Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series brow contains coarse
Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to
Speaker 1: you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian.
Speaker 2: This Morning, you said on Earth that Bronwan told you
Speaker 2: on a number of occasions that John would kill her
Speaker 2: if she made a claim on the house. Nowhere in
Speaker 2: your written statement have you said that. Why?
Speaker 3: Well, I don't know.
Speaker 4: I sat down with the police and I told them
Speaker 4: what I thought at the time.
Speaker 1: It can be an excruciating experience for a witness under pressure,
Speaker 1: giving evidence under oath in a crowded courtroom, knowing that
Speaker 1: a skillful lawyer opposite has rehearsed a list of pointed
Speaker 1: questions and is determined to challenge not just your memory,
Speaker 1: but your credibility and perhaps your integrity. And it's not personal.
Speaker 1: It's not the lawyer's fault. He or she is simply
Speaker 1: acting on instructions retained for a fee to represent a client,
Speaker 1: someone such as John Winfield, a man who was effectively
Speaker 1: fighting for his freedom for the rest of his life
Speaker 1: during the two thousand and two inquest in Lismore. John
Speaker 1: must have known that the police detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor
Speaker 1: wanted to level a murder charge at the earliest opportunity.
Speaker 1: The coronial proceeding was simply a legal stepping stone to
Speaker 1: this objective. John and his lawyer, Craig Leggett also knew
Speaker 1: from the exchanges in court on day one that the
Speaker 1: Deputy State Coroner, Karl Milavanovitch was deeply suspicious about what
Speaker 1: had happened to broman So as early as day two
Speaker 1: of the inquest, the chances that the coroner would get
Speaker 1: to the end of the proceeding and then recommend to
Speaker 1: the DPP that it prosecute a known person for murder
Speaker 1: were high.
Speaker 2: But in the evidence of.
Speaker 1: Bromwin's cousin, Megan Reid, John and his lawyer believed there
Speaker 1: was a lot to explore. Ambiguity and inconsistency, differences between
Speaker 1: who said what and when. These are the gems that
Speaker 1: lawyers seek to mind and then explore carefully in court
Speaker 1: in an effort to not just discredit a witness, but
Speaker 1: discredit a broader police case and perhaps pave a pathway
Speaker 1: from potential doom for John Winfield.
Speaker 2: What we know for sure and certain is that John's.
Speaker 1: Lawyer, Craig Leggett, focused intently on Megan's evidence. Shortly before
Speaker 1: this episode of the Bromwin series was released, I spoke
Speaker 1: to Megan about some of that evidence and the attacks
Speaker 1: on her credibility. You'll hear her take on these things too,
Speaker 1: but first, here's the rest of her time in the
Speaker 1: witness box on day two of.
Speaker 4: The inquest I mean, when you've had time to think
Speaker 4: about things, I suppose everything comes out. I've had so
Speaker 4: many conversations with Bromwin over the years. I've known all
Speaker 4: my life.
Speaker 2: There's nothing in your diary.
Speaker 3: Is that it does there have to be.
Speaker 2: We say, well, it is, if it's true.
Speaker 5: That it's true?
Speaker 3: Man, please, sorry, sorry.
Speaker 6: We'll get through this a lot easier if you just
Speaker 6: listen to the questions, don't speak over the top of
Speaker 6: each other. This is a fact finding mission, and you
Speaker 6: do your best to try and recall your memory and
Speaker 6: try and focus on the questions that mister Leggatt is asking.
Speaker 6: Think about them before your answer.
Speaker 2: If Bromwood had used the words to you that included
Speaker 2: he's threatening to kill me, you would have put those
Speaker 2: words in your diary, wouldn't you?
Speaker 4: Threatening to kill me is not what she said. She
Speaker 4: did not ever say he was threatening to kill me.
Speaker 2: Your allegation is that he said to Bromin, I'm going.
Speaker 1: To kill you.
Speaker 4: No, he did not say that. She did not say that,
Speaker 4: and I did not say that.
Speaker 3: I said that she told me he would kill her
Speaker 3: if she ever tried to get the house.
Speaker 2: And he would kill her. Nothing like that is found
Speaker 2: in your diary, is there.
Speaker 4: Well, no, I wouldn't have written that down, I suppose
Speaker 4: because she wasn't missing. I written my diary after she
Speaker 4: was missing.
Speaker 2: And you're seriously saying on oath that something is absolutely
Speaker 2: as critical as that somehow just flipped your mind.
Speaker 3: It never slipped my mind.
Speaker 4: I mean, she always maintained that right from carnladays And
Speaker 4: I don't know why it's not in my statement, but
Speaker 4: it's true.
Speaker 2: Well, it's not in your statement. It's not in your diary.
Speaker 2: And the first time you said that to the police
Speaker 2: is in the witness box this morning, isn't it.
Speaker 4: Well, in my diary are the entries of things that
Speaker 4: happened after she was gone. So obviously it's not there.
Speaker 4: And in a statement, I mean, I don't know why
Speaker 4: it's not there. I had a lot of information coming
Speaker 4: at once, like I don't know.
Speaker 3: I don't know, but it's true that she said that.
Speaker 1: In paragraph seven of her police statement, a document dated
Speaker 1: August eleventh, nineteen ninety eight, so four years before the
Speaker 1: inquest and her appearance as a witness, Megan stated this.
Speaker 4: What I do remember is that Bromwin told me when
Speaker 4: she was living in Cronulla that John had written her
Speaker 4: if she ever made a claim on his house. Apparently
Speaker 4: John had lost two houses before to previous wife and
Speaker 4: was very bitter about it.
Speaker 1: Meghan's police statement does not include the words threatened to kill.
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that Meghan didn't intend to say this
Speaker 1: when she made her statement in nineteen ninety eight, but
Speaker 1: those words were added by Meghan at the inquest.
Speaker 2: Well, let's look at some of the things that the
Speaker 2: police record you as having told the police.
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett took Meghan right back to nineteen ninety three
Speaker 1: again and Graham Diskin's running sheet.
Speaker 2: Meghan stated that she had twice spoken to the missing
Speaker 2: person only days before her disappearance. Now was that right?
Speaker 2: Had you spoken, yes, and only that she was able
Speaker 2: to recognize her voice, she would not have believed that.
