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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives

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Speaker 1: detective sy aside of life. The average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with doctor

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Speaker 1: an Bergers, who is a legend amongst law enforcement agencies

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Speaker 1: across the globe, particularly with those detectives responsible for investigating

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Speaker 1: murders and serial offenders. If you miss part one, we're

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Speaker 1: talking about how doctor Burger's skills developed as a psychiatric

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Speaker 1: nurse and evolved into her working with the FBI, developing

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Speaker 1: a process of understanding the mind of serial killers and

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Speaker 1: profiling criminals in order to understand and most importantly, catch killers.

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Speaker 1: Doctor an Burgers, Welcome.

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Speaker 2: Back, Welcome, glad to be back.

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Speaker 1: Okay, At the risk of embarrassing myself, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: let you into a little little secret here. Early in

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Speaker 1: my career as a homicide detective, I'd read John Douglas's

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Speaker 1: book Mind Hunter, and quite often myself and my partner

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Speaker 1: at the time, Paul Jacob, we'd be standing at murder

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Speaker 1: scenes going what would John Douglas do in this situation?

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Speaker 1: In that what I liked about it, and bearing in

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Speaker 1: mind we're talking thirty years ago. I'd read the book

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Speaker 1: but what I took away from it was you've got

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Speaker 1: to be proactive in the way that you approach an investigation.

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Speaker 1: And I see failings of homicide investigations. I see where

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Speaker 1: people saw the stand, they gather the evidence, everyone's trying

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Speaker 1: to solve the murder, but they're not proactive in their

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Speaker 1: thinking and the way of initiating things happening in the

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Speaker 1: crime scene. And I remember, like John Douglas away that

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Speaker 1: or the things that I picked up from that book

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Speaker 1: and other literature that i'd read at the time, was

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Speaker 1: about the strategy that's required when dealing with the media,

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Speaker 1: because most killers, and this is in my experience, do

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Speaker 1: listen to the media, and when they've committed a crime,

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Speaker 1: they're fascinated. And back in the day it was the

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Speaker 1: front page paper or the evening news when stories were broken,

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Speaker 1: they'd be fascinated by what the detectives were saying. And

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Speaker 1: my biggest criticism of police and the use of media

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Speaker 1: is where I see someone standing there at police officer,

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Speaker 1: usually a senior police officer, standing there going We've got

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Speaker 1: no idea what's happened. There's no witnesses, there's no forensic

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Speaker 1: evidence and whatever. And I'm thinking, if I was a crook,

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Speaker 1: if I was a suss go, I'd be sitting there going, yes, great,

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Speaker 1: if I keep my mouth shut, I get away of it.

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Speaker 1: What's your thoughts on strategies and the use of the

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Speaker 1: media when you're investigating investigating crimes.

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Speaker 2: Well, we looked into this, and interestingly enough, when you

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Speaker 2: go way back to Jaker Hoover, who was one of

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Speaker 2: the first directors of the FBI, one of the things

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Speaker 2: he felt very strongly that he wanted to make a

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Speaker 2: wanted to influence the media. He had several of his

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Speaker 2: agents assigned to that task, and what they would do

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Speaker 2: is to play to the media. They would send if

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Speaker 2: they knew a birthday or an anniversary, they'd send cards,

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Speaker 2: they said, always would say things. So they really use

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Speaker 2: the media in a very positive way. And he knew

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Speaker 2: that the way that the media portrayed them had a

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Speaker 2: lot to do with their public approval, so that was

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Speaker 2: very useful. So that's where I would say that John

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Speaker 2: Douglas really and Bob Rustler knew how to play the

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Speaker 2: media and felt that that was very important in any

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Speaker 2: kind of a an investigation they were doing. That was

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Speaker 2: one I would say one of them, and John was

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Speaker 2: very good at being able to engage the media and

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Speaker 2: to you know, get the information out, so the media

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Speaker 2: felt a part of it. It was really having them

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Speaker 2: work with them. They realized they couldn't catch suspects all

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Speaker 2: by themselves sometimes so that they had to that and

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Speaker 2: that John Joe Barcase was an excellent example of that,

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Speaker 2: where they made it very clear that the community had

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Speaker 2: to all be on board to catch this this person.

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Speaker 2: So that's one of their story. I think that's one

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Speaker 2: of their strongest points that the two agents had and

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Speaker 2: they taught that to their junior ones coming along.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I you said, I'm just trying to think

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Speaker 1: of examples that used the media. And a high profile

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Speaker 1: case I was investigating, it's still unsolved and it basically

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Speaker 1: cost me my career was the abduction of three year

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Speaker 1: old William Tyrell, a young boy dressed in a spider

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Speaker 1: Man suit, from his grandparents' house on a small rural

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Speaker 1: town dead end street ten years ago. This crime occurred

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Speaker 1: when I took over the investigation. This was sort of

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Speaker 1: five months after his disappearance. A couple of things that

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Speaker 1: I did. I made a call that when I took

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Speaker 1: it over, I said, it's a homicide lead investigation because

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Speaker 1: there was speculation that was missing adventure. I wanted to

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Speaker 1: put pressure on the perpetrator by it's homicide. Looking at

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Speaker 1: it now, we're not looking at We're not going to

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Speaker 1: forget about this. And there weren't that many places in there,

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Speaker 1: So I said, anyone that was in a square kilometer

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Speaker 1: and had a map of the area from where William

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Speaker 1: disappeared that now hasn't come forward, I'd be wondering why

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Speaker 1: you haven't come forward? Makes me very suspicious. Why you

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Speaker 1: haven't come forward because we did canvases, door knocks and

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Speaker 1: public appeals and all that. The other strategy in that

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Speaker 1: particular investigation, and this was in consultation with doctor Sarah

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Speaker 1: Ull as well, we got a million dollar reward for

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Speaker 1: anyone that had information. That was the first time a

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Speaker 1: million dollar reward had been announced. Would you agree with

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Speaker 1: that type of approach? Do you see there's benefits in

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Speaker 1: that type of approach.

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Speaker 2: I would agree with that. The other when you have

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Speaker 2: a child. It reminds me of a case in which

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Speaker 2: the wrestler did is he said, we need to talk

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Speaker 2: with the mother because maybe he felt the suspect was

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Speaker 2: going to get in touch with her. And he did,

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Speaker 2: and he tried to she's alive and I've taken her

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Speaker 2: here there and all that, And so the mother was

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Speaker 2: able to on the anniversary. This was the case that

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Speaker 2: really dragged out. Actually they thought that they knew who

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Speaker 2: it was, and she said, I've been waiting for you

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Speaker 2: to call and took such surprise, you know, in other words,

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Speaker 2: use the technique that she didn't know necessarily if it was,

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Speaker 2: but but just saying waiting for you to call with

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Speaker 2: a great statement to be able to say and that's

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Speaker 2: what Bob.

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Speaker 1: That's yeah, that subtleness of it, but yeah, very powerful,

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Speaker 1: powerful way of encouraging.

