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Speaker 1: From the Australian. This is the weekend edition of The Front.

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Speaker 1: I'm Claire Harvey. Political chiefs of stuff are very powerful,

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Speaker 1: often kind of scary, individuals whose proximity to power can

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Speaker 1: blur with the exercise of their own very real influence.

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Speaker 1: Helping Nelson Mandela adjust to the modern world after three

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Speaker 1: decades in prison, navigating awkward palace politics, to smooth a

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Speaker 1: path for Tony Blair, secret meetings with rebel leaders, traveling

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Speaker 1: into war zones. These are the very duties of political

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Speaker 1: chiefs of staff. Who've spoken to Australian author Phoebe saint

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Speaker 1: Land Stocks for her new book The Right Hand. It

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Speaker 1: takes a close look at these second most powerful people

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Speaker 1: in the rooms where it happens. Today, Phoebe saint Land

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Speaker 1: Stocks is in conversation The Australian's liter editor Caroline Overington.

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Speaker 2: We're interrupting programs to tell you that Diana, Princess of

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Speaker 2: Wales is gravely ill in intensive care in Parace's Salpetrier

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Speaker 2: Hospital after being seriously injured in a car crash, which

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Speaker 2: very very tragic turn with confirmation from Buckingham Palace tonight

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Speaker 2: that the world has lost Princess Diana, at age thirty six,

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Speaker 2: dead in a car crash.

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Speaker 3: The Princess's body was brought home with royal ceremonial. Waiting

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Speaker 3: to receive it were the Prime Minister and the Defense Secretary.

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Speaker 4: Prime Minister, whose young family had met the princess and

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Speaker 4: her children recently paid an emotional tribute to her qualities.

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Speaker 1: Our thoughts and prayers are with Princess Diana's family, in

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Speaker 1: particular her two.

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Speaker 4: Sons, the two boys. Our hearts go out to them.

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Speaker 3: The Princess Diana died, Tony Blair blows away and they

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Speaker 3: couldn't wake him up.

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Speaker 1: This is author Phoebe Saint Elen Stalks recounting a conversation

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Speaker 1: with Jonathan Powell, former chief of staff to British Prime

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Speaker 1: Minister Tony Blair. When Princess Diana died in nineteen ninety seven,

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Speaker 1: it fell to political chief of staff Jonathan Powell to

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Speaker 1: get the news to his boss, UK Prime Minister Tony

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Speaker 1: Blair and deal with the immense outpouring of public grief

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Speaker 1: that followed. Blair released a famous statement describing Diana as

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Speaker 1: the People's Princess and spoke outside.

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Speaker 4: His local church.

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Speaker 1: Powell was closely involved in the days that followed, as

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Speaker 1: Blair urged the Queen to grasp and reflect the world's

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Speaker 1: grief at Diana's death, so.

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Speaker 3: They had to get a local police officer to break

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Speaker 3: in to the house that Blavlstager to wake him up overnight.

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Speaker 3: He is very open about his rocky relationship with the Queen.

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Speaker 3: Jonathan and the Queen didn't like each other to the

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Speaker 3: point where I think they read a dinner with like.

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Speaker 4: George Bush and George Bush after.

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Speaker 3: The dinner turned to Tony Blair and was like, what's

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Speaker 3: up with Jonathan and the Queen? And then he was

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Speaker 3: at bout Moral one time Jonathan and had brought his

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Speaker 3: girlfriend and the Queen's team found out that Jonathan and

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Speaker 3: his partner weren't married, and so they got pulled aside

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Speaker 3: one day and like you have to go home because

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Speaker 3: we don't want to send a bad message to Charles

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Speaker 3: and Camilla who weren't married. Obviously, Jonathan played a huge

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Speaker 3: role in what was happening with Ireland at the time. Also,

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Speaker 3: I mean a few of them had to have bomb

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Speaker 3: detectors on their cars, is just a regular thing. And

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Speaker 3: Jonathan had a story where he was like out one

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Speaker 3: week came with his family and the bomb detector alarm

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Speaker 3: went off, and so he called Tony being like, I

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Speaker 3: don't know what to do. What's the process now? And

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Speaker 3: Tony was just so busy and bought He's like, can

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Speaker 3: you just figure it out?

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Speaker 4: Like just keep driving. Ten minutes later Blair called again,

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Speaker 4: been like, but are you okay?

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Speaker 1: In her book The Right Hand, Saint Helen Stocks also

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Speaker 1: speaks to Nelson Mandela's former chief of staff, Barbara Masekella.

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Speaker 1: She's a revered political activist in her own right. Masekella

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Speaker 1: spent three decades in exile from South Africa and returned

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Speaker 1: to join Mandela as chief of staff in nineteen ninety

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Speaker 1: after he was released from twenty seven years as a

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Speaker 1: political prisoner. Let each one of you and all of

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Speaker 1: our people gave the animals of this and deperty no space.

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Speaker 2: To take us back to the dark bell.

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Speaker 3: Of a party.

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Speaker 1: Here's Caroline Overington.