Speaker 3: In fact, it was Bronwin she was angry.
Speaker 2: Meghan stated, the missing person was talking a lot of rubbish,
Speaker 2: but she did not seem to be affected by drugs
Speaker 2: or alcohol.
Speaker 3: No, she didn't. She was very coherent, so it was
Speaker 3: coherent rubbish. She was very no.
Speaker 4: Well, when I say rubbish, I didn't realize until later
Speaker 4: what she was talking about. It was rubbish to me
Speaker 4: because I didn't comprehend what she meant.
Speaker 2: Statements were made like you will all pay You can remember.
Speaker 3: That meaning the family the family, Well.
Speaker 2: Leaving aside what it means or what you understood it
Speaker 2: to mean. You seemed to be acknowledging that what was
Speaker 2: said or words to that effect was said in the
Speaker 2: phone conversation.
Speaker 3: Yes, that's right.
Speaker 2: And this statement none of you will know what is happening,
Speaker 2: that's right.
Speaker 4: I think she believed she was going to cut us
Speaker 4: off because we had cut her off.
Speaker 2: None of you will know what is happening, and other
Speaker 2: statements that meant nothing to Meghan. Next sentence, Meghan stated
Speaker 2: that she has no fears about John Field being involved
Speaker 2: in anything underward so far as his wife's disappearance is concerned.
Speaker 2: You said words to that effect to Detective Discan, didn't you.
Speaker 3: No, I don't remember saying that at all.
Speaker 2: Next sentence. In the past, she that's you, has questioned
Speaker 2: bron When over her attitude and lies about John and
Speaker 2: broun Won admitted she was seeking attention. Did you deal
Speaker 2: with that topic with Detective Discan.
Speaker 3: I've never believed that ever.
Speaker 2: No, No, just answer my question.
Speaker 4: No, I don't believe so. No. No, I don't know
Speaker 4: what's happened there.
Speaker 2: But no, no, let's try it again. Okay, No, just
Speaker 2: listen carefully to the question.
Speaker 1: The deputy state coroner, Karl Milavanovitch was listening patiently, and
Speaker 1: he had a firm message for Megan.
Speaker 6: Could I just interrupt there for a moment, Man, it's
Speaker 6: very important that you understand that what you're being questioned
Speaker 6: on is what you purportedly told sergeant.
Speaker 3: Yes, I understand that, not the state.
Speaker 7: Of your mind. Now, do you understand the difference.
Speaker 3: Yes, I don't remember saying that at all.
Speaker 6: Focus on that you're being asked questions about what you
Speaker 6: told Sergeant Discan back in nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 2: Yes, let me try that again. In the past, she
Speaker 2: questioned Bronwin over her attitude and lies about John and
Speaker 2: Bromwan admitted she was seeking attention. Now, my question is,
Speaker 2: can you remember that topic being discussed with Sergeant discm No,
Speaker 2: I cannot know if it had been discussed. We were
Speaker 2: aware in nineteen ninety three that Bronwin had told lies
Speaker 2: about John in the past.
Speaker 3: No, I'm not aware of anything like that.
Speaker 2: No, did you at any stage say to Sergeant Discan
Speaker 2: words to the effect Bronwyn has admitted to me that
Speaker 2: she's only seeking attention.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 2: Now you go on and you say this she this
Speaker 2: is you please that John is a great father and
Speaker 2: career of the two children involved in the marriage. Now,
Speaker 2: was that your opinion in September of nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 3: It was not my opinion in May of nineteen ninety.
Speaker 4: Three, So I don't recall that it would have been
Speaker 4: in September of nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 2: Despite that being what you now say is your opinion
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety three. Do you say you did not
Speaker 2: tell Sergeant Discin that John was a great father.
Speaker 4: I don't recollect saying that. But I also didn't believe
Speaker 4: he would ever harm the children. He looked after the children.
Speaker 2: I do believe Sergeant Diskin records this. Megan believes that
Speaker 2: in the past, Bronwan was a user of cannabis. Now,
Speaker 2: just pausing there, do you have knowledge one way or
Speaker 2: the other as to whether Bronwan has ever used cannabis?
Speaker 5: No, I do not.
Speaker 2: You're seriously saying that.
Speaker 3: I know that.
Speaker 2: I mean, was it your opinion that Bronwin could properly
Speaker 2: be described as a flower child?
Speaker 3: She was far from a flower. She was more of
Speaker 3: a glam.
Speaker 2: Let me put this to you, Sergeant Discin records it this.
Speaker 2: She may well be living on a commune somewhere. Now,
Speaker 2: did Sergeant Discan ever ask you about where you thought
Speaker 2: Bronwin might be? Was that topic ever discussed?
Speaker 3: I don't recollect that.
Speaker 2: No, but it may have been.
Speaker 3: Well, it may have been, but I don't know.
Speaker 4: And I know that I would have never have thought
Speaker 4: of Bromin on a commune.
Speaker 3: Never, never, never, ever, She wouldn't go to a commune.
Speaker 2: Are you denying that you said to Sergeant Discan words
Speaker 2: to the effect she may well be living on a
Speaker 2: commune somewhere.
Speaker 4: I don't recollect saying that whatsoever. I can't imagine myself
Speaker 4: saying that.
Speaker 2: You say, you don't recollect You're not going so far
Speaker 2: as to deny it.
Speaker 4: Well, I am denying that I said that because I
Speaker 4: don't believe I said that.
Speaker 3: It goes against everything I've ever thought.
Speaker 2: And no, now, let me take you to this. Sergeant
Speaker 2: Discin records this. Megan also reiterated the fact that her
Speaker 2: mother did exactly the same thing some years ago and
Speaker 2: believes that one day she will walk back into the
Speaker 2: family home as if nothing happened due to her state
Speaker 2: of mind at the time of her disappearance. Was that topic,
Speaker 2: that is the topic like mother, like daughter discussed with
Speaker 2: Sergeant Discin.
Speaker 3: I have always maintained no, no, just answer the question.
Speaker 4: No, Well, if it was, I've always maintained that she
Speaker 4: was nothing like her.
Speaker 3: Mother, nothing like her mother's well, just step by step.
