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Speaker 1: When I think of William, I think of a little

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Speaker 1: boy who I think of his dimples. You know, when

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Speaker 1: he smiled.

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Speaker 2: What if I told you everything you thought you knew

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Speaker 2: about the disappearance of William Tyrrel was wrong.

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Speaker 1: This side smile that just is cheeky, m but sweet

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Speaker 1: and funny and mischievous, all kind of wrapped into one.

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Speaker 2: Not the big things, those are true. A three year

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Speaker 2: old boy missing from a tiny country town on the

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Speaker 2: mid north coast of New South Wales, and ten years

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Speaker 2: later we've still not found him.

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Speaker 1: He just shone this little smile and a bit of

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Speaker 1: swagger about him, but also a bit of a shark,

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Speaker 1: a shy guy as well.

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Speaker 2: But what about everything else, Like how the police say

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Speaker 2: they know what happened, they know why, they know how,

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Speaker 2: they know where William is. The police suspect William's foster

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Speaker 2: mother is involved, But what if they're wrong. I do

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Speaker 2: know there are other people with no alibi for what

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Speaker 2: they were doing on the morning William vanished, who have

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Speaker 2: never been asked to explain that in public, And I

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Speaker 2: do know there are gaps in the evidence.

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Speaker 1: And then obviously we've watched lots of home videos and yes,

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Speaker 1: he's giggle and I heard that giggle in real life,

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Speaker 1: and it's dynamic, and it's beautiful and it's vibrant, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's just a sweet boy.

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Speaker 2: I do know the police did get some things wrong

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Speaker 2: going right back to the beginning, and real people's lives

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Speaker 2: were damaged as a result, including the lives of children.

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Speaker 2: This case has left a trail of broken lives behind it,

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Speaker 2: and a lot of what you've seen in the newspapers,

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Speaker 2: on TV, or social media is mistaken or misleading.

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Speaker 1: One of the challenges that I think has been a

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Speaker 1: part of William's disappearance is that there are many people

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Speaker 1: who have their own stories.

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Speaker 2: So where do we start with this story? Well, how

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Speaker 2: about with William's parents.

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Speaker 1: William is not a post a child for somebody else.

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Speaker 1: He's not a campaign, He's not a vehicle for somebody

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Speaker 1: else to express their own view and disgruntledness.

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Speaker 2: One thing you might not know is, at the time

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Speaker 2: William went missing, legally, his parents were not the couple

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Speaker 2: who conceived him. His parents weren't the foster careers he

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Speaker 2: was living with on the day he disappeared.

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Speaker 1: William has his own story. William is his own person,

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Speaker 1: William's family in many ways has been exploited by other

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Speaker 1: people with their own agendas of what they want to achieve.

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Speaker 2: As a foster child. There was a court order in

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Speaker 2: place which meant William was under what the law called

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Speaker 2: the parental responsibility of a state government minister.

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Speaker 1: And I think that that's a really sad. I think

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Speaker 1: it's an indictment on ours as a society that we

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Speaker 1: allow that to happen, and that we hunger for that

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Speaker 1: when we go clicking through social media and all kinds

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Speaker 1: of things looking for that stuff.

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Speaker 2: But of course the minister didn't do the day to

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Speaker 2: day parenting. That responsibility was passed on. So the person

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Speaker 2: who decided if William went on holiday, who was told

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Speaker 2: if he got sick or injured, Who was responsible for

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Speaker 2: his health and his safety? Whose job it was to

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Speaker 2: know where William was? So his parent that was this woman,

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Speaker 2: Michelle White.

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Speaker 1: William deserves to have his own story. He shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: exploited for any other purpose.

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Speaker 2: I'm Dan box and from news dot com dot Au.

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Speaker 2: This is witness William till.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, hi, my son.

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Speaker 3: Did you think he's three and a half?

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Speaker 2: You're this is a triple ocor where William's foster mother

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Speaker 2: is reporting him missing to police. This is the twelfth

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Speaker 2: of September twenty fourteen, a Friday, and it's at ten

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Speaker 2: fifty six am, and that time will become important. His

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Speaker 2: foster mother says William went missing around ten thirty am.

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Speaker 2: And later his foster mother would get criticized for this

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Speaker 2: call for being too calm. People will say that a

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Speaker 2: real mother wouldn't do that.

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Speaker 3: And we hear y roaring around the garden and I

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Speaker 3: haven't heard him a bit of go on him in Okay.

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Speaker 2: You can make your own mind up. When I listen

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Speaker 2: to this, I wonder if I can hear a woman

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Speaker 2: who's just holding it together, who's doing her best to

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Speaker 2: tell the police what they need to know to help

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Speaker 2: her child, because right now the stakes couldn't be higher.

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Speaker 2: Thousands of children are reported missing every year in Australia,

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Speaker 2: but most are found within hours or days or a week.

