WEBVTT - Inside the mind of a serial killer: Dr. Ann Burgess Pt.2 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.039 detective sy aside of life. The average person is never 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.119 exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.320 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:48.160 Welcome back to part two of my chat with doctor 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:51.800 an Bergers, who is a legend amongst law enforcement agencies 0:00:51.800 --> 0:00:55.840 across the globe, particularly with those detectives responsible for investigating 0:00:55.920 --> 0:00:59.440 murders and serial offenders. If you miss part one, we're 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:03.000 talking about how doctor Burger's skills developed as a psychiatric 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:06.480 nurse and evolved into her working with the FBI, developing 0:01:06.480 --> 0:01:09.520 a process of understanding the mind of serial killers and 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:14.160 profiling criminals in order to understand and most importantly, catch killers. 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:16.720 Doctor an Burgers, Welcome. 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:18.840 Back, Welcome, glad to be back. 0:01:19.400 --> 0:01:22.080 Okay, At the risk of embarrassing myself, I'm going to 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:24.959 let you into a little little secret here. Early in 0:01:25.000 --> 0:01:29.119 my career as a homicide detective, I'd read John Douglas's 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:33.760 book Mind Hunter, and quite often myself and my partner 0:01:33.800 --> 0:01:36.840 at the time, Paul Jacob, we'd be standing at murder 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:40.399 scenes going what would John Douglas do in this situation? 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:45.440 In that what I liked about it, and bearing in 0:01:45.480 --> 0:01:48.640 mind we're talking thirty years ago. I'd read the book 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:51.560 but what I took away from it was you've got 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:54.320 to be proactive in the way that you approach an investigation. 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:58.920 And I see failings of homicide investigations. I see where 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:02.320 people saw the stand, they gather the evidence, everyone's trying 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:05.160 to solve the murder, but they're not proactive in their 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:08.880 thinking and the way of initiating things happening in the 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:13.960 crime scene. And I remember, like John Douglas away that 0:02:14.240 --> 0:02:16.840 or the things that I picked up from that book 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:21.960 and other literature that i'd read at the time, was 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:25.239 about the strategy that's required when dealing with the media, 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:29.200 because most killers, and this is in my experience, do 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:31.480 listen to the media, and when they've committed a crime, 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:34.840 they're fascinated. And back in the day it was the 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:39.440 front page paper or the evening news when stories were broken, 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:43.000 they'd be fascinated by what the detectives were saying. And 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:46.600 my biggest criticism of police and the use of media 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:49.239 is where I see someone standing there at police officer, 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:53.160 usually a senior police officer, standing there going We've got 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:56.920 no idea what's happened. There's no witnesses, there's no forensic 0:02:57.000 --> 0:02:59.240 evidence and whatever. And I'm thinking, if I was a crook, 0:02:59.280 --> 0:03:02.280 if I was a suss go, I'd be sitting there going, yes, great, 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:04.240 if I keep my mouth shut, I get away of it. 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:08.080 What's your thoughts on strategies and the use of the 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:11.000 media when you're investigating investigating crimes. 0:03:11.639 --> 0:03:14.720 Well, we looked into this, and interestingly enough, when you 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:17.920 go way back to Jaker Hoover, who was one of 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:21.000 the first directors of the FBI, one of the things 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:24.640 he felt very strongly that he wanted to make a 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:29.560 wanted to influence the media. He had several of his 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:34.240 agents assigned to that task, and what they would do 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:37.680 is to play to the media. They would send if 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:41.240 they knew a birthday or an anniversary, they'd send cards, 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:46.320 they said, always would say things. So they really use 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:50.520 the media in a very positive way. And he knew 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:53.640 that the way that the media portrayed them had a 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:58.960 lot to do with their public approval, so that was 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:02.200 very useful. So that's where I would say that John 0:04:02.240 --> 0:04:05.560 Douglas really and Bob Rustler knew how to play the 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:08.880 media and felt that that was very important in any 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:14.440 kind of a an investigation they were doing. That was 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:17.279 one I would say one of them, and John was 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:21.040 very good at being able to engage the media and 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:24.960 to you know, get the information out, so the media 0:04:25.000 --> 0:04:27.720 felt a part of it. It was really having them 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:32.000 work with them. They realized they couldn't catch suspects all 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:35.279 by themselves sometimes so that they had to that and 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:38.440 that John Joe Barcase was an excellent example of that, 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:42.560 where they made it very clear that the community had 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:46.000 to all be on board to catch this this person. 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:49.320 So that's one of their story. I think that's one 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:52.440 of their strongest points that the two agents had and 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:56.760 they taught that to their junior ones coming along. 0:04:57.200 --> 0:04:59.640 Yeah, well, I you said, I'm just trying to think 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:03.640 of examples that used the media. And a high profile 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:06.960 case I was investigating, it's still unsolved and it basically 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:10.360 cost me my career was the abduction of three year 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:12.920 old William Tyrell, a young boy dressed in a spider 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:18.040 Man suit, from his grandparents' house on a small rural 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:22.400 town dead end street ten years ago. This crime occurred 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:25.760 when I took over the investigation. This was sort of 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:29.440 five months after his disappearance. A couple of things that 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:32.800 I did. I made a call that when I took 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:35.720 it over, I said, it's a homicide lead investigation because 0:05:35.720 --> 0:05:39.000 there was speculation that was missing adventure. I wanted to 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:43.720 put pressure on the perpetrator by it's homicide. Looking at 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:45.280 it now, we're not looking at We're not going to 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:49.320 forget about this. And there weren't that many places in there, 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:51.680 So I said, anyone that was in a square kilometer 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:53.960 and had a map of the area from where William 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:58.880 disappeared that now hasn't come forward, I'd be wondering why 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:01.599 you haven't come forward? Makes me very suspicious. Why you 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:04.560 haven't come forward because we did canvases, door knocks and 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:07.720 public appeals and all that. The other strategy in that 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:12.239 particular investigation, and this was in consultation with doctor Sarah 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:15.360 Ull as well, we got a million dollar reward for 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:18.240 anyone that had information. That was the first time a 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:21.640 million dollar reward had been announced. Would you agree with 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:24.839 that type of approach? Do you see there's benefits in 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:25.800 that type of approach. 