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Speaker 1: Apodjay Production. Hi everyone, it's Sal.

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Speaker 2: I just wanted to jump on before the next episode

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Speaker 2: and give a massive shout out to you all. Thank

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Speaker 2: you for listening to the Missing Matter podcast. We have

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Speaker 2: now reached five hundred k downloads and that means that

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Speaker 2: more people are hearing these important stories of missing loved

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Speaker 2: ones all around the world in the hope that we

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Speaker 2: find that someone who knows something. We're almost near the

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Speaker 2: end of season one and I'd love to open the

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Speaker 2: opportunity up to anyone who has a story they need

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Speaker 2: to tell. If you or someone you know could benefit

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Speaker 2: by joining me in a gentle conversation on the Missing

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Speaker 2: Matter Podcast, please reach out to me at info at

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Speaker 2: the Missingmatter dot com. Stay safe.

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Speaker 3: In today's episode of The Missing Matter, Sal speaks with

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Speaker 3: someone who's been searching for the truth, not because he

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Speaker 3: lost a loved one, but because he couldn't look away

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Speaker 3: from those who have. For over three decades, journalist Brian

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Speaker 3: Lidley has been telling stories that matter, stories of injustice,

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Speaker 3: of persistence, and of people who refuse to give up.

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Speaker 3: In twenty eleven, his life intersected with one of Australia's

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Speaker 3: most haunting cold cases, the disappearance of Joanne Ratcliffe and

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Speaker 3: Christy Gordon, two young girls who vanished from Adelaide Oval.

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Speaker 3: In nineteen seventy three.

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Speaker 4: Thousands of South Australian footy fans packed into Adelaide Oval,

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Speaker 4: to which the North Adelaide Roosters take on the Norwood

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Speaker 4: Red Legs. Among them were the families of eleven year

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Speaker 4: old Joanne Ratcliffe and four year old Kirsty Gordon. During

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Speaker 4: the game's third quarter, the two young friends set off

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Speaker 4: for the toilets, but the girls never returned.

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Speaker 3: What began as an assignment became a mission, one that's

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Speaker 3: led Brian deep into archives, into the outback, and into

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Speaker 3: the lives of families still waiting for answers. Today, Sale

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Speaker 3: talks about what drives him to keep going, the costs

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Speaker 3: of that search, and why for him the Missing Matter.

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Speaker 2: Well, welcome back everybody to the Missing Matter Podcast. Today,

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Speaker 2: I have invited a gentleman who I've been lucky enough

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Speaker 2: to meet a couple of times actually in person, once

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Speaker 2: in Sydney, once in Melbourne. His name is Brian Litley,

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Speaker 2: and I've just been so impressed with all the work

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Speaker 2: that Brian has been doing in the Missing Space. He

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Speaker 2: doesn't have a missing person, but he definitely is helping

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Speaker 2: a lot of families actually, but particularly the case of

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Speaker 2: Joanne Ratcliffe and Kirsty Gordon, who were the young girls

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Speaker 2: who went missing from Adelaide back in nineteen and Kersey

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Speaker 2: and Joe have now been missing for nineteen thousand and

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Speaker 2: fifty six days. Welcome Brian to the Missing Matter Podcast.

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Speaker 5: Hi, Sally, it's good to be here and I'm enjoying

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Speaker 5: seeing what you do and what plenty of other people

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Speaker 5: in this space also do as well, starting to speak

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Speaker 5: up for missing persons and keep those stories in the spotlight.

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Speaker 5: It's been very busy in recent times, so it's good

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Speaker 5: to be joining someone who has that kind of passion

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Speaker 5: and you've certainly shown that for a long time.

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Speaker 2: Let's start you tell us a little bit about your

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Speaker 2: background in journalism.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so I've spent more than thirty years as a journalist,

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Speaker 5: starting in regional newspapers. Might not shock people who know me,

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Speaker 5: but back when I was in school, I was actually

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Speaker 5: pretty good at English. But I wanted to get into

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Speaker 5: the police force, and I left school applied for the

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Speaker 5: police force as a seventeen year old, and everything was

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Speaker 5: good with all the testing and everything like that. But

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Speaker 5: there was five hundred people going for twenty five payss

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Speaker 5: at that time and I wasn't even old enough to

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Speaker 5: go into the academy when I went through my testing

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Speaker 5: and they said, look, you would make the police force,

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Speaker 5: but how about you go and get some life experience

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Speaker 5: and away you go, and I fell into journalism. Then

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Speaker 5: I actually went into newspaper as a compositor, doing the

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Speaker 5: cut and pace to put the papers together, all that

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Speaker 5: production side of things, and I just started writing some stories.

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Speaker 5: Actually went some of the high school students who wrote

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Speaker 5: our youth pages didn't turn up for a couple of months.

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Speaker 5: I started writing stories and I got a cadet shit there.

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Speaker 5: So I really fell into a journalism. I loved it,

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Speaker 5: and I think I went out and started getting some

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Speaker 5: life experience and reporting on crimes and reporting on incidents

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Speaker 5: and going about things that way. So I spent fifteen

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Speaker 5: years with News Corps as regional editor and motoring editor

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Speaker 5: and police reporting at the Advertiser before becoming the chief

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Speaker 5: of staff and then when I left the chief of

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Speaker 5: staffing role in two thousand and nine, I became investigations

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Speaker 5: editor at the Advertiser. And I did that through to

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Speaker 5: twenty fifteen, and then since twenty fifteen I've just continued that,

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Speaker 5: carrying my own investigative work while going into public relations

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Speaker 5: and a little bit of time and government media roles.

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Speaker 5: And then in twenty twenty I've made my return to

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Speaker 5: newspapers in regional newspapers, where I still actively work in

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Speaker 5: newspaper reporting for some regional publications, but from my home

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Speaker 5: base in South Australia and all around the country.

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Speaker 2: A lot of experience there behind you, and I guess,

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Speaker 2: being that you are from South Australia, you would have

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Speaker 2: seen quite a lot of articles coming over your desk

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Speaker 2: about the girls.

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Speaker 1: When was it that you first.

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Speaker 2: Really heard about Joanne and Kirsty's story?

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Speaker 5: Really, it was only in twenty eleven when I got

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Speaker 5: an understanding of materials that had been sent to me

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Speaker 5: in my role as investigations editor aut the Advertiser. I'd

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Speaker 5: only really had a vague understanding that two girls had

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Speaker 5: gone missing from Adelaide Oval decades earlier, and I didn't

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Speaker 5: know the times. I didn't know the story, but had

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Speaker 5: come up a little bit over that time at the Advertiser,

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Speaker 5: just a vague mention of this case, but really nothing

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Speaker 5: had really been written about it too much since two

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Speaker 5: thousand and one when I joined the Advertiser. I've never

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Speaker 5: really seen that much there, and i'd been investigating or

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Speaker 5: looking at police news and police crimes and really in

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Speaker 5: the thick of that, so it came quite surprising to

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Speaker 5: me that there wasn't more about it. But it'd been

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Speaker 5: really dead quiet for twenty thirty years.

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Speaker 2: So when was the first time that you actually met Susie.

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Speaker 5: Well, my first contact with Susie was I had written

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Speaker 5: a story about the materials that had been sent to me,

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Speaker 5: which are materials that we contained a map at a

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Speaker 5: statement that was made to the Mulligan Inquiry. At the

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Speaker 5: time of first getting that and reading that, I didn't

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Speaker 5: know what that material was and where it had come from,

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Speaker 5: and I didn't know it was part of the mother

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Speaker 5: ging in Quarie. It's just an envelope with sixty three

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Speaker 5: pages of written statement in there, and it was quite confronting.

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Speaker 5: I got that in two thousand and nine and I'd

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Speaker 5: read it and I actually put it back in my

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Speaker 5: draw and it sat there for almost two years before

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Speaker 5: I recognized the name of Mark Trevor Marshall. Whose name

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Speaker 5: was on that document, and he'd come up in other

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Speaker 5: matters with regards to his role being refused because of

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Speaker 5: incidents of him having child exploitation material in his prison

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Speaker 5: cell in the Atlas. So that was how I sort

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Speaker 5: of made the connection between the material that I had

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Speaker 5: been sent a couple of years earlier and this case.

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Speaker 5: And it's when I first became aware of the Adelaide

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Speaker 5: Oval case. Really, I wrote an article and as part

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Speaker 5: of that following up from that, says he had started

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Speaker 5: to do some stuff the space of creating some social

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Speaker 5: media around her own personal quest to find answers for

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Speaker 5: joe Ane Ratcliffe. So I got in touch with Susie.

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Speaker 5: Are going to a really frosty reception. She didn't like journo's

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Speaker 5: at all, But we started the conversation about what I

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Speaker 5: had found and what the people who had come to

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Speaker 5: me and the people I would learn had sent me

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Speaker 5: that material and their private investigators who had been following

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Speaker 5: that case and starting to get the small breadcrumbs and

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Speaker 5: what turns out to be quite significant evidence, we say,

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Speaker 5: in that case. And they brought that to me because

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Speaker 5: they were being listened to either. So we formed a

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Speaker 5: working friendship then, and that grew as her trusted me grew.