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Speaker 5: It was interesting to me that, I mean, many of

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Speaker 5: the things that the chiefs of staff have told you

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Speaker 5: are fascinating, and in particular the smaller things like the

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Speaker 5: fact that Nelson Mandela used to because he missed the

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Speaker 5: whole credit card revolution, being in prison, used to still

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Speaker 5: carry around a small person we change to buy fruit

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Speaker 5: and other the small habits that people had.

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Speaker 3: I had each of them run through a day during

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Speaker 3: their time in office and kind of what that day

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Speaker 3: looked like. So Nelson Mandella, like what his chief of

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Speaker 3: staff says about him, you know, she jokes that he

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Speaker 3: was very vain and like that'd be late to events

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Speaker 3: because he'd be like looking in the mirror checking his hair,

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Speaker 3: and the impact that being in prison first thirty years

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Speaker 3: had on him, Like he was very disciplined with food.

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Speaker 5: It's just those tiny little stories.

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Speaker 3: You only get that from the people who were with

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Speaker 3: twenty four seven because in a way, they're they're seeing

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Speaker 3: the leader more than the leader's own family.

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Speaker 4: They're the stories that I love.

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Speaker 5: So many people go out and want to talk to

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Speaker 5: the person that they imagine is the most powerful, So

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Speaker 5: the leader or the managing director or the CEO, whatever

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Speaker 5: it might be. But you've gone behind the scenes to

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Speaker 5: the person behind the person. So tell me what prompted

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Speaker 5: your interest. I guess in the invisible people.

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Speaker 3: The hand, the right hand, yeah, behind the leader. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: like the people behind the people. So I've always been

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Speaker 3: interested in political dramas. I grew up watching The West Wing.

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Speaker 4: I always loved the characters, like the chief of staff. Well,

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Speaker 4: I've got a staff meaning to go to and so do.

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Speaker 2: You, you elitist Harvard fascist, missed the Dean's List two

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Speaker 2: semesters in a row, Yankee Jackass.

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Speaker 1: Feel better getting that off your chest, Theresa, I'm a

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Speaker 1: whole new woman.

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Speaker 3: And then I started out in corporate law. But then

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Speaker 3: I ended up in government and I was working in

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Speaker 3: camera at Prime Minister and Cabinet and it was at

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Speaker 3: a time when Scott Morrison was Prime Minister and a

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Speaker 3: few flowel documents that I'll be working on, There'll be

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Speaker 3: people at it from the Prime Minister's office and one

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Speaker 3: of them would often be Scott Row's chief of staff.

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Speaker 3: And that's when I became fascinated by the role, because

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Speaker 3: they're it always like as powerful as the world leader

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Speaker 3: they're working for, but we know nothing about them.

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Speaker 1: How good is Australia.

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Speaker 5: This is the best country in.

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Speaker 3: The world in which to live.

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Speaker 2: Can I own same and my own staff?

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Speaker 1: Can I thank the John Cauntle my children staff?

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Speaker 3: So that's when I first encountered real life chiefs of staff.

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Speaker 3: A few years on when I was running my media startup.

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Speaker 3: We've got a new follow up one day and it

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Speaker 3: was Justin Trudeau's longtime chief of staff, Katie Telford, and

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Speaker 3: we ended up messaging and chopped on a call, and

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Speaker 3: it was.

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Speaker 4: Just the way she spoke about Justin Trudeau.

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Speaker 3: I just found so funny and unique because in a

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Speaker 3: way they're best friends and they're being said to communicate

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Speaker 3: via like eye contact alone.

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Speaker 5: So you're a young woman and a lawyer and you're

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Speaker 5: working in camber and you're coming across the chiefs of

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Speaker 5: staff and you're learning about what goes on in the

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Speaker 5: back corridors, what goes on in the private offices. It's

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Speaker 5: not what we see on the TV, but what actually

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Speaker 5: goes on in Palman House, and you become fascinated. But

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Speaker 5: you've got another interest bubbling away that becomes missing perspectives. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: which is your startup. You're a young entrepreneurship, so tell

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Speaker 5: us about that.

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Speaker 3: So I was working in camera of living with the

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Speaker 3: political correspondent for Channel seven who was working in the

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Speaker 3: press gallery and she was a young woman around my age,

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Speaker 3: so we were flatmates and I think it missic perspectives

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Speaker 3: kind of came out of conversations with her where she

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Speaker 3: was a young woman working in media. I was a

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Speaker 3: young woman working in politics. There came a date when

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Speaker 3: I just thought it'd be awesome to have a newsroom

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Speaker 3: to just publish reporting from young women who also didn't

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Speaker 3: necessarily have to be journalists, who just wanted to write.

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Speaker 3: So I started a blog and then it just started growing,

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Speaker 3: and then we got on the radar of Sarah Harden,

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Speaker 3: who's an Australian who is a CEO of Hallow Sunshine

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Speaker 3: or was then, and she connected us with Freezee the

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Speaker 3: Spoon's team, and then we actually woke up one morning

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Speaker 3: and Reese with the Spiron had promoted us on our

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Speaker 3: Instagram and that was like the turning point for us.

