1 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: Welcome to another edition of the podcast. My guest today 2 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:13,039 Speaker 1: is Ken Mogi, a Japanese neuroscientist, senior researcher at Sony 3 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 1: Computer Science Laboratories and a visiting professor at the Tokyo 4 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: Institute of Technology. Ken has written over one hundred books, yes, 5 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: one hundred in Japanese on topics as diverse as brain science, philosophy, history, art, 6 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 1: education and linguistics. Ken is known in Japan as a 7 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: rock star neuroscientist, and it's pretty easy to see why, 8 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: as he's a super cool, super smart, engaging guy. He's 9 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,599 Speaker 1: also recently released his first book in English, which is 10 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: called ikey Guy, and the word ikey guy roughly translates 11 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 1: as a reason to live, and today we discuss how 12 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: to find your ikey gay. Ken Mogi, Welcome to the 13 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: Mind Body Brilliant Project Podcast. 14 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 2: It's such an owner to talk to you. 15 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: The honor Ken is all mine, So Asoul said kichwa, 16 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: yeah yea to you. And so, so you are a 17 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: neuroscientist just like you are, yeah, just like me. But 18 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: you are a writer just like me. But while I've 19 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: written articles and I'm writing one book, you've written around 20 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: a hundred books. Is that correct? 21 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, in Japanese. In Japanese, Yeah, in Japan, I'm kind 22 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 2: of a well for the rec or bitter expressions rockstar. 23 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: Rock star author. Yeah, scientists, you. 24 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 2: Love that to be to be modest. But uh, in 25 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 2: the English speaking world, my first book was The Little Book. 26 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: Of a Little Bit of a Guy, which I have 27 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: right here. 28 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 2: Oh that's great, thank you. So that was my first 29 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 2: English book, and the second one is coming out of 30 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 2: this April. It's called The Way of Nagomi. Nagomi is 31 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 2: the Japanese concept for barns, and you know, diversity and 32 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 2: how to harmonize different elements in your life and how 33 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 2: to robust. 34 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 3: And so so. 35 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: Oh well, we will definitely have a little bit of 36 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: a conversation about nagomi because I think it's very important, 37 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: especially now with the global pandemic making Bernard and I know, 38 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: I know that you know about karashi in Japan. I 39 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:50,959 Speaker 1: think it's now Japan's latest export karashi because we're all 40 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 1: getting getting burnt art. Is that I pronounce it right? 41 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 1: That death by overwork? 42 00:02:56,280 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well, but you know this is something really interesting. 43 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 2: I know you're a hard worker. I know you take 44 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 2: a walk with your dog and your kid and you know, 45 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 2: and you really busy giving public rictures and so on. 46 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 2: But I think if you have the right mindset, of 47 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 2: course you obviously you can enforce this to other people, 48 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 2: but you can work really hard and yet enjoy every minute. 49 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 2: Don't you agree with that? 50 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 1: I totally agree when when you are passionate about what 51 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: you do, and I think and that ichy guy. And 52 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 1: actually it's a nice introduction to ikey guy because I 53 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: don't know if you know this, but there is a 54 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: guy who he creates a Western guy, and he created 55 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: this diagram of viky guy that that he modified it right, 56 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: and it's all over the internet. So if our listeners 57 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: are too and type ikey guy into Google, this diagram 58 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: will come up. And it's and it's all about it's 59 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: all about work and that work being a purpose and 60 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: and work being akey guy. But that's not really what 61 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: achy guy is about really in Japan? 62 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 3: Is it? 63 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: It's it's one part of it. But so let's start 64 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 1: from the top war What is the word ikey guy 65 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: mean in Japanese? 66 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 2: Right the world Ichi means to live and the guy 67 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 2: means the reason. So literally, it's the reason for your life. 68 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 2: The reason why you keep going. And you know, the diagram, 69 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:50,359 Speaker 2: which has become really famous is an Western interpretation, yes, 70 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 2: the concept and which is really great, which I think 71 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 2: is really helpful, but originally in the philosophy of the Japanese. 72 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 2: I it's something much wider than your work. I mean, 73 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:08,239 Speaker 2: it's something that can, you know, for example, make you 74 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 2: get out of the bed every morning. In my case, 75 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 2: I take a little piece of chocolate with my coffee, 76 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 2: and that can be my itchy guy. In your case, 77 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 2: I understand, you take a walk with your dog and. 78 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, run, Yeah, I go for a run with my 79 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: dogs and oh yeah, and that and and that's a 80 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: little morning ritual I have. And also I like to 81 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: have a cup of tea on my balcony. And sometimes 82 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: I hear these these these birds that are native to 83 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 1: Australia called cuokoa. 84 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 3: You ever heard of cookaura? 85 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 1: Oh, they are these fantastic birds and it's like they're 86 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 1: laughing and they all go together, and it brings me 87 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:58,239 Speaker 1: such joy to listen to cukerba and and reading your book, 88 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: I realized, actually that's one of my ikey guys. So 89 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: you don't just have to have one nickey guy. 90 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 3: Is that correct. 91 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 2: Spectrum of ike guy and you know probably you know, 92 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 2: without trying to be too deep from the beginning, I 93 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 2: should also mention that in Japan, traditionally it was considered 94 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 2: that there are eight million gods, I mean, you know, 95 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 2: just not one god, eight million gods. Eight million actually 96 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:37,359 Speaker 2: is equivalent to infinity. So there was this concept that 97 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:42,040 Speaker 2: in the there are so many different important elements, not 98 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 2: just one commandment or just one deity. So I think 99 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 2: this traditional approach to life in Japan has a lot 100 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 2: to do with this concept of a really broad spectrum 101 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 2: of ichy guy. Whereas in the West, yeah, people tend 102 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 2: to think in terms of vocations and missions. 103 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 3: Yes, purpose life, yeah. 104 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, and purpose and so the famous ikey guy diagram, 105 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 2: I think is a really great Western interpretation of the concept. 106 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 2: For us in Japan, we take a more liberal, diverse 107 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 2: approach to life. 108 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: And you know, yes, and and look, but part of 109 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: this is to try and get the proper message charge 110 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: right and actually that guy to be for to be 111 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: fair to him, he said, oh, I did this, and 112 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: now this thing has exploded. But I was only I 113 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: didn't mean it to be all of ikey guys like this. 114 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: I think he was just talking about work ikey guy, right. 