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Speaker 2: It is quite a tricky space for us, being in

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Speaker 2: the missing space and dealing with media, and you know,

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Speaker 2: there is great media and there's not so great media,

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Speaker 2: and that it can be quite difficult to navigate that,

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Speaker 2: especially when you've had no formal training, you don't know

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Speaker 2: how to talk to people, you don't know what's you

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Speaker 2: know that people are going to change your words or

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Speaker 2: misquote you, and that still happens to me today. So

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Speaker 2: good on you for establishing that relationship with sus For

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Speaker 2: those of you who don't know, haven't put the dots together,

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Speaker 2: Susie Ratcliffe is an amazing human. Susie was actually one

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Speaker 2: of the first people in the Missing space to reach

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Speaker 2: out to me personally.

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Speaker 1: And obviously there was quite a lot of delays.

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Speaker 2: For me in the missing space because my mum was

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Speaker 2: not regarded as missing by the police, so mum wasn't

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Speaker 2: on any missing person's register or anything, actually just zero.

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Speaker 2: So the fact that Susie actually found me through my

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Speaker 2: Facebook and Susie and yourself, actually, Brian, you collectively have

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Speaker 2: worked together in the project called Leave a Light On. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: Brian and I actually just caught up in Melbourne last

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Speaker 2: weekend for the Leave a Light On event, which was

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Speaker 2: amazing and brings families close together and we get an

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Speaker 2: opportunity to have a talk about our case and what

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Speaker 2: we're doing and where we're at and just show support

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Speaker 2: and care for each other, which is really important and

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Speaker 2: very precious.

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Speaker 5: Actually, yeah, it's really good. It's the first time in

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Speaker 5: about five years that we've been able to have an

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Speaker 5: event like that because of a whole heap of circumstances

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Speaker 5: which have prevented us from doing it. Trying to get

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Speaker 5: people together in a space is a challenge. Like we've

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Speaker 5: got busy lives, and I have a busy life, you know.

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Speaker 5: I've run a farm, i work for a newspaper in

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Speaker 5: Port Douglas, and I live in South Australia. And then

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Speaker 5: I have a full time job, which is working in

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Speaker 5: a milk factory and I do that at night time,

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Speaker 5: so I can create the time and the space to

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Speaker 5: be able to do some work in the investigation space

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Speaker 5: and do some work on cases at the moment, particularly

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Speaker 5: the Adelaide Oval case of the abduction of Joanne and Kirsty.

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Speaker 5: But fortunately that we've got some great people around us

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Speaker 5: as well that that give us the support and we

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Speaker 5: can lean on other people to be able to do

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Speaker 5: jobs and roles in the space. And we're all volunteers

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Speaker 5: working together in this space for a common cause.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which is amazing.

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Speaker 2: Let's just talk about what you're doing in this space

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Speaker 2: right now and some of the difficulties, the costs and

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Speaker 2: the roadblocks that you guys are encountering.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. So at the moment, we have been physically searching

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Speaker 5: key locations in mid North South Australia for items to

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Speaker 5: support that statement that sparked my journey when it came

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Speaker 5: to the missing person space. So that's a statement that

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Speaker 5: was made by March of A Marshall to the Mulligate Inquiry,

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Speaker 5: which had been followed by a group of private investigators

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Speaker 5: as early as two thousand and nine. We are looking

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Speaker 5: for the supporting evidence and materials that actually stack up

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Speaker 5: that statement which has been some years ago twenty eleven

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Speaker 5: when I first came across it and reported on it

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Speaker 5: by South Australian Police as pure fantasy. That we don't

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Speaker 5: believe it is pure fantasy. We believe there is value

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Speaker 5: in that and there's information in that that can help

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Speaker 5: bring light into this case and move forward to get

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Speaker 5: there there. So we are we've been physically looking for

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Speaker 5: the points that support that statement.

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Speaker 2: That piece of information. Just for people who might not

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Speaker 2: be following along and not know some of the background.

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Speaker 2: And I'm going to tell them to all to go

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Speaker 2: and listen to you and your Sleepers podcast because you

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Speaker 2: do deep dives into this, but just for today, just

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Speaker 2: so people can put the dots together. Why is that

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Speaker 2: piece of information or that statement so important, And just

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Speaker 2: a little bit of background on that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. So the statement is pretty much a confession and

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Speaker 5: it tells a story of how and who abducted the

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Speaker 5: two girls from Adelaide Oval and that person being a

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Speaker 5: man or central to it is a man by the

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Speaker 5: name of stan Hart and his property at Yatna in

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Speaker 5: mid North South Australia is a property that is listed

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Speaker 5: and maps drawn and some very confronting descriptions of where

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Speaker 5: the girl's bodies were disposed of. That's how I got

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Speaker 5: into the story was that the private investigators and I

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Speaker 5: can say it they have outlawed motorcycle gang links, went

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Speaker 5: looking for and following this map where there was an

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Speaker 5: X on the map and found barrels in a tunnel

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Speaker 5: that was completely sealed. It was a tunnel and they

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Speaker 5: did take police there at the time and police couldn't

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Speaker 5: find the tunnel despite standing in front of it. In

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Speaker 5: my mind, so those barrels are being retrieved and they

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Speaker 5: have returned some results from the South Australian Police Forenzy

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Speaker 5: slabbed in two thousand and nine of a weak trace

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Speaker 5: of blood and strong traces of acid. We have I

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Speaker 5: guess collectively when I say we the first people who

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Speaker 5: were involved in that search, and following with myself and

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Speaker 5: then Susie and other people in the missing person space

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Speaker 5: that we have built into our community, I guess more

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Speaker 5: than a team. There have been many efforts to try

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Speaker 5: to shore up that evidence because we do believe strongly

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Speaker 5: that it is evidence of of that crime.

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Speaker 2: You know, that's such an important document and I praise

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Speaker 2: you guys for actually doing more and not just taking

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Speaker 2: on the chin what the police are telling you. And

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Speaker 2: some of the difficulties, you know, let's talk about I

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Speaker 2: mean there's many, but let's talk about what you see

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Speaker 2: is the key difficulties in this case for you, I

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Speaker 2: think the.

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Speaker 5: Key difficulty for me is the main one is time.

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Speaker 5: And it's not just the time to process and consider

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Speaker 5: and rule out or in the information, but also the

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Speaker 5: time it takes to gain the trust of people who

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Speaker 5: do have key information which can help us to follow

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Speaker 5: these leads. And we're talking a decade that we've been

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Speaker 5: on this, and it's taken a decade for people to

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Speaker 5: build the trust to come to us and say you

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Speaker 5: might want to look here, and you might want to

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Speaker 5: look at this. You know, we have had some success, absolutely,

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Speaker 5: and that has come about because people have gone, you

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Speaker 5: are on the right track. Maybe this little bit of

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Speaker 5: information which I've held on to for a long time,

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Speaker 5: this is where the idea of sleepers comes from. It's

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Speaker 5: sleeping information. It's people who have not spoken up yet

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Speaker 5: that we want to reach out to you or get

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Speaker 5: reaching out to us and saying I don't know if

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Speaker 5: this is something or it's not, but I'm going to

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Speaker 5: tell you this. And my approach to it is that

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Speaker 5: we tell it raw and we tell it real, so

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Speaker 5: it's not manipulated by As you pointed out, you had

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Speaker 5: the experience recently of a media outlet mincing your words

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Speaker 5: and that so I don't want to mince anyone's words.

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Speaker 5: I want them to tell it how it is, as

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Speaker 5: if they're telling it to the police officers sitting there

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Speaker 5: in the room, So it isn't minced and it isn't

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Speaker 5: messed up. This is how they see things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I guess a question might be for you

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Speaker 2: for people following along in MySpace and people who have

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Speaker 2: missing persons, how are you finding those people? Brian, Like,

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Speaker 2: how are they coming to you with information? Because that's

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Speaker 2: obviously what we all want. We want people to come

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Speaker 2: forward and tell us what they know. So what do

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Speaker 2: you think is working?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Look, they're reaching out to me on social media.

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Speaker 5: As much as we can hate social media for we've

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Speaker 5: talked about roadblocks as well and some issues, there's a

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Speaker 5: lot of that on social media. There's a lot of

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Speaker 5: people that just throw stuff out there and it isn't validated.

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Speaker 5: And that's a hard thing is you've got to work

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Speaker 5: through so much information and go, oh, we'll check this,

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Speaker 5: we'll check that. And that's what we try to do

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Speaker 5: is check information and stand it up and prioritize bits

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Speaker 5: of information. But that social media platform is such a

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Speaker 5: powerful tool as well to be able to reach people

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Speaker 5: because you can get messages out there you can put

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Speaker 5: calls out there for people to come forward, and then

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Speaker 5: the big task is searching the week from the chaff,

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Speaker 5: isn't it. So which ones do you invest your time

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Speaker 5: in because we've got limited time, So it's a double

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Speaker 5: edge on social media.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and look, I mean I just recently had a

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Speaker 2: lady reach out to me telling me about a house

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Speaker 2: that she lived in in Grafton back in nineteen ninety

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Speaker 2: nine and two thousand, two years after my mum's gone missing,

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Speaker 2: and a dog that was living on the property at

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Speaker 2: the time with one of her flatmates, pulled a human

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Speaker 2: skull from underneath the house. And that's very difficult information.