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Speaker 2: So that's another way that you can use media. You

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Speaker 2: can find out, especially when you have a child that

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Speaker 2: you've got access to to a grantic and you know,

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Speaker 2: trying to and if you engage them and say this

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Speaker 2: is the way that we can, you can you can

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Speaker 2: help us. In other words, you can can and that

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Speaker 2: empowers them to be able to want to work with

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Speaker 2: you rather than fight you or you know how sometimes

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Speaker 2: people get annoyed with the media and so forth. You

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Speaker 2: don't want that. So and and they they played it

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Speaker 2: along and it got so that he actually broke down

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Speaker 2: with This was the I think this is the Meyerhoff case,

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Speaker 2: one of the early cases that Bob worked on that worked.

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Speaker 2: That works in another one they were able to they

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Speaker 2: couldn't figure out where the suspect would know about. It

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Speaker 2: was a missing teenager, I think, And it turned out

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Speaker 2: that it was the man that was babysitting the house

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Speaker 2: or watching the house, and he had written down a note.

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Speaker 2: They looked at the paper and realized there's indentation on

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Speaker 2: it and were able to get phone number. And that's

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Speaker 2: how they tracked them down, so that was another contact.

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Speaker 2: So there are all these little techniques that media is.

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Speaker 2: If you don't have any other suspects media, you've got

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Speaker 2: to try media or try some of these other strategies.

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Speaker 1: It's funny because I bought into that, and I can

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Speaker 1: attribute it back to reading John Douglas's book about the

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Speaker 1: use of the media, and there's other places that know,

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Speaker 1: we're not going to use the media, and I just say,

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Speaker 1: there's a tool. There was another interesting case. I wasn't

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Speaker 1: involved in it, but friends of mine were involved in.

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Speaker 1: It was a ripe in a very violent rape in

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Speaker 1: a small country town. Talking to a couple of hundred people.

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Speaker 1: They put a question there out in the town and

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Speaker 1: on what do you think should happen to the person

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Speaker 1: if we catch this person? There was yeah, two hundred

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Speaker 1: and ninety nine responses going, you know, you should be

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Speaker 1: doing time, blah blah blah. And there was one response, well,

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Speaker 1: everyone makes mistakes and get reguards and guess who the

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Speaker 1: person was. Oh look, oh look something standing out there

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Speaker 1: right right?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, well we're using social media.

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Speaker 1: Now, yeah, well you'll have to buy into that, yes, yep, Now.

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Speaker 2: That's really important and I saw. I have my undergraduate

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Speaker 2: students watching the social media and especially if they get

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Speaker 2: a suspect that we try to right away get the

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Speaker 2: information and run it through AI to see if we

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Speaker 2: can learn something. Because it's pretty clear that they have

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Speaker 2: to tell someone and they can brag about it, there

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Speaker 2: is that need to not keep it so secret, and

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Speaker 2: so they do social media. That's a new technique. I

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Speaker 2: think that's very, very useful.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's something that we've got to got to adopt

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Speaker 1: now because the power of the media is shifting to

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Speaker 1: that social media side, isn't it to get to get

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Speaker 1: that message out. It's definitely something that we've got to embrace.

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Speaker 1: And I want to talk about AI. But a little

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Speaker 1: a little bit later, if we could crime scenes? What

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Speaker 1: the what the crime scenes to you? Because I find

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Speaker 1: that another fascinating part of being a detective, interpreting the

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Speaker 1: crime scene, taking your time to really taking what you're

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Speaker 1: seeing and get a sense of what we're what we're

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Speaker 1: dealing with here.

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Speaker 2: Right Well, the crime scene, of course, is I think

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Speaker 2: is absolutely critical. So you can get you can certainly

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Speaker 2: get evidence. Douglas was very good at just going to

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Speaker 2: a crime scene and getting a feel as he would

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Speaker 2: say about what happened and what he would he would say,

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Speaker 2: you have to walk in the shoes of the killer

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Speaker 2: to really understand it. And I think that's true because

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Speaker 2: you get so familiar with cases and so just looking

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Speaker 2: at it that it's where they will take time just

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Speaker 2: to try to think of where was he? Where was

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Speaker 2: the victim? Because you do have a victim. That's why

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Speaker 2: the victimology is so critical. And what position is she

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Speaker 2: and what what might she be saying? Did she struggle?

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Speaker 2: Was there? You know, how was she located? How was

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Speaker 2: she targeted? Where did they encounter each other? Just a

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Speaker 2: lot of questions, So get in the line of the

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Speaker 2: investigator how this happened and why it happened, Why was

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Speaker 2: she targeted? Why did she become a victim? And I

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Speaker 2: think that's a one eighty degree turned from the way

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Speaker 2: it used to be. Where, Oh, she shouldn't have been there,

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Speaker 2: she shouldn't have been out walking. What does she think

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Speaker 2: was going to? You know, the blaming of the victim?

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately a lot of it started. You got to go

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Speaker 2: back to say where was he or where was the killer?

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Speaker 2: You know, what was he doing?

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Speaker 1: And on that blame blaming the victim. And I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you again, probably the work that you did change that

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Speaker 1: thinking too that yeah, it's and I think society has

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Speaker 1: moved on and we understand better, not just law enforcement,

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Speaker 1: but you know the comments, well, she shouldn't have been

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Speaker 1: out late at night and those and the impact that

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Speaker 1: that has on victims, making them feel like they're they're

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Speaker 1: to blame for the crime. And you would have seen

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Speaker 1: it as I saw it, dealing with victims where no

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Speaker 1: matter the circumstances, it always crosses their mind that they're

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Speaker 1: at fault, or even the families of murdered victims are

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Speaker 1: blaming themselves should have done something. And I'm always at

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Speaker 1: pain to explain, no, you're the victim here, you're you're

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Speaker 1: not not the offender. Don't blame lay the blame there.

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Speaker 1: Linking crimes. So, and we talked in Part one a

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Speaker 1: little bit about that and experiences I've had over here

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Speaker 1: in New South Wales. The courts we've got tendency and

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Speaker 1: coincidence evidence. So if we're trying to if there's a

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Speaker 1: serial rapists, we're looking at tendency and coincidence evidence. If

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Speaker 1: a certain type of crime, the mannerisms in which that

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Speaker 1: crime has been committed and then put that person before court.

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Speaker 1: Instead of charging the person with perhaps five offenses, we

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Speaker 1: might put ten offenses on him because the other crimes

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Speaker 1: are so strikingly similar. Can you talk us your understanding

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Speaker 1: and your knowledge of what you look for when you're

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Speaker 1: trying to determine if crimes are linked.

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Speaker 2: Well, the linking of crimes was something that I remember

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Speaker 2: Bary Hazel would spend a lot of time on looking.