115 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: So but most people when they think about Ikey Guy, 116 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: they think about this diagram. Right, So so let's let's 117 00:07:58,400 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: dig into Ikey guy a little bit. 118 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 3: So you talk in your book and. 119 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: That there are five pillars of aikiy guy, right, and 120 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: and we'll I think it would be really useful to 121 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: go to those pillars one by one, right, and and 122 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: I can I can start you off. So the first 123 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: pillar that you talk about is starting small. And so 124 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: what you would you mean by that? 125 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 2: You know, Paul, Uh, you're writing a book now, right, 126 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 2: and you know it's really hectic, uh your job. I mean, 127 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 2: it's audious to write a book. And but but every 128 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 2: book starts with one sentence, right, It's you write one 129 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 2: sentence and gradually it becomes an entire argument or theme 130 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 2: that you right to present. So you know, our life 131 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 2: is like a book. I mean, you know, you can 132 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 2: dream of really big things, but after all, uh, it 133 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 2: should be it's just with the region step you take. So, 134 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:08,199 Speaker 2: you know, in today's world, because of we are living 135 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 2: in a globalized economy and they're such a hard competition 136 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 2: and people are always aware of what's on the market 137 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 2: and so on. So I see many people in Japan 138 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 2: too who are kind of crash because they feel that 139 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 2: they are not really up to the job and they 140 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 2: cannot really do well in the market and so on. 141 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 2: So it's really important to realize that everything, uh starts small, 142 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 2: every you know, big project, if your company, and so 143 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,559 Speaker 2: you have a company, right, I mean, did you you 144 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 2: should have you started small? Right? 145 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: I mean absolutely absolutely, yeah. And I think I don't 146 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: know if it's a is it a Japanese proverb that 147 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: the journey of a thousand miles starts with the smallest step. 148 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: I'm not sure where that proverb is from, but and 149 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: it's kind of what. 150 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:12,959 Speaker 2: You Yeah, in Japanese it's called sand which literally means 151 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 2: journey of a thousand wires starts from this small one step. 152 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 2: And so that's a really Japanese Buddhist way of taking 153 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 2: a really moon shot to a long shot project. And 154 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 2: you know, but if you think about it, it's in 155 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 2: the West too, because Steve Jobson, Steve wasn't it They 156 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 2: started Appu in the. 157 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 3: Garage and you know, yes, that's right. 158 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 2: At that time, nobody would have suspected that it would 159 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 2: produce iPhones and ipatnuer and so on and so yeah. 160 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 1: And so how does that starting small or how does 161 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: that relate it directly to echy guy? Is that what 162 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: you mean when you talked about your your your little 163 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: bit of chocolate with your cup of your cup of coffee. 164 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for that's the million there's question actually, uh, 165 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 2: you know, so in terms of Ichy Guy, the first 166 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 2: step that you take is as variable as the whole thing. 167 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 2: So in Japanese philosophy, you know, even when you train 168 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 2: as a Buddhist monk, uh, even sweeping the gardens is 169 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 2: considered to be a really important aspect of the training. 170 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 2: So everything that seems trivial it's taken really seriously. So 171 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 2: in the philosophy of Ikey Guy, the really tiny part 172 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 2: of the whole picture, it's actually equivalent to the you know, 173 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 2: the whole thing. 174 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. 175 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 2: Rather like it's rather like the concept of fractures in physics, 176 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 2: I mean, you know frac, Yeah, I mean so in fact, 177 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 2: a really small part of the universe is considered to 178 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 2: be equivalent in essence to the whole universe. Right, So 179 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 2: I think there's this really interesting connection between Guy and 180 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 2: the fractal geometry. 181 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 1: Right, Okay, Yeah, so I'm a little bit familiar with fractals. 182 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: Some of some of our our listeners wouldn't be familiar 183 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 1: with fractals, but I would encourage them just to google 184 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:32,199 Speaker 1: fractals and see how fractals are really important in nature, right, 185 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: and you see fractals everything plants and trees, and yeah, wow, 186 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:42,839 Speaker 1: we were gonna have a big conversation about fractals, I think. So. 187 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 1: So this idea of starting small is the idea is 188 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: not not to weigh for this big, massive purpose in 189 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: life and all of this, but just to start doing 190 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: something that you find enjoyable, that gives you a reason 191 00:12:57,840 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: to get up. 192 00:12:58,760 --> 00:12:59,439 Speaker 3: Is that correct? 193 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. And in Japanese tradition, the first day 194 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 2: of a period is always considered to be the most important. 195 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 2: For example, we visit the Shinto shrines on the first 196 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 2: New Year's Day and we make resolutions new Year's resolutions. Yeah, 197 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 2: and when we you know, when the Buddhist monks train 198 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 2: in the temples, the first day is always considered to 199 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 2: be the most important of the whole period. So there's 200 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 2: this emphasis on the first small step that you take, 201 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 2: and it's I think it's deeply embedded in the Japanese culture. 202 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's something that should be deeply embedded in 203 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: behavior change, particularly when it comes to health. Right, because 204 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: a lot of you know, if there and I often said, 205 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: a lot of people they're they're overweir it and and 206 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: they think about where I want to be. But we 207 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 1: know from from from the science of it that when 208 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: you when you think about where I am and where 209 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: I want to be, and if that distance seems really large, 210 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 1: it can stop you from even starting. 211 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 3: Right. 212 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 1: So this idea actually of just starting. 