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Speaker 2: That's like you get throwing these random comments and like

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Speaker 2: you just said, you've got to work out what you

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Speaker 2: have to investigate what you don't. I'm a person I

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Speaker 2: like to check everything if I can, But at the

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Speaker 2: end of the day, you know, we have to give

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Speaker 2: it to the police and then you know, then it

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Speaker 2: falls into the abyss, right, and we don't know because

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Speaker 2: the communication is so lack of communication that we're just

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Speaker 2: sitting waiting to find out have you actually looked into it?

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Speaker 1: What are you doing with it?

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Speaker 2: And then this is where it gets a bit problematic,

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Speaker 2: I think, because we.

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Speaker 1: Want to go and do it ourselves, right.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. I think the way I have approached to overcoming

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Speaker 5: that is the guests that I get on and the

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Speaker 5: information that I look to put out, I need it

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Speaker 5: to have landed in that space with an authority first.

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Speaker 5: So I need a pair who has comes to me

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Speaker 5: with information. I want to cross check that that they

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Speaker 5: have been to police already and given them that information,

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Speaker 5: and then I try to make that contact with police

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Speaker 5: to see that they have you know, they can validate

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Speaker 5: that this person has provided their information to the right

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Speaker 5: authority first, and there's always an outcome. They either take

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Speaker 5: it on board and they say we'll sit with that.

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Speaker 5: At least I know there's an outcome there that the

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Speaker 5: authorities have seen it, they're aware of it. If they

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Speaker 5: have an awareness of it, then I'll go and explore

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Speaker 5: to see how much more detail there is in there

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Speaker 5: that might be of value, and all our findings we

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Speaker 5: do take it back to police. At the end of

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Speaker 5: the day, the authority South Australian Police or whatever jurisdiction is,

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Speaker 5: they're the ones that have to act on this information.

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Speaker 2: And I mean in this case with the skull, the

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Speaker 2: woman had actually said that she had gone to police

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Speaker 2: but had never heard back from them. So I'm very

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Speaker 2: open and you probably have heard about Joni. Joanie's been

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Speaker 2: working with me heavily in my space too, and we're

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Speaker 2: both very diligent in making sure that the police get

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Speaker 2: everything they need to help because, as you say, like,

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Speaker 2: it's not really my job to do that, that's their job.

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Speaker 2: And people are coming to me with information, it's always

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Speaker 2: going to get passed on to the police to make

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Speaker 2: sure and check it out and see if it is

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Speaker 2: something that has been reported.

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Speaker 1: In the past.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, there's been a few problems with things

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Speaker 2: like crime Stoppers in my world where I've actually had

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Speaker 2: people come to me and I've said, can you go

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Speaker 2: and report it to crime stoppers, make sure you get

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Speaker 2: a reference number, And then I've gone back to the

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Speaker 2: homicide detectives and said did you get that? And they

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Speaker 2: haven't got it. So that sort of caused me a

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Speaker 2: bit of concern as well in this case, but you know,

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Speaker 2: we still keep pushing forward and hope for the best.

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Speaker 5: I'm certainly finding that with the people that come to

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Speaker 5: me as well. So ninety percent of the people that

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Speaker 5: have reached out to me have gone to crime stoppers

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Speaker 5: and just not heard back or head very little back,

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Speaker 5: or it's taken a long time, and people out there

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Speaker 5: are quite frustrated by that. And it's not me. These

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Speaker 5: are the people that are coming to us, you know,

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Speaker 5: they're frustrated by the response that they get from an

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Speaker 5: avenue that they're told is for them to contact and

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Speaker 5: make that information available. It certainly comes down to resourcing

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Speaker 5: in our police forces as well. We know that our

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Speaker 5: police forces are hugely under resourced. We are seeing a

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Speaker 5: fair better action in the missing person space or fairber

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Speaker 5: to talk from people demanding more action in the missing

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Speaker 5: personal space, I should say, because it is pushed out

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Speaker 5: of the line for I guess other crimes against people

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Speaker 5: and pressures on communities around the country escalat now. Police

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Speaker 5: feel that their time and their resource is the best

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Speaker 5: spent on combating those sorts of crimes as well, and

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Speaker 5: not so much time in the missing personal space. But

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Speaker 5: you know, as we say, the missing matter, don't.

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Speaker 2: They, And we keep pushing, and I think our voices

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Speaker 2: are louder when we all come together, and I am

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Speaker 2: seeing change and I am seeing more coming out of it,

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Speaker 2: so we can only keep doing what we're doing. So

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Speaker 2: let's talk about the costs involved, because obviously, you know,

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Speaker 2: you guys are totally self funded doing all of this.

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Speaker 1: How are you managing that?

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Speaker 5: We have a GoFundMe which has helped to put fueling

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Speaker 5: machines and food in the bellies of volunteers who have

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Speaker 5: been out there physically digging and searching for items that

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Speaker 5: support this case. But the cost is also the time

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Speaker 5: on the ground there. I give up work shifts to

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Speaker 5: be able to go out there and string two or

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Speaker 5: three days together on the ground. But it's also in

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Speaker 5: our family lives, So that's probably the biggest toll for us,

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Speaker 5: is to spending time with your family. For me, I

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Speaker 5: feel that that's one of the big pressures. You know,

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Speaker 5: a family that are very very supportive of me and

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Speaker 5: in this space, and very supportive of the persons that

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Speaker 5: we are trying to help as well, absolutely involved in

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Speaker 5: the Leila Foundation. But there's times we just need to

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Speaker 5: cut out, isn't there safe We just need to try

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Speaker 5: to shut the brain down. And I think the cost

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Speaker 5: on me is always thinking where to next, and you

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Speaker 5: know what to do next, and how do we give

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Speaker 5: these cases more voice and more exposure, and that's sort

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Speaker 5: of my role in that space is to be able

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Speaker 5: to get the stories out there, get people's stories out there.

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Speaker 5: So I work pretty hard at that. So but it

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Speaker 5: is the cost.

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Speaker 2: We're going to look after ourselves as well and keep

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Speaker 2: managing and it does take a lot mentally and also physically,

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Speaker 2: I think as well. So now tell us a little

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Speaker 2: bit about your involvement in LAILO, which is Leave a

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Speaker 2: Light On.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so I'm co founder of Leave a Light On.

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Speaker 5: I provide behind the scenes support and adamin and media

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Speaker 5: support for Susie. Although Susie has really grown in that

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Speaker 5: space of the media. She's fantastic there, but she works

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Speaker 5: with the families and really supporting them and does a

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Speaker 5: great job of just keeping across all those cases and

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Speaker 5: all those people and building those relationships. Leilah came about

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Speaker 5: as a result of Susie wanting to do more for

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Speaker 5: missing persons and their families that are going through the

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Speaker 5: same heartache as her family has done for fifty two years.

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Speaker 5: And in a conversation I raised that her family leaving

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Speaker 5: the Light of for Joe was something that you know,

437
00:23:04,201 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 5: I get shown up pretty much every time that I

438
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,921
Speaker 5: talk about that doesn't matter in what environment, what audience.

439
00:23:10,281 --> 00:23:12,360
Speaker 5: I could hardly get through it without a tear in

440
00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:15,201
Speaker 5: my eye. But we talked about that and that's where

441
00:23:15,241 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 5: the concept was born, and I said, that is perfect.

442
00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:21,281
Speaker 5: It sends a fantastic message. Being the media person that

443
00:23:21,321 --> 00:23:24,721
Speaker 5: I was in public relations, you know you can talk

444
00:23:24,761 --> 00:23:28,201
Speaker 5: to that leave the light on, and it's been something

445
00:23:28,281 --> 00:23:32,001
Speaker 5: that people right around the country have embraced and further afield,

446
00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:34,561
Speaker 5: you know, around the world globally have embraced. It's a

447
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:36,801
Speaker 5: very simple thing to be able to do. Yeah, it's

448
00:23:36,801 --> 00:23:38,801
Speaker 5: a very good message to be able to send out there.

449
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:40,640
Speaker 2: So yeah, because it happens on the twenty first of

450
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,360
Speaker 2: October every year is the night that we promote for

451
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 2: people to leave their lights on. And it's like a

452
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 2: bit of a guide. Leave your light on and let

453
00:23:47,681 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 2: them know that they're welcome home and they can come

454
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,881
Speaker 2: home anytime. And I was actually sitting in Tunbridge Wells

455
00:23:54,241 --> 00:23:56,401
Speaker 2: last year on the twenty first of October, I did

456
00:23:56,441 --> 00:23:58,561
Speaker 2: a post. I was on my research trip with Joonie.