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:28.599 I would agree with that. The other when you have 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:31.000 a child. It reminds me of a case in which 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:34.680 the wrestler did is he said, we need to talk 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:38.600 with the mother because maybe he felt the suspect was 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:40.719 going to get in touch with her. And he did, 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:43.920 and he tried to she's alive and I've taken her 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:48.159 here there and all that, And so the mother was 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:51.880 able to on the anniversary. This was the case that 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:56.760 really dragged out. Actually they thought that they knew who 0:06:57.000 --> 0:07:00.040 it was, and she said, I've been waiting for you 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:04.360 to call and took such surprise, you know, in other words, 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:07.960 use the technique that she didn't know necessarily if it was, 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:10.320 but but just saying waiting for you to call with 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:12.880 a great statement to be able to say and that's 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:13.280 what Bob. 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:17.200 That's yeah, that subtleness of it, but yeah, very powerful, 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:18.760 powerful way of encouraging. 0:07:19.840 --> 0:07:22.480 So that's another way that you can use media. You 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:24.520 can find out, especially when you have a child that 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:27.560 you've got access to to a grantic and you know, 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:30.240 trying to and if you engage them and say this 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:32.080 is the way that we can, you can you can 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:35.480 help us. In other words, you can can and that 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:38.600 empowers them to be able to want to work with 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:41.440 you rather than fight you or you know how sometimes 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:43.640 people get annoyed with the media and so forth. You 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:48.640 don't want that. So and and they they played it 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:51.400 along and it got so that he actually broke down 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:54.520 with This was the I think this is the Meyerhoff case, 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:58.520 one of the early cases that Bob worked on that worked. 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:01.480 That works in another one they were able to they 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:05.080 couldn't figure out where the suspect would know about. It 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:08.480 was a missing teenager, I think, And it turned out 0:08:08.520 --> 0:08:11.720 that it was the man that was babysitting the house 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:15.680 or watching the house, and he had written down a note. 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:19.240 They looked at the paper and realized there's indentation on 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:21.760 it and were able to get phone number. And that's 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:25.360 how they tracked them down, so that was another contact. 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:28.840 So there are all these little techniques that media is. 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:32.080 If you don't have any other suspects media, you've got 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:37.000 to try media or try some of these other strategies. 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:40.319 It's funny because I bought into that, and I can 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:43.719 attribute it back to reading John Douglas's book about the 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:46.160 use of the media, and there's other places that know, 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:48.960 we're not going to use the media, and I just say, 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:52.040 there's a tool. There was another interesting case. I wasn't 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:54.760 involved in it, but friends of mine were involved in. 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:58.760 It was a ripe in a very violent rape in 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:01.559 a small country town. Talking to a couple of hundred people. 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:04.400 They put a question there out in the town and 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:08.000 on what do you think should happen to the person 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:11.559 if we catch this person? There was yeah, two hundred 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:14.800 and ninety nine responses going, you know, you should be 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:18.240 doing time, blah blah blah. And there was one response, well, 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:22.560 everyone makes mistakes and get reguards and guess who the 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:26.360 person was. Oh look, oh look something standing out there 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:27.840 right right? 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:31.240 Absolutely, well we're using social media. 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:35.200 Now, yeah, well you'll have to buy into that, yes, yep, Now. 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:38.040 That's really important and I saw. I have my undergraduate 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:42.120 students watching the social media and especially if they get 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:44.640 a suspect that we try to right away get the 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:46.960 information and run it through AI to see if we 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:50.679 can learn something. Because it's pretty clear that they have 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:53.559 to tell someone and they can brag about it, there 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:58.840 is that need to not keep it so secret, and 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:02.880 so they do social media. That's a new technique. I 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:04.960 think that's very, very useful. 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:07.360 Well, it's something that we've got to got to adopt 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:10.000 now because the power of the media is shifting to 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:12.320 that social media side, isn't it to get to get 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:15.199 that message out. It's definitely something that we've got to embrace. 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:17.880 And I want to talk about AI. But a little 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:22.800 a little bit later, if we could crime scenes? What 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:25.040 the what the crime scenes to you? Because I find 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:30.160 that another fascinating part of being a detective, interpreting the 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:32.719 crime scene, taking your time to really taking what you're 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:35.520 seeing and get a sense of what we're what we're 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:36.240 dealing with here. 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:40.440 Right Well, the crime scene, of course, is I think 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:43.560 is absolutely critical. So you can get you can certainly 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:47.160 get evidence. Douglas was very good at just going to 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:49.640 a crime scene and getting a feel as he would 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:54.319 say about what happened and what he would he would say, 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:56.320 you have to walk in the shoes of the killer 0:10:56.880 --> 0:11:00.000 to really understand it. And I think that's true because 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:04.560 you get so familiar with cases and so just looking 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:07.280 at it that it's where they will take time just 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:09.920 to try to think of where was he? Where was 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:12.160 the victim? Because you do have a victim. That's why 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:15.680 the victimology is so critical. And what position is she 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:18.600 and what what might she be saying? Did she struggle? 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:22.000 Was there? You know, how was she located? How was 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:24.960 she targeted? Where did they encounter each other? Just a 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:29.160 lot of questions, So get in the line of the 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:33.760 investigator how this happened and why it happened, Why was 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:38.440 she targeted? Why did she become a victim? And I 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:42.360 think that's a one eighty degree turned from the way 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:45.280 it used to be. Where, Oh, she shouldn't have been there, 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:47.520 she shouldn't have been out walking. What does she think 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:49.600 was going to? You know, the blaming of the victim? 