Speaker 1: I'll get a team. It's Craig Anthony Harper, it's you project,
Speaker 1: It's doctor Sam Casey. What's your middle name? Sam? I
Speaker 1: have this bad habit. What is it? Sherry Sherry, Doctor
Speaker 1: Sam Sherry Casey, Craig Anthony Harper, Sam Sherry Casey. Hi, Doc,
Speaker 1: How it's Thursday afternoon? Well, it's Thursday evening here in
Speaker 1: the Eastern States. It's afternoon where you are? How you?
Speaker 1: How's your week been so far? We're sliding towards the
Speaker 1: big fat red feller in the suit and the reindeer.
Speaker 1: It's only six days away?
Speaker 2: How we six days away? And I have like a
Speaker 2: box of presents that have arrived from my kids and
Speaker 2: I haven't wrapped yet. So that's this weekend's plan is
Speaker 2: to wrap all the present.
Speaker 1: So yeah, just for my audience who has not met
Speaker 1: you yet, because you've only been here once. So this
Speaker 1: is your this is your follow up appearance. Just tell
Speaker 1: my listeners just a quick revisit of who you are,
Speaker 1: what you do, your job, your PhD, and just a
Speaker 1: quick snapshot of you so they understand who they're listening to.
Speaker 2: Yep. Great, Super hard to put into a sentence, right
Speaker 2: because it's multi faceted.
Speaker 1: But I'm make stuff.
Speaker 2: I'm a therapist wait to children families. For over eighteen years,
Speaker 2: I've created the play Prescription Methods, so wanting to teach
Speaker 2: parents and professionals how to use therapeutic play to solve
Speaker 2: common childhood issues and parenting stuff. And my PhD was
Speaker 2: in play therapy and psychology, so I'm really passionate about
Speaker 2: all things like therapy and psychology. And yeah, that's me
Speaker 2: in a nutshell.
Speaker 1: Has it been Has it been really well received by
Speaker 1: people who are in the field who are kind of
Speaker 1: not exactly do what you do, but kind of adjacent,
Speaker 1: you know, working with kids therapy, like helping kids with
Speaker 1: mental health issues and socially shoes And how is it
Speaker 1: received by other people who don't do what you do
Speaker 1: but are in the space.
Speaker 2: Yeah, good question. I feel like, you know, when I
Speaker 2: was doing my PhD, right, I was calling out a
Speaker 2: lot of like therapists fives and their own I guess
Speaker 2: stuff and how that comes into therapy. And it was
Speaker 2: obviously really controversial thing. And you know, one of my examiners,
Speaker 2: I think I mentioned this on my previous episode, that
Speaker 2: it was much of the top five percent and she said,
Speaker 2: you call out like the elephant in the room, the
Speaker 2: stuff that no one wants to talk about. And I
Speaker 2: feel like that's kind of been my experience since doing
Speaker 2: my PhD and in the industry where a lot of
Speaker 2: the therapists, you know, do say that. To me, I'm
Speaker 2: not kind of talking about generic stuff, and I don't
Speaker 2: sound like other therapists. I'm talking about things that people
Speaker 2: feel really uncomfortable to talk about. But it's important stuff.
Speaker 2: So I definitely feel like there is good, good stuff,
Speaker 2: and I also think it probably really does trigger people too,
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's either gonna love it.
Speaker 1: Or hate it range generally of the kids that you
Speaker 1: work with.
Speaker 2: So play therapy is really from three to twelve. But
Speaker 2: you know, my shift has really been on the parents
Speaker 2: with these age kids, because ultimately, that's what's going to
Speaker 2: make the most sustainable changes is when you give parents
Speaker 2: the insight into understanding their child more and being able
Speaker 2: to use all these strategies that I would use in
Speaker 2: the playroom in the therapy room at home.
Speaker 1: H What's interesting about when you think about helping kid
Speaker 1: like therapy, right, So there's there's a therapeutic intent that
Speaker 1: is to help the kid in some way. What are
Speaker 1: I've got another point I want to make, but before
Speaker 1: I get to that, what are some of the mental
Speaker 1: health or behavioral or sociological issues that you deal with? Like,
Speaker 1: what are some of the typical problems. I don't know
Speaker 1: if that's the right word, but let's just go with that.
Speaker 1: Some issues that you deal with.
Speaker 2: I think the main ones really are anxiety, so whether
Speaker 2: it's separation anxiety, or anxiety at school, which can come
Speaker 2: off as like perfectionism, or even kids not even wanting
Speaker 2: to try because they're so worried about getting it wrong,
Speaker 2: you know, school refusal, anger, which is a big one,
Speaker 2: especially for young boys. Self esteem issues. So really I
Speaker 2: feel like I categorize them in the internalizing presentations and
Speaker 2: the externalizing. So externalizing is the stuff that we see
Speaker 2: that it's coming out to the aggression, the anger, you know,
Speaker 2: behavioral stuff, DeFi it's all of that outwardly, you know
Speaker 2: what parents would these disruptive behaviors. But then the internalizing
Speaker 2: stuff is the anxiety. It's the stuff that's really happening
Speaker 2: on the inside that really feels like it's shoved down.
Speaker 2: And then you know, children will have an outburst and
Speaker 2: parents like, where did that come from? Like they're not
Speaker 2: normally like this, but it's obviously been bubbling away. So
Speaker 2: that's the anxiety stuff. Yeah, So I would say that
Speaker 2: that's the most common presentations.
Speaker 1: And so I guess some of that outward stuff that
Speaker 1: you see is almost just the byproduct of the problem,
Speaker 1: not really the problem itself. It's like definitely the underlying stuff,
Speaker 1: which is the catal like, this is the issue. It's like,
Speaker 1: but now what you're seeing is little Johnny acting out,
Speaker 1: But you need to figure out what's underneath that to
Speaker 1: stop the acting out or to address that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I try and explain that to parents when
Speaker 2: they're talking about say little Johnny, and they're like, all
Speaker 2: he does is head other people and he's you know,
Speaker 2: really like mean to everyone. And I'm like, so where
Speaker 2: that starts is Johnny being mean to himself, Like he's
Speaker 2: heading on the inside. And often there's that kind of
Speaker 2: critical self talk that's actually going in first. You know
Speaker 2: that saying hurt people hurt people. So we really want
Speaker 2: to get to the underlying pain and to be able
Speaker 2: to empathize with that and to connect children with that.
Speaker 2: And a lot of the time, especially boys, they have
Speaker 2: some really critical self talk, like no one wants me around,
Speaker 2: I'm always doing bad things, no one likes me, you know,
Speaker 2: just really like really really struggling with that shame and
Speaker 2: being able to come back from you know, when they
Speaker 2: do that doesn't feel good.