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Speaker 4: Wasn't anyone US in the area.

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Speaker 2: People Around a dozen children die by homicide each year,

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Speaker 2: and most are killed by someone in their family. A few,

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Speaker 2: and it's a very few are abducted, but it does happen.

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Speaker 2: There's one US study that shows that three quarters of

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Speaker 2: children who are abducted are murdered within the first three hours,

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Speaker 2: and nine out of ten of them are dead within

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Speaker 2: the first.

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Speaker 3: Day's probably near state borest. Okay, we've walked up and

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Speaker 3: down and we can't find in.

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Speaker 2: This call is being made from William Thiol's foster grandmother's house.

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Speaker 2: So that's the house of his foster mother's mum. It's

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Speaker 2: a big brick house on a dead end road called

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Speaker 2: Benaroon Drive. The road is quiet and it's empty. There's

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Speaker 2: a few houses, each of them on big blocks, and

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Speaker 2: the road doesn't lead anywhere, so you wouldn't go there

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Speaker 2: if you didn't have a reason to. Benuruin Drive is

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Speaker 2: a short way outside a small town called Kendall, which

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Speaker 2: is on the mid north coast of New South Wales.

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Speaker 2: The town's named after a poet, Henry Kendall, and he

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Speaker 2: wrote about the eucalypt forest and the sound of the

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Speaker 2: bell birds in the morning, and that kind of suits

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Speaker 2: the place. When you drive into Kendall, you go over

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Speaker 2: the bridge, then you cross a railway line and then

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Speaker 2: you go up past the village green and there's a

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Speaker 2: war memorial and it's surrounded by bush there's just a

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Speaker 2: handful of shops and a few wooden houses. It's the

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Speaker 2: kind of place you'd move to if you wanted to

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Speaker 2: know your neighbors and you want to have them know

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Speaker 2: your business too. The first time I went to Kendall,

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Speaker 2: I flew in. I was a crime reporter for a newspaper,

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Speaker 2: and this was shortly after he went missing, and I

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Speaker 2: remember you were right over dense forest and looking down

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Speaker 2: out the plane window you could just see this thick,

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Speaker 2: tangled bush and in between it pools of what looked

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Speaker 2: like blackwater, and very few roads and hardly any paths,

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Speaker 2: and looking down from the air, I remember thinking, if

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Speaker 2: William is lost in that kind of country, we're never

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Speaker 2: going to find him. It's been ten years now since

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Speaker 2: William disappeared, and he's still missing. So in this series,

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Speaker 2: we're going to look at the case in a way

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Speaker 2: that it hasn't been looked at before. We're not trying

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Speaker 2: to find William, but what we are going to do

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Speaker 2: is try to find out why it's taken police ten

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Speaker 2: years to find him and they still haven't done it.

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Speaker 2: We're going to look at what they've done right and

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Speaker 2: what they've done wrong, and We're going to see how

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Speaker 2: those decisions would come to damage the lives of so

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Speaker 2: many people in ways that no one talks about. And

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Speaker 2: I don't know what answers we're going to find, at

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Speaker 2: least not yet, but I do know that we are

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Speaker 2: going to find some answers.

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Speaker 1: Hello, Michelle White speaking.

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Speaker 2: We're going to start at the beginning. It's me just

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Speaker 2: talking with the woman you heard from at the start

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Speaker 2: of this episode.

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Speaker 1: It just feels so weird when you're just doing the

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Speaker 1: sound check.

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Speaker 2: Doesn't it just confirm that you are happy that this

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Speaker 2: be recorded.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, happy.

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Speaker 2: If you would introduce yourself in your role, what would

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Speaker 2: you say?

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Speaker 1: So, my name is Michelle and my role was the

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Speaker 1: director and principal officer of the non government out of

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Speaker 1: home care organization that had responsibility for the care of

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Speaker 1: William and the authorization of his foster cares.

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Speaker 2: What did you like about the job?

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Speaker 1: There was so much I loved about working at Young Hope.

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Speaker 1: I founded the service children don't choose to come into care.

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Speaker 1: Children love their families irrespective of the circumstances that bring

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Speaker 1: them into care. So being able to work with their

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Speaker 1: families and work with their cares to create safe places

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Speaker 1: and help them to see who they are and to

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Speaker 1: help them to dream big dreams for their futures.

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Speaker 2: This is the first time Michelle was given an interview

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Speaker 2: to a journalist, and she and I are sitting in

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Speaker 2: her house in a small office, surrounded by stacks of paper.

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Speaker 2: There's a filing cabinet and outside it there's children's toys

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Speaker 2: just everywhere across the floor. You can hear in her

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Speaker 2: voice that Michelle is serious, She's quite intent, and that's

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Speaker 2: because her job is important. Understand why it's important. You

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Speaker 2: need to understand the system she was working in. Kids

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Speaker 2: get taken away from their birth families because the government

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Speaker 2: thinks it needs to protect them because their families can't.

