Speaker 1: I think it is missing from our sex education is,
Speaker 1: of course, the conversation.
Speaker 2: About respect, fun, pleasure, and communication.
Speaker 1: So I am not surprised that young people are going
Speaker 1: out into the world as young adults wondering about how
Speaker 1: they can make sex as safe as possible, but not
Speaker 1: really asking questions about pleasure.
Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome to the heart of it. We would
Speaker 3: like to acknowledge the Gadigor people of the urination that
Speaker 3: we record this podcast on today and give respect to
Speaker 3: their elders, both past and present. A real interesting chat
Speaker 3: we've had. Hey, honey, was scram I'm all of us,
Speaker 3: you're all abous.
Speaker 4: Who knows? I just you know. We talked to sexologists
Speaker 4: psychologist law Elee, and she put things very differently today,
Speaker 4: and it's just yeah, So I'm quite excited at some
Speaker 4: of the things that I think, dare I say, we
Speaker 4: can implement.
Speaker 3: And not necessarily sex, no, but hopefully leading to it. No, No,
Speaker 3: I think I know what you're talking about. I think
Speaker 3: when she was talking about like admiration and connecting to
Speaker 3: your senses, I loved that. Yes, I loved that. I
Speaker 3: thought that was really great. And she talks about which
Speaker 3: I think women will very much understand disconnecting from your body.
Speaker 3: I think men do as well, but I know women
Speaker 3: disconnect from often quite a young age due to their
Speaker 3: cycle when they've got to push through pain and they've
Speaker 3: got to disconnect and disconnect because they know they have
Speaker 3: to still go to school even though they've got period cramps,
Speaker 3: or go to work with endometriosis, or there's a lot
Speaker 3: of disconnecting that we often have to do from our
Speaker 3: bodily functions in a way. And I think when she
Speaker 3: mentioned that about a way to reconnect to your body,
Speaker 3: she had me. She had me on that.
Speaker 4: One, yeah, because it was sort of it was sort
Speaker 4: of checked back in and with yourself. It's almost like
Speaker 4: that meditation sort of idea of checking back in and
Speaker 4: being more aware of your senses. And I loved it
Speaker 4: when she said, I mean, she'll say it more, but
Speaker 4: it's not so much how you look. It's more about
Speaker 4: how you feel and being with that idea. And I
Speaker 4: know for me that was a big shift working out
Speaker 4: and just going I just don't look any different, and
Speaker 4: I'm losing heart in it. But it was like, I know,
Speaker 4: how do you feel? I feel so much better. We'll
Speaker 4: just keep doing it and that's what I's and see
Speaker 4: what happens. She does talk about the idea of with
Speaker 4: sex as wanting more sex versus creating a desire to
Speaker 4: have sex, which I thought was really really good.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's worked with couples, so sometimes she's been a
Speaker 3: psychologist and a sexologist. She's got over seventeen years ex
Speaker 3: experience in clinical practice and coaching. And she's the director
Speaker 3: of Blue Space Psychology where she provides individual psychological and
Speaker 3: sexual therapy.
Speaker 4: Yeah. She's pretty amazing actually, And this is a really
Speaker 4: terrific chat. So if sex is something you think about
Speaker 4: a lot or not, you're gonna love this chat with
Speaker 4: Laura Lee. Laura Lee, thank you for joining us today.
Speaker 4: May I say, what a great name. It's like your
Speaker 4: country artist.
Speaker 2: I appreciate that very much. It actually wasn't the name
Speaker 2: I was born with.
Speaker 1: I was briefly married and kept that got married very
Speaker 1: young and kept that surname even though I'm no longer
Speaker 1: married because of reactions exactly like that.
Speaker 4: It's a great name.
Speaker 3: Carry doing, Laura Le, like it's the whole first name, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does create some first names the name confusion,
Speaker 1: but otherwise otherwise it's workable.
Speaker 4: Yet, Well, we're really excited to have you with us
Speaker 4: today because one, you're a psychologist too. You're a sexologist
Speaker 4: with over seventeen years experience in clinical practice and coaching,
Speaker 4: and goodness knows a lot of us could use Right now,
Speaker 4: our son River is studying to be a psychologist, so
Speaker 4: we've we understand a good amount of why someone would
Speaker 4: become a psychologist. What about becoming a sexologist is what
Speaker 4: is sexology? And why did you choose to become an expert?
Speaker 2: Well, expert expert? Can we go with experts?
Speaker 1: Thank you much, thank you? So I thank you for that.
Speaker 2: Well, welcome. I really got interested in.
Speaker 1: Sexology because of my wonderful clients in my psychology practice.
Speaker 1: So sexology is the study of all things related to
Speaker 1: human sexuality. So sexologists might work in therapy, they might
Speaker 1: work in research, education, public health, health policy, health promotion.
Speaker 2: So sexologists work in all.
Speaker 1: Different kinds of ways. I got really interested in though,
Speaker 1: because I started to hear more and more from my clients'
Speaker 1: issues of sex and sex within their relationships, and I
Speaker 1: felt really ill equipped to support them because sex was
Speaker 1: not really covered at all in my six years of
Speaker 1: study and training to become a psychologist. I actually don't
Speaker 1: remember the word sex really even being mentioned. And as
Speaker 1: I started to talk to other healthcare providers, even gps,
Speaker 1: they all started saying the same thing. I have a
Speaker 1: friend who's a GP who said that sex was covered
Speaker 1: in one two hour lecture in her medical degree and
Speaker 1: that was about it.
Speaker 2: So it is really not.
Speaker 1: A huge part of health provider training. And I just
Speaker 1: felt very strongly I wanted to do better. I wanted
Speaker 1: to give people great sexual health care. So I went
Speaker 1: back into the master's in sexual health and psychosexual therapy.