457
00:23:59,001 --> 00:24:00,961
Speaker 2: The irony for me was the last time I spoke

458
00:24:01,001 --> 00:24:04,241
Speaker 2: to my mum. She was in Tumbridge Wells and I'm

459
00:24:04,321 --> 00:24:06,561
Speaker 2: sitting in tumber Roles and it's leave a light on.

460
00:24:06,681 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 2: So we left a lamp on and a lot of

461
00:24:09,281 --> 00:24:12,160
Speaker 2: people commenting and it just brings awareness to the space.

462
00:24:12,201 --> 00:24:14,961
Speaker 2: It's not about likes and comments, it's about bringing awareness.

463
00:24:15,041 --> 00:24:17,960
Speaker 5: So we turns up Taber twenty one. Because at the

464
00:24:18,041 --> 00:24:22,281
Speaker 5: time Susi was very very strong in her approach that

465
00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:24,640
Speaker 5: this wasn't about joe Aanne and Kirsty, it wasn't about

466
00:24:24,681 --> 00:24:27,440
Speaker 5: their case. It had to be about everyone. And she

467
00:24:27,561 --> 00:24:30,360
Speaker 5: did her research and looking through and at that time

468
00:24:30,481 --> 00:24:34,640
Speaker 5: October twenty one, there wasn't a missing person's case that

469
00:24:34,721 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 5: could be attached to that day. So it was a

470
00:24:37,321 --> 00:24:40,281
Speaker 5: day that you couldn't say this is for this person,

471
00:24:40,360 --> 00:24:41,881
Speaker 5: or this is for this person, this is for all

472
00:24:41,961 --> 00:24:44,761
Speaker 5: missing persons. So that's how that came about.

473
00:24:45,721 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 2: So you mentioned before you have a great team or

474
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,281
Speaker 2: great community. Tell us a little bit about the people

475
00:24:51,321 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 2: who are in your space and what they do to

476
00:24:53,681 --> 00:24:54,161
Speaker 2: help out.

477
00:24:54,801 --> 00:24:56,961
Speaker 5: Yeah, So the first one I have to talk about

478
00:24:57,041 --> 00:25:00,281
Speaker 5: is Brad Gardam, who is my wingman. Brad's a super

479
00:25:00,281 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 5: intelligent guy who's been on the adelaide overcase as a

480
00:25:03,241 --> 00:25:06,721
Speaker 5: guy who was there on the scene that first evidence

481
00:25:06,801 --> 00:25:08,961
Speaker 5: was found at the peak and the dam, the barrels

482
00:25:08,961 --> 00:25:11,041
Speaker 5: that were found there, and Brad was the person who

483
00:25:11,120 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 5: contacted me about the efforts that were being made following

484
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 5: this Mulligan inquiry statement from Mark Trevor Marshall. He's been

485
00:25:18,120 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 5: along for the ride the whole way. He's a huge

486
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:25,521
Speaker 5: support for Susie and leave a light on. He's dedicated

487
00:25:25,761 --> 00:25:29,400
Speaker 5: the last fifteen years to this and he's just a

488
00:25:29,441 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 5: fantastic blake. So Carol Levy, she's one of our researchers now.

489
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 5: She is already in contact with Susie and working with

490
00:25:37,481 --> 00:25:40,401
Speaker 5: Susie on her Beaumont Children group on social media. When

491
00:25:40,441 --> 00:25:44,640
Speaker 5: Susie first got into the space of trying to build

492
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 5: a community of support for missing persons, she does it

493
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:53,041
Speaker 5: the great job, doing research on titles and chasing information

494
00:25:53,241 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 5: and she's also got a fantastic bullshit meter, so you know,

495
00:25:57,321 --> 00:25:59,801
Speaker 5: she'll call me out if I'm looking at a line

496
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,481
Speaker 5: of inquiry that just doesn't make sense, and she said,

497
00:26:02,481 --> 00:26:03,880
Speaker 5: you need to check this, you need to check that.

498
00:26:04,041 --> 00:26:08,681
Speaker 5: So Suri Westwater, South Australian based. As a high school girl,

499
00:26:08,761 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 5: she went to Campbetoun High. She actually met with Leslie

500
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,400
Speaker 5: Cathratcliffe as a schoolgirl and asked how she might be

501
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 5: able to help them, and that's something I only learned

502
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 5: this year, but I'll be working with Sharif for four

503
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,920
Speaker 5: or five six years. She does a great deal with

504
00:26:21,961 --> 00:26:25,521
Speaker 5: her ancestry and property title checks, very good at being

505
00:26:25,561 --> 00:26:28,961
Speaker 5: at a line up information that is helpful to us

506
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 5: as we go down to check out Leeds. Mandy. She

507
00:26:32,481 --> 00:26:35,120
Speaker 5: is a former cop and also a victim of an

508
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 5: abduction attempt of the person that we have central to

509
00:26:38,561 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 5: the case. This year, as we've stepped up into the

510
00:26:42,521 --> 00:26:46,041
Speaker 5: searching at Yatner and around the place, she's providing on

511
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,640
Speaker 5: ground support, some intelligence and she's been a big funder

512
00:26:49,681 --> 00:26:52,961
Speaker 5: of our work as well, so we're very appreciative of that.

513
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 5: And then there's a bunch of other people that come

514
00:26:55,761 --> 00:26:58,001
Speaker 5: from all walks of life. We've got plumbers, We've got

515
00:26:58,001 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 5: a foundry worker that comes and takes time out of

516
00:27:01,281 --> 00:27:04,961
Speaker 5: his leave to come and help us, people running excavators.

517
00:27:05,321 --> 00:27:07,561
Speaker 5: It's all volunteers. We've got farmers out there in the

518
00:27:07,561 --> 00:27:10,161
Speaker 5: mid North who are not only helping us but funding it.

519
00:27:10,801 --> 00:27:15,441
Speaker 5: I'm incredibly grateful for the community that we've built. There's

520
00:27:15,481 --> 00:27:18,400
Speaker 5: one well that we're digging, and yet no the farmer

521
00:27:18,441 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 5: came to us with information that he'd taken to police

522
00:27:20,681 --> 00:27:23,041
Speaker 5: and police had sort of showed some interest in it

523
00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 5: that never had they gone out there. We've dug fifty

524
00:27:26,281 --> 00:27:29,681
Speaker 5: feet down a well in his paddock and we're down

525
00:27:29,721 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 5: to the nineteen seventies. There's a bit more to go,

526
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 5: but that whole dig with some massive machinery, it is

527
00:27:37,001 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 5: a huge dig has been completely funded by farming family

528
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 5: out there at a time when they've gone through the

529
00:27:42,921 --> 00:27:46,360
Speaker 5: worst rout in the past one hundred years. When you

530
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 5: look at that commitment and that dedication, and I've got

531
00:27:49,441 --> 00:27:52,321
Speaker 5: to the community that we've moved out and around in

532
00:27:52,801 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 5: the Yatnauru community, they have been absolutely welcoming of us.

533
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,160
Speaker 5: And that's not something I ever got as a journalist

534
00:28:00,201 --> 00:28:02,361
Speaker 5: when I went out to do these sort of cases

535
00:28:02,441 --> 00:28:05,521
Speaker 5: and cover them. As a journalist. When you look at

536
00:28:05,561 --> 00:28:09,360
Speaker 5: some of this really horrendous and confronting stuff from a

537
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:14,120
Speaker 5: media perspective, typically the local communities shut you out and

538
00:28:14,241 --> 00:28:17,241
Speaker 5: don't want you there in their place. This community out

539
00:28:17,241 --> 00:28:19,321
Speaker 5: there has come to us with more information and keep

540
00:28:19,321 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 5: piling it on. So that's giving us also confidence that

541
00:28:21,721 --> 00:28:24,120
Speaker 5: we're on the right track because we haven't had anyone

542
00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:26,681
Speaker 5: put their hands up, no roadblocks as far as being

543
00:28:26,681 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 5: able to we're The only roadblock we did have was

544
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 5: getting police to get out there.

545
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's talk about Let's talk about South Australian

546
00:28:35,721 --> 00:28:41,121
Speaker 2: Police and your personal experience regarding the girls missing person's case.