Speaker 1: Why do you think that's more boys? You say a
Speaker 1: lot of boys. What is that about?
Speaker 2: I think? And this definitely, you know, is obviously prevalent
Speaker 2: in our society for men. But you know, parents, you know,
Speaker 2: there's obviously there's probably like biological reasons here too, but
Speaker 2: I think if we just talk about the sociological reasons,
Speaker 2: the expectations for boys and girls are very different. So
Speaker 2: parents parents their children differently. So when there's girls, there
Speaker 2: is a lot more talk around feelings and you know, understanding,
Speaker 2: you know, when girls are struggling or they're upset. But
Speaker 2: for boys, it's like you'll be right, You're okay, like
Speaker 2: tough enoup. So there is definitely those differences in parenting,
Speaker 2: and I think this is why boys really struggle with
Speaker 2: being able to talk about their feelings. And I counsel
Speaker 2: a lot of men too, and yeah, that's something that
Speaker 2: they also talk a lot about. You know, girls often
Speaker 2: have friends where they can cry to and you know,
Speaker 2: and have their feelings validated, and men don't have anyone
Speaker 2: that they can do that too, and when they do
Speaker 2: try and reach out, they kind of shut down, like, you'll.
Speaker 1: Be right, Yeah, I think it's I mean, I hope
Speaker 1: it's getting better. We're definitely talking about that more. But yeah,
Speaker 1: And it's interesting because I don't think anybody's setting out
Speaker 1: to fuck up their kids, right, but the reality is that,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I've written this post on my Instagram,
Speaker 1: my current, but it's something like, when I was young,
Speaker 1: I thought that grown ups had their shit together, they
Speaker 1: understood everything, they knew everything, Da da da da da.
Speaker 1: They basically had it all together. And then the second
Speaker 1: part is my hypothesis has since been amended, right. And
Speaker 1: it's funny because when you're little, well, when I was little,
Speaker 1: I'd look up to my mum and dad like they
Speaker 1: were perfect, They had all their shit together, they knew everything.
Speaker 1: Dad was the smartest guy, Mum was the best mum,
Speaker 1: every you know, whatever. And then you grow up and
Speaker 1: you see, you know, the curtain gets pulled back a
Speaker 1: little bit and you go, oh, no, they're just they're
Speaker 1: fucked up as well. Like, it's not like everyone's got
Speaker 1: fucking issues. Mum and dad are just as fucked up
Speaker 1: as their kids, if not more fucked up. So you've
Speaker 1: kind of got you know, sometimes not all parents, of course,
Speaker 1: but you've got this person who's perhaps themselves, you know,
Speaker 1: mentally and or emotionally struggling, which is part of the
Speaker 1: human experience, and they can't even really help themselves sometimes
Speaker 1: because understandably there's stuff going on. And then so it's
Speaker 1: very hard to be you know, Superman or super Dad
Speaker 1: when you're trying to fix yourself in inverted commas.
Speaker 2: Definitely, And I think this is actually a good thing because,
Speaker 2: you know, so I've got a post on my Instagram
Speaker 2: and it's like the candy Hearts, and if you've seen
Speaker 2: that by Tommy Siegel, I think it is. And it's
Speaker 2: like one like the mom candy Heart's like I will
Speaker 2: not mess up my child, and the other one that
Speaker 2: other parents like in the same way my parents mess
Speaker 2: me up, and then the little child one. It's like
Speaker 2: a whole new kind of fucked up. And I think
Speaker 2: that that really relates to the reality, which is all
Speaker 2: children have childhood conditioning. Like, like you said, we're all
Speaker 2: fucked up. You know, this is what's going to happen, like,
Speaker 2: this is the human conditioning. But what's I think what's
Speaker 2: really good to know is that it's actually good that
Speaker 2: children see us as human because what it does, So
Speaker 2: what happens in the previous generation, what's happened is that
Speaker 2: children have grown up with parents who try and be
Speaker 2: robotic and pretend to be perfect, right because they think
Speaker 2: that they're actually protecting their kids. So children grow up
Speaker 2: and now they're adults and they're like, no, Mum was perfect.
Speaker 2: Dad was okay, it must have been me. It's because
Speaker 2: I was too much. It was because I was too sensitive,
Speaker 2: it was because I was too annoying, versus a child
Speaker 2: that grows up where they're like, no, Dad really struggled
Speaker 2: with anger, and Mum, you know, was stressed. And when
Speaker 2: they actually have parents who admit to their own humanness,
Speaker 2: I guess in their own limitations, they're able to separate
Speaker 2: that and so then they realize, Okay, that's their stuff,
Speaker 2: what's mine? Yep? And I think that's what we really
Speaker 2: need to understand more of, and in fact, we need
Speaker 2: to stop trying to be perfect in front of children,
Speaker 2: because they grow up thinking it's them problem. Then I
Speaker 2: was just having feelings because they saw their parents manage
Speaker 2: all the things with zero reaction.
Speaker 1: What about the idea dr Sam of you know, let's
Speaker 1: say I'm a dad and I fuck up. You know,
Speaker 1: nothing horrendous, but I do you know, it's not my
Speaker 1: finest hour as a parent, and I apologize to my children.
Speaker 1: Is that a good idea? Parents apologizing to their children.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's so good. That's a rupture and repair. So
Speaker 2: every relationship has ruptures, and like I said, the previous
Speaker 2: generation ignored that and denied that, like they just didn't
Speaker 2: talk about it right or they were like no, I'm fine,
Speaker 2: and they're like body languages saying that they're not. And
Speaker 2: so when we when we repair a rupture, we're first
Speaker 2: acknowledging that there is a rupture. So children actually go,
Speaker 2: I'm sensing this right, you know, like there was something
Speaker 2: here that's disconnected us. And then a parent's owning their stuff,
Speaker 2: they're like, it wasn't you know you like, this is
Speaker 2: my stuff. I was stressed, so I was this and
Speaker 2: then it's like, well, what do we need to do
Speaker 2: to reconnect? And that's amazing. It's actually showing children that
Speaker 2: there is a way to come back from when we,
Speaker 2: you know, have moments like that where we regret what
Speaker 2: we've done, we've said things we don't mean, and it
Speaker 2: gives them a bit of a blueprint, you know, that
Speaker 2: they can do that too, and then they won't going
Speaker 2: to the spiral of shame.
