: was all too much on top of the work. So 544 00:30:27,841 --> 00:30:31,281 Speaker 1: I was numbing out my feelings. It was energizing me 545 00:30:31,321 --> 00:30:32,321 Speaker 1: in some ways too. 546 00:30:32,521 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 2: You know. 547 00:30:33,281 --> 00:30:36,801 Speaker 1: I didn't use it work, but they were difficult times 548 00:30:37,401 --> 00:30:37,881 Speaker 1: they worked. 549 00:30:37,921 --> 00:30:39,961 Speaker 2: And at the same time, I mean, you're now knocking 550 00:30:39,961 --> 00:30:44,201 Speaker 2: around with Andrew Fraser, the defense attorney who later became 551 00:30:44,201 --> 00:30:47,921 Speaker 2: a cocaine importer, and I guess everyone has their influence, 552 00:30:47,961 --> 00:30:50,081 Speaker 2: their cohort when they take drugs. He was yours. 553 00:30:50,401 --> 00:30:53,281 Speaker 1: Well, you know, I met Andrew when neither of us 554 00:30:53,521 --> 00:30:57,921 Speaker 1: used drugs. It was like a slow developing friendship. He 555 00:30:58,041 --> 00:31:01,081 Speaker 1: was a big deal in the criminal law field. He 556 00:31:01,241 --> 00:31:05,201 Speaker 1: started referring me work and a friendship developed out of that. 557 00:31:05,761 --> 00:31:09,001 Speaker 1: But he too lost his way, I mean obviously in 558 00:31:09,041 --> 00:31:11,801 Speaker 1: a massive way. I had no idea what he was 559 00:31:11,881 --> 00:31:14,921 Speaker 1: up to until he was arrested and charged in terms 560 00:31:14,961 --> 00:31:18,041 Speaker 1: of the importation. But I was caught up in the 561 00:31:18,041 --> 00:31:21,161 Speaker 1: slipstream of all of that because we're good mates. Would 562 00:31:21,161 --> 00:31:24,681 Speaker 1: speak on the phone all the time. That's how it unfolded. 563 00:31:25,241 --> 00:31:28,001 Speaker 1: I might say that from the time of me being 564 00:31:28,161 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: brought well, I actually went in to speak to the police, 565 00:31:30,561 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: but from the time of that occurring, I had no 566 00:31:33,401 --> 00:31:36,801 Speaker 1: further contact with him. I didn't speak with him ever again. 567 00:31:36,961 --> 00:31:39,081 Speaker 1: He died I think one or two years ago from 568 00:31:39,201 --> 00:31:42,201 Speaker 1: did multiple ma lamb, but we had no further contact. 569 00:31:43,681 --> 00:31:44,361 Speaker 1: He betrayed you. 570 00:31:44,321 --> 00:31:46,121 Speaker 2: As well, though, I think it's a I mean, you 571 00:31:46,161 --> 00:31:48,521 Speaker 2: were caught up on phone taps and this is what 572 00:31:48,561 --> 00:31:53,081 Speaker 2: always gets police excited when people are using code for drugs. Yeah, 573 00:31:53,121 --> 00:31:53,721 Speaker 2: you were going to. 574 00:31:53,681 --> 00:31:55,921 Speaker 1: The footy or you were aesthetic code when you look 575 00:31:56,001 --> 00:31:57,361 Speaker 1: back on it, but anyway. 576 00:31:57,401 --> 00:32:00,321 Speaker 2: Yeah, but that certainly dragged you into his world. And 577 00:32:00,721 --> 00:32:02,881 Speaker 2: like I said, that loss of empathy with Andrew Fraser, 578 00:32:02,921 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 2: and I'm very much tinged to Phraser by my mentor 579 00:32:07,081 --> 00:32:09,561 Speaker 2: Brian the skull Murphy is also late and he never 580 00:32:09,561 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 2: thought that Phraser was any good. He thought that he 581 00:32:11,841 --> 00:32:15,321 Speaker 2: was using when he was representing Dennis Allen, and he 582 00:32:15,401 --> 00:32:17,361 Speaker 2: was in and out of that home there, and he 583 00:32:17,441 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 2: kept Allan out of jail while he continued to murder people. 