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Speaker 2: He would take he had to have a case where

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Speaker 2: there are at least ten crimes, and he would look

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Speaker 2: at the first, the middle, and the last crime and

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Speaker 2: see what were the common themes there. And that's what

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Speaker 2: a lot of his research was because he was interested

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Speaker 2: in Sometimes it changed, as I said before, the m

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Speaker 2: OL change, the method of operation change, but not necessarily

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Speaker 2: the signature. So the linkage part sick is the age?

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Speaker 2: What is there a certain age? Is a certain gender?

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Speaker 2: You know? Is it a child? Is it an adolescent?

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Speaker 2: Is it a because that will give you some idea

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Speaker 2: of what age you're looking for. Also, race is important

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Speaker 2: because more likely than not it's going to be same race.

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Speaker 2: It's it doesn't have to be, but if you want

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Speaker 2: just more than fifty percent it's going to be that.

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Speaker 2: So that can give you that the age of the

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Speaker 2: person you're looking for, the gender, the race. Then then

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Speaker 2: you would look if you're at the crime scene, then

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Speaker 2: you're going to be able to look and see what

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Speaker 2: was the weapon. But weapon doesn't weapon. They can use

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Speaker 2: multiple weapons, so weapon isn't always a good indicator, but

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Speaker 2: it will tell you if it was hands, you know,

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Speaker 2: blunt force trauma, or whether it was gone or a knife.

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Speaker 2: Certain cultural groups tend to, you know, use we always

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Speaker 2: go back to the Mad Bomber. I don't know that

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Speaker 2: case anyway that profile that it would because he would

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Speaker 2: be Middle Eastern because they tended to use bombs, and

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Speaker 2: this was now bomber. Obviously he was in New York

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Speaker 2: City buying, so sometimes that he would even be able

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Speaker 2: to be that precise, and then the personality features. Isn't

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Speaker 2: that clean? Crimes in the deep pickup thing nick it

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Speaker 2: the way that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: I would look at the crime scenes, including where the body,

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Speaker 1: because sometimes the body is not where the actual murder

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Speaker 1: has occurred, but whether a weapon was introduced, if it

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Speaker 1: was brought there, or there's some planning that's gone into it.

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Speaker 1: The way the body is disposed of. Quite often that

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Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily have to be a serial killing, but

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Speaker 1: I can see where there's a panic in the way

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Speaker 1: that the body's been disposed of. So the crime that's

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Speaker 1: telling me that the crime it wasn't planned, it escalated.

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Speaker 1: So you're looking for something that triggered that and the

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Speaker 1: way that the body has been disposed of, because quite

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Speaker 1: often that's that's the unraveling of the offender, because it's

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Speaker 1: they leave a trial like tracking an elephant through the

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Speaker 1: snowl What what do you look at in terms of

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Speaker 1: the way the body is disposed of and the injuries

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Speaker 1: to the body. So digging deep into that, what type

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Speaker 1: of thing are you looking at to there?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think that any bruising that you see, it's

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Speaker 2: going to be anger. I mean I something has triggered

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Speaker 2: either it's somebody else and he's using this as what

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Speaker 2: we call a displacement. He's angry why it's then so

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Speaker 2: he takes it out on this other person. Elderly victims

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Speaker 2: are often being a substitute for somebody that they knew

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Speaker 2: in their childhood. That's an unusual Although there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of crime against the elderly physical. I think the other

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Speaker 2: important factor is that you mentioned is whether the body

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Speaker 2: was moved, how long did they spend with the body?

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Speaker 2: That's important, and that's going to give you a lot

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Speaker 2: of the fantasy and that you can pretty much figure

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Speaker 2: out what is going on in the mind. If you

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Speaker 2: think it's a fantasy, usually it is and a sexual homicide.

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Speaker 2: He's acting out something's not over and over, So that's important.

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Speaker 2: What else, let's see whether it's been is it posed

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Speaker 2: as the body posed? The other thing is is it

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Speaker 2: just discarded? Is it just dumped as a word that

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Speaker 2: they said, just by the side of the road, in

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Speaker 2: other words, just discarded to no emotional attachment of any

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Speaker 2: kind is there? And or is that just showing what

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Speaker 2: he thinks of that type of person. I'm just going

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Speaker 2: to give you an example that I thought in determining

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Speaker 2: the size, the size of the offender, if he's big, tall, whatever.

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Speaker 2: And then on the Joe Bet case, the first boy

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Speaker 2: was just left right kind of off the road. The

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Speaker 2: second body was found inside the forest and woods. And

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Speaker 2: what was important there is there are two footprints going

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Speaker 2: set of footprints going in, only one coming back. So

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Speaker 2: what that said, Yeah, so what that said is that

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Speaker 2: he was not able to carry the victim in, so

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Speaker 2: he marched him in, did what he did to him,

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Speaker 2: and then came up.

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Speaker 1: I like that again, good detective work. Yeah, it seems simple,

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Speaker 1: but these are the little things that can be missed.

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Speaker 1: And I think I spent some time in the early

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Speaker 1: hours of the morning with someone trying to show me

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Speaker 1: where he disposed of a body ten years before. And

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Speaker 1: we pulled up there. It's dark, it was in the

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Speaker 1: National Park, and he walked in a certain distance and

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Speaker 1: he walked hundreds of meters or one hundred and fifty meters,

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Speaker 1: which is a long way to carry a body. He was, genuinely,

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Speaker 1: I believe, trying to tell us where he disposed of

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Speaker 1: the body in a shallow grave. We had no success.

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Speaker 1: We searched the area that he indicated, and then we

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Speaker 1: tried something. We put him in the actual car that

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Speaker 1: he was driving at the time. We managed to get

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Speaker 1: access to that at the time he was disposing of

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Speaker 1: the body, and we put a manequin. The rescue squad

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Speaker 1: uses eighty kilos. It's the weight of a body, a

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Speaker 1: limp body, put it in the boot of the car,

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Speaker 1: drove down to the location and then said to him, look,

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Speaker 1: we've got something in the boot. You show us how

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Speaker 1: you where you think you took this body in the dark,

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Speaker 1: in the bush, and how difficult it was, And that

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Speaker 1: made him sort of rethink about the distance in which

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Speaker 1: he carried it and it was in fact not one

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Speaker 1: hundred meters in from the road, that was only about

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Speaker 1: twenty five meters in from the road.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, very good.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I look at homicide. Some homicides are very simple

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Speaker 1: to solve. The more difficult ones. I look at opportunity, capability,

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Speaker 1: and motive. There are three factors that I fit him

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Speaker 1: got You might have literally hundreds of persons of interest,

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Speaker 1: and I look at opportunity, I can tick that off

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Speaker 1: pretty easy. If the person's in prison, they haven't committed

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Speaker 1: that crime, right. Capability looking at is this person capable

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Speaker 1: physically capable of committing the crime? Or does this person

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Speaker 1: have access to the type of weapons? So that's sort

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Speaker 1: of a little bit more subjective. That motive is always.

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Speaker 1: Motive is the one that is always. I think motive

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Speaker 1: points you in the direction when you're looking for a suspect.