Speaker 1: That's so good, so smart. I mean, it's kind of obvious,
Speaker 1: but we don't talk about it that much, like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I'm not hanging around observing
Speaker 1: parents doing a whole lot of parenting too much. But
Speaker 1: you see a lot of it anecdotally. I mean every morning,
Speaker 1: I'm in the cafe doing work and drinking coffee, and
Speaker 1: I get to the cafe early, and I see just
Speaker 1: lots of mums and dads and kids. And I'm not judging,
Speaker 1: but you just it's like, oh, you know, I live
Speaker 1: on a main street as well, and I just got
Speaker 1: back from a walk now just a little. I just
Speaker 1: walked to one end and the other because it's undercover
Speaker 1: and it's super hot here. But I'm constantly seeing parents
Speaker 1: doing parenting and you know, some of it's brilliant, some
Speaker 1: of it's you know, maybe not so brilliant, but I think,
Speaker 1: and I'm not an expert at anything, but I'm definitely
Speaker 1: not at parenting. But I wonder if I was a parent,
Speaker 1: if I would have the self awareness and courage and
Speaker 1: humility to go, hey, this just happened. That was all me.
Speaker 1: That's my fault, and you didn't do anything that was
Speaker 1: one hundred percent of me. So I'm sorry and moving forward,
Speaker 1: I'm going to do my very best not to do
Speaker 1: that again. Are you okay? Like that seems to me
Speaker 1: like a good idea.
Speaker 2: Definitely because they feel like it. Like I said, it
Speaker 2: really models to them that you're taking own a ship firstly,
Speaker 2: but also that you've noticed that there is a disconnect
Speaker 2: and you're kind of making amends. But then I think
Speaker 2: it's that's the immediate thing right where we're repairing. But
Speaker 2: I think also taking responsibility. It looks like this is
Speaker 2: a recurring thing for me, I'm stressed. What do I
Speaker 2: need to do to take that stress off in my
Speaker 2: life as a parent? Right So, being able to look
Speaker 2: at the patterns of going this is like what do
Speaker 2: I need? And I think a lot of parents don't
Speaker 2: do that. They just feel like they need to keep
Speaker 2: sacrificing their needs and go, go, go, And that's where
Speaker 2: that shame comes. And so when they have those moments,
Speaker 2: they just like I should know better. I need to
Speaker 2: go to a parenting class. No, you don't. You actually
Speaker 2: need to have space to get your needs met. Really
Speaker 2: take off the loan. A lot of the time parents
Speaker 2: know what they need to do, it's just they're overloaded,
Speaker 2: they're overwhelmed, they're tired, they're hungry.
Speaker 1: Did you see that that research that came out of
Speaker 1: unis A last year? It was about this time. I've
Speaker 1: spoken about this a few times. I apologize, but it's
Speaker 1: relevant to this conversation where they compared exercise as a
Speaker 1: treatment for anxiety with it was either anxiety or depressional.
Speaker 1: Both might have been both, but they used exercise as
Speaker 1: a treatment protocol compared with medication. And of course, you
Speaker 1: know what I'm going to say. So the exercise, the output,
Speaker 1: the exercise outperformed, you know, the medication. And I'm thinking about,
Speaker 1: you know, like with children, how many children are medicated
Speaker 1: now for fucking everything? Right, I'm wondering, you know, So
Speaker 1: you said the core of a lot of what you
Speaker 1: deal with with kids is anxiety, which manifests in a
Speaker 1: range of ways and all the first cousins of anxiety.
Speaker 1: I guess that if you know, so what a medication
Speaker 1: does changes you know, brain chemistry, right, what does play
Speaker 1: do changes brain chemistry? Like it's physiologically altering the child
Speaker 1: without the potential side effects of a drug.
Speaker 2: Oh exactly. And I think even when you were saying
Speaker 2: actso plays that because it brings us into the present moment,
Speaker 2: and like you said, it's rewiring our brain. But also exercise,
Speaker 2: and I think that that's a huge tool for parents
Speaker 2: that we just don't talk about enough, especially for parents.
Speaker 2: I mean, whether you've got anxiety or not, becoming a
Speaker 2: parent is very anxiety provoking. You're so worried about messing
Speaker 2: up your child. But if you didn't have anxiety, you know,
Speaker 2: you come away with having some anxiety about how you
Speaker 2: are showing up as a parent. So I think exercise
Speaker 2: is such an important way as stress relief. But also,
Speaker 2: like you said, I mean it performs better than antidepressants
Speaker 2: and anti anxiety medication. It's just not I don't think
Speaker 2: we talk about that as much as we should.
Speaker 1: I would imagine also that like play with kids that
Speaker 1: requires them to focus on something, it means now they're
Speaker 1: not focusing on something negative or now they're not distracted
Speaker 1: with something negative, like this requires your attention, you know.
Speaker 1: It's like there's this old kind of kind of what
Speaker 1: is it. It's like a puzzle. It's like, so, Sam,
Speaker 1: I'm going to give you a million dollars if you
Speaker 1: don't think about the number seven for the next thirty seconds, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: And it's like, oh fuck, I don't think. Oh I
Speaker 1: just thought. I don't think about them. I just thought
Speaker 1: about it. Right, And so the answer, the answer to
Speaker 1: that puzzle is not to try to think about to
Speaker 1: not try to think about the number seven. It's to
Speaker 1: think about a cheeseburger. Like you just focus on something
Speaker 1: different rather than try to not focus on a thing. Yes,
Speaker 1: you know, when I know when I'm feeling if which
Speaker 1: is not often, but if I'm sitting there and I
Speaker 1: start to feel a bit, I start to go down
Speaker 1: an emotional end or psychological rabbit hole that's not positive,
Speaker 1: I'm like, ah fuck. If I get up and I
Speaker 1: go and do something like that requires my energy and
Speaker 1: my attention and my focus and my brain to be
Speaker 1: drawn to a particular task or whatever. Now I'm out
Speaker 1: of that thing, Like now I'm moving my body. I
Speaker 1: still haven't necessarily solved a problem, but I've just stopped
Speaker 1: ruminating by giving my attention to something healthier.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is why I think play is such
Speaker 2: a good talk for parents. And you know, we talked
Speaker 2: about that repair. You know, for parents, they spend a
Speaker 2: lot of time in their mind in the past, so
Speaker 2: ruminating over past mistakes, how they handle things, how they
Speaker 2: wish they could have done it better, or in the future,
Speaker 2: which is all the worries of how maybe they've messed
Speaker 2: up their child or all these things that could go wrong.
Speaker 2: And so when a child wants to play with you,
Speaker 2: that's an invitation to be in the present moment you
Speaker 2: are like and it's really hard to by the way,
Speaker 2: That's why a lot of parents are like I bought
Speaker 2: or you know, thinking about all the things that they
Speaker 2: need to do. But to actually be present with the
Speaker 2: child is really you being in that moment. And I
Speaker 2: think a lot of the times we think of mindfulness
Speaker 2: as just quiet and calmness and yoga. No, mindfulness is
Speaker 2: also not running yourself down, not judging yourself, not thinking
Speaker 2: of West Kate scenarios, and actually being able to enjoy
Speaker 2: to be present, enjoy that moment for what it is,
Speaker 2: and be fully there. And I think that's why I play.