Speaker 2: So you seem to be acknowledging that.
Speaker 3: The topic I'm not just wait, okay.
Speaker 2: You seem to be acknowledging that the topic of Bronwan's
Speaker 2: mother's behavior was discussed with Sergeant Discin.
Speaker 4: No, I'm not saying that at all. I don't remember
Speaker 4: talking to him about.
Speaker 3: It at all.
Speaker 2: But you're not denying I am.
Speaker 3: Not denying it.
Speaker 4: The topic I don't know, I don't know, I don't remember.
Speaker 4: It was a long, long, time ago.
Speaker 2: Now, Bronwyn ripping the phone off the wall. You can
Speaker 2: remember that event being described to.
Speaker 4: You, remember Crystal telling me about the event?
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Had Bromwin ever ripped the phone off the wall prior
Speaker 2: to that, as far as you're.
Speaker 3: Aware, prior to her disappearance or.
Speaker 2: To her ripping the phone off the wall on.
Speaker 3: That occasion, No, not that I know of.
Speaker 2: No, so it would be fair to describe that event
Speaker 2: as being something out of the ordinary.
Speaker 3: I'd say so.
Speaker 8: Yes.
Speaker 1: John's lawyer had two final questions for Megan. They related
Speaker 1: again to Centrelink and Bronwyn's sole parent pension. He took
Speaker 1: Megan further back in time to when Bromwyn had just
Speaker 1: moved into a flash in Cronala in the Shire with
Speaker 1: John and her daughter Crystal.
Speaker 2: It was nineteen eighty five. You spoke about friction between
Speaker 2: John and Bronwin in the Cronula days. Are you aware
Speaker 2: that when John and Bronwin were first living together, Bronwin
Speaker 2: was still claiming a sole parent pension from Centerlink.
Speaker 3: No, I wasn't aware of that.
Speaker 2: Did Bromwin ever say to you that that was the
Speaker 2: cause of the disharmony between Bronwin and John? And by
Speaker 2: that I mean that John wanted Bromwin to disclose tossentdling
Speaker 2: that she was no longer entitled to a sole parent
Speaker 2: pension and she was not prepared to.
Speaker 9: No.
Speaker 3: I've never heard of that before.
Speaker 10: No.
Speaker 1: As you heard in episode twenty one, John told the
Speaker 1: detective Graham Diskin that Bromwin agreed with John on the
Speaker 1: night of her disappearance that she would take her break
Speaker 1: from the children for eight to ten days while he
Speaker 1: took the children to Sydney. Sixteen days after that purported
Speaker 1: conversation with Bromwin, on the night she disappeared, John went
Speaker 1: and canceled her single parent government support payments and diverted
Speaker 1: those to himself. Craig Leggett's question to Megan suggested that
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty five, when Bromwin had just met John,
Speaker 1: Bromwin was claiming a single parent pench for the care
Speaker 1: of Crystal, and that after moving in with John in Quanulla,
Speaker 1: she kept receiving the government payment, creating disharmony between her
Speaker 1: and John because John believed she should no longer have
Speaker 1: been entitled to it. These were the lawyer's suggestions. John
Speaker 1: was simply correcting the record. Putting his name down as
Speaker 1: the children's single parent, according to Craig Legot. Finally, Megan
Speaker 1: Reid was excused. I'll just ask you a few brief
Speaker 1: questions if you're ready for here. You've been hearing your
Speaker 1: own evidence again, Megan, and the questions that you were
Speaker 1: asked by John's lawyer Craig Leggatt some very pointed questions
Speaker 1: at times, and challenges to your own memory and even credibility.
Speaker 1: What's it been like to go through that.
Speaker 5: I'm reliving the whole thing all over again.
Speaker 2: One of the.
Speaker 1: More striking parts of the cross examination related to your
Speaker 1: assertion that John had told you that he had seen Bromman,
Speaker 1: presumably in Brisbane, and that he had told broman don't
Speaker 1: come back. You're not welcome back. Do you remember the
Speaker 1: original conversation with John.
Speaker 4: John used to regularly come up with sightings from the
Speaker 4: commune and blah blah blah. But this time I remember
Speaker 4: that I was very wary of him. He was very,
Speaker 4: very strange at that time, and I told him I
Speaker 4: was leaving and he had to go.
Speaker 1: Meghan said that the disclosure from John occurred when she
Speaker 1: was holidaying with her children at her parents' apartment in
Speaker 1: the Focus Building in Surface Paradise. It was nineteen ninety four.
Speaker 1: John came to visit with Lauren and Crystal. He stayed
Speaker 1: for several days. Meghan has previously told me that John
Speaker 1: outstayed his welcome.
Speaker 4: I sat down on the bed where I had my
Speaker 4: suitcase as I was packing it.
Speaker 5: I can remember this so distinctly.
Speaker 4: And he told me that he knew where Bromin was,
Speaker 4: and he said that she had been found by the
Speaker 4: police at Brisbane Showground.
Speaker 3: My response was great.
Speaker 4: Because we're in Stuffy's paradise, Let's get in the car
Speaker 4: and go straight away and see her. And he said, no,
Speaker 4: he'd already done that, he'd seen her, and he had
Speaker 4: told her that after what she had done to him
Speaker 4: and the children by leaving him and leaving her children
Speaker 4: and not ever bothering to be in contact, that he
Speaker 4: didn't want her back.
Speaker 3: She could stay with the Sugar Daddy.
Speaker 4: After that, I never ever spoke to John or saw
Speaker 4: him again.
Speaker 5: Apart from the inquest, there is.
Speaker 1: Also timing inconsistency. In the previous episode, you heard a
Speaker 1: reference to me and John about these matters in nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety seven, as that is what is in Meghan's nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety eight statement, but Meghan is adamant that that's a mistake.
Speaker 1: In her statement, she is sure that she stopped talking
Speaker 1: to John in nineteen ninety four, around the time that
Speaker 1: she says John claimed he saw Bromwin alive and well
Speaker 1: in Brisbane.
Speaker 4: On any thing it happened in nineteen ninety seven, was
Speaker 4: my divorce came thrue?
Speaker 2: Were you skeptical about what John had told you?
Speaker 3: I thought it was a lie. It was an absolute lie.