584 00:32:21,521 --> 00:32:23,601 Speaker 2: So there was some moral questions there. 585 00:32:23,761 --> 00:32:26,161 Speaker 1: Well, I didn't know him then, so I can't really 586 00:32:26,201 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 1: comment upon it. But certainly when things blew up or 587 00:32:30,521 --> 00:32:34,641 Speaker 1: imploded it he had a raging habit and I wasn't 588 00:32:34,641 --> 00:32:39,001 Speaker 1: far behind him. And that's the insidious power, the evil 589 00:32:39,041 --> 00:32:42,761 Speaker 1: power of this drug, because along the road you lose insight, 590 00:32:43,201 --> 00:32:47,881 Speaker 1: you do lose empathy, you don't think about consequences. And 591 00:32:48,521 --> 00:32:51,401 Speaker 1: I don't know anyone who uses coke at that level. 592 00:32:51,441 --> 00:32:54,161 Speaker 1: It doesn't come out with big war wounds. You know, 593 00:32:54,401 --> 00:32:57,001 Speaker 1: it's not as bad as us, but it's really on 594 00:32:57,081 --> 00:33:00,241 Speaker 1: the same trajectory. I think. And the interesting thing Adam 595 00:33:00,321 --> 00:33:02,401 Speaker 1: Naji would know is there's so many people in the 596 00:33:02,441 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: professions using coke. Lawyers, accountants, some doctors. I don't know 597 00:33:09,121 --> 00:33:12,801 Speaker 1: these people. I hear it anecdotally around the traps and 598 00:33:12,841 --> 00:33:15,521 Speaker 1: from class. I say, oh, you know, I went to 599 00:33:15,521 --> 00:33:17,841 Speaker 1: see this lawyer and blah blah blah, and they were 600 00:33:17,841 --> 00:33:20,881 Speaker 1: a bit shocked. So and look you look at fluent. 601 00:33:20,961 --> 00:33:23,321 Speaker 1: You know, they've got these guys running around in concrete 602 00:33:23,361 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: birds and gas masks, walking through the sewer studying fluent. 603 00:33:27,161 --> 00:33:27,921 Speaker 2: And what a job. 604 00:33:28,041 --> 00:33:30,321 Speaker 1: Yeah, what a job. We couldn't pay me enough, I'm 605 00:33:30,361 --> 00:33:33,801 Speaker 1: telling you, but they will tell you in Sydney and Melbourne. 606 00:33:34,161 --> 00:33:36,641 Speaker 1: Cocaine ice it's just ubiquitous. 607 00:33:37,241 --> 00:33:39,161 Speaker 2: Yeah. You've also touched on something in your book which 608 00:33:39,161 --> 00:33:43,241 Speaker 2: I think is more fundamental. That you discovered, despite all 609 00:33:43,281 --> 00:33:48,121 Speaker 2: your success, life was hollow. It lacked meaning and purpose. 610 00:33:48,681 --> 00:33:53,081 Speaker 2: You'd created a distance between yourself and your most important assets, 611 00:33:53,121 --> 00:33:59,561 Speaker 2: your children, and that I think was something that cocaine addressed. 612 00:33:59,561 --> 00:34:02,881 Speaker 2: In fact, I remember a very famous barrister who became 613 00:34:02,921 --> 00:34:04,761 Speaker 2: a judge in this state. I was with him on 614 00:34:04,841 --> 00:34:06,561 Speaker 2: that when it had just taken some coke and I said, 615 00:34:06,561 --> 00:34:08,801 Speaker 2: how does it feel, He said, I feel the way 616 00:34:08,841 --> 00:34:10,241 Speaker 2: I feel I should feel. 617 00:34:10,921 --> 00:34:16,361 Speaker 1: That's eloquent. You know, Well, look, the via chemistry, the 618 00:34:16,401 --> 00:34:19,841 Speaker 1: neurochemistry coke is that you have a big release of dopoment, 619 00:34:19,881 --> 00:34:23,801 Speaker 1: which is the good, feel good you transmitter chemical. And 620 00:34:23,841 --> 00:34:27,361 Speaker 1: so people typically when they use initially get a great 621 00:34:27,401 --> 00:34:31,481 Speaker 1: sense of euphoria and they're empowered by that feeling and 622 00:34:31,521 --> 00:34:34,281 Speaker 1: that's what gets them back. And you've probably heard this 623 00:34:34,361 --> 00:34:37,721 Speaker 1: over the years. You know, people years habitually, they're always 624 00:34:37,921 --> 00:34:41,641 Speaker 1: chasing that first experience and they never quite get there. 