1 00:00:04,050 --> 00:00:06,540 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to The Fear and Greed daily interview, I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,540 --> 00:00:10,529 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. Work related illnesses and injuries in Australia come with 3 00:00:10,530 --> 00:00:14,940 Sean Aylmer: an annual cost of almost $ 62 billion. We're talking loss 4 00:00:14,940 --> 00:00:17,489 Sean Aylmer: of productivity, loss of income, and quality of life, not 5 00:00:17,489 --> 00:00:20,220 Sean Aylmer: to mention the cost to the health system. With more than 6 00:00:20,220 --> 00:00:23,250 Sean Aylmer: half a million Australians falling into this category every year, 7 00:00:23,489 --> 00:00:25,860 Sean Aylmer: there's an enormous need to get the return to work 8 00:00:25,860 --> 00:00:29,759 Sean Aylmer: right. Renee Thornton is the General Manager of corporate health provider Rehab 9 00:00:29,759 --> 00:00:31,590 Sean Aylmer: Management. Renee, welcome to Fear and Greed. 10 00:00:32,250 --> 00:00:33,960 Renee Thornton: Thanks for having me on the show, Sean. 11 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,320 Sean Aylmer: What's the scale of the challenge here? I mentioned the 12 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:41,220 Sean Aylmer: number of people sustaining injuries and illnesses. Has this grown 13 00:00:41,220 --> 00:00:45,360 Sean Aylmer: particularly as awareness and understanding of mental illness improves? 14 00:00:46,170 --> 00:00:49,889 Renee Thornton: Certainly what we've seen is an increase in psychological injuries 15 00:00:49,889 --> 00:00:53,939 Renee Thornton: being documented as well as being claimed from a workplace 16 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,970 Renee Thornton: illness perspective. And that is but part of the large 17 00:00:56,970 --> 00:01:00,779 Renee Thornton: growth in the cost that's costing Australian businesses each year. 18 00:01:01,830 --> 00:01:04,590 Renee Thornton: Further to that, what we're seeing or what we can 19 00:01:04,590 --> 00:01:07,889 Renee Thornton: extrapolate is if these costs continue and we continue to 20 00:01:07,889 --> 00:01:11,729 Renee Thornton: see rising claim costs and impacts of work related illness 21 00:01:11,730 --> 00:01:15,870 Renee Thornton: and injury, then that could impact premiums that employers are 22 00:01:15,870 --> 00:01:19,890 Renee Thornton: paying as well from a worker's compensation perspective. But it 23 00:01:20,429 --> 00:01:24,450 Renee Thornton: just doesn't also include the cost of what it actually 24 00:01:24,450 --> 00:01:27,690 Renee Thornton: costs the employer from a workplace perspective in terms of 25 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:32,130 Renee Thornton: having staff available and productive at work and the impacts 26 00:01:32,130 --> 00:01:34,830 Renee Thornton: that that can have on the employer and their team. 27 00:01:35,700 --> 00:01:40,080 Sean Aylmer: Okay. We're talking about an individual here, which is of 28 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:44,129 Sean Aylmer: prime concern, also the individuals workmates, but also then the 29 00:01:44,459 --> 00:01:48,900 Sean Aylmer: general business as well. And then that feeds through to financials 30 00:01:48,900 --> 00:01:51,750 Sean Aylmer: in terms of premiums and things like that. Getting people 31 00:01:51,750 --> 00:01:55,200 Sean Aylmer: back to work in good health and in a manner 32 00:01:55,500 --> 00:01:59,219 Sean Aylmer: that they can sustain is critical. If we go to the beginning 33 00:01:59,219 --> 00:02:02,370 Sean Aylmer: of it, how important is it to get the diagnosis right? 34 00:02:03,150 --> 00:02:05,549 Renee Thornton: It is very important to get the diagnosis right in 35 00:02:05,549 --> 00:02:07,980 Renee Thornton: the first instance, but that can be quite a challenge 36 00:02:07,980 --> 00:02:11,490 Renee Thornton: with some physical injuries as well as psychological injuries that 37 00:02:11,490 --> 00:02:15,540 Renee Thornton: take time to diagnose, but really understanding the person's symptoms 38 00:02:15,900 --> 00:02:18,090 Renee Thornton: and how that's impacting them in their day to day 39 00:02:18,090 --> 00:02:21,299 Renee Thornton: activities and what that means for their work is really 40 00:02:21,299 --> 00:02:24,690 Renee Thornton: important to get right in the first instance so that 41 00:02:24,719 --> 00:02:27,360 Renee Thornton: the work that the person is doing is in line 42 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,899 Renee Thornton: with their recovery and going to promote that early recovery 43 00:02:30,900 --> 00:02:32,430 Renee Thornton: as well and not aggravate or prolong the process. 