WEBVTT - The Late Debate | 12 June 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:04.040 General, Welcome to the late base. 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:08.920 Good evening and welcome to the program. I'm Kayla Bond 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:11.600 with Frei Leitch and Caroline Marcus. Of course you've just 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:14.520 heard the news there from Paul there were no survivors 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:17.320 on that Air India flight. Will cross shortly to London 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:21.000 with Sophie Illsworth where the plane was headed. In the papers, 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:24.800 a children's hospital backing a doctor who was excoriated by 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:28.440 the family Court over transgender medicine, and later in the 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:31.360 show Chris Min's the New South Wales Premier responds to 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:34.680 news that magic mushrooms have been growing the New South 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:38.440 Wales Parliament. Now, of course, as I just mentioned, Paul 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:43.280 just showed you the grab on air of government spokesman 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:45.959 from India saying that there were no survivors on this 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:50.360 Air India flight aa AI. I should say one seven 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:53.400 one the basic details, of course, there are one hundred 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:57.480 and sixty nine Indian nationals on the flight, fifty three Britain, 0:00:57.640 --> 0:01:02.480 seven Portuguese nationals and one Canadian. Earlier in the day, 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:05.160 the Health Minister in India had said that there were 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:08.800 many killed. Of course, repeating that news that we now 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:12.520 hear there are no survivors on board the flight. The 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:17.479 plane came down in a civilian era era area sorry, 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:21.959 just minutes after takeoff. At least thirty bodies have been 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:24.160 recovered from a building into which the. 0:01:24.040 --> 0:01:26.520 Plane is said to have crashed. 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:31.679 That building, according to authorities, was holding doctors. According to 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:36.440 the flight radar data, the plane was seen on the 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:41.759 ground at three thirty one thirty sorry local time. Four 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:44.959 minutes later it was preparing to take off, and then 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:47.520 at one thirty eight it started to take off. It 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:50.240 made it to six hundred and twenty five feet. That 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:53.440 was when they lost signal from the plane. Shortly after 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:56.800 they issued a may day, and about five minutes later 0:01:57.360 --> 0:02:00.480 the plane came down. Now this footage year will be 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:03.920 distressing to some viewers, but this is the moment that 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:06.680 you can, of course see the plane appears to be 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:11.400 losing power and then comes down towards the ground and 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:16.079 crashes and you can see the explosion. There will cross 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:21.360 now to Sophie Ellsworth, europe correspondent in London where this 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:25.800 flight was headed towards Gatwick Airport. Sophie, thank you for 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:29.480 joining us. What do we know, if anything about the 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:31.440 people who were on board? Of course, we know there 0:02:31.440 --> 0:02:34.640 were no survivors, but have there been any further details. 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:39.960 But Caleber, as you can appreciate, this story is developing 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:44.239 very quickly, so the updates are rolling in. But at 0:02:44.240 --> 0:02:46.679 the moment, we have just heard that news that you've 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:52.680 reported about no survivors. Just listening to the British reports here, 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:56.880 there's very much significant concern because there were fifty three 0:02:56.919 --> 0:03:00.960 British nationals on that flight. The Indian Commission here is 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:05.280 just announced they'll fast track any visas to allow next 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:08.800 of kin and journalists to quickly get on board flights 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:11.960 and make their way to India. But Caleb, this is 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:15.160 obviously a tragedy that has rocked the world, but very 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:19.359 much Britain, as you would expect given that there were 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:23.560 many British passengers on board. The flight was due to 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:29.160 arrive here London Gatwick this evening, and people are just 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:31.519 in shock of what we have seen and what we're 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:35.120 witnessing what we saw and asked screens there, Caleb, and 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:38.480 they're also trying to work out very quickly, you know, 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:40.920 what is the status with the passengers, because there are 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:44.800 conflicting reports at this point. Now I have asked the 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:48.840 Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade in Australia if there 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:53.080 are any Australians on board or if they know of 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:55.920 any that were on board, and at this stage they 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:58.760 haven't been able to say if there is, but they 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:01.960 are very much looking into that. So, Caleb, a shocking 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:05.880 situation that has rocked the whole world and very much 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:06.720 here in the UK. 