WEBVTT - Part 2: The fall of the Murdoch empire

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<v Speaker 1>Hi, This is part two of our interview with the

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<v Speaker 1>journalist McKay coppins. If you haven't yet, start by listening

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<v Speaker 1>to part one Inside James and Rupert Murdock's Meltdown. One

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<v Speaker 1>of the cardinal Murdoch family rules is that you must

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<v Speaker 1>never speak about the family outside the family. So when

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<v Speaker 1>journalist McKay coppins got in touch with James Murdoch back

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<v Speaker 1>in twenty twenty four, he really wasn't expecting a reply.

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<v Speaker 1>But McKay was curious about what would happen to the

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<v Speaker 1>Murdoch empire when Rupert died, and what it would mean

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<v Speaker 1>for his youngest son, James, who seemed outcast from the family.

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<v Speaker 1>What he didn't yet know was that there was already

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<v Speaker 1>a secret High SAKEX legal battle going on, and James

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<v Speaker 1>was ready to talk about it. Here's part two of

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<v Speaker 1>my interview with McKay coppins. So, McKay, during the time

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<v Speaker 1>that you were speaking with James, it emerged that his father,

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<v Speaker 1>Rupert Murdock, had mounted this legal challenge that, had it

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<v Speaker 1>been successful, would have essentially evicted James and his two

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<v Speaker 1>sisters from a company in Lachlan's favor. What did James

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<v Speaker 1>say to you about the moment that he found out

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<v Speaker 1>about that plan.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it was a pretty dramatic moment, but kind of

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<v Speaker 2>belied by how it was actually delivered, which was on

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<v Speaker 2>a zoom call with Rupert and a number of lawyers

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<v Speaker 2>and then his various children, and Rupert kind of read

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<v Speaker 2>robotically from a script that had been prepared for him.

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<v Speaker 2>Lochlin busied himself at an offscreen laptop, But what was

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<v Speaker 2>happening was Rupert was essentially telling his kids, I'm going

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<v Speaker 2>to disenfranchise all of you except for Lochlan and give

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<v Speaker 2>him complete control of the empire. It felt like a

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<v Speaker 2>betrayal to James. His own mother had actually been the

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<v Speaker 2>one who'd insisted on rewriting the family trust back in

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<v Speaker 2>the nineties to ensure that all four of the oldest

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<v Speaker 2>children would have an equal say in the companies. The

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<v Speaker 2>idea was that it would incentivize them to work together.

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<v Speaker 2>She had seen how Rupert kind of played his kids

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<v Speaker 2>off each other, how he pitted them against each other.

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<v Speaker 2>She worried that they would be kind of consumed with

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<v Speaker 2>a quest for the crown, and she wanted them to

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<v Speaker 2>find a way to work together and Rupert's decision, in

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<v Speaker 2>these kind of the twilight of his life to say, actually,

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<v Speaker 2>forget all that, I'm just going to give this all

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<v Speaker 2>to my favorite and oldest son really felt like not

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<v Speaker 2>just a betrayal of him, but also of their mother's wishes.

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<v Speaker 1>And of course James and his sisters they contested Rupert's

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<v Speaker 1>attempts to change the trust, and the case made it

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<v Speaker 1>to court. Can you tell me a bit about the

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<v Speaker 1>day that it started in Nevada.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So on that day, James and his wife Catherine,

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<v Speaker 2>and his sisters all pulled up at the courthouse in Reno, Nevada.

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<v Speaker 2>They walked up. About thirty minutes later, Rupert and Lachlan

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<v Speaker 2>and their team pulled up.

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<v Speaker 3>Makes a note of the compident of victory Eddie Koma.

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<v Speaker 2>They had actually coordinated with each other to ensure that

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<v Speaker 2>they didn't arrive at the same time, because they didn't

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<v Speaker 2>want the cameras there to capture the hostility that now

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<v Speaker 2>defined their family. But the thing that James remembers most

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<v Speaker 2>from that first day in the courthouse was he got

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<v Speaker 2>to the courtroom and he told me that he had

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<v Speaker 2>planned to kind of approach the proceedings in the spirit

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<v Speaker 2>of kind of corporate combat, right, he said, I'm good

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<v Speaker 2>at that. I know how to act in those settings.

