1
00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:06,200
Speaker 1: Let's have a chat about toxic masculinity and a lot

2
00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:11,560
Speaker 1: of problems come out of that, particularly domestic violence if

3
00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:15,240
Speaker 1: this isn't addressed at an early age. Now, there's a

4
00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,800
Speaker 1: program being developed by monash Uni to help teachers who

5
00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:24,160
Speaker 1: identify boys at risk of toxic masculinity to allow teachers

6
00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,200
Speaker 1: to tackle it. Hopefully nipping it in the bud would

7
00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,800
Speaker 1: be the aim. Doctor Stephanie Westcott is co Chief Investigator,

8
00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:34,680
Speaker 1: Faculty of Education at monash Uni. Stephanie, good morning, Thank

9
00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:35,400
Speaker 1: you for your time.

10
00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:37,240
Speaker 2: Just good morning.

11
00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:40,760
Speaker 1: Toxic masculinity. Give us a definition of that to start with.

12
00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:45,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, so when we talk about the problem, we tend

13
00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:48,520
Speaker 2: to define it a little bit differently because toxic masculinity

14
00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,040
Speaker 2: can sort of misrepresent what we're talking about a little bit.

15
00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:57,440
Speaker 2: But basically, we're talking about an increase in disrespectful and

16
00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:03,000
Speaker 2: problematic attitudes towards girls than women that are we believe

17
00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:07,000
Speaker 2: influenced by online social media figures.

18
00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,240
Speaker 1: Okay, how do you go about addressing that? Then in

19
00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:12,800
Speaker 1: the class? How do teachers identify that?

20
00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:17,720
Speaker 2: Firstly, then, well, they identify it because they've been experiencing it.

21
00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:20,640
Speaker 2: So we did a study last year where we interviewed

22
00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,040
Speaker 2: thirty women working in schools across Australia and they said

23
00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:26,360
Speaker 2: there's been a really distinct increase in problematic behavior and

24
00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,640
Speaker 2: attitudes from boys towards women and girls. So we've seen

25
00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:33,440
Speaker 2: an increase in incidents of sexual harassment, sexism and mithogyny

26
00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,399
Speaker 2: and schools that are affecting the girls there as well. Obviously,

27
00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,200
Speaker 2: so teachers are really easily able to identify this problem

28
00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:43,600
Speaker 2: because they're actually feeling it and experiencing it daily in

29
00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:44,679
Speaker 2: some cases.

30
00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:49,080
Speaker 1: So then they and are presumably it has to be ongoing,

31
00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:50,880
Speaker 1: not just one incident or is one enough?

32
00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,440
Speaker 2: Well one can be enough, because it's a pretty disturbing

33
00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:58,240
Speaker 2: an upsetting thing if you do experience it. But most

34
00:01:58,240 --> 00:01:59,840
Speaker 2: of the women that we speak to say that this

35
00:01:59,920 --> 00:02:01,600
Speaker 2: is an ongoing issue there.

36
00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:07,400
Speaker 1: So they know the kids are responsible or affected by this.

37
00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:09,480
Speaker 1: How do you change that behavior?

38
00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,320
Speaker 2: So we believe that education is really important. I mean,

39
00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,120
Speaker 2: it's pretty obvious. We send our kids to particular schools

40
00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,320
Speaker 2: because we want we like the values and omission that

41
00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,320
Speaker 2: their schools about. So we believe schools are a really

42
00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,200
Speaker 2: good place to do this work. And often because kids

43
00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:27,680
Speaker 2: spend so much time there and what's really important is

44
00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:30,160
Speaker 2: the amount of time we spend doing this work and

45
00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:34,040
Speaker 2: how often theage is repeated. So where as part of

46
00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,440
Speaker 2: this project, we're obviously first going to be speaking to

47
00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,120
Speaker 2: boys to understand the kind of things they're seeing online

48
00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:41,639
Speaker 2: and how it might be influencing them and how they're

49
00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:43,880
Speaker 2: feeling about it. And then we're going to work with

50
00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:48,160
Speaker 2: teachers to develop a professional learning program that's going to

51
00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:52,440
Speaker 2: train teachers to work with boys on I guess critiquing

52
00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,679
Speaker 2: and disrupting some of these problematic attitudes as they begin

53
00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:56,240
Speaker 2: to develop.

54
00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:03,120
Speaker 1: Kids affected by this presumably mid teens, by the ages

55
00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:05,200
Speaker 1: i'd be guessing at this, I mean, it would be

56
00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:07,400
Speaker 1: really concerning if you're a teacher and you're seeing the

57
00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:09,600
Speaker 1: sort of behavior in kids age seven, for instance.