44 00:02:32,429 --> 00:02:37,018 Sean Aylmer: What is the process of getting someone back to work? Rehab 45 00:02:37,020 --> 00:02:41,160 Sean Aylmer: Management gets involved, by this time, presumably, the individual has 46 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:45,779 Sean Aylmer: been diagnosed in some way or other. Where do you 47 00:02:45,779 --> 00:02:46,349 Sean Aylmer: come into it? 48 00:02:46,770 --> 00:02:50,010 Renee Thornton: That's a good question. We come in from a number 49 00:02:50,010 --> 00:02:53,190 Renee Thornton: of different angles. Usually with, say, a small to medium 50 00:02:53,190 --> 00:02:56,939 Renee Thornton: employer, a claim might have been lodged through the insurer 51 00:02:56,940 --> 00:03:01,500 Renee Thornton: and the insurer decides that this particular person may benefit 52 00:03:01,500 --> 00:03:05,520 Renee Thornton: from having the support of a workplace rehab provider. In 53 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:09,929 Renee Thornton: other instances, more with medium and larger employers, they already 54 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:14,789 Renee Thornton: sometimes can at times have preferred relationships with workplace rehab 55 00:03:14,790 --> 00:03:17,969 Renee Thornton: providers where they will engage early, sometimes even before the 56 00:03:17,969 --> 00:03:19,950 Renee Thornton: claim has come to fruition. 57 00:03:20,790 --> 00:03:23,220 Sean Aylmer: And then typically, what do you do? And I'll give 58 00:03:23,220 --> 00:03:26,970 Sean Aylmer: you two settings, one's a manufacturing setting, another is a 59 00:03:26,970 --> 00:03:30,870 Sean Aylmer: white collar office setting. How do you operate? 60 00:03:31,770 --> 00:03:33,869 Renee Thornton: It's a good question. We get to see lots of 61 00:03:33,870 --> 00:03:37,800 Renee Thornton: amazing workplaces and roles that you wouldn't even think existed, 62 00:03:38,070 --> 00:03:41,369 Renee Thornton: but typically a workplace rehab provider will meet with the 63 00:03:41,370 --> 00:03:44,310 Renee Thornton: worker and their employer or supervisor in the first instance, 64 00:03:44,460 --> 00:03:48,150 Renee Thornton: and they'll do a review of the person's duties. In 65 00:03:48,150 --> 00:03:52,708 Renee Thornton: a manufacturing setting that would be going onto the floor, 66 00:03:52,770 --> 00:03:56,700 Renee Thornton: understanding exactly what that person does. If it's a physical 67 00:03:56,700 --> 00:04:00,780 Renee Thornton: injury, what components of their role are impacted by their 68 00:04:00,780 --> 00:04:05,039 Renee Thornton: physical injury, and then looking at different options for what 69 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:08,460 Renee Thornton: we would typically call suitable duties that would suit the 70 00:04:08,460 --> 00:04:11,879 Renee Thornton: person's injury and/ or illness. And it's the same thing 71 00:04:11,879 --> 00:04:15,720 Renee Thornton: from a psychological perspective in that manufacturing setting we would 72 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:19,320 Renee Thornton: still be reviewing the psychological aspects of the role and 73 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:23,460 Renee Thornton: understanding that person's symptoms and then identifying duties that are 74 00:04:23,460 --> 00:04:26,999 Renee Thornton: suitable for that person to complete and really collaborating with 75 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:31,110 Renee Thornton: the worker and their supervisor and employer around having meaningful 76 00:04:31,110 --> 00:04:34,050 Renee Thornton: duties for that person to really help promote their recovery. 77 00:04:34,410 --> 00:04:36,630 Renee Thornton: And it's exactly the same in terms of what we 78 00:04:36,630 --> 00:04:38,820 Renee Thornton: would do in a white collar workplace as well. 79 00:04:39,540 --> 00:04:41,520 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Renee, we'll be back in a minute. 80 00:04:47,459 --> 00:04:51,089 Sean Aylmer: I'm speaking to Renee Thornton, General Manager of Rehab Management. 