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Speaker 2: But that government system has always struggled for funding. There's

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Speaker 2: never been enough money. And at the time William went missing,

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Speaker 2: the system was also going through huge change. All those

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Speaker 2: children that were in government care were being transferred to

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Speaker 2: third party providers like the organization called Young Hope, which

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Speaker 2: Michelle founded.

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Speaker 1: And that was quite an intensive transfer period and it

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Speaker 1: meant a lot of new service providers came on board.

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Speaker 2: So you got this huge process of reform of change.

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Speaker 2: Was it working or was problems being thrown up.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to answer that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but there were problems. There were agreements over money,

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Speaker 2: there was problems with the paperwork. One example of that

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Speaker 2: is that the single document confirming when William Pile started

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Speaker 2: foster care says that he started on the fifth of

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Speaker 2: September twenty thirteen, so the year before he went missing,

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Speaker 2: But the document is dated the twenty first of either

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Speaker 2: October or November twenty fourteen. It's hard to read with

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Speaker 2: the handwriting, but either way, that's after he disappeared, regardless

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Speaker 2: of the date on the document. Though, William's foster careers

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Speaker 2: were already looking after him before Michelle took over responsibility

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Speaker 2: for that placement.

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Speaker 1: So the way that William and his foster cares came

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Speaker 1: to be with Young Hope is that there was a

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Speaker 1: process of transition from the Department of Communities and Justice,

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Speaker 1: and William's careers had identified that they would like to

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Speaker 1: seider coming across to Young Hope, and so I met

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Speaker 1: with them and we didn't just accept that they were

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Speaker 1: fit and proper based on somebody else's assessment. We did

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Speaker 1: our own independent assessment. I think that if I am

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Speaker 1: ultimately legally responsible for children under my care and ultimately

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Speaker 1: signing off on decisions that impact the future lives of

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Speaker 1: children that I need to be informed by some knowledge

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Speaker 1: of them and get to know them to some degree.

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Speaker 2: One of the decisions that Michelle still lives with is

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Speaker 2: that she gave approval for William's foster care is to

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Speaker 2: take him to Kendall, which is where he went missing.

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Speaker 2: It was a family trip to visit his foster grandmother.

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Speaker 2: They'd made it before, they'd been given approval before, but

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Speaker 2: Michelle did allow it.

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Speaker 1: William was a child who was under the care of

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Speaker 1: an organization I had responsibility for. Whilst I am not

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Speaker 1: responsible for William's disappearance, I had responsibility for him, and

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Speaker 1: so I made a very strong commitment to myself and

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Speaker 1: to him that I would not walk out on finding

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Speaker 1: out what has happened to him.

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Speaker 2: Michelle's been interviewed by police more than once over the

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Speaker 2: years after William went missing. She flew up to Kendall

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Speaker 2: to spend time with his foster family. That was part

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Speaker 2: of her job.

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Speaker 1: I expected to arrive to years that William had been found.

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Speaker 1: There were masses of people looking for William, looking for

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Speaker 1: him everywhere the longer William went missing, the more and

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Speaker 1: more resources came to try and find him. Everything from

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Speaker 1: police on motorbikes, horses, divers, They went in drains, they

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Speaker 1: cleared ponds, they pumped things out, they went in dams,

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Speaker 1: they went in waterways, they went through the houses in

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Speaker 1: the block multiple times. Under round about it was. I

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Speaker 1: sat in the house with William's sister and it was

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Speaker 1: searched multiple times. On one occasion, officers from the Public

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Speaker 1: Order and Riot squad came through and we actually had

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Speaker 1: to get off the lounge and they lifted up the

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Speaker 1: cushions and they even took photos off the wall and

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Speaker 1: looked behind the photos, and you know, it was that

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Speaker 1: kind of extentive of search. I remember under the house

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Speaker 1: was this big mound of dirt. I don't even know

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Speaker 1: how else to describe it. I'm not even sure what

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Speaker 1: it was, but remember feeling really helpless a few times,

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Speaker 1: and even I myself climbed in under there just to

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Speaker 1: even look. Of course, he wasn't there, he wasn't there,

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Speaker 1: he wasn't there.

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Speaker 2: Michelle also watched Williams foster parents. This is what she

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Speaker 2: was trained for. Her job was to protect the welfare

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Speaker 2: of the children in her care, and if something happened

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Speaker 2: to one of them, her job was to ask questions.

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Speaker 2: Her mind had to go to those bad places. Michelle

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Speaker 2: knows the statistics that show that if a child gets

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Speaker 2: hurt or worse, mostly almost always, it's those closest to

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Speaker 2: them who were to blame. I asked her what she

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Speaker 2: saw in Williams's foster parents.