213 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, that is you know, uh, expertise, right. I mean, 214 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 2: so when you teach people how to exercise, you know, 215 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 2: they would feel sometimes that well, it's such a wrong 216 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 2: journey and I can look at but as you say, 217 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 2: if you take the first step, then you know you 218 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 2: can graduate work on it. And it's it's the first 219 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 2: step that it's psychologically the most important because the barrier 220 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 2: between you know, you and you. 221 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: Know and getting and getting getting started. Look, I often 222 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: say to people, particularly if they are really struggling, I 223 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: say to them, let's take action. I said, Okay, all 224 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: I want you to do for the first month is 225 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: you come home from work, you put your exercise gear on. 226 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: I don't want you to exercise, Just put your exercise 227 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: gear on. 228 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 3: That's it. That's all you have to do. 229 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: And you know what, I often get people, people who 230 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: have coaches, that come back to me and go, you 231 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: know what, after day number five, I thought, why am 232 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 1: I doing? I just need to go and do some 233 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: exercise now because I've got my exercise gear on. But 234 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: all I ask them to do is put your exercise 235 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: gear on, and then after a while, maybe they take 236 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: the next step. Maybe not, but often they will take 237 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 1: the next step. So let's talk about the next step. 238 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: In echy guy and you you talk about that the 239 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: step number two is releasing yourself. So what do you 240 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: mean by the what do you mean by releasing yourself? 241 00:15:55,400 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 2: Well, this is a really interesting concept in Japan, uh, 242 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 2: you know, uh, I think the Japanese people are generally 243 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 2: considered to be well reserved and well disciplined, but when 244 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 2: we are in really close relationships, we let her heart out, 245 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 2: you know. With it's called home nee nd tatmai and 246 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 2: tatima is a social appearances something that you would be 247 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 2: supposed to say in association, whereas home ne this is 248 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 2: a true heart and you are allowed to reveal your 249 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 2: true self to your close friends and family members. And 250 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 2: so there's in Japan there's has been always this contrast 251 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 2: between uh, the social appearances and true heart and so 252 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 2: in you know, I don't know how it is in 253 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 2: Australia right now, but because of COVID, people have been 254 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:03,479 Speaker 2: kind of having a really difficult time getting really crows 255 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 2: how to hut discover a conversation with other people. Right. 256 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 2: But you know, unless you really release yourself, you cannot 257 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 2: really have your ekey guy. Because ike guy represents your 258 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 2: true self. It's not something that you would like to 259 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 2: present to the society or it's not something that you 260 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 2: need to do to keep social appearances. So I wonder 261 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,679 Speaker 2: how it is in Australia right now. I mean, is that. 262 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 1: There is definitely I don't think it's as strong as 263 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: it is in Japan. But but certainly the the the 264 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,959 Speaker 1: idea of my you know, and this all comes to ego, 265 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 1: as you know that the ego there, the self that 266 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 1: I present to others may not be my my personal 267 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: self or my private sense. And and and for sure 268 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: that that you know, you reveal more of your deep 269 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: inner thinkings and workings and desires and fears to people 270 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: who you're you're close with, right, it's about that that 271 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: vulnerability I think plays into it. But you also talk 272 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: about a certain Hungarian psychologist and that we are both 273 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,640 Speaker 1: fans of me Hih Chase met me high and flowst 274 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: it and so talk to me about the the overlap 275 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 1: between Flowsted and Dickey Guy. 276 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, the course of the flow is really important and 277 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:42,919 Speaker 2: it's about Well, you're a neuroscientist too, so you should know. 278 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 2: But when you're in a frow, you really release yourself 279 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:54,439 Speaker 2: and it's how the brain disinhibits the potential within you. 280 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 2: So when it's a really interesting well you are a 281 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,719 Speaker 2: three too, so you should know. But when athletes compete 282 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 2: in the Olympics and they win the gold medal, uh, 283 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:11,679 Speaker 2: their run seems to be almost effortress because they don't 284 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:18,160 Speaker 2: push themselves. They actually release themselves and that would induce 285 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 2: the maximum performance from their body. And so that's really 286 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 2: related to this concept of releasing yourself. In by releasing yourself, 287 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 2: you would be the best performance that you can be 288 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 2: without any sense of stress or effort. And I regard 289 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 2: this as a probably the most single most important wisdom 290 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 2: in life. I mean, you know, you can work hard, 291 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 2: but you don't have to feel any stress for that, 292 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 2: you know. 293 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: M yeah, absolutely, and and and it's interesting you talk 294 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: about that, that that releasing yourself. And so I have 295 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 1: done a little bit of karate in the last number 296 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:09,640 Speaker 1: of years and competed and also did some mindset coaching 297 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: for the younger athletes who were trying to go to 298 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 1: the World Games, right, And when I was talking to them, 299 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 1: what came up was a particular theme that they get 300 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 1: more like the times when things didn't go well, they 301 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:32,120 Speaker 1: seem to be focused on the outcome, and the times 302 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: that they fought beautifully and had their best performances, they 303 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:41,400 Speaker 1: weren't thinking about the outcome. They weren't thinking about the result, 304 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: they were just engaged fully in the combat, right. And 305 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: I think that's that's one of the key essences of flow. 306 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 1: And I think from my understanding, what you're talking about 307 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: releasing yourself, it's really you're not self aware when you're 308 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: in flow state because you're you're fully engaged in the process. 309 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:04,439 Speaker 1: And you don't have to be an athlete to be 310 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: inflows to it, right, And somebody who's doing sudoku can 311 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: be Infloa state, somebody who's doing a crossword, somebody who's 312 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 1: doing knitting, like any sort of a hobby. So so 313 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: my question is do you hide. Closely related are the 314 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: concepts of flow and the concept of ikey Guy, Like 315 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:29,119 Speaker 1: can you have ikey guy on something without being in flow? 316 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: And can it just be a little bit of moment 317 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: of joy or does it have to be a deeper state? 318 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 2: I think in like in character, I think there are 319 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 2: black bearls and you know all these classes of performances. 