81 00:04:52,020 --> 00:04:55,320 Sean Aylmer: Okay. How is rehabilitating when you go through that? 30 82 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,799 Sean Aylmer: years ago when I first started working, I don't think 83 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:03,270 Sean Aylmer: the idea of workplace rehabilitation was invented, and then maybe 84 00:05:03,270 --> 00:05:08,159 Sean Aylmer: 15 years ago, particularly with psychological trauma, there were always a 85 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,950 Sean Aylmer: phone number you could ring. It's come a long way 86 00:05:10,950 --> 00:05:11,670 Sean Aylmer: since then, though. 87 00:05:12,300 --> 00:05:15,539 Renee Thornton: Definitely has come a long way since then. Typically, it's 88 00:05:15,750 --> 00:05:20,520 Renee Thornton: legislated. Our workplace rehabilitation to be offered for somebody that 89 00:05:20,820 --> 00:05:24,570 Renee Thornton: has a worker's compensation injury, Rehab Management have actually been 90 00:05:24,570 --> 00:05:28,620 Renee Thornton: around for 24 years so it's definitely been an industry 91 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,099 Renee Thornton: for a long time. But in terms of how the 92 00:05:32,099 --> 00:05:36,089 Renee Thornton: industry has changed or the engagement of workplace rehab providers, 93 00:05:36,450 --> 00:05:39,779 Renee Thornton: it's really through a lot of evidence and years of 94 00:05:39,809 --> 00:05:43,740 Renee Thornton: research demonstrates that by having somebody come in that is 95 00:05:44,100 --> 00:05:47,880 Renee Thornton: an independent party with an allied health professional background that 96 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,959 Renee Thornton: can understand the person's injury and their workplace, it's really 97 00:05:52,380 --> 00:05:56,248 Renee Thornton: enabled our industry to grow because we can demonstrate that 98 00:05:56,250 --> 00:05:59,939 Renee Thornton: we are effective in supporting the worker and their employer 99 00:06:00,029 --> 00:06:05,160 Renee Thornton: to getting that person back to work as quickly and as suitably as possible. 100 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,450 Sean Aylmer: We're getting more people back to work in a sustainable 101 00:06:09,570 --> 00:06:11,880 Sean Aylmer: manner. I'm sure 20 years ago people just had to 102 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:14,400 Sean Aylmer: go back to work, but it's not actually about the 103 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:16,680 Sean Aylmer: first week or second week, it's whether they're a year 104 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:17,760 Sean Aylmer: or two, it's time, really. 105 00:06:18,270 --> 00:06:22,920 Renee Thornton: Yeah. It's interesting, the statistics of returning back into work 106 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,099 Renee Thornton: after a workplace injury haven't actually changed a lot over 107 00:06:26,099 --> 00:06:29,250 Renee Thornton: the last 15 years, but what has changed is the 108 00:06:29,250 --> 00:06:32,759 Renee Thornton: nature of the injury and also the timeframe for somebody 109 00:06:32,759 --> 00:06:37,020 Renee Thornton: returning back into the workplace. We're typically seeing a lot 110 00:06:37,020 --> 00:06:41,220 Renee Thornton: more psychological injuries and also a protracted return to work, 111 00:06:41,220 --> 00:06:43,830 Renee Thornton: so it's taking a bit longer to get people back 112 00:06:43,830 --> 00:06:46,080 Renee Thornton: to work than say what it did 15 years ago. 113 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,979 Renee Thornton: And there could be multiple reasons for that. It could be 114 00:06:49,980 --> 00:06:53,430 Renee Thornton: the dynamics of the employment, it could be the types 115 00:06:53,430 --> 00:06:57,000 Renee Thornton: of roles that people are doing, the change in just 116 00:06:57,089 --> 00:07:01,320 Renee Thornton: general work in itself, but it's multifactorial. 117 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,080 Sean Aylmer: What about the pandemic? What did that mean for the 118 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,320 Sean Aylmer: number of people injured at work and for their rehabilitation? 