Speaker 4: I don't believe for heartbeat that he's been up to
Speaker 4: Brisbane and seen her.
Speaker 1: John's lawyer did put to you that this must have
Speaker 1: been falsehood, an eer, something you've exaggerated or made up.
Speaker 1: Why is this extraordinary revelation from John, whether false or true,
Speaker 1: not in your statement that was taken four years prior
Speaker 1: to you giving evidence at the inquest. Why is it
Speaker 1: missing from that? Wouldn't it have been some of you
Speaker 1: wanted Glen tale to know. John told me this as well,
Speaker 1: He's actually seen romin well.
Speaker 4: I have called the police so many times to tell
Speaker 4: them what John had told me many times, and nobody.
Speaker 5: Will talk to me.
Speaker 2: We're not talking about that period.
Speaker 1: We're talking now about the nineteen ninety eight written statement.
Speaker 4: As far as I was concerned, it was no different
Speaker 4: apart from the fact that he said he saw then
Speaker 4: the other times had he told me that she had
Speaker 4: definitely been found, I definitely broughted it to the police.
Speaker 1: Megan also recalled that when her nineteen ninety eight statement
Speaker 1: was taken, she was sitting with her mother Leah and
Speaker 1: her father John Reid at their house in Sydney where
Speaker 1: they met Glen Taylor.
Speaker 4: There was myself and my parents sitting at a table
Speaker 4: with Glen Taylor and Timby with a manual typewriter.
Speaker 3: It wasn't a recorded interview.
Speaker 5: It wasn't structured.
Speaker 4: I didn't say much because Dad did most of the talking,
Speaker 4: because that's my dad.
Speaker 1: I don't believe that in any of Andy's evidence or
Speaker 1: in his statement, there's any suggestion that he heard from
Speaker 1: you that John had told you that he had seen
Speaker 1: Bromwin and told her stay away, don't come back.
Speaker 4: Everything I've ever said to Andrew seems to have gone
Speaker 4: in one ear and out the other.
Speaker 3: I don't think she's taken me seriously.
Speaker 1: At all, and she's sure that she told Andy at
Speaker 1: the time.
Speaker 4: And The only reason that I know that I did
Speaker 4: definitely called him is that I have the phone record, but.
Speaker 1: Me all that shows as you called him.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but that's so unusual, especially back then, because he
Speaker 4: didn't seem to want to hear from me at all.
Speaker 1: He formed a view that you were being milked by
Speaker 1: John for information, information that Andy had shared with you,
Speaker 1: and he was suggesting in his evidence that John was
Speaker 1: cunningly milking you for police information about what police were
Speaker 1: trying to follow up and wor suspecting and so on.
Speaker 2: What do you say to that?
Speaker 4: Oh, I find that ludicrous.
Speaker 3: What could he milk me for? I didn't know anything.
Speaker 4: I know what he's saying, but I don't understand why
Speaker 4: he would think that.
Speaker 1: Is it possible that in your conversations with John you
Speaker 1: have unintentionally imparted information provided to you by Andy, which
Speaker 1: Andy had gleaned from Discon's investigation.
Speaker 4: Absolutely out of the question. We never spoke about Bromwin ever.
Speaker 4: It was only about the children, what to cook for dinner,
Speaker 4: stuff like that. My discussions for John were not about
Speaker 4: Bromwin unless he specifically brought her up. Now, I don't
Speaker 4: understand Andrew, we thought that.
Speaker 5: Why didn't he talk to me about it?
Speaker 4: I know he told the police not to speak to me.
Speaker 5: I could not get on too discin.
Speaker 4: He wouldn't take my calls, I left messages and he
Speaker 4: would not bring me back. I think Andrew's got it
Speaker 4: completely wrong. He thought that I was the only one
Speaker 4: in contact with John, but no, Mom and Dad were
Speaker 4: in regular contact.
Speaker 3: In fact, they thought more of John than I did.
Speaker 2: After Bromin disappeared.
Speaker 1: Yes, we will probably never know whether the inconsistencies and
Speaker 1: differences in evidence were down to Megan. You'll recall that
Speaker 1: John's lawyer described her as a drama queen. Were police
Speaker 1: at fault for not taking a more exhaustive and accurate
Speaker 1: statement from Megan?
Speaker 2: Again, it is.
Speaker 1: Unlikely that we can get to the bottom of whether
Speaker 1: Megan was impersonated by someone else for the infamous disclosures
Speaker 1: attributed to her in September nineteen ninety three in that
Speaker 1: purported telephone conversation with the detective Graham Diskin, So, could you.
Speaker 7: Please tell us your full name?
Speaker 1: Ian Russell Lewis the man listeners know as Scruffy, had
Speaker 1: evidence about a property in Neuri Bar near Lennox Head
Speaker 1: where he and John worked and where Scruffy suspected Bromwin
Speaker 1: could be buried under an unusually thick concrete slab. Here's
Speaker 1: what Scruffy told me in episode eight about the building
Speaker 1: site and why he had speculated that it could be
Speaker 1: Bromwin's bury all place.
Speaker 8: We went to do a sort of laundry bathroom.
Speaker 11: Area, said, when you fucked the levels up here because
Speaker 11: it was thick laundry and darthrom areas don't have to
Speaker 11: be their thick and concrete deer.
Speaker 8: He was working there as a briglayer.
Speaker 1: In early twenty twenty five. At his home in Lenox,
Speaker 1: Scruffy agreed to go back in time and read his
Speaker 1: lines from the inquest. The semi retired concretor was on
Speaker 1: his best behavior in the courtroom and there were no
Speaker 1: f bombs. Matt Fordham began by asking Scruffy about disclosures
Speaker 1: made by Bromwyn and John in nineteen ninety three. Scruffy
Speaker 1: and his wife Maria were friendly with Bromwin. There were
Speaker 1: regular visits and outings. Scruffy knew John too from their
Speaker 1: work around the Lenox area. They worked together at times
Speaker 1: on jobs, and John had made disclosures to Scruffy, which
Speaker 1: he later shared with police. Matt Fordham asked about a
Speaker 1: conversation where Bromwin told Scruffy she would never let John
Speaker 1: get custody of the children.