Speaker 4: I find that interesting.
Speaker 3: So was that another two years or another.
Speaker 2: Year and another two years study?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Wow, I mean I find that really interesting that it's
Speaker 4: not covered because a lot of people would argue that
Speaker 4: men think about sex all the time.
Speaker 2: That's all that quite a lot, I believe.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so that's a lot of psychology there.
Speaker 3: Yes, Yes, it reminds me a lot of like the
Speaker 3: fact that doctors aren't trained in women's hormones as well,
Speaker 3: which also goes hand in hand with sex too, So
Speaker 3: it seems like there's a massive gap in the market there,
Speaker 3: specifically for women I think, I mean men too. I'm
Speaker 3: not saying the sexology is not. But like, for I'm
Speaker 3: just just saying.
Speaker 4: I think it's funny because you're thinking about hormones all
Speaker 4: the time and I'm probably thinking about sex. Yeah, a
Speaker 4: lot of it's exactly it.
Speaker 1: But I mean, Ali, your point is, your point is excellent.
Speaker 1: So we know that women's health and women's sexual health
Speaker 1: is particularly under funded under research, which unfortunately means women
Speaker 1: the will are actually more likely to get really poor
Speaker 1: health advice when it comes to sexuality. So I hear
Speaker 1: from my clients a lot about going to the doctor
Speaker 1: with issues of sexual pain, for example, and being given
Speaker 1: advice like relax, have a glass of wine. This this
Speaker 1: kind of advice, which is which is really unhelpful to
Speaker 1: say the very least.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and if you want to stay together, just put
Speaker 3: up and shut up, like just give him what he wants.
Speaker 3: Just just like think of Queen of England and just well,
Speaker 3: don't think of Queen of England.
Speaker 4: Actually I can think of the Queen of England. Maybe
Speaker 4: not likely, don't have.
Speaker 3: You know the way, and and then you know, then
Speaker 3: he's okay for a week, you know. I I lot
Speaker 3: of my friends talk like that. It's like, oh boy, okay,
Speaker 3: we've just I've got to service him to keep him happy,
Speaker 3: but like there's no enjoyment for them.
Speaker 1: No, And what you're referencing here is some really ingrained
Speaker 1: sexual scripts. So sexual scripts are these ideas, these stories
Speaker 1: that we've internalized about sex, and a lot of us
Speaker 1: would have similar similar ones growing up. You know, this
Speaker 1: idea of yes, sex being for the male partner, or
Speaker 1: sex being over when the male is finished, and all
Speaker 1: of these kinds of ideas sex meaning penetration.
Speaker 2: These are all really.
Speaker 1: Common ingrained scripts around sex culturally for us.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we had a I reference her a lot because
Speaker 3: she was just so interesting, but we had a sex
Speaker 3: historian in her and her mum. And I'm going to
Speaker 3: get the date of it wrong, but it wasn't that
Speaker 3: long ago in our history that they thought that women
Speaker 3: had to have an orgasm to get pregnant. And it
Speaker 3: wasn't until they discovered that you didn't, women didn't need
Speaker 3: to have the orgasm to get pregnant that it was like, oh,
Speaker 3: you don't need sexual pleasure, that's great, you can just
Speaker 3: be the carrier of the baby. And that's where women
Speaker 3: lost a lot of pleasure in a way.
Speaker 1: Is that how you yes, Yes, that's absolutely right. I
Speaker 1: know it wasn't that long ago. There's lots about women's
Speaker 1: health and women's anatomy that actually wasn't discovered that long ago,
Speaker 1: Like research into the clitorists, for example, is only really
Speaker 1: in the last few decades, like certainly in all of
Speaker 1: our lifetimes. So this is really this is a really
Speaker 1: i'm known under researched area.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the clitterist is an amazing little creature.
Speaker 2: Actually quite a big creature.
Speaker 3: Well quite, it's quite. It's bigger than we think it is.
Speaker 1: Yes it is, Yeah, yes it is.
Speaker 4: I'm saying, we.
Speaker 3: Looking at me like what.
Speaker 4: Most people struggle to even start a conversation about sex
Speaker 4: in relationship. Most I think, what are some simple ways
Speaker 4: to break the ice in a real relationship.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a really common concern for people. I
Speaker 1: think it is very common for people to be having
Speaker 1: sex but not talking about the sex that they were having.
Speaker 1: That was certainly true of me for most of my
Speaker 1: adult life. That's a very common experience. So if this
Speaker 1: is a new topic for someone you know in your relationship,
Speaker 1: no matter how long you've been together, I really invite
Speaker 1: you to consider that first conversation as simply an opportunity
Speaker 1: to explore willingness and openness to even talking about sex
Speaker 1: like that first conversation is not We're not trying to
Speaker 1: solve problems or raise issues. We're definitely not kind of
Speaker 1: giving feedback or raising grievances. Instead, it's more an opportunity
Speaker 1: to check for willingness from our partner that this is
Speaker 1: a topic that they even want to discuss. So that
Speaker 1: can look like something like, Hey, I feel a bit
Speaker 1: I feel a bit nervous bringing this up with you,
Speaker 1: but it occurs to me I'd like us to be,
Speaker 1: you know, great lovers to each other for a really
Speaker 1: long time time to come, and I want us to
Speaker 1: have great sexual experiences even though it's super awkward.
Speaker 2: Are you are you up for that?
Speaker 1: Are you? Are you up for that kind of conversation?
Speaker 3: That's all So, as far as you know couples opening
Speaker 3: up about sex and talking about sex, what do you
Speaker 3: find is the biggest barrier across the board that people have?
Speaker 3: Is it religion? Is it having not had an open
Speaker 3: conversation with their parents growing up? So what is it
Speaker 3: that stops people having just a regular conversation where they
Speaker 3: might feel the shame or the embarrassment.
