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Speaker 1: Apoche production.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to real crime at Adam Shand. I'm your host,

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Speaker 2: Adam Shand. As early days ago on the policing job,

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Speaker 2: this was a shocker. October fifteenth, nineteen seventy seven, nineteen

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Speaker 2: year old Probationary Constable Tony Russell attended a call.

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Speaker 1: With his sergeant at a factory.

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Speaker 2: In Paddington owned by wallpaper designer Florence Broadhurst.

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Speaker 3: Florence Broadhurst, a celebrated figure in Sydney's design scene, was

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Speaker 3: reported missing from her Paddington workshop after neighbours noticed the

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Speaker 3: factory doors left open.

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Speaker 2: The police searched the premises and at first found no

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Speaker 2: sign of Broadhurst. Then Tony needed to use the bathroom,

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Speaker 2: and what he found in there.

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Speaker 1: Altered the course of his life.

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Speaker 3: A coroner's post mortem found that Florence Broadhurst had been

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Speaker 3: brutally bashed.

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Speaker 2: The seventy eight year old Broadhurst had been bludgeoned with

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Speaker 2: a piece of timber and her head jammed down the

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Speaker 2: toilet in an apparent attempt to drown her.

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Speaker 3: Despite her reward offered by the New South Wales Premiere,

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Speaker 3: no suspect has ever been charged and the murder remains

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Speaker 3: unsolved nearly five decades on.

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Speaker 2: This was almost the beginning of Tony's police career and

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Speaker 2: was also the beginning of the end. The case was

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Speaker 2: never solved, and it's always stayed with Tony. He left

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Speaker 2: the force not long after and never received any treatment

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Speaker 2: for the trauma he suffered that day. In recent years,

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Speaker 2: Tony has dedicated himself to assisting other police cadets who

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Speaker 2: suffered post traumatic stress injuries, and he's kindly agreed to

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Speaker 2: discuss that work and how finding Florence Broadhurst changed everything

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Speaker 2: in his life.

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Speaker 1: A Tony, there are you going, Adam?

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Speaker 2: Good mate, Great to talk to you again. We met

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Speaker 2: while we were making a TV show about this, and

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Speaker 2: it struck me how a that the impact that it

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Speaker 2: had on you stayed with you, but also how your

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Speaker 2: evidence on that critical first day of the investigation was

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Speaker 2: almost ignored.

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Speaker 1: Is that how it sat with you?

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Speaker 4: Well, it still sits with me that way, because I

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Speaker 4: wonder if the evidence that I held could have changed

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Speaker 4: the course of the investigation. There are a lot of

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Speaker 4: facts overlooked or unknown, and there was no statement given

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Speaker 4: by me, So it still haunts me that maybe I

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Speaker 4: don't know. The police may have never followed the right channels.

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Speaker 2: Well, details are critically important in those early hours of

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Speaker 2: any investigation. I think that's I think you did right.

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Speaker 2: You're very humble about that, but try to set the

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Speaker 2: scene for us on that day what happened.

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Speaker 4: I think this is approximate time, about nine or ten

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Speaker 4: in the morning on that day, and I think might

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Speaker 4: have been someday. It was my first day at Paddington

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Speaker 4: and I took a phone call from a chap who

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Speaker 4: lived across the road from Florence Broad Versus Factory in mcaulay,

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Speaker 4: who expressed concern for Florence as lights had been left

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Speaker 4: on all night in the factory and the front door

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Speaker 4: was still open. So I said, okay, we'll come down

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Speaker 4: and have a look. And that's when I grabbed the

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Speaker 4: sergeant and we said we've got a job. And we

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Speaker 4: drove down to Ralston and we met the neighbor and

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Speaker 4: we suggested he stay outside because you wouldn't know what's inside.

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Speaker 4: It was agreed when we walked in at the sergeant

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Speaker 4: would go upstairs and check the office area, and I'd

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Speaker 4: checked the factory. When you're searching for stuff, you didn't

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Speaker 4: know what you're going to find. So it was a

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Speaker 4: little bit apprehensive, searched the factory, coming to the last

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Speaker 4: bit of it. At the rear door, there's a red

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Speaker 4: door that was slightly ajar and there was about a

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Speaker 4: twenty liter ten plastic with a light of timber in it.

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Speaker 4: And remember picking a timber up and noticing all the

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Speaker 4: red substance on the end of that timber, and I thought,

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Speaker 4: I'll just leave that there for later and see what

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Speaker 4: it is. I then ventured upstairs to meet the sergeant

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Speaker 4: upstairs in the office, and we checked the kitchen. At

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Speaker 4: the office. We did notice that the hallway with windows open,

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Speaker 4: was wet. The carpet was soaking wet, and we thought

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Speaker 4: because there was rain overnight, maybe the water had got

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Speaker 4: in or if anyone was in there, they'd gone out

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Speaker 4: the window. There was nothing out of water. There was

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Speaker 4: a handbag on the desk and I can tell you

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Speaker 4: this it had cash in that handbag. There's coffee cups

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Speaker 4: on the table. And as we were about to leave,

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Speaker 4: I thought I better use to loo, so I said,

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Speaker 4: as a sergeant, did he check the toilet and he hadn't,

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Speaker 4: so I ventured to use the toilet, of course, and

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Speaker 4: the door was a bit stiff so we'll give it

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Speaker 4: a good shoved. As I've opened the door, the first

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Speaker 4: thing I've seen was the head of Florence Broaders in

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Speaker 4: the toilet with the right arm was up around the

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Speaker 4: head and the head was leaning into the toilet. And

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Speaker 4: I'm thinking the bright red had and it was wet.

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Speaker 4: It's just this looking pile of pulp and blood.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was.

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Speaker 4: I quickly exited the building. I redentally fainted. I tell you,

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Speaker 4: I was shocked. And on the way up the sergeant

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Speaker 4: see me, said what's wrong, and I basically said, she's

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Speaker 4: in the toilet and I went outside for fresh air.

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Speaker 4: I just yeah, it wasn't in a good way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And that image is the one that stayed with

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Speaker 2: you ever since, isn't it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's images. You'll never forget that image. It's just

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Speaker 4: like I've seen worse things in the police force, there

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Speaker 4: was that one thing with one image that. Not expecting

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Speaker 4: to see anything, of course, you just go into the loof,

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Speaker 4: for goodness sake, and you walk in and see that. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: it was a shock. It was a big shock. What

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Speaker 4: happened next, I think the sergeant put put a call

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Speaker 4: into the detectives or the detectives turned up. I couldn't

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Speaker 4: tell you any any cars turned up. I was standing

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Speaker 4: outside the sergeant and the detective approached me and said,

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Speaker 4: they're not going to include me investigation. They're going to

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Speaker 4: not mention I was there. And the purpose of that,

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Speaker 4: they said, was because I was too new for a start,

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Speaker 4: and they didn't want me involved in the investigation or

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Speaker 4: the coroner's court and all those other things, and being

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Speaker 4: green like it was my first aim at Padou. I agreed,

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Speaker 4: not knowing the repercussions of that, of course, so my

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Speaker 4: name was sort of eliminated from the investigation of that period.

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Speaker 5: So strange, and I think from memory, the body was

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Speaker 5: removed from the bathroom and then I think laid outside somewhere,

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Speaker 5: and that was pretty much the evidence that was then

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Speaker 5: collected that she was found in that place.

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Speaker 4: So your evidence was erased. Yeah, well there's no evidence

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Speaker 4: because they never asked me anything. The body was removed

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Speaker 4: from the toilet and moved to the office area. That's

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Speaker 4: when one of the detectives come and got me and

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Speaker 4: said you should come in and have a look at this.

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Speaker 4: And when they dragged her out, she was fully closed,

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Speaker 4: remembering that everyone's tried to point this a Glover.

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Speaker 1: John Wayne Glove of the Granny Killer.

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Speaker 4: That's right now. Florence brought us was fully dressed when

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Speaker 4: they removed her from the toilet. The reason I know

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Speaker 4: that is is they had to do with rape test

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Speaker 4: kit or sexual assault kit is what they ever called it.

