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Speaker 1: So I get a question for you. How's your handwriting?

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Speaker 1: It's anything like mine. It's a bit closer to the

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Speaker 1: kind of fat text that you might see scrawl on

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Speaker 1: the back of the bus seat, just spiky and illegible

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Speaker 1: and completely no idea what is written when it's taken

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Speaker 1: out of context. However, even my terribly messy handwriting, which

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Speaker 1: did lead me to rewrite entire essays in high school

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Speaker 1: because my teachers refused to mark them, that handwriting can

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Speaker 1: be enormously powerful. It can help me organize my thoughts,

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Speaker 1: achieve goals that i'm setting, and even deliver me from

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Speaker 1: immense mental anguish up to a point, and that point

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Speaker 1: was me needing antipsychotics. But once those drugs started to

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Speaker 1: kick in, it was the writing, which, in combination with

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Speaker 1: a few other things, that really started to help me

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Speaker 1: think about the world a whole lot straighter. It might

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Speaker 1: be hard to believe, but it really is that powerful.

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Speaker 1: My guest today has written actually an entire book which

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Speaker 1: outlines some of the most powerful exercises you can do

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Speaker 1: with a piece of paper and some pencils when it

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Speaker 1: comes to sorting your catastrophe from your possibility, your fear

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Speaker 1: from your foresight and your fun from your fuck ups.

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Speaker 1: Tammy Miller is a certified practicing counselor based in Sydney.

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Speaker 1: Her brilliant book, Paperback Therapy, is a fantastic collection of

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Speaker 1: tools which can really help you if you're unable to

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Speaker 1: get to your shrink. It's really great. She's fantastic to

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Speaker 1: chat too. We're going to get to it, just some moments.

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Speaker 1: I do have to play some ads and then we'll

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Speaker 1: get to the show back half of the.

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Speaker 2: Break Coday wealk into the show.

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Speaker 1: This is better than yesterday, making it better every episode

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Speaker 1: since twenty thirteen. My name's Ginsburg. I'm a podcaster, a

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Speaker 1: TV host, i am a best telling author. I'm an

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Speaker 1: award winning documentary maker. I am a person who sings

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Speaker 1: craftwork songs about robots with my four year old as

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Speaker 1: we ride the bicycle to daycare. And I'm glad you're

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Speaker 1: here today. We are dancing merchan Nick. It's great. Thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for getting on the newsletter. The link

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Speaker 1: is in the show notes. You can find out about

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Speaker 1: episodes and stuff I don't post anywhere else. It's something

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Speaker 1: like Twitter, but without the truckstock toilet crime scene which

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Speaker 1: Twitter has become and I'm really quite enjoying it, so

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Speaker 1: please to get on there the links in the show notes.

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Speaker 1: So my guest today Tammy Miller. She's a therapist. Her book,

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Speaker 1: she's got a brand new book, is called Paperback Therapy,

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Speaker 1: which has got around twenty five quite clever and really

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Speaker 1: powerful exercises that you can do with a pencil and paper.

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Speaker 1: And these things are scientifically proven to really work when

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Speaker 1: it comes to addressing things like mood or anxiety or depression.

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Speaker 1: They're quite effective. It's fair to point out that writing

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Speaker 1: in a book, while are useful, is no substitute for

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Speaker 1: working with an actual medical professional. But she and I

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Speaker 1: will get to that. Temmy's story does cover some pretty

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Speaker 1: dark moments. We're going to discuss self harm and suicide.

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Speaker 1: But it is important to know the stakes when you're

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Speaker 1: talking about this kind of stuff and why it's important

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Speaker 1: to get into action, even if that action is just

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Speaker 1: grabbing a bus ticket and riding on the back of it.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to put a link to the book her

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Speaker 1: book in the in the show notes. Get into it.

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Speaker 1: It's it's very good stuff. Enjoy having a chat with

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Speaker 1: Tammy Miller. Thanks for coming in, Thanks for coming on.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: I guess the big challenge of psychology is that you're

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Speaker 1: going to have to scale somehow, otherwise you're only ever

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Speaker 1: going to be able to make as much money as

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Speaker 1: you can from seeing one person at a time. And

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Speaker 1: there's only so many hours in the day, and then

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Speaker 1: you've got to report, and you've got to write, and

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Speaker 1: there's like and plus for your brain you kind of

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Speaker 1: max out. Yeah, you're lucky if you see six clients

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Speaker 1: in a day and make a practice work, and so

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Speaker 1: that's worth three hundred roughs an hour struggling, that's what

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Speaker 1: it costs. Yeah, and so there's this upper limit to

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Speaker 1: what you can do for your life, but also what

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Speaker 1: you can do for other people because you the one

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Speaker 1: on one situation. But so scaling psychology has always been

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Speaker 1: the challenge. And books sometimes are okay, sometimes they're like

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Speaker 1: this is kind of dangerous without a bit more knowledge.

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Speaker 1: Why did you go, I'm going to have to do this.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to get down on Panama.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you hit it on the head more so when

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Speaker 3: you said three hundred bucks is bloody expensive for therapy,

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Speaker 3: And that is the reason, really, I have mental health

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Speaker 3: conditions myself and when I was struggling. I was also

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Speaker 3: struggling financially, and I decided that I would rather pay

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Speaker 3: my rent than see a therapist.

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Speaker 1: Aha, we how did that work out?

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Speaker 3: Look, it's great I paid the rent, But what I

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Speaker 3: did with that time was staying in the room that

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Speaker 3: I paid for and cry myself to sleep for months

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Speaker 3: because I couldn't prioritize the times funds to see a therapist.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, that happened out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and look, I'm not alone. And it was constant

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Speaker 3: conversations like that, particularly during COVID, where I said, it

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Speaker 3: needs to exist some resource where I can give these

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Speaker 3: therapy exercises that I'm already giving to clients and working

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Speaker 3: with clients on, or that I will shoot to a

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Speaker 3: friend who's in crisis and just say, please, just try

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Speaker 3: this as something else in your toolkit where people can

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Speaker 3: access it, use it in between sessions. And so that's

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Speaker 3: why the book came about, because something else needs to

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Speaker 3: exist when you don't have the time or don't have

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Speaker 3: the funds to actually go and see a therapist.

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Speaker 1: We are profoundly fortunate in this country to have the

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Speaker 1: Mental Health Plan on Medicare, which is it still a

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Speaker 1: twenty or does it go back to ten. It's at

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Speaker 1: ten to ten again because it was up to twenty sessions,

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Speaker 1: which is amazing, and that was during and after pandemic

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Speaker 1: lockdowns because the early intervention investment from the health system

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Speaker 1: at that point does, yes, cost money, but way cheaper

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Speaker 1: than acute presentation, absolutely harsh down the track. Yeah, because

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Speaker 1: it was unaddressed at the time. Yeah, yeah, just amazing.

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Speaker 1: I've had my own experience with this stuff. But I'd

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Speaker 1: love to know your thoughts and what you tell people

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Speaker 1: sitting down with a pen and paper. How on earth

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Speaker 1: is that going to make everything is shit? Nothing could

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Speaker 1: make anything better because everything is terrible always? How can

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Speaker 1: that possibly move the needle?

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Speaker 3: It slows us down, and I think it forces us

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Speaker 3: to actually focus on this thing that we need to

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Speaker 3: focus on. When you think about today, we are plugged in.

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Speaker 3: We're getting so much information all the time from everywhere

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Speaker 3: around us. There's mobile screens, there's streaming services, there's every

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Speaker 3: kind of information input that you can think of, and

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Speaker 3: so much of that is not consciously consumed. And so

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Speaker 3: when we have to stop and focus on and write

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Speaker 3: down answers to prompts, it really helps us to focus

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Speaker 3: in on ourselves in ways that we don't really do otherwise,

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Speaker 3: Like all of those information processing that we get from

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Speaker 3: external sources are really numbing us, really, and so being

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Speaker 3: vulnerable on the page, which is also really good because

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Speaker 3: it's not with a friend or a parent or someone

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Speaker 3: who might judge you, is a nice first step to

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Speaker 3: kind of understand yourself a little bit better. This book

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Speaker 3: is not for when you're in crisis and you're in

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Speaker 3: a fight or flight or for response. This is for

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Speaker 3: those moments in between to better understand yourself and to

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Speaker 3: help yourself deal with when you start to feel yourself

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Speaker 3: edging towards that. But in terms of when you're actually

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Speaker 3: in crisis, that's where you need to tap into professional

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Speaker 3: support or hopefully someone else who maybe has read the

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Speaker 3: book sees you and says, I think we need to

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Speaker 3: get you support right now. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: My first experience with this kind of stuff was when

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Speaker 1: I learned cognitive behavioral therapy in I've Got nearly twenty

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Speaker 1: four years ago now, and I didn't want to believe

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Speaker 1: that writing some stuff down in some columns would change

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Speaker 1: how I felt on the inside. What is going on

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Speaker 1: for us? Like, is there a different pathway that the

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Speaker 1: I guess, the signal or the processing goes through when

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Speaker 1: we're writing it down for us to be able to

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Speaker 1: reframe something like truly honestly, on the way here, there

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Speaker 1: was a guy who drive across the bicycle lane without looking,

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Speaker 1: and I like, my backwheel did this full skied And

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Speaker 1: I'm like, really, now, I could have in the past,

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Speaker 1: I could have responded with aggression on that fucking and

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Speaker 1: I was like, came out, I get it, and I

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Speaker 1: kept going. Now, that's because I've practiced that a lot,

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Speaker 1: not responding with anger, which is something that happened earlier

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Speaker 1: on in my life. What is writing it down give

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Speaker 1: you the ability to subvert that instant kind of thought

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Speaker 1: pattern or that instant kind of reaction, that the habitual

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Speaker 1: reaction that we might.