Speaker 7: Do you remember, sir, did she say that on more
Speaker 7: than one occasion or just on one occasion.
Speaker 11: Well, it was said on more than one occasion, as
Speaker 11: she was seeing the female solicitors, I think in Lismore,
Speaker 11: and she used to drop in after picking up her
Speaker 11: daughter from school and dropped into our place on her
Speaker 11: way home, and she used to walk home.
Speaker 7: And sir, are you able to remember how long before
Speaker 7: Bromwin disappeared that she said that.
Speaker 11: Well, it was in the preceding couple of weeks.
Speaker 7: So also in your statement, you described some conversations that
Speaker 7: you had with Jonathan Winfield, and you say that you
Speaker 7: recall John telling you words of the effects, there is
Speaker 7: no way she's getting the house. I've already been through
Speaker 7: this twice before.
Speaker 11: Well, basically what was said was we were passing a
Speaker 11: previous house that he had built for a previous relationship,
Speaker 11: and I think we were working on his current house
Speaker 11: the time, and he just intimated that he didn't want
Speaker 11: him go through having to sell it to realize the
Speaker 11: assets of that relationship.
Speaker 7: Did Jonathan tell you that it was to do with
Speaker 7: proper settlement from a previous failed marriage.
Speaker 11: Or well, it was said that it was for a
Speaker 11: previous wife or relationship that he'd had.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham asked about a paragraph in Scruffy's nineteen ninety
Speaker 1: eight statement to police in which he said that he
Speaker 1: had challenged John about the whereabouts of Broman's body. This
Speaker 1: is how Scruffy described that conversation to me. When I
Speaker 1: met him at his home in Lennox Head. John was
Speaker 1: returning some building equipment which he had borrowed from.
Speaker 2: Scruffy and I've just brought you a year back.
Speaker 8: What do I owe you for it? I said, I'd
Speaker 8: just like to find out about Roman.
Speaker 11: And he said, I know what everyone's saying about me.
Speaker 11: And he said, the first person that says it public,
Speaker 11: I'm going to sue for defamation. I said, well, you're
Speaker 11: going to have to consume me, because fucking I know
Speaker 11: you're responsible for a death. I said, all I want
Speaker 11: to know is where you buried her. That's what I
Speaker 11: was into him, standing on the step looking at him.
Speaker 7: Was there any conversations around that issue?
Speaker 5: Will know.
Speaker 11: Well, it's common knowledge in a place like Lennox Head
Speaker 11: that there was talking, and I'm not the sorid of
Speaker 11: person that talks much behind people's backs.
Speaker 7: Did John respond in any other way than to say, well,
Speaker 7: that's what everyone else is saying around the town.
Speaker 8: Yeah, words to that effect.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 7: What was his demeanor at the time?
Speaker 2: He was cool?
Speaker 7: Was he shocked by that at all?
Speaker 9: No?
Speaker 7: Was he upset about that rumor being spread about him?
Speaker 11: Well, personally, I don't know what he was, you know,
Speaker 11: but he didn't give off any sign of being upset
Speaker 11: or whatever. But it's quite obvious that it was going
Speaker 11: around lennox Head, and it still is.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham turned to the Newibar property. There was a
Speaker 1: high degree of interest in the possibility that Bromwin was
Speaker 1: buried there under a slab of concrete.
Speaker 7: Have you since learnt the address of that house? No?
Speaker 11: And the thing with the house was that it was
Speaker 11: pure conjecture. I can't recall whether that was before, during,
Speaker 11: or after Romwin meant missing. But the thing was at
Speaker 11: the time when it was finally sort of a knowledge
Speaker 11: that she was missing, and I started thinking about, well,
Speaker 11: where when you possibly you put her and I couldn't
Speaker 11: recall where the house was because we only went there
Speaker 11: and concreted for the day, never saw the finished product,
Speaker 11: so I wouldn't know what it looked like when it
Speaker 11: was finished. And there's been a lot of places built
Speaker 11: around Uribar and it's a long time ago.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham confirmed with Scruffy that he was present when
Speaker 1: the slab was laid.
Speaker 8: Yeah, I bought it.
Speaker 7: And before the concrete was poured you could see into
Speaker 7: the area where it was to be poured. Yeah, and
Speaker 7: underneath where the concrete slab was, it was just the
Speaker 7: bare earth. Is that correct?
Speaker 11: No, it was plastic and it's all prepared and it
Speaker 11: would have been inspected by the council because it's part
Speaker 11: of the house and the steel and everything.
Speaker 8: It would have had inspections.
Speaker 1: In our view, Nurie Bar was a bit of a
Speaker 1: red herring, but illewom in the Southerland shire where John
Speaker 1: went the day after Brohman's disappearance should have been taken
Speaker 1: a lot more seriously.
Speaker 7: Do you have an opinion as to whether it would
Speaker 7: be possible for a body to be buried underneath that plastic.
Speaker 8: It's possible for a body to be buried anywhere.
Speaker 1: He asks Gruffy if he had noticed any disturbance to
Speaker 1: the form work.
Speaker 8: I couldn't see any.
Speaker 11: You know, if there had been some sign at the
Speaker 11: time that something was amiss, I would have noticed it
Speaker 11: right apart from the thickness of that area, you know.
Speaker 7: And you've since had no contact with anybody who has
Speaker 7: indicated to you the location of that unusually thick slab.
Speaker 7: Is that correct?
Speaker 1: Scruffy replied that he didn't know where the specific job
Speaker 1: site was. With the unusually thick concrete slab. He said
Speaker 1: he had driven out to Newibar to look for it,
Speaker 1: but he couldn't identify it from many jobs he'd worked
Speaker 1: on years earlier. He had told Glen Taylor he believed
Speaker 1: it was around the time of Bromin's disappearance, and this
Speaker 1: didn't rule out the possibility that the poor in fact
Speaker 1: occurred after Broman's disappearance. We know that John was in
Speaker 1: Sydney for about ten days after Bromin disappeared before returning
Speaker 1: to Lennox Head with Crystal and Lauren. But in two
Speaker 1: thousand and two, the new Rebar property was the only
Speaker 1: lead the inquest had to follow, and Matt Fordham persisted,
Speaker 1: he asked Scruffy more details about the concrete slab. Scruffy
Speaker 1: described the thick concrete slab in the laundry of the
Speaker 1: property as being three meters by three meters in side.