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:10.240 Are we expecting to hear from Suki Stama, the British 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:11.480 Prime Minister anytime soon? 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:17.040 So sa Kirs Starmer and also the Foreign Secretary David 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:21.880 Lammy have sent their condolences following this crash. They've put 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:26.080 posts on social media site x So yes we have 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:29.880 heard from them, Caleb, but we're just waiting for more 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:33.560 information to filter through. But just listening to some of 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:36.560 the commentators here in the UK, Caleb, they've described it 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:41.480 as an incredibly complex crash site because of where it landed. 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:44.599 In the scenes that you can see, it's gone into 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:49.279 a building, there's a lot of vegetation around, so it's 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:53.080 a very complicated site to try and retrieve bodies. There's 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:58.160 emergency services flooding in to get people out. So yes, 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:01.120 this is a developing story but one that we are 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:03.479 now concerned there may be no survivors. 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:05.880 Well, yeah, as I said before, Sophie, of course that 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:08.560 the Indian authorities are saying there are no survivors from 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:11.320 the flight. But there's also the matter of the building 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:15.240 that the plane we believe has crashed into, which local 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:18.680 authorities are saying was a building that was accommodating doctors. 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:22.560 Now the authorities have said that they've recovered at least 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:25.640 thirty bodies from that building and there are more people 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:29.159 trapped inside, so one imagines there will be more deaths 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:31.400 to be announced there as well, which is of course sad, 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:34.880 but many people will be wondering how something like this 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:38.680 could happen. And this plane was a Boeing seven eight 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:41.800 seven Dreamliner. Now, from my understanding, this is the first 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:45.760 time there's ever been a crash involving a seven eight seven, 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:49.080 But Boeing, as we know, has had a choppy record 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:52.080 of late. What has Boeing said so far about this. 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:56.480 So there hasn't been much come out of Boeing at 0:05:56.480 --> 0:06:01.160 this point. We have obviously had the airline common and 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:05.120 we've also obviously had government officials, but the commentators here 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:08.680 in the UK, the transport expert Berts are saying that 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:15.280 it is known as a very reliable aircraft and these occasions, sadly, 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:21.200 where there are fatalities and deaths involving aircraft are thankfully 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:23.360 incredibly rare, Caleb. 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:25.680 But the flow on effect. 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:28.120 From this not only will be the devastation of those 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:32.800 impacted in this tragedy today, but also it will make 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:36.920 many people nervous, Caleb about flying. And then that's when 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:40.159 we'll start to learn more of what actually went wrong. 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:45.800 When the pilots are leading this aircraft made the may 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:50.480 Day calls shortly after they took off, what actually went 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:55.120 wrong here and is there any fault on the aircraft 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:58.880 and the airline itself. So there's a lot of things 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:02.360 to weigh up here, and we have to be careful speculating, 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:06.920 but incredibly concerning. We're all involved, and very concerning for 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:10.440 people now who may be nervous flying on these aircrafts 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:13.920 until we get a good understanding of what did happen. 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:16.800 Indeed, so feels worth thank you so much for your time, 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:19.640 and of course stay tuned too SCA News where we 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:22.040 will inform you of any further updates on this this 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:24.560 evening and after the late debate tonight there will be 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:28.000 extended coverage. Let's get into some of the other news 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:30.800 of the day. Try this one on for size. Every 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:33.160 time I see one of these stories, I wonder why 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:36.760 I can't get one of these government contracts. Mean, it's 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:39.000 just another day ending, and why it would seem with 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:42.560 a government wasting money. This time it is the federal 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:45.200 government where they have spent one hundred and eighty thousand dollars, 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:48.240 or to be specific, one hundred and eighty thousand, six 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:52.320 hundred and twenty eight dollars and eighty cents revamping the 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:58.080 Net Zero Economy Agency into the Net Zero Economy Authority 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:01.640 because of course it's so important to change that one word, 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:05.560 this one hundred and eighty grand. They blew on three things. 