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Speaker 3: Have because you are writing at a slower pace. So

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Speaker 3: when you think, we think really fast, but when you write,

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Speaker 3: you need to only think as fast as your pen

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Speaker 3: can go. So it allows you to really take it

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Speaker 3: in and usually most of us will read back. The

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Speaker 3: exercises usually ask you to read back on what you've written.

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Speaker 3: And it's like when we study, for example, or if

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Speaker 3: you study at school, it's always write it out by

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Speaker 3: hand rather than typing it or just rereading it, because

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Speaker 3: that way it's going to sink deeper because you are

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Speaker 3: slowly processing what it is that you're writing. And also

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Speaker 3: there's a sense of do I understand what I'm writing

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Speaker 3: because you have to read it back.

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Speaker 1: The research around writing down how we feel about a

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Speaker 1: moment is you almost can't believe it could be true.

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Speaker 1: It's like a fairy story, you know, particularly in the

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Speaker 1: treatment of things like you know, PTSD or unprocessed trauma

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Speaker 1: or something that might have happened even a very long

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Speaker 1: time ago. The research between a focus group might be

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Speaker 1: getting it not quite one thousand percent right. But the

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Speaker 1: reason to research the difference between the control group who

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Speaker 1: were just told to recall this moment and then the

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Speaker 1: whether you called not control, I don't know, the experiment

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Speaker 1: group to recall a moment that was difficult, write down

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Speaker 1: a page and then literally never read it again, never

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Speaker 1: read it, throw it away, even delete the file, and

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Speaker 1: then a month later, being asked how they felt when

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Speaker 1: they recorded this thing. The first group was like, still terrible,

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Speaker 1: and the second group was like not so bad. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what's happening in their brains?

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Speaker 3: It's getting it out. It's purging, right, So you are

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Speaker 3: putting it down, you have to make meaning of an experience.

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Speaker 3: And when we do that, just in our brains, we

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Speaker 3: can sort of, I guess, circulate and sort of get

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Speaker 3: kept up in it, and that's where we get spiraling

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Speaker 3: and anxiety. But if you're actually writing it down and

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Speaker 3: you have to think of sometimes structuring a sentence or

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Speaker 3: thinking a bit deeper there, then it really is around

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Speaker 3: meaning making. And this is why I love narrative therapy

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Speaker 3: so much, because it's your experience, but you can then

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Speaker 3: get it out of your brain, not have to worry

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Speaker 3: about it anymore, and move forward because that has been processed.

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Speaker 1: Right. So I was very lucky to get an early

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Speaker 1: copy of your book and it arrived with most wonderful stationary.

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Speaker 3: Yes, they do a great job over there.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it was great. It was really good, and I

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Speaker 1: very much most of the exercises I have seen before,

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Speaker 1: and I like, I wonder, is it like magicians when

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Speaker 1: they get don't tell them how we saw the lady

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Speaker 1: in half? You get a bot for everyone? Like do

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Speaker 1: other psychologists say like, hey, Tammy, come and keep the lin.

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Speaker 3: On this wom Yeah, honestly, you know what that was

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Speaker 3: actually a really big fear when I pull this together

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Speaker 3: that I would get a bit of pushback from the industry.

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Speaker 3: But I think the key is that this is not

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Speaker 3: a substitute for therapy. This is something in between. And

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Speaker 3: there's a huge section at the back around how to

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Speaker 3: actually seek professional help because this isn't for everyone. But

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Speaker 3: also I just feel like the more that we improve

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Speaker 3: people's mental health literacy, the better the world. And I

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Speaker 3: really don't think that you're in it for the right reasons.

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Speaker 3: If you are a psychologist or counselor who is like,

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Speaker 3: let's gate keep this information a little bit.

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Speaker 1: What does mental health literacy mean for you? Let's least

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Speaker 1: help kind of explore what exe people might be thinking.

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Speaker 1: Why I know what's going on? Yeah, I mean, what

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Speaker 1: does mental health literacy look like?

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Speaker 3: For me? It's about self education, but also educating about

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Speaker 3: those around you and realizing that there is a lot

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Speaker 3: of stigma out there and breaking that down into facts,

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Speaker 3: which is ironic because a lot of the because around

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Speaker 3: separating facts from feelings, and that's really what this mental

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Speaker 3: health literacy piece is about.

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Speaker 1: For me, It's really hard to understand just because I

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Speaker 1: think it it's not real just because I feel it

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Speaker 1: it's not real?

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Speaker 3: Hang on what such that? It's the takeaway from therapy.

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Speaker 1: Ever, I feel like one of the things you talk

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Speaker 1: about in your book is se credit questioning, which I'm

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Speaker 1: very fortunate to have to have learned from a very

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Speaker 1: clever person. Say I came to you, all right, and

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Speaker 1: you ask me how much do white? It's always a

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Speaker 1: white to me? You cut me off cycle hates all cyclists.

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Speaker 1: How would you use a credit questioning to kind of

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Speaker 1: de escalate that situation and perhaps help me I think

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Speaker 1: differently about what might happen and perhaps even change how

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Speaker 1: I react. Let's say I did get very angry and

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Speaker 1: slap my hand on his bondet or something and shout

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Speaker 1: at him. Yeah, post it on YouTube and be angry,

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Speaker 1: you know, shame him publicly, which many cyclists do saying

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Speaker 1: it's a great idea. I think it's a terrible idea,

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Speaker 1: but it does happen. Say if I showed up at

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Speaker 1: your office, how would you see credit questioning to kind

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Speaker 1: of break that down?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? So, so credit questioning is essentially prompts to separate

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Speaker 3: those facts and feelings. So it would be about asking,

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Speaker 3: you know what evidence exists that this was personal to you,

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Speaker 3: you know, do you.

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Speaker 1: You could tell by the way he looked at me?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, but did he just do you think that

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Speaker 3: maybe he just saw you at the last moment, or

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Speaker 3: do you think that it was personal and he was like, oh,

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Speaker 3: there's usher I'm going to go aim for him.

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Speaker 1: They always cut me off, like because they you know,

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Speaker 1: the last guy said, I always give way to you guys,

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Speaker 1: and now yeah, you are taking up the lane. People

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Speaker 1: hate cycle people like he's just like I'm playing along here,

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Speaker 1: like like all cars hate me, all cars hate me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but how many times have you been on the

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Speaker 3: road where this has happened to you?

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Speaker 1: It happens all the time all the time, but.

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Speaker 3: You're driving safely and you have arrived here, So as

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Speaker 3: a percent, at what point of time or how many

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Speaker 3: times has this happened to you in the entire time

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Speaker 3: that you've ever been on the road.

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Speaker 1: Okay, probably probably less than one.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so maybe this guy was just having a bad day.

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Speaker 1: If you're like, thank you, I appreciate you going with

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Speaker 1: my little improvised at the moment there, that must be

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Speaker 1: really hard when you're dealing with people who have that

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Speaker 1: grievance welded to their identity. Yeah, how do you start

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Speaker 1: to pick at that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? The best lesson that I've learned as a counselor

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Speaker 3: is to be compassionate, and with that comes the knowledge

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Speaker 3: that people don't change every day. They don't change in

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Speaker 3: a day, and so working with them to see themselves

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Speaker 3: as they are is ultimately the best way forward. So

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Speaker 3: if someone comes and is like, I am unworthy of

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Speaker 3: whatever belief or I don't have friends or whatever that

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Speaker 3: belief is that they have, it's about both actively how

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Speaker 3: we just in and doing it quite pointedly saying no,

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Speaker 3: like these are the facts versus what you're feeling, and

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Speaker 3: then just little glimmers of reminders throughout the session of

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Speaker 3: oh you just said that you had coffee with Laura.

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Speaker 3: That is proof then that you have a friend, and

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Speaker 3: just reminding them of those little things throughout the session.

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Speaker 3: You don't believe me?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, people could get real stuck in this stuff.

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Speaker 3: People do, but I think it depends what kind of

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Speaker 3: therapist you are. But I think the more that you

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Speaker 3: remind them in a calm way, and it's not so

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Speaker 3: direct as well, you can say, oh, so you had

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Speaker 3: a good time with Laura, that's great. She sounds like

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Speaker 3: a good friend. Is where that they start to just

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Speaker 3: pick it up.

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Speaker 1: Can we tell if we're using our identity as the

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Speaker 1: sh shield to stop us from taking responsibility for our

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Speaker 1: part to play, including how we did or didn't act,

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Speaker 1: or did or didn't think about.