Speaker 2: I think it's I think it's layered.
Speaker 1: So I think the first thing I would say is
Speaker 1: we still live in a pretty sex negative culture, so
Speaker 1: it would be easy to notice that we've come a
Speaker 1: long way, We've made a lot of progress, but actually
Speaker 1: there's a lot of there's still a lot of taboo
Speaker 1: around talking about sex. I mean, I look at how
Speaker 1: I even have to I have to spell sex in
Speaker 1: kind of COVID ways on social media just to even
Speaker 1: talk about my work. So there is still a real
Speaker 1: taboo around this topic. The second thing I would say
Speaker 1: about communication about sex is that it is a learnt
Speaker 1: skill that most of us were not taught. And like
Speaker 1: any learned skill, we need, we need to practice it,
Speaker 1: we need to be taught it, and most of.
Speaker 2: Us weren't taught how to talk about sex.
Speaker 1: In fact, most people I know, myself included, were out
Speaker 1: having sex long before I developed the skills to.
Speaker 2: Talk about it.
Speaker 1: The final thing, though, I would say that's a barrier
Speaker 1: to talking about sex, and I think it might be
Speaker 1: the biggest one I see in my practice, is all
Speaker 1: the emotion that goes with this topic. It is such
Speaker 1: a fraud topic for couples. It generates so much anxiety.
Speaker 1: People are so afraid of what they might come up
Speaker 1: against in terms of am I going to be judged, rejected, abandoned, hurt,
Speaker 1: feel ashamed, laughed at. It's a pretty high risk, high
Speaker 1: stakes conversation to have if you aren't that familiar with
Speaker 1: it or you've never had it before. So I really
Speaker 1: have a lot of empathy and compassion for people who
Speaker 1: are struggling to navigate communication in this space. It is
Speaker 1: such a fraud topic for individuals, let alone couples who
Speaker 1: are then bringing two sets of stuff to the conversation.
Speaker 4: What are some myths about the sexual desires that you
Speaker 4: wish more people understood.
Speaker 2: One of the.
Speaker 1: Myths that I think is out there about sexual desires
Speaker 1: is that fantasy and the things that we might enjoy
Speaker 1: in our erotic mind are necessarily things that we want
Speaker 1: to translate into action. That is not necessarily the case.
Speaker 1: So I would want people to understand that fantasy is
Speaker 1: a place for exploration and imagination and it doesn't necessarily
Speaker 1: mean we actually.
Speaker 2: Want to do those things.
Speaker 1: So I would really love to encourage people to explore
Speaker 1: fantasy more, share them with a partner if they trust
Speaker 1: them be willing to play with them and play with
Speaker 1: these ideas of things that we find erotic and arousing.
Speaker 2: That would be one myth.
Speaker 1: Another myth I would want people to know, I guess,
Speaker 1: just more broadly, is that whatever you're into, I promise
Speaker 1: you're not the first person that's into it. And if
Speaker 1: ever you need any proof of that, you can absolutely
Speaker 1: go and look up any fantasy that you've had, any thought,
Speaker 1: any any desire that you've come up with. I promise
Speaker 1: you'll find like a category for it somewhere on the internet,
Speaker 1: because there are other people that are into it too.
Speaker 1: So whatever you're into, A promise, it's not that unique.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and probably exactly as you were saying, you know,
Speaker 3: and across the ages that we've spoken about this before,
Speaker 3: that it's the kinks have been happening for many, many men,
Speaker 3: any hundreds of years.
Speaker 1: Actually, Yes, absolutely, yes, we're not actually as like creative
Speaker 1: or imaginative. I think that as we think we are. Yes,
Speaker 1: most of this stuff has been around a long time.
Speaker 1: I mean, even ideas that we think are reasonably new
Speaker 1: around relationships. If I take for example, non monogamy and polyamory,
Speaker 1: it feels like non monogamy is really having a moment.
Speaker 1: It's certainly becoming a more a relationshipture, a relationship structure
Speaker 1: that I am seeing more and more from my clinics.
Speaker 1: But actually, monogamy isn't really that traditional. So the structures
Speaker 1: of non monogamy in relationships and having multiple people more
Speaker 1: than two people in your relationship structure is actually very,
Speaker 1: very old. It's been around a really long time, so
Speaker 1: it's a really nice example of what you're talking about.
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, many people have had sexual experiences, whether it's been
Speaker 3: abuse as a child, or it's been a sexual assault,
Speaker 3: or however it's played itself out, or they've been shamed
Speaker 3: deeply in a place of their sexuality. How do you
Speaker 3: work with people when they're adults struggling with that kind
Speaker 3: of trauma and it's affecting their relationship in the present moment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, I think you know where I start with.
Speaker 1: I do a lot of trauma work in my practice,
Speaker 1: and where it's really important to start with is unpacking
Speaker 1: some of that shame and why that's older and why
Speaker 1: and how that's been carried into the current relationship and
Speaker 1: helping people really unpack and process things that might have
Speaker 1: happened to them in the past that are showing up
Speaker 1: and affecting their current relationships. When I use that word process,
Speaker 1: when we use that in a trauma context, what we're
Speaker 1: talking about there is helping the memory of a past
Speaker 1: event get successfully processed in our long term memory. Trauma
Speaker 1: memories can get kind of stuck in our body. You've
Speaker 1: probably heard that kind of language around trauma getting stored
Speaker 1: in the body.
Speaker 2: When it gets kind of stuck in.
Speaker 1: The body like that, it means it's really susceptible to
Speaker 1: being triggered. It's like it's kind of like, you know,
Speaker 1: getting an electric shock. Something happens today that reminds my
Speaker 1: nervous system of a past trauma. It's really easy to
Speaker 1: kind of get that electric shock, that zap of recognition
Speaker 1: and reminder that floods my nervous system, and my nervous
Speaker 1: system thinks this is just like that other time, and
Speaker 1: its senses that we're under threat.