Speaker 1: When Matt Fordham had finished, John's lawyer stood up. He
Speaker 1: had new information that he had presented to the inquest
Speaker 1: the day before. The potential location of the Neuribar property
Speaker 1: to which Scruffy was referring was no longer a mystery.
Speaker 2: Mister Glewis, Can I suggest to you that the house
Speaker 2: that you were working on with John Winfield at Newybar
Speaker 2: was in fact Ernie Kisser's house in Martin's Lane Nurubar.
Speaker 8: It could be.
Speaker 2: Does that jog your memory?
Speaker 8: No, it doesn't jog my memory.
Speaker 11: The name of the place, don't really care whose place
Speaker 11: it is and whatever. But I would have had to
Speaker 11: get the direction from John to appear to concrete it.
Speaker 2: But in the course of that answer you said, didn't.
Speaker 8: You It could be that one it most from mears.
Speaker 2: Now working on that site. Along with you and mister Winfield,
Speaker 2: there were at least a half a dozen other blokes
Speaker 2: doing the form working, and the levels weren't there.
Speaker 11: When we went to concrete it. I think there was
Speaker 11: three of us and Genres there.
Speaker 2: Three, so yourself, John and a couple.
Speaker 11: Of other offsiders with us. I think it was only
Speaker 11: a couple of us.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, can I suggest to you that this particular
Speaker 2: house was being built as a pole house? Does that
Speaker 2: jog your memory?
Speaker 8: There might have been poles attached to one side of them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that the way the pole house is built
Speaker 2: is that because of the relationship between the ceiling height
Speaker 2: and the RLS, an excavation is done, which is often
Speaker 2: deeper than where the floors are actually going to end up.
Speaker 8: Yes, if they suffer the job up. Yes.
Speaker 1: An RL means reduced level. It's a reference point used
Speaker 1: throughout a bill to achieve the correct distance between the
Speaker 1: ceiling and floor height.
Speaker 2: And where there has been an over excavation, particularly in
Speaker 2: that Martin's Lane at Uruba, it is cheaper because of
Speaker 2: the way the soil is to just lay the concrete
Speaker 2: a bit thicker rather than to bring in earth.
Speaker 1: Scruffy replied that anything is cheaper than concrete.
Speaker 2: If the concrete is already ordered and it's going to
Speaker 2: be coming on site, then one way of bringing the
Speaker 2: floor height to the right. RL is simply by thickening
Speaker 2: up the concrete. That happens all the time on jobs,
Speaker 2: to your experience, doesn't.
Speaker 8: It unless in there has been made.
Speaker 2: No, but this was not the first time you've ever
Speaker 2: laid a slab that's been thicker than four inches? Is it? Oh?
Speaker 10: No?
Speaker 11: No, But the thing is to depending on where the
Speaker 11: slab was, and I'm just saying that it was unusual
Speaker 11: and the concrete was that thick through that area.
Speaker 2: Your worship just on that. I'm instructed that mister Kiss
Speaker 2: still lives in the house and his phone number is
Speaker 2: actually in the phone book, so it shouldn't be a
Speaker 2: particularly difficult exercise to get out there and conduct the investigation.
Speaker 1: Ultimately, the Newibar property, the one that was owned by
Speaker 1: Ernie Kiss with the concerns which Scruffy had raised, were
Speaker 1: not investigated further.
Speaker 2: By police at the time.
Speaker 1: It does seem improbable that Bromin's body could have been
Speaker 1: put there. In my view, the Illiwong property in the
Speaker 1: sutherland Shire holds the most promise and it has never
Speaker 1: been searched. Illiwog was not considered by police or Andy
Speaker 1: back in two thousand and two. When the inquest was
Speaker 1: being held in two thousand and two, they did not
Speaker 1: know about information which has come to light during this
Speaker 1: podcast investigation.
Speaker 2: There is something else though.
Speaker 1: Scruffy has raised with me his suspicions about a retaining
Speaker 1: wall in Sandstone Crescent. But again the timing makes it
Speaker 1: improbable in my view.
Speaker 11: Why has he gone all the trouble of laying a
Speaker 11: course of blocks and bricks along the wall to hide
Speaker 11: whatever the original concrete war was and the biquork goes
Speaker 11: up a fair bit higher.
Speaker 1: There would have been a lot of mixes of concrete
Speaker 1: to do it. Then it was the turn of Scruffy's wife,
Speaker 1: Maria Glewis. Matt Fordham asked brief questions of Maria. He
Speaker 1: began by asking Maria about a conversation which she had
Speaker 1: set out in her police statement of nineteen ninety eight.
Speaker 7: Do you remember how long it was before she disappeared,
Speaker 7: that you had that conversation.
Speaker 3: Quite a long time, a long time.
Speaker 7: And did you were you able to determine anything from
Speaker 7: her demeanor about her attitude towards Jonathan's behavior.
Speaker 12: Well, I think they lived a little bit on eggshells
Speaker 12: regarding the neatness and tidiness of the house where John
Speaker 12: was concerned.
Speaker 7: And did you get any impressions about whether that concerned Bromin.
Speaker 12: I think it made her uncomfortable.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: In episode three, you heard about Bromin's disclosures to Maria
Speaker 1: about phone calls John was making to Bromman at the
Speaker 1: Byron Street townhouse while John was working in Sydney.
Speaker 12: Bromnin would often tell me that John was wringing her
Speaker 12: nightly from Sydney, and she thought that he was checking
Speaker 12: up on her. She was extremely concerned by his phone calls,
Speaker 12: and she was very worried that he was trying to
Speaker 12: take the children from her. She got to the stage
Speaker 12: where she would not go out at night because of
Speaker 12: John's phone calls, and she would stay at home dreading
Speaker 12: the calls. Bronwin also told me that John had told
Speaker 12: her that he would do anything he had to do
Speaker 12: to keep the house, and that he'd already lost two
Speaker 12: houses to other women and was not about to lose
Speaker 12: this one.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham brought Maria to this paragraph in her statement,
Speaker 1: and he asked.