320 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 3: Are you so you can ah nice? Yeah? 321 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 2: And if you uh, you have a black belt in guy, 322 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:58,479 Speaker 2: you would be always in the frog state. Yeah, no 323 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 2: matter what you do. If you go to a sushi 324 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 2: restaurant in Tokyo, I hope you can do that in 325 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 2: one of these is because they they are always in 326 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 2: the frosted. The sushi chefs, they obviously they are working 327 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 2: days are really long and arduous because preparation of fish 328 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 2: in the sushi restaurant involves many steps and you know, 329 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 2: meticulously done. But whenever you go to a really fine 330 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 2: sushi restaurant, you can tell that the sushi chefs they 331 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 2: really enjoy doing that. I mean, it's not something that 332 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 2: needs to be you know, enjoyed. They really enjoy every 333 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 2: second of it. And so they there you can tell 334 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 2: that preparing sushi is their iki guy, and at the 335 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 2: same time it's their joy because they are in the 336 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 2: frosted so they are wearing the black belts. 337 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: I like your I like your analogy. And you know 338 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 1: what my first experience of that ken was, I haven't 339 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 1: I haven't been to Japan. It's we're hoping to go 340 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: next year. But I was in Singapore. I was in 341 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: Singapore in a little Japanese restaurant I used to go 342 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:16,719 Speaker 1: to every time, and I loved to go in and 343 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: sit at the bar and watch the chef make the 344 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: food and just the focused concentration and the amount of 345 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 1: artistry that went into making food. I could tell that 346 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 1: even without speaking to him, he didn't think that he 347 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 1: was just preparing food. He was He seemed to me 348 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,679 Speaker 1: like he was making a work of art because he 349 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: was so engaged in the process and such detail went 350 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: into it. It was just it was fascinating to me. 351 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 2: And that's put on So yeah, and you know, since 352 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 2: you were in the army, maybe you know something about 353 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 2: being in the you know fight, Uh, you know combat zone. 354 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 2: And you know, if you take the example of yeah 355 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 2: you you were, and if you take the example of 356 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 2: the samurai warriors. 357 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: Uh. 358 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:22,880 Speaker 2: There's this very famous book by uh Miaotoo. It's called 359 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 2: The Ring of the Book of Five Rings. I think 360 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 2: it's translated in English, and uh he told tales that 361 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 2: in order to be really the best samurai warrior, you 362 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,120 Speaker 2: need to be in the frost state. So you don't, 363 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 2: you know, you should you shouldn't really think that, oh, 364 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 2: this is life and death and if you don't do it, well, 365 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 2: you would be killed. And so uh he is just 366 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 2: in this continuous throw state of you know, uh using 367 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 2: the samurai sword and all these things. So so I 368 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 2: you know, so it can that the thrust, it can 369 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 2: be appright to the case of a sushi chef. But 370 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 2: at the same time two, uh, a samurai warrior in combat. 371 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 2: Any experience from you. 372 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 1: You know, now, my biggest experience actually of that because 373 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: because fortunately when when I was in the military, I 374 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:28,919 Speaker 1: didn't end up in war. But my biggest experience personal 375 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,880 Speaker 1: experience of that is when I was boxing and I 376 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,400 Speaker 1: had my first and my one and only professional boxing 377 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,719 Speaker 1: fact and when the bell rang I remember there was 378 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: there was a lot of people in the room and 379 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 1: there was a lot of noise and everything and blah 380 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,880 Speaker 1: blah blah or you know, sensory overload. And when the 381 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 1: bell rang for the for the first round, my whole 382 00:25:54,200 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: sensory experience went sh right were I came in into 383 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 1: a complete tunnel vision where all I could see was 384 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 1: my opponent and even though I was a word that 385 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 1: was noisy, I really didn't couldn't couldn't focus on on 386 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 1: the noise that everything. And it was my first experience 387 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:20,680 Speaker 1: of of what I expect is that true fireflight where 388 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 1: there's so much adrenaline and no adrenaline in the Brian 389 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 1: that that just everything was bomb that was floawst in, 390 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: I can tell that was that was black belt, That 391 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: was black belt floats in. 392 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm sure. So, you know, support, I 393 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 2: think it's it's really important that uh, releasing yourself can 394 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 2: be applied to when you have a really wonderful conversation 395 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 2: with your close friend and this is really relaxed and enjoyable, 396 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 2: but at the same time it can be applied to life. 397 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:59,360 Speaker 2: What deathitiation, you know, what fight to our fright station. 398 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 2: So I think it's a really robust biological phenomenon. Yeah, 399 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,199 Speaker 2: this important the frost in. 400 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and when the buddh is releasing yourself, is any 401 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: of this Is it related to awareness of self in 402 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: the moment? 403 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:25,119 Speaker 2: And oh yeah, yeah, that's really interesting. I mean so 404 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 2: sent to me high. She argued that in when you 405 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 2: are in the frosted, you forget yourself, I mean, you 406 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 2: are not aware of yourself. And interestingly, the whole Japanese 407 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 2: culture has been about how to be released from your ego, 408 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 2: I mean in the Buddhist trains, that's the single important issue. 409 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,920 Speaker 2: How you can be you know, even free from your 410 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 2: own desires and interest and and productically, when you are 411 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 2: released from your own self interest, you would be the 412 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 2: best performer. You know that in that way, you would 413 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 2: be serving yourself interest, you know in the end. So 414 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:12,880 Speaker 2: this is a real. 415 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: To not be self aware. It's very very interesting. Okay, 416 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 1: So the next component of aky guy that you talk 417 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:26,360 Speaker 1: about is harmony and sustainability, and so talk us through 418 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: that because it's pretty important in Japanese culture, isn't. 419 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:33,919 Speaker 2: It It is? Uh, you know, we have the longest 420 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 2: standing hereditary monarchy in the world, the Imperial House. I 421 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 2: think the current emperor is one twenty sixth Wow on 422 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 2: the throne. 423 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 1: Wow. 424 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 2: You know the reason why the Imperial family has been 425 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 2: running so long is they have been avoiding all these conflicts. 426 00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 2: I mean, so you know it's an at barns. I mean, 427 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 2: so in the world were all aware there are conflicts 428 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 2: and you know, botles and so on. Yes, so that 429 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 2: the secret of the Imperial family was. You know, in 430 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 2: the history of Japan, they having many samurai warriors who 431 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 2: were ready mighty and strong at one period, but the 432 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 2: imperial household never took sides with one particular samurai. I 433 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 2: mean they always kept really cali curated and sophisticated distance 434 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 2: to all different samurai warriors, and that was their you 435 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 2: know wisdom. 