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Speaker 4: The doctor performed that test in the office and we

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Speaker 4: were present, and I was present there just after she

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Speaker 4: was pulled out, So no one's ever said this, all

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Speaker 4: the police that were there, there is no record of

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Speaker 4: her being pulled out of that toilet fully dressed.

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Speaker 2: So the critical evidence that should have been the starting

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Speaker 2: point was just overlooked. And it's that excuse that you

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Speaker 2: were too young, green or whatever and they wanted to

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Speaker 2: keep you out of the investigation just doesn't hold water,

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Speaker 2: even in the tone of the times.

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Speaker 1: That's an odd decision.

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Speaker 4: Well, it brings me back. I'm pretty angry about this

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Speaker 4: for the simple reason is I found out years later,

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Speaker 4: and no one's ever bought this up. Where did the

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Speaker 4: money go? And was in the handbag? It was present

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Speaker 4: when we found.

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Speaker 1: It, right, So you saw the money? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: And how much was it, by the way, eight thousand dollars.

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Speaker 1: Eight thousand dollars and the sergeant counted it, and then

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Speaker 1: what happened to it?

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Speaker 4: I have no idea, and I wonder, Look, I don't

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Speaker 4: know what happened. I'm just assuming here, and you probably

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Speaker 4: shouldn't make assumptions. Assumptions have repercussions. But I don't know.

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Speaker 4: When I walked upstairs, the sergeant said there was eight

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Speaker 4: thousand dollars in the handbag. There it is, akay, keep

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Speaker 4: looking around? Why? Why?

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Speaker 1: And that's critically.

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Speaker 2: If you'd given a statement, it would have been expected

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Speaker 2: that you would have put that conversation with the sergeant

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Speaker 2: in that statement, and it would have made it into evidence. Yes,

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Speaker 2: And because you never gave a statement, that's a critical thing.

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Speaker 2: Because one of the motives for Florence's murder was always robbery.

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Speaker 2: And if eight thousand dollars was left there in full view,

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Speaker 2: and that certainly contradicts.

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Speaker 4: That it wasn't a robbery. It was a personal murder.

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Speaker 4: You could tell by the way she was, the injuries

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Speaker 4: and the treatment, and the way these people went around

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Speaker 4: and knowing that the money was there. I've always said

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Speaker 4: the same thing, it was not a robbery. If it

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Speaker 4: was a robbery, they would have taken everything they could.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and you talk about the injuries inflicted, and we

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Speaker 2: go back to that piece of timber that you saw

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Speaker 2: when you were searching with the red substance that was

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Speaker 2: almost certainly Florence's blood, and.

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Speaker 1: That had been used.

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Speaker 2: I think it was a piece of timber that was

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Speaker 2: used to mix paints and dyes for the wallpaper samples

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Speaker 2: that she was making.

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Speaker 1: That's right, and that apparently was used to bludgeon her.

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Speaker 2: And she was hit up to ten times and nose

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Speaker 2: was broken, eye socket fractured. This was, as you say, say,

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Speaker 2: a very personal murder, somebody with a lot of anger.

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Speaker 2: And after that they've stuffed the toilet bowl with fabric,

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Speaker 2: filled it up, and then shoved her head into it

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Speaker 2: to try to drown her. This is someone who's trying

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Speaker 2: to teach her a very final and fatal lesson.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right. And I wonder if the investigation took

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Speaker 4: the wrong course because of the like of the evidence

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Speaker 4: that I could have supplied, or they relied on what

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Speaker 4: they've seen.

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Speaker 1: Well, indeed, is that how you felt.

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Speaker 4: Look, I didn't know the money was gone until twenty

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Speaker 4: and eighteen when I spoke to you. I hadn't followed

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Speaker 4: the case. My introduction back to this case was in

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Speaker 4: two thousand and six through Catherine Thompson, a screenwriter in Sydney,

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Speaker 4: and Catherine investigated this case for many years and she's

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Speaker 4: got a lot of information. But her and another lady

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Speaker 4: had written a movie about Florence brought us and they

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Speaker 4: were broadcasting it to the drive show host Richard Glover.

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Speaker 4: I think it was I'm not sure thee Yeah, my

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Speaker 4: wife heard the thing on the radio and rang me

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Speaker 4: up at home and said I should ring. And from

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Speaker 4: that I got invited down to the release of this

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Speaker 4: movie and where I met cast and Thompson and Catherine's

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Speaker 4: She still thinks different people killed her. Yeah, she had

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Speaker 4: different views on what everything else was written too. She

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Speaker 4: didn't furl it was all right, And I told Catherine

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Speaker 4: what i'd seen.

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Speaker 1: It certainly wasn't.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's just, I mean there's theories, and I

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Speaker 2: don't want to cast aspersions on the dead, but there's

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Speaker 2: talk about her foster son as being a possible suspect.

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Speaker 2: This just doesn't seem like a random situation. And the

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Speaker 2: idea of John Wayne Glover, the granny killer, being the

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Speaker 2: suspect It gives me doubts too, because he had been

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Speaker 2: there before and looked at some wallpaper. But otherwise the

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Speaker 2: moo didn't seem to fit him at all.

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Speaker 4: Things. It was quite a difference in them for the

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Speaker 4: fact that she wasn't sexually assaulted. She'll still fully clothed.

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Speaker 4: And we know Glover had been to the factory, so

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Speaker 4: and a lot of other people. I met a lady

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Speaker 4: yesterday and it comes out of the blue that you

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Speaker 4: knew Florence Broadhurst. I'm talking nearly forty nine to fifty

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Speaker 4: years later. So a lot of people had been to

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Speaker 4: that factory, yes, to buy wallpaper, But that doesn't point

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Speaker 4: the finger at him like he may have hinted there

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Speaker 4: were other bodies, which he did, but thema was totally different.

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Speaker 4: She was still dressed. No rape. That was as much

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Speaker 4: as I could tell.

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Speaker 2: That's right, because forming yourself al Detective Dennis O'Toole spent

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Speaker 2: years trying to speak to Glover about a cryptic drawing

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Speaker 2: that he'd made which indicated there might have been up

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Speaker 2: to nine victims in his spree, and that it might

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Speaker 2: have included Florence Broadhurst. But beyond that, I just don't

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Speaker 2: see much evidence to support it. But moreover, I mean,

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Speaker 2: we're not here to solve the murder today, Tony. We're

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Speaker 2: here to talk about its impact on you. And there's

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Speaker 2: a young probationary constable and how you were dealt with

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Speaker 2: and I guess how you were prepared back in those

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Speaker 2: days to deal with situations like this.

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Speaker 4: I spent two years at the police Academy. I've had

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Speaker 4: the fingerprint how worked with these bodies, deceased bodies, So

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Speaker 4: I've had a partial you know, I've seen some gory stuff,

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Speaker 4: let's put it that way. But I wasn't always prepared

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Speaker 4: for it. But we've done jobs because I used to

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Speaker 4: work in fingerprints for a while and we've seen a

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Speaker 4: lot of things there. I don't know. I just can't

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Speaker 4: put why does one action or one incident affect you

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Speaker 4: more on the next one. I can't explain that. And

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Speaker 4: I know many cops have been through more trauma than

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Speaker 4: I have, and they've been managed to deal with it,

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Speaker 4: but they've left the police force and they've got PTSD

257
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Speaker 4: and they suffer badly from it. But back in those days,

258
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Speaker 4: there was no support. Look, honestly, I'll turn out. I

259
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Speaker 4: remember walking out of that factory, seeing the neighbor across

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Speaker 4: the road talking to him. I do not remember anything

261
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Speaker 4: for a long period after leaving that the murder scene.

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Speaker 4: I don't remember where I went, what I had done.

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Speaker 4: I don't recall anything. It's just a complete blank. It

264
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Speaker 4: won't go with the details. But yeah, it was. I

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Speaker 4: remember the waking up to the smell of I must

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Speaker 4: have been to the morgue because you can smell it

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Speaker 4: on my clothes, and I've got no memory. Yeah, I

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Speaker 4: know I went to the pub, so I went on

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Speaker 4: a bender, but I don't recall anything. I don't even

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Speaker 4: recall going to work the next day. I don't recall anything.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, so it has an effect on you.