625 00:34:42,081 --> 00:34:45,601 Speaker 1: And that's the barrister probably nailed it with that comment. 626 00:34:45,681 --> 00:34:48,601 Speaker 2: I think myself in a very much more minor way, 627 00:34:49,081 --> 00:34:52,561 Speaker 2: I understand when you talk about the empathetic toll that 628 00:34:52,601 --> 00:34:54,321 Speaker 2: it takes on you, and when you're trying to deal 629 00:34:54,361 --> 00:34:56,641 Speaker 2: with criminals and their families and all the things that 630 00:34:56,681 --> 00:34:58,801 Speaker 2: go on. And I've experienced this as well, to the 631 00:34:58,841 --> 00:35:01,721 Speaker 2: point where I think to myself, how deep is the 632 00:35:01,761 --> 00:35:04,761 Speaker 2: well how much can I give of myself to these 633 00:35:04,761 --> 00:35:08,521 Speaker 2: people before I'm in deficit? Did you feel the same 634 00:35:08,521 --> 00:35:10,281 Speaker 2: way that she turned yourself inside out? 635 00:35:10,721 --> 00:35:13,281 Speaker 1: Well? I think I did. In retrospect, I don't anymore 636 00:35:13,961 --> 00:35:19,001 Speaker 1: I've been having ongoing, not mandated, but professional supervision for 637 00:35:19,121 --> 00:35:23,881 Speaker 1: years now because I recognize the nature of the work 638 00:35:23,921 --> 00:35:27,761 Speaker 1: that I we do in this field takes a toll 639 00:35:27,801 --> 00:35:30,801 Speaker 1: on you. And it's an interesting point. You know. Back then, 640 00:35:31,561 --> 00:35:34,081 Speaker 1: people knew me well, thought I was kind of unraveling 641 00:35:34,121 --> 00:35:36,601 Speaker 1: a bit, and they said, maybe you should get some help, 642 00:35:36,641 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 1: maybe you should get some supervision. I said, well, who's 643 00:35:39,521 --> 00:35:42,681 Speaker 1: going to supervise me? You know, I'm Tim Watson Monroe. 644 00:35:42,841 --> 00:35:45,441 Speaker 1: All this sort of bullshit, and I didn't want to 645 00:35:45,441 --> 00:35:47,721 Speaker 1: disclose its extent of my problem, so I didn't know 646 00:35:47,721 --> 00:35:51,161 Speaker 1: where it would end up. But these days I see 647 00:35:51,201 --> 00:35:55,361 Speaker 1: a clinical psychologist quite regularly. Not for treatment these days, 648 00:35:55,401 --> 00:36:00,601 Speaker 1: more about exploring the depth and trauma associated with some 649 00:36:00,641 --> 00:36:03,841 Speaker 1: of the cases that I'm still involved with. That said, 650 00:36:04,001 --> 00:36:07,001 Speaker 1: you know, I made a decision some years away to 651 00:36:07,321 --> 00:36:11,201 Speaker 1: get away from heavy crime, and I've sized known to 652 00:36:11,401 --> 00:36:14,561 Speaker 1: doing what could loosely be described as immigration works. So 653 00:36:15,201 --> 00:36:17,521 Speaker 1: it's just a different take on the same problem. In 654 00:36:17,561 --> 00:36:22,441 Speaker 1: some ways, people in Australia who are not citizens of Australia, 655 00:36:22,841 --> 00:36:27,321 Speaker 1: if they acquire a penalty in the court of nationally 656 00:36:27,641 --> 00:36:30,440 Speaker 1: twelve months to serve or more even if you don't 657 00:36:30,441 --> 00:36:33,681 Speaker 1: go to jail, they have a mandatory cancelation of their 658 00:36:33,761 --> 00:36:37,801 Speaker 1: visa and they are then generally placed in immigration detention 659 00:36:38,881 --> 00:36:41,521 Speaker 1: and there's an appeal process, and that's where I come in, 660 00:36:41,601 --> 00:36:45,281 Speaker 1: where I'm asked by their lawyers to provide a risk 661 00:36:45,321 --> 00:36:48,721 Speaker 1: assessment in terms of recidivism. I'm finding that much more 662 00:36:48,761 --> 00:36:53,401 Speaker 1: rewarding in many ways. As we've discussed privately, Adam, I'm 663 00:36:53,561 --> 00:36:58,361 Speaker 1: tired of gangsters and crooks and that grubby little scene, 664 00:36:58,441 --> 00:37:01,561 Speaker 1: which by the way, is much worse now than when 665 00:37:01,561 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 1: I was in the thick of it. Hardly a day 666 00:37:04,001 --> 00:37:06,481 Speaker 1: goes by now where somebody's not murdered on the streets 667 00:37:06,481 --> 00:37:09,281 Speaker 1: of Sydney and Melbourne. Never used to be quite like that. 668 00:37:09,721 --> 00:37:12,681 Speaker 2: No, I think we're really desensitized to it. I mean 669 00:37:12,761 --> 00:37:15,041 Speaker 2: during the Gangland War and you had I think more 670 00:37:15,041 --> 00:37:17,161 Speaker 2: than a dozen of your clients got knocked off it 671 00:37:18,041 --> 00:37:19,961 Speaker 2: doing that. But I think there was a sense of 672 00:37:20,001 --> 00:37:22,001 Speaker 2: moral outrage. The public was up in arms. But now 673 00:37:22,001 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 2: it's become the de rigueur. And I don't know whether 674 00:37:24,001 --> 00:37:25,601 Speaker 2: it's a I'm going to say so this maybe it's 675 00:37:25,601 --> 00:37:29,681 Speaker 2: slightly ethnically centered, because this Gangland War was more to 676 00:37:29,721 --> 00:37:33,281 Speaker 2: do with Anglos, if you like, and the Italians and things. 677 00:37:33,281 --> 00:37:35,801 Speaker 2: Now we've got all the Middle Eastern community represented. I 678 00:37:35,841 --> 00:37:38,001 Speaker 2: think there's even less sympathy for them, and there's a 679 00:37:38,081 --> 00:37:41,001 Speaker 2: kind of a racism that's being applied to them in 680 00:37:41,041 --> 00:37:44,081 Speaker 2: a perverse way because their war is not getting the 681 00:37:44,121 --> 00:37:46,441 Speaker 2: same sort of coverage as the other war. 682 00:37:46,961 --> 00:37:50,601 Speaker 1: Well, their war is ubiquitous, you know, the Gangland War. 683 00:37:50,801 --> 00:37:52,841 Speaker 1: I don't know twenty or thirty people were killed during 684 00:37:52,881 --> 00:37:56,121 Speaker 1: that time, As you correctly point out, a number of 685 00:37:56,121 --> 00:38:01,081 Speaker 1: mark class were murdered. But these murders, you know, where 686 00:38:01,121 --> 00:38:03,321 Speaker 1: people are shot coming out of restaurants. It reminds me 687 00:38:03,401 --> 00:38:07,641 Speaker 1: of Chicago. And the troubling thing about all that is 688 00:38:07,681 --> 00:38:10,281 Speaker 1: that young kids are being recruited to do the hits. 689 00:38:10,921 --> 00:38:13,281 Speaker 1: They have kill cars and kill kits. As you know, 690 00:38:13,801 --> 00:38:16,121 Speaker 1: they'll steal a car as a getaway car, they'll have 691 00:38:16,161 --> 00:38:19,761 Speaker 1: another get away car. There will be fuel to burn 692 00:38:19,881 --> 00:38:23,801 Speaker 1: down those cars to destroy them, and they will go 693 00:38:23,881 --> 00:38:26,081 Speaker 1: in for money and just shoot whoever they're commanded to 694 00:38:26,121 --> 00:38:29,401 Speaker 1: do so. I think that represents a step up or 695 00:38:29,401 --> 00:38:31,561 Speaker 1: a step down, however you want to put it. In 696 00:38:31,641 --> 00:38:34,001 Speaker 1: terms of what we're talking about. Twenty or thirty years. 