WEBVTT - “National shame”: Andrew Wilkie on the government’s gambling reforms 0:00:02.080 --> 0:00:06.720 I remember a family living in my electorate. The mum 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:11.320 had a gambling addiction and she'd been gambling all of 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:16.200 the housekeeping money, unbeknown to her partner and little kids. 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:19.639 And by the time I heard the story the electricity 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:23.120 had been cut off. She'd run up an electricity bill 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:24.400 of five thousand dollars. 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:28.840 For more than a decade, Independent MP Andrew Wilkie has 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:30.520 been talking about gambling addiction. 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:36.279 The electricity company had given a three different opportunities to 0:00:36.600 --> 0:00:41.880 stick to a repayment plan, and ultimately the company said 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:43.960 no more, that's it and cut the power off. 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:48.480 His advocacy means he's become a lightning rod for people 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:49.960 to share stories like this one. 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:53.480 So when I met that family, there was mum, dad 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:56.360 and two little children living in a house in winter 0:00:56.640 --> 0:01:02.840 in Hobart, no lights, no stove, no hot order, no heating. 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:07.840 That's just one of thousands of stories I could recount. 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:12.600 Now, as the government passes legislation aimed at reducing gambling hums, 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:15.760 Wilkie is among an angry group of dissenters who say 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:20.440 the bill is a national shame. I'm Ruby Jones and 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:25.200 you're listening to seven AM today Andrew Wilke on the 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:28.600 gaps in the government's gambling legislation and why he's referred 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:43.000 it to the Anti Corruption Commission. It's Saturday, August twenty two. Andrew. 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:46.560 Let's talk about the legislation the government passed after coming 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:49.639 to an agreement with the coalition. One of the major 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:53.280 concessions from Labor was a single service opt out register 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:55.840 for people who don't want to be served gambling ads 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:59.000 across different platforms. What do we know about how that 0:01:59.040 --> 0:01:59.480 will work? 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:02.680 Well, we know very little other than that there will 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:06.040 be a one stop shop where I see people can 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:10.440 go to it opt out, and that instruction to opt 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:14.640 out then is shared across all platforms. That's what I 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:17.520 understand it to me, rather than me having to go 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:21.760 to a dozen different platforms and opt out on everyone. 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:25.040 If that's the government's intention, I think it is, that 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:29.280 will be helpful. I'll give the government some credit. They 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:32.080 have done more than any previous government. The question is 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:36.240 are they doing enough? And that's an emphatic no. I 0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:40.680 remind listeners that this whole thing started over three years 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:45.200 ago when a parliamentary report was produced into gambling harm 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:47.440 in Australia. It was chaired by the late Peter Murphy. 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:51.880 Hence it's called the Murphy Report. That report contains thirty 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:57.559 one recommendations. It was, without a doubt, the best inquiry, 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:01.000 best parliamentary inquiry this country has ever soon into gambling 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:04.119 harm and what to do about it. But here we are, 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:07.760 over three years later. The government has finally reacted to 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:11.840 it with its legislation and what is going through the 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:17.000 parliament addresses in part three of the thirty one recommendations 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:18.000 in the Murphy Report. 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:21.560 Right, can you get detail that for me a little more? 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:24.360 Where the gaps in the legislation compared to what was 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:26.679 recommended in Peter Murphy's report. 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:30.680 All the thirty one recommendations, I'll single out three that 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:34.160 I'll call it the flagship recommendations. These were the three 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:38.440 big ones, right. One was that there be a phase 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:41.760 out of gambling advertising, so after several years there would 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:44.680 be a full ban, a full ban on gambling ads 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:50.080 across all platforms, a free to wear streaming. Secondly, that 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:54.960 there would be a complete ban on inducements. So inducements 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:59.520 are things like giving someone some free credit. You know, 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:01.520 I'll give you, We'll give you a hundred dollars credit 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:04.920 if you side up or if you stick with us 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:08.760 when you might be considering in closing your account. And 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:11.680 the third thing was going to be an independent national 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:16.560 gambling regulator because at the moment, all of the well 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:21.160 almost all of the online gambling companies are regulated by 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:25.840 the Northern Territory government through their part time and completely 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:30.400 ineffective gambling regulator. So that were the three big recommendations. 