Speaker 2: So part of my work when I work with trauma
Speaker 2: is to.
Speaker 1: Help people successfully process past traumas, get them filed away
Speaker 1: where they should be, into long term memory, so people
Speaker 1: are more able to stay regulated in the present moment.
Speaker 1: But the other thing I would say about that when
Speaker 1: it comes to sex, is that it wouldn't be uncommon
Speaker 1: for me to suggest people take sex or certain sex
Speaker 1: acts off the table whilst they are doing that work,
Speaker 1: because nothing good happens if we are pushing through sexual
Speaker 1: experiences that are really distressing or really unwanted. I'm not
Speaker 1: talking about nonconsensual experiences obviously, obviously that goes without saying, but.
Speaker 2: I'm talking about the sex that is unwanted and.
Speaker 1: He's maybe been done from a place of obligation or
Speaker 1: thinking I should Pushing through those kinds of experiences can
Speaker 1: be really harmful and really re traumatizing.
Speaker 4: Interesting. What's a totally normal, but I guess surprisingly controversial
Speaker 4: topic in your work.
Speaker 1: It's sex education in terms of a fantasy or anything, well.
Speaker 4: Kind of anything what comes to mind. You know, you
Speaker 4: think it's normal, but it's viewed as controversial.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mentioned non monogamy before.
Speaker 1: I would say that that is a relationship structure that
Speaker 1: a few years ago I would say I didn't really
Speaker 1: know any one that was practicing non monogamy openly in
Speaker 1: their relationship, And now now I would say that is
Speaker 1: becoming far more mainstream. And in fact, there was a
Speaker 1: research study done recently, it was in the US that
Speaker 1: indicated one in ten research participants would be interested in
Speaker 1: having a relationship that involves some form of non monogamy.
Speaker 1: So it's actually quite a popular and relationship structure that
Speaker 1: is of interest. It's estimated at the moment in the US,
Speaker 1: and also similar numbers in Australia that somewhere in the
Speaker 1: vicinity of about four percent of relationships are currently openly
Speaker 1: ethically non monogamous. I'm not talking about infidelity, ethically openly
Speaker 1: non monogamous, and I myself have lived experience of a
Speaker 1: variety of relationship structures, including ethical non monogamy, and so
Speaker 1: I feel quite connected to that community, and I would
Speaker 1: say that is a topic that I get questions about
Speaker 1: in my practice. Now more and moreeople are very interested
Speaker 1: to know what's available to them. And I'm so excited
Speaker 1: by this because I love not because I think no
Speaker 1: monogamy is for everyone, but because I do think it's
Speaker 1: wonderful to consider our relationships with intentionality. If I choose
Speaker 1: monogamy or not, making that choice intentionally rather than just
Speaker 1: thinking it's something I have to do as a default,
Speaker 1: and that spirit of intentionality is beautiful to bring to
Speaker 1: our relationships and.
Speaker 3: Our sex lives as far as like, you know, we
Speaker 3: touched on sort of sex education and earlier. But where
Speaker 3: do you think we're at with sex education and our kids.
Speaker 3: You know, everyone's talking about this show Adolescence, and you know,
Speaker 3: it's very very hot topic right now, and really it's
Speaker 3: been alarming to watch that. But I think we've kind
Speaker 3: of known a little bit the effect of social media
Speaker 3: where our kids are learning about sex, particularly our young boys.
Speaker 3: Where is sex education now do you feel in our schools?
Speaker 3: And does it need a complete overhaul?
Speaker 1: Yeah, such a big question, And yes, I'm actually delighted
Speaker 1: that it's that it's a hot topic for all the
Speaker 1: reasons you alluded to. Our sex education model at the
Speaker 1: moment is unfortunately really risk based. So a lot of
Speaker 1: the messaging that young people are getting is that sex
Speaker 1: is a risky activity, right in that you are at
Speaker 1: risk of getting pregnant, or getting someone pregnant, contracting an STI,
Speaker 1: or at risk of assaulting someone or misreading signs of
Speaker 1: consent and nonconsent or being assaulted. So these are some
Speaker 1: of the risky messages that young people tell me they.
Speaker 2: Are getting about sex.
Speaker 1: So they are getting education about minimizing the risks, right,
Speaker 1: So they're getting education, in some cases reasonably good education
Speaker 1: about minimizing the risks of sex. The bit that is
Speaker 1: missing from our sex education is, of course, the conversation
Speaker 1: about respect, fun, pleasure, and communication. These are the things
Speaker 1: that are missing about sex. So I am not surprised
Speaker 1: that young people are going out into the world as
Speaker 1: young adults wondering about how they can make sex as
Speaker 1: safe as possible, but not really asking questions about pleasure.
Speaker 2: How can I ask for what I want?
Speaker 1: How can I have a good time, How can I
Speaker 1: get to move my body? These are the questions that
Speaker 1: come up later in life and unfortunately missing from our
Speaker 1: current sex education.
Speaker 4: Laura, what effect does porn have not only with our kids,
Speaker 4: but also in our adult sexual relationships.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, this is a great question, because of course
Speaker 1: porn news is prolific and it's everywhere. One of the
Speaker 1: things to really understand about pornography use is that the
Speaker 1: way that it is used in the context of masturbation
Speaker 1: to achieve arousal and typically orgasm, that can become a
Speaker 1: really habituated relationship.
Speaker 2: So what I mean by that is those neural pathways can.
Speaker 1: Get really strong around this is what somebody needs to
Speaker 1: achieve a certain level of arousal.
Speaker 2: To achieve orgasm.
