1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,440
Speaker 1: This is an interesting topic. There's legislation before Parliament now.

2
00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:10,120
Speaker 1: It's an amendment to an Act that has created the

3
00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:16,479
Speaker 1: Preventative Health Essay Council, which is a council advising the

4
00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:20,480
Speaker 1: Government the Minister about different aspects of health and Sarah Game.

5
00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,840
Speaker 1: Former a one nation Upper House MP now with the

6
00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:29,440
Speaker 1: Fair Go for Australians party, has an amendment to basically

7
00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:35,680
Speaker 1: ensure that people on this council don't belong to the

8
00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,680
Speaker 1: big groups, the big farmer group, the big foods, whatever

9
00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:43,360
Speaker 1: it might be, just to not have a conflict of interests.

10
00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:47,040
Speaker 1: There's been people who have been advising Sarah Game and

11
00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,560
Speaker 1: lobbying for this directly to the government. One is doctor

12
00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:56,000
Speaker 1: James Muki, who's a renowned ophthalmologist in adelaide I specialist

13
00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:59,080
Speaker 1: at the very least. And the other is research scientist

14
00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,920
Speaker 1: and clinical nutritionists Tim Yager, who joins me now, Tim

15
00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:03,440
Speaker 1: good evening.

16
00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:04,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having me.

17
00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,000
Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about what you're hoping to

18
00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,320
Speaker 1: achieve and what's the history of the council. It's been

19
00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:11,959
Speaker 1: operating now for what four or five years.

20
00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:17,120
Speaker 2: In Essay was established in twenty twenty by the Marshall government.

21
00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,840
Speaker 2: New department within Essay Health. It sits within Essay Health

22
00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,800
Speaker 2: and then it was rebranded as preventive I keep getting

23
00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:30,320
Speaker 2: this wrong too. It's not preventative. It's preventive Health Essay

24
00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:35,479
Speaker 2: rebanded by Peter Malinowskus's government in twenty two all right,

25
00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,640
Speaker 2: and more recently they've had the legislation come through giving

26
00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:43,119
Speaker 2: it the department its powers and also talking about this

27
00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:47,080
Speaker 2: Preventive Health Essay Council to advise both the Health Minister

28
00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:48,040
Speaker 2: and the CEO.

29
00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:53,120
Speaker 1: Okay, So preventive health that means taking steps to prevent

30
00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,960
Speaker 1: bad health. Correct, So you know, dietary, advised nutrition, all

31
00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:57,160
Speaker 1: of that.

32
00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:00,960
Speaker 2: Well, if you look at all the chronic disease, the

33
00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,720
Speaker 2: four major killers in Australia and in factory worldwide type

34
00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:10,480
Speaker 2: two diabetes, cardiovascular disease, neuroge generation and cancers. So they're

35
00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:15,000
Speaker 2: all chronic sort of diseases that are probably preventative to

36
00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:17,320
Speaker 2: a large degree. So we know that there's certain risk

37
00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,280
Speaker 2: factors or causative factors and a lot of the lifestyle

38
00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:24,880
Speaker 2: dietary things that we know are the biggest levers for

39
00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,440
Speaker 2: changing chronic health. So if you want to change ramping

40
00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:31,080
Speaker 2: at the Royal Adelaide Hospital, stop people getting sick. And

41
00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:33,600
Speaker 2: the big, big impulse to our health and our budget

42
00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:39,799
Speaker 2: is chronic diseases. And standard medical paradigms are really fantastic

43
00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:44,040
Speaker 2: for acute trauma and acute injury and affection, but when

44
00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:47,600
Speaker 2: it comes to preventative health, maybe more innovative or going

45
00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:51,160
Speaker 2: back to nature. So if you think of the biggest levers,

46
00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,640
Speaker 2: look to nature and emulate what you would have seen

47
00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,639
Speaker 2: in nature historically, and you're probably going to be well

48
00:02:57,680 --> 00:02:58,680
Speaker 2: on your way to good health.