547
00:28:42,081 --> 00:28:46,161
Speaker 5: It has been a mixed bag for us. We feel

548
00:28:46,241 --> 00:28:48,161
Speaker 5: that we start to get some confidence in people that

549
00:28:48,361 --> 00:28:50,521
Speaker 5: a detective or a person leaning the case is doing

550
00:28:50,561 --> 00:28:54,561
Speaker 5: something and trying, and then they're replaced. I've dealt with

551
00:28:54,761 --> 00:28:58,601
Speaker 5: at least five different lead detectives in the Adelaide Oval

552
00:28:58,841 --> 00:29:02,801
Speaker 5: abduction of jo Anne and Kirsty, and that's since twenty eleven,

553
00:29:03,361 --> 00:29:06,121
Speaker 5: and more so in recent times. We go back to

554
00:29:06,121 --> 00:29:09,321
Speaker 5: squea one each time that we get there where you

555
00:29:09,441 --> 00:29:13,081
Speaker 5: need to talk about what you've found and update them,

556
00:29:13,121 --> 00:29:15,041
Speaker 5: and they don't give you much to go on either

557
00:29:15,081 --> 00:29:18,961
Speaker 5: whether they're aware of what you're talking about. Certainly don't

558
00:29:19,001 --> 00:29:21,921
Speaker 5: give you any indication of whether they believe you or

559
00:29:21,961 --> 00:29:24,121
Speaker 5: don't believe you, or they'll put their faith in a

560
00:29:24,201 --> 00:29:27,881
Speaker 5: group of citizen investigators. But there's also been some really

561
00:29:27,881 --> 00:29:32,921
Speaker 5: concerning incidents. We've had items very much so considered forensic

562
00:29:33,001 --> 00:29:39,641
Speaker 5: evidence destroyed without being tested or lost. And currently at

563
00:29:39,641 --> 00:29:42,881
Speaker 5: the moment, we've got a bone which is with South

564
00:29:42,921 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 5: Australian Police which they compelled me to hand over to them,

565
00:29:45,761 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 5: which we found at the Yatna site, which are forensic

566
00:29:48,321 --> 00:29:53,601
Speaker 5: anatomist Martia Henneberg, who's worked across police jurisdictions in South Africa,

567
00:29:53,881 --> 00:29:58,161
Speaker 5: in the US and here in Australia. He's very highly credentialed.

568
00:29:58,401 --> 00:30:01,601
Speaker 5: He believes that the bone we have found is a

569
00:30:01,601 --> 00:30:05,881
Speaker 5: piece of juvenile human pelvis. He's strongly leaves that too,

570
00:30:06,481 --> 00:30:10,121
Speaker 5: but the absolute confirmation comes with DNA testing. South Australian

571
00:30:10,161 --> 00:30:12,161
Speaker 5: Police have asked me to hand that over. On July

572
00:30:12,281 --> 00:30:14,561
Speaker 5: twenty six, I handed it over to them and it

573
00:30:14,681 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 5: has been sent into state for its testing. We haven't

574
00:30:17,441 --> 00:30:19,401
Speaker 5: been made aware of where it's even been sent.

575
00:30:20,241 --> 00:30:23,881
Speaker 2: I saw you post something about eighty days. Tell us

576
00:30:23,881 --> 00:30:26,201
Speaker 2: about what you were saying in that post.

577
00:30:26,881 --> 00:30:29,561
Speaker 5: Yeah, so that eighty days is only my deadline in

578
00:30:29,601 --> 00:30:35,561
Speaker 5: my mind is in twenty twenty four, I took a

579
00:30:35,681 --> 00:30:39,441
Speaker 5: sample of the barrels which have been previously tested by

580
00:30:39,481 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 5: South Australian Police. We've offered to take these barrels which

581
00:30:44,201 --> 00:30:47,561
Speaker 5: were found in two thousand and nine, contained traces of

582
00:30:47,601 --> 00:30:50,441
Speaker 5: blood and aid by the South Australian Police forensics unit

583
00:30:50,641 --> 00:30:54,601
Speaker 5: themselves and cross checked by members of the private investigation

584
00:30:54,681 --> 00:30:57,601
Speaker 5: team that first found them. They cross checked that actually

585
00:30:57,601 --> 00:31:00,401
Speaker 5: with a vet, so they had some references there. They

586
00:31:00,401 --> 00:31:03,121
Speaker 5: found the same things. I took a sample of that

587
00:31:03,121 --> 00:31:07,681
Speaker 5: to police in because as far as I was aware,

588
00:31:07,761 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 5: they didn't have a sample of it, and by May seventh,

589
00:31:13,561 --> 00:31:17,921
Speaker 5: eighty days they had destroyed that without testing it. It

590
00:31:18,041 --> 00:31:21,641
Speaker 5: wasn't until the following year, so I gave them a year.

591
00:31:22,361 --> 00:31:25,881
Speaker 5: I asked for that back. It was receipted to me

592
00:31:26,161 --> 00:31:28,641
Speaker 5: to be returned to me should they not see any

593
00:31:29,161 --> 00:31:32,281
Speaker 5: need to continue with that as a piece of forensic evidence.

594
00:31:32,721 --> 00:31:35,561
Speaker 5: And that's what I learned that it had been destroyed.

595
00:31:35,641 --> 00:31:38,801
Speaker 5: So there was an internal investigation carried out by South

596
00:31:38,801 --> 00:31:41,601
Speaker 5: Australia Police as to how that got destroyed and the

597
00:31:41,641 --> 00:31:44,761
Speaker 5: circumstance of it. And I was offered an apology for

598
00:31:44,841 --> 00:31:47,841
Speaker 5: the destruction of the materials, but no real reason why

599
00:31:47,841 --> 00:31:50,561
Speaker 5: it was destroyed. It was a mistake doneing error.

600
00:31:51,441 --> 00:31:55,001
Speaker 2: And so your post the other day was at about

601
00:31:55,441 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 2: the barrel because I remember in Sydney seeing the vile

602
00:31:58,601 --> 00:32:01,681
Speaker 2: that was there and talking about it, and I know

603
00:32:01,721 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 2: there was lots of chat about taking it overseas because

604
00:32:05,241 --> 00:32:09,961
Speaker 2: in Australia, the DNA problem that it is, we don't

605
00:32:09,961 --> 00:32:13,641
Speaker 2: seem to have as good a techniques as they do overseas.

606
00:32:14,001 --> 00:32:17,801
Speaker 5: We did send a sample of the barrels overseas at

607
00:32:17,801 --> 00:32:20,121
Speaker 5: that time from Sydney. They were sent over there. We

608
00:32:20,241 --> 00:32:26,041
Speaker 5: got inconclusive return results from that, so I'm not sure

609
00:32:26,321 --> 00:32:29,881
Speaker 5: how that went about, but we wouldn't get any results back. Really,

610
00:32:30,121 --> 00:32:33,121
Speaker 5: we got told what wasn't in there, and it wasn't

611
00:32:33,161 --> 00:32:35,521
Speaker 5: what should be in a fuel barrel, so there wasn't

612
00:32:35,921 --> 00:32:39,561
Speaker 5: any traces of fuel or anything like that. But basically

613
00:32:39,641 --> 00:32:41,521
Speaker 5: we said we got back we don't know what this

614
00:32:41,681 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 5: is and that.

615
00:32:42,481 --> 00:32:44,321
Speaker 2: Would have cost you a lot of money as well.

616
00:32:44,481 --> 00:32:48,001
Speaker 2: It's expensive to send things overseas and a very expensive Yeah.

617
00:32:48,041 --> 00:32:49,921
Speaker 5: So that's the other thing with the bone that we

618
00:32:50,081 --> 00:32:54,441
Speaker 5: found at Yatna, I did, at the advice of Marchie Henneberg,

619
00:32:54,721 --> 00:32:58,161
Speaker 5: we did try to get that tested independently in Adelaide

620
00:32:58,241 --> 00:33:00,801
Speaker 5: through the Adelaide University we didn't get a response from

621
00:33:00,881 --> 00:33:04,321
Speaker 5: MARCHI he approached his colleagues in that field, and he

622
00:33:04,441 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 5: was quite appointed that they would not respond to him.

623
00:33:08,161 --> 00:33:12,321
Speaker 5: This includes some of the people that he trained. It

624
00:33:12,401 --> 00:33:16,041
Speaker 5: was quite disappointed that we didn't have that opportunity. Under

625
00:33:16,281 --> 00:33:19,761
Speaker 5: March's advice, he said to take some cuttings of the

626
00:33:19,801 --> 00:33:23,561
Speaker 5: bone and provide that to different outlets so we could

627
00:33:23,801 --> 00:33:27,841
Speaker 5: actually correlate results. It was our minds, in our minds

628
00:33:27,841 --> 00:33:31,361
Speaker 5: to send a section of that bone to the US

629
00:33:31,481 --> 00:33:34,721
Speaker 5: for testing, and that process was being undertaken when I

630
00:33:34,761 --> 00:33:38,561
Speaker 5: was compelled by South Australian Police to hand over each

631
00:33:38,601 --> 00:33:41,041
Speaker 5: and every part of the bone. I was not to

632
00:33:41,081 --> 00:33:46,041
Speaker 5: send overseas, and I followed their request.

633
00:33:47,681 --> 00:33:49,801
Speaker 2: And look, I get it, but I find it really

634
00:33:49,881 --> 00:33:53,761
Speaker 2: frustrating that, especially when they destroyed the evidence that you've

635
00:33:53,801 --> 00:33:56,801
Speaker 2: just handed over. I mean, that's just heartbreaking for me

636
00:33:56,921 --> 00:33:59,681
Speaker 2: and probably everyone listening as well, to think that they

637
00:33:59,681 --> 00:34:03,561
Speaker 2: wouldn't just test it and they wouldn't treasure that information

638
00:34:04,321 --> 00:34:06,521
Speaker 2: like I mean, this could solve the case of two

639
00:34:06,641 --> 00:34:10,281
Speaker 2: missing little girls and they lose the evidence. That's that's

640
00:34:10,401 --> 00:34:11,601
Speaker 2: very hardhilled to swallow.