Speaker 7: Did she indicate to you whether she'd, for example, wanted
Speaker 7: to move back into the house or wanted to take
Speaker 7: the kids or wanted to leave completely.
Speaker 12: Well, she was concerned that she would have custody of
Speaker 12: the children. She did not want John to have custody
Speaker 12: of the children. She was very concerned that she should
Speaker 12: keep control of the children. She would have liked to
Speaker 12: have moved back into the house, and she took construction
Speaker 12: from a solicitor that since John was in Sydney, that
Speaker 12: she should move back into the vacant house, and that's
Speaker 12: what she did.
Speaker 7: Yes. Did you get the impression, ma'am, that Browin was
Speaker 7: totally concerned with keeping her children and that the reacquisition
Speaker 7: of the house was a secondary thing to Bronwin.
Speaker 12: Oh, definitely yes.
Speaker 1: The police officer asked Maria how she came to hear
Speaker 1: that Bromwin had supposedly gone away for a break, leaving
Speaker 1: the children with John.
Speaker 12: I think perhaps the people in the shop that she'd
Speaker 12: worked in at the time. She was working in a
Speaker 12: takeaway shop in Lennox Head, and when I went in there,
Speaker 12: they said, you know that she had gone supposedly on
Speaker 12: a holiday for a couple of weeks and left the
Speaker 12: children with John. And as I said, it was unbelievable
Speaker 12: because she was extremely concerned that she have custody of
Speaker 12: the children.
Speaker 7: Did the people in the takeaway shop indicate to you
Speaker 7: where they had that information from?
Speaker 9: No?
Speaker 7: No, And do you remember what sparked this conversation? Did
Speaker 7: you ask John what had happened to Bronwin No?
Speaker 3: Never.
Speaker 7: Did it appear to you that John was volunteering this
Speaker 7: information to you?
Speaker 12: Yes he did, he was. Yes, I think John had
Speaker 12: said he didn't know what had happened to Bronwyne gone
Speaker 12: and he had no idea where she was.
Speaker 5: And ma'am, do you.
Speaker 7: Believe that it's possible that Bromwin could have changed her
Speaker 7: mind and simply walked out on the children.
Speaker 2: No, I have no questions. Thank you, your worship.
Speaker 1: There is something else which stands out to me after
Speaker 1: rereading the evidence and being reminded of when Bromwin did
Speaker 1: certain things in her final weeks, like her writing to
Speaker 1: Crystal's biological father, Mark Davis and his family encouraging them
Speaker 1: to have a greater role in Crystal's life, and Bromin's
Speaker 1: disclosure to Crystal that her father was not John Winfield,
Speaker 1: the man whom she called dad. Bromwin told Cristel that
Speaker 1: her biological father was in fact a man called Mark Davis.
Speaker 1: John must have suspected that there was a powerful chance that,
Speaker 1: as a result, Mark Davis and his family would seek
Speaker 1: to be involved in Crystal's life. John's chances of defeating
Speaker 1: Bromwin in any contest for custody. And you'll recall Broman's
Speaker 1: friend Joan telling me right back near the start of
Speaker 1: the Bromwin series that Bromwin had over her John and
Speaker 1: his father talking about custody and how custody was a
Speaker 1: pathway to financial control of the house.
Speaker 3: She was worried because she had heard John.
Speaker 13: Talking to his father failed to be better if he
Speaker 13: had the kids. Peoples, he had better chance of having
Speaker 13: the house if he had the kids.
Speaker 1: It seemed that she was worried he had a strategy
Speaker 1: to see custody of the children.
Speaker 5: She was worried about it.
Speaker 10: He said, you'll have to teach me how to load
Speaker 10: the grass. Then it was the last time you spoke
Speaker 10: to her, so she had no intentions of just up
Speaker 10: and leaving.
Speaker 1: Bromwin would always be Crystal's mother, but John's role would
Speaker 1: be weakened if Bromwin's eldest daughter forged a new relationship
Speaker 1: with her biological father, Mark Davis did this contribute to
Speaker 1: what police believe was a suspected boil over in the house.
Speaker 1: On Sunday May sixteenth, nineteen ninety three, Bromlan's brother, Andy Reid,
Speaker 1: walked to the front of the court, the witness who
Speaker 1: had done more than anybody else to get a new
Speaker 1: investigation underway. Culminating in this inquest, matt Fordham raised an
Speaker 1: obvious point. He began by clap arrifying Andy's long term
Speaker 1: address in Carring Bar in Sydney's Sutherlandshire.
Speaker 7: And that's close to the Kronella shopping center. It's close
Speaker 7: to that area. Is that correct?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 9: Not even five minutes in the car, three minutes down
Speaker 9: the road.
Speaker 1: The likelihood that Bromwin had been walking around Kernella living
Speaker 1: a second secret life while her brother was living nearby
Speaker 1: with no idea seemed far fetched. Matt Fordham pressed the
Speaker 1: point for the coroner by asking Andy to list his
Speaker 1: active involvement in the community.
Speaker 2: Andy was no hermit.
Speaker 9: Currently, I'm the president of the Sharks Little Athletics Club
Speaker 9: with over three hundred children accessing parents galore. I've been
Speaker 9: involved with the Lily Pilly Soccer Club for the past
Speaker 9: four years before being involved in my children's sport. I
Speaker 9: ran Miranda Hotel cricket club in the sutherland Shire and
Speaker 9: played a gra cricket for ten or eleven ue years straight.
Speaker 7: Sir, through those associations, is it the case that you
Speaker 7: would have come into contact with a large number of
Speaker 7: people from the Cronulla area.
Speaker 9: I know a sqwillion people around the Cronulla area, So.
Speaker 7: Sir, do you believe that a large number of people
Speaker 7: in the Cronulla area would also recognize Bronwin?
Speaker 9: A large number of people in the Cronulla area would
Speaker 9: recognize Bronwyn.
Speaker 7: Yes, and Sir, nobody has apart from the witnesses that
Speaker 7: have been identified by the police, nobody has approached you
Speaker 7: and indicated that they've seen Bronwin at any time in
Speaker 7: the Cronulla area. Is that correct?
Speaker 9: No, no one has ever stated that.