Speaker 1: So that when people ask me about kind of addiction,
Speaker 1: I often explain that there's lots of gray before addiction,
Speaker 1: and what that looks like is more that habituation where
Speaker 1: it feels kind of compulsive, like I have to The
Speaker 1: other thing that can happen with pornography use, and I
Speaker 1: think this is where it can have really unwanted consequences,
Speaker 1: is that we can, through that habituation process, we can
Speaker 1: require sometimes more and more of something to achieve that
Speaker 1: same level of arousal. And unfortunately, with pornography use, what
Speaker 1: that can mean that we're seeing is people might seek
Speaker 1: more and more extreme content in order to achieve that
Speaker 1: same level of arousal. So the types of videos they
Speaker 1: were maybe consuming initially kind of feel like then they
Speaker 1: don't quite do it, and so someone will go seeking
Speaker 1: something more extreme. One of the things that happens here
Speaker 1: when we are sexually aroused, so when the arousal response
Speaker 1: is happening in our body, happening in our nervous system,
Speaker 1: is that it turns off some of the things that
Speaker 1: would signal things like discussed, So our disgust response kind
Speaker 1: of turns off when we're sexually aroused, and that can
Speaker 1: mean sometimes sometimes people will say things or think things
Speaker 1: or do things during sex during arousals that afterwards they're like, oh, God,
Speaker 1: like was that me?
Speaker 2: What was I? Even? What was I saying during that? Right?
Speaker 2: Who was that person?
Speaker 1: But this can become really problematic for people when it
Speaker 1: comes to pornography use, because they might consume pornography, particularly
Speaker 1: very extreme types of pornography that afterwards they feel a
Speaker 1: lot of shame and guilt about consuming. So that is
Speaker 1: some of the ways in which pornography use can become
Speaker 1: really really problematic and really.
Speaker 2: Like unpleasant, unwanted.
Speaker 1: I work with a lot of young adults who talk
Speaker 1: to me about their pornography use, leaving them feeling some
Speaker 1: really yucky feelings after engaging with it, and that's not
Speaker 1: how we want people to feel after they've engaged in pleasure,
Speaker 1: not at all.
Speaker 3: It's so interesting. I've never heard it explained like that.
Speaker 3: That's really fascinating. Can you talk about the difference about
Speaker 3: there's a difference between spontaneous and responsive desire and how
Speaker 3: communication plays a role in both of those can you
Speaker 3: explain what they are firstly and how it plays out
Speaker 3: in a relationship.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, desire, which is our wish and our want for sex,
Speaker 1: our drive for sex, our inclination towards having sex. Issues
Speaker 1: of desire, low desire, mismatched desire are actually the number
Speaker 1: one reason people seek sex therapy. So I understand desire
Speaker 1: in a relationship is a huge topic and feels like
Speaker 1: a huge problem for people. So I do like to
Speaker 1: explain this idea of spontaneous and responsive desire. Spontaneous desire
Speaker 1: is what I think people think of when they think
Speaker 1: of desire. It's that, you know, I'm just going about
Speaker 1: my day and I have a sexy thought or urge
Speaker 1: or feeling, or I think, damn, I wish my partner
Speaker 1: was home, or I can't wait till he gets home
Speaker 1: and we're going to do this and that tonight. So
Speaker 1: that is spontaneous desire. Responsive desire, on the other hand,
Speaker 1: is what happens when I hear people say things like
Speaker 1: I don't really think about sex during the day. I
Speaker 1: feel like I could kind of take it or leave it.
Speaker 1: But when I start to engage with sexual stimuli, the
Speaker 1: things that kind of get me going, whether that's a
Speaker 1: toy or pornography or my partner or whatever it is.
Speaker 1: I start to engage with those things, and then the
Speaker 1: wish the desire shows up. Once I'm kind of getting going,
Speaker 1: my body is like, oh yeah, I kind of like this.
Speaker 1: I kind of feel like this now, I kind of
Speaker 1: want this now. What we now know about desire is
Speaker 1: that the majority of desire experiences in adults, particularly adults
Speaker 1: in long term relationships, is actually experienced responsively. So most
Speaker 1: of our desire is responsive, meaning that it'll only show
Speaker 1: up when it's got something to respond to. There's some
Speaker 1: studies that have come out recently that estimate that for women,
Speaker 1: about seventy five percent of their experiences of desire are responsive,
Speaker 1: and for men the number is still close to fifty percent,
Speaker 1: About forty five to fifty percent of the time desire
Speaker 1: is responsive for men. So we know that a huge
Speaker 1: amount of the ways in which we will desire sex
Speaker 1: or want sex are really when it's got some pleasure
Speaker 1: to respond to. The desire will show up when it's
Speaker 1: got something to show up for. So I really like
Speaker 1: to help people who come to me for issues of
Speaker 1: desire to really kind of slip it on its head
Speaker 1: rather than working on wanting sex more, Let's give it
Speaker 1: something to want, Like, let's give your desire something to
Speaker 1: want and something worth showing up for.
Speaker 3: Just bringing it back to my age group again, my
Speaker 3: my lovely middle aged women friends who are either pery
Speaker 3: or postmenopausal. A lot of them talk about about the
Speaker 3: spontaneous has completely gone. And you know what's the key?