641
00:34:12,681 --> 00:34:15,041
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was, but I will say that there was

642
00:34:15,681 --> 00:34:20,201
Speaker 5: absolute reason for me to hand everything over make it

643
00:34:20,241 --> 00:34:22,481
Speaker 5: available to them, at least, as I said, I followed

644
00:34:22,481 --> 00:34:26,121
Speaker 5: their request. It was a South Australian Police force asking

645
00:34:26,161 --> 00:34:29,041
Speaker 5: me to hand over something or compelling me to hand

646
00:34:29,081 --> 00:34:31,481
Speaker 5: over something, and there was a requirement of me to

647
00:34:31,681 --> 00:34:34,801
Speaker 5: follow their requests. And I'll probably leave it at the

648
00:34:34,801 --> 00:34:39,121
Speaker 5: best I can. But it is frustrating and it's hard.

649
00:34:39,161 --> 00:34:42,521
Speaker 5: We talk about fight like Jay and being brave, and

650
00:34:42,601 --> 00:34:45,841
Speaker 5: I think I'm reasonably brave, but there's some outcomes that

651
00:34:46,441 --> 00:34:50,241
Speaker 5: I'm not willing to put myself into because i also

652
00:34:50,321 --> 00:34:50,961
Speaker 5: have a family.

653
00:34:51,161 --> 00:34:54,641
Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's talk about where you guys are at

654
00:34:54,681 --> 00:34:55,401
Speaker 2: now in your search.

655
00:34:55,961 --> 00:34:59,601
Speaker 5: We have been asked by South Australian Police to it

656
00:34:59,641 --> 00:35:03,601
Speaker 5: was a request to not return to that site where

657
00:35:03,641 --> 00:35:07,601
Speaker 5: we have found stuff. Police there every step of the way.

658
00:35:08,401 --> 00:35:12,681
Speaker 5: We are still digging, but we're digging with the written

659
00:35:12,721 --> 00:35:16,641
Speaker 5: material and some of these following up other leads and

660
00:35:16,721 --> 00:35:20,721
Speaker 5: people to gain information. So we're building the picture of

661
00:35:21,001 --> 00:35:25,841
Speaker 5: who is responsible for the abduction of Joanne and Kersti

662
00:35:25,881 --> 00:35:27,961
Speaker 5: and we feel very strongly about that we're on the

663
00:35:28,041 --> 00:35:32,681
Speaker 5: right track there. I am collating and coordinating information and

664
00:35:32,721 --> 00:35:35,761
Speaker 5: also other people who are coming forward with information all

665
00:35:35,761 --> 00:35:39,281
Speaker 5: the time and interviewing to get their stories down. It's

666
00:35:39,321 --> 00:35:40,521
Speaker 5: been pretty busy that way.

667
00:35:41,121 --> 00:35:42,681
Speaker 1: And are they coming on your podcast?

668
00:35:43,081 --> 00:35:45,601
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, yeah, people are coming on my podcast and

669
00:35:45,681 --> 00:35:50,801
Speaker 5: giving real information from the outset. So we have taken

670
00:35:51,001 --> 00:35:54,241
Speaker 5: some considerable steps in the last two months to find

671
00:35:54,281 --> 00:35:58,721
Speaker 5: some hard in your hands evidence that supports the theory

672
00:35:58,801 --> 00:36:03,241
Speaker 5: that these people responsible for this crime had been given

673
00:36:03,321 --> 00:36:06,921
Speaker 5: some leeway to do what they did, which is probably

674
00:36:06,921 --> 00:36:09,961
Speaker 5: another reason why we can be very clear about the

675
00:36:10,001 --> 00:36:12,801
Speaker 5: statement that was made to the Mulligan Inquiry. Now Mulligan

676
00:36:12,921 --> 00:36:17,801
Speaker 5: Inquiry afforded those people that came forward anonymity and amnesty

677
00:36:17,801 --> 00:36:22,201
Speaker 5: from prosecution. Nothing from what was said in the interviews

678
00:36:22,201 --> 00:36:25,241
Speaker 5: and the statements provided to the Mullet Inquiry could be

679
00:36:25,281 --> 00:36:30,361
Speaker 5: acted on to prosecute anyone. What has been written into

680
00:36:30,401 --> 00:36:34,761
Speaker 5: this Marshall's statement is that there were at the time

681
00:36:35,241 --> 00:36:39,001
Speaker 5: some police officers with knowledge and involvement in the crime

682
00:36:39,561 --> 00:36:43,761
Speaker 5: and in other light crimes. So of the thought that

683
00:36:44,201 --> 00:36:47,041
Speaker 5: South Australian Police aren't going to be very keen to

684
00:36:47,161 --> 00:36:50,401
Speaker 5: look at something that might expose some of their previous

685
00:36:50,401 --> 00:36:53,681
Speaker 5: members as having involvement in that it's not a great look,

686
00:36:53,761 --> 00:36:57,161
Speaker 5: is it. And I'm really hopeful that it's not the case,

687
00:36:57,201 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 5: to be honest, only because there would be a great

688
00:37:00,001 --> 00:37:02,441
Speaker 5: deal of confidence lost in our police force. And I

689
00:37:02,441 --> 00:37:05,321
Speaker 5: don't think as a society that's a good thing at all. Like,

690
00:37:05,561 --> 00:37:08,321
Speaker 5: I have respect for our police. They do a tough

691
00:37:08,401 --> 00:37:10,521
Speaker 5: job and go to keep doing it. And I know

692
00:37:10,561 --> 00:37:12,441
Speaker 5: there's been some bad apples in the past and the

693
00:37:12,721 --> 00:37:16,641
Speaker 5: like taking the police's reputation or the confidence that the

694
00:37:16,681 --> 00:37:18,761
Speaker 5: public have in that isn't the outcome that we want.

695
00:37:18,961 --> 00:37:21,041
Speaker 5: We just want to get the answers in the case.

696
00:37:21,961 --> 00:37:23,681
Speaker 2: I've always said, you know, there's a lot of things

697
00:37:23,681 --> 00:37:27,121
Speaker 2: that have happened that even the coroner has said quite

698
00:37:27,161 --> 00:37:30,481
Speaker 2: bluntly about my mum's case and the failings with police.

699
00:37:30,521 --> 00:37:33,561
Speaker 2: But I'm all about moving forward. Let's just move forward

700
00:37:33,601 --> 00:37:36,241
Speaker 2: and try and get better results and do better. You know,

701
00:37:36,281 --> 00:37:40,161
Speaker 2: if something has happened, let's make it better by working harder.

702
00:37:40,241 --> 00:37:42,681
Speaker 2: Don't sit there and tell families that you've got to

703
00:37:42,721 --> 00:37:46,721
Speaker 2: prioritize other families over yours. And you know, so we

704
00:37:46,761 --> 00:37:49,081
Speaker 2: all just need to work together and do the right

705
00:37:49,121 --> 00:37:50,521
Speaker 2: thing to help solve these cases.

706
00:37:51,161 --> 00:37:54,041
Speaker 5: Yeah. So something we've been doing. Since March to this year,

707
00:37:54,041 --> 00:37:58,001
Speaker 5: we've had an independent observational documentary maker that's followed out

708
00:37:58,041 --> 00:38:00,521
Speaker 5: every step in our search efforts, and we're looking at

709
00:38:00,601 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 5: to produce documentary film about Adelaide's missing persons these sorts

710
00:38:05,481 --> 00:38:09,001
Speaker 5: of cases that's completely independent there following what we do.

711
00:38:09,681 --> 00:38:12,841
Speaker 5: And I think, for me, I'm okay with being wrong

712
00:38:13,161 --> 00:38:16,161
Speaker 5: about this lead. So I'm okay standing in front of

713
00:38:16,241 --> 00:38:18,961
Speaker 5: a camera or being filmed in our every move and

714
00:38:19,041 --> 00:38:22,441
Speaker 5: being shown well, that's not right, it's not true at

715
00:38:22,521 --> 00:38:25,081
Speaker 5: least when it comes out. People can make up their

716
00:38:25,081 --> 00:38:27,641
Speaker 5: own minds. If there's not an outcome, people can make

717
00:38:27,681 --> 00:38:29,521
Speaker 5: up their own minds whether we're on the right track

718
00:38:29,601 --> 00:38:33,201
Speaker 5: or of the track. And that's a little bit about

719
00:38:33,241 --> 00:38:36,201
Speaker 5: what Sleepers is as well. I don't cover it. It's

720
00:38:36,321 --> 00:38:39,401
Speaker 5: very raw. We get a lot of complaints about the audios.

721
00:38:39,481 --> 00:38:42,801
Speaker 5: They good, but these are interviews that are done in

722
00:38:42,841 --> 00:38:45,881
Speaker 5: the now, and I get the trust of people when

723
00:38:46,281 --> 00:38:48,561
Speaker 5: I'm asking them, can I record you in the first

724
00:38:48,561 --> 00:38:49,321
Speaker 5: moment we speak.