697 00:38:33,801 --> 00:38:37,081 Speaker 2: Ago, right, And the devaluation of human life because these 698 00:38:37,121 --> 00:38:39,761 Speaker 2: hitmen are getting paid small amounts. Yeah, I mean here 699 00:38:39,761 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 2: in Melbourne it was fifty thousand dollars and above. Some 700 00:38:42,481 --> 00:38:44,401 Speaker 2: silly people were paying a million dollars. If you pay 701 00:38:44,441 --> 00:38:46,601 Speaker 2: some of a million dollars, then well you've got. 702 00:38:46,481 --> 00:38:47,681 Speaker 1: Money to burn you do. 703 00:38:48,041 --> 00:38:52,161 Speaker 2: So the devaluation of life is shocking. And I'm sure 704 00:38:52,161 --> 00:38:54,721 Speaker 2: you have contact with the profession still that's involved in 705 00:38:54,761 --> 00:38:59,321 Speaker 2: these cases. How are they going dealing with these the 706 00:38:59,401 --> 00:39:01,481 Speaker 2: lawyers and the psychologists. 707 00:39:01,761 --> 00:39:05,761 Speaker 1: Well, I think it's very challenging for them. I mean, lawyers, 708 00:39:05,801 --> 00:39:08,841 Speaker 1: as you know, have a duty to represent their client 709 00:39:08,921 --> 00:39:10,881 Speaker 1: to the best of their ability and to put their 710 00:39:11,281 --> 00:39:15,041 Speaker 1: personal bars to one side. But inevitably, I know this 711 00:39:15,121 --> 00:39:20,281 Speaker 1: from direct experience, you can't unsee or unhear what's gone on. 712 00:39:21,001 --> 00:39:25,881 Speaker 1: In terms of psychologists who do these evaluations, I'm sure 713 00:39:25,881 --> 00:39:28,161 Speaker 1: that it affects them too. I can't speak for them, 714 00:39:28,201 --> 00:39:30,521 Speaker 1: but I would only suggest that if you are doing 715 00:39:30,521 --> 00:39:33,201 Speaker 1: this sort of work, take a leaf out of my book, 716 00:39:33,241 --> 00:39:36,361 Speaker 1: get proper supervision and have someone to talk to about it. 717 00:39:36,601 --> 00:39:39,440 Speaker 2: Well, my father is a forensic psychiatrist as well, and 718 00:39:39,641 --> 00:39:42,881 Speaker 2: his way was to have a chat to his friend 719 00:39:42,921 --> 00:39:45,641 Speaker 2: next door. He was also a psychiatrist every couple of years, 720 00:39:46,001 --> 00:39:49,041 Speaker 2: and that was it. And he didn't have any discernible problems. 721 00:39:49,081 --> 00:39:51,521 Speaker 2: You'd like to drink, but it wasn't excessive, and I 722 00:39:51,561 --> 00:39:53,961 Speaker 2: was hoping to find the answer in the files that 723 00:39:54,041 --> 00:39:58,321 Speaker 2: he kept in locked cabinets. And he passed away. Now 724 00:39:58,401 --> 00:40:02,401 Speaker 2: in twenty fifteen, I expect to get access, but my mother, protective, 725 00:40:02,441 --> 00:40:05,201 Speaker 2: has always burnt all the files and ruined probably two 726 00:40:05,241 --> 00:40:06,841 Speaker 2: or three books I could have written about me and 727 00:40:06,881 --> 00:40:07,281 Speaker 2: my dad. 728 00:40:07,321 --> 00:40:10,361 Speaker 1: You know, that's a great shame, because he certainly was 729 00:40:10,361 --> 00:40:13,281 Speaker 1: well known and eminent. But it's just the way it 730 00:40:13,401 --> 00:40:15,921 Speaker 1: is back then, and I was on the tail end 731 00:40:15,961 --> 00:40:19,281 Speaker 1: of this. I think you were stoic at all costs, right, 732 00:40:19,361 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 1: You didn't show your feelings. I never discussed work really 733 00:40:23,041 --> 00:40:25,801 Speaker 1: with anyone, and my way of dealing with it was 734 00:40:25,841 --> 00:40:28,561 Speaker 1: to go to lunch every Friday with the Larks of 735 00:40:28,601 --> 00:40:32,081 Speaker 1: Andrew Fraser and others in Melbourne, and they were big lunches. 