0:04:30.760 --> 0:04:34.200 A full gambling ban, a complete ban on inducements, in 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:39.560 the establishment of a national gambling regulator. The government's reforms 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:44.440 do not address any of those in any way. They 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:47.960 would say that, you know, they've got some changes around 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:52.400 the margins with advertising, some changes around the margins with inducements, 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:55.279 and they're prepared to trust the regulator in the Territory. 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:58.320 But that's just nonsense. There's lots of little things they're 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:02.000 doing that they really are tinkering around the edges. 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:08.240 I've said before and some have been critical of it, 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:10.920 but I stand by my view that there is nothing 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:14.839 wrong with someone having a punt on a Saturday in 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:19.160 the pub. What there is something wrong with is if 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:22.640 people are addicted to anything. 0:05:22.720 --> 0:05:25.520 The Prime Minister has said that something is better than 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:28.520 nothing and that he doesn't want Australia to be a 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:31.960 nanny state stopping people from having a punt on the weekend. 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:33.640 What do you make of that argument? 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:37.839 The Prime Minister. But by the way, I quite like Albow. 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:40.159 I think he's all right, except in this regard. I 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:42.960 think he's hopeless. This talk about nanny state. I mean 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:48.640 he's accused the Crossfitch in recent weeks of wanting to 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:53.120 ban gambling. I mean, heaven no one's trying to ban gambling. 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:58.159 Where does pushing for effective harm minimization measures. So there's 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:03.080 this talk about the nanny state. You know, it's it's 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:05.280 really trying to distract people. You know, hey, look over 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:09.120 here or look over there. Interestingly, a number of us 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:11.800 voted against the bill in the House of Representatives, which 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:14.240 raised a few eyebrows. In fact, most of the Crossbench 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:18.960 and two of the Opposition members, to their credit, voted 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:22.560 against the bill for a range of reasons. But my 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:27.080 reasoning was, if this bill becomes law, it will allow 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:30.839 this government and future governments, whether they Labor or coalition, 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:35.280 to say the job is done. Then I think that 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:38.320 will be the end of reform for the foreseeable future. 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:42.679 The government claims this legislation is just a stepping stone 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:46.320 to further reform. But I don't believe them. You know 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:49.680 they're going to They're going to say, you know, these 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:54.159 are the most significant reforms in Australia's history. We're the 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:57.520 government of fabulous people. We're letting you punt, but we're 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:02.000 also protecting people, partly particularly need kids. And I don't 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:06.320 think we'll see further before. Hence me, my cross Beach 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:08.880 colleagues to keep chicking away on this one. 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:13.320 Still to come. Has the gambling lobby had a hand 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:24.080 in the government's bill, Andrew, I know you wrote to 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:27.760 the National Anti Corruption Commission last week with concerns about 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:32.040 improper influence on the government by individuals in the gambling industry. 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:35.760 Tell me what exactly you're saying happened here. 0:07:36.080 --> 0:07:39.160 Look, I'm the first to acknowledge that governments have a 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:43.360 right to accept donations, they have a right to be lobbied. 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:47.640 Lobbyists have a right to lobby the government, and governments 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:50.840 have every right to make their own policy decisions and 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:55.360 bring legislation to the Parliament. My concern is, though there 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:59.920 must be a point at which that patronage crosses a lot. 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:03.800 It and becomes improper conduct. And that's the essence of 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:08.080 my concern here and why I've referred individuals in the 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:10.800 government and also in the gambling industry. I've referred them 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:15.040 not by name, that's for the aed Coruption Commission to 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:18.360 work out, but I've referred them generally to the commission 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:22.680 because because I think they have crossed the line that 0:08:23.720 --> 0:08:30.280 people in the individuals in the private sector, through donations, gifts, hospitality, 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:35.640 personal relationships, that they have improperly influenced individuals in the government, 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:39.000 and those individuals have in fact abused their office by 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:40.760 buckling to that influence. 