119 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:08,999 Sean Aylmer: Did it go up or did it go down because 120 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,460 Sean Aylmer: people weren't in the office or in the manufacturing site? 121 00:07:11,969 --> 00:07:18,270 Renee Thornton: It didn't necessarily change significantly because for manufacturing, those workplaces 122 00:07:18,300 --> 00:07:22,170 Renee Thornton: were still in production generally. Yes, with more precautions and 123 00:07:22,170 --> 00:07:24,900 Renee Thornton: things in place. And then from more of that white 124 00:07:24,900 --> 00:07:27,690 Renee Thornton: collar or desk based work where people were able to 125 00:07:27,690 --> 00:07:31,830 Renee Thornton: work from home, what we actually saw was potentially people 126 00:07:31,830 --> 00:07:36,450 Renee Thornton: working longer hours, more repetitive strain injuries, and also that 127 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:41,040 Renee Thornton: lack of shutting off from the workplace, so an increase 128 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,969 Renee Thornton: in psychological claims, which could also have been part of 129 00:07:44,969 --> 00:07:49,260 Renee Thornton: the general dynamics of it was a highly stressful few 130 00:07:49,260 --> 00:07:53,760 Renee Thornton: years for everybody that's probably contributed to that impact as well. 131 00:07:54,270 --> 00:07:56,730 Sean Aylmer: Okay. What's the size of the prize? I've seen some 132 00:07:56,730 --> 00:08:00,750 Sean Aylmer: statistics about the return on investment for early intervention, and 133 00:08:00,750 --> 00:08:04,320 Sean Aylmer: I think it was for every dollar the return's about $75, which 134 00:08:04,410 --> 00:08:07,679 Sean Aylmer: seems too good to be true almost. But is that 135 00:08:07,679 --> 00:08:08,339 Sean Aylmer: the case and why? 136 00:08:09,630 --> 00:08:12,270 Renee Thornton: It definitely is. That's what the research tells us, that 137 00:08:12,660 --> 00:08:16,440 Renee Thornton: it is the case and it's easy to have your 138 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:21,059 Renee Thornton: control groups of workplace rehab involvement versus not, so that 139 00:08:21,059 --> 00:08:24,900 Renee Thornton: there is a really clear delineation between the statistics of 140 00:08:24,900 --> 00:08:28,110 Renee Thornton: those that have had a workplace rehab provider engaged to 141 00:08:28,110 --> 00:08:31,980 Renee Thornton: those that haven't. Where that return on investment really improves 142 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:35,969 Renee Thornton: is getting in early so that really early intervention. And 143 00:08:35,969 --> 00:08:38,730 Renee Thornton: it usually means that if a workplace rehab provider can 144 00:08:38,730 --> 00:08:41,819 Renee Thornton: get in earlier they may not actually be involved for 145 00:08:41,820 --> 00:08:45,059 Renee Thornton: as long as if we come in six or 12 or 24 146 00:08:45,059 --> 00:08:49,439 Renee Thornton: months down the line. It's shorter, sharper intervention in the 147 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:52,500 Renee Thornton: first instance. And often when we get in early, we're 148 00:08:52,500 --> 00:08:55,529 Renee Thornton: able to really set it up nicely for the employer, 149 00:08:55,530 --> 00:08:58,260 Renee Thornton: for the worker to feel really supported. A lot of 150 00:08:58,260 --> 00:09:05,040 Renee Thornton: workplaces don't have typical instances of workers' compensation claims so 151 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:07,470 Renee Thornton: they do need a little bit of support, education, and 152 00:09:07,470 --> 00:09:10,349 Renee Thornton: direction. And usually we can set that up so that 153 00:09:10,349 --> 00:09:13,468 Renee Thornton: everybody is on board, understands what the goals are and 154 00:09:13,469 --> 00:09:15,480 Renee Thornton: can actually manage that themselves moving forward. 155 00:09:16,530 --> 00:09:19,800 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Now, last year you won the Veteran Support Program of the Year. 156 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,199 Sean Aylmer: This is something we really haven't spoken much about on 157 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:24,900 Sean Aylmer: Fear and Greed that we now have a large number 158 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:27,870 Sean Aylmer: of veterans most recently from the war in Afghanistan who 159 00:09:27,870 --> 00:09:32,370 Sean Aylmer: are now adjusting to civilian life, other jobs post military 160 00:09:32,370 --> 00:09:35,490 Sean Aylmer: roles. What kind of additional support do they need from 161 00:09:35,490 --> 00:09:37,559 Sean Aylmer: employers and organizations like yours? 