Speaker 2: It can be really triggering for parents, but I think
Speaker 2: it also can be really healing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just want to circle back a little bit
Speaker 1: to what we were talking about the impact that we
Speaker 1: have on our kids. You know, when we you know,
Speaker 1: we have our own shit, right, we have our own issues.
Speaker 1: I literally talk to people about issues and behavior and
Speaker 1: psychology for a living, and I've still got all my
Speaker 1: own bullshit, right, Like knowing stuff doesn't necessarily fix you,
Speaker 1: does it.
Speaker 2: It's like it doesn't unfortunately, Yeah, Like.
Speaker 1: Do I still have self esteem issues a little bit?
Speaker 1: Do I still overthink a little bit? Do I still
Speaker 1: feel like a fraud a little bit? You know? It's like, so,
Speaker 1: you know, there's knowing something and then there's you know,
Speaker 1: benefiting from that or yeah, you know, being human for sure.
Speaker 1: But I'm thinking, you know, because we all have our
Speaker 1: own bullshit, which we'll call, you know, psychological or emotional
Speaker 1: or behavioral issues. And you know, let's say I've got
Speaker 1: a self limiting belief that's somewhat irrational, and I believe
Speaker 1: A B and C, A B and C that's my
Speaker 1: irrational self limiting doesn't make sense, fucking up my own
Speaker 1: life belief Now, if I'm always living in a version
Speaker 1: of that self limiting paradigm, and I'm talking about that,
Speaker 1: and I'm expressing that my kids are witnessing that, there's
Speaker 1: a fair chance that's going to become their reality as well,
Speaker 1: I'm going to pass my I guess my long winded
Speaker 1: point is, I'm going to pass on my own bullshit
Speaker 1: to my kids unless I become more aware around them.
Speaker 2: Definitely, because if you think about it, if you're trying
Speaker 2: to be a perfect parent, then you will expect a
Speaker 2: perfect child. So you're right, and also knowing that we
Speaker 2: all have our own demons, but figuring out a way
Speaker 2: to continue to move towards your values and live in
Speaker 2: the way that you want amongst that so I think, Oh,
Speaker 2: psychology professor gave me this just best analogy. While I
Speaker 2: was doing my PhD and I was getting to the end,
Speaker 2: and I was saying, to have done all this work,
Speaker 2: like internally, like I've going to therapy and you know,
Speaker 2: learn all the things, and yet I feel like it's
Speaker 2: getting harder the closer I get to this endpoint, and
Speaker 2: all is like you said, limiting beliefs came out and
Speaker 2: I'm getting in my own way and I'm like, what
Speaker 2: else can I do? I feel like I've overthought this
Speaker 2: so much. And she was like, well, we've all got
Speaker 2: our own demons, and that's what you go to therapy for.
Speaker 2: You you solve one demon, another one pops up, you
Speaker 2: se one like this is just a never ending process.
Speaker 2: But what you kind of need to learn is learn
Speaker 2: how to coach yourself, lead yourself where you can get
Speaker 2: your demon, put it on the couch next to you
Speaker 2: and say you chill here. I'm going to go so
Speaker 2: like you're out of my way, chill here, I'm going
Speaker 2: to keep doing the thing. And that's a really important
Speaker 2: skill to have to show children where yes, these things
Speaker 2: can be running our head and we can have these
Speaker 2: limiting beliefs, but how do we get out of our
Speaker 2: own way and how do we take responsibility for our lives?
Speaker 2: And the more that they see us do that, which
Speaker 2: has been great with our lives, taking courage right, talking
Speaker 2: about our values and moving towards that and really imperfect ways,
Speaker 2: the more they learn how to do that rather than
Speaker 2: going and thoither all or nothing? And a lot of
Speaker 2: people do that. I need to solve all my ademons
Speaker 2: before I can do the thing. I need to have
Speaker 2: perfect conditions before I can do the thing, all the
Speaker 2: reasons why they can't do it, versus going I just
Speaker 2: need to learn how to get out of my own way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes complete sense. I reckon, if I was
Speaker 1: a dad, there's every chance my kid or kids would
Speaker 1: have had food issues because I had food issues, you know,
Speaker 1: And I thinking I've thought about that. I'm like, wow,
Speaker 1: like imagine because I was more with the ib skid
Speaker 1: all this stuff, you know, fat kid eating issues and
Speaker 1: like eating lots of food I didn't need, then hating
Speaker 1: my body and hating my self, and then you know,
Speaker 1: becoming fucking a maniac about exercise. And you know, I
Speaker 1: wonder if and it took me, you know, I mean
Speaker 1: I owned multiple gym sam and I was still doing
Speaker 1: dumb shit to my own body like I was an
Speaker 1: ext size scientist. I'm working with the lead athletes, I
Speaker 1: own multiple gyms. I'm like well known, I'm all this shit,
Speaker 1: and I'm still shoving food in my face when no
Speaker 1: one's looking at Not these days, but for a long time,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe till I was in my mid thirties,
Speaker 1: when I was well and truly educated and informed, but
Speaker 1: still fucking out of control.
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, and it's a journey, right, And even
Speaker 2: if you that's the problem, I think with a lot
Speaker 2: of these things, because parents are so worried about transferring
Speaker 2: that onto their child, they will see it. So, for example,
Speaker 2: you'd have a child, and then your child might I
Speaker 2: don't know, have a preference for one food, or you
Speaker 2: start to see some kind of contenting things and you'll go, wow,
Speaker 2: I've done it. It's protected, and you'll try and fix
Speaker 2: it and make it perfect. And so if the issues
Speaker 2: weren't already there, they will be there because that's a
Speaker 2: lens that you have, right, which is I'm causing this,
Speaker 2: And every time your child has anything to do with food,
Speaker 2: you're inner story is I've caused this, I'm projecting I
Speaker 2: haven't got my shit together, versus going in some ways,
Speaker 2: we actually all have issues, you know, with our body
Speaker 2: image in some ways, so your child's not going to
Speaker 2: be immune from that. You're still struggling with that. You
Speaker 2: can use that experience as empathy in going, I don't
Speaker 2: need to fix this for my child, but I can
Speaker 2: share my own journey. I can share that I also
Speaker 2: haven't figured it out and I'm still learning things, and
Speaker 2: I'm experimenting with what works for my body, and I
Speaker 2: fall off the track and then I get back on it.