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Speaker 2: It really does, and that those old factory memories, like

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Speaker 2: smelling something is very common in traumatic situations. Those things

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Speaker 2: stay with you, and going to the pub back in

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Speaker 2: those days was also the standard way of dealing with it.

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Speaker 1: Did anybody take you in hands?

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Speaker 2: So listen, TONI, you know it's your first day and

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Speaker 2: you've seen this traumatic thing. Let's go over a beer

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Speaker 2: and chat about it. How did that take place?

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Speaker 4: Nothing don't recall a thing. Nothing, that was just no

281
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Speaker 4: support whatsoever. And I think That's what the biggest thing was.

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Speaker 4: Is like these days there's a whole lot of different

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Speaker 4: stuff you can do to deal with it. They go

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Speaker 4: into canceling and everything else. None of that. Back in

285
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Speaker 4: my day, it was expected to just deal with it.

286
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Speaker 2: You asked that question about why this incident affected you

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Speaker 2: more than others, and this type of thing. But I

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Speaker 2: can't help but think that because your evidence was you raised,

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Speaker 2: and your presence at the scene was you raised, it's

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Speaker 2: almost like it didn't happen. And I think that would

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Speaker 2: have given a really surreal, confounding impression on you, which

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Speaker 2: I think might have been I'm just I'm an amor

293
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Speaker 2: of the psychologist see the son of a psychiatrist, not

294
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Speaker 2: a psychiatrist. But I feel like I feel like that

295
00:16:10,481 --> 00:16:13,921
Speaker 2: might have been the key to this, that if you'd

296
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Speaker 2: gone through the process of giving your evidence in the court,

297
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Speaker 2: or at least giving a statement, there might have been

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Speaker 2: some sort of closure or that's a terrible word, but

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Speaker 2: some finality to that experience.

300
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Speaker 4: I think because there's no finality to it, there was

301
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Speaker 4: no outcome. From the time I left the police force

302
00:16:33,961 --> 00:16:36,561
Speaker 4: until two thousand and six, I really never spoke about

303
00:16:36,561 --> 00:16:40,361
Speaker 4: it to anyone. So many people contacted me after the

304
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Speaker 4: show we've done together, and they all said saying, why

305
00:16:43,721 --> 00:16:45,761
Speaker 4: did you ever tell us? Why didn't we ever know?

306
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Speaker 4: Because there was one of those things you didn't discuss,

307
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Speaker 4: And I was very surprised by that. There was one

308
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Speaker 4: chap I used to work for many, many years ago.

309
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Speaker 4: He's seen the show and he got hold of me

310
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Speaker 4: and he said, how come I know your name and

311
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Speaker 4: name and everything because I used to work for him

312
00:17:05,721 --> 00:17:08,041
Speaker 4: the same thing. How come I never discussed it? I

313
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Speaker 4: don't know just what it Wasn't those things you go

314
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Speaker 4: around talking about. I suppose, well it's not.

315
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Speaker 2: But also I guess in the police force as it

316
00:17:15,481 --> 00:17:18,041
Speaker 2: was back then, it was a paramilitary organization. The rank

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Speaker 2: structure was key, and you followed orders and you were

318
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Speaker 2: told mo or less to forget it.

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Speaker 1: Really that's what you tried to do.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's easy to say it's hard to forget something

321
00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:31,441
Speaker 4: like that, but yeah, basically that's all it is.

322
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Speaker 2: And so let's talk about your service after that. How

323
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Speaker 2: long were you staying at Paddington.

324
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Speaker 4: For I left it, and I think was in nineteen

325
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Speaker 4: seventy nine. I got out. What happened was I'd ask

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Speaker 4: for a transfer out of Paddington or where I was

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Speaker 4: back at Waverley. By that I worked at the Supreme Court.

328
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Speaker 4: In the time I worked at Supreme Court, the Police

329
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Speaker 4: Commissioner's office, I worked at some other places, you know.

330
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Speaker 4: I've done a few things when I was in there.

331
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Speaker 4: But I applied to go to the Highway Patrol, which

332
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Speaker 4: I was accepted, and so it was probably a good thing,

333
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Speaker 4: I remember. But the boss a wavely canceled my transfer

334
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Speaker 4: in the day of old space ago. His excuse was

335
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Speaker 4: there was no one to replace me. I call bs

336
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Speaker 4: on that tell him to stick the job and he's bum.

337
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Speaker 4: Excuse my friends, but I'd had a knock by that stage.

338
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Speaker 4: That division I could not work in anymore. I could

339
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Speaker 4: not work with the bosses. I can tell you stories

340
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Speaker 4: about what they used to get up to.

341
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Speaker 1: Tell me.

342
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Speaker 4: Oh, alcohol is a big problem, a big Alcohol is

343
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Speaker 4: a huge problem in the police force. I remember picking

344
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Speaker 4: the superintendents up. You used to be their drivers at

345
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Speaker 4: night time, pick them up from the club and take

346
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Speaker 4: him I'm drunk. There was a whole pile of other

347
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Speaker 4: things that they used to get up to. But yeah,

348
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Speaker 4: any mister, meaning my biogenius stuff was not thing but alcohol.

349
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Speaker 4: I was told when I joined the police force there

350
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Speaker 4: were three things that get you into trouble booze, birds

351
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Speaker 4: and brass, so try and steer clear a whole three.

352
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Speaker 4: But yeah, I just had enough.

353
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Speaker 1: What was your background? What was your ambition when you joined?

354
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Speaker 1: I mean you're a young man.

355
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Speaker 2: Idealistic, you wanted to be a copper, a good copper,

356
00:19:13,521 --> 00:19:15,201
Speaker 2: you know. Tell us a bit about your background.

357
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Speaker 4: I was raised on a farm down there Gunning in

358
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Speaker 4: New South Wales, down near Golden. Remember I was probably

359
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Speaker 4: about twelve or thirty when I decided I don't want

360
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,321
Speaker 4: to join the police force. Don't ask me why. I

361
00:19:29,441 --> 00:19:32,321
Speaker 4: just wanted to join the police force. And I kept

362
00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:34,120
Speaker 4: my nase clean everywhere because I wanted to join the

363
00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:36,440
Speaker 4: police force. I did not want to get into trouble.

364
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Speaker 4: And I approached a sergeant O'Brien and Gunning one day

365
00:19:40,761 --> 00:19:42,160
Speaker 4: he had a flat to ice. I went across the

366
00:19:42,201 --> 00:19:45,001
Speaker 4: old and change it and I said, how do I

367
00:19:45,041 --> 00:19:48,201
Speaker 4: join the police? He said you're serious and I said yeah,

368
00:19:48,801 --> 00:19:52,001
Speaker 4: and he organized all the paperwork. Then I get a

369
00:19:52,041 --> 00:19:53,801
Speaker 4: phone call and he says, you better come in. We've

370
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:55,801
Speaker 4: got your application forms and everything done.

371
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Speaker 1: Went in.

372
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Speaker 4: Everything played on from there. Then I went in for

373
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Speaker 4: the interviews. The police are gunning a play called John Duff.

374
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Speaker 4: Fantastic sergeant. He was a great blake and helping me

375
00:20:06,801 --> 00:20:12,321
Speaker 4: get through to get the applications done. So yeah, I

376
00:20:12,360 --> 00:20:14,920
Speaker 4: was rowed straight off the farm where I was in

377
00:20:14,961 --> 00:20:17,840
Speaker 4: the farm one day and then Redfern Academy the next

378
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Speaker 4: and going it was.

379
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Speaker 1: It was a big change.