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<v Speaker 2>But he got into the courtroom and he found that

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<v Speaker 2>he was surprised by how emotional he was. He said, he,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, just looked across the courtroom at his father

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<v Speaker 2>and his brother, and these are men that he had known,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, his whole life, whom he had loved, he'd

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<v Speaker 2>shared all these memories with, and they were now completely

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<v Speaker 2>estranged from one another, involved in this bitter legal battle.

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<v Speaker 2>And he said, the question he just kept asking himself

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<v Speaker 2>and has continued to ask himself since, is how did

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<v Speaker 2>we let it come to this? And I think that

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<v Speaker 2>that's still a question he hasn't been able to answer.

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<v Speaker 1>And at the time this was all happening behind closed doors,

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<v Speaker 1>it was secret. But the bulk of the trial record

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<v Speaker 1>has been leagud. And obviously you've spoken to James at

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<v Speaker 1>length about what happened in court. What did he say

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<v Speaker 1>about what it was like to give evidence?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, actually, even before the day in the court he

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<v Speaker 2>was deposed, and he said that he sat down across

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<v Speaker 2>from his father and his father's lawyer, and by this

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<v Speaker 2>point he hadn't seen his he hadn't talked to his

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<v Speaker 2>father in years. They were fully estranged at this point,

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<v Speaker 2>but they sat down for the deposition, and the lawyer

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<v Speaker 2>kind of spent multiple hours just firing these questions at

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<v Speaker 2>James that were really kind of disdainful and withering. They

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<v Speaker 2>were questions like, have you ever done anything successful on

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<v Speaker 2>your own? And why don't you take responsibility for your actions?

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<v Speaker 2>And why didn't you call your father on his ninetieth

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<v Speaker 2>birthday and things like that, and James said he did

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<v Speaker 2>his best to focus on the lawyer's questions, but he

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<v Speaker 2>kept looking over at his dad, who just was staring

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<v Speaker 2>at him kind of inscrutably, and every once in a

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<v Speaker 2>while would pick up his phone and text questions to

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<v Speaker 2>the lawyer to ask him. And, as you can imagine,

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<v Speaker 2>just an incredibly bizarre and in his words, twisted experience

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<v Speaker 2>that he hasn't really been able to forget.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break James's vision for the future of Fox News,

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<v Speaker 1>So McKay, it does ultimately seem like Rupert believes that

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<v Speaker 1>the only person who will preserve his empire the way

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<v Speaker 1>that he imagines it is Lachlan. What did James say

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<v Speaker 1>about what he thinks should be done to address Fox

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<v Speaker 1>News's output. Specifically, what sense do you have of how

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<v Speaker 1>he might actually like to change things.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, it's clear that James does not think Fox

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<v Speaker 2>News is being operated correctly. You know, he sees it

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<v Speaker 2>as kind of a blight on his family name, a

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<v Speaker 2>menace to American democracy. Certainly. He described the Fox News

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<v Speaker 2>formula as lying to your audience to juice ratings. What

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<v Speaker 2>would happen to Fox News if James had his way?

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<v Speaker 2>As an interesting question. He was pretty cautious with me

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<v Speaker 2>whenever I would ask that question. But one thing he

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<v Speaker 2>said to me repeatedly was that it's not that Fox

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<v Speaker 2>News needs to become a liberal network. It's obviously conservative

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<v Speaker 2>and it would probably stay that way. But what he

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<v Speaker 2>sees is a network that's desperately in need of stronger

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<v Speaker 2>journalistic guardrails. He wants the management there to insist on

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<v Speaker 2>real editorial standards that would define any other news organization.

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<v Speaker 2>He wants a cleaner, healthier internal culture. He wants a

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<v Speaker 2>company where the talent, the hosts aren't just kind of

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<v Speaker 2>allowed to say whatever they want on the air, but rather,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, are trying to be responsible stewards of information

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<v Speaker 2>and reporting. He believes that you could still have a

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<v Speaker 2>center right news network, but one that's just responsible and

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<v Speaker 2>and right now, that is not what Fox News is.