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Speaker 1: Absolute distress, visceral distress. I remember when I first arrived

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Speaker 1: and the male foster Caira collapsing into me and sobbing

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Speaker 1: into my neck, the female foster Kira, collapsing at different

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Speaker 1: points and having to lift her from the ground where

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Speaker 1: she'd collapsed, heaving sobs of where is he?

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Speaker 2: Where is he?

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Speaker 1: You know, then getting information, oh, we might have found him.

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Speaker 2: Almost from the moment william disappeared, there was confusion. There

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Speaker 2: were sightings of him, there were rumors, people said they'd

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Speaker 2: seen him all over.

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Speaker 1: The and I remember, in one particular time being told, oh,

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Speaker 1: we've might have found him, and the three of us

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Speaker 1: separately being showed a photo of a little boy that

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Speaker 1: they thought they'd found, and all of us thinking it

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Speaker 1: might be him. But it constantly misses with your mind

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Speaker 1: and just the ups and downs of that journey and

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Speaker 1: just going it was a completely surreal world.

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Speaker 2: And at the time or looking back, did you see

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Speaker 2: anything that made you doubt the foster parents or believe

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Speaker 2: there might be something more than they were telling you

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Speaker 2: about what happened?

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Speaker 1: Not at all, not once.

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Speaker 2: And given. Since William went missing, there have been years

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Speaker 2: of police investigation. Now there's been a coronial inquest into

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Speaker 2: his apparent death. Has anyone asked you about what you

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Speaker 2: saw in those first few days when you were with

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Speaker 2: his foster parents.

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Speaker 1: Nobody has asked me about what I observed in his

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Speaker 1: foster parents those first few days.

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Speaker 2: No, Michelle did keep extensive records though, questioning what she

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Speaker 2: saw in the days, weeks, and months that followed. These

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00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,720
Speaker 2: have since been tended in court, so were public records.

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Speaker 2: Then in recent years the police came asking other questions.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I was interviewed about William's disappearance, and he became

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Speaker 1: evident during that interview that happened in October of twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty one that the investigation appeared to be making inquiries

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Speaker 1: of the female foster care and I was very surprised

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Speaker 1: about that angle, and there were questions being asked that

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Speaker 1: made no sense to me.

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Speaker 2: One possible reason that their questions didn't make any sense

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Speaker 2: to Michelle is that she was on heavy painkillers at

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Speaker 2: the time following an operation.

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Speaker 1: They seemed to be focus on apparent different things.

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Speaker 2: This was a few years ago and the current strike

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00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,000
Speaker 2: force who are now working on the case, and two

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Speaker 2: detectives who turned up at Michelle's door without warning saying

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Speaker 2: they needed to do an interview. Michelle says she was

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Speaker 2: in her pajamas. She says she told the detectives she

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Speaker 2: was on this medication, but they went ahead with the interview.

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Speaker 1: I've never been asked about what I observed. I was

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Speaker 1: in the home with William's foster parents. I spent all

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00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:07,119
Speaker 1: day every day with them for I think it was

303
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,280
Speaker 1: nine days after William disappeared. I was on the property.

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Speaker 1: I walked around the property. I took photos of the property.

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Speaker 1: I did all of that, and they weren't making inquiries

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Speaker 1: about those things.

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Speaker 2: When you were being interviewed by them, and I think

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Speaker 2: you were talking to them for five hours or thereabouts,

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Speaker 2: did they give you a sense of what they were

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Speaker 2: thinking William's foster mother may have done.

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Speaker 1: No, they didn't, Just that they implied that she had

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Speaker 1: something to do with William's disappearance and that all would

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Speaker 1: be forthcoming in a few days. Interestingly, at the time,

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Speaker 1: Cleo was missing in Western Australia, and during that interview

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Speaker 1: they said to me, surely you know you don't think

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Speaker 1: that somebody else has come into the tent. You can't

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Speaker 1: tell me that you wouldn't hear the zipper.

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Speaker 2: To understand this, you need to know about another missing child,

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Speaker 2: four year old Cleosmith.

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Speaker 5: Living first tonight, a young wa family is in the

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Speaker 5: middle of a nightmare ordeal. Their little girl is missing

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Speaker 5: after vanishing from their tent at a remote campsite in

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Speaker 5: the state's north.

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Speaker 2: Searching the fence line for fingerprints.

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Speaker 4: Forensics today examining the family home of four year old

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Speaker 4: Cleo Smith.

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Speaker 2: Hurry up, my daughter's gone.

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Speaker 6: How old your daughter us?

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Speaker 2: Cleo was camping with her family in Western Australia on

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Speaker 2: the sixteenth of October twenty twenty one, and she went

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Speaker 2: missing from a tent in which her family was sleeping.