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Speaker 1: What's your thoughts on motive, Because if one person understands motive,

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Speaker 1: it would be you.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean that that's crucial. Now you don't

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Speaker 2: have to prove it in court, but they always want

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Speaker 2: you to, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they want the faction in the narrative. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they don't want you going the course. I don't

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Speaker 2: any idea why he did this. I mean, that's the

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Speaker 2: last thing that you want to say. You want to

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Speaker 2: have some idea or at least have some what we

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Speaker 2: call hypotheses that are that are going to be plausible

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Speaker 2: that or he will understand. Yeah, because a lot of

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Speaker 2: times they may say this is just a horrible murder

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Speaker 2: because maybe there's been dismemberment. Dismemberment can sometimes be because

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Speaker 2: they can't carry the body, they can't get it to

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Speaker 2: another place. And that's so it's it's more of a

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Speaker 2: practical motive, if you will, of why that happened, rather

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Speaker 2: than any deep seated psychological rationale. Because I did a

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Speaker 2: case like that where he it was he had really

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Speaker 2: cut the body up and he just left he just

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Speaker 2: left it all because he couldn't. He tried putting him

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Speaker 2: in bags, and I mean it was so I always

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Speaker 2: remember that to say, don't go beyond any un reasonable

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Speaker 2: explanation kind of thing. So I think that that's really

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Speaker 2: really important as a motive, is that we have four

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Speaker 2: categories of motive. The first one is criminal enterprise. Is

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Speaker 2: this something that like a hit or an insurance killing,

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Speaker 2: or something that's going to be more gun weapon kind

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Speaker 2: of thing, or is it The biggest category is more

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Speaker 2: the personal cause, in other words, is this personal to

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Speaker 2: the person. They are about fourteen categories there of whether

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Speaker 2: it's vene or whether it's not sexual, sexual as a whole,

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Speaker 2: separate unit. And then the fourth is group cause. But

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Speaker 2: the personal cause, as I said, we have about twelve

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Speaker 2: or fourteen categories that to the person, and I think

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Speaker 2: they make sense. It could be domestic, it could be

400
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Speaker 2: a variety of others. But that's why we do the

401
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Speaker 2: studies we're doing. We're doing one now on Indigenous murdered

402
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Speaker 2: and missing men and comparing them to a group we've

403
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Speaker 2: done on women. Why did they do this in their culture?

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Speaker 2: So I do think that that's something that's really important

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Speaker 2: to do to get that motive.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's interesting and the understanding that you're given

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Speaker 1: and people quite often they want it all tied up

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Speaker 1: in a bow. This is what's happened, and this is

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Speaker 1: the motive. And again I learned a lot from dealings

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Speaker 1: with Sarah Yule in that and even reference to the

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Speaker 1: William Tyrell case that she said, the person that's committed

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Speaker 1: this crime mightn't even know why they've committed this crime. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's really hard to nail down the motive

414
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Speaker 1: on the crime like that a three year old child.

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Speaker 1: The public wanted all to be a pedophile, a scary person.

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Speaker 1: That seems to be what the public perceived if a

417
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Speaker 1: three year old child's disappeared. But Sarah was always at

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Speaker 1: pains to point out to me when we're working the

419
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Speaker 1: case that the person responsible for the case mightn't even

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Speaker 1: know why.

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Speaker 2: They may not know why. That was in mind Hunter,

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Speaker 2: that was one of the cases that they did and

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Speaker 2: Mighty Russell. They so they said, we're here to study

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Speaker 2: men and why they do what they do. And he says,

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Speaker 2: I hope you can tell me why I did what

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Speaker 2: I did. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's great, very honest.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, you get you sit down in an interview room

428
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Speaker 1: and you're interviewing someone and they've got all the detail

429
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Speaker 1: and why did you do it? I'm not really sure

430
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Speaker 1: it's yeah, fascinating, fascinating, fascinating will serial killing and mass

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Speaker 1: killings I'm thinking here and I haven't got the facts

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Speaker 1: and figures in front of me, but mass killing seem

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Speaker 1: to be more prominent than serial killing in current current times.

434
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 1: Do you is that something that you're a trend that

435
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:44,439
Speaker 1: you've seen or.

436
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 2: Yes, that's what I said. You're right that serial killings.

437
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 2: That's why I think we don't hear about them. I

438
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 2: don't think they're being done as much as that more

439
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 2: people are moving into mass shootings, especially shootings, which makes

440
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,120
Speaker 2: every bit at risk. You know, you can be out

441
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 2: of the grocery store, or you could be in the

442
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:05,400
Speaker 2: mall and you've got mass shooting and everybody gets hit.

443
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:10,400
Speaker 2: So it's I think it's it's a very much more

444
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 2: fearful for the average person than the cereal Most people think, well,

445
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 2: I don't think any I'm going to encounter or any

446
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 2: serial killer, because they usually try to get some kind

447
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 2: of conversation going, you know, and some kind of relationship,

448
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 2: whereas a mass shooting doesn't. It's all very impersonal.

449
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 1: And what in the work that you can do, like

450
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 1: I know over here for that type of the lone

451
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:37,880
Speaker 1: wolf situation ideology where there's ideology crossing too, you know action,

452
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 1: what type of views do you have on the prevention

453
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 1: of that type of crime.

454
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 2: Well, right now you're venturing into an area we're looking

455
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 2: at and that's a school shooter. We're having a terrible

456
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 2: school shooter, and so we almost think that's a separate

457
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 2: We're looking at a whole data set to see if

458
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 2: we can justify that the it's separate from a weight

459
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 2: supremist or an extremist or an insult that there's something

460
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 2: unique there. So we've got about thirty cases we're going

461
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 2: to look at and run through AI to see if

462
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 2: we can come up with something because I think you're

463
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 2: onto something and we're onto it too.

464
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, that would be interesting if you see a pattern

465
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,959
Speaker 1: emerging and you look back when the crime's being committed,

466
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 1: and you look back and you think red flag, red flag,

467
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 1: red flag. But to stop that happening, we've got to

468
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 1: identify the seriousness of the offense of I think Laura

469
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 1: Richard's made the point with stalking. If someone's been in

470
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 1: a relationship and he's being stalked by a person that

471
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: they've been in an intimate relationship with and that person

472
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 1: then makes a threat to kill that person. There's a

473
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 1: fifty to fifty chance that'll be carried out, so we

474
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 1: look at yes. So I always thought stalking was a

475
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,199
Speaker 1: really dangerous crime that we didn't jump on with the

476
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 1: full weight of the law that needed or given the importance,

477
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: because I think it tells me something about the mindset

478
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,919
Speaker 1: of a person that's prepared to stalk another person.

479
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:11,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very dangerous, and I'm doing a case right now.