436 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 1: Mhm. 437 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 2: We are living in a world where people ah in 438 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 2: in echo chambers and they listened to what they're like, 439 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 2: and there is bipartisan politics and I'm sure you have 440 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 2: your share in Australia too. Uh So in Japan, this 441 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 2: is really wonderful wisdom that if you want to make 442 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 2: it work life sustainable, you should really take a well 443 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 2: callicated balance between different elements, and you should really you 444 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 2: shouldn't really make friends and face and aside with the friends. 445 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 2: I mean, do you have any any real life experience 446 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 2: like that in your life? 447 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: I'm trying to think about that in terms of application 448 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: to me. And look, I can certainly tell you that 449 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 1: that I got in trouble. Well. Look, actually because I'm 450 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: from Northern Ireland, right, so that that's very interesting. 451 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, that's right. 452 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So in Northern Ireland, as you may well know, 453 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 1: and we have this three hundred year old feud that 454 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: that we affectionately called the Troubles, right, and then in 455 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 1: the in the nineteen particularly the nineteen fifties, sixties, nineteen 456 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: seventies and a little bit into the eighties, it was 457 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 1: quite serious. There was a lot of bombings, a lot 458 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: of killings between the Catholics and the Protestants, right, And 459 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: there's actually not much difference from a religious perspective, right, 460 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 1: it's more tribal. 461 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 3: Right. 462 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 1: But very interestingly, my parents got married one was a 463 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 1: Catholic and one was a Protestant in the nineteen sixties 464 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 1: and that was quite taboo. That was quite taboo. It 465 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 1: didn't happen very often. And actually my mother's father didn't 466 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: speak to her for years because she married a Catholic, right, 467 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: So we were brought up as Catholics, but we always 468 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 1: lived in Protestant neighborhoods. So all throughout my childhood I 469 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: had this thing right. But in Northern Ireland, the first 470 00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: school that was integrated school with Catholics and Protestant nineteen 471 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 1: eighty five, right, So when I was growing up, you 472 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 1: either went to a Catholic school or you went to 473 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: a Protestant school, and in most cases it was a 474 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 1: Catholic neighborhood or a Protestant neighborhood. But I got brought 475 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 1: up in this balance right where I went to school, 476 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: and sometimes that was challenging because I'm wearing a Catholic 477 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: uniform walking through Protestant areas and so part of one 478 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: of your chapters that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, 479 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: that was interesting, but it actually really helped me because 480 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: as I grew up later, and you know, as people 481 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: become a little bit more sensible, but even at university 482 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: where people are educated, when you push them, there's still 483 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: they revert to that tribal thing. And I think largely 484 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: because of our upbringing, I really didn't cur whether people 485 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 1: were Catholics or Protestant. I mean, I'm an Irish Catholic 486 00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 1: who joined the British Armed Forces, or in northern Irish 487 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: cat we joined the British en Forces. That's quite quite rare. 488 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: So I think that would be my closest experience of 489 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 1: that where you don't pick a side and you you 490 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 1: navigate the dance between the two sides. 491 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 2: No, that's wonderful and thank you. I'm really moved to 492 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 2: hear your personal history, and you might you must have 493 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 2: had a really you know, difficult time from time time. 494 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 2: I mean, so I can't imagine how you try to 495 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 2: establish a self identity in the stitution. But that's the classic, 496 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 2: really wonderful example of how to live a life of 497 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 2: each guy based on this principle of harmony, answerstainability. That's 498 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 2: really great, you know. So yeah, I mean, so today's world, 499 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 2: I mean, people take size too often to absolutely and 500 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 2: from seeing from the outside, well, the Japanese are sometimes 501 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 2: considered to be really ambiguous and enigmatic and not really 502 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 2: clear on things. But deep down I think that the 503 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 2: Japanese people are exercising in this philosophy of ikiye, which 504 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 2: is as you mentioned, there is not such a great 505 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 2: difference when you think about it between the Protestants and 506 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 2: Catholics in Northern Ireland, but the people take make such 507 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 2: a fuss about it, and there's something equivalent to that 508 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 2: in every corner of the world today, absolutely Russians, Ukrainians 509 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 2: and all these things. So so you wander to be sustainable, 510 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 2: I think we really need to know how to strike 511 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 2: a balance between seemingly incompatible elements. 512 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 1: And I think poor you. 513 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 2: Are you your life is a living example of this principle. 514 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: Now, thank you, thank you, ken, I appreciate that. So 515 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 1: they the next one you talk about, I really like 516 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:10,399 Speaker 1: this one, and the joy of little things, So talk 517 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 1: us through that. I think your chocolate and tea might 518 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 1: come in here. 519 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you know, well, so you should know 520 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:24,799 Speaker 2: that the most prestigious part of the Japanese culture is 521 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 2: the tea ceremony. This is really surprising. I mean, the 522 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:32,359 Speaker 2: samurai warriors when they were fighting each other, really took 523 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 2: it seriously to have a tea ceremony. I mean, this 524 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,759 Speaker 2: is really comic, but this is true. I mean, so 525 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 2: that's especially made of teahouse and they would go there 526 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 2: friends and foes, and they would put the samurai sauce outside. 527 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 2: They are not allowed to bring their sauce and once 528 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 2: in the teahouse and once they are doing the tea ceremony, 529 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,240 Speaker 2: they took it really seriously. And this is a really 530 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:05,919 Speaker 2: comic but a strange fact of the history that when 531 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:12,320 Speaker 2: the Summari warriors may really want a really important battle, 532 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 2: sometimes they prefer to be given a prestigious tea bowl, 533 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:23,360 Speaker 2: you know, just a teaware, to be given a castrow 534 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 2: and ran. I mean the t bows tea wears were 535 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:34,799 Speaker 2: considered to be so prestigious and highly priced. After at 536 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 2: the end of the day, it's just a artware. I mean, 537 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 2: it's something that you can break so easily. But they 538 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:46,839 Speaker 2: took the joyable things so seriously, I mean the Summari warriors. 