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Speaker 2: So at the time the Western Australia Police were investigating

333
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Speaker 2: that disappearance, the New South Wales detectives were asking Michelle

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Speaker 2: questions about William going missing.

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Speaker 1: They asked me what I thought had happened to Cleo,

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Speaker 1: and I said that I didn't know. They said words

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Speaker 1: to the effect of, surely you'd hear somebody undoing a

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Speaker 1: zipper if your child was sleeping next to you, and

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Speaker 1: I took it to mean that, yeah, surely, if there's

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Speaker 1: no other answers that are apparent, then it's the parent,

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Speaker 1: and the implication being similar in the situation of William missing,

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Speaker 1: when there's no other clear answer, it must be her.

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Speaker 2: And what did you think of that?

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Speaker 1: I became upset with them, and I said, are you

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Speaker 1: telling me that, after this many years, this is the

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00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 1: best you've got? And the interviewing officer became angry with

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00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,680
Speaker 1: me and began to raise his voice and said he's

348
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Speaker 1: been working on this three year and he's focused on

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Speaker 1: finding William. And he was implying to me that he

350
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Speaker 1: was the only person who cared about finding William. I

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00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:21,879
Speaker 1: became quite upset and began to cry, and I said,

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Speaker 1: quite abruptly to him, don't you dare sit in my

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Speaker 1: home and accuse me of not caring about William. And

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Speaker 1: I pointed to a picture that I had sitting on

355
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Speaker 1: a filing cabinet and said you may have been working

356
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Speaker 1: on this for a year, but I've lived with this

357
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Speaker 1: since Williams disappeared and he backed off.

358
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Speaker 2: And that's that photograph you've got on the filing cabinet

359
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 2: there it is. In Cleo's case, it turned out it

360
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 2: wasn't her family who abducted her.

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Speaker 7: It is one of the most extraordinary stories of the year.

362
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,919
Speaker 7: Four year old Cleo Smith this morning has been found.

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Speaker 8: Alive and well police breaking into a locked home in

364
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Speaker 8: Canarvan where she was found in a room.

365
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:16,920
Speaker 2: I can confirm that we have a man from Canarvon

366
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 2: in custody who is currently being questioned by detectives.

367
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 1: Kidnapper, the doll obsessed loner Terence Kelly.

368
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,120
Speaker 3: Little Cleo left locked in a room allowed radio used

369
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Speaker 3: to conceal her cries.

370
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Speaker 8: He had his fantasies and he was trying to make

371
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Speaker 8: them come to life.

372
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Speaker 1: It just happened to be that it was our.

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Speaker 2: Tent that he got into. The point being that in

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Speaker 2: the vast majority of cases it does turn out to

375
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 2: be the parents, but not all. In Cleo's case, her

376
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 2: family didn't hear the tent zipper. The New South Wales

377
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 2: Police are now focused on William's foster mother. They went

378
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 2: to charter her. So only one of two things can

379
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 2: be true. Either the police are right and she's a

380
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 2: criminal and she has misled the entire country for ten

381
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 2: years by seeming to be an innocent grieving mother, or

382
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 2: the police are wrong, and that matters because William is

383
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 2: not the only child that's been taken from those foster parents.

384
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,399
Speaker 4: And that someone else's house a foster home, and I

385
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 4: want to go to your house, and I love this one.

386
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 2: Yes, we'll talk about this more later in the series,

387
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 2: but I'm legally prevented from telling you who that child is.

388
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 2: So much of this case is surrounded in secrecy. Right

389
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 2: from the beginning, there's been almost two versions of this story.

390
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 2: What the police and the media knew about William's disappearance

391
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 2: and what the public were allowed to be told, and

392
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 2: the space between them was vast. Right at the beginning,

393
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 2: the state government even said that the fact William was

394
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 2: a foster child couldn't be made public. I remember getting

395
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 2: the emails that said journalists could go to prison if

396
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:21,239
Speaker 2: we did print that. Even today, we can't name or

397
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 2: identify William's foster cares, and so much else about this

398
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 2: case is still secret. There's been inquest hearings behind closed doors.

399
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 2: There's been statutory bars on what we can and can't report.

400
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,679
Speaker 2: There's been court orders suppressing what we can say. I

401
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 2: remember going to one court registry and asking to see

402
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 2: the publicly available documents relating to William's disappearance and just

403
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 2: being told, don't even bother filling in the form. That

404
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 2: thing is suppressed. It's closed down. You'll never get it.

405
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 2: All this secrecy is supposed to protect witnesses and the

406
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 2: chance of getting a prosecution, but it also protects the police.

407
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 2: We're just supposed to trust them.

408
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 5: Hello, true crimer errs.

409
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 4: This is the case of William Tyrrell.