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Speaker 3: It something, it's kind of flipped. So if you think

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Speaker 3: of it as using your diagnosis and I'm air quoting

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Speaker 3: that because there's a whole section in the book and

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Speaker 3: conversation in the industry around what diagnosis is in today's

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Speaker 3: social media world, but using that as a crutch for

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Speaker 3: not doing things. So I like to think of just

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Speaker 3: in humanity a difference between reasons and excuses. And I

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Speaker 3: believe that a lot of people with conditions like anxiety

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Speaker 3: or similar will believe that they cannot do things because

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Speaker 3: of their anxiety versus because they are anxious. And when

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Speaker 3: you personalize and internalize that into your identity, becomes a

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Speaker 3: lot easier to just be like, oh, I can't do

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Speaker 3: that because of this, and you kind of close your

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Speaker 3: life up a bit. Whereas if you say I've got

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Speaker 3: anxiety or I am experiencing anxiety, but I'm going to

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Speaker 3: try the thing anyway, that just opens up opportunities to you.

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Speaker 3: So I think it's more around your identity not being

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Speaker 3: so attached to this unhelpful problem condition you're presenting problem

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Speaker 3: for therapy so that you can work through it, which

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Speaker 3: is about separating it from yourself.

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Speaker 1: Because ultimately, as you just described, ultimately, then hey, great

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Speaker 1: you've got the diagnosis. You might even get some meds.

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Speaker 1: Ye great, you get to go and sit in an

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Speaker 1: office and talk to someone. But if you are still

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Speaker 1: lowering your choice and your life to be limited, then

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Speaker 1: you are nowhere from where you were for sort help.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, and.

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Speaker 1: That's quite a barrier to leap over sometimes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. And I think the differentiation of you are a

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Speaker 3: person who is experiencing X versus you are a person

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Speaker 3: with X. When you think about that, it's such a

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Speaker 3: powerful separator. You know, you are a person who is

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Speaker 3: tall is a trait that you have. It's something that's

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Speaker 3: it's definitely it's a fact. And so if you talk

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Speaker 3: about experiencing height, yes, well, I mean it doesn't quite

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Speaker 3: work in that way. But what you're saying is, you

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Speaker 3: know it's a trait, it's built in you. You cannot

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Speaker 3: separate it. From yourself. It's a lot easier to control something.

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Speaker 1: But a tall person will still learn across their life.

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Speaker 1: And I know someone made of mine seven foot two.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 1: And this person has been this tall since I don't

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Speaker 1: know their teens, and this person has learned. If I'm

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Speaker 1: going to walk through anyone's house but mine, because their

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Speaker 1: house is built for them.

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Speaker 3: Yep.

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Speaker 1: If I'm going to walk through anyone's house but mine,

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Speaker 1: I duck. You got a duck when I go through

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Speaker 1: through doorways. Therefore, they're taking responsibility for their condition, and

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Speaker 1: they're not asking everybody else.

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Speaker 2: Not.

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Speaker 1: Every one of you has to every one of your

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Speaker 1: architraves has to be modified. If I'm going to come

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Speaker 1: work here, exactly, you need to make the world for me. No,

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Speaker 1: they take responsibility for what it is and they go

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Speaker 1: through life.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Good, that analogy accident.

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Speaker 1: You're welcome. You can put it in book. You're just fine.

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Speaker 1: There was a book. I'm not going to say it

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Speaker 1: out loud, but there was a book that was even

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Speaker 1: given to me and my wife by our celebrant. It

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Speaker 1: was to do with languages, and it was given to

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Speaker 1: us as if this is everything you ever need to know,

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Speaker 1: and it's recently come out that mate, the cohort of

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Speaker 1: people that that book was written about with is quite

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Speaker 1: upper middle class, white church people that had very few,

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Speaker 1: if any financial problems, and literally every family looked exactly

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Speaker 1: the same. They all went to the same school, d

381
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Speaker 1: da da da, And it's this tiny, twenty tiny look cohort.

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Speaker 1: And that's not I've heard people go, he doesn't understand

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Speaker 1: me because he doesn't do acts of service. Yeah, he's

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Speaker 1: been doing acts of service for the last five fucking years.

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Speaker 1: But they don't look like it says here, So you

386
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Speaker 1: not seen them. So I'd like to think that I

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Speaker 1: wonder if you know your take on this is finding

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Speaker 1: a commonality in values a more powerful thing to look

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Speaker 1: for in a partner.

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Speaker 3: You know the book you're talking about, it's definitely been

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Speaker 3: posed some holes in that one, for sure. There are

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Speaker 3: so many values, so purely let's play a numbers game.

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Speaker 3: Compared to say five that says hundreds of values that

394
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Speaker 3: are out there, Yeah, you're more likely to have a

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Speaker 3: bigger human experience across those different things. I think, yes,

396
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Speaker 3: you need at least some values to connect with a partner.

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Speaker 3: I don't believe that it needs to be all of them.

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Speaker 3: I actually think that could be a little bit more.

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Speaker 3: But I think if you have a few common values

400
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Speaker 3: and more how you want to live your life, which

401
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:11,679
Speaker 3: is ultimately what values are, they're kind of a moral

402
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Speaker 3: even more than that compass towards. As long as I'm

403
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Speaker 3: living to these things, then I'm going to be happy.

404
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Speaker 3: I'm going to be able to deal with whatever adversity

405
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Speaker 3: comes for us. So things like family, if you really

406
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Speaker 3: value family and you value parenting, even then that's a

407
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 3: pretty good common value to have with the person you

408
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Speaker 3: want to spend the rest of your life with. But

409
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Speaker 3: if it's things like what you like to do with

410
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Speaker 3: your spare time, you know, I really value creativity, for instance,

411
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Speaker 3: my partner values nature. I don't so much. So I

412
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Speaker 3: would say that's doable in a relationship because on our

413
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Speaker 3: spare days when we have time off, I will sit

414
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Speaker 3: and read a book or do some something creative. He

415
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Speaker 3: can go outside for a walk, and we both get

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Speaker 3: fulfilled in those ways. But we come back together in

417
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Speaker 3: our shared values of respect and loyalty, etc.

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Speaker 1: And finding out what your own values are is I've

419
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Speaker 1: found it to be almost like the source code for

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Speaker 1: just figuring out what the fuck to do next. Honestly,

421
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Speaker 1: it's really important when faced with choice points in life,

422
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Speaker 1: around work, around relationships, around who to vote for, around whatever.

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Speaker 1: I was quite confronted the first time I figured out

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Speaker 1: my own values, like, oh, I'm not the kind of

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Speaker 1: wild lefty thing that I thought I was. Aha. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And it was confronting at first.

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Speaker 3: It changes your identity or what you thought that you

428
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Speaker 3: were putting out there for sure. The section in the

429
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Speaker 3: book actually lists all of the values and then has

430
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Speaker 3: the what are you living to now? But actually what

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Speaker 3: do you want to be living to? And those are

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Speaker 3: often really different, and so then it just it almost

433
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Speaker 3: ignites this is what I need to change or what

434
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Speaker 3: I need to focus on in order to be a

435
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,959
Speaker 3: little bit happier. Values are so interesting. I love them.

436
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Speaker 3: They get a bit of a stick in the industry, though.

437
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 3: I think if you just say these are your values,

438
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 3: go and live to them, it can be a bit irresponsible.

439
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 3: I did some wonderful work with an alcohol and other

440
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 3: drug company, and a lot of those clients were mandated

441
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:38,400
Speaker 3: to come to session to group session, often after jail time, etc.

442
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:44,160
Speaker 3: And we talked a lot about values around things like loyalty,

443
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,879
Speaker 3: which seems like a wonderful value. But then when it's not.

444
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,159
Speaker 3: When you're doing things because you want to be loyal,

445
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 3: but actually they're they're criminal, yeah, or they're going to

446
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 3: put you in bad situations, you need to question what

447
00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 3: that value means to you.

448
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 1: I think the sooner the year could figure out that stuff,

449
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,160
Speaker 1: the better, because there's certainly choices that as a young

450
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:09,640
Speaker 1: man I made that were not in alignment with how

451
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 1: I felt about the world. They were in alignment with

452
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,359
Speaker 1: how another person felt about the world. But I've I

453
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 1: wanted their approval more than I wanted to look after myself,

454
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:24,200
Speaker 1: and then I ended up in perilous places after which

455
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,919
Speaker 1: I sha'n't name. But I'm not alone in that. I

456
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 1: think many teenage boys go through that stuff.

457
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 3: It's oh yeah, I mean that we haven't gotten into

458
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:38,160
Speaker 3: the gender of it. All the men in this situation

459
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,640
Speaker 3: with mental health just have this higher stigma associated.

460
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,160
Speaker 1: Let's ask let me ask about that. What is it?

461
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,159
Speaker 1: Just a quick break from Tammy Miller to say that

462
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 1: if you want to support the show, there's two ways

463
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 1: you can do it. Number won't get on the newsletter

464
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 1: the links in the show notes, and number two tell

465
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 1: a friend. That's it. Every download for us is, to

466
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 1: be honest, is more dollars for us, and so you

467
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 1: get to access the show without spending any money at all,

468
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 1: and we get to make sure the lights stay on

469
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,679
Speaker 1: and it's nice. So please tell a friend if this

470
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 1: show is useful for you, and we'll be back in

471
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: a moment. I never experienced stigma from anybody else. It

472
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: was self stigma. I was offered any depressants when I

473
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 1: was twenty five. I didn't take them until I was

474
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 1: thirty two, when I got really, really sick and my

475
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 1: doctor said, take these anti psychotics if you need them.

476
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 1: I was like, well, if I don't take them, I

477
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 1: don't need them. I didn't want to be a person

478
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 1: that took anty psychotics someone when I got sobers like,

479
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 1: I didn't want to be a person that had to

480
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: stop drinking. It was a self stigma that fucked me up.