380
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Speaker 4: But I remember when I came to Sydney to the

381
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,881
Speaker 4: Redfern the builded as we had to go and stay

382
00:20:26,921 --> 00:20:30,960
Speaker 4: with people, and my first place was Bondai Road at

383
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Speaker 4: Bondai Beach. Missus Green was the old lady and being

384
00:20:36,521 --> 00:20:38,360
Speaker 4: a country I was even too scared to walk out

385
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:43,360
Speaker 4: and outside every night. It was. It was a trauma

386
00:20:43,441 --> 00:20:46,161
Speaker 4: coming to Sydney by itself. It was like we never

387
00:20:46,281 --> 00:20:48,640
Speaker 4: came to city from the bush. We might have been

388
00:20:48,721 --> 00:20:50,321
Speaker 4: up one or two times, but it would have been

389
00:20:50,360 --> 00:20:54,120
Speaker 4: with family in the outer suburbs. And to be dumped

390
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:56,321
Speaker 4: in Red Fern and find your way to Bondi it

391
00:20:56,441 --> 00:20:59,280
Speaker 4: was me and that was an excursion but we got

392
00:20:59,321 --> 00:21:03,561
Speaker 4: through it. But it was it was interesting days and yeah,

393
00:21:04,201 --> 00:21:05,761
Speaker 4: it was a shock to the system. I can tell

394
00:21:05,761 --> 00:21:08,721
Speaker 4: you and what was your ambition back then in the force.

395
00:21:08,961 --> 00:21:12,921
Speaker 4: What did you see yourself doing. Well, I've always wanted

396
00:21:12,921 --> 00:21:15,440
Speaker 4: to be a copper and I've missed it. I did

397
00:21:15,561 --> 00:21:17,841
Speaker 4: actually try to get back in, but because I had

398
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:19,521
Speaker 4: a broken leg when I was in the police force

399
00:21:20,041 --> 00:21:22,641
Speaker 4: from motorbike praying years later, I tried to get back

400
00:21:22,681 --> 00:21:26,001
Speaker 4: in and you wouldn't believe it. The recruiting sergeant was

401
00:21:26,041 --> 00:21:29,441
Speaker 4: one of my old academy lecturers and he knew about

402
00:21:29,521 --> 00:21:34,360
Speaker 4: my injuries, so he done me a favor. He done

403
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:34,920
Speaker 4: me a favor.

404
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:38,680
Speaker 2: Tell me why did you decide to come back in.

405
00:21:38,801 --> 00:21:41,401
Speaker 2: You had this traumatic experience. It wasn't what you thought

406
00:21:41,441 --> 00:21:44,680
Speaker 2: it was. It was very disappointing, traumatic, and yet you

407
00:21:44,761 --> 00:21:46,400
Speaker 2: wanted to get back in. But I must say, I

408
00:21:46,441 --> 00:21:48,761
Speaker 2: think you still sound like a copper to me, Tony,

409
00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:50,561
Speaker 2: you're a natural born copper.

410
00:21:51,721 --> 00:21:54,400
Speaker 4: Well, funny enough, I did have family. There were coppers

411
00:21:54,441 --> 00:21:57,561
Speaker 4: back in the days, but it was something I always

412
00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:58,961
Speaker 4: wanted to be. It was a goal of mine to

413
00:21:58,961 --> 00:22:02,241
Speaker 4: be a copper. I don't know why it was, but

414
00:22:02,360 --> 00:22:03,880
Speaker 4: at the time I tried to get back in, I

415
00:22:04,001 --> 00:22:07,160
Speaker 4: was self employed, had my own business, and I was

416
00:22:07,241 --> 00:22:10,840
Speaker 4: more mature at running my own business. I honestly think

417
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,880
Speaker 4: joining inn Ese cadet getting sworn in at nineteen may

418
00:22:14,961 --> 00:22:17,721
Speaker 4: have been too young. There's a lot of successful people

419
00:22:17,761 --> 00:22:20,521
Speaker 4: to come through with tradees first, then go in and

420
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 4: they do well. And I do believe that you've got

421
00:22:23,521 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 4: to have the maturity to do so. You've got to

422
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,721
Speaker 4: have some life experience, like my life experience is on

423
00:22:28,801 --> 00:22:30,920
Speaker 4: a farm and go on the school like I did

424
00:22:31,001 --> 00:22:33,521
Speaker 4: work a lot on the farm, but to be taken

425
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Speaker 4: straight from the farm to the city, like a lot

426
00:22:35,481 --> 00:22:39,521
Speaker 4: of other guys were. We adapt differently, but I think

427
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,281
Speaker 4: maturity was one of the things that probably may have

428
00:22:42,360 --> 00:22:46,441
Speaker 4: helped better. At the time I did reapply was yeah,

429
00:22:46,481 --> 00:22:49,880
Speaker 4: I did have a lot of broken bones, but you know,

430
00:22:50,241 --> 00:22:52,441
Speaker 4: I was running my own business. I was more mature.

431
00:22:52,521 --> 00:22:55,200
Speaker 4: I had a wife and a child. It was an

432
00:22:55,281 --> 00:22:58,641
Speaker 4: unfinished thing in my life that I left. I left

433
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Speaker 4: in the heat of the moment where he signed in

434
00:23:00,761 --> 00:23:05,640
Speaker 4: response to how the management ran, and I was one

435
00:23:05,721 --> 00:23:08,640
Speaker 4: thing I regretted as the way I resigned, But to

436
00:23:08,761 --> 00:23:13,721
Speaker 4: say that I still remember after making that decision and

437
00:23:13,921 --> 00:23:16,561
Speaker 4: writing my resummation out at the desk of Waverly that morning.

438
00:23:17,481 --> 00:23:19,921
Speaker 4: The film like the whole world was lifted off my shoulders.

439
00:23:20,481 --> 00:23:23,681
Speaker 4: The stress and the anger and everything left my body.

440
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:25,801
Speaker 4: Also thing at Penrof at the time. I'm driving back

441
00:23:25,801 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 4: to Penoff that day and I just felt, Wow, what

442
00:23:29,761 --> 00:23:34,561
Speaker 4: a release. It was just undescribable rate.

443
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,041
Speaker 1: It's a really important point there.

444
00:23:36,041 --> 00:23:38,400
Speaker 2: And I've done some podcasts with police, as you've probably

445
00:23:38,441 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 2: known your South far As in Victoria, and I often

446
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:42,481
Speaker 2: ask people you got him when you're a bit older,

447
00:23:42,481 --> 00:23:44,801
Speaker 2: and this is I guess these days, this is happening

448
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 2: much more. The people aren't being taken at eighteen or nineteen.

449
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 2: They're told to get a bit of life experience. And

450
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,441
Speaker 2: I look at that situation in Bondai Beach. You mentioned

451
00:23:53,481 --> 00:23:56,160
Speaker 2: Bonda before on your early duties down there, and you

452
00:23:56,241 --> 00:23:57,801
Speaker 2: look at what they had to deal with with that

453
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,561
Speaker 2: horrible incident on Bondai.

454
00:24:00,321 --> 00:24:02,481
Speaker 1: Beach where the Jewish people were attacked.

455
00:24:03,201 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 2: They're going to have to deal with the consequences of

456
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,440
Speaker 2: that day for the rest of their careers. And you

457
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,400
Speaker 2: have to have, I think, in life to deal with trauma.

458
00:24:13,801 --> 00:24:17,120
Speaker 2: Some background of I was talking to a crook yesterday actually,

459
00:24:17,201 --> 00:24:20,640
Speaker 2: and he was saying he'd never learned to self soothe

460
00:24:21,441 --> 00:24:23,920
Speaker 2: it didn't have the experience in life to have that

461
00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 2: self talk to get over the difficulties in his life,

462
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,721
Speaker 2: which led to him being a heroin adtict and being

463
00:24:29,721 --> 00:24:32,640
Speaker 2: a violent criminal and spending half his life in jail.

464
00:24:33,001 --> 00:24:35,120
Speaker 2: I think it's the same for police. If you haven't

465
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,801
Speaker 2: got that experience and maturity, you may struggle. You know,

466
00:24:38,921 --> 00:24:42,841
Speaker 2: you don't have the background and wherewithal to get through

467
00:24:42,921 --> 00:24:43,601
Speaker 2: these moments.

468
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I totally agree with that, and I think this

469
00:24:48,801 --> 00:24:51,521
Speaker 4: is my first daid at Paddington for goodness sake, and

470
00:24:51,761 --> 00:24:54,281
Speaker 4: I walked straight into that. You know, I a complas

471
00:24:54,521 --> 00:24:57,241
Speaker 4: hadn't seen things like that for years, you know, like

472
00:24:57,561 --> 00:25:01,321
Speaker 4: the things I've seen. Okay, I suppose everyone's experience is different,

473
00:25:01,360 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 4: everyone's life and service is different, and you can appreciate

474
00:25:04,681 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 4: that they're there to do a job very unappreciated by

475
00:25:09,001 --> 00:25:12,001
Speaker 4: the public and it's a tough job.