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:42.680 Yeah, and tell me a little more what you mean 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:45.880 by that, by the line that's been crossed. I mean, 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:48.640 what is that line to you? And why do you 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:51.000 think that it's been walked over? 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:54.959 Yeah? Well, I think the gambling gambling issue is really 0:08:55.000 --> 0:09:00.319 interesting and it might be unique in that there is 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:05.480 so much research steering a government towards a certain policy position. 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:09.640 There is so much public pressure pushing a government to 0:09:09.920 --> 0:09:13.640 a certain position. You know, the public interest is so 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:16.360 clearly served by the government adopting a certain position. 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:20.080 The Albanezi government has failed Australians when it comes to 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:25.280 banning gambling advertising. A thousand days ago, you were given 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:27.280 the blueprint a multi. 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:29.920 Will the government ban be true to the Murphy Report 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:34.040 and ban all inducements in gambling and gambling advertising to 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:36.760 protect us straining. The question will be whether the Prime 0:09:36.800 --> 0:09:39.240 Minister and Angus Taylor. 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:43.840 Have the courage to do the right thing here man up. 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:46.400 And then for the government in this case to go 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:50.160 completely in the opposite direction. I think that has crossed 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:53.320 the line. I can't think of any other issue in 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:56.520 the sixteen years of it in Parliament where that research, 0:09:56.600 --> 0:10:00.200 the public interest in public opinion is so overwhelmingly, so 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:04.040 strongly in one direction, and the government has so completely 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:07.439 and utterly ignored it. It is just so it odds. 0:10:08.840 --> 0:10:11.560 I think a line has been crossed. And when you 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:17.000 consider what we do know about patronage, we know that 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:22.920 over four years, the gambling industry has donated about five 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:27.160 million dollars to the Labor Party. Over that same period, 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:29.760 the gambling industry has donated about four and a half 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:35.520 million dollars to the coalition parties. You can't tell me 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:42.240 that when an industry donates almost ten million dollars, you 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:47.200 can't tell me that's supporting someone that's buying someone. No 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:51.720 one hands over that enormous amount of money without expecting 0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:52.960 a return on that investment. 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:59.440 Will continue to promote the legislation is before the Parliament 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:04.480 today hasn't been influenced from certainly my position has not 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:09.480 been influenced in the way that as suggested. I'm sure 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:12.240 of all of the members on this side, and don't. 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:12.640 You said that. 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:15.880 Plenty of people have told you that the Knack won't investigate, 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:18.719 and I think part of that is around I mean, 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:21.880 we know that the Knack can't investigate the quote unquote government. 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:25.520 It needs a specific remit, it needs individual politicians or 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:28.200 staff to look into as part of a referral. So 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:30.760 what is it that you're actually asking the Knack to 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:31.520 look into. 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:38.160 Well, I am asking them to investigate whether individuals in 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:42.720 the private sector have unduly influenced individuals in the government, 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:46.120 and whether those individuals in the government have in fact 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:50.040 abused their office. I say individuals, because you've made the 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:54.160 point already, Reuby, that that can't investigate a government, it 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:58.920 can investigate individuals. That's why I've worded my referral in 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:01.600 the way done. I think I think the people who 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:04.280 looked at me and said, I mate, you're very very 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:08.839 optimistic here. You're dreaming that that reflects this, this mindset 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:12.439 that this is okay, that the government ultimately could do 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:15.760 whatever it wants, this mindset that so long as donations 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:20.320 are declared, so long as hospitality is declared, it's okay. 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:24.079 And I say, it's only okay to a point. 