58
00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,560
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and unfortunately, we have heard from primary school teachers,

59
00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:17,840
Speaker 2: and we've also spoken to people in early childhood settings

60
00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:20,560
Speaker 2: who have told us that children as young as ree

61
00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:26,079
Speaker 2: and four are demonstrating from disturbing behaviors. So, I mean,

62
00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:29,960
Speaker 2: it's never too early to begin talking about respectful and

63
00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,040
Speaker 2: healthy relationships and how to be you know, fully realized

64
00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,600
Speaker 2: human being. It's capable of the relationships with other people,

65
00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:40,120
Speaker 2: but Yeah. Unfortunately, we spoke to one woman for us

66
00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,280
Speaker 2: study who's working in a primary setting and it's certainly

67
00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,400
Speaker 2: not restricted only to the secondary schools.

68
00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:50,400
Speaker 1: So okay, it does it matter on the type of school,

69
00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,400
Speaker 1: public school, private school. I don't imagine there's any correlation

70
00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:54,800
Speaker 1: really in terms of the behavior.

71
00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,520
Speaker 2: No, you're right, it doesn't matter. We've found this problem

72
00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:03,120
Speaker 2: exists from you know, real stings in Queensland into elite

73
00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:06,520
Speaker 2: private schools in Melbourne and Sydney, so it's really across

74
00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:06,920
Speaker 2: the board.

75
00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:13,000
Speaker 1: What makes is it curiosity that drives a child to

76
00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,360
Speaker 1: look at the internet in this way and take those messages?

77
00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:19,559
Speaker 1: Because if you tackle it in school, and okay, if

78
00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:21,919
Speaker 1: there's a peer group thing happening within the school, I

79
00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,560
Speaker 1: suppose that's one way of tackling it. But if a

80
00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:27,479
Speaker 1: child has been influenced by friends or cousins or whatever

81
00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,120
Speaker 1: the case may be outside of that school environment, what's

82
00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:35,200
Speaker 1: to say then he's not continually having those influences pushed

83
00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,240
Speaker 1: on him outside of whatever program is on offer to

84
00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:38,680
Speaker 1: help him.

85
00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:42,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true. We know that this influence comes from everywhere.

86
00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,720
Speaker 2: It's from our family, it's from our culture, our society, music, television,

87
00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,839
Speaker 2: these part of problematic views are really baked into our society,

88
00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:53,800
Speaker 2: which is why this is such an issue, and which

89
00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:56,600
Speaker 2: is why we're doing everything we can to try and

90
00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:01,000
Speaker 2: tackle this poliitically and rigorously. Because we know that sort

91
00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,800
Speaker 2: of one off sessions or short term programs, which is

92
00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:06,880
Speaker 2: what schools try and use at the moment, the evidence

93
00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:09,360
Speaker 2: just doesn't exist that they are actually doing any work.

94
00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,240
Speaker 2: We need much more long term intervention. We need, you know,

95
00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,120
Speaker 2: a whole society approach, a community approach.

96
00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,599
Speaker 1: What about families coming together and helping out here? And

97
00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:23,120
Speaker 1: I suppose mums, particularly seeing we're talking about toxic masculinity,

98
00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:25,320
Speaker 1: or maybe it's dad's or perhaps just both, I mean

99
00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,440
Speaker 1: both would make sense obviously to both put their own

100
00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:29,120
Speaker 1: input into it.

101
00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:34,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, certainly both. Certainly community approach and you know, the

102
00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:38,280
Speaker 2: current curriculum that's available to school's respectful relationships education does

103
00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:41,680
Speaker 2: advocate a whole of school and community approach. And we

104
00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,240
Speaker 2: absolutely do need parents support. Doesn't matter whether it's mum

105
00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:49,000
Speaker 2: or dad or other family figures, but we do need

106
00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:51,760
Speaker 2: these messages to be coming from everywhere if we're going

107
00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:55,479
Speaker 2: to try and you know, stop this from happening in

108
00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:56,880
Speaker 2: another generation of young people.

109
00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,320
Speaker 1: Of all the things you mentioned, the influences music really

110
00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,599
Speaker 1: jumped out to me because you've only got to put

111
00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:07,520
Speaker 1: on a music hit video show and geez, some of

112
00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:11,080
Speaker 1: the messages in those music clips are just disturbing the

113
00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:12,760
Speaker 1: way they portray women, particularly.

114
00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:15,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, that's been in a site for a long time.

115
00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:17,640
Speaker 2: I remember growing up in the nineties and I look

116
00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:19,440
Speaker 2: back now and think, God, what was I looking at?