49
00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:02,080
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, well makes sense. So concerns with the

50
00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:06,679
Speaker 1: council Obviously you're worried about the people who are on

51
00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:10,040
Speaker 1: the advisory board and having an interest in things that

52
00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:11,840
Speaker 1: may not create good health.

53
00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:18,800
Speaker 2: Well, it's about independence and independent advice. And we know

54
00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:22,840
Speaker 2: from studies that as soon as you introduce incentives and

55
00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:26,960
Speaker 2: money into the equation, people make different decisions. So if

56
00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:34,320
Speaker 2: the money comes from big food pharmaceutical, decisions will be

57
00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:39,880
Speaker 2: swayed by that money or any other incentives that they

58
00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,200
Speaker 2: might give you. And that scene in the studies. An

59
00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:47,600
Speaker 2: example is we know that prescribing habits of GPS can

60
00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,480
Speaker 2: be altered by a simple lunch by a pharmaceutical rep

61
00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,720
Speaker 2: they'll prescribe that brand more. We know that, you know,

62
00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:57,880
Speaker 2: that's the smallest type of incentive that you'll probably find,

63
00:03:58,000 --> 00:03:58,320
Speaker 2: all right.

64
00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:03,280
Speaker 1: So obviously then legislation needed to ensure the people on

65
00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:07,760
Speaker 1: the Council of Health Professionals, I would imagine primarily is

66
00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:11,960
Speaker 1: what you'd be looking for, maybe not directly, but you know,

67
00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:16,240
Speaker 1: having some sort of understanding of preventive health, but advising

68
00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:17,320
Speaker 1: the government according to.

69
00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:21,760
Speaker 2: There are a number of criteria they've included, first nation expertise,

70
00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:27,560
Speaker 2: culture expertise, financial expertise, expertise in upscaling programs for health.

71
00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,280
Speaker 2: One of the amendments that we Sarah's helping us get

72
00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:36,080
Speaker 2: through is a clinical interpretation and translation criteria. So we

73
00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:40,080
Speaker 2: were just talking off air. If you're not doing the

74
00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:45,000
Speaker 2: right preventative outcome a strategy or tactic, you're not going

75
00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:47,560
Speaker 2: to get the outcome. So it won't matter how many

76
00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:49,839
Speaker 2: other experts in any other field that you have to

77
00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,160
Speaker 2: advise how to upscale this, how to create the right

78
00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,800
Speaker 2: budget for it. If you're not doing the right thing,

79
00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,440
Speaker 2: you're not going to get a good clinical outcome.

80
00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:01,240
Speaker 1: All right, So legislation needed to all the amendment needed

81
00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:05,000
Speaker 1: to beef up the legislation, the original legislation that created

82
00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,159
Speaker 1: the councilor to ensure the right people are on board.

83
00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,839
Speaker 1: Do you do you know from other MPs they likely

84
00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:11,640
Speaker 1: to support this?

85
00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,440
Speaker 2: I think so so, Doctor Nicky and I. We've been

86
00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:22,320
Speaker 2: lobbying liberal labor, smaller parties, independents. We've spoken to all

87
00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:26,400
Speaker 2: of them. We've done presentations about preventative health and our

88
00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:28,440
Speaker 2: big thing that we were talking to a lot of

89
00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:30,680
Speaker 2: peoples type two diabetes because it's sort of a bit

90
00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,680
Speaker 2: of a foundational for the o's other three that already mentioned,

91
00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,560
Speaker 2: So if you can tackle that, you'll actually improve those

92
00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,880
Speaker 2: other three chronic diseases as well. So yes, they and

93
00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:42,520
Speaker 2: we were a little bit late to the party where

94
00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,479
Speaker 2: that came to the legislation. We didn't realize that it

95
00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:49,320
Speaker 2: had gone out for consultation. Doctu Muki had never heard

96
00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:51,919
Speaker 2: of it in his medical associations. I hadn't heard of

97
00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,920
Speaker 2: it in my clinical associations, so it was sort of

98
00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:59,119
Speaker 2: well on its way. So when we were made aware

99
00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:01,479
Speaker 2: of it and got hold of it and asked can

100
00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,760
Speaker 2: we make some what we thought were minor but very

101
00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:10,919
Speaker 2: important changes, it was maybe too late. So the legislation

102
00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,400
Speaker 2: passed as it was, and now Sarah's sort of stepped

103
00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:16,520
Speaker 2: in to help us and make some amendments, all.