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:27.280 And in amongst all of the politics and the policy, 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:29.400 it can be easy to lose sight of the human 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:32.679 impact of all of this. We heard from former role 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:36.880 player Luke Bateman earlier this month about his experience. 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:41.280 I was stealing money from my own mother to fund 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:45.280 my gamming addiction, and that would be because I would lose. 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:46.840 I would have no money, and then I would be 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:49.160 offered an inducement and I'd say, oh, well, I need 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:51.760 to I need to get some money because I've got 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:53.920 a thousand dollars worth of bonus BET's waiting for me. 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:56.240 And then I would steal money from home. 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:58.320 What did you think of his testimony. 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:01.439 I thought it was compelled and it was a shame 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:06.199 that some political operatives did their best to discredit him afterwards. 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:08.920 I thought that was very compelling and what I liked 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:11.079 about his testimony is he brought us back to the 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:12.040 human face of this. 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:17.120 They're zero welfare checks done whatsoever. And in the opposite, 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:19.840 not only do they not check on welfare, they encourage 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:23.160 you to lose more when they can clearly see that 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:26.360 your betting activity is incredibly harmful instructive. 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:33.080 Too much of this issue became a political debate. It 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:36.400 was all about numbers and stats and whether it be 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:39.280 the amount of money donated to political parties or the 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:42.040 number of estimated number of people with gave the addictions. 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:45.200 So I certainly did my best to try and bring 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:48.320 it back to the human side of this. I spoke 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:51.839 you to countless people either who have an addiction or 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:55.760 recovered from an addiction, or their mumbers, or their dads, 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:59.160 or their brothers, or the sisters, sons or their daughters 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:02.480 that were colleague, their friends. I've spoken to so many people, 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:05.080 and I've heard so many stories, and every one of 0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:09.960 those stories is an intensely human story. And of course 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:13.520 the most tragic part of the human side of this 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:17.319 is the suicides. The research has tell me that at 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:21.920 least four hundred Australians are suiciding every year on account 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:25.680 of the gambling addiction, which means in the three years 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:29.640 since the Murphy Report was handed to the government, over 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:34.359 a thousand Australians have suicided. And by the way, gamblers 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:37.480 had lost in Australia, not gambled, but lost over one 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:41.840 hundred billion dollars since that report was handed to the government. 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:47.920 Research out of Victoria several years ago found that gambling 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:50.400 addiction is the second most prevalent cause of crime in 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:54.120 that state after drug addiction. So then you've got all 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:57.040 the victims of crime who have had money sold them 0:14:57.040 --> 0:15:00.320 from them, Ruby, I could go on longer than this, 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:03.760 longer than all the podcasts you'll do on the rest 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:06.360 of your life. I record just telling you the stories. 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:10.000 So when I criticize the government with the sport of 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:14.120 the opposition, so how they've dealt with gambling reform, one 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:16.960 of the things I single out is their lack of humanity, 0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:21.680 because if you care about humanity, you wouldn't stop at 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:23.280 what went through the house to representatives. 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:27.280 Well, Andrew, thank you so much for speaking with me. 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:28.920 Thank you, Ruby, it's a pleasure. 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:33.480 And if this story has raised any issues for you, 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:36.880 help is available through Lifeline. On thirteen eleven, fourteen. 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:51.880 Seven Am was a daily show from Solstice Media. It's 0:15:51.880 --> 0:15:56.640 made by Anigus Bastow, Chris Dane Gate, Crystal Color, Renei Auckland, 0:15:57.040 --> 0:16:02.720 Ruby Jones, Travis Evans, Zoltenfe Jr. And me Daniel James. 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:06.280 Our theme music is by Ned Beckley and Josh Hogan 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:09.440 of Envelope Porteo. And if you'd like to support seven 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:12.520 Am in bringing you the news independently and without fear 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:15.400 or favor, please follow the show on your chosen podcast 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:20.400 platform and on our social media accounts on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:23.080 and LinkedIn. Have a great weekend.