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:53.400 Unfortunately a lot of it started. You got to go 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:57.160 back to say where was he or where was the killer? 0:11:57.360 --> 0:11:58.559 You know, what was he doing? 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:02.160 And on that blame blaming the victim. And I'm sure 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:06.120 you again, probably the work that you did change that 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:10.480 thinking too that yeah, it's and I think society has 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:13.200 moved on and we understand better, not just law enforcement, 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:15.720 but you know the comments, well, she shouldn't have been 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:18.200 out late at night and those and the impact that 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:21.600 that has on victims, making them feel like they're they're 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:24.080 to blame for the crime. And you would have seen 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:27.559 it as I saw it, dealing with victims where no 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:30.720 matter the circumstances, it always crosses their mind that they're 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:34.079 at fault, or even the families of murdered victims are 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:38.319 blaming themselves should have done something. And I'm always at 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:40.960 pain to explain, no, you're the victim here, you're you're 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:43.520 not not the offender. Don't blame lay the blame there. 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:49.520 Linking crimes. So, and we talked in Part one a 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:53.040 little bit about that and experiences I've had over here 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:56.400 in New South Wales. The courts we've got tendency and 0:12:56.480 --> 0:12:59.880 coincidence evidence. So if we're trying to if there's a 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:03.960 serial rapists, we're looking at tendency and coincidence evidence. If 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:07.120 a certain type of crime, the mannerisms in which that 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:10.040 crime has been committed and then put that person before court. 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:14.360 Instead of charging the person with perhaps five offenses, we 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:17.240 might put ten offenses on him because the other crimes 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:21.400 are so strikingly similar. Can you talk us your understanding 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:24.720 and your knowledge of what you look for when you're 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:27.120 trying to determine if crimes are linked. 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:30.800 Well, the linking of crimes was something that I remember 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:33.680 Bary Hazel would spend a lot of time on looking. 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:36.880 He would take he had to have a case where 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:39.559 there are at least ten crimes, and he would look 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:42.240 at the first, the middle, and the last crime and 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:45.280 see what were the common themes there. And that's what 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:48.720 a lot of his research was because he was interested 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:52.080 in Sometimes it changed, as I said before, the m 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:55.240 OL change, the method of operation change, but not necessarily 0:13:55.280 --> 0:14:02.120 the signature. So the linkage part sick is the age? 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:06.439 What is there a certain age? Is a certain gender? 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:10.000 You know? Is it a child? Is it an adolescent? 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:12.600 Is it a because that will give you some idea 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:16.440 of what age you're looking for. Also, race is important 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:19.640 because more likely than not it's going to be same race. 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:22.640 It's it doesn't have to be, but if you want 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:24.800 just more than fifty percent it's going to be that. 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:27.440 So that can give you that the age of the 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:33.360 person you're looking for, the gender, the race. Then then 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:36.120 you would look if you're at the crime scene, then 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:38.000 you're going to be able to look and see what 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:41.600 was the weapon. But weapon doesn't weapon. They can use 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:46.200 multiple weapons, so weapon isn't always a good indicator, but 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:48.760 it will tell you if it was hands, you know, 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:52.080 blunt force trauma, or whether it was gone or a knife. 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:57.800 Certain cultural groups tend to, you know, use we always 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:01.000 go back to the Mad Bomber. I don't know that 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:05.320 case anyway that profile that it would because he would 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:10.320 be Middle Eastern because they tended to use bombs, and 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:14.280 this was now bomber. Obviously he was in New York 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:17.560 City buying, so sometimes that he would even be able 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:22.880 to be that precise, and then the personality features. Isn't 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:26.080 that clean? Crimes in the deep pickup thing nick it 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:27.880 the way that kind of thing. 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:32.800 I would look at the crime scenes, including where the body, 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:35.840 because sometimes the body is not where the actual murder 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:39.800 has occurred, but whether a weapon was introduced, if it 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:42.560 was brought there, or there's some planning that's gone into it. 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:45.440 The way the body is disposed of. Quite often that 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:48.640 it doesn't necessarily have to be a serial killing, but 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:50.560 I can see where there's a panic in the way 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:53.040 that the body's been disposed of. So the crime that's 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:56.360 telling me that the crime it wasn't planned, it escalated. 0:15:56.440 --> 0:15:58.720 So you're looking for something that triggered that and the 0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:02.680 way that the body has been disposed of, because quite 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:06.360 often that's that's the unraveling of the offender, because it's 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:09.400 they leave a trial like tracking an elephant through the 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:12.560 snowl What what do you look at in terms of 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:15.840 the way the body is disposed of and the injuries 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:18.200 to the body. So digging deep into that, what type 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:19.520 of thing are you looking at to there? 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:23.160 Well, I think that any bruising that you see, it's 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:27.720 going to be anger. I mean I something has triggered 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:30.360 either it's somebody else and he's using this as what 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:33.600 we call a displacement. He's angry why it's then so 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:37.920 he takes it out on this other person. Elderly victims 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:41.240 are often being a substitute for somebody that they knew 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:47.000 in their childhood. That's an unusual Although there's a lot 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:51.760 of crime against the elderly physical. I think the other 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:56.680 important factor is that you mentioned is whether the body 0:16:56.760 --> 0:16:59.800 was moved, how long did they spend with the body? 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:02.240 That's important, and that's going to give you a lot 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:06.399 of the fantasy and that you can pretty much figure 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:09.119 out what is going on in the mind. If you 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:12.280 think it's a fantasy, usually it is and a sexual homicide. 