Speaker 3: What how do I get back into wanting to have
Speaker 3: sex again? You know, and I know that that again
Speaker 3: it's as you would know, it's it is multi layered
Speaker 3: because you know, menopausal women sometimes things happen with dryness
Speaker 3: and it becomes painful. But if you're you know, there's
Speaker 3: women that I know who've got young kids still, they're
Speaker 3: very busy, they're working, they've got a juggle and juggle
Speaker 3: and juggle of enormous things that they're trying to cope with,
Speaker 3: and they often feel like their husband just thinks about sex,
Speaker 3: where they're thinking about the kids, they're aging parents, their work,
Speaker 3: what they're having for dinner. Like how does a woman
Speaker 3: get to the point where they even feel like having
Speaker 3: responsive desire where it's like I don't even know where
Speaker 3: to begin to become responsive to my husband.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, the example that you gave the picture
Speaker 1: painted is such a common one. I really resonate with
Speaker 1: what you're describing there that when you describe that to me,
Speaker 1: I go, yeah, I don't know that I would feel
Speaker 1: like sex much either if I didn't feel like I
Speaker 1: could make room for pleasure. But also even just connection
Speaker 1: to my body, because that's something I see happening a lot,
Speaker 1: particularly for women at this stage of life, which is
Speaker 1: me too. I'm in my forty so this is really
Speaker 1: speaking to me too, this busyness and this disconnection from
Speaker 1: our body and our sensory experience. So something I like
Speaker 1: to work with a lot, particularly for women, is this
Speaker 1: reconnection to sensation and moving the focus from how does
Speaker 1: my body look to how does this sensation make my
Speaker 1: body feel? And I actually get because I really I
Speaker 1: don't really understand the busyness of people's lives.
Speaker 2: I actually get people to.
Speaker 1: Practice this in really small, practical ways outside of the bedroom. First,
Speaker 1: this is just about noticing sensation, noticing what is it
Speaker 1: like to feel the water on my body in the shower,
Speaker 1: or to feel the sun on my skin, or to
Speaker 1: smell my morning coffee, or to dance and move my
Speaker 1: body to a certain song. Like this reconnection back to
Speaker 1: our senses, because most of us day to day are
Speaker 1: actually moving through the world pretty disconnected from my body.
Speaker 2: And I'm sure you've had this experience. I know I have.
Speaker 1: If I take a moment to kind of breathe and
Speaker 1: tune into my body, I often notice sensation I wasn't
Speaker 1: aware of.
Speaker 2: It might be neutral or positive or negative. It could be, oh,
Speaker 2: I've actually got a headache, or actually.
Speaker 1: You know, my back hurts, or whatever it is. But
Speaker 1: we're soorry disconnected from our body, we're not even noticing
Speaker 1: some of the information it's trying to give us. So
Speaker 1: this practicing, this habit of reconnecting with our senses but
Speaker 1: also reconnecting to just those micro moments of pleasurable sensation,
Speaker 1: that is where I would get people to start.
Speaker 4: I love that. It's great action. It's a great action
Speaker 4: thing to do. So emotional safety plays a great role
Speaker 4: in sexual communication. How how can couples create that space
Speaker 4: or how you know some action items on that to
Speaker 4: create that emotional safe space for each other.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, So there are a couple of really practical things
Speaker 1: I like to give couples particularly if they've gone through
Speaker 1: a period of feeling a bit disconnected or just falling
Speaker 1: into those habits we fall into where communication has maybe
Speaker 1: become a bit transactional and a bit logistic based rather
Speaker 1: than really kind of connecting.
Speaker 2: A couple of.
Speaker 1: Really practical things I like people to try are a
Speaker 1: daily appreciation practice. So appreciation for our partner is actually
Speaker 1: a really big predictor of relationship success, but also sexual connection,
Speaker 1: like genuinely appreciating things about each other, liking things about
Speaker 1: each other, and putting words to that. So this is
Speaker 1: a little bit different to gratitude. We're talking about noticing
Speaker 1: our partner right, noticing something they do, appreciating something that
Speaker 1: we've seen them do that day, like admiration.
Speaker 2: Admiration is a really nice word.
Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, this idea of something I've noticed that I've liked, appreciated, admired.
Speaker 1: Get people to share that with each other on a
Speaker 1: daily basis in the evening. Another really practical thing I
Speaker 1: would like people to bring into their partnered communication is curiosity.
Speaker 1: It's such a it's really like a lost in long
Speaker 1: term relationships, Like at the start of a relationship, we're
Speaker 1: so curious about our partner everything they say is so fascinating,
Speaker 1: and we turn over every you know, every little every
Speaker 1: little thing they share. We like hold it like a
Speaker 1: little precious jewel. But it doesn't take long before we're
Speaker 1: in that space where we are not really asking that
Speaker 1: many questions. Maybe we're making assumptions. Maybe they go to
Speaker 1: tell us something and we're like, yeah, yeah, you've told
Speaker 1: me already.
Speaker 2: I know that story.
Speaker 1: So I really understand falling falling into these habits.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know. Yeah, but oh my god, time you
Speaker 3: told me that in a day, Laura, in a day,
Speaker 3: I have to stop him.
Speaker 4: But it's so important to me. I do it ten
Speaker 4: times because she hasn't heard me the first second or
Speaker 4: seventh age. Yeah, give it another crack.
Speaker 3: Trust me, I've heard you, and we've had a conversation.
Speaker 3: And then I have to remind you, Honey, we had
Speaker 3: this conversation.
Speaker 4: You need some patience. You need to have some patience
Speaker 4: with your.
Speaker 2: Fellow I have.
Speaker 1: I have maybe something, a little, a little thing to
Speaker 1: kind of tuck into your mind to help you foster more.
Speaker 2: Curiosity is a term that I'm going to scratch.
Speaker 1: You're most welcome is a term I'm going to borrow
Speaker 1: from John and Julie Gotman, who if you're not familiar
Speaker 1: with them, yes we love them godmother and godfather of
Speaker 1: everything relationships and love. They talk about this concept of
Speaker 1: bids for connection. Bids for connection are those little things
Speaker 1: we do to connect, to reach out with our partner.