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:08.920 A few social media pages when went up on LinkedIn, 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:12.280 went up on Facebook, and a logo now this is 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:16.120 the old logo here that they so desperately had to replace. 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:17.760 I mean, you could have mocked that one up. I 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:18.720 suppose in. 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:22.280 Microsoft word this is the new logo that they spent one. 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:25.400 Hundred and thousand dollars off. 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:28.480 I mean I could have probably done that in Microsoft 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:33.400 paint for one hundred and eighty dollars Freyer, Seriously, why 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:34.600 do we do this stuff? 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:37.319 Oh honestly, I mean, there seems to be a consistent 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:41.600 culture within certain elements of the bureaucracy that just view 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:45.760 the taxpayer. As one person described it as an endless ATM. 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:47.640 You say you might have been able to do it 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:51.199 on Microsoft Word before the show. I had a little 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:55.400 go at doing it on chat GPT in thirty seconds. 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:58.160 This is what I managed to create. 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:03.079 I reckon that's better then the low spend one hundred 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:06.240 and eighty thousand dollars creating. 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:07.640 I literally just said, at. 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:10.800 Least you can see what it's about. There's authority from 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:13.000 your logo. You have no idea from a few squares. 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:15.959 You've got your windmills, your solar panels. It's perfect. 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:18.320 I don't care what logo you have on this thing, 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:21.520 on this agency, this authority, whatever it is. Calem you 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:25.760 cannot polish a turn Natzio is a terrible idea in 0:09:25.800 --> 0:09:28.320 any agency or authority that's set up to try and 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:31.800 sell it to people and help convince people to sign 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:33.839 up to this or whatever they're supposed to do. It's 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:36.520 still not entirely clear. Despite the one hundred and eighty 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:39.319 ground they've spent on this thing. It's just I mean, 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:44.240 obviously we've said it before many times. It's a concept 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:46.760 that we're not going to reach by the time we've 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:50.720 set the target to But regardless of that, it is 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:54.120 a waste of time and money and effort, and it's 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:56.120 people who are going to be paying the high bills 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:59.280 when we put out you know, on a global scale, 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:03.880 relatively very little emissions and countries like China and India 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:05.839 the biggest producers don't have to do anything. 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:09.200 But how far behind the eight ball can the public 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:11.760 service be? Like if you can mock something like that 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:15.400 up in chet GPT in about two seconds flat, why 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:18.360 do they still spend one hundred and eighty grand on 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:20.880 some morbien sea there They were called folk the mob 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:25.360 that got this contract. There are quote unquote strategic design consultancy. 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:26.400 I mean, why are we. 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:30.280 Not all just setting up strategic design consultancies and getting 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:31.920 government contracts and then putting it. 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:33.840 Through jet GPT and turning it around. 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:36.120 Into second it's a great business model. You heard it 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:39.760 here first, guys. And that's the funniest part. Part of 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:44.040 the role of the net zero Authority is to guarantee 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:47.480 jobs and provide a job transition for people who are 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:52.360 being displaced by net zero transition of like, the only 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:56.880 jobs they're guaranteeing is for sou lat drinking Inner West 0:10:56.960 --> 0:11:01.360 lefties who work at the Folks Strategic consult It's such 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:02.280 a waste of money. 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:05.000 And it is in the Inner West from Lena in Fidney, 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:07.880 which has that reputation as you would both well know 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:13.520 having been there, very much to go against the grade 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:14.839 in the Inn West. 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:16.840 When I get around with my mega hand. 