476
00:25:12,561 --> 00:25:13,281
Speaker 1: It's a tough job.

477
00:25:13,561 --> 00:25:16,761
Speaker 4: But I think going into any of the services, the emails,

478
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,640
Speaker 4: the police of fibrigade, any of those services, you've got

479
00:25:20,681 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 4: to sort of expect this is what you're going to face.

480
00:25:23,481 --> 00:25:26,241
Speaker 4: I know a lot of ex police when they left,

481
00:25:26,241 --> 00:25:28,001
Speaker 4: they've gone to the fieries or the ambulance.

482
00:25:29,201 --> 00:25:33,041
Speaker 2: Right, they're sort of in a way institutionalized towards those things, because,

483
00:25:33,201 --> 00:25:36,321
Speaker 2: I mean, police ironically call it the job, but I

484
00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:39,360
Speaker 2: think it's a calling, and I think it's going to

485
00:25:39,441 --> 00:25:41,761
Speaker 2: have an impact on you. And I think some of

486
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,921
Speaker 2: the recruiting methods these days try to portray it as

487
00:25:44,921 --> 00:25:47,640
Speaker 2: a career as a job, and they put all the

488
00:25:47,681 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 2: positives there and the overtime and the good salaries and

489
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,561
Speaker 2: this type of thing, and they try to minimize what

490
00:25:53,681 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 2: we're talking about today that it will have an impact

491
00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 2: on you. You're going to have some duco knocked off

492
00:25:59,321 --> 00:26:02,640
Speaker 2: you sooner or later, and that is going to be

493
00:26:02,721 --> 00:26:04,801
Speaker 2: a feature of your service. Very few people get through

494
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 2: there is without something. Yours was horrific and traumatic virtually

495
00:26:09,721 --> 00:26:13,761
Speaker 2: from day one. How long before it started to I

496
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,920
Speaker 2: guess for you to realize you weren't quite right.

497
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,961
Speaker 4: It didn't take long. I tried to ignore it for

498
00:26:22,041 --> 00:26:27,201
Speaker 4: a long time, but it just builds all the actions

499
00:26:27,281 --> 00:26:28,321
Speaker 4: and the things you see.

500
00:26:28,241 --> 00:26:30,321
Speaker 1: Build and build and build and build.

501
00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:35,801
Speaker 4: And it was only months before I was getting yeah,

502
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,241
Speaker 4: I'm really sick of this. But I tried to persevere

503
00:26:38,321 --> 00:26:40,681
Speaker 4: as long as I could Look, don't keep me wrong.

504
00:26:41,281 --> 00:26:43,241
Speaker 4: I had a lot of enjoyable things in the police

505
00:26:43,281 --> 00:26:46,721
Speaker 4: force happened. I've seen a lot of positive things, and

506
00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:52,241
Speaker 4: I met lifelong friends. Some experiences I still laugh about.

507
00:26:52,761 --> 00:26:55,801
Speaker 4: Some you're shocked about. Some You're grateful you had the

508
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 4: opportunity to see. It was a mixed bag, so to speak.

509
00:26:59,721 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 4: There was a couple of incidents that really spoiled it.

510
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,241
Speaker 4: It wasn't a job so much. It was a management

511
00:27:06,281 --> 00:27:08,561
Speaker 4: that got me in there. It was the way you

512
00:27:08,681 --> 00:27:12,961
Speaker 4: treated I loved a job. I hated the bosses, but

513
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 4: that's another story. But it was months, probably months I

514
00:27:17,721 --> 00:27:21,241
Speaker 4: started because there was no support and you're trying to

515
00:27:21,321 --> 00:27:25,121
Speaker 4: find a way to raise that memory from your head,

516
00:27:26,201 --> 00:27:31,241
Speaker 4: and my way was alcohol, And I realized, you know,

517
00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:34,041
Speaker 4: sometime later I was turned into an alcoholic by trying

518
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,961
Speaker 4: to erase keep used to dream about this stuff. You

519
00:27:38,001 --> 00:27:42,001
Speaker 4: can smell the stuff. And to this day, I still

520
00:27:42,041 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 4: think about it a fair bit.

521
00:27:44,921 --> 00:27:45,721
Speaker 1: What did I miss?

522
00:27:46,360 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 4: Why wasn't it solved? You know, there's still a lot

523
00:27:49,321 --> 00:27:51,241
Speaker 4: of questions un answered, and I still think about it

524
00:27:51,281 --> 00:27:55,801
Speaker 4: to this day. But back then I was just turning

525
00:27:55,840 --> 00:28:00,321
Speaker 4: to alcohol to try and just escape the memories and

526
00:28:01,481 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 4: that was the wrong way to go. Maybe I should

527
00:28:03,441 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 4: have thought treatment, for a psychologist to whatever. But who's

528
00:28:06,681 --> 00:28:10,761
Speaker 4: going to tell you, you know, or help you decide

529
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:15,961
Speaker 4: all that, and unfortunately there was no one.

530
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 2: And let's face it, also, you were encouraged not to

531
00:28:21,041 --> 00:28:24,400
Speaker 2: show weakness, not to show the impacts. Were you encouraged

532
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 2: to button it down and get back on the job.

533
00:28:27,041 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 2: And as you say, there were positive experiences, and in

534
00:28:29,521 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 2: some senses, I mean I regret that I didn't maybe

535
00:28:32,441 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 2: join the police force because as a crime journalist, I've

536
00:28:34,521 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 2: been an observer on some amazing things and told these

537
00:28:36,961 --> 00:28:41,001
Speaker 2: amazing stories. But to be someone who actually solves crimes,

538
00:28:41,041 --> 00:28:44,721
Speaker 2: who brings resolution to families, or might you know, see

539
00:28:44,761 --> 00:28:47,561
Speaker 2: people in their worst moments and do something positive for them,

540
00:28:48,321 --> 00:28:52,841
Speaker 2: it's a tremendous privilege and something that on a positive way,

541
00:28:52,881 --> 00:28:54,641
Speaker 2: will stay with you as well. Do you have other

542
00:28:54,761 --> 00:28:58,561
Speaker 2: memories that, I guess counterbalance that day with Florence Broadhurst?

543
00:28:59,241 --> 00:29:01,601
Speaker 4: Oh, I have a lot of memories. A lot of

544
00:29:01,641 --> 00:29:05,001
Speaker 4: funny things happen in the police forces. Things you see

545
00:29:05,041 --> 00:29:07,121
Speaker 4: every day and you know, how the hell did they

546
00:29:07,281 --> 00:29:11,241
Speaker 4: these people breath? But I was working with one guy

547
00:29:12,001 --> 00:29:14,921
Speaker 4: a chap called Donnie Hennerson. Don and his wife dianairplane

548
00:29:14,961 --> 00:29:18,481
Speaker 4: crash at Mascot many many years ago. Don used to

549
00:29:18,561 --> 00:29:21,201
Speaker 4: work in the drug squad and I'm sure he could

550
00:29:21,201 --> 00:29:23,081
Speaker 4: smell drugs on the house from one hundred yards away.

551
00:29:23,881 --> 00:29:27,561
Speaker 4: I remember one night we're patrolling down through the backstreets

552
00:29:27,601 --> 00:29:31,641
Speaker 4: of Armbondai Junction and I'm driving on and Don says

553
00:29:32,201 --> 00:29:34,561
Speaker 4: sat mrk in front, just follow him for a bit

554
00:29:34,601 --> 00:29:37,601
Speaker 4: and we'll pull him over. Sure as ex, this place's

555
00:29:37,601 --> 00:29:39,961
Speaker 4: got drugs right through his car, like I had, I

556
00:29:40,001 --> 00:29:43,241
Speaker 4: get involved in a big drug bush. I'm sure it

557
00:29:43,321 --> 00:29:46,401
Speaker 4: was a funny guy, Don, but tragically he passed away.