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:17.399 He's acting out something's not over and over, So that's important. 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:21.840 What else, let's see whether it's been is it posed 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:25.720 as the body posed? The other thing is is it 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:28.280 just discarded? Is it just dumped as a word that 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:30.399 they said, just by the side of the road, in 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:35.000 other words, just discarded to no emotional attachment of any 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:38.400 kind is there? And or is that just showing what 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:42.960 he thinks of that type of person. I'm just going 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:45.840 to give you an example that I thought in determining 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:50.560 the size, the size of the offender, if he's big, tall, whatever. 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:53.280 And then on the Joe Bet case, the first boy 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:57.479 was just left right kind of off the road. The 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:02.879 second body was found inside the forest and woods. And 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:05.720 what was important there is there are two footprints going 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:09.240 set of footprints going in, only one coming back. So 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:12.520 what that said, Yeah, so what that said is that 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:17.200 he was not able to carry the victim in, so 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:19.480 he marched him in, did what he did to him, 0:18:19.520 --> 0:18:20.800 and then came up. 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:25.320 I like that again, good detective work. Yeah, it seems simple, 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:27.439 but these are the little things that can be missed. 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:31.240 And I think I spent some time in the early 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:33.480 hours of the morning with someone trying to show me 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:36.960 where he disposed of a body ten years before. And 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:39.200 we pulled up there. It's dark, it was in the 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:42.919 National Park, and he walked in a certain distance and 0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:46.399 he walked hundreds of meters or one hundred and fifty meters, 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:51.160 which is a long way to carry a body. He was, genuinely, 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:54.080 I believe, trying to tell us where he disposed of 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:57.960 the body in a shallow grave. We had no success. 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:00.720 We searched the area that he indicated, and then we 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:04.160 tried something. We put him in the actual car that 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:07.720 he was driving at the time. We managed to get 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:10.679 access to that at the time he was disposing of 0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:14.679 the body, and we put a manequin. The rescue squad 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:18.040 uses eighty kilos. It's the weight of a body, a 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:20.359 limp body, put it in the boot of the car, 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:23.800 drove down to the location and then said to him, look, 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:26.560 we've got something in the boot. You show us how 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:29.119 you where you think you took this body in the dark, 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:31.600 in the bush, and how difficult it was, And that 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:34.359 made him sort of rethink about the distance in which 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:36.320 he carried it and it was in fact not one 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:39.000 hundred meters in from the road, that was only about 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:40.720 twenty five meters in from the road. 0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:44.600 So yeah, very good. 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:51.520 Yeah, I look at homicide. Some homicides are very simple 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:56.920 to solve. The more difficult ones. I look at opportunity, capability, 0:19:56.960 --> 0:19:59.719 and motive. There are three factors that I fit him 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:03.320 got You might have literally hundreds of persons of interest, 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:06.200 and I look at opportunity, I can tick that off 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:08.840 pretty easy. If the person's in prison, they haven't committed 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:14.200 that crime, right. Capability looking at is this person capable 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:17.879 physically capable of committing the crime? Or does this person 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:20.640 have access to the type of weapons? So that's sort 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:23.880 of a little bit more subjective. That motive is always. 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:28.440 Motive is the one that is always. I think motive 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:30.960 points you in the direction when you're looking for a suspect. 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:35.000 What's your thoughts on motive, Because if one person understands motive, 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:35.600 it would be you. 0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:39.960 Well, yeah, I mean that that's crucial. Now you don't 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:43.640 have to prove it in court, but they always want 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:44.560 you to, right. 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:47.560 Yeah, yeah, they want the faction in the narrative. Yeah. 0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:49.480 Yeah, they don't want you going the course. I don't 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:51.960 any idea why he did this. I mean, that's the 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:54.320 last thing that you want to say. You want to 0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:56.679 have some idea or at least have some what we 0:20:56.720 --> 0:20:59.400 call hypotheses that are that are going to be plausible 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:03.840 that or he will understand. Yeah, because a lot of 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:07.280 times they may say this is just a horrible murder 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:12.879 because maybe there's been dismemberment. Dismemberment can sometimes be because 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:15.520 they can't carry the body, they can't get it to 0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:18.280 another place. And that's so it's it's more of a 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:21.680 practical motive, if you will, of why that happened, rather 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:27.639 than any deep seated psychological rationale. Because I did a 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:31.840 case like that where he it was he had really 0:21:31.880 --> 0:21:36.439 cut the body up and he just left he just 0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:39.800 left it all because he couldn't. He tried putting him 0:21:39.800 --> 0:21:42.320 in bags, and I mean it was so I always 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:49.200 remember that to say, don't go beyond any un reasonable 0:21:49.600 --> 0:21:54.680 explanation kind of thing. So I think that that's really 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:58.880 really important as a motive, is that we have four 0:21:58.920 --> 0:22:05.040 categories of motive. The first one is criminal enterprise. Is 0:22:05.080 --> 0:22:09.280 this something that like a hit or an insurance killing, 0:22:09.440 --> 0:22:12.680 or something that's going to be more gun weapon kind 0:22:12.720 --> 0:22:15.960 of thing, or is it The biggest category is more 0:22:16.080 --> 0:22:20.159 the personal cause, in other words, is this personal to 0:22:20.200 --> 0:22:23.680 the person. They are about fourteen categories there of whether 0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:29.840 it's vene or whether it's not sexual, sexual as a whole, 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:32.679 separate unit. And then the fourth is group cause. But 0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:35.240 the personal cause, as I said, we have about twelve 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:39.480 or fourteen categories that to the person, and I think 0:22:39.520 --> 0:22:41.919 they make sense. It could be domestic, it could be 0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:46.679 a variety of others. But that's why we do the 0:22:46.720 --> 0:22:51.879 studies we're doing. We're doing one now on Indigenous murdered 0:22:51.920 --> 0:22:55.240 and missing men and comparing them to a group we've 0:22:55.359 --> 0:22:58.320 done on women. Why did they do this in their culture? 0:22:58.880 --> 0:23:01.400 So I do think that that's something that's really important 0:23:01.440 --> 0:23:02.639 to do to get that motive. 