410
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,880
Speaker 2: And at the same time that secrecy creates speculation.

411
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,679
Speaker 6: We've seen some pretty major updates in the disappearance of

412
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 6: three year old William Tyre.

413
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 2: Just moments after this photo was taken, this young boy.

414
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,199
Speaker 1: And the inquest so she was babysiteing two young boys.

415
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 2: One of them said that he knew who killed William.

416
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 2: Seeing your detective has dropped a major bombshell in the mystery.

417
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 4: A spot communications session using me ap.

418
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: Who is responsible for William Tyrell's death.

419
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 2: Is it possible that William was spotted playing at his

420
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 2: foster grandmother's place and he was snatched. The worst of

421
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 2: this happens on the internet, but it also has real

422
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 2: effects in real life.

423
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 6: I can't recall if the word pedophile was used, but

424
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 6: there was certainly some suspicion.

425
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 2: I think this is Ben Outwood. He was William's caseworker,

426
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 2: meaning he worked with the birth and the foster families,

427
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 2: overseeing William's foster placement, trying to get the best for William.

428
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 6: Look, I can understand why they'd ask, because it's not

429
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 6: It's not normal that you take photos of a child

430
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 6: that's not yours and have the mon youphone.

431
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 2: Ben gave evidence in court about William's disappearance and he

432
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 2: became a target for online abuse.

433
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 6: It is normal in the sense that that was a

434
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 6: protocol that we had. We were issued with a work

435
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 6: phone with a camera because part of the purpose of

436
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 6: our visits was to document, you know, ordinary moments, so

437
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 6: that when William turned eighteen and got his file, he

438
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 6: would have not just case notes, which are legally necessary

439
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 6: and tell the story of his care, but he would

440
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 6: have just images of himself being a kid and having

441
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 6: a normal life. That was the purpose for which I

442
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 6: took images of William, whether it was pictures of him

443
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 6: with his birth mom and dad at contact, or whether

444
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 6: it was.

445
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 2: You know, stupid selfies.

446
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 6: Where he's wearing superhero costumes. You know, it was quite

447
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 6: normal for me, and I think my reaction when I

448
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 6: read those sort of suggestions was, well, you just don't

449
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 6: understand the reasoning.

450
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 2: Ben had those photos on his phone for a good reason.

451
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 2: It was his job. He cared about William. People said

452
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 2: the worst things about him online, things that just were

453
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 2: not true. But what people said about him is just

454
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 2: the tip of the iceberg of what's been said about others.

455
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: In this case, cocaine addict FF sold William to pedo ring.

456
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 8: I'm interested in seeing him in handcuffs.

457
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 2: Him and his wife and their mother.

458
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 1: Cold, cold people they are. How do they sleep at night?

459
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 7: Sleep?

460
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 2: Pedophil rapist Doc William has been murdered by his narcissistic

461
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 2: psychopath foster mother and the corpse, then dismembered and courted

462
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 2: for disposal by the besotted foster father motley crew of

463
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 2: pedophile mates.

464
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: He loves little boys.

465
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 2: Tell me to my face, I'm wrong, You weak dog

466
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 2: William has.

467
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,959
Speaker 3: Been murdered, Name them and shame them, then send the

468
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 3: family the bill for the bullet.

469
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 2: All of this stuff is false, but the courts they

470
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 2: can't stop people publishing it. Nor can they stop them

471
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 2: sharing the names and addresses of William's birth and foster parents.

472
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 2: The courts can't stop them sharing images of their houses

473
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 2: from Google Earth, or stop them making road trips to

474
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 2: visit those houses. And when they get there, these people

475
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 2: take photographs of the houses and then share those online.

476
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 2: I've seen them turn up in court taking photographs of

477
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 2: themselves flashing V signs with the police in the background,

478
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 2: like there's some kind of celebrities in a homicide investigation.

479
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 2: Nor can the court stop the sharing of confidential documents

480
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 2: about this case, including witness statements, phone records, police interview transcripts.

481
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 2: All of these are now flying around online. I've been

482
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 2: sent them. And at the same time as the foster

483
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 2: parents are under all of this online surveillance, they're also

484
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 2: under police surveillance. They've had listening devices in their car

485
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 2: and in their home. They've had their phone calls intercepted,

486
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 2: surveillance cameras posted outside their house. They've been targeted by

487
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 2: undercover detectives. We can't tell you their names or show

488
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 2: you their photographs, but they been under almost total surveillance

489
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 2: now for years. It's like the police, the media, the public.

490
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 2: No one can stop talking about this case.

491
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 7: Good evening, We begin tonight with breaking news on one

492
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 7: of Australia's most baffling cases, the disappearance of three year

493
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 7: old William Tyrell. Almost a decade ago.

494
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 3: The final part of an inquest into the disappearance of

495
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 3: New South Wales toddler William Tyrell has begun.