104
00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,480
Speaker 1: Right, And yeah, the Health Minister's probably crucial to this

105
00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,080
Speaker 1: is he does he seem supportive. I'm sure you've both

106
00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:23,000
Speaker 1: spoken with him.

107
00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:27,240
Speaker 2: Yes, I think so, Yes, I think definitely. Yeah. I

108
00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:31,520
Speaker 2: mean conflict of interests occupational health and safety. You probably

109
00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,960
Speaker 2: might be aware of, you know, the hierarchy, your criteria

110
00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:37,239
Speaker 2: and that, so you don't have to do something, don't

111
00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,000
Speaker 2: do it if it's risky. You know, has the injury thing,

112
00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:42,640
Speaker 2: so we want the counsel, so that's not an option.

113
00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:45,840
Speaker 2: And then if you can, you want to engineer something

114
00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:50,560
Speaker 2: that completely eliminates the risk, and then you have managing

115
00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:55,440
Speaker 2: the risk administratively managing the risk. So the legislation as

116
00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,400
Speaker 2: it is as it sits now was really about managing

117
00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:02,480
Speaker 2: that conflict. So we wanted a hierarchy one level above

118
00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:06,320
Speaker 2: where you try to more or less eliminate the risk.

119
00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:10,200
Speaker 2: So that's sort of the clause that we've had introduced

120
00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,240
Speaker 2: where if you have a financial tie or other sort

121
00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:19,200
Speaker 2: of incentive tie to pharmaceutical, tobacco, food industries, actually you

122
00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:20,480
Speaker 2: can't be part of the council.

123
00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,440
Speaker 1: Makes sense. I'm not sure if I'm surprised. I think

124
00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,520
Speaker 1: I'm not to find that ninety six percent of funding

125
00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,640
Speaker 1: for the Therapeutic Goods Administration comes from the farmer industry.

126
00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,040
Speaker 2: It's true, it's true, and I think actually Australia is

127
00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:41,280
Speaker 2: one of the highest Our independent independent regulator is funded

128
00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:45,160
Speaker 2: by pharmaceutical industries. You have to be a bit careful.

129
00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:47,960
Speaker 2: There's a bit annoyanced because you throw that out and

130
00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:52,200
Speaker 2: anybody goes, what do you mean they're paid like ninety

131
00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:54,720
Speaker 2: six or ninety nine percent of I think it's a

132
00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,200
Speaker 2: little bit less than ninety nine is paid by but

133
00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:01,520
Speaker 2: I think a lot of that is actually in administration fees.

134
00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,360
Speaker 2: So to apply to get your drug approved, you have

135
00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:07,880
Speaker 2: to pay a fee, and I think that's part of

136
00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:09,040
Speaker 2: that percentage. Right.

137
00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:15,240
Speaker 1: Wow, Okay. The bill put up by Sarah Game, informed

138
00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:20,720
Speaker 1: by Say based clinical nutritionist Tim Yeager yourself, who warns,

139
00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:24,680
Speaker 1: as you have tonight about trying to manage a compromised member.

140
00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,640
Speaker 1: And how would you I guess you know you'd have

141
00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:31,720
Speaker 1: to read every line they that appears in the minutes.

142
00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:36,840
Speaker 2: I guess you have to declare your your conflicts of

143
00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:41,680
Speaker 2: interest beforehand, usually for committees and other sorts of associations.

144
00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,280
Speaker 2: See personally, if doctor Muki was here, who you're a

145
00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:52,680
Speaker 2: direct personal example, when he was on a particular advisory board,

146
00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,520
Speaker 2: he found there was someone with a very significant conflict

147
00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:59,600
Speaker 2: of interest that was advising. When he asked for it

148
00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:03,040
Speaker 2: to be delt with, it just sort of sat there

149
00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,679
Speaker 2: and he asked and asked and asked, and finally it

150
00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:06,720
Speaker 2: sort of got actioned.