162 00:09:38,309 --> 00:09:40,830 Renee Thornton: That's a very good question, and it's a very broad 163 00:09:40,830 --> 00:09:44,490 Renee Thornton: question as well. We did win the Program of the Year, and 164 00:09:44,490 --> 00:09:49,170 Renee Thornton: that was really around a psychosocial intervention program, so really 165 00:09:49,170 --> 00:09:53,279 Renee Thornton: focusing on supporting that veteran, not only to manage maybe 166 00:09:53,279 --> 00:09:57,510 Renee Thornton: medical conditions, but also to manage the psychological or psychosocial 167 00:09:57,510 --> 00:10:00,900 Renee Thornton: aspects of their life and engage in activity. And our 168 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:04,799 Renee Thornton: program was really looking at getting beyond just the return 169 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,009 Renee Thornton: to work or beyond just the injury and actually improving 170 00:10:08,009 --> 00:10:11,399 Renee Thornton: that quality of life, which we know will also improve 171 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:15,478 Renee Thornton: the effectiveness of returning back into employment. I think for 172 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:19,740 Renee Thornton: employers looking to employ veterans it's really about veterans are 173 00:10:19,740 --> 00:10:23,670 Renee Thornton: very diverse and having very open conversations around what their 174 00:10:23,670 --> 00:10:26,639 Renee Thornton: specific needs are and how they can be supported in 175 00:10:26,639 --> 00:10:30,300 Renee Thornton: employment because they are a very, very skilled workforce as well. 176 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:34,080 Sean Aylmer: I think that's wonderful and as the fact we have 177 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:36,990 Sean Aylmer: so much many more veterans, we also have other groups, 178 00:10:36,990 --> 00:10:40,260 Sean Aylmer: maybe they're migrants who had trauma early in life, for 179 00:10:40,260 --> 00:10:46,169 Sean Aylmer: example, maybe there's some other disadvantaged groups, socioeconomic disadvantaged groups. 180 00:10:47,250 --> 00:10:50,760 Sean Aylmer: As an employer, you really do have to be fairly wide- 181 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:53,550 Sean Aylmer: eyed about how you're going to help people when you 182 00:10:53,550 --> 00:10:57,030 Sean Aylmer: employ them, particularly if they're coming back to work, how 183 00:10:57,030 --> 00:10:57,990 Sean Aylmer: you're going to do that. 184 00:10:58,950 --> 00:11:02,099 Renee Thornton: I definitely would agree. And I think it's really back 185 00:11:02,099 --> 00:11:05,218 Renee Thornton: to that same having a very open mind and open dialogue 186 00:11:05,219 --> 00:11:07,800 Renee Thornton: and not being afraid to ask the question if you're 187 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:12,600 Renee Thornton: not sure of somebody's background, cultural background or where they've 188 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:16,290 Renee Thornton: come from. It's being that really open employer and open 189 00:11:16,290 --> 00:11:20,460 Renee Thornton: to suggestions, but also open to feedback around what can 190 00:11:20,460 --> 00:11:23,309 Renee Thornton: be put in place to support that person in employment. 191 00:11:23,309 --> 00:11:27,929 Renee Thornton: We all want to see successful employment and we recruit to 192 00:11:27,990 --> 00:11:32,100 Renee Thornton: retain so it's really worth that investment from an employer's perspective. 193 00:11:32,700 --> 00:11:34,470 Sean Aylmer: Renee, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 194 00:11:34,650 --> 00:11:36,660 Renee Thornton: Thanks, Sean for having me on the program. 195 00:11:37,110 --> 00:11:40,559 Sean Aylmer: That was Renee Thornton, General Manager of Rehab Management. This 196 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:42,720 Sean Aylmer: is the Fear and Greed daily interview, join us every 197 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,030 Sean Aylmer: morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's 198 00:11:45,030 --> 00:11:48,540 Sean Aylmer: most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer, enjoy your day.