558
00:29:46,961 --> 00:29:49,601
Speaker 4: Another night we were at Paddickton, we had Willara. We

559
00:29:49,721 --> 00:29:54,481
Speaker 4: got called to a high rise one night, Ocean Street

560
00:29:54,521 --> 00:29:57,521
Speaker 4: I think it was, and there was people trapped in

561
00:29:57,601 --> 00:30:00,841
Speaker 4: the lift. So we wandered down and there's a police

562
00:30:00,881 --> 00:30:03,961
Speaker 4: car parked out the front with the doors open. Someone

563
00:30:04,041 --> 00:30:06,681
Speaker 4: must be here already. It was the police trapped in

564
00:30:06,721 --> 00:30:07,041
Speaker 4: the lift.

565
00:30:11,721 --> 00:30:12,521
Speaker 1: I do worrits.

566
00:30:12,561 --> 00:30:17,121
Speaker 4: It were so funny it was. I remember another night, well, yeah,

567
00:30:17,201 --> 00:30:19,321
Speaker 4: one busy night. This is not long before I left.

568
00:30:20,081 --> 00:30:24,481
Speaker 4: We'd been to a it wasn't a bomb threat, and

569
00:30:24,681 --> 00:30:26,081
Speaker 4: I think we ended up with the guy in the

570
00:30:26,121 --> 00:30:28,481
Speaker 4: back of the truck and on the way back to

571
00:30:28,561 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 4: the police station, we're going to call to a robbery.

572
00:30:32,521 --> 00:30:36,321
Speaker 4: It was a Paddington bowling club, so I remember the sarge.

573
00:30:36,401 --> 00:30:38,841
Speaker 4: I was swift. He was a funny guy and I

574
00:30:38,961 --> 00:30:41,401
Speaker 4: used to play for Balmain. We rock up to this

575
00:30:41,841 --> 00:30:45,361
Speaker 4: Paddington bowling club and nine times out of ten you

576
00:30:45,481 --> 00:30:47,601
Speaker 4: rock up to these things, there's no one there. We

577
00:30:47,721 --> 00:30:49,921
Speaker 4: stumbling through the doors and there's a robbery in place.

578
00:30:50,241 --> 00:30:55,801
Speaker 4: God jeeze. I wasn't sure where we were, but I

579
00:30:55,841 --> 00:30:58,401
Speaker 4: remember drawing the pistol and pointed this bloke and saying

580
00:30:58,601 --> 00:31:00,841
Speaker 4: drop it. I thought they were going to go us.

581
00:31:01,081 --> 00:31:07,361
Speaker 4: I was, yeah, that adrenaline pumping occurrence. That one was

582
00:31:08,681 --> 00:31:11,961
Speaker 4: like it turned out all good, but that's what you're

583
00:31:12,001 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 4: there for. How many people do That's it?

584
00:31:15,361 --> 00:31:17,281
Speaker 2: I was going to say, it's all about adrenaline because

585
00:31:17,641 --> 00:31:20,241
Speaker 2: in the positive and the negative, Because when you start

586
00:31:20,361 --> 00:31:24,601
Speaker 2: thinking about that scene at Florence Broadhurst, the adrenaline gets going,

587
00:31:25,161 --> 00:31:28,321
Speaker 2: the heart rate increases, and it's like you're back in

588
00:31:28,441 --> 00:31:32,041
Speaker 2: that scene again and adrenaline can keep us safe. It

589
00:31:32,361 --> 00:31:35,241
Speaker 2: gives you the fight or flight response, as in when

590
00:31:35,281 --> 00:31:39,161
Speaker 2: you're confronting the robbery suspect or it just becomes a deadening,

591
00:31:40,041 --> 00:31:43,081
Speaker 2: toxic influence in your body. It's funny because I give

592
00:31:43,081 --> 00:31:46,641
Speaker 2: you another Victorian police officer, Nael Fraser, recently, and people

593
00:31:46,721 --> 00:31:51,041
Speaker 2: talk about PTSD as a disorder, she said, post traumatic

594
00:31:51,121 --> 00:31:52,121
Speaker 2: stress injury.

595
00:31:52,841 --> 00:31:53,961
Speaker 1: That's how it should be known.

596
00:31:54,841 --> 00:31:57,241
Speaker 2: That's what you suffered on that day and it should

597
00:31:57,241 --> 00:32:00,521
Speaker 2: have been treated as an injury rather than something, Oh,

598
00:32:01,161 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 2: Tony's having a bit of strife and PTSD. I think

599
00:32:05,121 --> 00:32:08,881
Speaker 2: the understanding of it is changing. And I think the

600
00:32:09,001 --> 00:32:12,121
Speaker 2: work that you've done with police cadets of that era

601
00:32:12,241 --> 00:32:15,601
Speaker 2: and they don't have police cadets anymore. I think that's

602
00:32:15,681 --> 00:32:17,921
Speaker 2: what's drawn you to that because you see in those

603
00:32:18,041 --> 00:32:19,641
Speaker 2: guys of a similar age.

604
00:32:19,481 --> 00:32:23,081
Speaker 1: To you, you see a lot of your experience in them.

605
00:32:23,081 --> 00:32:24,761
Speaker 1: Tell us about how you got involved with those guys.

606
00:32:25,561 --> 00:32:28,321
Speaker 4: There was a guy called Charlie di Agostino next cup.

607
00:32:28,401 --> 00:32:31,081
Speaker 4: We're in the same class as a cadet, and he

608
00:32:31,201 --> 00:32:34,161
Speaker 4: and another chap started the New soth Wales Police Cadets

609
00:32:34,681 --> 00:32:39,921
Speaker 4: social group on Facebook. I think through networks we all

610
00:32:40,001 --> 00:32:42,881
Speaker 4: became aware of it and joined it years ago when

611
00:32:42,921 --> 00:32:45,681
Speaker 4: the group started up. You know, talking to Charlie and

612
00:32:46,481 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 4: there's a whole bunch of people involved in this. My

613
00:32:49,441 --> 00:32:52,601
Speaker 4: role is hosting coffee crunches every month from the Gold

614
00:32:52,641 --> 00:32:56,841
Speaker 4: Coast tweet Ed's area for ex cops. It's encouraging people.

615
00:32:57,041 --> 00:32:59,921
Speaker 4: They come together every month, they talk about their job

616
00:33:00,321 --> 00:33:04,601
Speaker 4: to good all the bad discussions everything and every month

617
00:33:04,761 --> 00:33:08,721
Speaker 4: Cope crunch is different, different people turning up. We have

618
00:33:08,801 --> 00:33:12,841
Speaker 4: the regulars turn up, but it's just people supporting other people.

619
00:33:13,321 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 4: But the US files Police social group they're Reunited, have

620
00:33:17,561 --> 00:33:20,801
Speaker 4: six hundred people together now so far ex cadets.

621
00:33:21,481 --> 00:33:23,721
Speaker 1: But what they do is they.

622
00:33:23,921 --> 00:33:28,441
Speaker 4: Help people with PTSD. They assisting people getting treatment through

623
00:33:28,481 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 4: facilities that are known to them. They raise funds for

624
00:33:33,361 --> 00:33:36,121
Speaker 4: people to get help. Last year I think he said

625
00:33:36,281 --> 00:33:39,681
Speaker 4: there was forty eight different events hosted for ex cadets

626
00:33:39,721 --> 00:33:43,401
Speaker 4: and cops and that's fantastic. That's right up the East

627
00:33:43,441 --> 00:33:46,601
Speaker 4: Case of Australia. But it's bringing next cops together so

628
00:33:46,641 --> 00:33:49,921
Speaker 4: they could talk about their problems, medical problems, getting a

629
00:33:50,001 --> 00:33:54,761
Speaker 4: help for PTSD, helping with There's some cases that have

630
00:33:54,841 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 4: been very successful in court claiming pensions from the new

631
00:33:58,721 --> 00:34:01,641
Speaker 4: files police force. I won't go two death in those,

632
00:34:01,721 --> 00:34:05,241
Speaker 4: but some of those cases have been very successful, people

633
00:34:05,241 --> 00:34:08,801
Speaker 4: getting pensions, And like, I might talk about the things

634
00:34:08,801 --> 00:34:11,801
Speaker 4: that I went through, but I've heard stories from other

635
00:34:11,881 --> 00:34:15,241
Speaker 4: people who are in a group, non exponets, just cops

636
00:34:15,801 --> 00:34:18,841
Speaker 4: and the things that they've suffered. Yeah, I think I

637
00:34:18,921 --> 00:34:21,801
Speaker 4: think to myself, my life is easy. You know, what

638
00:34:22,001 --> 00:34:26,241
Speaker 4: I went through may affect me, but I think I

639
00:34:26,361 --> 00:34:28,961
Speaker 4: had an easy run. I think I'm lucky.