480
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:17,439
Speaker 2: Quadruple killing horrible. And it was so clear it was

481
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 2: sexual jealousy that we're not sure was even possible that

482
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 2: she We haven't had any confirmation and we won't because

483
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,920
Speaker 2: of course she was murdered. But this whole matter, when

484
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 2: you look at a pattern that's a common pattern in

485
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 2: these domestic killings, that it's it's a paranoia, is suspicious

486
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 2: that the partner is having, you know, some kind of

487
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 2: affair with somebody else. So that is really I would

488
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 2: agree that it's very and it's hard to stop. You

489
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 2: can't stop it. The only way you stop it is

490
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 2: you can't in any way encourage it, and you have

491
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 2: to almost disappear. In that particular case, he had done

492
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 2: that to an earlier partner, and she were two years,

493
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,360
Speaker 2: went underground nobody, she gave her information out, didn't let

494
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 2: anybody know where she was. That's what it took for her.

495
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:14,360
Speaker 2: And then of course he then gets into this other

496
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 2: relationship and he ends up killing and killing anybody that

497
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 2: was guarding her. That was you know, she had a

498
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 2: detective order out. I mean, she did everything that she

499
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 2: possibly could.

500
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. I look, we've had a spate of domestic related murders,

501
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 1: and quite often it's that jilted lover or jilted partner

502
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: and ends up in someone being killed. We've had a

503
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: real spade of them at the moment in this country.

504
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 1: But I think we've got to start. We're changing. We're

505
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: bought in new legislation coercive control, which I think is

506
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: a step in the right direction. And that's because police

507
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: hands were tied in that you'd turn up to a

508
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: domestic situation where there hasn't been the physical assault. What

509
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 1: can we charge this person with now? Coercive control because

510
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: again indicators that lead up to the eventual act, which

511
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 1: tends to be a very violent, violent crime.

512
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 2: Sure. Well, the other thing, just to go back to

513
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 2: that case, that I'm working on now. Sheeve was so

514
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 2: scared she wanted to carry a little knife to protect herself,

515
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 2: and because she was on probation for another matter, they said, no,

516
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 2: you can't have it. She might have been able to

517
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 2: have protected herself when he comes in because he changes weapons,

518
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 2: he changes from gun to knife, so the personal the

519
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 2: use of a knife is so much more personal, and

520
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 2: you might have been able to pull that in and

521
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 2: saved herself. So it's awful.

522
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 1: Another question I want I want to ask you that

523
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: I get asked a lot, and I think you've got

524
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: a lot more you know, understanding of it than myself.

525
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: Nature or nurture, like people often often raise that with me,

526
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:00,479
Speaker 1: is a homicide to take the Do you think it

527
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: was the environment or do you think that will bone that? Why? What?

528
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: What's your what's your type natural nurture.

529
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 2: I don't think that it's genetic. I don't that there's

530
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 2: any genetic link. But they've grown up in an atmosphere.

531
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 2: If they've grown up in an atmosphere where there is

532
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 2: role modeling, if you will uh that that can be

533
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 2: very dangerous and that they can they can learn, you know,

534
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 2: it's what we kind of call from a learning if

535
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 2: they've been abuse, say, our father can be very aggressive

536
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 2: and very physically damaging to his son, and especially if

537
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 2: he's targeted as the favored child, not favor necessarily positively

538
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 2: that I think environment is very very important. As to

539
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 2: the nature part, I think not so much. But they've

540
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 2: never had I've never seen any studies that have compermed it.

541
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 2: It's a very would be very hard to do that.

542
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 2: So I'm much more that the environment, environment, and especially

543
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 2: the people that they are around. Yeah, and that they

544
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 2: themselves have been traumatized in some way that has stuck

545
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 2: with them. Don't forget. We use the theory that it's

546
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 2: a fantasy that gets nurtured and kind of acted out

547
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 2: and it's got to come from somewhere, and that it

548
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 2: could come from something that happened to them, and that

549
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 2: that's a way that they're expressing it.

550
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 1: Okay, I had I'm not sure if you're familiar with

551
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: the work of James Fallon, the neuroscientists that did pet

552
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 1: scans of the people that were considered psychopaths, including some

553
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 1: serial killers. He made the observation he did pet scans

554
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 1: on the brains and the frontal cortex or whatever and

555
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 1: clearly I'm not a brain expert, but said there was

556
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 1: a pattern that he would see in people that have

557
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 1: been identified as psycho paths, and he needed something to

558
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 1: cross reference the study, so he got a PET scan

559
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 1: done of his own brain and other people he knew

560
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: he had the same predisposition of some of the psychopaths

561
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: that whose brains that pet scan was done on. But

562
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 1: he came to the conclusion. I found this interesting. He

563
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 1: came to the conclusion that his environment that he grew

564
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 1: up in those nurturing years from birth to the age

565
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: of three, those crucial years, was in a loving, caring environment.

566
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 1: And then he's looking at these other ones that have

567
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 1: acted out as a psychopath as he would think and

568
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: turned into the trust killers have grown up in that

569
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 1: traumatic environment when there wasn't love, there wasn't nurturing and

570
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: all that. And so that his take on it was

571
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: almost like a combination, and it seemed to make sense

572
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 1: what he was saying there, and it ties into what

573
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: you're saying about the environment having a part in.

574
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 2: It, right right. I just think it's critical, and the

575
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 2: trauma piece is critical too. But I think that if

576
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 2: he's got some good research that you can't ignore it.

577
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: You know.

578
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 2: That's really good. That's an addition to the feit.

579
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well it was. It was interesting. You've mentioned

580
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: a AI a lot, and yeah, I'd like to think

581
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 1: I embraced technology. I'm coming along to that thinking I've

582
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: recently started to delve into AI and a lot of

583
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: stuff that I'm doing, and I keep reflecting back, and

584
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: I've been out of the police for four or so

585
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: years and I'm reflecting back. How handy that would be.

586
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: You've referenced a lot. Can you just talk to us

587
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 1: about how you're using AI and what you're seeing in

588
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: contemporary law enforcement, how they're using AI these days.

589
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 2: Well, we're using it, mister Whitskoll, machine learning because it

590
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 2: is the machine computer is a machine and we're looking

591
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 2: at what we call topic modeling that when you enter,

592
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 2: you put in the data, you're going to get patterns

593
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,040
Speaker 2: that come out. Now, we talked, we've talked about a

594
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 2: lot patterned. But this doesn't like in five minutes where

595
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 2: we might have taken five years. We did that a

596
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 2: comparison with a group out in Kansas, and we said,

597
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 2: you send us and we do this for a threat assessment,

598
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 2: you know, Leice will get in somebody saying I'm going

599
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 2: to blow up a building or I'm going to kill somebody,

600
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 2: and that's really scary and they have to decide. So

601
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 2: I said, send us a case as much data as

602
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 2: you can, and we'll run it through our algorithm. And

603
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 2: they did, and it took fifteen minutes. We sent back back.

604
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 2: What we found as terms of this is it was

605
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,359
Speaker 2: a serious case where they weren't sure if this guy

606
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 2: was crazy quote quote or whether he was really going

607
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 2: to kill somebody, and they had decided that it was

608
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 2: not a threat, so we ran it took fifteen minutes.