539 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 2: So I think there's something in Japanese culture that takes 540 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 2: that joyable two things are really seriously. As you observed 541 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:03,359 Speaker 2: in that sushi restaurant in Single Yes, yes, just at 542 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,880 Speaker 2: the end of the day, it's just sushi, right, it's 543 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 2: just a piece of food, but they take it so seriously. 544 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:14,240 Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, and and and so this this ichy 545 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 1: guy can be found in the little I think this 546 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,919 Speaker 1: is where the difference is between the true echy guy 547 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 1: and and the thing that a lot of Westerners, because 548 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 1: of that diagram think is a gy guy that I'm 549 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:31,360 Speaker 1: doing work that is my purpose, right and and but 550 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:33,440 Speaker 1: it's not, isn't it. You can have anicky guy and 551 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,360 Speaker 1: grow growing vegetables. You're talking in your book about about 552 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:41,800 Speaker 1: growing growing vegetables and eating your own vegetables or making 553 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 1: some pottery and those sorts of things, right. 554 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, And so there's this really funny story about you know, 555 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 2: I had some Americans visiting Japan before the COVID pandemic, 556 00:37:54,120 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 2: and I, you know, asked them to try the perfect route. 557 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:04,280 Speaker 2: I wrote about the perfect route. And you know, in Japan, 558 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,719 Speaker 2: a piece of meron can be sold for something like 559 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:10,440 Speaker 2: two hundred US stars. 560 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 3: It's really yes. 561 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 2: But but they the Americans came to Japan and they 562 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 2: tasted it and they went, right, if you come to Tokyo, 563 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 2: you should really go to the same bigie store and 564 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:35,760 Speaker 2: they are saying the meron it's so perfectly, meticulously prepared 565 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,319 Speaker 2: and the taste is so heavenry. But anyway, it's two 566 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 2: hundred dollars for you, and it's. 567 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 3: Wow, there you go. 568 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 1: That is the joy little It's really crazy. 569 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think you would have something like that 570 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 2: in Australia. 571 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:53,640 Speaker 3: No, I don't. I don't think in Australia. 572 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 1: But in Japan, I think they really take that whole 573 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:03,000 Speaker 1: idea beauty. And I believe that the pottery, the old 574 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:09,319 Speaker 1: pottery in Japan is appreciated because it has imperfections in 575 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 1: it and there are right, and they don't like the 576 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:18,000 Speaker 1: mass produced stuff that is all the same. Right, it's 577 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 1: the little joy in the imperfections. 578 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, because every one of us is imperfect, 579 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:28,880 Speaker 2: you know, yeah, nobody is perfect, right, yes, so we 580 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 2: accept that, and I think that's one of the most 581 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 2: beautiful aspects of Japanese culture. I'm not saying that Japanese 582 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:38,880 Speaker 2: is a perfect country in terms of gender equality. The 583 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 2: Japanese women unfortunately not so, you know, we're treated compared 584 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:48,960 Speaker 2: to other nations in the West. And what else. Media freedom, 585 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 2: We cannot say that the Japanese media are so free 586 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,440 Speaker 2: in terms of reporting on government programs and so on. 587 00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,399 Speaker 2: But having said that, I think the wonderful things about 588 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,399 Speaker 2: Japan too, and the joy of the two things, all 589 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 2: these things. I think that's probably one of the best 590 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 2: aspects of Japanese culture because it can relate to any person, 591 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,360 Speaker 2: no matter what social state as you might be, and 592 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 2: you don't have to be filthy rich or outrageously successful 593 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 2: to appreciate the joy of the two things. 594 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:28,319 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, that's a great level. 595 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, because if you go to the States, I always 596 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:38,719 Speaker 2: showed that people continuously ask the networth of people, I mean, 597 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:44,759 Speaker 2: how much that somebody have, and that's ridiculous. And you know, yeah, 598 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 2: how it is in Australia. Do you have the same culture. 599 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:54,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's quite interesting. When I was here backpacking twenty 600 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:59,319 Speaker 1: years ago, Australia culture and television and all of those 601 00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 1: things was heavily influenced by the British. And actually it 602 00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,239 Speaker 1: was thirty years thirty years ago when I was backpacking, 603 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,959 Speaker 1: and then I came to live here seventeen years ago, 604 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,960 Speaker 1: and I was quite surprised about how much they'd swung 605 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:16,360 Speaker 1: away from British culture towards American culture. 606 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:20,560 Speaker 3: But still still there is there is still. 607 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 1: A strong core of of of Assie in there. That's 608 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,719 Speaker 1: that's quite unique. Yeah, which is is quite nice, and 609 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,600 Speaker 1: there's some there's some very refreshing things about Ossie culture 610 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,680 Speaker 1: that you know, is very raw and very real and 611 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,759 Speaker 1: so so the next one, the last one that in 612 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:44,960 Speaker 1: your five Pillars is and I love this one. It's 613 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:49,080 Speaker 1: about being in the here and now, and so talk 614 00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:52,160 Speaker 1: to us through why that is? Well, it's it's it's 615 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,400 Speaker 1: a large element of Vicky guy, is it not. 616 00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. And you know, just like you, I'm 617 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:05,240 Speaker 2: a neuroscientist and my life long goal is to understand 618 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:10,640 Speaker 2: how consciousness arises from the brain. And we am James 619 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:15,799 Speaker 2: who was an American psychologist. How yeah, we am James. Yeah, 620 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 2: he talked about the stream of consciousness. Yes, and you know, 621 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:23,719 Speaker 2: the stream of consciousness is always about that he aren't now, 622 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:27,239 Speaker 2: You know, we are always in the specious moment, right, 623 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:33,720 Speaker 2: And so the Japanese culture without knowing modern neuroscience, of course, 624 00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:39,160 Speaker 2: you know, to really seriously the importance of that he 625 00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:43,400 Speaker 2: are now, you should really come to Japan at the 626 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:45,840 Speaker 2: time of the charity person cherry blossom. 627 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:46,719 Speaker 1: That's what we want to do. 628 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean people go crazy. I mean it's 629 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:57,480 Speaker 2: the ephemeral beauty of the bosom that really makes people happy. 630 00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:01,840 Speaker 2: And you know, so in the Japanese h the idea 631 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:05,439 Speaker 2: of permanence is quite different from the Western culture. When 632 00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:11,960 Speaker 2: we talk about the permanent beauty or eternal values. It's 633 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:16,000 Speaker 2: always considered to be in the here end now. Actually 634 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:22,840 Speaker 2: there's nothing else, I mean, everything is Yeah, So Ikey 635 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,880 Speaker 2: Guy is about how to you know, really focus on 636 00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:32,560 Speaker 2: the joys and uh, you know things at the here 637 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:37,800 Speaker 2: end now. And I think that's a really important aspect 638 00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:41,920 Speaker 2: of Ichi Guy in terms of temporal dimensions. 