117
00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:23,159
Speaker 2: So I think teaching boys and young women how to

118
00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:25,280
Speaker 2: look at these things critically and go hot, on a minute,

119
00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:27,600
Speaker 2: is this healthy? Is this a reflection of the way

120
00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:29,960
Speaker 2: that I want the world to look. So it's not

121
00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,279
Speaker 2: that we can't ever stop young people from seeing these

122
00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:34,840
Speaker 2: things or being exposed to them. That it's rather giving

123
00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:36,479
Speaker 2: them the tools to look critically at them.

124
00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:38,400
Speaker 1: That's so important.

125
00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:38,600
Speaker 2: Is that?

126
00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,240
Speaker 1: So think about what you're seeing and we all get

127
00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,800
Speaker 1: that as older people, but at the age of being

128
00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,279
Speaker 1: a teenager you don't really So is that resonating with kids?

129
00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:53,479
Speaker 2: I think it's resonating for certain reasons for certain kids. So,

130
00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,919
Speaker 2: I mean we're talking about social media specifically. We know

131
00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,400
Speaker 2: that algorithms play a huge role in this problem. Boys

132
00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:04,839
Speaker 2: accounts are more likely to be infiltrated by manisphere content

133
00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,200
Speaker 2: and messages, and sometimes it's of interest to them because

134
00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,120
Speaker 2: these things might speak to them if they're feeling a

135
00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,120
Speaker 2: little bit lonely or a little bit patronistic about the future,

136
00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,840
Speaker 2: a little bit disaffected, then they can just be absolutely

137
00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:22,760
Speaker 2: saturated with you know, really unhelpful, really genti gentimental messages,

138
00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,120
Speaker 2: So it really can be anywhere and everywhere that might

139
00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:28,440
Speaker 2: just push on a nerve, you know, or push on

140
00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,760
Speaker 2: a saw point for the boy, and then that's sort

141
00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:35,520
Speaker 2: of a gateway to really this stuff being speaking to

142
00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:37,920
Speaker 2: them quite pervasively and powerfully.

143
00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,080
Speaker 1: Do we need to train teachers how to do this?

144
00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,320
Speaker 2: I mean, teachers already do fantastic work. We know that

145
00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,760
Speaker 2: teachers are really equipped talking through difficult stuff with kids,

146
00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:54,760
Speaker 2: but they do need support. They're really busy and they

147
00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:56,320
Speaker 2: don't always have the time to go, hey, what's a

148
00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:58,320
Speaker 2: great resource for this or what's a good approach for this.

149
00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:00,920
Speaker 2: So we figure if we can provide this for them

150
00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,000
Speaker 2: and it's there and ready to go, and it's got

151
00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,000
Speaker 2: an evidence space and it's been trialed, then that will really.

152
00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,600
Speaker 1: Support them, because the last thing we need is more

153
00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,280
Speaker 1: teachers leaving and if they feel the situation is so

154
00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:15,760
Speaker 1: bad and they do, particularly female teachers. That's just really poor.

155
00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,080
Speaker 1: What doesn't matter who it is, obviously.

156
00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, we certainly can't afford to lose more. And we

157
00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:22,720
Speaker 2: had two women out of the thirty that we spoke

158
00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,800
Speaker 2: to leave their schools because of this. Yeah, we just

159
00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:27,480
Speaker 2: I mean, we don't know. We don't have the data

160
00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:30,840
Speaker 2: on why teachers leave. It would be great to have

161
00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:32,600
Speaker 2: that data so we could say, look, this is the

162
00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:35,040
Speaker 2: identifiable problem that we have had to fix this. But

163
00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,559
Speaker 2: we do know that if women are experiencing this from

164
00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:39,079
Speaker 2: their day to day work, I mean, who would want

165
00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:40,720
Speaker 2: to Who would want to put up with that on

166
00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:42,920
Speaker 2: a day to day basis? It just wouldn't be tolerated

167
00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,720
Speaker 2: in so many other industries, and so it just can't

168
00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:46,720
Speaker 2: be tolerated in school.

169
00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:48,480
Speaker 1: No, Well, that's the last place in toil. I mean,

170
00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,920
Speaker 1: that's where you learn, apart from the home. And you know,

171
00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,160
Speaker 1: we know not every home is a welcoming, safe space

172
00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:59,079
Speaker 1: sadly for many kids. But second is is school, and

173
00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:01,720
Speaker 1: that's weird. Do your life's learning and off we go

174
00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,640
Speaker 1: from there. So I think it's important that something has

175
00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:06,760
Speaker 1: done in that regard. No, doubt appreciate your time.

176
00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:08,360
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.

177
00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:12,880
Speaker 1: Doctor Stephanie Westcott from the Faculty of Education, monash Uni.

178
00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:17,360
Speaker 1: The project to help teachers tackle toxic masculinity in schools