609
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 2: They had taken almost fifteen months to look at it.

610
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 2: They the poor woman that collapse you' I can't believe

611
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 2: you did in fifteen minutes, but came up with many

612
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 2: of you. I felt badly for her, but it came

613
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 2: with the other kinds of things that they hadn't thought of.

614
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 2: So we sent it back to them and said, maybe

615
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:21,399
Speaker 2: you better keep this and if he gives you another threat,

616
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 2: because he had given the multiple threats, this wasn't just

617
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 2: slated one, that maybe you should take it seriously and

618
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 2: let us know if there's anything. So that was just

619
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,320
Speaker 2: an example of how fast we were able to drub

620
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 2: the material that they had taken so long. So it's

621
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 2: wonderful if you've got a large amount of data that

622
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 2: you want to look at very quickly and if you

623
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 2: get the right algorithm, I mean that that's your key.

624
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: You've got to have that, and then it just whips

625
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 2: through the data. So we've looked at twenty three murderers manifestos,

626
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 2: some of them you know Rogers, any of the they're

627
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 2: on the lists. And now when we get a case,

628
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 2: we could run the single case as comparison to the

629
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 2: thirty twenty three that we have, and that will tell

630
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,359
Speaker 2: us what we're looking for. The whole thing is are

631
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 2: they telling the truth? That's our next step is when

632
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 2: we get data or they do an interview, are they

633
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,359
Speaker 2: telling us the truth? They're version of the truth. That's

634
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,720
Speaker 2: our next step. We have to come up with the algorithm. There.

635
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,439
Speaker 2: We're going to take some court testimony that was done

636
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 2: under oath. People'll start with the Menendez case and see

637
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 2: whether they were the truth kind of thing. So that's

638
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 2: where it's going.

639
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 1: It's something that we have to doing. Bryce, isn't I

640
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: started in homicide and it was CODs that was. Yeah,

641
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: there was CODs that we alphabetically the suspects information and

642
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 1: all that and where we've got to now.

643
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we have to go with it. I don't

644
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 2: think we can ignore it. I mean, everybody is into

645
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 2: it so and it's it should be not fun, but

646
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 2: it should be looked at as just another tool, another technique,

647
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 2: and we shouldn't say have going to do it.

648
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it make sense reflecting on your career, some

649
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 1: of the people that you've come into contact with, and

650
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 1: there was I had a quote losing the paperwork here,

651
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,280
Speaker 1: but I had a quote from when you first started

652
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 1: hearing the interviews that John Douglas and the team we're

653
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 1: doing with some of the nia notorious serial killers, like

654
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 1: eavesdropping on the rawest fringes of humanity. What can you

655
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 1: I would imagine that would have been fascinating. What are

656
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,240
Speaker 1: some of the people that or some of the cases

657
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: you've looked at that you you just you think memorable,

658
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: not for any particular reason, but just things that have

659
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 1: stood that to you in the time that you've been

660
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:04,359
Speaker 1: working in the field, that you have.

661
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 2: Well, it's one of the things I always wondered about,

662
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 2: but maybe I shouldn't is. And again I go back

663
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 2: to Joe Bart. He was classic for that. He was

664
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 2: one of our first is. They would do the horrendous

665
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 2: killing and then they might go and have dinner, or

666
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 2: have breakfast, or go to sleep. You know, it was like,

667
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 2: oh nothing, It didn't seem to impact on them. And

668
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,839
Speaker 2: I remember Joe Bert saying in the interview we did

669
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 2: with him, he said, you know, that's what the prosecutor said,

670
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,359
Speaker 2: is how callous could it be? And he said it

671
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 2: was so they admitted. I think that gets to your

672
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:45,760
Speaker 2: point about the psychopathic quality that they don't have any empathy.

673
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 2: They're unable. So is that something that is genetic nature

674
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 2: versus do they just learn it or do they so

675
00:38:56,040 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 2: cold to it? But that's what Kemper'd say, that they

676
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,359
Speaker 2: would go home and sleep, I remember, or they would

677
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 2: talk about how hard it was to kill someone, that

678
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,879
Speaker 2: that it took a lot of energy. Oh yeah, no,

679
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 2: I mean we have a horrible case here up in

680
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 2: Idaho Univerversity where this one person killed four young women,

681
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:24,439
Speaker 2: three women and a man. He did it all within

682
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,919
Speaker 2: a very short time. I mean that took a lot

683
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 2: of They haven't had the trial yet. They have a suspect,

684
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,839
Speaker 2: but that takes a lot of energy and a lot

685
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 2: of time, and I don't think we think in those

686
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 2: terms that we should be more just very very logical

687
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 2: about it and how can they do that? You know,

688
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 2: that's always been when you say, what would surprise me?

689
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,759
Speaker 2: That that that is, that's that did, what they would

690
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,800
Speaker 2: do afterwards, or that how they would keep the souvenirs

691
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,360
Speaker 2: and what they would do with them, And it was

692
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 2: just no can of what that meant to the family

693
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 2: or what that meant, you know, it did that was

694
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 2: used to that.

695
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 1: The bt K killer. What were you dealings or understanding

696
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 1: we've that particular case and that particular person.

697
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 2: Well, no, it was needing to know that. I needed

698
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 2: to know that. And when and doing other interviews, we

699
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 2: would ask the same thing, what did you do right after?

700
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 2: That was a new question. A lot of times they

701
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 2: weren't thinking about that. Obviously, they were thinking about was

702
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 2: there any evidence left or something to make their case.

703
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 2: But this is a more human kind of psychological thing

704
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:44,839
Speaker 2: of what kind of behavior do they show and then

705
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:47,359
Speaker 2: how fast would they do another crime? Because we were

706
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 2: looking at cases and the escalation is clearly there. I

707
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,319
Speaker 2: think That's another major point that we found is that

708
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 2: how fast the escalation when was one victim not enough?

709
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 2: I think the other thing is when there would be

710
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,800
Speaker 2: multiple victims at the same time, How did that happen?

711
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 2: Number one case, two little girls or two seven year

712
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 2: old girls and they're both dead and post how did

713
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 2: one person do it? It turned out, and it took

714
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 2: a long time. He did two more murders before able

715
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 2: to finally. He would always read first until finally one

716
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,320
Speaker 2: read victim survived, and that's how they're able to get.

717
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 1: The nature of the crimes that seen in your time.

718
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 1: One thing that I was always at pains without understanding

719
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: the depth of the psychology of it than the mindset

720
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 1: of the people as you do. But I was always

721
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 1: at pains when I'm doing briefings on murder investigations and

722
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 1: people would go, but why would you do this if

723
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: you've done that? And I would say, you're trying to

724
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 1: put a rational thought into an irrational action or an

725
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 1: irrational mindset, because because I used to get frustrated where

726
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 1: you talk about hypothesis and you're sitting around the briefing

727
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 1: room and you're going, Okay, maybe this happened, but I

728
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,479
Speaker 1: couldn't have because he made a phone call ten minutes later.