Speaker 1: And they give the example of like, imagine where you're
Speaker 1: sitting with your partner and you look out the wado
Speaker 1: and you see a boat right, and your partner's like, oh,
Speaker 1: look at that boat, and you go, oh yeah, you
Speaker 1: just go back to looking on your phone or reading
Speaker 1: or whatever you're doing yet to or you respond by going,
Speaker 1: look at that. Have you ever been on a sailboat?
Speaker 1: And maybe we could get a boat when we retire,
Speaker 1: and maybe we should sail And if you could sail anywhere,
Speaker 1: where would you go? And you connect and you respond
Speaker 1: to that bid. Now we each make bids for connection
Speaker 1: in really different ways. My partner makes bids for connection
Speaker 1: by sending me like videos, reels, meme stuff like that
Speaker 1: during the day, right, And often they're really unfunny. They're
Speaker 1: not funny, and I'm busy and I'm like not that interested.
Speaker 1: But I learnt the hard way when I responded poorly
Speaker 1: ones to these videos.
Speaker 2: I can't remember.
Speaker 1: It was along the lines of like whatever, or that's
Speaker 1: not funny or I'm not interested. And I was with
Speaker 1: him in the room and he looked really hurt. And
Speaker 1: it was then that I was like, this is not
Speaker 1: about the video. It doesn't really matter what's in the video.
Speaker 1: This is a bid for connection. When someone shares a video,
Speaker 1: they're like, look at this. I saw this, or it
Speaker 1: was funny or it was interesting, and I thought of you,
Speaker 1: and I want us to experience together this video. And
Speaker 1: that's what matters. How I respond is not about the video.
Speaker 1: It's about responding to him and his bid. And that's
Speaker 1: how we can foster more curiosity and connection with our partner.
Speaker 1: Really start to notice when they're making a bid, and
Speaker 1: be willing to respond to those bids really well. Most
Speaker 1: of the time we don't get it right all of
Speaker 1: the time, but most of the time.
Speaker 3: And those bids and those acknowledging the admiration, and you know, verbally,
Speaker 3: you know, saying those sorts of things, is that what
Speaker 3: you would call well, I was going to say the
Speaker 3: non verbal forms of sexual communication. I guess it's you
Speaker 3: are actually speaking, but it's I guess it's the non
Speaker 3: sexual bids for communication, isn't It's not necessarily you're not
Speaker 3: talking about sex, you're not flirting. It's just those bids
Speaker 3: for attachment and acknowledging what they are. And yeah, I
Speaker 3: love that.
Speaker 2: I think that's yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, and getting to your partner, like your experience matters
Speaker 1: to me, like what you think, right and what you
Speaker 1: feel and what you experience matters to me. And you
Speaker 1: can see how that could translate sexually. Pretty pretty obvious
Speaker 1: that that would translate sexually.
Speaker 3: So the non verbal forms of sexual communication, what is that?
Speaker 1: So nonverbal forms of sexual communication occur both in sex
Speaker 1: but also outside of the bedroom. So I'll start outside
Speaker 1: of the bedroom. That is pretty simple. That is, of course,
Speaker 1: different ways in which we touch and engage with our
Speaker 1: partner's bodies with intention, you know, intentional caressing, touching, whatever
Speaker 1: you've got consent for, you know, that kind of touch
Speaker 1: in sex though, and this is really what we're talking
Speaker 1: about here. We're really looking for those cues of is
Speaker 1: there that reciprocity? So what I mean by this is
Speaker 1: my partner turned towards me. Are we both reaching for
Speaker 1: each other? Are we making eye contact? Is their mutual
Speaker 1: energy exchange touch all of these kind of cues that
Speaker 1: we send to each other of like I'm in this,
Speaker 1: I'm engaged, I'm present, or I'm not. And I do
Speaker 1: this exercise sometimes with my young adult clients where I
Speaker 1: talk to them about when I'm talking about consent. I
Speaker 1: say to them, can you imagine a time that you
Speaker 1: might engage with someone sexually? And they're saying verbally that
Speaker 1: say yes, but you have a sense that it's a no,
Speaker 1: And they go, yeah, I can imagine that, and I go, okay,
Speaker 1: tell me how, Like what could you imagine would be
Speaker 1: happening that would give you that niggerly feeling in your body?
Speaker 1: This person doesn't really want this, and that's what they
Speaker 1: start to think about. They talk about, you know, body
Speaker 1: language and eye contact and are they.
Speaker 2: Touching me back?
Speaker 1: And if I pull away from kissing for a moment,
Speaker 1: do they lean in and keep it going or do
Speaker 1: they look relieved and take a break. You know, all
Speaker 1: of these little cues that we send each other of
Speaker 1: like I'm really enthusiastic and I want this, or actually
Speaker 1: I could.
Speaker 2: Leave this for now.
Speaker 1: These are really important too. We're talking about achievement really
Speaker 1: and These are really important skills to develop as part
Speaker 1: of your sexual communication.
Speaker 4: So how do you how do you counsel you know,
Speaker 4: couples that are the cues are being or maybe it's
Speaker 4: too sensitive, that one of them's being more sensitive than
Speaker 4: the other one to those cues.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I get.
Speaker 1: Them to reflect on real life experiences that they've had together.
Speaker 1: So tell me about times where you felt really connected
Speaker 1: or really present, or it felt really spicy, or like,
Speaker 1: what's the memory that sits there you lack, or that
Speaker 1: one time was really good And I get them to
Speaker 1: kind of unpack it or we get really kind of
Speaker 1: down into the nitty gritty of what was it that
Speaker 1: made that, you know, such a wonderful connective experience. Because
Speaker 1: partner sex is very rarely for people about the orgasm. Right,
Speaker 1: when I ask people why they have sex with their partner,
Speaker 1: it's not really about the orgasm because frankly, most people
Speaker 1: can get to orgasm quicker on their own. So if
Speaker 1: we were just trying to get to orgasm, we probably
Speaker 1: wouldn't bother involving a partner. So people are involving a
Speaker 1: partner because they want other emotional needs met, you know,
Speaker 1: they want the shared pleasure or the connection or the
Speaker 1: intimacy or the validation or the reassuredness or whatever it is.