481
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 1: It wasn't anybody else. Is that the case generally or

482
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: was it? Like? Am I an anomaly?

483
00:26:55,880 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 3: That definitely not an anomaly. I think when you step

484
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 3: back and think about all of these role models I

485
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 3: guess that we've seen through TV, through books, through just personalities.

486
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:17,199
Speaker 3: It's not the done way to not be you know,

487
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,360
Speaker 3: tough and strong and a provider and fine if you're

488
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 3: a male, and it's an incredibly scary situation to put

489
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 3: your hand up and say, hey, I'm a bit vulnerable,

490
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 3: I might need medication to function better, or I'm having

491
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 3: some really dark thoughts. I maybe need to speak to somebody.

492
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,719
Speaker 3: And we don't tell our mates that because then they

493
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 3: might see us as weak, or you know, we don't

494
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 3: tell our partners that because you need to be the

495
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 3: head of the family. You know, this is all very

496
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,919
Speaker 3: you know, hopefully decades ago, but I definitely think that

497
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 3: it's still in our lives and even therapy, like the

498
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 3: stigma around going to therapy is still there. The stigma

499
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 3: about mental health is definitely breaking thanks to things like

500
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 3: your book and this podcast, but the stigma about and

501
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 3: I go to a therapist to seek support is still

502
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 3: quite strong.

503
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 1: I do worry about the role of men and voice

504
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 1: in Australia because it's who knows what the nobody knows

505
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,679
Speaker 1: what we're supposed to do. Nobody. It's real hard. Do

506
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: you notice that when you're in practice? Do you notice,

507
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: you know, do men come to you and say, I

508
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 1: don't know what's happening. I earn less than my wife,

509
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,439
Speaker 1: and that's great, but I don't know what to do

510
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:36,880
Speaker 1: about it.

511
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's it's the crisis with men that

512
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 3: I see is more so around that what the identity is,

513
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 3: What do I have to offer? I actually haven't seen

514
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 3: too many clients in family situations, but it's the the

515
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 3: single men, single HEATERO. Men coming to me to say,

516
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 3: I do all the right things, where's the relationship, where's

517
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 3: the wife, where's the girlfriend? Where is this? And they

518
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 3: are though on that impenetrable area. You know, I've done X,

519
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 3: Y Z, I've ticked all the boxes, but there's very

520
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 3: little emotion in there until we sort of drill down

521
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 3: to it. So it's almost breaking down the archetype of

522
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 3: this is what it's going to be, and having more

523
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 3: here's that one again, vulnerable conversations around what whole men

524
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 3: look like.

525
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. I see it with our youngest so we got

526
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: two once twenty ones, nearly five, and I see the

527
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 1: stuff he does at daycare, and I see the things

528
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 1: that we went on the tour of his school he's

529
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 1: starting soon. And I see the way they talk about

530
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 1: emotions and feelings in a way that I never ever, ever,

531
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: ever ever saw ever through my entireh schooling yelps seventeen,

532
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 1: not once and normalizing that kind of stuff. And so

533
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: I've got great faith and hope for him and G

534
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: as well, Like G's cohort is extraordinarily emotionally intelligent kids.

535
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 1: It's the middle bit, you know, it's the people younger

536
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: than me down to the kind of mid twenties. Yeah,

537
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 1: because we can only learn off our parents really.

538
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that there is a massive disconnect between that

539
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 3: generation of almost the Internet generation. It's like, oh cool,

540
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 3: I get it, Like I'm learning and I can self learn,

541
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 3: and the parents above that are No, this is the

542
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 3: done way, and this is you push your feelings down.

543
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it's simple. Ceminon addicts, all right, pressure is

544
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 1: going to escape. Yeah, eventually, if the vessel cannot hold,

545
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 1: it's going to blow. Don't care who you are in

546
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 1: some way, it's going to come out. The energy will

547
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 1: leave your body somehow, no matter what. So what would

548
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 1: you say to people who maybe you know themselves in

549
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: that kind of middle zone, who are finding them you

550
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: know they're doing all the right things, but it's just

551
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: not working. Or perhaps parents of all the kids who

552
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 1: are looking like, come on, man, can you all move out?

553
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: What's going on?

554
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 3: Yeah?

555
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: What would you say to people in that situation?

556
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 3: I think just talk to someone, and I don't mean

557
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 3: a therapist. That's all obviously great, but again we've talked

558
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 3: about the limitations there. But talk to somebody who might

559
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 3: be in a similar situation to you. Talk to talk

560
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 3: to a friend and be open with them and just

561
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 3: say this is kind of what I'm thinking. What do

562
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 3: you reckon? Do some light doctor google searching, you know,

563
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 3: do that one a little bit, but take it with

564
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 3: a grain of salt and then sense check it against

565
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 3: a reputable source and also just check like local sources

566
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 3: that you can have a chat to. There's so many great,

567
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 3: amazing underfunded lifeline kind of organizations that you can chat

568
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 3: to for a bit of information.

569
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 1: Too, incredibly underfunded for people in those situations who might

570
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 1: be finding themselves in that I'm doing everything right, you know,

571
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 1: I've got on dates and I'm getting nothing, or I'm

572
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 1: just going from transactional sexual relationship to transactional sexual relationship

573
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: and on both sides, there's no not just saying that,

574
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 1: you know, men are the only people that can be

575
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: in this still kind of fortress of safety. Yes, there's

576
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: definitely women who will not you know, will not drop

577
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 1: a guard at all, and you'll get a version of

578
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 1: you get a version of them that isn't actually who

579
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: they are. With a notebook with your pen when you're

580
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: sitting down, if you were to say, listen, you know

581
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: I've written this book paperback therapy. If you find yourself

582
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 1: in the situation, he's an exercise that might be beneficial

583
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: to you. What would you just.

584
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 3: Going through all of them? In my mind, the focus

585
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 3: on what you can control is really good because that

586
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 3: ultimately helps you to list down the factors that you're

587
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 3: able to control and the factors that you aren't. So

588
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 3: it can get incredibly demoralizing and just honestly exhausting being

589
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 3: on the apps and constantly getting no's for some reason.

590
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 3: But what you can't control how people react to you.

591
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 3: But what you can control is how often you engage

592
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 3: with them or what else you can do to meet people.

593
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 3: For instance, in that regard, if you're actually on the

594
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 3: date and things aren't going out planned, or you're coming

595
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 3: up against someone who's quite guarded, it might be just

596
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 3: a chance to look back at the values and say,

597
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 3: look at am I actually choosing the right people that

598
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 3: would meet up with my values? Am I still in

599
00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 3: this other situation of picking other people then might not

600
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 3: be right?

601
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 2: Yeah?

602
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 3: So it's so cliche, But doing the work for yourself

603
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,319
Speaker 3: to find out what makes you tick just eliminates so

604
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 3: much noise from when you actually are out and trying

605
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,280
Speaker 3: to meet other people that have similar values or similar

606
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 3: interests to your own.

607
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 1: There's a someone in my last who I think they

608
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:26,919
Speaker 1: have had a number of short term shall we say,

609
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 1: people that they introduce as their girlfriend. I mean they

610
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: all look the same, A number of them have the

611
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 1: same name.

612
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 3: Wow.

613
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 1: Is there an exercise that one may do to sit

614
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 1: down and actually kind of almost do a post campaign

615
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: report almost, to sit down and look the previous relationships

616
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 1: and go, this is the person that was and just

617
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 1: maybe perhaps identify. In you know, the twelve step program

618
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 1: I'm a part of, they talk about your pick has broken,

619
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,879
Speaker 1: like who you're choosing? That thing inside you that thinks

620
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 1: it knows what it wants is actually the thing that

621
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: might be broken. It's not you or them, it's just

622
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: this thing. Is there something that you can do that

623
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 1: involves writing down that can help you kind of ascertain

624
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 1: what that might look like.

625
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 3: I don't think this is in the book, but asking

626
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 3: the question why could be the book? So this book

627
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 3: ultimately could be two posters.

628
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 1: One is, look, we say honest, back when we did

629
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:35,280
Speaker 1: Australian Idol the whole reveal, because there was a performance

630
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 1: on a Sunday and the reveal on a Monday, we

631
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 1: literally could do the reveal in a thirty second ad break.

632
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,879
Speaker 1: We stretch it to a ninety minute show. All right, mate,

633
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 1: come on you go.

634
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 3: We won't show hard. The sausage is made.

635
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 1: Always like, yes, it could be two posters. That's fine, hah,

636
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 1: it's better if it's a book. The posters will you

637
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 1: can sell it all live shows as much as you go. Done,

638
00:35:58,080 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 1: sell it as much.

639
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, in the notes section, grab your pen and

640
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 3: write down this person's ideal person so they always look

641
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,719
Speaker 3: like brown hair, really tall, really curvy, whatever. Then ask

642
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 3: the question why because I'm attracted to that? Okay? But

643
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,319
Speaker 3: why because my first girlfriend looked like that? Okay? But

644
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 3: why does that matter to you? Because I had a

645
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,800
Speaker 3: really great relationship with that first girlfriend and I miss

646
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,879
Speaker 3: them now. Okay, But why did you have a great

647
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,800
Speaker 3: relationship with that person because she was caring. Okay, maybe

648
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 3: that's the thing that you can go with next instead

649
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 3: of just what she looks like.

650
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 1: Wow, as well ask why five times?