729
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking, you're giving the rational thought to a

730
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 1: totally irrational act or crime. Do you subscribe to my

731
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:22,319
Speaker 1: thought process there?

732
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 2: And absolutely you said it perfectly, You absolutely did. Is

733
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 2: that How can we in our logic make sense out

734
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:31,879
Speaker 2: of it?

735
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: Yeah?

736
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 2: You can't. That's why we've got to get into what

737
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 2: is driving that thought? What is driving it? Because the

738
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 2: thought is what drives the behavior. So we have to

739
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 2: get into the thought. Not that we know what he did, right,

740
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 2: We know what he did, we know the act, but

741
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:52,240
Speaker 2: we don't know the thought.

742
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. Interesting, Interesting, getting how do we get to that? Interesting?

743
00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:00,400
Speaker 1: Getting your take on it. The other thing that's come up,

744
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 1: or two things I'll just a touch on these. A

745
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:06,919
Speaker 1: lot of the people that you've dealt with, and I've

746
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 1: seen it in my own investigation career, that upbringing in

747
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 1: the resentment to the mother, the bond between what turns

748
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 1: out to be this killer and what's taken place with

749
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 1: the mother. It seems to come up time and time again.

750
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 1: Thoughts on that situation, well, the mother.

751
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 2: And the father, the whole issue of parenting. It was

752
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:31,839
Speaker 2: interesting in the study, you know, we did thirty six

753
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:35,280
Speaker 2: serial killers. But what we found is that very often

754
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,280
Speaker 2: the family would disrupt around when the boy was around

755
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 2: adolescent and at a very critical time, I think for

756
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 2: not only boys, girls too, And so they would always

757
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:48,319
Speaker 2: complain about the mother and they had always wanted to

758
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:50,320
Speaker 2: be with the father. Well, the problem was the father

759
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 2: deserted them, right, he was the absent father. So then

760
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 2: they only have the mother to blame. So I would

761
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 2: often get annoyed early on. We would talk about the

762
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 2: Domino mothers. Well, she was the only parent. She had

763
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 2: to be both mother and father and discipline. And I said,

764
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 2: they have no appreciation.

765
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 1: That makes sense, you know.

766
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 2: So I think we I wanted people to be a

767
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 2: little careful about what they said about the bad mother,

768
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 2: because I think it was unfair in some cases. No,

769
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 2: maybe not all cases, but certainly in some cases. And

770
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 2: some mothers tried to do the right thing. They saw

771
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 2: their son having this odd behavior and they would take

772
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 2: them to the psychiatrists, and a psychiatrist would say, oh,

773
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 2: he'll grow out of it, he's just it's just that

774
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 2: lesson thing. Well that's no help, you know, And and

775
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 2: so what would I try to do? This is the

776
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 2: other area that I think we have to pay more

777
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:49,480
Speaker 2: attention to is how to help people who get these cases,

778
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:53,840
Speaker 2: whether they're clinicians or social workers, whatever they are, is

779
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 2: to pay attention to it and get some consultation. In

780
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 2: other words, if you can't answer, and you really think

781
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 2: that this is odd, but you don't know what to say,

782
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 2: there are plenty of people that will be happy to

783
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 2: do a consult you know, I do them all the

784
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 2: time to help people, just to you know, this is

785
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 2: this bad behavior, is this dangerous behavior, or is this

786
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:19,240
Speaker 2: behavior that will resolve, you know, by the next couple

787
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 2: of years. Well, that's really important because people don't know

788
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 2: to how to handle the young adolescent. The emerging adult,

789
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 2: I think is the correct term we should use now.

790
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:33,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and you quite rightly identified that that's such

791
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 1: a crucial stage in development, isn't it where life can

792
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:39,959
Speaker 1: go off in different directions that that lescence stage.

793
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 2: And hormones are changing. We cannot deny that fast grown

794
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 2: is going certainly for the young male. And that's that's

795
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 2: that which is aggression, right, It's normal, So we shouldn't

796
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:58,440
Speaker 2: be afraid of it. If it gets off on the

797
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:00,920
Speaker 2: wrong track, we better be careful. We have a lot

798
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 2: of cases here in the States where the parents and

799
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 2: the schools get concerned and they won't do anything. They've

800
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 2: got to do something. They can't put guns, give their

801
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:10,439
Speaker 2: kids guns.

802
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I really because we're watching from this country and

803
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 1: we're just horrified with the school shooting. So I think

804
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 1: it's fantastic that you're looking into that aspect of it,

805
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: because it's just got it's got to stop. It's horrendous,

806
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:29,800
Speaker 1: such a horrendous, horrendous crime. The people that ingratiate themselves

807
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 1: into investigations, that's another thing that I've seen, whether it's

808
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:34,799
Speaker 1: a murder investigation or it could be something at a

809
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 1: lower level. People that and I've always thought it's just

810
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,359
Speaker 1: a curiosity they want to know what's in or they're

811
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:43,839
Speaker 1: reflecting on their crime. Look at all the drama I've cause,

812
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,800
Speaker 1: did you encounter that a lot during during your studies

813
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 1: and your work.

814
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 2: Trying to think of whether there certainly was a great

815
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 2: deal of what we call narcissism, kind of taking pride

816
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 2: in these horrible things that they were doing. So I

817
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 2: think that that plays a bril in it that I

818
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 2: don't know how much that plays into their denial. You

819
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 2: know how many chapels say, oh, I don't know why

820
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:11,759
Speaker 2: I did what I did. Well, yeah, maybe you do

821
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 2: know what you did and you're just saying that that's

822
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 2: what we have to get at. But I do think

823
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 2: that there is the narcissism that they I can think

824
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 2: of a number of cases where they did it because

825
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 2: they felt they were entitled to be able to do

826
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 2: it and get away with it. I think the boldness.

827
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 2: I've had a couple of cases, just in rape cases

828
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:40,799
Speaker 2: where the boldness has astounded me that they felt they

829
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 2: could just get away with it.

830
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,399
Speaker 1: They didn't what was that base on the tournament or

831
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 1: just they.

832
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 2: We had we had a case where the the it

833
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 2: was a rape and he liked elderly women. He went

834
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 2: into a hospital and he went on the eighth floor.

835
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 2: He got a victim and when the nurse came and

836
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 2: said who are you and he said, I'm a nursing student.

837
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 2: I mean, he lied, And then he goes to the

838
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 2: seventh floor and that time he says that he's a

839
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,799
Speaker 2: family member. This is like one in the morning, so yeah,

840
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 2: very quiet, and he gets to the sixth floor before

841
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,840
Speaker 2: finally security comes, and what does he do with security.

842
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 2: He said, he drives a hit him. He have saltson.

843
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 1: Okay, So I mean that.

844
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,480
Speaker 2: That boldness, isn't it in the hospital.