Speaker 1: So when I get people to really unpack the experiences
Speaker 1: with their partner that felt really connective, that's usually when
Speaker 1: they'll start to offer some clues about nonverbally, what was
Speaker 1: happening that was really giving them that sense that this
Speaker 1: was a really engaged, connective experience, and we use that
Speaker 1: we build on that.
Speaker 3: Are they common like red flags in a couple's sexual
Speaker 3: communication that might indicate, oh, there's a lot more deeper
Speaker 3: issues at hand here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, certainly if one or both partners are finding
Speaker 1: the topic, you know, distressing, too distressing, So that's when
Speaker 1: someone might become what we call flooded. Really flooded is
Speaker 1: essentially a term to capture like an overwhelm of the
Speaker 1: nervous system, where once we're in that state, we kind
Speaker 1: of can't really do that well cognitively, we're too overwhelmed
Speaker 1: by our emotion once that is present. I mean, I
Speaker 1: encourage people anyway that if that happened in any conversation,
Speaker 1: you need to take a break, because nothing good happens
Speaker 1: when we are in that flooded state.
Speaker 2: But I would say. The other thing that is kind of.
Speaker 1: Something that we need to be addressed in communication is
Speaker 1: if people are reverting to what we call safety seeking behaviors.
Speaker 1: Safety seeking behaviors are the things that we do when
Speaker 1: we feel like we need to protect ourselves. So we
Speaker 1: do that when the topic is sensitive or we feel
Speaker 1: like we're being criticized or something like that, and we'll
Speaker 1: go to these safety seeking behaviors if we're not aware
Speaker 1: of them. Some examples of safety seeking include shutting down,
Speaker 1: stone walling, defensiveness, yelling, blaming, criticizing, all of these things
Speaker 1: that we do that are designed to just protect ourselves.
Speaker 1: They are the opposite of some of the things we
Speaker 1: were talking about before, like curiosity or appreciation or admiration
Speaker 1: or positive touch validation. They are the polar opposites.
Speaker 4: There, Laura, how can individuals who feel shame and or
Speaker 4: embarrassment around sex begin to shift from that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think this is a great question, because, of course,
Speaker 1: shame is a challenge for so many people, and a
Speaker 1: lot of people have stuff, shame stuff attached to sex.
Speaker 2: I do think it can be.
Speaker 1: Really helpful to cultivate a very sex positive culture for yourself,
Speaker 1: a sex positive environment. So that can be things like
Speaker 1: following certain people on social media, listening to podcasts, attending workshops,
Speaker 1: having more open conversations with people you trust, just cultivating
Speaker 1: environment where you are gently but more exposed to sex positivity,
Speaker 1: and that can help you start to unlearn maybe some
Speaker 1: of the sex negative ideas or scripts, the things that
Speaker 1: have triggered that shame. It can help you start to
Speaker 1: unlearn them, but in a really safe, contained kind of way.
Speaker 1: So that would be one of the first steps that
Speaker 1: I would want for people. The second step is going
Speaker 1: to be though, that if you're in a relationship that
Speaker 1: open communication with a partner, and if you need skills
Speaker 1: to build sexual communication, there's loads of resources, of course
Speaker 1: out there.
Speaker 2: And professionals you can see. But being able to cultivate
Speaker 2: a spirit of.
Speaker 1: Openness, of curiosity, of growth, and of play in your
Speaker 1: relationship is going to be so rewarding and healing. You know,
Speaker 1: that's where we heal. Like humans are connective social creatures.
Speaker 1: We can't heal on our own, and we don't thrive
Speaker 1: and grow on our own.
Speaker 2: We thrive in our relationships.
Speaker 3: Laura, thank you so much. Can people can reach you
Speaker 3: on your website? They can book in with you to
Speaker 3: see you, and obviously I don't know if you're busy,
Speaker 3: busy busy. I know you've got clients lined up after us,
Speaker 3: but we can reach you on your website. Do you
Speaker 3: do retreat or anything like that as well.
Speaker 2: I do a range of things. I do therapy and
Speaker 2: coaching packages.
Speaker 1: But I also I really understand that therapy isn't kind
Speaker 1: of suitable or accessible for everyone.
Speaker 2: So I actually also.
Speaker 1: Have created a online membership program where people can access
Speaker 1: me and my content, videos, blogs, webinars, other ways of
Speaker 1: working with me for.
Speaker 2: A couple of dollars a month.
Speaker 1: So I felt like this was something this was really
Speaker 1: close to my heart because I knew therapy wasn't suitable
Speaker 1: or accessible for everyone, and I wanted people to still
Speaker 1: have access to really high quality education and resources. So
Speaker 1: that's another way people can work with me, and they
Speaker 1: can check that out if anything from today has resonated
Speaker 1: for them.
Speaker 4: Fantastic, and we do that where at Laura Lee dot com.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I have a website which is Laura Lee dot
Speaker 1: com dot au and on Instagram you can find me
Speaker 1: at Laura Lee Sexology.
Speaker 3: Fantastic.
Speaker 4: We'll put all that info as well. In our show notes,
Speaker 4: thank you.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for this. This was so fun.
Speaker 3: And thank you yeah, thanks for all your wisdom. You've
Speaker 3: really explained things in a very easy going, simple way.
Speaker 3: That's been really fascinating. Thanks so much for your time.
Speaker 2: Oh I'm so pleased.
Speaker 3: Thank you again.