0:23:03.359 --> 0:23:07.159 Yeah, and it's interesting and the understanding that you're given 0:23:07.280 --> 0:23:12.080 and people quite often they want it all tied up 0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:14.760 in a bow. This is what's happened, and this is 0:23:14.800 --> 0:23:18.080 the motive. And again I learned a lot from dealings 0:23:18.119 --> 0:23:21.240 with Sarah Yule in that and even reference to the 0:23:21.280 --> 0:23:24.520 William Tyrell case that she said, the person that's committed 0:23:24.560 --> 0:23:27.280 this crime mightn't even know why they've committed this crime. So, 0:23:27.560 --> 0:23:32.000 you know, it's really hard to nail down the motive 0:23:32.040 --> 0:23:33.879 on the crime like that a three year old child. 0:23:34.160 --> 0:23:37.800 The public wanted all to be a pedophile, a scary person. 0:23:37.960 --> 0:23:42.159 That seems to be what the public perceived if a 0:23:42.240 --> 0:23:45.760 three year old child's disappeared. But Sarah was always at 0:23:45.840 --> 0:23:48.679 pains to point out to me when we're working the 0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:52.000 case that the person responsible for the case mightn't even 0:23:52.040 --> 0:23:52.800 know why. 0:23:53.520 --> 0:23:57.000 They may not know why. That was in mind Hunter, 0:23:57.160 --> 0:24:00.080 that was one of the cases that they did and 0:24:00.160 --> 0:24:03.200 Mighty Russell. They so they said, we're here to study 0:24:03.600 --> 0:24:05.680 men and why they do what they do. And he says, 0:24:05.800 --> 0:24:07.359 I hope you can tell me why I did what 0:24:07.440 --> 0:24:12.880 I did. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's great, very honest. 0:24:13.080 --> 0:24:16.240 Absolutely, you get you sit down in an interview room 0:24:16.240 --> 0:24:18.520 and you're interviewing someone and they've got all the detail 0:24:18.880 --> 0:24:21.080 and why did you do it? I'm not really sure 0:24:21.520 --> 0:24:28.560 it's yeah, fascinating, fascinating, fascinating will serial killing and mass 0:24:28.640 --> 0:24:32.439 killings I'm thinking here and I haven't got the facts 0:24:32.440 --> 0:24:34.840 and figures in front of me, but mass killing seem 0:24:34.920 --> 0:24:39.639 to be more prominent than serial killing in current current times. 0:24:40.520 --> 0:24:43.600 Do you is that something that you're a trend that 0:24:43.640 --> 0:24:44.439 you've seen or. 0:24:45.160 --> 0:24:48.600 Yes, that's what I said. You're right that serial killings. 0:24:48.640 --> 0:24:50.359 That's why I think we don't hear about them. I 0:24:50.400 --> 0:24:52.520 don't think they're being done as much as that more 0:24:52.560 --> 0:24:56.840 people are moving into mass shootings, especially shootings, which makes 0:24:56.920 --> 0:24:59.120 every bit at risk. You know, you can be out 0:24:59.160 --> 0:25:01.000 of the grocery store, or you could be in the 0:25:01.040 --> 0:25:05.400 mall and you've got mass shooting and everybody gets hit. 0:25:06.040 --> 0:25:10.400 So it's I think it's it's a very much more 0:25:10.480 --> 0:25:13.879 fearful for the average person than the cereal Most people think, well, 0:25:13.880 --> 0:25:16.200 I don't think any I'm going to encounter or any 0:25:16.240 --> 0:25:18.560 serial killer, because they usually try to get some kind 0:25:18.560 --> 0:25:22.560 of conversation going, you know, and some kind of relationship, 0:25:22.600 --> 0:25:26.560 whereas a mass shooting doesn't. It's all very impersonal. 0:25:26.400 --> 0:25:29.240 And what in the work that you can do, like 0:25:29.320 --> 0:25:32.200 I know over here for that type of the lone 0:25:32.280 --> 0:25:37.880 wolf situation ideology where there's ideology crossing too, you know action, 0:25:38.320 --> 0:25:41.840 what type of views do you have on the prevention 0:25:41.960 --> 0:25:42.960 of that type of crime. 0:25:43.280 --> 0:25:47.600 Well, right now you're venturing into an area we're looking 0:25:47.640 --> 0:25:50.640 at and that's a school shooter. We're having a terrible 0:25:51.320 --> 0:25:54.600 school shooter, and so we almost think that's a separate 0:25:54.600 --> 0:25:57.680 We're looking at a whole data set to see if 0:25:57.680 --> 0:26:03.400 we can justify that the it's separate from a weight 0:26:03.520 --> 0:26:07.960 supremist or an extremist or an insult that there's something 0:26:08.080 --> 0:26:10.840 unique there. So we've got about thirty cases we're going 0:26:10.920 --> 0:26:13.520 to look at and run through AI to see if 0:26:13.520 --> 0:26:15.520 we can come up with something because I think you're 0:26:15.560 --> 0:26:18.200 onto something and we're onto it too. 0:26:18.400 --> 0:26:22.040 Yeah, that would be interesting if you see a pattern 0:26:22.040 --> 0:26:24.959 emerging and you look back when the crime's being committed, 0:26:25.000 --> 0:26:27.280 and you look back and you think red flag, red flag, 0:26:27.359 --> 0:26:30.639 red flag. But to stop that happening, we've got to 0:26:30.680 --> 0:26:34.639 identify the seriousness of the offense of I think Laura 0:26:34.720 --> 0:26:37.760 Richard's made the point with stalking. If someone's been in 0:26:37.800 --> 0:26:41.399 a relationship and he's being stalked by a person that 0:26:41.440 --> 0:26:44.240 they've been in an intimate relationship with and that person 0:26:45.040 --> 0:26:47.960 then makes a threat to kill that person. There's a 0:26:47.960 --> 0:26:50.639 fifty to fifty chance that'll be carried out, so we 0:26:50.720 --> 0:26:54.600 look at yes. So I always thought stalking was a 0:26:54.640 --> 0:26:58.199 really dangerous crime that we didn't jump on with the 0:26:58.240 --> 0:27:01.560 full weight of the law that needed or given the importance, 0:27:01.640 --> 0:27:04.480 because I think it tells me something about the mindset 0:27:04.480 --> 0:27:06.919 of a person that's prepared to stalk another person. 0:27:07.160 --> 0:27:11.640 Yeah, it's very dangerous, and I'm doing a case right now. 0:27:12.000 --> 0:27:17.439 Quadruple killing horrible. And it was so clear it was 0:27:18.040 --> 0:27:22.720 sexual jealousy that we're not sure was even possible that 0:27:23.720 --> 0:27:28.240 she We haven't had any confirmation and we won't because 0:27:28.280 --> 0:27:31.920 of course she was murdered. But this whole matter, when 0:27:31.960 --> 0:27:34.440 you look at a pattern that's a common pattern in 0:27:34.560 --> 0:27:40.520 these domestic killings, that it's it's a paranoia, is suspicious 0:27:40.560 --> 0:27:44.080 that the partner is having, you know, some kind of 0:27:44.160 --> 0:27:48.720 affair with somebody else. So that is really I would 0:27:48.760 --> 0:27:51.800 agree that it's very and it's hard to stop. You 0:27:51.840 --> 0:27:55.000 can't stop it. The only way you stop it is 0:27:55.080 --> 0:27:57.600 you can't in any way encourage it, and you have 0:27:57.640 --> 0:28:01.120 to almost disappear. In that particular case, he had done 0:28:01.119 --> 0:28:04.960 that to an earlier partner, and she were two years, 0:28:05.560 --> 0:28:09.360 went underground nobody, she gave her information out, didn't let 0:28:09.400 --> 0:28:12.320 anybody know where she was. That's what it took for her. 0:28:12.359 --> 0:28:14.360 And then of course he then gets into this other 0:28:14.440 --> 0:28:18.760 relationship and he ends up killing and killing anybody that 0:28:18.960 --> 0:28:22.280 was guarding her. That was you know, she had a 0:28:22.400 --> 0:28:25.600 detective order out. I mean, she did everything that she 0:28:25.680 --> 0:28:26.520 possibly could. 0:28:27.320 --> 0:28:32.320 Yeah. I look, we've had a spate of domestic related murders, 0:28:32.320 --> 0:28:35.280 and quite often it's that jilted lover or jilted partner 0:28:35.320 --> 0:28:38.680 and ends up in someone being killed. We've had a 0:28:38.680 --> 0:28:42.120 real spade of them at the moment in this country. 0:28:42.120 --> 0:28:44.960 But I think we've got to start. We're changing. We're 0:28:44.960 --> 0:28:48.080 bought in new legislation coercive control, which I think is 0:28:48.120 --> 0:28:51.600 a step in the right direction. And that's because police 0:28:51.920 --> 0:28:53.840 hands were tied in that you'd turn up to a 0:28:53.840 --> 0:28:56.560 domestic situation where there hasn't been the physical assault. What 0:28:56.640 --> 0:29:00.240 can we charge this person with now? Coercive control because 0:29:00.360 --> 0:29:04.840 again indicators that lead up to the eventual act, which 0:29:04.920 --> 0:29:07.280 tends to be a very violent, violent crime. 0:29:07.680 --> 0:29:11.400 Sure. Well, the other thing, just to go back to 0:29:11.480 --> 0:29:15.080 that case, that I'm working on now. Sheeve was so 0:29:15.160 --> 0:29:19.400 scared she wanted to carry a little knife to protect herself, 0:29:19.960 --> 0:29:23.080 and because she was on probation for another matter, they said, no, 0:29:23.160 --> 0:29:26.080 you can't have it. She might have been able to 0:29:26.320 --> 0:29:30.920 have protected herself when he comes in because he changes weapons, 0:29:30.960 --> 0:29:35.240 he changes from gun to knife, so the personal the 0:29:35.360 --> 0:29:38.480 use of a knife is so much more personal, and 0:29:38.760 --> 0:29:40.720 you might have been able to pull that in and 0:29:40.960 --> 0:29:43.240 saved herself. So it's awful. 0:29:45.080 --> 0:29:47.400 Another question I want I want to ask you that 0:29:47.880 --> 0:29:50.640 I get asked a lot, and I think you've got 0:29:50.680 --> 0:29:53.760 a lot more you know, understanding of it than myself. 0:29:54.560 --> 0:29:58.880 Nature or nurture, like people often often raise that with me, 0:29:59.000 --> 0:30:00.479 is a homicide to take the Do you think it 0:30:00.520 --> 0:30:03.160 was the environment or do you think that will bone that? Why? What? 0:30:03.160 --> 0:30:06.360 What's your what's your type natural nurture. 0:30:07.280 --> 0:30:11.520 I don't think that it's genetic. I don't that there's 0:30:11.600 --> 0:30:16.640 any genetic link. But they've grown up in an atmosphere. 