725
00:38:49,881 --> 00:38:51,921
Speaker 2: I mean, we had similar things with the Lady Vanishers,

726
00:38:51,921 --> 00:38:53,761
Speaker 2: Like we were sitting at a busy coffee shop and

727
00:38:53,801 --> 00:38:56,281
Speaker 2: you could hear the froffing the milk in the background.

728
00:38:56,281 --> 00:38:58,681
Speaker 2: But I'm like, that's real, guys, that's actually where we are.

729
00:38:58,761 --> 00:39:01,561
Speaker 2: We're sitting in the UK. But I mean, you played

730
00:39:01,561 --> 00:39:05,481
Speaker 2: a snippet of the documentary for us last week and

731
00:39:05,961 --> 00:39:09,241
Speaker 2: my heart just burst into a million pieces. It's so

732
00:39:09,481 --> 00:39:13,441
Speaker 2: raw and it's so real and confronting actually as well.

733
00:39:13,561 --> 00:39:17,841
Speaker 2: But you know, it's probably what drives people like yourself

734
00:39:18,001 --> 00:39:20,881
Speaker 2: and like me to keep fighting for the answers because

735
00:39:21,121 --> 00:39:22,241
Speaker 2: we need to find the truth.

736
00:39:22,761 --> 00:39:25,041
Speaker 5: Yeah, so we are about fighting the truth. I'm not

737
00:39:25,081 --> 00:39:29,561
Speaker 5: about shutting people down. I need to have evidence to believe.

738
00:39:30,281 --> 00:39:31,681
Speaker 5: You've got to find it, so you've got to go

739
00:39:31,721 --> 00:39:33,921
Speaker 5: out and look for that evidence. Yeah, it's not that

740
00:39:34,001 --> 00:39:37,921
Speaker 5: I don't believe people that. It just makes it stronger

741
00:39:38,601 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 5: if you've got something that you can hold in your hand.

742
00:39:40,801 --> 00:39:44,161
Speaker 5: So that's why we go pretty hard with it and say, well,

743
00:39:44,481 --> 00:39:46,601
Speaker 5: we can't really just put people with stories that we

744
00:39:46,641 --> 00:39:48,361
Speaker 5: need to link it back to something and see that

745
00:39:48,401 --> 00:39:52,161
Speaker 5: it is real. And if we can put ten people's

746
00:39:52,201 --> 00:39:54,881
Speaker 5: stories or one hundred people's stories together where there's a

747
00:39:54,921 --> 00:39:57,721
Speaker 5: little bit of realness and something that you can visualize

748
00:39:57,801 --> 00:40:02,521
Speaker 5: or see that can't be argued against, like a boat.

749
00:40:03,641 --> 00:40:06,521
Speaker 5: Then together that stuff, I can probably find an answer

750
00:40:06,521 --> 00:40:11,721
Speaker 5: in these cases that Mark Marshall's story alone doesn't solve

751
00:40:11,761 --> 00:40:12,161
Speaker 5: the case.

752
00:40:13,681 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 2: Brian, tell me why you choose to do this work

753
00:40:16,001 --> 00:40:19,441
Speaker 2: helping others, and why is it important for you to

754
00:40:19,481 --> 00:40:20,241
Speaker 2: find the girls.

755
00:40:21,681 --> 00:40:24,041
Speaker 5: It is fairly simple for me. I made a promise

756
00:40:24,081 --> 00:40:26,761
Speaker 5: to Catherinatcliff that I do what I could to find

757
00:40:26,801 --> 00:40:30,561
Speaker 5: the answers, and I like to keep my promises. You know.

758
00:40:30,721 --> 00:40:33,281
Speaker 5: I always said that I don't mind being wrong, but

759
00:40:33,321 --> 00:40:35,601
Speaker 5: what if I'm right? Yeah, And I said that to

760
00:40:35,601 --> 00:40:38,841
Speaker 5: a police detective once. I was handing over a hat

761
00:40:38,921 --> 00:40:43,121
Speaker 5: that the key witness of the induction, Anthony Kilmartin, had

762
00:40:43,241 --> 00:40:45,521
Speaker 5: said to me when I showed it to him for

763
00:40:45,561 --> 00:40:47,721
Speaker 5: the first time when I met him for the first time.

764
00:40:47,761 --> 00:40:50,041
Speaker 5: It's one of those real in that I didn't have

765
00:40:50,081 --> 00:40:52,361
Speaker 5: a recording there. I didn't do that, but I was

766
00:40:52,361 --> 00:40:55,641
Speaker 5: sitting with him in a cafe in Villie's Cafe, and

767
00:40:55,641 --> 00:40:59,081
Speaker 5: I pulled his hat out and I showed him this hat,

768
00:40:59,161 --> 00:41:02,521
Speaker 5: and he went ghost white and started crying in a

769
00:41:02,601 --> 00:41:05,761
Speaker 5: packed cafe. He said, that's the hat. That's the hat

770
00:41:05,801 --> 00:41:09,161
Speaker 5: he was wearing. That hat belonged to Stan hart and

771
00:41:09,281 --> 00:41:11,681
Speaker 5: was found in stand hartz yat Nashak in two thousand

772
00:41:11,721 --> 00:41:15,681
Speaker 5: and eight. Police walk straight past it. It matches the

773
00:41:15,761 --> 00:41:19,041
Speaker 5: description that any witness has said from the outset. So

774
00:41:19,081 --> 00:41:21,761
Speaker 5: we've got a real witness, of validated witness from police

775
00:41:21,801 --> 00:41:24,161
Speaker 5: that was standing there of the day saying this is

776
00:41:24,161 --> 00:41:25,881
Speaker 5: a lead, this is what you have to look at.

777
00:41:26,601 --> 00:41:29,041
Speaker 5: I went the hand that hat over to major crime

778
00:41:29,081 --> 00:41:32,761
Speaker 5: detectives in the Victor Harbor police station and one of

779
00:41:32,801 --> 00:41:35,681
Speaker 5: them said to me, what if you're wrong? And my

780
00:41:35,761 --> 00:41:38,761
Speaker 5: responsor was, what if I'm right? What if we've got

781
00:41:38,761 --> 00:41:42,361
Speaker 5: something here and we don't do this? You know? So

782
00:41:42,441 --> 00:41:46,801
Speaker 5: that's kind of what pushes me along. So I don't

783
00:41:46,801 --> 00:41:50,001
Speaker 5: want to leave a stone unturned because what if it's

784
00:41:50,041 --> 00:41:53,121
Speaker 5: the stone that needs to be tanned. So that's what

785
00:41:53,241 --> 00:41:56,961
Speaker 5: drives me. Animals, stubborn bastard. So and I've met people,

786
00:41:57,161 --> 00:42:00,561
Speaker 5: not just Susie, but people like yourself with missing persons,

787
00:42:00,721 --> 00:42:04,801
Speaker 5: and I can't imagine. I talk to people and I

788
00:42:04,801 --> 00:42:08,121
Speaker 5: feel their grief and their heartache, and it gets to me.

789
00:42:08,881 --> 00:42:11,481
Speaker 5: I don't have a missing person, as you say, but

790
00:42:11,721 --> 00:42:14,401
Speaker 5: that doesn't mean that I don't love and care for

791
00:42:14,441 --> 00:42:16,321
Speaker 5: these people that I meet and come into my life.

792
00:42:16,361 --> 00:42:18,641
Speaker 5: They've come into my life for a reason. Susie is

793
00:42:18,721 --> 00:42:21,801
Speaker 5: like a sister to me, and were I called Josephs.

794
00:42:22,801 --> 00:42:25,681
Speaker 5: So they are my family. You know. The missing person's

795
00:42:25,681 --> 00:42:28,721
Speaker 5: community is my family. So I do have a missing

796
00:42:28,761 --> 00:42:31,361
Speaker 5: person in my life. It's all of them.

797
00:42:31,601 --> 00:42:34,481
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's why I wanted to invite you on

798
00:42:34,601 --> 00:42:39,121
Speaker 2: because I see that in you, and it's genuine care

799
00:42:39,281 --> 00:42:43,241
Speaker 2: and a genuine response that you give to me. As

800
00:42:43,281 --> 00:42:46,281
Speaker 2: someone who has lived experience. I see it in you,

801
00:42:46,321 --> 00:42:48,601
Speaker 2: and I get that you are with us and you

802
00:42:48,641 --> 00:42:52,481
Speaker 2: stand with us. I wanted to bring up the hashtag

803
00:42:52,521 --> 00:42:56,721
Speaker 2: we've got stickers on Sunday, actually the hashtag fight like Joe.

804
00:42:57,161 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 1: Tell me if I'm right.