651
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, just keep asking it until you can't ask it anymore.

652
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:51,359
Speaker 1: Just keep going yeah, wow, that's I had to do that,

653
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 1: and I've done it a few times in relation, you know,

654
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 1: I had to do it. I guess in what's the

655
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 1: word in like essentially an autopsy relationships. Yeah, and it

656
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 1: really helped me identify, like, ah, all right, it's me.

657
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 1: I'm the one who has been choosing things that were

658
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 1: They were fine, they were who they were. It's not

659
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,839
Speaker 1: their fault. But I was asking people who weren't what

660
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,240
Speaker 1: I wanted to be something they weren't, yes, and getting

661
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:18,879
Speaker 1: upset at them for that. Yeah, that's not fair.

662
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 3: No, you're not fair to either of you, not at all.

663
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:25,280
Speaker 1: It's not fair at all. You know, I'm very lucky

664
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 1: that my current relationship was a setup. So my current relationship,

665
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 1: what the fuck am I talking about?

666
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:35,359
Speaker 3: My wonderful marriage you just celebrated.

667
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 1: By It's funny I do. This is my current wife, Audrey,

668
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 1: She's not a forever. It's really fun It's like this

669
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,959
Speaker 1: is my current husband or my future ex husband. Yeah,

670
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 1: it's really funny, I think because people don't know what

671
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: to do with that. It's kind of funny. Yeah, yeah,

672
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:54,359
Speaker 1: it's cute, but it's important to kind of see, Oh

673
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 1: why is that. I went up to this guy and

674
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:57,359
Speaker 1: I couldn't understand what I was like, Oh, he looked

675
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 1: exactly like a guy that I've been years before that.

676
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 1: Oh it was nothing about WHOI nothing at all.

677
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, that one's pretty common.

678
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,439
Speaker 1: Shame we got to figure that out.

679
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 3: It's such a but once you do, it's like, oh,

680
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 3: how stupid. Then I'm going after someone who looks a

681
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 3: certain way. Like it's fine to have a type, but

682
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:24,280
Speaker 3: if it's getting in the way of functioning relationship, maybe

683
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 3: look at why even.

684
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 1: Why do I have a type?

685
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 3: Yeah?

686
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 1: Well I would ask I would ask why a one

687
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 1: hundred times in a row about type, because that's I

688
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 1: don't know about that.

689
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 3: Some of those things, I think, though, are nice to nose,

690
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 3: and some of them are, Oh I need to change it.

691
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:40,359
Speaker 1: That's pretty bad.

692
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 3: You know, you might just have a type because that's

693
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 3: what you grew up with around you know, a lot

694
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 3: of people of Asian background actively in Australia, actively date

695
00:38:56,080 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 3: non Asian so that they want to have that feeling

696
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 3: of belonging into the new culture in Australia. And that

697
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 3: is a one to dig down and say, Okay, but

698
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 3: why why why because you're you might be missing out

699
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 3: or disconnect by your culture and what does that mean

700
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,319
Speaker 3: in the widest scheme of things. Yeah, but if it's

701
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 3: just I like dudes with beards.

702
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,319
Speaker 1: Like no one could probably even believe that writing things

703
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 1: down pen to paper could make you feel less angry.

704
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 1: You know, we're told punch a pillow or do a

705
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 1: boxing class, or go just go for a walk or

706
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 1: walk it off, like no, sit down, write some stuff out,

707
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 1: Like how what does an anger management strategy on pen

708
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: and paper look like?

709
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,359
Speaker 3: The getting it out is really key. So I think

710
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:49,720
Speaker 3: a lot of us just don't process what is happening

711
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,400
Speaker 3: and why we're angry. So if you just put it

712
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 3: down and look, this isn't to say that you're not

713
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 3: furiously writing and tearing holes in the pages because you're

714
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 3: doing it angrily. But getting that information and saying this

715
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 3: really impacted me enables you to see the anger. I

716
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 3: see the hurt that is also in there as well

717
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:09,759
Speaker 3: and try and make sense of it.

718
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,879
Speaker 1: All we ever want really is to be seen, all right.

719
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:15,240
Speaker 1: Love is attention. That's it if you want the secret

720
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,959
Speaker 1: to any relationship, and love is attention or food which

721
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 1: is also attentionent. But you know, the idea that I

722
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 1: just want someone to see how shit this was for me,

723
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 1: that's it. But if you're writing it down on paper,

724
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 1: are we almost giving ourselves that feeling without having to

725
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 1: involve another person.

726
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, like you said, it's being seen. So

727
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 3: if you just have it in your brain going over

728
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,839
Speaker 3: and over, it's not productive. There's nothing happening there. There's

729
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 3: no next step, whereas writing it out and getting it

730
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 3: out is the step that is Okay, I've taken that

731
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 3: one step, what's the next one that I can do.

732
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,319
Speaker 3: So there's the process of getting it out. There's the

733
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 3: process of what you do once it's out. Do you

734
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 3: you know there's the ritually stick thing where people might

735
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:02,879
Speaker 3: burn it if it's a letter to a loved one

736
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 3: or this works really well in grief too. You write

737
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 3: a letter to somebody who may have passed away that

738
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 3: you didn't get to say what you wanted to and

739
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,719
Speaker 3: then just don't post it. That was just your exercise.

740
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 3: But it's just getting that emotion out in the best

741
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 3: safe place because it's not to anyone, not even to

742
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 3: your therapist.

743
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 1: I've been a funerals where people put letters in the coffin.

744
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, beautiful exercise.

745
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:27,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know what was written there. No one's

746
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 1: going to dive down and go hang on, I say it. Yeah,

747
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: it's before the dirt goes down. You know, people throw

748
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 1: notes down there. I've seen that. Yeah, but for them,

749
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 1: who knows what it means. It might be I had

750
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:40,839
Speaker 1: a great time watching the sunset with you that day,

751
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 1: or like you owed me one hundred and eighty seven

752
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: dollars and he never paid it back, you motherfucker.

753
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, but that would be a cathartic experience for both

754
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 3: of those people.

755
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:55,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I just it's fascinating how we can kind

756
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 1: of like nothing change. That person still doesn't have the

757
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: one hundred and eighty seven dollars. Yeah, the only thing

758
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 1: that changes they have given their another part of their

759
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 1: brain that's holding this thing a reason to let it go. Yeah, Like,

760
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 1: oh it's done. Now they've closed the loops.

761
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 3: It's closure exactly, Isn't that why.

762
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:14,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, we have this other bit of our brain that

763
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 1: we need to lead around like a toddler.

764
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 3: Our brains are toddlers. It's it's the white question. That's

765
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 3: the question that the babies ask, right, why is the

766
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,839
Speaker 3: sky blue? But why is the car red? Like they

767
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 3: that's those are questions they ask. Our brains are toddlers.

768
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:32,839
Speaker 3: We just want to know why, and we just want

769
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 3: to be seen, be connected.

770
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,880
Speaker 1: And much like toddlers, if you give them a shitty

771
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:41,839
Speaker 1: answer or lie to them, yes, sell eventual, just to

772
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 1: just to get where you need to get them to

773
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 1: eat the whatever it is, or go to sleep. We'll

774
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 1: get in the bath. Eventually that will come and buy

775
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: you in the house. Ye, so you may as well

776
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 1: be honest.

777
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 3: Yes, so good.

778
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 1: Yes, it's true. Though, it's true when you're when you're

779
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 1: in a relationship or you're at work or whatever, and

780
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: people are you know, you've got remitting one pie to

781
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 1: four and three cans of coke. Okay, they may like,

782
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 1: how can we use you know, writing things down to

783
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 1: perhaps look at our own habits that may not be serving.

784
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 3: Us for our own habits. There's a section in the

785
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 3: book called Stages of change and motivational interviewing forms into that.

786
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:31,840
Speaker 3: It's really commonly used in addiction therapy and as essentially

787
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 3: recognizing that you can change, but only if you're in

788
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 3: a certain stage of change.

789
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: I'm very aware of it because of the experience that

790
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 1: I've had in this space. But this might be the

791
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 1: first time someone's thinking about this or have possibly heard it.

792
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 1: When someone realizes a few people in a row of

793
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:52,399
Speaker 1: talk to me about whatever it is that I'm doing.

794
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 1: We're smoking, vaping, eating, you know whatever, philandering, spending money

795
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 1: on nothing to get from there to a healthier way

796
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 1: of being. There are stages of change. You're right about

797
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:07,439
Speaker 1: this in the book For people who don't know, could

798
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: you take us through those changes those states?

799
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 2: Please?

800
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 3: So there's pre contemplation, which is essentially I'm aware of it,

801
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 3: but I don't want to do anything about it. I

802
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 3: love vaping, it's the best. There's contemplation when maybe those

803
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 3: people have said, hey, you vape a lot, or it's

804
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 3: impacting me when we go out because I have to

805
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 3: come outside with you or whatever, and you're like, oh,

806
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:34,240
Speaker 3: maybe I should change. Maybe I'm all okay. There's action

807
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 3: when you sort of take the do some research and

808
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 3: start taking action to change. There's maintenance, which is where

809
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 3: you've changed, you're good, you're ongoing, you haven't had a

810
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 3: vapor ages, or you only do it on what the

811
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 3: agreed boundary is with you and those people. And then

812
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 3: there is relapse, which is part of the stages of change,

813
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 3: which is quite interesting because you would think that's not

814
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 3: that's not a change model, and it's also like maybe

815
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 3: it's quite negative, but it's really important that relapse is

816
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:12,320
Speaker 3: in there because it's a wheel, and so you ultimately

817
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:16,359
Speaker 3: then recognize that you can immediately go back to pre

818
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 3: contemplation and keep going. Just because you relapse to it

819
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:21,760
Speaker 3: doesn't mean it's over. That's not the end of the line.