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:20.440 I'm sure they love you for that. I mean, that 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:24.000 is one very very expensive word change from you know, 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:26.400 from agency to authority. That has got to be the 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:27.840 most expensive word out there. 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:32.240 Indeed, Now, in case you've been calling you, yes, yes. 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:35.120 This is a fascinating case. It's a landmark trial that's 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:38.319 taking place this week in Sydney in the Federal Court. 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:43.319 Wraps up tomorrow and it involves this radical Islamic preacher 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:49.840 with some haddad who is accused of anti Semitism, basically insulting, offending, 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:54.080 humiliating Jews in a series of sermons he delivered a 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:57.920 few weeks after the October seven terror attacks in Israel, 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:01.720 in which he said very slave Jews and the descendants 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:06.319 of pigs and monkeys. There's they're vile, treacherous people. And 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:07.280 then he said this. 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:11.880 Towards in the times when the Muslims will be fighting 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:17.120 the Jews, the trees will speak, the soul will speak, 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:21.240 and they'll say, believe there is a Yohodi behind me. 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:22.040 Come. 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:26.160 So what's interesting about this case is it fell on 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:29.640 a Jewish group, the Executive Council of Australian Jury, the 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:33.760 peak Jewish group in fact in Australia to pursue mister 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:38.199 Haddad Civilly because New South Wales police and the Federal 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:43.240 Police investigated him over these speeches and decided they couldn't 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:47.240 do anything that wasn't worth pressing charges. It didn't meet 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:52.440 whatever threshold there was for incitement to violence. So he's 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:56.040 landed in the Federal court being pursued in the civil matter. 0:12:57.120 --> 0:13:01.280 Now he today they're closing up case. He's tried to 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:03.800 argue a number of defenses for this. First of all, 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:06.640 that it's based largely on a religious foundation. He's just 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:10.360 quoting scripture, just quoting the Koran or Islamic text. Then 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:13.280 he said he didn't mean all Jews when he said 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:17.280 things like yehood and the Jews, he meant just the 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:20.040 religious ones or just the ones in the Israeli government. 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:24.400 And finally he tried to argue that this was really 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:29.520 more a private speech he gave to his religious center, 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:32.520 even though he knew that it would be uploaded onto 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:34.880 YouTube and Facebook and rumble and so on. 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:37.120 Next job, your private business. 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:41.520 But he's been called interestingly by the prosecute, by the 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:47.000 barrister for the Jewish group, want to be influencer, want 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:50.640 to be online celebrity. And I think, look, I think 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:54.000 there's some truth in that he filmed a live stream 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:56.240 heading into court that I just want to show people 0:13:56.280 --> 0:13:59.720 at home talking about his case to his followers on 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:02.199 his Instagram page, and look at what he said. 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:06.240 This is actually a really big case that's going on 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:14.400 here in Australia anyway, So come with, Well, know, we 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:17.120 would perfectly have said in the past publicly that we 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:18.480 disbelieve in these courts. 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:24.600 I mean he said there that he doesn't believe and 0:14:24.840 --> 0:14:27.840 we don't believe. I think he's referring to his own 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:31.760 followers here. We do not believe in the courts. So 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:35.000 why is he even defending this matter? Is a question here. 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:37.960 I mean, he didn't stand all bow for the judge 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:41.320 in any of that. I was there for two full days. 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:43.920 The first two full days he did not follow the 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:48.120 customs of the court everyone else did. I mean, obviously 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:51.080 that is a sign of extreme disrespect. I'm not sure 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:54.840 the judge didn't comment on it, but it raises all 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:56.560 sorts of questions this case. 0:14:56.840 --> 0:15:00.000 Well, the fact that we're here in the first place, 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:02.760 I think is a large part of the problem, right 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.680 because this case is being run under section eighteen C 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:08.480 of the Racial Discrimination Act. And I've said for a 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:10.400 long time that I don't think eighteen C of the 0:15:10.440 --> 0:15:13.640 Racial Discrimination Act should exist. It is a part of 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:16.920 the Racial Discrimination Act that says it's illegal to offend 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:21.040 or insult someone on the basis of their race, ethnicity, nationality, 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:22.400 skin color, etc. 