845
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 1: Well, you've touched on one of our states most notorious

846
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 1: serial killers, and a lot of people that I worked

847
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:41,280
Speaker 1: with worked the case was the granny killer and murdered

848
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 1: six women and all elderly ladies living in a certain

849
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:52,799
Speaker 1: area in Sydney, a fairly affluent area in Sydney. And

850
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:55,960
Speaker 1: he was They got on to him because he was

851
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 1: a pie salesman and he went to a nursing home

852
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:03,799
Speaker 1: and was sexually assaulted one of the elderly victims. And

853
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 1: that sort of a lot more layers to it than that,

854
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:08,919
Speaker 1: but that led it led it to tracking him down.

855
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 1: But he had issues with his mother that her promiscurity,

856
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 1: I believe it was. And the ladies that he attacked,

857
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 1: he would pull their underwear down and display them in

858
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 1: vulnerable positions and leave their bodies their And yeah, I

859
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 1: think that changed the way because that would have it

860
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 1: was during the eighties. The way that we approach the

861
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 1: criminal investigation taught us how to investigate serial killing because

862
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 1: it was happening so frequently and it was just a

863
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 1: hop profile situation. I want to ask you mindful of

864
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:47,440
Speaker 1: the time, but I just want to wrap up with

865
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 1: the type of work that you've done and not done

866
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 1: you're still doing clearly and full credit to you. It's

867
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:58,239
Speaker 1: been an absolutely amazing career. How do you keep your

868
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 1: faith in humanity? Because sitting down and chatting to you, you

869
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:06,280
Speaker 1: come across like you can laugh, you can smile, you've

870
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 1: look like you've you're enjoying life. And how have you

871
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 1: managed to step away or not be destroyed by the

872
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 1: evil darkness that you've seen during your career.

873
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:22,880
Speaker 2: No, that's a very fair question, but I think that

874
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 2: as a nurse we're trained to separate ourselves from terrible situations.

875
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 2: You know, we see all disease and sadness and so forth.

876
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 2: So you have to be able to separate out and

877
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:40,960
Speaker 2: not let it that. That said doesn't mean that you

878
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:44,359
Speaker 2: don't think about the cases. Certainly I do, and some

879
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 2: of them, really child cases really are are hard to take.

880
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 2: But I think that that's where you have to be trained.

881
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 2: You have to be able to separate well you yourself

882
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 2: as a you can't go taking your cases home at

883
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:02,919
Speaker 2: night or you'd be sleeping much so I think that

884
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:04,759
Speaker 2: that's something you have to learn and you have to

885
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 2: be trained for, and that's what I do. The other

886
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 2: thing is I do teaching. I try to translate what

887
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:16,880
Speaker 2: I'm doing for younger generations to be able to carry

888
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:19,759
Speaker 2: on and to understand so we can stamp out some

889
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 2: of this. That's where I get most of my uh,

890
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:26,839
Speaker 2: that's where I think that. I like to think that

891
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 2: I'm doing something really good.

892
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 1: I get that, and it's nourishing, nourishing for you because

893
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:36,359
Speaker 1: it is a dark world, but you can you can

894
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 1: work it and come out come out relatively unscathed. I

895
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 1: found that that you can correct me if I'm wrong.

896
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:47,279
Speaker 1: But I read somewhere that you had some of the

897
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 1: notorious serial killers sending you Christmas.

898
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 2: Cards Easter cards too.

899
00:51:54,480 --> 00:52:03,839
Speaker 1: I'm glad they didn't forget Easter bizarre. Well, how did

900
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 1: you feel about that?

901
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 2: Well, I'd like to think that they, you know, they

902
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 2: appreciated something for out of Mind Hunter or something like that.

903
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 2: But it was pretty funny.

904
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 1: It is funny, and I've had situations, situations like that

905
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 1: and you've just got to got to laugh about it.

906
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 2: And I knew that I knew where they were. They

907
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:27,280
Speaker 2: were Cecily locked up, so I wasn't worried.

908
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:30,360
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, that makes you a bit tougher and a

909
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 1: bit braver if you know they're they're locked up. But

910
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:36,480
Speaker 1: the things that you've accomplished in your career and whining

911
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 1: in the back, I'm focusing on the homicide, the stuff

912
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:41,840
Speaker 1: that you've done in nursing, and the role model that

913
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 1: you've been for women in law enforcement and nursing. Full

914
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 1: credit to you, and I mean that with the utmost

915
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:52,319
Speaker 1: honestly and respect. And I think it's really funny that

916
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 1: you guys wouldn't even appreciate how much respect you got

917
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 1: over here with what I call the true homicide detectives

918
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 1: that understand the of the work that you're doing. So

919
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 1: full credit to you and getting you on eye catch Killers.

920
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 1: I can't explain how excited I was getting you on

921
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:09,759
Speaker 1: so well.

922
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:13,359
Speaker 2: I've certainly enjoyed it. You're wonderful to talk with. I

923
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 2: enjoy it very much.

924
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:17,840
Speaker 1: Well, Thank you, Thank you very much. One question, because

925
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 1: the listeners will criticize me if I don't ask the

926
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:27,240
Speaker 1: character that you based loosely on you in Mind Hunters,

927
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: Dr Wendy Carr, do you like they do you like

928
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:33,520
Speaker 1: the portrayal. She seems like a pretty cool lady to me,

929
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:35,439
Speaker 1: and what I've seen on the show.

930
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:37,799
Speaker 2: I loved her as an actress. I thought she did

931
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:39,920
Speaker 2: a great job and she did the case as well,

932
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 2: but I didn't like about her background. And the other

933
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 2: two is they got it so wrong that and they

934
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 2: must they did not consult with John about all that

935
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 2: kind of stuff. They had all of our material, but

936
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:55,840
Speaker 2: I and I know it was just for Hollingwood that

937
00:53:55,880 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 2: they wanted to get a wider audience. But dogs are

938
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 2: my favorite cat. Sorry, well remember she with the cat,

939
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:11,240
Speaker 2: Remember she had the cat.

940
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 1: Well, as you said, it's for Hollywood, but look the

941
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:16,839
Speaker 1: way the way it's betrayed. And I've got to say

942
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:19,359
Speaker 1: on the on the show, I like the way they

943
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 1: approach interviews. I like the the edginess of taking like

944
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:25,239
Speaker 1: the person sitting there expecting they're going to get a

945
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:27,760
Speaker 1: standard question and then they go off on the tangent.

946
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:29,640
Speaker 1: I love that aspect of it.

947
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 2: But look, it's very good.

948
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:35,000
Speaker 1: Well, look all the best for all the best for

949
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:37,759
Speaker 1: the future. Thank you so much for your time, and

950
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:41,000
Speaker 1: our listeners are going to absolutely love love this chat

951
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,400
Speaker 1: and the stuff that you talk about such an interesting,

952
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:44,359
Speaker 1: interesting era.

953
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 2: Well, thank you for your coming words. I appreciate it.