820
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:24,880
Speaker 1: And it's also important for people around whoever we're talking

821
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 1: about to understand that relapse is.

822
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:30,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, it has a.

823
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 1: High probability yep, if various things of work hasn't been done.

824
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 1: It can be really easy. Yeah, definitely, just the right situation,

825
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:44,879
Speaker 1: the right football team in winning something that it will

826
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 1: happen before they even think. They won't even have a

827
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 1: chance to think about it. But the windows are you know,

828
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: sometimes open for a long time and sometimes just minutes

829
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 1: go by, and then like, no, I'm not going to

830
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 1: call and get a spot at fuck you.

831
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 3: Yes, so true, And look, it's a wheel, but people

832
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 3: can go any direction on that wheel for sure.

833
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 1: So when we're writing stuff down, when we're using our

834
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 1: pen and paper, so we are in pre contemplative or

835
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 1: contemplative yeap, what does that look like?

836
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,759
Speaker 3: So essentially saying is this enough of a problem that

837
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 3: I am willing to change it now? And you might

838
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:23,799
Speaker 3: say no, I'm totally fine with it.

839
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 1: If I'm on my addict, of course I'm saying no,

840
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 1: it's a problem.

841
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 3: Yeah. And the unfortunate thing is sometimes that will take

842
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 3: a big thing to push you into the next stage.

843
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,359
Speaker 1: Those things can get pretty big. Yeah, I only got

844
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:40,279
Speaker 1: a do ui because the cops are never on that street. Yes,

845
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:41,320
Speaker 1: it's not my fault.

846
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 3: And let's go back to socratic questioning here.

847
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 1: It can get I've seen a lot of it. Yeah,

848
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 1: it sucks having to wait. Yeah, as a person who

849
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 1: loves the other person, it's the worst.

850
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:55,359
Speaker 3: And so this is where motivational interviewing comes in, which

851
00:46:55,400 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 3: is essentially saying what can I do to move you along?

852
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 3: So you say that you are happy, and yet you said,

853
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 3: on the other hand, that you might be happy with this,

854
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 3: which of those things is more important to you? And

855
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,280
Speaker 3: moving it across And that's in the book as well

856
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 3: and is around you know, asking the right questions to

857
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:20,439
Speaker 3: help that person identify that maybe they're saying that they're

858
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 3: happy and fine with it, but actually they could be happier.

859
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 1: If someone's thinking, I should probably explore what this might

860
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 1: look like, where would you start with that? You know,

861
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 1: say you've got five minutes before that everybody wakes up,

862
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 1: all right, set the one five minutes earlier. What's something

863
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 1: that you think if you had just that amount of

864
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 1: time a day, what would you tell them to do?

865
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 3: And they've never done, ever done before? Rating self esteem

866
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:50,320
Speaker 3: is a really big one and it's peppered throughout the

867
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 3: book too. To really look inwards and ask yourself, like

868
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 3: how do I feel about myself? Because that all of

869
00:47:56,440 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 3: those things are layer back up to thatally, just quick

870
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,360
Speaker 3: one to ten, are you do you hate yourself? Do

871
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 3: you love yourself in the good way? And what where

872
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:10,400
Speaker 3: do you sit on that scale? Because being that honest

873
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,359
Speaker 3: with ourselves doesn't come around often. And then I would

874
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 3: do one gratitude prompt, what are you so thankful for?

875
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:22,359
Speaker 3: Or what's something that I love about myself? And then

876
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 3: one prompt, what is something that I can work on

877
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 3: to better love myself or better my self esteem. Those

878
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 3: two things put you in a really positive mindset that

879
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:36,279
Speaker 3: change can happen, and also allow us to reflect on

880
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 3: not everything is shit.

881
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:43,759
Speaker 1: Self esteem is. Yeah, again, it's very seventies eighties seeing ah,

882
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 1: It's led to a lot of positive things looked at a

883
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 1: lot of not very good things when it comes to

884
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 1: building self esteem. Like when you said, what's one thing

885
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 1: that I could do? What kind of things we're looking at?

886
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 3: Knowing the values is a big one because it just

887
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:57,799
Speaker 3: shuts out all that noise and means that if something

888
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:01,319
Speaker 3: external is impacting us, we can just wipe it away

889
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:05,399
Speaker 3: like teflon. It's easy. But then it is doing things

890
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:11,880
Speaker 3: and being around people and curating your input to reflect

891
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:16,479
Speaker 3: better choices for self esteem. We talk a lot about

892
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 3: social media and how you know you can be super

893
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 3: negative and you compare yourself to others. And you know,

894
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:25,799
Speaker 3: a lot of my clients, professional women who say, oh,

895
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 3: I'm really inspired by all these accounts of people who

896
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 3: go to the gym and who run, and sometimes we

897
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 3: challenge that and say, okay, but are you inspired by

898
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:41,280
Speaker 3: or is it something that makes you feel bad about yourself?

899
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 3: Are you saying, oh, they're at the gym and I'm

900
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 3: not at the gym. I feel really bad and that

901
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 3: impacts your self esteem. So one of the very first

902
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 3: things in terms of when clients come to me and

903
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 3: say I'm ready to do the homework, what can I

904
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 3: do is curate your social media by muting anyone that

905
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 3: doesn't bring you joy. If you get that ick feeling

906
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 3: in your stomach from doing or seeing something again social

907
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 3: media otherwise, time to eliminate that so that you can

908
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 3: start to focus on what makes you feel good and

909
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 3: then start to believe to your point that you are worthy.

910
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 1: The democratization of broadcast has led to many wonderful things,

911
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:29,120
Speaker 1: maybe not wonderful things true, and we're about to see

912
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 1: where recording this right after Biden has like on the

913
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:34,920
Speaker 1: day that Biden has an outsia step yea. So it's

914
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 1: going to be an interesting couple of months. Speaking of

915
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:39,839
Speaker 1: your things, I can control things I can't control. That's

916
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 1: a pretty good circle to start on.

917
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 3: If you haven't yet get on that.

918
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 1: It's going to be an interesting couple of months for

919
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 1: a planet, but algorithms figure us out pretty quickly. And

920
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 1: you mentioned doctor Google earlier. If we're starting to look

921
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:58,880
Speaker 1: at YouTube videos about I don't know relationships, or we

922
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 1: hear the word narcissism and we think X must have

923
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 1: been a narcissist, we're starting We're going to start to

924
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 1: get fed, stuffy and me and we're going to start

925
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 1: hearing words that very much. How should I put this?

926
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:20,560
Speaker 1: Clinically defined words that require testing and diagnoses to attribute

927
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 1: to versus When people say, oh, just a little at ocd. No,

928
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 1: you're fucking not you just like things tidy. No, you

929
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:33,359
Speaker 1: can actually you'll be fine. If that isn't the way

930
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,399
Speaker 1: it is, all right, you're not And are you ADHD said,

931
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:38,279
Speaker 1: I must be my ADHD? Have you been diosed? No,

932
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 1: go to the fucking test man. When you hear people

933
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:45,440
Speaker 1: and there's all kinds of stuff like there was that

934
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:48,440
Speaker 1: was that thing? The tiktop tic? Yes, that shit is

935
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 1: fascinating and where does that go? You know the idea

936
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:59,959
Speaker 1: of mimicking behavior or taking a term that is really

937
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 1: quite clinical and very very specific and just throwing it

938
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:08,319
Speaker 1: out into the world and someone identifying is that if

939
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 1: we feel that we might maybe I've got that, maybe

940
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 1: that's me. What would you say you should do?

941
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:22,759
Speaker 3: This is so common, So I think those communities and

942
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 3: following those hashtags of you know, neurodivergen or ADHD or

943
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:32,840
Speaker 3: anxiety or ticks whichever is fine if you are being

944
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:38,200
Speaker 3: really conscious about it and curious about it, because there's

945
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:41,279
Speaker 3: something to be said in finding your community. But it

946
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 3: is absolutely not a diagnosis, and so they're really good

947
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:47,359
Speaker 3: to say, oh, those symptoms look quite similar to something

948
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:50,240
Speaker 3: that I'm experiencing. Maybe I should look into it more.

949
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:52,319
Speaker 3: And it's that maybe I should look into it more

950
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 3: that is incredibly important, and doing so is going to

951
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,959
Speaker 3: a reputable source, going to seek a diagnosis from your GP,

952
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:04,200
Speaker 3: going to your parents if it's a team, to say hey,

953
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:06,280
Speaker 3: I think this is something I want to look into further.

954
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:10,960
Speaker 3: Going to organizations, you know dot orgs that you can

955
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:15,359
Speaker 3: seek proper information that is researched and referenced from. And

956
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:18,399
Speaker 3: that I think is also part of being a really

957
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:23,360
Speaker 3: responsible therapist on social media is showcasing your accreditations and

958
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:25,920
Speaker 3: what organization you need to be a part of. So

959
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 3: as a follower, following those kinds of people within that

960
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 3: community rather than just I want to be fed everything

961
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:37,200
Speaker 3: that ever comes through with that hashtag. Otherwise it's just

962
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:39,919
Speaker 3: going to be overwhelming. You'll start to see yourself in it.