640
00:34:30,241 --> 00:34:34,121
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, everyone carries their own burden, Tony,

641
00:34:34,401 --> 00:34:37,161
Speaker 2: and I think this attitude of comparing and saying, well,

642
00:34:37,921 --> 00:34:41,081
Speaker 2: what I went through was less relevant or less significant

643
00:34:41,081 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 2: than others.

644
00:34:41,761 --> 00:34:43,521
Speaker 1: I don't think it helps your recovery. I think you've

645
00:34:43,561 --> 00:34:47,561
Speaker 1: got to judge on your circumstance. And yeah, I agree

646
00:34:47,601 --> 00:34:48,681
Speaker 1: to deal with the lost spirits.

647
00:34:49,801 --> 00:34:52,121
Speaker 4: Yeah, but you know, I see other people the way

648
00:34:52,161 --> 00:34:56,761
Speaker 4: they've hurt, the way they're affected by Look, everyone when

649
00:34:56,801 --> 00:34:59,601
Speaker 4: you talk to has positives about the police force. They

650
00:34:59,721 --> 00:35:03,601
Speaker 4: have their positives. It's the negative things about when you're

651
00:35:03,681 --> 00:35:07,721
Speaker 4: injured or you need to go off mental illness. They're

652
00:35:07,721 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 4: treated badly by the police force, every one of them.

653
00:35:10,441 --> 00:35:12,601
Speaker 4: I've had to fight for pension increases, will fight for

654
00:35:12,721 --> 00:35:16,401
Speaker 4: pensions working for the government different areas in different times.

655
00:35:17,441 --> 00:35:20,601
Speaker 4: They're not there to help you, they're there for themselves,

656
00:35:21,401 --> 00:35:23,241
Speaker 4: and you've got to fight for everything you can get.

657
00:35:24,641 --> 00:35:25,961
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's tremendous.

658
00:35:26,001 --> 00:35:30,481
Speaker 2: You're still serving the community by serving the people that

659
00:35:30,601 --> 00:35:32,921
Speaker 2: serve the community, and I think that's tremendous. Do you

660
00:35:33,001 --> 00:35:34,561
Speaker 2: think this is a kind of happy ending for you

661
00:35:34,641 --> 00:35:40,041
Speaker 2: In a sense, it's not quite the end outcome, look,

662
00:35:40,201 --> 00:35:43,401
Speaker 2: but a happy outcome to your story. What you're doing now.

663
00:35:44,641 --> 00:35:47,401
Speaker 4: Look like an enjoyment out of helping other people, regardless

664
00:35:47,441 --> 00:35:50,281
Speaker 4: of their ex Police are not family and friends will

665
00:35:50,441 --> 00:35:53,001
Speaker 4: verify that. But if I can help people in any way,

666
00:35:53,081 --> 00:35:55,441
Speaker 4: I'm happy to put my hand up. But you know

667
00:35:55,521 --> 00:35:58,441
Speaker 4: you're going to remember in the Cadets Association you so

668
00:35:58,601 --> 00:36:01,001
Speaker 4: well as police can. Edit says, there are a lot

669
00:36:01,041 --> 00:36:05,241
Speaker 4: of people doing more than I am. But it's it's

670
00:36:05,321 --> 00:36:08,121
Speaker 4: great to be a part of that association. Honestly, you

671
00:36:08,241 --> 00:36:11,041
Speaker 4: see how those people help in a particular plague. He

672
00:36:11,201 --> 00:36:14,161
Speaker 4: puts so many hours a week into helping people, and

673
00:36:14,281 --> 00:36:16,761
Speaker 4: it's just I'm proud to be a part of them.

674
00:36:17,001 --> 00:36:20,001
Speaker 4: And did a little bit idea. It's fantastic.

675
00:36:20,601 --> 00:36:24,721
Speaker 2: And how have you gone about resolving your own injury

676
00:36:25,561 --> 00:36:26,241
Speaker 2: from that day?

677
00:36:26,881 --> 00:36:28,041
Speaker 1: Have you had some treatment?

678
00:36:28,201 --> 00:36:28,361
Speaker 2: Now?

679
00:36:28,441 --> 00:36:30,681
Speaker 1: I mean I know you kept it button down for

680
00:36:30,801 --> 00:36:33,521
Speaker 1: many many years, didn't seek any treatment. Did you end

681
00:36:33,601 --> 00:36:34,801
Speaker 1: up speaking to some people?

682
00:36:35,921 --> 00:36:40,081
Speaker 4: No, never spoke to anyone about it. It's just dealt

683
00:36:40,121 --> 00:36:43,441
Speaker 4: with it by myself. Look, the biggest relief, and I

684
00:36:43,521 --> 00:36:46,841
Speaker 4: think that when we spoke back in twenty eighteen for

685
00:36:47,001 --> 00:36:49,641
Speaker 4: the first time about this matter, I think that was

686
00:36:49,681 --> 00:36:53,281
Speaker 4: the biggest help I ever had. Just getting it off

687
00:36:53,321 --> 00:36:56,041
Speaker 4: my chest and telling my story, that was the biggest

688
00:36:56,201 --> 00:36:59,961
Speaker 4: thing it ever helped me. So which I thank you

689
00:37:00,121 --> 00:37:03,521
Speaker 4: for that, because honestly, to tell your own stories and

690
00:37:03,801 --> 00:37:06,841
Speaker 4: get it out there and out there in the open forum,

691
00:37:06,921 --> 00:37:08,441
Speaker 4: so it was. It was fantastic.

692
00:37:08,521 --> 00:37:13,481
Speaker 2: Oh's the pleasure because as I say, that memory and

693
00:37:13,641 --> 00:37:16,321
Speaker 2: your role in that day had been erased, it must

694
00:37:16,361 --> 00:37:19,041
Speaker 2: have been absolutely maddening. And one thing I should ask

695
00:37:19,121 --> 00:37:22,001
Speaker 2: you is subsequent telling that story for the first time,

696
00:37:22,481 --> 00:37:24,881
Speaker 2: have police ever approached you. I know there's been a

697
00:37:24,921 --> 00:37:27,681
Speaker 2: review since that show that's Australian Crime Stories and Telling.

698
00:37:27,681 --> 00:37:29,121
Speaker 2: I think it still shows from time to time on

699
00:37:29,241 --> 00:37:31,681
Speaker 2: Telling nine. As anybody from New South Wales's police or

700
00:37:31,721 --> 00:37:33,641
Speaker 2: the coroner approached you about giving your evidence.

701
00:37:35,121 --> 00:37:37,121
Speaker 4: No, one never been approached by the police force.

702
00:37:37,401 --> 00:37:37,561
Speaker 2: You know.

703
00:37:38,641 --> 00:37:41,361
Speaker 4: When Catherine Thompson and I started on this journey some

704
00:37:41,521 --> 00:37:47,161
Speaker 4: years ago, I actually rang Unsolved Homicide to ask them

705
00:37:47,201 --> 00:37:52,081
Speaker 4: about reopening the case. And that's as far as it went. Yeah,

706
00:37:52,401 --> 00:37:53,361
Speaker 4: never heard from anyone.

707
00:37:54,841 --> 00:37:58,241
Speaker 2: Astounding, astounding. I see this sometimes with the cold cases.