Speaker 2: And that's a very compassionate, curious way to approach that
Speaker 2: versus that shame based which is I need to get
Speaker 2: it right. I don't want to stuff up my child,
Speaker 2: so I think they should. Yeah, a lot of parents
Speaker 2: can really look at it into different ways, which is,
Speaker 2: I don't want to project versus this can actually give
Speaker 2: me empathy. So if I've got anxiety, my child's got it,
Speaker 2: Or if I've got body issusanes and my child's got it,
Speaker 2: I'm going to have this empathy knowing I know what
Speaker 2: it's like to have this struggle when it's not going
Speaker 2: to be just fixed straight away. So let's be more
Speaker 2: kind to ourselves while we do that work.
Speaker 1: Is it tough for you? I was thinking about this
Speaker 1: last time we spoke, but I forgot to ask, like,
Speaker 1: is it tough for you? In twenty twenty four, twenty five,
Speaker 1: almost twenty five? When you've got to I mean, you've
Speaker 1: you've got to be politically correct of course you got
Speaker 1: to be enlightened and all of these things, which I'm
Speaker 1: on board. But boys and girls aren't the same biologically
Speaker 1: and sociologically. And we know that girls mature, generally speaking, quicker,
Speaker 1: their brains develop quicker, you know, their prefrontal cortex develops
Speaker 1: or is kind of set earlier than men. And you
Speaker 1: know there are these how do you navigate and negotiate
Speaker 1: these differences without getting in trouble? Like because I feel
Speaker 1: like it's you know, you can't go, oh, boys are
Speaker 1: this and girls are that. I feel like that's a
Speaker 1: slippery slope.
Speaker 2: It very much is. And I think you know, everyone's
Speaker 2: like ready to like balance me, like what you said.
Speaker 2: But I think to even go more than that, which
Speaker 2: is even within girls, everyone's got different experiences. Every girl's different,
Speaker 2: and same with boys. So I think, you know, we
Speaker 2: need to just just know that every human is unique
Speaker 2: based on their experiences and what's going on for them
Speaker 2: and their contents and their environment. And I yeah, the
Speaker 2: more that we can use research to infem ust but
Speaker 2: actually really connect with the child in front of us
Speaker 2: and what they're showing us, I think that's probably the
Speaker 2: best way to go.
Speaker 1: But I mean we know we're not going to see
Speaker 1: girls out on you know, preppies and grade ones out
Speaker 1: on the playground wrestling the girls just you know, wrestling
Speaker 1: and you know, maybe some but yeah, I guess I
Speaker 1: get I don't what I'm asking. I just feel like
Speaker 1: that's I would struggle with that. I just think, oh,
Speaker 1: I'd get myself in trouble because I'd probably say something
Speaker 1: that people go oh, oh so hard these days.
Speaker 2: And the thing is, really, there's not anything you can
Speaker 2: say that won't get someone to have an opinion about it, right,
Speaker 2: You say something and everyone's like, well, it could be
Speaker 2: the other way, Like there's always going to be different
Speaker 2: in opinions. So I think, yeah, it's so important to
Speaker 2: keep that in mind too.
Speaker 1: You spoke before about you having a therapist for a
Speaker 1: period of time and you're doing therapy. What does that feel?
Speaker 1: Free to answer and not answer this or open the
Speaker 1: door as wide or as narrow as you want, but
Speaker 1: can you share with us what were some of the
Speaker 1: stuff without revealing you know you deep as darkest, But like,
Speaker 1: I love it when somebody like you who is you know,
Speaker 1: a therapist who's got a doctorate, who's smart, who works
Speaker 1: with people you go. Yeah, by the way, I'm a
Speaker 1: little bit fucked up myself, Like what is right? You know,
Speaker 1: I'm still dealing with shit because I'm human, you know, Yes,
Speaker 1: so I've.
Speaker 2: Had different experiences, So what fairs brought me to therapy?
Speaker 2: Going to be honest, I had to do it to
Speaker 2: become a I should play therapist, so we have to
Speaker 2: undertake it was like fifty hours of personal therapy. So
Speaker 2: I was in therapy for one hour a week for
Speaker 2: about a year. And because it's not saying its force,
Speaker 2: but because there was obviously a reason to it, I
Speaker 2: was like, Okay, I'm going to really be open to
Speaker 2: this experience, do do the inner child work that I
Speaker 2: need to. And that was great. But what was really
Speaker 2: good is when I came to therapy by myself, and
Speaker 2: that's when I became a mum, and I was like,
Speaker 2: let me, you know, as my asmums do, let me
Speaker 2: try and deal with my own my own shit. I
Speaker 2: said that I don't protected onto my child, and this
Speaker 2: is what's coming up for me. And you know, it
Speaker 2: did take me a few goes to find the right
Speaker 2: kind of therapist and one that was really honest. You know,
Speaker 2: I didn't want a therapist that would just tell me
Speaker 2: what I want to hear. I'm like, please, like, call
Speaker 2: me out of my blind spots here, What am I missing?
Speaker 2: What am I So? I think it was really good
Speaker 2: to have that experience as I entered parenthood. But then
Speaker 2: I used it for a while when I felt like
Speaker 2: I needed it to talk things through or to again
Speaker 2: get out of my own head a bit and about
Speaker 2: stuff back. And what was awesome about it was I
Speaker 2: had a therapist that was really good at actually uncovering
Speaker 2: my again really connection to the child, but uncovering my
Speaker 2: unmet needs you know as a child, or my experiences
Speaker 2: as a child and how that's impacting me as an adult.
Speaker 2: And so it gave me this deeper understanding of myself.
Speaker 2: But it also showed me where I needed to take
Speaker 2: more responsibility for my life. And I think that's really
Speaker 2: the key to it. I think we can come to
Speaker 2: therapy to maybe get validated or to try and talk
Speaker 2: about you know, what horrible situation you know other people
Speaker 2: are aware in and how stressful all the external stuff is.
Speaker 2: But if you come to therapy with this, I really
Speaker 2: want to understand more of myself, like the good, the bad,
Speaker 2: the all the parts and then where I can actually
Speaker 2: make changes. That's the key to it, and that's what
Speaker 2: I did. I think more so in the self initiated,
Speaker 2: you know, being a parent. Part of the therapy is
Speaker 2: when I was so committed in between the sessions to
Speaker 2: do the work and to come back with this is what,
Speaker 2: this is, what didn't this is what I was trialing,
Speaker 2: and then continue to work from there, and so I
Speaker 2: really do believe. Again, so people come to therapy and
Speaker 2: they think therapists have the answers. I didn't come to
Speaker 2: therapy like that. I came to therapy going I know
Speaker 2: that this is my life. I'm the expect in my life,
Speaker 2: and they're here to maybe be a mirror to show
Speaker 2: me things, to help me reflect onto things. But I
Speaker 2: have to do the work outside therapy and nothing's going
Speaker 2: to change.
Speaker 1: I feel like therapists, personal trainers, exercise physiologists, life coaches.