963
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 3: It becomes that identity and starts tell me.

964
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 1: Not neurodivergent, I am, and then yes, and then what

965
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 1: happens and then you just like, where's that's a slippery,

966
00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:53,400
Speaker 1: slippery slope.

967
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 3: Yeah. So it could be helpful because it's saying, oh,

968
00:53:57,040 --> 00:53:59,319
Speaker 3: maybe this is something I want to look at, but

969
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,280
Speaker 3: it's incredibly unhelpful if that is your only source.

970
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:06,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, the idea that you want some sort of diagnoses

971
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:09,200
Speaker 1: or you want some sort of label so you can

972
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 1: be different. I mean, I haven't eaten animals in a

973
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:13,960
Speaker 1: real long time, and I had this thing the other

974
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:18,040
Speaker 1: day online with some people vegans. Man, they're the fucking

975
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:22,839
Speaker 1: worst because they're idea logues, and part of me is like,

976
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 1: you're not in it for the animals. Yeah, you're in

977
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:27,239
Speaker 1: it because you want to be special. You want to

978
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 1: be able to be cranky at other people. This is

979
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:31,800
Speaker 1: nothing to do with pig farms.

980
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:33,120
Speaker 3: This is just you.

981
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:36,319
Speaker 1: Feeling that you want to be better than everybody else.

982
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:38,440
Speaker 1: That's not it, man.

983
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:42,320
Speaker 3: That would be a really interesting way to dig into.

984
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:45,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just can't get my head around that. And

985
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:51,279
Speaker 1: I have seen similar since my you know, speaking out

986
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 1: about all the various acronyms that I'm connecting, sorry, initialisms

987
00:54:55,280 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 1: that I'm collecting, the the adhda da da da da

988
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:03,280
Speaker 1: of people I have been directed with who are self diagnosed. Yes,

989
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:05,719
Speaker 1: And then when I asked them, is like, which psychiatrist

990
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 1: I can't get into any Okay, how long have you

991
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:14,799
Speaker 1: been trying? I didn't really Yeah, okay, But it goes

992
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:16,960
Speaker 1: back to that whole reasons and excuses you said before,

993
00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:20,000
Speaker 1: going through life just going it's my idea. No, it's

994
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 1: not you're know you're eight age at all? Yeah, that's

995
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:23,280
Speaker 1: not okay.

996
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:28,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, and those these terms do become quite cyclical and

997
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:31,799
Speaker 3: quite sexy. It's you know, you see a lot over

998
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:35,680
Speaker 3: the news. There's a lot around kids in school refusal

999
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:41,040
Speaker 3: and that being used as reasons or excuses or whichever

1000
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:46,719
Speaker 3: it is. And it's just incredibly it's difficult because there

1001
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:49,799
Speaker 3: would also be a difficulty to get in and get

1002
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 3: those diagnoses because there's a flux of people who are like,

1003
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:55,879
Speaker 3: oh no, that's that's who I am as well.

1004
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:57,880
Speaker 1: So this doctor told me, I wasn't, So I'm going

1005
00:55:57,920 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 1: to go see the other one. And they definitely going

1006
00:55:59,920 --> 00:56:01,040
Speaker 1: to the other one and the other one and the

1007
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:02,359
Speaker 1: other one, and they keep telling me no, but they

1008
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:02,680
Speaker 1: don't know.

1009
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:06,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, and then you have to ask yourself,

1010
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 3: why is it so important that you have this new label?

1011
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there's a sorry, I have a thing about it.

1012
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:18,920
Speaker 1: It's not healthy. It's really not healthy. I got asked,

1013
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:22,279
Speaker 1: and so I went and I did three days of

1014
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:24,400
Speaker 1: testing and it turns out I am not on the

1015
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:30,319
Speaker 1: autism spectrum. But I absolutely went and checked. I was

1016
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:31,000
Speaker 1: interested to know.

1017
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:34,919
Speaker 3: Yeah. And I think that again with the privileged piece

1018
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:37,120
Speaker 3: of it as well, like there's it is so hard

1019
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:41,719
Speaker 3: to get in and to get tests, so everything is

1020
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:44,439
Speaker 3: case by case. But I agree what we're talking about

1021
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:46,960
Speaker 3: here is very much. There is a trend of people

1022
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:50,840
Speaker 3: just self diagnosing because they see one or two similar

1023
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 3: symptoms on social media and that's what they want to

1024
00:56:57,320 --> 00:56:58,680
Speaker 3: pick up as a label.

1025
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:05,399
Speaker 1: You don't want it telling you right now. It's there's

1026
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:07,320
Speaker 1: parts of it that are okay, and there's a heap

1027
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 1: of it that makes everything really hard. Yeah, and it's

1028
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:16,280
Speaker 1: not worth It's not worth the justification, and the medication

1029
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:19,200
Speaker 1: makes you really thirsty, as I have nearly emptied my

1030
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:23,840
Speaker 1: entire waterble I get through your life, all right, But yeah,

1031
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 1: you don't want it. But why is it so important

1032
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:29,960
Speaker 1: to you to essentially democratize access to this kind of

1033
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:30,880
Speaker 1: mental health knowledge?

1034
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I've just I've lived it. I've been

1035
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:38,400
Speaker 3: diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder and depression, and I've had

1036
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:46,000
Speaker 3: two suicide attempts, and I do believe that the first

1037
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:48,000
Speaker 3: one of those, if I had known a bit more

1038
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:51,760
Speaker 3: how what my feelings were and how to deal with them,

1039
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:55,320
Speaker 3: that that wouldn't have happened. And the second one was

1040
00:57:55,440 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 3: a financial situation where if I had chosen their You know,

1041
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:05,280
Speaker 3: I was a therapist at the time, but when you

1042
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:07,680
Speaker 3: are so in your mind like that, it's incredibly hard

1043
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:12,080
Speaker 3: to see out of it, and if I had instead

1044
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 3: gone to see my therapist, it probably wouldn't have gotten

1045
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:17,000
Speaker 3: to that point.

1046
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:20,400
Speaker 1: That's so important that you just said that, because it

1047
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:25,800
Speaker 1: shows how distorted thinking can get. As someone who has studied,

1048
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:28,400
Speaker 1: who is actively a therapist, actively speaking to people, who

1049
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:31,360
Speaker 1: says all day long, this is what you need to do,

1050
00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 1: your brain was reframing I no, no, no, but that's not

1051
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:38,080
Speaker 1: for me. Yeah, I'm not going to do that. You

1052
00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 1: aren't able to see the exact pathway that you know

1053
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:44,920
Speaker 1: is clearly clearly there. Yes, If that doesn't tell you

1054
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:47,200
Speaker 1: that you can't use a sick brain to think your

1055
00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 1: way out of having a sick brain, I don't know

1056
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 1: what does. Yeah, exactly, because that's precisely it. It's so Yeah,

1057
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:57,600
Speaker 1: brains are so weird, amazing, But man, I'm glad we're

1058
00:58:57,600 --> 00:58:59,800
Speaker 1: able to at least look at them.

1059
00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:02,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, they like to play tricks, that's for sure.

1060
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:05,200
Speaker 1: That we have the awareness at least, and training that

1061
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:12,280
Speaker 1: awareness is really really important, which I'm bloody grateful for.

1062
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:17,080
Speaker 1: When you're writing stuff down, how can that help you

1063
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:21,360
Speaker 1: kind of understand maybe maybe this is a bit nuts,

1064
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:26,040
Speaker 1: maybe this isn't actually rational. Why writing it rather than

1065
00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 1: just sitting in your brain trying to talk your way

1066
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:27,880
Speaker 1: out of it.

1067
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:30,520
Speaker 3: I think if you're doing it via prompts like the

1068
00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:34,520
Speaker 3: facts and feelings, sort of socratic questioning, then that helps

1069
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:37,640
Speaker 3: us to see sort of essentially what is real and

1070
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:41,080
Speaker 3: what might just be a narrative in our mind. And

1071
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:42,720
Speaker 3: that is when you start to say, oh, okay, I

1072
00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:45,360
Speaker 3: think that's a bit of a disordered way of thinking.

1073
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:48,000
Speaker 3: I should probably look at why I'm thinking in that way.

1074
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 3: Just writing it out like journaling probably not going to

1075
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 3: make that difference. But if there's a prompt or a

1076
00:59:57,320 --> 00:59:59,640
Speaker 3: bit of a direction that is given, that's where the

1077
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:02,720
Speaker 3: therape the exercises really come in play, then that's a

1078
01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:04,920
Speaker 3: bit better because it's essentially helping you to pull out

1079
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:08,360
Speaker 3: the important information and as it does that, you're reframing

1080
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:09,320
Speaker 3: what those.