708
00:37:58,321 --> 00:38:00,121
Speaker 2: They you know, they get there and listen to the

709
00:38:00,161 --> 00:38:03,201
Speaker 2: other thing was the file was lost? I mean well,

710
00:38:03,561 --> 00:38:07,521
Speaker 2: and that certain didn't help the outcome. Yeah, they went

711
00:38:07,561 --> 00:38:10,801
Speaker 2: missing from Paddicton Police station. I believe now how I

712
00:38:10,881 --> 00:38:11,521
Speaker 2: went missing on it.

713
00:38:11,761 --> 00:38:15,121
Speaker 4: Peter O'Toole came across that years later when he went

714
00:38:15,201 --> 00:38:16,801
Speaker 4: out there to investigate the case.

715
00:38:19,241 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 1: Tool.

716
00:38:20,081 --> 00:38:22,201
Speaker 4: I remember when Catherine Thompson and I are working on it.

717
00:38:22,561 --> 00:38:25,241
Speaker 4: I approached the New South Wales Police Force to track

718
00:38:25,321 --> 00:38:30,921
Speaker 4: down the coroners reports, every bit of evidence, and I

719
00:38:31,081 --> 00:38:35,681
Speaker 4: was told it went to some archives out in Western Sydney.

720
00:38:36,401 --> 00:38:40,281
Speaker 4: Contacted the archives. Nothing could not find a thing. After

721
00:38:40,601 --> 00:38:42,681
Speaker 4: I went through every source in the police force to

722
00:38:42,721 --> 00:38:46,481
Speaker 4: try and track down some evidence or something relating to

723
00:38:46,561 --> 00:38:49,721
Speaker 4: that murder, there was nothing on record. Nothing was ever found.

724
00:38:50,561 --> 00:38:52,641
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the reality of some of these old cases.

725
00:38:52,681 --> 00:38:55,241
Speaker 2: By the way, when all these detectives converge on a

726
00:38:55,321 --> 00:38:59,001
Speaker 2: suburban station in a task force situation to investigate a murder,

727
00:38:59,241 --> 00:39:02,761
Speaker 2: if it doesn't get resolved, sometimes the exhibits stayed in

728
00:39:02,841 --> 00:39:06,281
Speaker 2: the station until some and goes what the fuck's this

729
00:39:06,401 --> 00:39:08,401
Speaker 2: and throws it all out or sends it somewhere else,

730
00:39:08,481 --> 00:39:10,681
Speaker 2: And it may well be in the system, but it's

731
00:39:10,841 --> 00:39:13,521
Speaker 2: difficult to find. It's like those archaeologists who go to

732
00:39:13,601 --> 00:39:17,161
Speaker 2: the museums and actually excavate the files of these old

733
00:39:17,241 --> 00:39:19,681
Speaker 2: museums and the universities and they find remarkable things.

734
00:39:19,721 --> 00:39:22,001
Speaker 1: And I think this is the same with police forces.

735
00:39:22,081 --> 00:39:25,721
Speaker 2: So you would hope, Tony, that part of your final

736
00:39:25,841 --> 00:39:28,881
Speaker 2: recovery is someone to come and talk to you about this,

737
00:39:29,081 --> 00:39:31,841
Speaker 2: take your evidence, and actually weigh it up for its

738
00:39:32,161 --> 00:39:33,881
Speaker 2: actual forensic value.

739
00:39:34,961 --> 00:39:36,681
Speaker 4: Well, you'd think they would do that if they're going

740
00:39:36,721 --> 00:39:38,561
Speaker 4: to open a cold case, which I believe they did,

741
00:39:39,001 --> 00:39:41,081
Speaker 4: and I'm not sure if it was still active or not,

742
00:39:41,601 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 4: but I did believe they did open another cold case

743
00:39:44,561 --> 00:39:48,201
Speaker 4: or an investigation, which we've never heard nothing about. The

744
00:39:48,321 --> 00:39:50,801
Speaker 4: other thing, too, is there must be somewhere of it

745
00:39:50,921 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 4: in somewhere there's got to be you just don't throw

746
00:39:54,081 --> 00:39:58,841
Speaker 4: everything out. I'm amazed. I'm just all surprised and shocked. Yeah,

747
00:39:58,961 --> 00:40:00,281
Speaker 4: that we couldn't find any evidence.

748
00:40:00,961 --> 00:40:04,321
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh well, Tony hopefully out of this discussion and

749
00:40:04,601 --> 00:40:06,001
Speaker 2: maybe we have to keep knocking on the door a

750
00:40:06,041 --> 00:40:08,961
Speaker 2: few more times. But one of these discussions may prompt

751
00:40:09,041 --> 00:40:12,801
Speaker 2: an enterprising young detective who's got the file to talk

752
00:40:12,881 --> 00:40:16,201
Speaker 2: to you, and I'll certainly direct them to you. But

753
00:40:16,241 --> 00:40:19,721
Speaker 2: I really want to thank you for your service, your

754
00:40:19,761 --> 00:40:23,441
Speaker 2: friendship actually as well, and your work on behalf of

755
00:40:23,601 --> 00:40:25,081
Speaker 2: other people such as yourself.

756
00:40:26,601 --> 00:40:28,361
Speaker 4: It's a pleasure. Thanks Adam.

757
00:40:35,761 --> 00:40:39,401
Speaker 2: That's Tony Russell, former New South Wales police constable who

758
00:40:39,601 --> 00:40:42,681
Speaker 2: was on the scene the day that Florence Broadhurst was found.

759
00:40:42,761 --> 00:40:46,441
Speaker 2: And as you've heard, is evidence has never made it

760
00:40:46,761 --> 00:40:51,641
Speaker 2: into the file. How significant was that? Did it change

761
00:40:52,121 --> 00:40:55,321
Speaker 2: the course of the investigation? I think it did, But

762
00:40:55,401 --> 00:40:59,081
Speaker 2: there's still time to bring closure to this one. You

763
00:40:59,121 --> 00:41:01,921
Speaker 2: wonder who else is out there with information about Florence

764
00:41:02,241 --> 00:41:06,481
Speaker 2: and other possible suspects. Does it just eventually diminished to

765
00:41:06,561 --> 00:41:10,761
Speaker 2: nothing this investigation when everyone passes away. There's still a

766
00:41:10,881 --> 00:41:13,721
Speaker 2: chance now, So if you have information about this case.

767
00:41:14,481 --> 00:41:17,641
Speaker 2: Or you might be a police officer or other essential

768
00:41:17,721 --> 00:41:21,321
Speaker 2: service worker who has had issues in the past with PTSD,

769
00:41:21,561 --> 00:41:24,881
Speaker 2: or maybe hasn't recognized it yet. Maybe use this conversation

770
00:41:24,961 --> 00:41:28,801
Speaker 2: as a spur to talk to somebody. Get involved in

771
00:41:29,241 --> 00:41:31,641
Speaker 2: the groups that Tony's mentioned, whether it's police cadets or

772
00:41:31,681 --> 00:41:35,281
Speaker 2: other Facebook groups and things. Talk to people it's not

773
00:41:35,361 --> 00:41:37,281
Speaker 2: too late, or even seek some assistance. And I'm a

774
00:41:37,281 --> 00:41:39,561
Speaker 2: bit shocked that Tony hasn't, but I'll keep bothering him

775
00:41:39,561 --> 00:41:42,201
Speaker 2: about that. But anyway, it's been a pleasure to talk

776
00:41:42,241 --> 00:41:44,881
Speaker 2: to Tony today. And if you've got information about a crime,

777
00:41:44,921 --> 00:41:47,201
Speaker 2: you can always call Crime Stoppers one hundred, triple three,

778
00:41:47,481 --> 00:41:50,561
Speaker 2: triple zero. If you don't trust the compas some people don't,

779
00:41:50,881 --> 00:41:52,881
Speaker 2: if you can send me an email Adam Shanner, writer

780
00:41:53,001 --> 00:41:55,041
Speaker 2: at gmail dot com and I'll do my best to

781
00:41:55,921 --> 00:41:58,281
Speaker 2: see that the information gets into the right hands.

782
00:41:58,441 --> 00:42:00,041
Speaker 1: Might end up on the podcast as well, so be

783
00:42:00,121 --> 00:42:02,361
Speaker 1: prepared for that. Thank you for listening. This has been

784
00:42:02,601 --> 00:42:04,081
Speaker 1: real crime with Adam shanned