639 00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:46,520 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, you know, yeah, it's really interesting. There was 640 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,000 Speaker 1: a guy Matthew somebody or I can't remember his name, 641 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:50,920 Speaker 1: but he did. He did a large research study on 642 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,399 Speaker 1: happiness and where he gives people an app on their 643 00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:58,200 Speaker 1: phone and and and would buzz them and they would 644 00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:00,440 Speaker 1: read how happy they were in that moment moment and 645 00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:04,720 Speaker 1: what they were actually doing right, And you had thousands 646 00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,839 Speaker 1: and thousands of people in this study. And what it 647 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:13,440 Speaker 1: turns out that whether you were doing something negative like 648 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:17,120 Speaker 1: sitting in traffic or doing something that you enjoy wasn't 649 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,319 Speaker 1: really the biggest driver of happiness. It was whether you 650 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:24,439 Speaker 1: were in the moment. So you could actually be in 651 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:29,200 Speaker 1: the moment in a traffic jam and be happier than 652 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,799 Speaker 1: if you were off doing something else that you would 653 00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:36,040 Speaker 1: think would feel happy. But your mind is wandering elsewhere 654 00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:39,799 Speaker 1: and this whole idea of the being in the here 655 00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:43,400 Speaker 1: and now is really critical because, as you say, you know, 656 00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:46,880 Speaker 1: all we have is a series of moments of the 657 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,160 Speaker 1: here and now. And isn't it interesting when you look 658 00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:56,280 Speaker 1: at depression and anxiety, right, the two major mental health issues, 659 00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:02,600 Speaker 1: and depression is the leading cause globally of disability adjusted 660 00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:06,520 Speaker 1: life years, right, the loss of quality life. Depression is 661 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,640 Speaker 1: the biggest thing. But in both cases, if you think 662 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:13,720 Speaker 1: about depression, that is where you're lamenting on the past, 663 00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:18,799 Speaker 1: and anxiety is this concern about the future and what 664 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:22,160 Speaker 1: bad might happen. But in both cases we bring the 665 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,560 Speaker 1: past and the future into the here and now, and 666 00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:27,440 Speaker 1: that's when it causes us damage. 667 00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I understand that you're dripping up. 668 00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:36,480 Speaker 1: For for resilience and yeah, yes. 669 00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:40,040 Speaker 2: Yeah so is that Is there an aspect in your 670 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:45,000 Speaker 2: app about, you know, helping people focus on the here now, 671 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:46,720 Speaker 2: being in the moment? 672 00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:50,239 Speaker 1: Yes, well, there's there's certainly we have a large thing 673 00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:55,000 Speaker 1: about about gratitude and and and thinking about the little 674 00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:59,000 Speaker 1: things in that in that that you have in your life, 675 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:00,879 Speaker 1: so that that would be as close as we get 676 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:06,919 Speaker 1: to that present moment. But it's it really is I'm 677 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:11,280 Speaker 1: starting to just uncover how important that is about living 678 00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:15,520 Speaker 1: in the present moment. And actually, my wife, my wife 679 00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:23,080 Speaker 1: has studied Japanese psychology and Marita therapy. Marita really yeah. 680 00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so she is how fascinating. 681 00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:30,520 Speaker 1: Yes, and and and she talks about Maurita talks about 682 00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:35,080 Speaker 1: three things showman, Marita, accept things as they are, know 683 00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:39,120 Speaker 1: your purpose, and do what needs to be done in 684 00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:39,720 Speaker 1: that moment. 685 00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:41,000 Speaker 3: Right, And. 686 00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:44,880 Speaker 1: It's pretty brilliant, right, three little things. But if you 687 00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:47,600 Speaker 1: just accept things as they are, you know your purpose 688 00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:50,600 Speaker 1: and you do what needs to be done. So, yes, 689 00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:53,480 Speaker 1: I'm feeling a little bit depressed, but what needs to 690 00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:56,640 Speaker 1: be done right now? And and linking your actions to 691 00:46:56,719 --> 00:47:00,120 Speaker 1: your values and your purpose, I think is is what 692 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,840 Speaker 1: what can help get people out of strife. 693 00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:07,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I listened to your dialog with your 694 00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:12,960 Speaker 2: wife about nikan and oh yes, yeah, Nikon is about 695 00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:15,920 Speaker 2: being in the hair now. I mean, so there's this 696 00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:22,759 Speaker 2: really strong tradition in Japanese Buddhism. You know, it's not 697 00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:27,239 Speaker 2: just about Buddhism. I think it's a really uniquely Japanese 698 00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:32,440 Speaker 2: version of it, with the emphasis on how to be 699 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:37,240 Speaker 2: in harmony with yourself and no matter what your social status. 700 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:39,800 Speaker 2: Maybe this is important because of course you want to 701 00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:44,360 Speaker 2: be successful, and of course you want to make money, 702 00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:47,000 Speaker 2: and that's understandable because we are all living in that 703 00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:51,520 Speaker 2: modern world. But the Japanese unique approach is, no matter 704 00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:56,360 Speaker 2: how successful you might be, well how what a failure 705 00:47:56,400 --> 00:48:00,480 Speaker 2: you might be, you can always be happy in a 706 00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:07,120 Speaker 2: sense because once you know how to be in the 707 00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:11,279 Speaker 2: now and accept yourself, then it doesn't really matter. So 708 00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:15,880 Speaker 2: you know, this is the idea in Japanese philosophy. I 709 00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:18,600 Speaker 2: think you know, of course you right to be successful, 710 00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:23,600 Speaker 2: but even when you become successful, it doesn't really matter. 711 00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:29,799 Speaker 2: And you know, so if you study the history of 712 00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:37,200 Speaker 2: the Japanese modern economy, you find many, many examples of people, 713 00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:41,440 Speaker 2: you know, who really strike it rich, but in the 714 00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:45,480 Speaker 2: end they don't really care about how much money they have. 715 00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,880 Speaker 2: And that is the only element that would make you happy. 716 00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:54,840 Speaker 2: And you know that would make a Ragilian life a 717 00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:56,399 Speaker 2: topic that you're studying now. 718 00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:59,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, look absolutely, and I think there's a lot 719 00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:04,319 Speaker 1: of leaks the stoic philosophers as well, and yeah this, yeah, yeah, 720 00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:08,400 Speaker 1: where it's just about you know that we externalize our happiness, 721 00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:11,480 Speaker 1: but actually, how many people do do we know that 722 00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:14,719 Speaker 1: are very wealthy but depressed or not very happy, right, 723 00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:17,120 Speaker 1: And but you know, it would remind me of that 724 00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:20,759 Speaker 1: being in the here. And I remember reading I was 725 00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:24,359 Speaker 1: reading about Zaen and Zen Buddhism when I was in 726 00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:28,399 Speaker 1: my early twenties, and I, you know, was exploring lots 727 00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:32,960 Speaker 1: of different philosophy. And I remember this Zen Cohan where 728 00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:36,719 Speaker 1: this this training monk and went to went to the 729 00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,840 Speaker 1: you know, the head monk, and he was saying, you know, Master, 730 00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:44,920 Speaker 1: how do I how do I reach enlightenment? And the 731 00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:48,520 Speaker 1: Master said to him, have you finished your breakfast? And 732 00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:52,560 Speaker 1: he said yes, And he said, then then go wash 733 00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:56,759 Speaker 1: your bowl right, And and you know, I was like, 734 00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:01,239 Speaker 1: what the hell does that mean? And I thought about it, 735 00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:03,080 Speaker 1: and I thought about Nana forgot about It was only 736 00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:06,480 Speaker 1: years later that that that it was a bye and 737 00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:09,719 Speaker 1: and it was I was in something about mindfulness. I 738 00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,719 Speaker 1: was at some conference talking about mindfless and and the 739 00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,200 Speaker 1: power of it is about being in the present moment. 