496
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 7: Secret recordings from inside the home of William Tyrell's faster

497
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 7: parents have been played in court today.

498
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 1: You probably haven't heard of Alana Smith.

499
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 7: Then there's the information that for the first time tonight

500
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 7: is being made public by police.

501
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 3: Well the worst case of malicious prosecution in the state.

502
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 7: Detectives now believe there's enough evidence to charge the toddler's

503
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 7: foster mother.

504
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 3: Detectives are recommending the woman be charged with interfering with

505
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 3: a corpse and perverting the course of justice.

506
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: Foster mother has always denied involvement in the little boy's disappearance.

507
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 2: So what's your impression of the foster pearance of William Tyrel.

508
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 3: It's the other is guilty of this. She is the

509
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 3: greatest actor in Australian criminal history.

510
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 5: So if anyone out there is thinking I might have

511
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 5: gotten away with this, what's your message?

512
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 2: They haven't. We will continue with this investigation as long

513
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 2: as it takes okay.

514
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 3: So basically, you're saying we have no idea who killed

515
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 3: William and we're no closer to finding that out.

516
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,720
Speaker 2: The thing is, almost everyone talking about this case doesn't

517
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 2: know much, if anything, about it. Ben Atwood is one

518
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 2: of the few who actually knew William. Ben looked at

519
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 2: the birth and the foster families after William disappeared. I've

520
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 2: been through pages of Ben's documents of records he drew

521
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 2: up when he was William's caseworker. He was looking for faults,

522
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 2: for patterns, any sign that will might not be safe.

523
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,800
Speaker 6: I want to be realistic about this as much as possible.

524
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 6: There's so much coverage where the differences between the birth

525
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 6: family and the foster family have really been magnified and polarized.

526
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 2: But the experience of being interviewed by police made Ben

527
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 2: question if he was wrong to trust William's foster.

528
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 6: Family, and I'd be lying if I said that. I

529
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 6: never looked back on that and thought, did I miss anything,

530
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:35,720
Speaker 6: Did I make a mistake?

531
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:38,240
Speaker 2: Was I.

532
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 6: Inattentive to something that actually was significant? And I just

533
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:46,240
Speaker 6: can't think of anything.

534
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 2: My eldest daughter is the same age as William Terroon,

535
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,879
Speaker 2: is the same age William would be or would have been.

536
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 2: And I can remember the first time I went to Kendall,

537
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 2: standing outside the house where William went missing, and at

538
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 2: the time, the police were looking at the theory that

539
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 2: maybe he ran down the grass slope towards the road

540
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 2: where maybe there was someone in a waiting car who

541
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 2: picked him up and drove him away, And I can remember,

542
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 2: I can remember being there, and I knew how a

543
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 2: three year old moved. I knew how my daughter could

544
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 2: have run down that slope and been picked up and

545
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 2: been completely helpless. And I can remember shivering and it

546
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 2: bothering me in a way that no other story I'd

547
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 2: ever worked on ever did. And it's ten years now.

548
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 2: My youngest daughter is the same age William was at

549
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 2: the time he disappeared. And I do know that if

550
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,280
Speaker 2: it was one of my daughters who'd gone missing, I'd

551
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 2: have wanted there to be a transparent investigation. I would

552
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:23,240
Speaker 2: want the media to report the truth about what had happened.

553
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:28,240
Speaker 2: I would want people shouting my daughter's name in every

554
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 2: newspaper and every TV show and every podcast. And that

555
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 2: is what I would have wanted to have happened.

556
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 6: Sorry, can I start again, Yeah, I do take I

557
00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:03,879
Speaker 6: took my responsibility for William's care seriously. Part of it

558
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:10,839
Speaker 6: was also not adding to the furnace of speculation that

559
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 6: this was generating. I did not want to become entangled

560
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 6: in that because I wanted the investigation to be focused

561
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 6: on what was important, which was finding William.

562
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 2: Like Michelle White, this is the first time Ben has

563
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:28,280
Speaker 2: spoken to a journalist. We met first in a cafe

564
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 2: in Western Sydney and Ben was nervous, he was uncertain.

565
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 2: And then we met again in my office and it

566
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 2: was like Ben was determined, like he was reconciled to

567
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 2: face this.

568
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,240
Speaker 6: But in the last few years, I feel that William

569
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 6: has almost disappeared from the public discourse about this case.

570
00:38:54,800 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 6: I feel that he's really faded into the back ground

571
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 6: and other things have taken his place. And I'm not

572
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 6: special or anything like that, but I knew him. I

573
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:18,919
Speaker 6: knew him well, and I think it's important that I wish,

574
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:21,799
Speaker 6: I wish he was alive and here and that none

575
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 6: of this was happening, But we can't have that now,

576
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 6: And so I think in lieu of that, I wish

577
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 6: that he was remembered and honored for who he was.