Speaker 1: I don't really like putting them in that. But you know,
Speaker 1: there's a whole group of people that, not so much
Speaker 1: doctors because it's generally in and out for twelve minutes
Speaker 1: or something, but people who work with people one on
Speaker 1: one for an hour or forty five minutes on a
Speaker 1: regular basis. It's like, you know, there are great therapists
Speaker 1: and terrible ones. There are great trainers and terrible ones.
Speaker 1: There are great dietitians and terrible ones, and good bricklayers
Speaker 1: and bad ones. You know, it's like that. You know,
Speaker 1: my background is owning gyms right and PT centers specifically,
Speaker 1: and like what I what I would have thought going
Speaker 1: into that, which is like, well, the most qualified, the
Speaker 1: most knowledgeable, the most skilled, they will be the most successful,
Speaker 1: And it just was almost never the case. I'm like, oh, like,
Speaker 1: some of my trainers had the most basic quality. I
Speaker 1: mean literally I had everything from PhD qualified people down
Speaker 1: to certificate three and four right and everyone in between.
Speaker 1: But probably at least half my trainers were a fitness
Speaker 1: industry qualified kind of fundamental quals right three and four
Speaker 1: cert but without doubt the probably the best five trainers
Speaker 1: I had, and I could qualify best. But just in
Speaker 1: terms of all round performance, quiet retention didn't injure people.
Speaker 1: People may good progress, they got good results, they loved
Speaker 1: the experience, they said positive things. These particular trainers had
Speaker 1: very very little drop off. They were all just awesome humans,
Speaker 1: Like they were all just funny, good people, good personalities.
Speaker 1: They cared. I mean, it's so basic, right, And they
Speaker 1: were just gave a fuck about the people they worked with,
Speaker 1: and they were consistent and they were good. And you know,
Speaker 1: I've said this. I don't think I said this to you,
Speaker 1: but I've said this a bunch of times over the years.
Speaker 1: But in all the years that I worked as a
Speaker 1: trainer and as a gym owner and as a high
Speaker 1: performance coach with athletes and teams and all those things,
Speaker 1: in all those years, I got asked once what my
Speaker 1: qualification was? Once, Wow, what is your qualification? And it
Speaker 1: was only a lady who was She only wanted to know,
Speaker 1: not because she was checking up on me or doubting me,
Speaker 1: but she wanted to do what I did. She's like,
Speaker 1: you know, and so not that we shouldn't be qualified
Speaker 1: or knowledgeable or skilled. Of course, we're not saying that
Speaker 1: all of those things are you know, imperative. But like
Speaker 1: if you've got a PhD in psychology, but you sit
Speaker 1: down with people and they don't enjoy being around you,
Speaker 1: well good luck.
Speaker 2: Oh exactly if you're like judging them and you're like
Speaker 2: criticizing them in your mind, and you know, you're you're
Speaker 2: you know, not really present with them, and you're assessing
Speaker 2: them in a way that doesn't align right with what
Speaker 2: they're actually saying and what they're trying to in how
Speaker 2: they're trying to connect with you. Then you're right, you're
Speaker 2: not gonna You're not going to be someone that they'll
Speaker 2: want to come back to. And I think it's a
Speaker 2: really good point of what you said, like just generally
Speaker 2: caring about their lives and wanting to support them, and
Speaker 2: you've even see that in your industry. I think it
Speaker 2: then just shows how relatable it is, right.
Speaker 1: Like this is, this is so fundamental. It seems like, oh,
Speaker 1: that couldn't possibly work. I used to say too, And
Speaker 1: I would say to any trainer listening, any professional listening,
Speaker 1: especially you know people who do what you and I do, right,
Speaker 1: which is like one on one stuff, like apart from
Speaker 1: all the other factors and variables, do they want to
Speaker 1: come back? Like? Do they like especially when you're a
Speaker 1: trainer and you see someone three times a week? Right?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I trained one lady who definitely didn't need me to
Speaker 1: train her after the first year, but I trained her
Speaker 1: sixteen years, like sixteen years, three four five days, a
Speaker 1: week right, and she didn't need me, but she just would.
Speaker 1: She could afford it. She was wealthy, so it wasn't
Speaker 1: an issue. She went, I know I could train by myself,
Speaker 1: but I don't want to. I just get better results.
Speaker 1: I enjoy it more. I'm more consistent for these reasons.
Speaker 1: And if you will train me I want, I'm like great.
Speaker 1: And you know I ask bosses Sam when I go
Speaker 1: and I do corporate stuff or I'm consulting, or I'm speaking,
Speaker 1: or I'm kind of problem solving or doing team building
Speaker 1: stuff or you know, cultural or communication stuff, I ask
Speaker 1: the boss him or her, whoever that is. I go,
Speaker 1: do your staff like being here? Is this a place
Speaker 1: that they want to come to and that they don't
Speaker 1: even think about this? I go, is this an environment
Speaker 1: and a culture that your people get out of bed
Speaker 1: and look forward to coming to this place? And if
Speaker 1: the answer to that is no, that's where you need
Speaker 1: to start.
Speaker 2: Definitely. That's such an important question that I think a
Speaker 2: lot of leaders would not ask. And I mean for you, though,
Speaker 2: do you think the reason why you've been so successful,
Speaker 2: especially in that industry, is because you've had your own
Speaker 2: personal journey with exercise?
Speaker 1: I think yes, I think like I have a hundred
Speaker 1: percent yeah. And so when I talk about whatever obesity
Speaker 1: or body dysmorphia or fucking self loathing or I'm not
Speaker 1: talking from a research perspective. I'm talking about experientially. I go,
Speaker 1: I know, I know what it's like to hate how
Speaker 1: you look. I know what it's like to get on
Speaker 1: the scales and be depressed. I know what it's like
Speaker 1: to look in the mirror and feel sad. I know
Speaker 1: what it's like to be picked last for a team
Speaker 1: because you're fat. I know, I know, right, And there's
Speaker 1: no self pity in this. But that's my experience. And
Speaker 1: so you know, I have a soft soft spot for
Speaker 1: people who struggle with all of.
Speaker 2: It, which is what you see them, right, like you
Speaker 2: actually see them because imagine if you didn't have that,
Speaker 2: you could see how you could have a trainer, right
Speaker 2: that's never had that struggle. And they may again not intentionally,
Speaker 2: but be like, it's not that hard, like and it's
Speaker 2: and when they say it's different because it's that way
Speaker 2: you've always had that, But knowing your struggles, you're like, no,
Speaker 2: this is what the way that you would kind of
Speaker 2: speak that out would be so different.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it just dawned on me as you were talking.