736 00:40:32,441 --> 00:40:35,561 Speaker 1: That was how we debrief. We wouldn't necessarily talk about cases, 737 00:40:35,921 --> 00:40:39,601 Speaker 1: but what it did was it transported us away from 738 00:40:40,001 --> 00:40:41,921 Speaker 1: really the horror of some of the cases we were 739 00:40:41,961 --> 00:40:42,481 Speaker 1: dealing with. 740 00:40:43,561 --> 00:40:45,841 Speaker 2: So now at this end of it, do you feel 741 00:40:45,881 --> 00:40:48,161 Speaker 2: you've reconciled the past or is it always going to 742 00:40:48,161 --> 00:40:50,041 Speaker 2: be with you? I mean, I think this said, this 743 00:40:50,121 --> 00:40:52,321 Speaker 2: does come with the territory. You can't walk in there 744 00:40:52,361 --> 00:40:55,521 Speaker 2: covered in teflon. It's going to affect you. Look, I've 745 00:40:55,561 --> 00:40:59,761 Speaker 2: reconciled the past. In terms of my misconduct. I haven't 746 00:40:59,801 --> 00:41:04,921 Speaker 2: touched drugs, oh goodness, twenty six years. I'm positive about 747 00:41:04,921 --> 00:41:08,601 Speaker 2: the work that I do, and I enjoy what I do, 748 00:41:08,761 --> 00:41:12,121 Speaker 2: but there's boundaries around it. I don't work nearly as hard, 749 00:41:12,241 --> 00:41:15,121 Speaker 2: and I guess the counterpoint to all that is, I know, 750 00:41:15,721 --> 00:41:18,440 Speaker 2: as you mentioned in your kind introduction, involved in other 751 00:41:18,761 --> 00:41:20,121 Speaker 2: creative pursuits. 752 00:41:20,561 --> 00:41:22,721 Speaker 1: So I've written a couple of books. I do a 753 00:41:22,801 --> 00:41:29,001 Speaker 1: podcast with doctor Zanth Mallett, high profile criminologist, Associate Professor 754 00:41:29,081 --> 00:41:33,681 Speaker 1: of criminology, and I think now Central Queenslane University. 755 00:41:33,641 --> 00:41:35,921 Speaker 2: Motive and Method. You can find it on nine podcasts. 756 00:41:36,041 --> 00:41:38,361 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we were picked up by nine podcasts which 757 00:41:38,361 --> 00:41:41,801 Speaker 1: were thrilled them out. And I really enjoy the sort 758 00:41:41,801 --> 00:41:45,121 Speaker 1: of intellectual stimulation of speaking with Xanth on a weekly 759 00:41:45,161 --> 00:41:48,401 Speaker 1: basis about criminal matters. But at the end of the day, mate, 760 00:41:48,481 --> 00:41:51,601 Speaker 1: I go home, na, I have a nice meal, I 761 00:41:51,641 --> 00:41:54,321 Speaker 1: watch a bit of TV. A very quiet life, you 762 00:41:54,401 --> 00:41:55,081 Speaker 1: might say. 763 00:41:55,521 --> 00:41:57,921 Speaker 2: I like what you wrote at the end of your 764 00:41:58,041 --> 00:42:01,721 Speaker 2: first memoir, Dancing with Demons, where you go through all 765 00:42:01,801 --> 00:42:04,641 Speaker 2: this high fluting stuffing is incredibly important cases. But then 766 00:42:04,641 --> 00:42:07,321 Speaker 2: you say, and at the end of all this life 767 00:42:07,521 --> 00:42:09,401 Speaker 2: is brief and insignificant. 