0:30:16.640 --> 0:30:19.040 If they've grown up in an atmosphere where there is 0:30:19.160 --> 0:30:23.480 role modeling, if you will uh that that can be 0:30:23.640 --> 0:30:27.200 very dangerous and that they can they can learn, you know, 0:30:27.240 --> 0:30:29.960 it's what we kind of call from a learning if 0:30:29.960 --> 0:30:33.240 they've been abuse, say, our father can be very aggressive 0:30:33.280 --> 0:30:39.080 and very physically damaging to his son, and especially if 0:30:39.080 --> 0:30:44.600 he's targeted as the favored child, not favor necessarily positively 0:30:45.440 --> 0:30:49.360 that I think environment is very very important. As to 0:30:49.440 --> 0:30:55.000 the nature part, I think not so much. But they've 0:30:55.000 --> 0:30:58.320 never had I've never seen any studies that have compermed it. 0:30:58.400 --> 0:31:00.800 It's a very would be very hard to do that. 0:31:00.880 --> 0:31:04.800 So I'm much more that the environment, environment, and especially 0:31:04.960 --> 0:31:10.160 the people that they are around. Yeah, and that they 0:31:10.800 --> 0:31:14.880 themselves have been traumatized in some way that has stuck 0:31:15.080 --> 0:31:18.080 with them. Don't forget. We use the theory that it's 0:31:18.080 --> 0:31:21.880 a fantasy that gets nurtured and kind of acted out 0:31:22.520 --> 0:31:25.040 and it's got to come from somewhere, and that it 0:31:25.120 --> 0:31:28.280 could come from something that happened to them, and that 0:31:28.280 --> 0:31:30.320 that's a way that they're expressing it. 0:31:30.600 --> 0:31:33.920 Okay, I had I'm not sure if you're familiar with 0:31:34.000 --> 0:31:39.320 the work of James Fallon, the neuroscientists that did pet 0:31:39.400 --> 0:31:45.040 scans of the people that were considered psychopaths, including some 0:31:45.120 --> 0:31:48.720 serial killers. He made the observation he did pet scans 0:31:48.720 --> 0:31:51.800 on the brains and the frontal cortex or whatever and 0:31:52.560 --> 0:31:55.600 clearly I'm not a brain expert, but said there was 0:31:56.440 --> 0:31:58.440 a pattern that he would see in people that have 0:31:58.560 --> 0:32:02.880 been identified as psycho paths, and he needed something to 0:32:02.920 --> 0:32:07.760 cross reference the study, so he got a PET scan 0:32:07.880 --> 0:32:09.960 done of his own brain and other people he knew 0:32:10.480 --> 0:32:14.080 he had the same predisposition of some of the psychopaths 0:32:14.080 --> 0:32:17.560 that whose brains that pet scan was done on. But 0:32:17.920 --> 0:32:20.640 he came to the conclusion. I found this interesting. He 0:32:20.680 --> 0:32:24.040 came to the conclusion that his environment that he grew 0:32:24.120 --> 0:32:28.520 up in those nurturing years from birth to the age 0:32:28.560 --> 0:32:31.800 of three, those crucial years, was in a loving, caring environment. 0:32:32.080 --> 0:32:34.000 And then he's looking at these other ones that have 0:32:34.080 --> 0:32:36.840 acted out as a psychopath as he would think and 0:32:37.000 --> 0:32:40.200 turned into the trust killers have grown up in that 0:32:40.600 --> 0:32:44.000 traumatic environment when there wasn't love, there wasn't nurturing and 0:32:44.040 --> 0:32:46.640 all that. And so that his take on it was 0:32:46.640 --> 0:32:49.800 almost like a combination, and it seemed to make sense 0:32:49.840 --> 0:32:52.920 what he was saying there, and it ties into what 0:32:52.960 --> 0:32:55.640 you're saying about the environment having a part in. 0:32:55.600 --> 0:32:59.480 It, right right. I just think it's critical, and the 0:32:59.560 --> 0:33:03.480 trauma piece is critical too. But I think that if 0:33:03.480 --> 0:33:06.600 he's got some good research that you can't ignore it. 0:33:07.720 --> 0:33:07.920 You know. 0:33:08.000 --> 0:33:10.160 That's really good. That's an addition to the feit. 0:33:10.760 --> 0:33:14.160 Yeah, yeah, well it was. It was interesting. You've mentioned 0:33:14.200 --> 0:33:17.280 a AI a lot, and yeah, I'd like to think 0:33:17.320 --> 0:33:21.280 I embraced technology. I'm coming along to that thinking I've 0:33:21.360 --> 0:33:25.640 recently started to delve into AI and a lot of 0:33:25.960 --> 0:33:28.960 stuff that I'm doing, and I keep reflecting back, and 0:33:28.960 --> 0:33:31.000 I've been out of the police for four or so 0:33:31.200 --> 0:33:34.000 years and I'm reflecting back. How handy that would be. 0:33:34.600 --> 0:33:37.560 You've referenced a lot. Can you just talk to us 0:33:37.600 --> 0:33:40.400 about how you're using AI and what you're seeing in 0:33:40.440 --> 0:33:43.520 contemporary law enforcement, how they're using AI these days. 0:33:43.560 --> 0:33:46.960 Well, we're using it, mister Whitskoll, machine learning because it 0:33:47.040 --> 0:33:49.640 is the machine computer is a machine and we're looking 0:33:49.720 --> 0:33:52.800 at what we call topic modeling that when you enter, 0:33:53.160 --> 0:33:56.680 you put in the data, you're going to get patterns 0:33:56.760 --> 0:34:00.040 that come out. Now, we talked, we've talked about a 0:33:59.880 --> 0:34:04.360 lot patterned. But this doesn't like in five minutes where 0:34:04.400 --> 0:34:07.680 we might have taken five years. We did that a 0:34:07.880 --> 0:34:11.520 comparison with a group out in Kansas, and we said, 0:34:11.600 --> 0:34:14.880 you send us and we do this for a threat assessment, 0:34:15.040 --> 0:34:18.640 you know, Leice will get in somebody saying I'm going 0:34:18.719 --> 0:34:21.560 to blow up a building or I'm going to kill somebody, 0:34:21.560 --> 0:34:24.160 and that's really scary and they have to decide. So 0:34:24.200 --> 0:34:27.520 I said, send us a case as much data as 0:34:27.560 --> 0:34:31.440 you can, and we'll run it through our algorithm. And 0:34:31.480 --> 0:34:35.560 they did, and it took fifteen minutes. We sent back back. 0:34:35.840 --> 0:34:39.960 What we found as terms of this is it was 0:34:40.000 --> 0:34:42.359 a serious case where they weren't sure if this guy 0:34:42.520 --> 0:34:46.000 was crazy quote quote or whether he was really going 0:34:46.040 --> 0:34:50.640 to kill somebody, and they had decided that it was 0:34:50.760 --> 0:34:55.160 not a threat, so we ran it took fifteen minutes. 0:34:55.280 --> 0:34:58.719 They had taken almost fifteen months to look at it. 0:34:58.800 --> 0:35:01.280 They the poor woman that collapse you' I can't believe 0:35:01.280 --> 0:35:03.960 you did in fifteen minutes, but came up with many 0:35:04.000 --> 0:35:09.960 of you. I felt badly for her, but it came 0:35:10.360 --> 0:35:14.920 with the other kinds of things that they hadn't thought of. 0:35:15.120 --> 0:35:17.120 So we sent it back to them and said, maybe 0:35:17.120 --> 0:35:21.399 you better keep this and if he gives you another threat, 0:35:21.440 --> 0:35:24.239 because he had given the multiple threats, this wasn't just 0:35:24.520 --> 0:35:28.400 slated one, that maybe you should take it seriously and 0:35:28.800 --> 0:35:31.480 let us know if there's anything. So that was just 0:35:31.520 --> 0:35:34.320 an example of how fast we were able to drub 0:35:34.320 --> 0:35:37.600 the material that they had taken so long. So it's 0:35:38.160 --> 0:35:41.040 wonderful if you've got a large amount of data that 0:35:41.120 --> 0:35:44.040 you want to look at very quickly and if you 0:35:44.120 --> 0:35:47.120 get the right algorithm, I mean that that's your key. 0:35:47.200 --> 0:35:50.120 You've got to have that, and then it just whips 0:35:50.120 --> 0:35:56.680 through the data. So we've looked at twenty three murderers manifestos, 0:35:57.640 --> 0:36:05.120 some of them you know Rogers, any of the they're 0:36:05.160 --> 0:36:07.360 on the lists. And now when we get a case, 0:36:07.440 --> 0:36:11.040 we could run the single case as comparison to the 0:36:11.160 --> 0:36:14.560 thirty twenty three that we have, and that will tell 0:36:14.680 --> 0:36:18.359 us what we're looking for. The whole thing is are 0:36:18.360 --> 0:36:21.000 they telling the truth? That's our next step is when 0:36:21.000 --> 0:36:24.600 we get data or they do an interview, are they 0:36:24.640 --> 0:36:27.359 telling us the truth? They're version of the truth. That's 0:36:27.400 --> 0:36:30.720 our next step. We have to come up with the algorithm. There. 0:36:32.200 --> 0:36:35.439 We're going to take some court testimony that was done 0:36:35.520 --> 0:36:39.000 under oath. People'll start with the Menendez case and see 0:36:39.000 --> 0:36:42.560 whether they were the truth kind of thing. So that's 0:36:42.600 --> 0:36:43.480 where it's going. 0:36:43.800 --> 0:36:45.960 It's something that we have to doing. Bryce, isn't I 0:36:46.040 --> 0:36:50.200 started in homicide and it was CODs that was. Yeah, 0:36:50.239 --> 0:36:54.560 there was CODs that we alphabetically the suspects information and 0:36:54.600 --> 0:36:56.600 all that and where we've got to now. 0:36:57.320 --> 0:37:00.640 Yeah, yeah, we have to go with it. I don't 0:37:00.680 --> 0:37:03.120 think we can ignore it. I mean, everybody is into 0:37:03.160 --> 0:37:06.279 it so and it's it should be not fun, but 0:37:06.400 --> 0:37:12.640 it should be looked at as just another tool, another technique, 0:37:12.800 --> 0:37:14.960 and we shouldn't say have going to do it. 0:37:15.320 --> 0:37:21.200 Yeah, no, it make sense reflecting on your career, some 0:37:21.440 --> 0:37:24.480 of the people that you've come into contact with, and 0:37:24.520 --> 0:37:29.040 there was I had a quote losing the paperwork here, 0:37:29.200 --> 0:37:31.280 but I had a quote from when you first started 0:37:31.320 --> 0:37:35.840 hearing the interviews that John Douglas and the team we're 0:37:35.840 --> 0:37:40.480 doing with some of the nia notorious serial killers, like 0:37:41.200 --> 0:37:46.920 eavesdropping on the rawest fringes of humanity. What can you 0:37:47.560 --> 0:37:51.480 I would imagine that would have been fascinating. What are 0:37:51.520 --> 0:37:54.240 some of the people that or some of the cases 0:37:54.239 --> 0:37:57.560 you've looked at that you you just you think memorable, 0:37:57.600 --> 0:38:00.560 not for any particular reason, but just things that have 0:38:00.680 --> 0:38:03.080 stood that to you in the time that you've been 0:38:03.120 --> 0:38:04.359 working in the field, that you have. 0:38:04.560 --> 0:38:07.280 Well, it's one of the things I always wondered about, 0:38:07.280 --> 0:38:10.040 but maybe I shouldn't is. And again I go back 0:38:10.040 --> 0:38:12.319 to Joe Bart. He was classic for that. He was 0:38:12.360 --> 0:38:15.000 one of our first is. They would do the horrendous 0:38:15.080 --> 0:38:18.520 killing and then they might go and have dinner, or 0:38:18.600 --> 0:38:21.520 have breakfast, or go to sleep. You know, it was like, 0:38:21.719 --> 0:38:28.520 oh nothing, It didn't seem to impact on them. And 0:38:28.560 --> 0:38:30.839 I remember Joe Bert saying in the interview we did 0:38:30.840 --> 0:38:33.719 with him, he said, you know, that's what the prosecutor said, 0:38:33.800 --> 0:38:37.359 is how callous could it be? And he said it 0:38:37.480 --> 0:38:40.960 was so they admitted. I think that gets to your 0:38:41.840 --> 0:38:45.760 point about the psychopathic quality that they don't have any empathy. 