1081
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:12,240
Speaker 1: Thoughts are be able to separate because we can get

1082
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:15,560
Speaker 1: on a cascade when once the neurotransmitters start firing, particularly

1083
01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:18,560
Speaker 1: the anxiety ones, they go so fast, faster than anything

1084
01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:21,600
Speaker 1: you could the blink of an eye. You are now

1085
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:26,280
Speaker 1: in this completely different state of being that cannot see

1086
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:31,000
Speaker 1: the possibility or blue sky, or hear the tweet of

1087
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:33,960
Speaker 1: a bird or the giggle of a toddler. It doesn't exist, yes,

1088
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:37,600
Speaker 1: and you won't even realize you there. That's the trickiest part,

1089
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:40,800
Speaker 1: I think. And not knowing that can happen, I think

1090
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:45,000
Speaker 1: is a you mentioned mental health literacy. Not knowing that

1091
01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:48,480
Speaker 1: can happen, I think was one of the is one

1092
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:50,120
Speaker 1: of I think probably one of the more important things

1093
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:51,600
Speaker 1: that all the kind of work that you're doing and

1094
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:55,520
Speaker 1: I'm trying to do is about is just notice Like, Yes,

1095
01:00:56,080 --> 01:00:58,120
Speaker 1: the reason I wanted to do any of this right

1096
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:04,760
Speaker 1: was when I had those first thoughts of suicidality. And

1097
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:11,840
Speaker 1: I just did not realize how those thoughts showed up

1098
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:15,760
Speaker 1: in no way that I ever ever expected. It was

1099
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:20,560
Speaker 1: I'm a bit cold, I'm gonna put my jumper one.

1100
01:01:21,040 --> 01:01:21,800
Speaker 3: That was it.

1101
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:24,240
Speaker 1: It was about that it would be really nice when

1102
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:25,000
Speaker 1: I get that jumper on.

1103
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:25,439
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1104
01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:29,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. I did not realize that how seductive these thoughts

1105
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:32,240
Speaker 1: could have been. And when that happened, I was like,

1106
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:35,680
Speaker 1: holy fuck. I got to warn people, not in the psychosis.

1107
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:39,560
Speaker 1: Warning that was different, like warned people that when it comes,

1108
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:42,800
Speaker 1: it doesn't come like a big scary freight train. It's like,

1109
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:44,080
Speaker 1: hey man, let me.

1110
01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:45,120
Speaker 3: Make it better for exactly.

1111
01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:47,760
Speaker 1: Let they sort you out. Yeah, I've got just the thing. Yeah,

1112
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:49,840
Speaker 1: I've got a hot pack on a cold mic. Come

1113
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:55,000
Speaker 1: on over here. It was that, and that we don't

1114
01:01:55,120 --> 01:01:58,440
Speaker 1: talk about that, that we don't talk about how seductive

1115
01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:02,720
Speaker 1: and convincing brains can be, how quickly our brains can

1116
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:06,760
Speaker 1: take us to a place where the completely irrational feels

1117
01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:10,920
Speaker 1: completely normal and anyone that says otherwise is dangerous.

1118
01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:11,400
Speaker 3: Yes.

1119
01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:15,960
Speaker 1: Is the rapidity of that is it's less than a week.

1120
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:18,800
Speaker 1: It could be a diet if you take the right drugs. Yeah,

1121
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:21,840
Speaker 1: wrong drugs, depending on what do you say. And none

1122
01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:25,080
Speaker 1: of people know that, Yeah, nonet of people know that. Yeah.

1123
01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:28,120
Speaker 3: I think that's so true. And I think even when

1124
01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:31,760
Speaker 3: that stuff does happen to me, I was a teenager

1125
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:35,880
Speaker 3: the first time when that stuff does happen, it took

1126
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:38,800
Speaker 3: me another like five years to be like, Oh that

1127
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:42,520
Speaker 3: wasn't That wasn't just like a blip. She was down

1128
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:46,000
Speaker 3: and now she's fine. That's something that you will consistently

1129
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:49,320
Speaker 3: live with and need to manage and take the medication

1130
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:52,640
Speaker 3: and do the work. Yeah, duck under the doorway, Yes,

1131
01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:54,600
Speaker 3: under the doors.

1132
01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:55,920
Speaker 1: But it means you get to go into one room

1133
01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:58,919
Speaker 1: with lovely people. I was like, I can't come in there,

1134
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:02,040
Speaker 1: say door Yeah, sorry too, to all bye.

1135
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:04,880
Speaker 3: It opens up your life when you know these things

1136
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:06,680
Speaker 3: and know that you're not alone. I think for me

1137
01:03:06,880 --> 01:03:11,080
Speaker 3: with the book, the health literacy is not just people

1138
01:03:11,160 --> 01:03:13,880
Speaker 3: experiencing it, but it's the friends and people who love

1139
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:17,320
Speaker 3: the people experiencing it. Yeah, and at home now with

1140
01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:19,680
Speaker 3: my partner. We've got this post it note that's on

1141
01:03:19,720 --> 01:03:22,560
Speaker 3: the fridge and it literally is when feeling sad and

1142
01:03:22,640 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 3: a list of things that are my almost my first

1143
01:03:25,240 --> 01:03:27,919
Speaker 3: aid kit. If I am down and I'm feeling those

1144
01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:31,520
Speaker 3: feelings again, it is like, immediately, put me in a car,

1145
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:33,720
Speaker 3: get me out of the house, go into the sun,

1146
01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:39,400
Speaker 3: make something clean, something like. It's very much, yeah, my

1147
01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:42,280
Speaker 3: first aid kit for and it helps you to pull.

1148
01:03:42,080 --> 01:03:44,440
Speaker 1: You out of that thinking I haven't noted my wallet.

1149
01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:50,360
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming by. I'm really grateful

1150
01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:52,440
Speaker 1: that you you know, you made the time to do this.

1151
01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:54,040
Speaker 1: You know, I definitely loved it.

1152
01:03:54,080 --> 01:03:55,560
Speaker 3: Thanks you get the book.

1153
01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:56,440
Speaker 1: It's a good book.

1154
01:03:56,800 --> 01:03:57,320
Speaker 4: I liked.

1155
01:03:57,880 --> 01:03:59,600
Speaker 1: You have to get your own stationary though. I've got

1156
01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:00,480
Speaker 1: sense stuff.

1157
01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:02,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, post it notes and pens, high lightders.

1158
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:07,600
Speaker 1: I must mate. They're all over my house because Wolfe

1159
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:09,520
Speaker 1: found the stack and now they're just everywhere.

1160
01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:10,440
Speaker 3: He's doing the work.

1161
01:04:11,240 --> 01:04:14,160
Speaker 1: If the work involves Dad, you can't touch that over

1162
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:20,560
Speaker 1: there because that'll explode, all right, buddy, No, that's the work. Cute.

1163
01:04:21,640 --> 01:04:24,160
Speaker 1: That was Tammy Miller. The book is called Paperback Therapy.

1164
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:25,760
Speaker 1: I'll put the link in the show notes. To check

1165
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:29,040
Speaker 1: it out. There's some really smart stuff in there, stuff

1166
01:04:29,040 --> 01:04:32,640
Speaker 1: that I've learned, stuff I've never seen before, but is

1167
01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:34,400
Speaker 1: parallels to some of the other things I've learned. And

1168
01:04:34,440 --> 01:04:37,080
Speaker 1: I really like the way she approaches it because you've

1169
01:04:37,120 --> 01:04:38,840
Speaker 1: got to be able to scale. You've got to be

1170
01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:42,800
Speaker 1: able to scale mental health interventions. You just simply have to.

1171
01:04:43,080 --> 01:04:45,320
Speaker 1: And I'm thrilled for the work that she's doing. It's

1172
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:47,520
Speaker 1: really really cool. I do talk a lot about using

1173
01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:51,840
Speaker 1: my pen and paper to help my head. So in

1174
01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:53,760
Speaker 1: the newsletter this week, what I'll do is I'll send

1175
01:04:53,800 --> 01:04:55,920
Speaker 1: out of a couple other episodes where recover several ideas

1176
01:04:55,960 --> 01:04:58,160
Speaker 1: and talk about separate techniques that aren't in her book.

1177
01:04:58,240 --> 01:05:01,000
Speaker 1: By the way, thanks for listening back here on Friday.

1178
01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:03,040
Speaker 1: You'd be a good friend of the podcast if you

1179
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:05,640
Speaker 1: told a friend about the podcast. So please tell a

1180
01:05:05,640 --> 01:05:07,880
Speaker 1: friend about the podcast. If this was useful to you,

1181
01:05:07,880 --> 01:05:10,880
Speaker 1: would be very grateful. Check out Mondays and Fridays through

1182
01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:13,640
Speaker 1: they're a bit different. It's just me then. Yeah, I'm

1183
01:05:13,640 --> 01:05:16,640
Speaker 1: glad you came here. The credits because I didn't make

1184
01:05:16,680 --> 01:05:18,520
Speaker 1: this by myself. So we're going to read the credits. Well,

1185
01:05:18,560 --> 01:05:20,440
Speaker 1: I'm not going to read the credits. A strange AI

1186
01:05:20,560 --> 01:05:23,600
Speaker 1: with an odd Katas is going to tell you who

1187
01:05:23,600 --> 01:05:25,680
Speaker 1: helped me make this show today. Thanks for listening.

1188
01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:30,240
Speaker 4: This episode was brought to you by Andy Maer on

1189
01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:33,920
Speaker 4: audio post production, Beck said on video post production to

1190
01:05:34,160 --> 01:05:38,400
Speaker 4: Hyder on music. Our producer is Bree Steele. Osher's executive

1191
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:42,080
Speaker 4: function assistant is Monica Chapman. Sign up to the regular

1192
01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:49,120
Speaker 4: newsletter and get every episode ever at oshiginsburg dot com