768 00:42:10,001 --> 00:42:13,121 Speaker 1: That's quite right. And I think I also said leave 769 00:42:13,161 --> 00:42:15,761 Speaker 1: your ego in a box. You know, we get so 770 00:42:15,961 --> 00:42:19,281 Speaker 1: caught up in our hubris, and I think you need 771 00:42:19,321 --> 00:42:22,161 Speaker 1: to be mindful of that. And certainly, at my age 772 00:42:22,201 --> 00:42:26,241 Speaker 1: seventy two, life certainly is shorter than it was twenty 773 00:42:26,241 --> 00:42:28,241 Speaker 1: thirty years ago. Tim. 774 00:42:28,281 --> 00:42:31,001 Speaker 2: I've only ever known you in this post the second 775 00:42:31,001 --> 00:42:33,440 Speaker 2: part of your career, basically, and I've never met someone 776 00:42:33,441 --> 00:42:37,241 Speaker 2: who's more humble without hubris than you. So obviously these 777 00:42:37,241 --> 00:42:41,121 Speaker 2: life lessons were incredibly impactful on you, because you rose very, 778 00:42:41,201 --> 00:42:43,801 Speaker 2: very high and you fell very far. 779 00:42:44,201 --> 00:42:46,521 Speaker 1: Well, it's a very kind comment, Thank you, Adam for that. 780 00:42:47,321 --> 00:42:51,201 Speaker 1: Look before all the success and before the drugs, I 781 00:42:51,241 --> 00:42:54,081 Speaker 1: was actually pretty humble block too, But you know, they 782 00:42:54,081 --> 00:42:57,721 Speaker 1: were just crazy years, you know, cases like Alan Bond 783 00:42:58,281 --> 00:43:04,201 Speaker 1: Australia's richest man at the time, all the Gangster's Alphonse Gangitana, Graham, Kinnerborrow. 784 00:43:04,601 --> 00:43:08,921 Speaker 1: And I've said this already. I was young. I didn't 785 00:43:08,961 --> 00:43:11,641 Speaker 1: have the wisdom that I have now, and I think 786 00:43:11,721 --> 00:43:15,361 Speaker 1: the great takeaway for me is the acquisition of wisdom 787 00:43:15,441 --> 00:43:19,401 Speaker 1: through experience. So I clearly regret the past in terms 788 00:43:19,401 --> 00:43:22,201 Speaker 1: of those aspects of the past, But on the other hand, 789 00:43:22,241 --> 00:43:24,921 Speaker 1: my positive spin on that is it's probably made me 790 00:43:24,961 --> 00:43:25,681 Speaker 1: a better person. 791 00:43:26,201 --> 00:43:27,761 Speaker 2: Tim, You're always a good bloke, and thank you for 792 00:43:27,761 --> 00:43:29,041 Speaker 2: sharing your memories today. 793 00:43:29,481 --> 00:43:31,481 Speaker 1: That's a great pleasure. Thank you Adam for having me 794 00:43:31,521 --> 00:43:32,441 Speaker 1: on your podcast. 795 00:43:37,041 --> 00:43:40,881 Speaker 2: That's Tim Watson Munroe. Tim I believe has transcended the 796 00:43:40,921 --> 00:43:43,281 Speaker 2: world of crime and law. He's had an impact on 797 00:43:43,321 --> 00:43:45,841 Speaker 2: our culture and he continues to do so through with 798 00:43:46,001 --> 00:43:49,881 Speaker 2: very generous participation in media, helping people like me and 799 00:43:49,961 --> 00:43:53,241 Speaker 2: we're making stupid comments and silly theories. He brings us 800 00:43:53,281 --> 00:43:56,601 Speaker 2: back to earth. So I really do appreciate his presence 801 00:43:56,601 --> 00:43:58,401 Speaker 2: in my life, and he also gives me an insight 802 00:43:58,441 --> 00:44:00,321 Speaker 2: intom but things my dad never told me. So this 803 00:44:00,361 --> 00:44:04,761 Speaker 2: podcast is extremely indulgent. You'll excuse me that in this case, 804 00:44:05,361 --> 00:44:07,001 Speaker 2: tell me. If you have a crime that you'd like 805 00:44:07,041 --> 00:44:09,881 Speaker 2: to report, please call crime Stoppers one out a, triple three, 806 00:44:09,961 --> 00:44:11,961 Speaker 2: triple zero. If you don't like the cops, you can 807 00:44:12,001 --> 00:44:15,041 Speaker 2: email me Adam Shander writer at gmail dot com. Thank 808 00:44:15,041 --> 00:44:17,761 Speaker 2: you for listening. Make sure you subscribe, share, like all 809 00:44:17,761 --> 00:44:19,841 Speaker 2: the things you do with podcasts these days. Thank you 810 00:44:19,881 --> 00:44:20,361 Speaker 2: for listening.