805
00:42:58,761 --> 00:43:02,961
Speaker 2: Wasn't there some chat about evidence that had been provided

806
00:43:03,121 --> 00:43:07,041
Speaker 2: that Joanne showed such great bravery and she was pulling

807
00:43:07,081 --> 00:43:11,001
Speaker 2: on the gentleman who had Kirsty under his arm, and

808
00:43:11,081 --> 00:43:12,681
Speaker 2: she was, you know, I'm not letting her go, like

809
00:43:12,721 --> 00:43:15,841
Speaker 2: she could have just run away, but she stayed with Kirsty,

810
00:43:16,601 --> 00:43:19,961
Speaker 2: And therefore there was a bravery award or chat about

811
00:43:20,201 --> 00:43:23,241
Speaker 2: a bravery award being named for Joanne.

812
00:43:23,641 --> 00:43:27,441
Speaker 5: Yeah, there has been so the witness accounts not just

813
00:43:27,521 --> 00:43:31,761
Speaker 5: Anthony Kilmartin's but driven by his. But I believe are

814
00:43:31,801 --> 00:43:35,801
Speaker 5: there people who were witnesses or had relayed that witness

815
00:43:35,801 --> 00:43:40,921
Speaker 5: account to say that Joe struggled and fought and grabbed

816
00:43:40,921 --> 00:43:46,121
Speaker 5: and punched and kicked the abductor and has quite broadly

817
00:43:46,441 --> 00:43:51,601
Speaker 5: accepted that the target of the abduction was Kursey the younger,

818
00:43:52,121 --> 00:43:55,761
Speaker 5: But Joe had that responsibility of taking Cursey to the

819
00:43:55,841 --> 00:44:01,281
Speaker 5: toilet and would fight for her. Yeah, ultimately that led

820
00:44:01,321 --> 00:44:05,841
Speaker 5: to her being abducted as well. So idea of fight

821
00:44:06,001 --> 00:44:10,361
Speaker 5: like Joe. We've gone through a great deal over the

822
00:44:10,441 --> 00:44:15,161
Speaker 5: last decade and it's no secret that Susie and myself

823
00:44:15,201 --> 00:44:18,721
Speaker 5: and others we've thought about giving up and then we

824
00:44:18,801 --> 00:44:21,321
Speaker 5: find that fight, you know, and we'd always come back

825
00:44:21,321 --> 00:44:23,401
Speaker 5: to it. And I say, you know, you need to

826
00:44:23,441 --> 00:44:26,361
Speaker 5: fight like you. You need to fight Susie, and you

827
00:44:26,361 --> 00:44:29,321
Speaker 5: need to step back up again. And you know, as

828
00:44:29,361 --> 00:44:33,561
Speaker 5: we're going through, we're really taken aback in when we

829
00:44:33,601 --> 00:44:37,081
Speaker 5: first started up at Yatna Digging, when the South Australian

830
00:44:37,081 --> 00:44:42,521
Speaker 5: Police Commissioner Grant Stevens in a press conference put out

831
00:44:42,561 --> 00:44:46,681
Speaker 5: a message that we should not raise hope for families

832
00:44:47,761 --> 00:44:51,521
Speaker 5: that's where fight like Joe came back up, because that

833
00:44:51,601 --> 00:44:53,961
Speaker 5: didn't go down very well. And as you know, in

834
00:44:54,001 --> 00:44:57,201
Speaker 5: that space, hope is all their families have got hope

835
00:44:57,201 --> 00:44:59,361
Speaker 5: that there might be an answer come forward. There might

836
00:44:59,401 --> 00:45:01,721
Speaker 5: be someone come forward and let them know. So that's

837
00:45:01,761 --> 00:45:05,601
Speaker 5: about all they've got in a lot of circumstances. We

838
00:45:05,721 --> 00:45:08,361
Speaker 5: hit back with fighting words, and that's where a fight

839
00:45:08,441 --> 00:45:10,961
Speaker 5: Light Jay came from. We're going to fight, We're not

840
00:45:11,001 --> 00:45:11,561
Speaker 5: going to give.

841
00:45:11,441 --> 00:45:13,921
Speaker 2: Up hope, well hopefully, and maybe everyone can do a

842
00:45:13,921 --> 00:45:16,041
Speaker 2: hashtag fight like Joe and we can get some movement

843
00:45:16,081 --> 00:45:17,121
Speaker 2: happening on that and.

844
00:45:17,161 --> 00:45:18,281
Speaker 1: Get that Bravery Award.

845
00:45:19,121 --> 00:45:22,441
Speaker 2: I think that would be really something positive for Susie

846
00:45:22,441 --> 00:45:25,121
Speaker 2: and her family and everyone like yourself who are helping her.

847
00:45:25,121 --> 00:45:27,321
Speaker 2: And as you say, you're embedded in this so much

848
00:45:27,361 --> 00:45:30,561
Speaker 2: so now she's like your missing person in this space.

849
00:45:31,961 --> 00:45:36,881
Speaker 2: I always end these podcast episodes by asking my guests

850
00:45:37,041 --> 00:45:40,601
Speaker 2: to tell us why the missing matter? Can you tell

851
00:45:40,641 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 2: me why to you? Joe and Kirsty matter?

852
00:45:44,681 --> 00:45:47,641
Speaker 5: Yeah. Look, it's the same for any missing person. They

853
00:45:47,641 --> 00:45:51,041
Speaker 5: all do matter. If one or mine went missing, I

854
00:45:51,041 --> 00:45:54,721
Speaker 5: wouldn't stop searching for the answers. And as I said, earlier.

855
00:45:55,361 --> 00:45:58,241
Speaker 5: I love the people in our missing person's community, the families.

856
00:45:58,281 --> 00:46:00,641
Speaker 5: I see how they hurt and how they find strength

857
00:46:00,681 --> 00:46:03,281
Speaker 5: to keep going. They get her out each other, They

858
00:46:03,321 --> 00:46:05,721
Speaker 5: embrace each other through the good and the bad, and

859
00:46:05,881 --> 00:46:09,241
Speaker 5: to me, that's very special. That's something that I can

860
00:46:09,321 --> 00:46:12,841
Speaker 5: relate to. I've played team sports. I love my footy

861
00:46:12,841 --> 00:46:15,281
Speaker 5: teams and I love the camaraderie and the people that

862
00:46:15,321 --> 00:46:17,801
Speaker 5: we get around. And it's the same with the missing

863
00:46:17,801 --> 00:46:20,881
Speaker 5: person's community. We've got each other's backs and I'm not

864
00:46:20,921 --> 00:46:24,761
Speaker 5: about to walk out on good people who just want

865
00:46:24,801 --> 00:46:29,001
Speaker 5: to bring their love one same. So, yeah, that's what

866
00:46:29,161 --> 00:46:32,641
Speaker 5: drives me, and that's why they matter. Is it matters

867
00:46:32,641 --> 00:46:37,721
Speaker 5: to me because good people deserve to have answers and

868
00:46:37,761 --> 00:46:40,241
Speaker 5: if it's made for them. I saw at the leave

869
00:46:40,361 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 5: light on how they support each other. It's a good

870
00:46:44,001 --> 00:46:47,801
Speaker 5: part of terrible, terrible things. And we know that in

871
00:46:47,841 --> 00:46:53,601
Speaker 5: these cases. We prepare for the news to be confronting

872
00:46:53,681 --> 00:46:58,761
Speaker 5: and horrible about just how bad humans can be, and

873
00:46:58,801 --> 00:47:02,681
Speaker 5: the contrast to that is just how good humans can

874
00:47:02,721 --> 00:47:05,441
Speaker 5: be to each other in that space and support. Tell

875
00:47:05,521 --> 00:47:08,801
Speaker 5: us say, you know, there's two sides of the coin

876
00:47:08,881 --> 00:47:11,441
Speaker 5: on humanity. There I see. You know, we were dealing

877
00:47:11,481 --> 00:47:14,041
Speaker 5: with some very dark stuff, but there were dealing with

878
00:47:14,081 --> 00:47:19,561
Speaker 5: just a genuine warmth and love and good humans.

879
00:47:23,561 --> 00:47:28,841
Speaker 3: Next week on the Missing Matter. For more than three decades,

880
00:47:28,961 --> 00:47:32,681
Speaker 3: the disappearance of Bronwyn Winfield has haunted the small coastal

881
00:47:32,721 --> 00:47:38,201
Speaker 3: town of Lennox Head, a young mother, a sister, a daughter.

882
00:47:38,841 --> 00:47:42,601
Speaker 3: While the police suspected she was murdered and recommended the

883
00:47:42,641 --> 00:47:48,241
Speaker 3: prosecution of a known person, no conviction was made. Brown's

884
00:47:48,281 --> 00:47:52,521
Speaker 3: story is one that will never fade. In the next episode,

885
00:47:52,641 --> 00:47:57,601
Speaker 3: Sally sits down with Kim, Bronnie's half sister. Kim has

886
00:47:57,601 --> 00:48:01,801
Speaker 3: carried her sister's story with a quiet strength for years,

887
00:48:01,801 --> 00:48:08,921
Speaker 3: through frustration, heartbreak and hope. Up until now, She's not

888
00:48:09,041 --> 00:48:14,401
Speaker 3: spoken much before that's next time on the Missing Matter.