Speaker 1: It's like, I, this is going to sound bad, but
Speaker 1: it's like people that don't have great genetics that really
Speaker 1: struggle to be in shape that you know, it's like
Speaker 1: they're my people. It's like that is audious people right now.
Speaker 1: I've worked with lots of elite athletes, national international athletes, Olympians,
Speaker 1: all that, and I can work with them, and I'm
Speaker 1: quite a good conditioning coach and all of that, XI scientists,
Speaker 1: but I can do all that, but I kind of
Speaker 1: feel in that environment or I have a capacity to
Speaker 1: feel like I don't belong because I was not a
Speaker 1: good athlete. I was not gifted genetically, I didn't have
Speaker 1: great sporting talent. And even though I can do that
Speaker 1: job and I can be a good coach and I
Speaker 1: can help people get better in that environment as well,
Speaker 1: but it's funny when I'm back talking to someone who
Speaker 1: just struggles with self esteem and self worth and body
Speaker 1: image and not very great genetics, and you know, I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm in my natural habitat. This is where I belong.
Speaker 2: Yeah, You're like, you speak my language.
Speaker 1: I'm like I get it. I get it, you know,
Speaker 1: I just I just want to give them a you know,
Speaker 1: if not a literal hugger, you know, a virtual hug.
Speaker 1: So so if we're like from a just back quickly
Speaker 1: to the parenting thing and the kids thing. It's like,
Speaker 1: is there this is a very broad question, But how
Speaker 1: do I know if I'm doing a good job? Like
Speaker 1: what's the data telling me? And it's you know, not
Speaker 1: not to be preoccupied with that, but it's like, well, clearly,
Speaker 1: if I'm a parent, I want to be a good parent.
Speaker 1: If I'm a good parent, what's happening? How do I know?
Speaker 1: And I guess conversely, not if I'm a shit parent,
Speaker 1: but if I need to maybe work on stuff, you know,
Speaker 1: how do I know.
Speaker 2: What you define is good?
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know. You I mean, like, do we
Speaker 1: need to like do we need to think about I mean,
Speaker 1: we don't want to overthink shit because we don't want
Speaker 1: to complicate shit. But at the same time, want it
Speaker 1: or not, like it or not. You're shaping this human
Speaker 1: like this you you're programming and training this human. And
Speaker 1: you're training this little human when they are the most
Speaker 1: malleable and they are becoming a version of you, like
Speaker 1: it or not. Yeah, yeah, so how do I Yeah, this.
Speaker 2: Is hard to spit though. If becauds, you're right, you know,
Speaker 2: the parent in ch our relationship. I mean they say
Speaker 2: it's one of the most influential obviously relationship, right, it's
Speaker 2: setting the foundations for all the other relationships. The attachment,
Speaker 2: it's so so important. But at the same time, it's
Speaker 2: not the only input in their lives. You know, children
Speaker 2: go to school, right, They're getting influenced by other people,
Speaker 2: other teachers, other kids. So I think when we define
Speaker 2: good parenting, what we have to really kind of get
Speaker 2: to what is our definition of good Because if it's
Speaker 2: a good a good parenting is having a child that's
Speaker 2: happy all the time. Then when your child is sad,
Speaker 2: you're going to feel like you're failing. When your child
Speaker 2: is angry, you're gonna feel like you're failing. And so
Speaker 2: then you're not actually being present with them what they
Speaker 2: need to be present with, which is actually being able
Speaker 2: to experience life fully. And so I think that, yeah,
Speaker 2: really getting to what is good versus Yeah, how do
Speaker 2: we I guess focus on what we can which is
Speaker 2: our relationship with our child, and what is the relationship
Speaker 2: it's a connection, it's the emotional connection. So I think
Speaker 2: really being able to go back and do that inner
Speaker 2: work so that you are emotionally connected to yourself and
Speaker 2: you're getting your emotional needs met and then going how
Speaker 2: am I showing up in this relationship with my child?
Speaker 2: And so research you know, I always thought it was
Speaker 2: like if you most of the time, if you're you know,
Speaker 2: responding to your child, great, then you're good. But research shows,
Speaker 2: especially with secure attachment. So they had the Safeless Security
Speaker 2: training and in that training, evidence based program and they
Speaker 2: teach you that only three percent of the time if
Speaker 2: you're responding to your child's needs, and that is what
Speaker 2: you know can lead to a secure attachment. So I
Speaker 2: think it's yeah important when we talk about those emotional needs.
Speaker 2: It's feeling seen, head validated, accepted, and understood for who
Speaker 2: they are. And I think play provides this amazing space
Speaker 2: for that because it's got these conditions where we can
Speaker 2: create that therapeutic environment. But also they're not overly worrying
Speaker 2: about constantly are we doing the right thing and did
Speaker 2: we respond in the right way twenty four seven, because
Speaker 2: that can actually cause other issues that can cause a
Speaker 2: child that's struggling with anxiety and perfectionism because everything has
Speaker 2: to be perfect. So I think moving away from good
Speaker 2: versus maybe living a meaningful life, how do we help
Speaker 2: children actually be really connected to themselves in the world.
Speaker 2: How do we help our children live out values? What
Speaker 2: are our values? So I think that's probably more of
Speaker 2: a focal point is to yeah, be more aligned and
Speaker 2: being able to actually live that out with our kids.
Speaker 1: So every morning, as I said to you before, I
Speaker 1: go and sit in this cafe and there's a dude
Speaker 1: who comes in. His name is James will I'll give
Speaker 1: a shout out to James. Used to play footy for
Speaker 1: sin Kilda. He was a gun. Anyway, it's got the
Speaker 1: most gorgeous little girl called Rosie who for some reason,
Speaker 1: Rosie has taken a shine to Uncle Harps. And one
Speaker 1: day he was just anyway, he was sitting to one side,
Speaker 1: and she just walked over to me and put up
Speaker 1: her arms and I went okay, So then she just
Speaker 1: sat with me. Anyway, Now every time she comes in,
Speaker 1: she sits like on my lap and I get my phone.
Speaker 1: This is probably bad, but she sits on my lap
Speaker 1: and so she's she's got her little arms on the table.
Speaker 1: I've got my arms on the table. I'll get my
Speaker 1: phone out and I will put on like a Bluey
Speaker 1: cartoon or a clip from Blueie. Right, I'm all over
Speaker 1: it anyway, Louie. Yeah. Right. So the other day she
Speaker 1: comes in and she because she knows what she wants.