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<v Speaker 2>I will I should add though, that I asked this

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<v Speaker 2>question to Catherine, James's wife, and they're very close. They

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<v Speaker 2>discuss all these things. She actually said to me at

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<v Speaker 2>one point that she's not sure Fox News can be reformed.

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<v Speaker 2>At this point, she said, there's a there's it just

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't have an obvious place in the ecosystem anymore. And

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<v Speaker 2>that's obviously raised a lot of eyebrows since her quote

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<v Speaker 2>was published, because I think there's there's a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>questions about what what would happen to this very powerful

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<v Speaker 2>cable news channel when Rupert dies if James has his way.

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<v Speaker 1>And ultimately Rupert and Lachlan they lost the case. James

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<v Speaker 1>and his sisters won.

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<v Speaker 4>The Nevada court denying the billionaire's bit to change a

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<v Speaker 4>family trust and give control to his eldest son. The

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<v Speaker 4>leaked court ruling stated that his attempt to change it

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<v Speaker 4>was in bad faith.

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<v Speaker 1>So where does that leave the future of the Murdoch

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<v Speaker 1>media empire right now hanging in the balance?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, it's kind of in a holding pattern. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>Rupert is still alive, he has control of these companies.

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<v Speaker 2>When he dies, barring a successful appeal, control will be

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<v Speaker 2>split four ways among James, Lachlan, Elizabeth and Prudence Murdoch.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, you can read Tea leaves. It certainly

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<v Speaker 2>seems that James and his two oldest sisters have a

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<v Speaker 2>very different vision for these companies than Rupert and Lachlan do.

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<v Speaker 2>But we just don't know what will happen until Rupert

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<v Speaker 2>is gone.

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<v Speaker 1>And what about how this case has left the family

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<v Speaker 1>and the relationships between the siblings and their father.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean to me, that's kind of what makes

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<v Speaker 2>this a sad story. Obviously, this is a story with

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<v Speaker 2>global stakes and consequences. These companies News Corp And Fox

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<v Speaker 2>are incredibly politically influential in Australia, in the UK and America.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's also just, at some basic level, a very

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<v Speaker 2>human story about a family unraveling. And James has spent

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of his time his life, frankly, studying dynastic dysfunction.

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<v Speaker 2>He's read King Lear, he can quote it from memory.

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<v Speaker 2>He's you know, studied the classics. He weaves esoteric facts

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<v Speaker 2>about fratricidal Roman emperors into casual, gone conversation, and what

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<v Speaker 2>he told me is that, you know, when you look

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<v Speaker 2>at all these families throughout history, it's kind of the

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<v Speaker 2>same patterns repeating over and over again. And what he

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<v Speaker 2>told me is the real tragedy is that no one

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<v Speaker 2>in my family seems to have taken those lessons. And

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know if there's any coming back from this,

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<v Speaker 2>At least from James's point of view. He feels like

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<v Speaker 2>this final betrayal from his father seems to be a

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<v Speaker 2>bridge too far, so I would be surprised if he

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<v Speaker 2>and his father are able to mend their relationship.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, thank you so much for your time. It's been fascinating.

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you, thanks for listening.

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<v Speaker 1>Tomorrow, we're looking at the rise of a Chinese maybe

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<v Speaker 1>that has quickly become one of the most popular vehicles

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<v Speaker 1>on Australian roads. It's cheap, fast and packed with tech,

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<v Speaker 1>but behind its popularity are questions security agencies are struggling

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<v Speaker 1>to grapple with. Because the cars we drive today are

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<v Speaker 1>no longer just cars. There are also data collection tools,

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<v Speaker 1>and in a tense geopolitical climate, the lines between convenience

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<v Speaker 1>and surveillance are blurring.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm Ruby Jones.

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<v Speaker 1>This is seven am.

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<v Speaker 3>See you tomorrow.