0:38:45.800 --> 0:38:51.400 They're unable. So is that something that is genetic nature 0:38:51.920 --> 0:38:54.400 versus do they just learn it or do they so 0:38:56.040 --> 0:39:01.920 cold to it? But that's what Kemper'd say, that they 0:39:01.960 --> 0:39:04.359 would go home and sleep, I remember, or they would 0:39:04.400 --> 0:39:07.640 talk about how hard it was to kill someone, that 0:39:07.640 --> 0:39:11.879 that it took a lot of energy. Oh yeah, no, 0:39:12.080 --> 0:39:14.640 I mean we have a horrible case here up in 0:39:14.760 --> 0:39:19.400 Idaho Univerversity where this one person killed four young women, 0:39:20.160 --> 0:39:24.439 three women and a man. He did it all within 0:39:24.480 --> 0:39:27.919 a very short time. I mean that took a lot 0:39:27.960 --> 0:39:31.680 of They haven't had the trial yet. They have a suspect, 0:39:31.719 --> 0:39:34.839 but that takes a lot of energy and a lot 0:39:34.880 --> 0:39:36.719 of time, and I don't think we think in those 0:39:36.800 --> 0:39:41.320 terms that we should be more just very very logical 0:39:41.840 --> 0:39:45.759 about it and how can they do that? You know, 0:39:45.840 --> 0:39:48.719 that's always been when you say, what would surprise me? 0:39:48.880 --> 0:39:51.759 That that that is, that's that did, what they would 0:39:51.800 --> 0:39:55.800 do afterwards, or that how they would keep the souvenirs 0:39:56.160 --> 0:39:58.360 and what they would do with them, And it was 0:39:58.560 --> 0:40:03.480 just no can of what that meant to the family 0:40:03.640 --> 0:40:07.400 or what that meant, you know, it did that was 0:40:08.400 --> 0:40:09.120 used to that. 0:40:12.160 --> 0:40:16.759 The bt K killer. What were you dealings or understanding 0:40:16.840 --> 0:40:20.400 we've that particular case and that particular person. 0:40:20.920 --> 0:40:23.840 Well, no, it was needing to know that. I needed 0:40:23.880 --> 0:40:26.680 to know that. And when and doing other interviews, we 0:40:26.719 --> 0:40:28.920 would ask the same thing, what did you do right after? 0:40:29.520 --> 0:40:32.000 That was a new question. A lot of times they 0:40:32.040 --> 0:40:36.040 weren't thinking about that. Obviously, they were thinking about was 0:40:36.080 --> 0:40:38.920 there any evidence left or something to make their case. 0:40:39.520 --> 0:40:42.719 But this is a more human kind of psychological thing 0:40:42.760 --> 0:40:44.839 of what kind of behavior do they show and then 0:40:44.920 --> 0:40:47.359 how fast would they do another crime? Because we were 0:40:47.400 --> 0:40:50.960 looking at cases and the escalation is clearly there. I 0:40:50.960 --> 0:40:54.319 think That's another major point that we found is that 0:40:54.360 --> 0:40:59.279 how fast the escalation when was one victim not enough? 0:41:00.120 --> 0:41:02.319 I think the other thing is when there would be 0:41:02.400 --> 0:41:05.800 multiple victims at the same time, How did that happen? 0:41:06.120 --> 0:41:09.239 Number one case, two little girls or two seven year 0:41:09.320 --> 0:41:14.279 old girls and they're both dead and post how did 0:41:14.600 --> 0:41:17.279 one person do it? It turned out, and it took 0:41:17.280 --> 0:41:22.600 a long time. He did two more murders before able 0:41:22.640 --> 0:41:26.719 to finally. He would always read first until finally one 0:41:26.760 --> 0:41:30.320 read victim survived, and that's how they're able to get. 0:41:30.880 --> 0:41:35.160 The nature of the crimes that seen in your time. 0:41:35.840 --> 0:41:39.600 One thing that I was always at pains without understanding 0:41:39.640 --> 0:41:43.160 the depth of the psychology of it than the mindset 0:41:43.239 --> 0:41:46.640 of the people as you do. But I was always 0:41:46.640 --> 0:41:49.640 at pains when I'm doing briefings on murder investigations and 0:41:49.719 --> 0:41:52.080 people would go, but why would you do this if 0:41:52.080 --> 0:41:55.200 you've done that? And I would say, you're trying to 0:41:55.200 --> 0:41:58.120 put a rational thought into an irrational action or an 0:41:58.160 --> 0:42:02.080 irrational mindset, because because I used to get frustrated where 0:42:02.840 --> 0:42:05.840 you talk about hypothesis and you're sitting around the briefing 0:42:05.920 --> 0:42:08.880 room and you're going, Okay, maybe this happened, but I 0:42:09.040 --> 0:42:12.479 couldn't have because he made a phone call ten minutes later. 0:42:13.080 --> 0:42:15.920 And I'm thinking, you're giving the rational thought to a 0:42:16.000 --> 0:42:21.000 totally irrational act or crime. Do you subscribe to my 0:42:21.239 --> 0:42:22.319 thought process there? 0:42:23.400 --> 0:42:27.239 And absolutely you said it perfectly, You absolutely did. Is 0:42:27.280 --> 0:42:31.560 that How can we in our logic make sense out 0:42:31.600 --> 0:42:31.879 of it? 0:42:32.400 --> 0:42:32.680 Yeah? 0:42:32.760 --> 0:42:36.680 You can't. That's why we've got to get into what 0:42:36.960 --> 0:42:40.120 is driving that thought? What is driving it? Because the 0:42:40.160 --> 0:42:42.960 thought is what drives the behavior. So we have to 0:42:42.960 --> 0:42:47.640 get into the thought. Not that we know what he did, right, 0:42:48.480 --> 0:42:51.239 We know what he did, we know the act, but 0:42:51.320 --> 0:42:52.240 we don't know the thought. 0:42:52.719 --> 0:42:57.120 Yeah. Interesting, Interesting, getting how do we get to that? Interesting? 0:42:57.239 --> 0:43:00.400 Getting your take on it. The other thing that's come up, 0:43:00.880 --> 0:43:04.560 or two things I'll just a touch on these. A 0:43:04.600 --> 0:43:06.919 lot of the people that you've dealt with, and I've 0:43:06.920 --> 0:43:12.759 seen it in my own investigation career, that upbringing in 0:43:12.920 --> 0:43:17.000 the resentment to the mother, the bond between what turns 0:43:17.000 --> 0:43:20.200 out to be this killer and what's taken place with 0:43:20.280 --> 0:43:23.000 the mother. It seems to come up time and time again. 0:43:23.520 --> 0:43:26.600 Thoughts on that situation, well, the mother. 0:43:26.440 --> 0:43:29.120 And the father, the whole issue of parenting. It was 0:43:29.200 --> 0:43:31.839 interesting in the study, you know, we did thirty six 0:43:31.920 --> 0:43:35.280 serial killers. But what we found is that very often 0:43:35.320 --> 0:43:38.280 the family would disrupt around when the boy was around 0:43:38.560 --> 0:43:41.600 adolescent and at a very critical time, I think for 0:43:41.920 --> 0:43:45.640 not only boys, girls too, And so they would always 0:43:45.640 --> 0:43:48.319 complain about the mother and they had always wanted to 0:43:48.320 --> 0:43:50.320 be with the father. Well, the problem was the father 0:43:50.440 --> 0:43:53.560 deserted them, right, he was the absent father. So then 0:43:53.600 --> 0:43:56.080 they only have the mother to blame. So I would 0:43:56.160 --> 0:43:59.400 often get annoyed early on. We would talk about the 0:43:59.440 --> 0:44:03.160 Domino mothers. Well, she was the only parent. She had 0:44:03.200 --> 0:44:05.960 to be both mother and father and discipline. And I said, 0:44:06.160 --> 0:44:07.520 they have no appreciation. 0:44:07.880 --> 0:44:09.000 That makes sense, you know. 0:44:09.239 --> 0:44:11.480 So I think we I wanted people to be a 0:44:11.520 --> 0:44:14.279 little careful about what they said about the bad mother, 0:44:14.719 --> 0:44:18.960 because I think it was unfair in some cases. No, 0:44:19.200 --> 0:44:22.840 maybe not all cases, but certainly in some cases. And 0:44:23.000 --> 0:44:25.600 some mothers tried to do the right thing. They saw 0:44:25.640 --> 0:44:28.719 their son having this odd behavior and they would take 0:44:28.760 --> 0:44:32.120 them to the psychiatrists, and a psychiatrist would say, oh, 0:44:32.160 --> 0:44:35.160 he'll grow out of it, he's just it's just that 0:44:35.360 --> 0:44:39.640 lesson thing. Well that's no help, you know, And and 0:44:39.719 --> 0:44:43.520 so what would I try to do? This is the 0:44:43.560 --> 0:44:45.719 other area that I think we have to pay more 0:44:45.719 --> 0:44:49.480 attention to is how to help people who get these cases, 0:44:49.640 --> 0:44:53.840 whether they're clinicians or social workers, whatever they are, is 0:44:53.880 --> 0:44:57.640 to pay attention to it and get some consultation. In 0:44:57.680 --> 0:45:00.600 other words, if you can't answer, and you really think 0:45:00.640 --> 0:45:02.880 that this is odd, but you don't know what to say, 0:45:03.200 --> 0:45:05.040 there are plenty of people that will be happy to 0:45:05.080 --> 0:45:07.520 do a consult you know, I do them all the 0:45:07.560 --> 0:45:10.520 time to help people, just to you know, this is 0:45:10.560 --> 0:45:13.960 this bad behavior, is this dangerous behavior, or is this 0:45:14.000 --> 0:45:19.240 behavior that will resolve, you know, by the next couple 0:45:19.239 --> 0:45:22.360 of years. Well, that's really important because people don't know 0:45:22.440 --> 0:45:26.360 to how to handle the young adolescent. The emerging adult, 0:45:26.400 --> 0:45:28.920 I think is the correct term we should use now. 0:45:29.520 --> 0:45:33.479 Yeah, well, and you quite rightly identified that that's such 0:45:33.480 --> 0:45:36.080 a crucial stage in development, isn't it where life can 0:45:36.120 --> 0:45:39.959 go off in different directions that that lescence stage. 0:45:40.080 --> 0:45:46.440 And hormones are changing. We cannot deny that fast grown 0:45:47.000 --> 0:45:50.680 is going certainly for the young male. And that's that's 0:45:51.000 --> 0:45:56.120 that which is aggression, right, It's normal, So we shouldn't 0:45:56.120 --> 0:45:58.440 be afraid of it. If it gets off on the 0:45:58.480 --> 0:46:00.920 wrong track, we better be careful. We have a lot 0:46:00.920 --> 0:46:03.560 of cases here in the States where the parents and 0:46:03.640 --> 0:46:06.200 the schools get concerned and they won't do anything. They've 0:46:06.239 --> 0:46:09.279 got to do something. They can't put guns, give their 0:46:09.360 --> 0:46:10.439 kids guns. 0:46:11.000 --> 0:46:15.200 Yeah, I really because we're watching from this country and 0:46:15.320 --> 0:46:18.040 we're just horrified with the school shooting. So I think 0:46:18.040 --> 0:46:20.880 it's fantastic that you're looking into that aspect of it, 0:46:20.880 --> 0:46:24.160 because it's just got it's got to stop. It's horrendous, 0:46:24.680 --> 0:46:29.800 such a horrendous, horrendous crime. The people that ingratiate themselves 0:46:29.800 --> 0:46:32.719 into investigations, that's another thing that I've seen, whether it's 0:46:32.760 --> 0:46:34.799 a murder investigation or it could be something at a 0:46:34.920 --> 0:46:38.799 lower level. People that and I've always thought it's just 0:46:38.880 --> 0:46:41.359 a curiosity they want to know what's in or they're 0:46:41.360 --> 0:46:43.839 reflecting on their crime. Look at all the drama I've cause, 0:46:44.160 --> 0:46:47.800 did you encounter that a lot during during your studies 0:46:47.800 --> 0:46:48.960 and your work. 0:46:49.200 --> 0:46:52.160 Trying to think of whether there certainly was a great 0:46:52.200 --> 0:46:56.160 deal of what we call narcissism, kind of taking pride 0:46:56.160 --> 0:46:59.759 in these horrible things that they were doing. So I 0:47:00.239 --> 0:47:05.200 think that that plays a bril in it that I 0:47:05.200 --> 0:47:07.560 don't know how much that plays into their denial. You 0:47:07.600 --> 0:47:09.520 know how many chapels say, oh, I don't know why 0:47:09.560 --> 0:47:11.759 I did what I did. Well, yeah, maybe you do 0:47:11.920 --> 0:47:14.560 know what you did and you're just saying that that's 0:47:14.560 --> 0:47:16.719 what we have to get at. But I do think 0:47:16.800 --> 0:47:22.440 that there is the narcissism that they I can think 0:47:22.480 --> 0:47:25.640 of a number of cases where they did it because 0:47:25.719 --> 0:47:28.920 they felt they were entitled to be able to do 0:47:29.040 --> 0:47:32.560 it and get away with it. I think the boldness. 