578
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 6: And I think I can, I can at least comment

579
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 6: on what I knew. And we don't know what happened

580
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 6: to him. We don't know if he's alive or not.

581
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 6: We don't know if he was abducted, if so, who

582
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 6: took him. We don't know anything. But what I feel

583
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,879
Speaker 6: looking at the coverage is that gradually William has really

584
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 6: become a bit of a footnote and has been replaced

585
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 6: by conjecture. And you know, I'm not going to comment

586
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:20,719
Speaker 6: on police hypotheses, particularly matters that are in court. That's

587
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 6: not my field, that's not my expertise. But I do

588
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 6: have this sense that William has become an absence. He's

589
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 6: been an absence since he was missing, but he's become

590
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 6: an absence in his own investigation. In a sense, looking

591
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 6: back at it now, are you disappointed?

592
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 2: I feel confused.

593
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 6: I feel confused because I don't understand, like, what's the

594
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 6: calculus that's driving the directions the investigation is taking. You know,

595
00:40:54,719 --> 00:41:00,319
Speaker 6: as William's caseworker, my job was to be an tick

596
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 6: it for him and for his care and so in

597
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 6: talking about the what we've talked about, it's a kind

598
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 6: of grief to me that we are still We don't

599
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 6: feel any closer, and I feel that we may never

600
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 6: really know, we may never really have an answer, we

601
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:35,720
Speaker 6: may never have a point where we can really grieve

602
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 6: for William because we know what happened. I have to

603
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 6: be careful how I say this, based on everything that

604
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 6: you know. I know from when I was in William's

605
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 6: life and in the lives of his families. I don't

606
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,840
Speaker 6: feel that we're any closer now to finding out what happened.

607
00:41:55,920 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 6: I don't think that we've made significant steps in that direction.

608
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, talking to Michelle and Ben, I've learned their professionals

609
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 2: with a professional responsibility to ask questions about what happened

610
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 2: to William, and that is what they've done over the

611
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 2: past ten years, including asking questions of themselves. They don't

612
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 2: care who's right or wrong. Their responsibility is not to

613
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 2: the police or William's foster parents, but to William and

614
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 2: they've gone back searching their memories because not asking those

615
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 2: questions would be to fail William. That's what we're going

616
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 2: to do over the rest of this series, going back

617
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 2: to the beginning, asking questions, revealing what was done right

618
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 2: in the search for William and what was done wrong

619
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 2: and who got hurt as a result of those decisions.

620
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,880
Speaker 2: People get hurt in these investigations.

621
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 1: We all look back in hindsight on things that you

622
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 1: know you could do better, or decisions that you make

623
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:13,320
Speaker 1: that you could have done differently.

624
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 2: Everyone does that, or you know, if you've got a conscience,

625
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 2: you do that. Anyway, we're going to reinvestigate the investigation

626
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 2: on Bill spreading. Yes, look, the reality of this is

627
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:28,760
Speaker 2: I don't think you're going to enjoy this conversation. Yeah,

628
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 2: tell me about it. We're going to look back on

629
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 2: what really happened.

630
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 1: It's the never ending nightmare. We just relive it. We

631
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 1: just don't have our boy.

632
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:51,280
Speaker 4: Don't hurt him.

633
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: So if I look you in the eye now and

634
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 1: say I know you're lying, and I'm not even going

635
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 1: to tell you why or how I know you're lying,

636
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 1: what would just well.

637
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 2: I'd say you're must him the truth. William project to One.

638
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 2: Thing I do know for certain is that things you

639
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 2: didn't know will become known. Take one example, that time

640
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 2: that William Tirele disappeared from Kendall on the twelfth of

641
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 2: September twenty fourteen. That wasn't even the first time that

642
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:25,280
Speaker 2: he went missing.

643
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 1: HI heap them for three months.

644
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 2: I arranged the.

645
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 1: Whole you're the mastermind. Yeah, that's right.

646
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:35,399
Speaker 2: I should have just toutten myself in the nile.

647
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 1: We've been able to take him off.

648
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:47,399
Speaker 2: That's all I should have done. That's next time on Witness.

649
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,280
Speaker 2: A lot of people have been involved in making this series.

650
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 2: Among them, the executive producer is Nina Young. The sound

651
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:59,240
Speaker 2: design was by Tiffany Dimack. The producers have been Emily Pigeon,

652
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:05,720
Speaker 2: Nicola Adams, Jazzbar and Phoebe Zakowski Wallace. Research by Aidan Patrick,

653
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 2: music by Rory O'Connor. Our lawyer is Stephen Coons, and

654
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:13,800
Speaker 2: the editor at news dot com dot au is Kerry Warren.

655
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 2: I'm Dan Box