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:23.600 I don't believe that. 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:28.240 No skin color and nationality is not part of that race. 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:31.480 It does not exist to protect the law should not 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:35.640 exist to protect people from offense or insult. But you 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:39.920 found yourself in a position where the criminal law that 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:42.440 I think ought to be applied in this case. I mean, 0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:46.720 if you're saying that a tree is going to instruct 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:49.840 you to kill someone I would argue that that is 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:52.480 a case that could potentially or should be run on 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:56.800 the basis of incitement to violence. Now the police investigated 0:15:56.840 --> 0:15:58.760 it and said that they weren't going to do that. 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:01.120 I've said many times that there should be a test 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:03.480 case round to run it up a flagpole. 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:04.600 If it doesn't get up in. 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:07.400 Court, then you'll have a mandate to change these laws. 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:10.400 So I can understand why the Executive Council of Australian 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:13.120 Jury has done this, because they've taken the law that 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:16.440 is available to them. But is it not true or 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:19.160 at least I think anyway that this should be a 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:22.360 criminal matter rather than a civil way. 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:25.400 Well, there has been a consistent theme throughout the last 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:29.600 eighteen months when we have seen a really unprecedented explosion 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:35.000 in anti semitism in Australia, where police have seemingly investigated things, 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:40.200 but very few people have actually been prosecuted. Where it's 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:43.640 still really waiting for any meaningful prosecution. From the Opera 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:48.080 House protests, there are so many instances where there's simply 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:51.440 been very little response from the police. So I don't 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:54.720 blame the Executive Council of Australian Jury for taking this 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:57.080 into their own hands. It seems at this point this 0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:59.880 civil law is the only defense they really have to 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:03.160 protect themselves with. But you're right, there have been consistent 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:08.080 concerns raised around is insult and defense really a high 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:11.800 enough threshold to actually limit people's speech. I think it 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:14.680 was the Turnbull government that tried to raise the threshold 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:17.719 to harassment, but that didn't pass the Senate. 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:18.840 And the other. 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:22.840 Interesting aspect that the preacher raised in his defense was 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:25.960 that he was just quoting the Quran. And it does 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:29.400 raise this interesting question of if elements of a religious 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:35.719 text do offend insult a specific racial group, and Jews 0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:38.600 are treated as a racial group under Australian law as 0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:42.199 well as a religious group, will that then be outlawed 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:45.960 bi section eighteen C And does that then conflict with 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:49.879 our right to religious freedom? And so there is this 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:52.560 interesting tension there, and I looked into a little bit 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:56.120 and it looks like because Australia doesn't have a Bill 0:17:56.160 --> 0:18:00.280 of Rights like the US, the courts would likely uphold 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:05.160 Section eighteen C even if it does limit your religious freedom, 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:10.639 because the law is not specifically designed to limit religious freedom. 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:14.840 So if limits on religious expression is an indirect consequence 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:18.119 of the law, then the law is still constitutionally valid. 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:19.919 So I don't think he has a leg to stand 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:23.160 on in that sense. But it does raise, I guess, 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:27.040 more broadly, this concern around what are the limits on 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:28.080 our freedom of speech? 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:30.399 Well, that is one of the things a lot of 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:33.159 people raise concerns over eighteen C. But I think in 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:35.440 this case, I mean, it wasn't just the Qur'an he said, 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:39.400 he was quoting from Islamic scholars, Like, how far can 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:42.080 you take that? You know, just because someone who was 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:45.360 religious said something at some point doesn't mean you can 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:49.280 get away with whipping up hatred for another group, especially 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:52.760 in like he's using examples in history from the seventh 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:57.119 century of battles to whip up hatred for all Jews today. 