740 00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:17,840 Speaker 1: And I just remembered that Zen Cohen, and I'm like, 741 00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:22,560 Speaker 1: now I understand what it means. It's about being fully 742 00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:26,520 Speaker 1: engaged in the present moment, in whatever you are doing 743 00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:31,080 Speaker 1: to give it your full attention. Yeah, so that that 744 00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:31,840 Speaker 1: that here, and now. 745 00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:36,680 Speaker 2: You should really you should really visit one of these 746 00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:42,880 Speaker 2: zen temples. I mean, uh, when the Buddhist monk monks train, 747 00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:46,640 Speaker 2: that's exactly what they do. I mean, they go through 748 00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:52,120 Speaker 2: the deaily rituals of routines of eating and then cleaning 749 00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:56,200 Speaker 2: their boats and sleeping the gardens and because meditating and 750 00:50:56,239 --> 00:51:01,080 Speaker 2: so on. So there's nothing particular about the training. Actually, 751 00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:04,239 Speaker 2: it's something that we do every day. So some people 752 00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:09,200 Speaker 2: sometimes people say that the whole purpose of training in 753 00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:14,680 Speaker 2: the temple is to realize that whatever you do in 754 00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:19,440 Speaker 2: your daily life, it's like a meditation. I mean, no 755 00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:23,400 Speaker 2: matter what you do, every action in your daily life 756 00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:28,600 Speaker 2: is a meditation in itself. But you can't realize that 757 00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:31,479 Speaker 2: unless you go to the Buddhist tempo and. 758 00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:36,879 Speaker 1: Do some training, yes, and engage it. And so are 759 00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:38,880 Speaker 1: you guys having that? Sorry, I know you've got to 760 00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:42,200 Speaker 1: go in a couple of minutes. Are you seeing similar 761 00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:46,400 Speaker 1: things in Japanese use that we are seeing throughout the 762 00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:51,719 Speaker 1: Western world and that definitely big rises an anxiety and 763 00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:56,040 Speaker 1: depression with all of the social idea and being similar. 764 00:51:57,200 --> 00:51:59,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, we have our shell of that problems and the 765 00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:02,560 Speaker 2: problem poor is that you know, we have all these 766 00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:06,840 Speaker 2: wonderful traditions and I'm sure Iran and or sure you 767 00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:10,680 Speaker 2: have all these wonderful traditions, but you know the Japanese 768 00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:15,880 Speaker 2: young youth, young people forget and they are not connected 769 00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:18,799 Speaker 2: to this route. So I think that's why it is 770 00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:24,760 Speaker 2: important to a farm or are revisit all these wonderful 771 00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:28,839 Speaker 2: virus that having tested with time. 772 00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:32,759 Speaker 1: And absolutely yeah, whether it be historic philosophy or zen 773 00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:37,160 Speaker 1: Buddhism or the shalloon templar or Hinduism. You know, there 774 00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:40,160 Speaker 1: are there's so many things that that that that people 775 00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:44,600 Speaker 1: learned over the centuries. Right, So just just to sum 776 00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:47,680 Speaker 1: up came before you go, and just some quick advice 777 00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:51,400 Speaker 1: for people about finding the wrecky guy. Other than so 778 00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:54,080 Speaker 1: there's the five pillars. Is there any little bits of 779 00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:56,960 Speaker 1: advice that you would give to people outside of those 780 00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:58,080 Speaker 1: five pillars? 781 00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:04,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. I always think it is very important to find 782 00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:08,120 Speaker 2: your inner child. I mean, because you know, ich guy 783 00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:13,720 Speaker 2: is about not to lose touch with your in a child, 784 00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:16,960 Speaker 2: because when you're a child, actually you know all these 785 00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:21,279 Speaker 2: things intuitively, you know, starting small, being in the hair 786 00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:24,759 Speaker 2: now and releasing yourself a child is an expert in 787 00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:29,040 Speaker 2: releasing himself lf right, But as we grow older, we 788 00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:33,400 Speaker 2: forget all these things. So I think the best recipe 789 00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:38,880 Speaker 2: for eachy guy is two make your in a child 790 00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:42,520 Speaker 2: active and alive all through your life. 791 00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:47,080 Speaker 1: And yeah, spend time. Spend some time. Spend some time 792 00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:50,120 Speaker 1: with little children, right there is children. 793 00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:54,160 Speaker 2: That's a really great way to remind yourself of how 794 00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:58,239 Speaker 2: children behave. And I suspect you're doing exactly that. 795 00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:01,880 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and and and it's amazing just when you 796 00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:05,399 Speaker 1: see little kids get interested in something, really little ones 797 00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:09,560 Speaker 1: and they're so engaged, and yeah, it's pretty fantastic. Now 798 00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:11,400 Speaker 1: can we we We didn't I know you have to 799 00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:13,640 Speaker 1: go because you've you've got another meeting. We didn't get 800 00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:17,319 Speaker 1: time and to talk about your new book, The Way 801 00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:18,480 Speaker 1: of Nagomi. 802 00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:19,480 Speaker 3: So so here's what we do. 803 00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:20,640 Speaker 1: When is it being released? 804 00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:24,240 Speaker 2: Uh, April April? 805 00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:25,839 Speaker 3: So can we can? 806 00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:28,040 Speaker 1: We can we get you back on the podcast and 807 00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:30,040 Speaker 1: when you release your books to talk about this. 808 00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:35,440 Speaker 2: This has been fascinating. I really enjoyed every second of 809 00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:38,439 Speaker 2: our conversation. So it's my prettyer and I do hope 810 00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:41,520 Speaker 2: that you can come to Japan and enjoy sushi and 811 00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:46,560 Speaker 2: do the Cherry Broson you know, out of my ceremony 812 00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:49,520 Speaker 2: with a kind of a couple of cups of saki 813 00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:49,920 Speaker 2: and so on. 814 00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:52,600 Speaker 1: So anyway, thank you absolutely I look forward to that. 815 00:54:52,719 --> 00:55:02,040 Speaker 1: Thank you, Ken. This has been fabulous. So that's a 816 00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:05,919 Speaker 1: wrap for today's edition of the podcast. If you're enjoying it, 817 00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:09,160 Speaker 1: please leave us a review, as they really do help 818 00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:12,120 Speaker 1: much more than you think. Remember to check out the 819 00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:15,600 Speaker 1: show notes for today's episode, and also remember to hit 820 00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:20,040 Speaker 1: subscribe so that you get notified early of new releases 821 00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:21,000 Speaker 1: of the podcast. 822 00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:21,879 Speaker 3: See you next time.