0:47:32.600 --> 0:47:35.640 I've had a couple of cases, just in rape cases 0:47:35.680 --> 0:47:40.799 where the boldness has astounded me that they felt they 0:47:40.800 --> 0:47:41.960 could just get away with it. 0:47:43.480 --> 0:47:46.399 They didn't what was that base on the tournament or 0:47:46.520 --> 0:47:47.319 just they. 0:47:50.120 --> 0:47:53.200 We had we had a case where the the it 0:47:53.320 --> 0:47:56.040 was a rape and he liked elderly women. He went 0:47:56.080 --> 0:47:59.120 into a hospital and he went on the eighth floor. 0:47:59.239 --> 0:48:02.040 He got a victim and when the nurse came and 0:48:02.080 --> 0:48:06.000 said who are you and he said, I'm a nursing student. 0:48:06.560 --> 0:48:09.520 I mean, he lied, And then he goes to the 0:48:09.560 --> 0:48:12.640 seventh floor and that time he says that he's a 0:48:12.680 --> 0:48:15.799 family member. This is like one in the morning, so yeah, 0:48:15.960 --> 0:48:18.520 very quiet, and he gets to the sixth floor before 0:48:18.600 --> 0:48:21.840 finally security comes, and what does he do with security. 0:48:21.880 --> 0:48:24.880 He said, he drives a hit him. He have saltson. 0:48:25.360 --> 0:48:27.480 Okay, So I mean that. 0:48:26.920 --> 0:48:29.480 That boldness, isn't it in the hospital. 0:48:31.080 --> 0:48:35.640 Well, you've touched on one of our states most notorious 0:48:35.880 --> 0:48:38.000 serial killers, and a lot of people that I worked 0:48:38.000 --> 0:48:41.280 with worked the case was the granny killer and murdered 0:48:42.080 --> 0:48:47.200 six women and all elderly ladies living in a certain 0:48:47.239 --> 0:48:52.799 area in Sydney, a fairly affluent area in Sydney. And 0:48:53.320 --> 0:48:55.960 he was They got on to him because he was 0:48:56.000 --> 0:48:59.719 a pie salesman and he went to a nursing home 0:48:59.760 --> 0:49:03.799 and was sexually assaulted one of the elderly victims. And 0:49:03.840 --> 0:49:06.440 that sort of a lot more layers to it than that, 0:49:06.560 --> 0:49:08.919 but that led it led it to tracking him down. 0:49:08.960 --> 0:49:14.200 But he had issues with his mother that her promiscurity, 0:49:14.600 --> 0:49:18.160 I believe it was. And the ladies that he attacked, 0:49:18.560 --> 0:49:21.719 he would pull their underwear down and display them in 0:49:22.120 --> 0:49:27.400 vulnerable positions and leave their bodies their And yeah, I 0:49:27.440 --> 0:49:30.600 think that changed the way because that would have it 0:49:30.800 --> 0:49:34.000 was during the eighties. The way that we approach the 0:49:34.080 --> 0:49:37.640 criminal investigation taught us how to investigate serial killing because 0:49:37.640 --> 0:49:40.680 it was happening so frequently and it was just a 0:49:41.560 --> 0:49:45.239 hop profile situation. I want to ask you mindful of 0:49:45.239 --> 0:49:47.440 the time, but I just want to wrap up with 0:49:48.280 --> 0:49:51.640 the type of work that you've done and not done 0:49:51.680 --> 0:49:54.680 you're still doing clearly and full credit to you. It's 0:49:54.719 --> 0:49:58.239 been an absolutely amazing career. How do you keep your 0:49:58.280 --> 0:50:01.520 faith in humanity? Because sitting down and chatting to you, you 0:50:01.560 --> 0:50:06.280 come across like you can laugh, you can smile, you've 0:50:06.719 --> 0:50:10.600 look like you've you're enjoying life. And how have you 0:50:10.680 --> 0:50:15.640 managed to step away or not be destroyed by the 0:50:16.640 --> 0:50:20.200 evil darkness that you've seen during your career. 0:50:20.600 --> 0:50:22.880 No, that's a very fair question, but I think that 0:50:22.960 --> 0:50:29.600 as a nurse we're trained to separate ourselves from terrible situations. 0:50:29.640 --> 0:50:33.880 You know, we see all disease and sadness and so forth. 0:50:34.160 --> 0:50:36.640 So you have to be able to separate out and 0:50:36.719 --> 0:50:40.960 not let it that. That said doesn't mean that you 0:50:41.000 --> 0:50:44.359 don't think about the cases. Certainly I do, and some 0:50:44.440 --> 0:50:47.640 of them, really child cases really are are hard to take. 0:50:49.360 --> 0:50:52.080 But I think that that's where you have to be trained. 0:50:52.239 --> 0:50:55.440 You have to be able to separate well you yourself 0:50:55.600 --> 0:50:58.520 as a you can't go taking your cases home at 0:50:58.640 --> 0:51:02.919 night or you'd be sleeping much so I think that 0:51:02.920 --> 0:51:04.759 that's something you have to learn and you have to 0:51:04.760 --> 0:51:08.160 be trained for, and that's what I do. The other 0:51:08.239 --> 0:51:12.560 thing is I do teaching. I try to translate what 0:51:12.680 --> 0:51:16.880 I'm doing for younger generations to be able to carry 0:51:16.920 --> 0:51:19.759 on and to understand so we can stamp out some 0:51:19.840 --> 0:51:22.680 of this. That's where I get most of my uh, 0:51:24.160 --> 0:51:26.839 that's where I think that. I like to think that 0:51:26.880 --> 0:51:28.279 I'm doing something really good. 0:51:29.800 --> 0:51:33.200 I get that, and it's nourishing, nourishing for you because 0:51:33.239 --> 0:51:36.359 it is a dark world, but you can you can 0:51:36.520 --> 0:51:39.200 work it and come out come out relatively unscathed. I 0:51:39.560 --> 0:51:43.520 found that that you can correct me if I'm wrong. 0:51:43.560 --> 0:51:47.279 But I read somewhere that you had some of the 0:51:47.360 --> 0:51:49.960 notorious serial killers sending you Christmas. 0:51:49.520 --> 0:51:52.960 Cards Easter cards too. 0:51:54.480 --> 0:52:03.839 I'm glad they didn't forget Easter bizarre. Well, how did 0:52:03.840 --> 0:52:04.600 you feel about that? 0:52:07.760 --> 0:52:10.440 Well, I'd like to think that they, you know, they 0:52:10.520 --> 0:52:14.440 appreciated something for out of Mind Hunter or something like that. 0:52:14.560 --> 0:52:16.120 But it was pretty funny. 0:52:17.040 --> 0:52:21.200 It is funny, and I've had situations, situations like that 0:52:21.280 --> 0:52:23.040 and you've just got to got to laugh about it. 0:52:23.320 --> 0:52:25.200 And I knew that I knew where they were. They 0:52:25.239 --> 0:52:27.280 were Cecily locked up, so I wasn't worried. 0:52:27.400 --> 0:52:30.360 Okay, yeah, that makes you a bit tougher and a 0:52:30.360 --> 0:52:33.080 bit braver if you know they're they're locked up. But 0:52:33.520 --> 0:52:36.480 the things that you've accomplished in your career and whining 0:52:36.480 --> 0:52:39.560 in the back, I'm focusing on the homicide, the stuff 0:52:39.560 --> 0:52:41.840 that you've done in nursing, and the role model that 0:52:41.880 --> 0:52:45.040 you've been for women in law enforcement and nursing. Full 0:52:45.080 --> 0:52:47.920 credit to you, and I mean that with the utmost 0:52:48.000 --> 0:52:52.319 honestly and respect. And I think it's really funny that 0:52:52.760 --> 0:52:55.640 you guys wouldn't even appreciate how much respect you got 0:52:55.680 --> 0:52:58.680 over here with what I call the true homicide detectives 0:52:58.680 --> 0:53:02.040 that understand the of the work that you're doing. So 0:53:02.320 --> 0:53:04.960 full credit to you and getting you on eye catch Killers. 0:53:05.440 --> 0:53:09.040 I can't explain how excited I was getting you on 0:53:09.120 --> 0:53:09.759 so well. 0:53:10.160 --> 0:53:13.359 I've certainly enjoyed it. You're wonderful to talk with. I 0:53:13.480 --> 0:53:14.520 enjoy it very much. 0:53:14.880 --> 0:53:17.840 Well, Thank you, Thank you very much. One question, because 0:53:18.080 --> 0:53:22.160 the listeners will criticize me if I don't ask the 0:53:22.320 --> 0:53:27.240 character that you based loosely on you in Mind Hunters, 0:53:27.360 --> 0:53:31.040 Dr Wendy Carr, do you like they do you like 0:53:31.080 --> 0:53:33.520 the portrayal. She seems like a pretty cool lady to me, 0:53:33.640 --> 0:53:35.439 and what I've seen on the show. 0:53:35.880 --> 0:53:37.799 I loved her as an actress. I thought she did 0:53:37.800 --> 0:53:39.920 a great job and she did the case as well, 0:53:40.040 --> 0:53:43.200 but I didn't like about her background. And the other 0:53:43.280 --> 0:53:46.680 two is they got it so wrong that and they 0:53:46.760 --> 0:53:50.120 must they did not consult with John about all that 0:53:50.200 --> 0:53:53.040 kind of stuff. They had all of our material, but 0:53:53.160 --> 0:53:55.840 I and I know it was just for Hollingwood that 0:53:55.880 --> 0:54:02.080 they wanted to get a wider audience. But dogs are 0:54:02.080 --> 0:54:08.239 my favorite cat. Sorry, well remember she with the cat, 0:54:08.320 --> 0:54:11.240 Remember she had the cat. 0:54:11.760 --> 0:54:14.640 Well, as you said, it's for Hollywood, but look the 0:54:14.640 --> 0:54:16.839 way the way it's betrayed. And I've got to say 0:54:16.880 --> 0:54:19.359 on the on the show, I like the way they 0:54:19.400 --> 0:54:23.080 approach interviews. I like the the edginess of taking like 0:54:23.200 --> 0:54:25.239 the person sitting there expecting they're going to get a 0:54:25.280 --> 0:54:27.760 standard question and then they go off on the tangent. 0:54:27.800 --> 0:54:29.640 I love that aspect of it. 0:54:29.680 --> 0:54:32.000 But look, it's very good. 0:54:33.040 --> 0:54:35.000 Well, look all the best for all the best for 0:54:35.040 --> 0:54:37.759 the future. Thank you so much for your time, and 0:54:38.080 --> 0:54:41.000 our listeners are going to absolutely love love this chat 0:54:41.000 --> 0:54:43.400 and the stuff that you talk about such an interesting, 0:54:43.760 --> 0:54:44.359 interesting era. 0:54:45.120 --> 0:54:47.480 Well, thank you for your coming words. I appreciate it.