151
00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,840
Speaker 1: Right, I'd be embarrassed was that one declared or undeclared.

152
00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:17,840
Speaker 2: And I don't know with the declaration, do people think

153
00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,160
Speaker 2: that I just got I don't know, half a million

154
00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,680
Speaker 2: dollars to do a research project on X for X

155
00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,719
Speaker 2: pharmaceutical company or food industry. Does that mean that all

156
00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:32,880
Speaker 2: my expertise is null and void? Because I think people

157
00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:36,199
Speaker 2: are worried, and I think even the health Minister and

158
00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,560
Speaker 2: chief executive or so yeah, chief executive of Preventive Health

159
00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,640
Speaker 2: essay was also concerned that we shouldn't limit people with

160
00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:48,760
Speaker 2: certain expertise, you know, professors and other academics. So there's

161
00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:50,080
Speaker 2: a careful balance we.

162
00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:50,840
Speaker 1: Have to balance.

163
00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:53,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, But as we just already talked about, as soon

164
00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:58,480
Speaker 2: as you introduce money, even small amounts. Yeah, changes changes

165
00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:02,280
Speaker 2: what you say. Another example is even in research papers,

166
00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,800
Speaker 2: so independent research papers often find very different findings to

167
00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:13,959
Speaker 2: research funded by pharmaceutical and former evidators of Lancer New

168
00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,319
Speaker 2: in England Journal of Medicine have come out and said

169
00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:21,520
Speaker 2: the papers, we can't trust the papers anymore because the

170
00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:26,360
Speaker 2: journals are actually even funded by the pharmaceutical companies. So

171
00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:31,440
Speaker 2: you can imagine what published papers take priority in those journals.

172
00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,000
Speaker 1: Well, absolutely so. I mean there's almost got to be

173
00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:37,760
Speaker 1: what is it, legislation or an ethics rule by the

174
00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,000
Speaker 1: publisher or whatever it is it says we can't do

175
00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:40,600
Speaker 1: this anymore.

176
00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:44,199
Speaker 2: Maybe we could introduce our particular conflict of interest clause

177
00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,600
Speaker 2: into a lot of our other legislation and committees.

178
00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:49,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, why not? So okay, this comes to a book tomorrow,

179
00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,400
Speaker 1: I understand, very soon, anyway.

180
00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:52,920
Speaker 2: Very very soon.

181
00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:57,120
Speaker 1: Yes, okay, so potentially as soon as tomorrow. And as

182
00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:01,080
Speaker 1: Sarah Game is quoted as saying this particular, a preventive

183
00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:05,040
Speaker 1: council health counsel needs to be squeaky clean above any

184
00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,120
Speaker 1: suspicion and equip with clinical experts who have experienced in

185
00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:12,920
Speaker 1: implementing preventive action and measuring their success. And the amendments

186
00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:18,120
Speaker 1: go towards that, which seems a very sensible, common sense approach, and.

187
00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:21,720
Speaker 2: That that's why we think it should pass. Yes, okay,

188
00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:22,959
Speaker 2: well we'll see cap support.

189
00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:24,559
Speaker 1: We will see tomorrow.

190
00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:25,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, we will.

191
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,040
Speaker 1: Tim. I appreciate you coming in tonight to have a

192
00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,520
Speaker 1: chat about that. It seems a you know, important issue

193
00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:36,040
Speaker 1: that if you have a preventive health counsel advising the

194
00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:38,880
Speaker 1: government and the CEO of the Health Department, they should

195
00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:43,040
Speaker 1: be absolutely free of influence from you know, the big

196
00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,960
Speaker 1: industries that could potentially benefit as a result of the decisions.

197
00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,880
Speaker 2: Definitely have it possible eliminate the conflict?

198
00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:51,800
Speaker 1: All right, Clinical nutrition, it's Tim yagum I guess thank

199
00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:52,520
Speaker 1: you for coming in.

200
00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:53,480
Speaker 2: Tim, thanks for having a