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Speaker 3: And it's funny like thirty percent of our audience today

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Speaker 3: is still from the US because of that. Since then,

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Speaker 3: we've just evolved into a media company platforming content from

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Speaker 3: young female content creators reporters, and we're now reaching nine

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Speaker 3: million people months across like all our platforms, and.

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Speaker 5: It's a wonderful success. So you then went back to

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Speaker 5: your original interest, which was chiefs of staff, and started

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Speaker 5: to wonder what would it be like to talk to

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Speaker 5: more of these people, and when they talked to you,

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Speaker 5: did they give you any indication as to why they

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Speaker 5: had agreed? Was it and was part of it that

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Speaker 5: they wanted to sort of demystify this mysterious backroom role.

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Speaker 3: A few of them have recently stepped down from the role,

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Speaker 3: and so I think they finally felt that they were

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Speaker 3: able to speak publicly. But honestly, I think a lot

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Speaker 3: of them just loved the idea because the attention is

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Speaker 3: obviously on their boss, and I think this was finally

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Speaker 3: about what happens behind the scenes. I had been trying

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Speaker 3: to track down Mandela's chief of stuff for a really

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Speaker 3: long time, and when she finally emailed me one night,

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Speaker 3: her note kind of said, you know a lot of

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Speaker 3: people who want to interview me, it's always about Mandela.

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Speaker 4: But I love that your series focuses.

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Speaker 3: On us who work behind the scenes and perfectly encapsulated

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Speaker 3: the project.

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Speaker 1: Coming up more of Caroline's conversation with Phoebe Saint Helen Stocks.

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Speaker 5: Was part of your motivation to encourage young women to

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Speaker 5: get involved in politics, either forward facing or in the

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Speaker 5: back room.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, I really saw it as a call to

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Speaker 3: action to show everyone really that leadership kind of expand

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Speaker 3: the remit of leadership and show the roles that are

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Speaker 3: often in the wings and not necessarily on the podium.

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Speaker 5: And you've also got the flip side. You've got men

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Speaker 5: working for female leaders.

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Speaker 3: That's why it was so fascinating listening to just cindare

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Speaker 3: Dance chief of staff raj and Julia Gillard's chief of staff,

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Speaker 3: Ben about what it was like supporting female leaders, but

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Speaker 3: as a male chief of staff too, and I mean

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Speaker 3: in a.

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Speaker 4: Way, their experiences were very different.

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Speaker 3: I mean, both men were shocked by the level of

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Speaker 3: misogyny that their bosses faced in the media. Both said

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Speaker 3: that it even took them back even though they knew

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Speaker 3: it was going to be bad. But I think the

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Speaker 3: difference was that just Center, New Zealand had already had

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Speaker 3: women as prime minister before just Cinda, but obviously Gillard

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Speaker 3: here was the first. So I think Ben, her chief

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Speaker 3: of staff, was canted about how they would have to

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Speaker 3: really choose when to comment, when to address stuff that

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Speaker 3: was happening in the news that was based on her gender,

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Speaker 3: whereas Just Center's team were very much more like they

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Speaker 3: called things out as it happened.

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Speaker 5: There were also moments that I've found very difficult to read. So,

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Speaker 5: for example, Ben Hubbard is that Julia Gillard's chief of

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Speaker 5: stuff had to tell her what was on the misogyny menu.

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Speaker 5: So for listeners who perhaps don't remember, a menu for

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Speaker 5: a fundraiser went around and it described Julia Gillard in

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Speaker 5: the most grotesque terms, and it was meant to be amusing,

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Speaker 5: but it was in fact extremely derogatory. It had become

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Speaker 5: a news story, the fact that this menu was out

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Speaker 5: there and he had to tell her.

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Speaker 4: He had to tell her.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's where a lot of some joked in a

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Speaker 3: way and said, when there's good news for a world leader,

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Speaker 3: someone's already told them, Like the chief of stuff navigets

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Speaker 3: to share the good news, like it's always the bad news.

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Speaker 4: And I think that's where trust plays such.

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Speaker 3: An important role, because you really need to have the

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Speaker 3: trust of your leader to be able to have those

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Speaker 3: difficul conversations.

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Speaker 1: Phoebe Saint alan Stock's new book The Right Hand, published

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Speaker 1: by Penguin, is available now. Santa lan Stocks was interviewed

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Speaker 1: by the Australians literated at Caroline Overington. You can read

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Speaker 1: Caroline's article on the Right Hand right now in the

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Speaker 1: Australians newly launched culture section, either in print or online

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Speaker 1: at the Australian dot com dot au slash Culture. This

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Speaker 1: episode of the Front was hosted by me Claire Harvey

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Speaker 1: and produced by Jasper Leek. Thanks for joining us on

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Speaker 1: the Front this week. Our team also includes Kristin Amiot,

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Speaker 1: le At Sammaglu, Tiffany Dimak, Joshua Burton and Stephanie Coombs.