0:18:57.200 --> 0:18:58.760 That's the argument against him. 0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:02.479 But the law's responsibility to prevent hatred. I think it's 0:19:02.520 --> 0:19:05.840 the law's responsibility to prevent someone being physically and I don't. 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:07.800 Think that can prevent it. It's happened at this point, 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:08.520 but it's. 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:09.800 Relationship to punish it. 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:12.600 I mean, is it the law's responsibility to say you 0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:13.520 can't be racist? 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:16.040 Well, I think it's a really interesting question. But I 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:18.919 think I agree more with your point than in the 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:23.120 absence of effective laws to crack down on incitement to violence, 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:26.840 where the threshold is way too high to actually prosecute 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:32.919 accused hate preachers, then we need something, something to protect 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:37.679 a community which has experienced skyrocketing levels of anti Semitism. 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:40.399 Yeah, it's a very interesting there's a very interesting tension 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:44.760 always between freedom of speech and security and safety. We're 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:48.240 learning in a multicultural twenty first century society. 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:50.800 What some of those tensions are. Let's move on now. 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:55.000 Britney Higgins, of course everyone would remember, was paid two 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:58.639 point four million dollars by the Commonwealth in a settlement 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:03.159 for the use and mistreatment she suffered during the whole 0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:08.280 Brittney Higgins, Bruce Lherman Saga. Linda Reynolds, naturally, the outgoing 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:12.880 senator who was accused of misconduct and painted with this brush, 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:16.600 was rightfully quite upset about the payment and referred it 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:21.920 to the National Anti Corruption Commission, saying that labor potentially interfered. 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:24.399 It was not fair, she wasn't given a chance to 0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:29.240 participate in the mediation. But the National Anti Corruption Commission 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:33.160 has come back and said nothing to see here. 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:35.960 This was all totally above. 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:40.840 Board and there was no corruption whatsoever. I mean, I 0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:47.920 do find that particularly strange, given how the entire saga 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:52.840 was politicized by Miss Higgins and her partner David Chraaz, 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:56.040 and then Labor as well used it as an attack 0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:58.879 point against the Coalition, trying to paint them with this 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:03.840 broad brush of being terrible party, sexist, treating women badly, etc. 0:21:04.200 --> 0:21:04.400 Etc. 0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:08.600 And then Drayfus himself, who was Attorney General when this 0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:12.920 payment was made, had made previous comments in Parliament quoting 0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:16.440 Miss higgins version of events. So I don't know, does 0:21:16.480 --> 0:21:17.280 this stuck up? 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:20.080 No, not at all. I don't think it passes the 0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:23.360 pub test. And it's not just you saying that, Fray, 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:26.320 I mean the Federal Court Judge Michael Lee made a 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:29.479 number of findings. I mean, he did find that Brittany 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:32.800 Higgins was raped on the balance of probabilities, which is 0:21:32.960 --> 0:21:36.400 of course a much lower standard than in a criminal matter. 0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:41.120 But he also found that the allegations that there had 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:44.800 been a political cover up, that Linda Reynolds and the 0:21:44.880 --> 0:21:49.320 Chief of Staff Fiona Brown had not supported her, that 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:54.920 they'd tried to discourage her from reporting it had absolutely 0:21:54.960 --> 0:21:59.159 no basis whatsoever, and he was scathing about the fact 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:03.000 that that had been put forward. So I think that's 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:05.639 a really important part of the case that can be 0:22:05.720 --> 0:22:09.200 forgotten here. Of course, the payout was made, the compensation 0:22:09.400 --> 0:22:12.240 was made, I think before even the verdicts came down 0:22:12.280 --> 0:22:16.840 in this after one day of mediation. Linda Reynolds wasn't 0:22:16.840 --> 0:22:20.320 allowed to participate. She said they wouldn't pay any of 0:22:20.359 --> 0:22:24.680 her legal fees, so she couldn't and as a result 0:22:24.800 --> 0:22:27.040 she is now suing the Commonwealth. I mean, this is 0:22:27.080 --> 0:22:29.600 not ending, but a big part of the payout, to 0:22:29.800 --> 0:22:32.320 just quickly make this point, a big part of the 0:22:32.359 --> 0:22:35.160 two point four million was that the idea that Britdany 0:22:35.240 --> 0:22:37.639 Higgins would never be able to work again. And of 0:22:37.720 --> 0:22:40.840 course she has gone on to hold a number of jobs, 0:22:40.880 --> 0:22:44.760 some of them unpaid, and now is working as a 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:49.840 director in a boutique PR agency. So obviously that was 0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:52.359 not true. I mean, maybe she didn't know what would happen, 0:22:52.400 --> 0:22:55.040 but it was a big wild punt to take that 0:22:55.119 --> 0:22:57.760 someone would be so traumatized they could never work again. 0:22:57.880 --> 0:23:00.800 I mean, the na double c the knack as they 0:23:00.840 --> 0:23:02.760 call it. As far as I'm concerned, should be sent 0:23:02.800 --> 0:23:05.280 to the knackery. It shouldn't have existed in the first place, 0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:09.360