Speaker 1: She just wants to come and sit with me and
Speaker 1: fuck around on the phone. And she'll pick up the
Speaker 1: salt shaker and hand it to me, and then the
Speaker 1: pepper shaker and hand it to me, and then it's
Speaker 1: this whole thing. But I was, I was. I don't
Speaker 1: know how old she's I shouldn't know, but I feel
Speaker 1: like she's no more than eight months, so she's little, right,
Speaker 1: But she just she gets my phone and she just
Speaker 1: she knows how to use that phone. Yeah, she's like
Speaker 1: finding stuff and scrolling and I mean she's not typing
Speaker 1: in things, of course, yes, but to an extent she
Speaker 1: can navigate her way around that phone, which and I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't want to have this, Oh, screens are killing
Speaker 1: our kids and all that, because it's been so talked about.
Speaker 1: But when you talk about play therapy, yeah, does that
Speaker 1: involve that kind of play? Does that involve kids? Playing
Speaker 1: computer games or is this not really in the context
Speaker 1: of what you do?
Speaker 2: So in traditional obviously play therapy, you know, we don't
Speaker 2: have that. But I think what I'm and what a
Speaker 2: lot of play therapist society to do, is to really
Speaker 2: get these skills to be more applicable to this day
Speaker 2: and not just this day and age, but to other
Speaker 2: activities as well. So, yeah, there are principles that you
Speaker 2: can still use in the online world or in the
Speaker 2: in the gaming I mean, there's lots of therapy sort
Speaker 2: of even combined like minecraft and therapy, you know, and
Speaker 2: kind of been really creative in the ways that they're
Speaker 2: joining the technology stuff into it. So I think, yes,
Speaker 2: if we can be more flexible and adaptable, then we
Speaker 2: can still use the therapeutic principles in the online space.
Speaker 2: And if anything, it opens up so much more draws too. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, my last one before we let you go, and
Speaker 1: I know you're young, you're young, you're a puppet, but
Speaker 1: do you think there's more anxiety in kids? You know,
Speaker 1: let's just say your group three, did you say three
Speaker 1: to twelve? Is your group two to twelve?
Speaker 2: Yep?
Speaker 1: Do you think there's more anxiety in that group? Now?
Speaker 1: Do you think there's more anxiety in that group now
Speaker 1: than say, twenty years ago when you were a kid,
Speaker 1: or do you think we just have far more awareness about,
Speaker 1: you know, the anxiety that is there.
Speaker 2: Maybe a bit of both, really, I mean, I think
Speaker 2: that there is a lot more anxiety and even for
Speaker 2: parents as well kids, there's so much more pressure, like
Speaker 2: to be all the things to their child. And you
Speaker 2: know that that I'm influencing, you know, influencing this child.
Speaker 2: I'm raising a child. This is like a huge responsibility.
Speaker 2: You can get them to be very anxious, and like
Speaker 2: I said, a child, I mean, a parent trying to
Speaker 2: be perfect is going to raise a child that's trying
Speaker 2: to be perfect. So there's one part to it. But yeah,
Speaker 2: you're also right, a lot of things that parents won't
Speaker 2: even know in the previous generation was anxiety is now
Speaker 2: talked about. We're putting names to it, we're talking about
Speaker 2: those feelings in our bodies that you know are anxiety driven.
Speaker 2: We're talking about all these other things to do with anxiety.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think it's a bit of both.
Speaker 1: I'd say, yeah, yeah, I also I wonder what you know,
Speaker 1: it's like we're spoken about this to a little bit.
Speaker 1: It's a bit of a dead horse, but I just
Speaker 1: like your take on it. I mean, like, we want
Speaker 1: our kids to be able to adapt and be flexible
Speaker 1: and to be able to socialize in different contexts, and
Speaker 1: we want them to be you know, within reason. We
Speaker 1: want them to be resilient and all of those things,
Speaker 1: but at the same time, we want to protect them
Speaker 1: from everything like this exactly, this dichotomy. It's like, I
Speaker 1: want my kids to be strong, but I don't ever
Speaker 1: want them to do anything hard.
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, and yeah, I want them to predict them
Speaker 2: from all the things, but then I want them to
Speaker 2: build like he said, this resilience. But also if you
Speaker 2: really look at a lot of parents' descriptions of what
Speaker 2: they want their child to be, it's like, well, how
Speaker 2: far away away from this idea I allows version of
Speaker 2: a human because you'll see you'll see parents put their
Speaker 2: child in three four, five extra reproductivities, but they don't
Speaker 2: have a hobby themselves. And so it's so easy for
Speaker 2: us as adults to sit on the sidelines and be
Speaker 2: like you go do this and like, you know, be
Speaker 2: this like perfectly well balanced human, while we're like not
Speaker 2: even on that path or not even seeing the benefit
Speaker 2: of that. So I think, yeah, we're having really unrealistic
Speaker 2: expectations of what a human can be like because it
Speaker 2: is our child and we're like, I want all the
Speaker 2: best things for them. But then yeah, that's a lot
Speaker 2: of pressure, a lot of pres if they're not on
Speaker 2: the journey.
Speaker 1: Tue, what's on the what's in the agenda for Christmas?
Speaker 1: For the good doc and the kids?
Speaker 2: Wow, I live in a small town, so we'll be
Speaker 2: having you know, a nice summers the Christmas, you know,
Speaker 2: with in the pool and lots of food. Of course,
Speaker 2: that would be really great.
Speaker 1: What about you did you did you say, Margaret River? No,
Speaker 1: oh wow, that's north That's wow.
Speaker 2: S Appilbra Christmas for me this year.
Speaker 1: Get that hot up there. I'm just going to see
Speaker 1: my folks. My folks, understandably, are pretty old and you
Speaker 1: get to a point where you don't know how many
Speaker 1: Christmas is you're going to have left with those people,
Speaker 1: you know, so God bless their little socks. So I'm
Speaker 1: heading up to see Ron and Mary and yeah, we'll
Speaker 1: see how that goes. So it's you know, it won't
Speaker 1: it won't be anything exciting, but it's nice. I just
Speaker 1: like spending time with them, Like it's funny the older
Speaker 1: that I become and the older of course that they become.
Speaker 1: You know, you think a little bit like that. You think,
Speaker 1: I wonder how many they live two hours away from me?
Speaker 1: I wonder how many more times I'll drive up this road.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't want to have any.
Speaker 2: More Christmases that you have with them and all of that.
Speaker 1: So yeah, Hey, if people want to find you, follow you,
Speaker 1: connect with you, see you on social media, or shoot
Speaker 1: you an email or something like that, how does that happen?
Speaker 2: So my Instagram is just my name Dr Sam Casey,
Speaker 2: or they can find me on my website which is
Speaker 2: www dot dotor SAMKC dot com probably my two main ones.
Speaker 2: So yeah, they'll be able to contact me to say.
Speaker 1: That Sam, your ace. I appreciate you. Thank you for
Speaker 1: coming on again. We'll say goodbye once we sign off.
Speaker 1: We'll do that off air, but for the moment, thanks
Speaker 1: for being on the You project again.
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me again.