Speaker 7: And certainly, sir, you haven't heard from Bronwyn since May
Speaker 7: nineteen ninety three, is that correct?
Speaker 2: That's correct.
Speaker 1: The police officer asked Andy about Bromwin's decision to leave
Speaker 1: the Sandstone Crescent house in early nineteen ninety three with
Speaker 1: the children. Bromwyn had been asking relatives for financial help.
Speaker 7: From your knowledge of the family, at the time, Sir
Speaker 7: was getting the bond money. Was that a problem for Bronwin.
Speaker 9: Yes, that was a big problem for Bromwin. John would
Speaker 9: not give her the bond money to actually go down
Speaker 9: and get the unit. Hence phone calls to me, to
Speaker 9: her mother, to John Reid to try and get the
Speaker 9: bond and the necessary first up funds she needed to
Speaker 9: get out of the relationship.
Speaker 1: The police officer asked whether Andy ever heard Bromwin become
Speaker 1: angry about not being able to get money that easily.
Speaker 9: I wouldn't use the term angry. She was concerned, possibly distressed,
Speaker 9: that she couldn't get the funds to be able to
Speaker 9: do what she needed to do, and that was to
Speaker 9: pay the bond and get herself set up in the townhouse.
Speaker 1: Andy confirmed that he had encouraged his sister to return
Speaker 1: to the house in Sandstone Crescent. Bromin was having money
Speaker 1: troubles and she was struggling to support herself and the
Speaker 1: children on her own. Matt Fordham reminded Andy of a
Speaker 1: phone call he'd had with Bromin on the night of
Speaker 1: May fourteen.
Speaker 7: And Sir, was that the last time you ever spoke
Speaker 7: with your sister? Is that correct?
Speaker 9: That's the last conversation I've ever had with my sister.
Speaker 1: Yes, Matt Fordham then took Andy to the day after
Speaker 1: Bromman disappeared, John had arrived at Andy and Michelle's house
Speaker 1: in the sutherland Shire late on the Monday afternoon May seventeen.
Speaker 1: When Andy arrived home from work, he saw his wife
Speaker 1: Michelle talking to John on the front porch.
Speaker 12: Sir.
Speaker 7: Also in your statement, you say, I remember John telling
Speaker 7: me that he hadn't looked to see if she'd taken
Speaker 7: a bag or anything with her.
Speaker 1: But Andy's statement from nineteen ninety eight had omitted something
Speaker 1: a handbag. A handbag for makeup and keys and things
Speaker 1: like that woon't have been relatively small, unlike a bag
Speaker 1: into which you could pack clothes for a few days
Speaker 1: break from the children.
Speaker 2: It is still missing.
Speaker 7: You mentioned a moment ago that she was alleged to
Speaker 7: have taken a handbag with her. Is that correct?
Speaker 2: I believe that is so. Yes.
Speaker 7: Can you tell us where you got that information from?
Speaker 7: Was it something that John told you on seventeen May
Speaker 7: or was it some other source that.
Speaker 9: Well, that information came from the fact that he was
Speaker 9: never able to tell us whether she took a suitcase,
Speaker 9: a bag or anything, but he has always claimed to
Speaker 9: me that her handbag.
Speaker 1: Was not at the house. Next, the police officer turned
Speaker 1: to an issue that had shocked and angered Andy and
Speaker 1: Michelle when they learned about it from Glenn Taylor.
Speaker 7: So, what's your understanding of the movements of Jonathan Winfield
Speaker 7: and the children when they came to Sydney, Because I
Speaker 7: understand your house was not their first port of call,
Speaker 7: was it.
Speaker 9: For the first five years or so of Broman's disappearance,
Speaker 9: we were led to believe that he had come to us.
Speaker 1: John did not tell Andy and Michelle on his visit
Speaker 1: to them on the Monday that he had already been
Speaker 1: to the house of his former wife, Jenny Mason, upon
Speaker 1: arriving in Sydney, and he did not know that John
Speaker 1: had left Crystal and Lauren that day with Jenny Mason's
Speaker 1: mother in law, Joan Mason.
Speaker 9: He had attempted to get Crystal and Lauren looked after
Speaker 9: at another residence in Sydney.
Speaker 1: And he had a lot to say at the inquest.
Speaker 1: He had been carrying the weight and some guilt over
Speaker 1: his sister's disappearance for nine years. After answering Matt Fordham's question,
Speaker 1: he continued with his own recollections.
Speaker 9: There were conversations there and even at one stage I
Speaker 9: had to ask John to stop contacting my wife because
Speaker 9: he was wringing her constantly with questions and me with
Speaker 9: all sorts of things like do you think if in
Speaker 9: talk around for me, do you think this could happen?
Speaker 9: So there were lots of conversations before bromwin even went
Speaker 9: back to the house.
Speaker 7: But just taking you back to seventeen May, when John
Speaker 7: had arrived at your doorstep at that time on that date,
Speaker 7: your understanding was that your house was the very first
Speaker 7: port of call that John had made in Sydney that day.
Speaker 7: Is that correct?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 7: And it wasn't until much much later that you learned
Speaker 7: that he'd gone to Jenny and Joan Mason's house first.
Speaker 7: Is that correct?
Speaker 1: That's correct.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: The police officer turned to an issue he found puzzling.
Speaker 7: Now, Sir, John Winfield produced to you a receipt for
Speaker 7: petrol he bought at eleven o six pm. Is that correct?
Speaker 9: That's correct. He showed me that receipt on my front veranda.
Speaker 7: And sir, do you remember the context of him producing
Speaker 7: that receipt? To you.
Speaker 9: He basically brought the receipt out of his pocket for
Speaker 9: some reason, to prove the exact time he left Ballina.
Speaker 9: For what reason, I didn't know at the time.
Speaker 7: And so when John and the children arrived, did you
Speaker 7: notice anything about the clothing that the children were wearing.
Speaker 9: Yeah, he'd arrived down in Sydney and had very limited
Speaker 9: clothing for the children, and they were in very light
Speaker 9: clothes because they had obtained a couple of things from
Speaker 9: wherever he was out and about on the day. Where
Speaker 9: those clothes came from, I don't know.
Speaker 1: It is possible that some items of clothing were provided
Speaker 1: by John's first wife, Jenny Mason, at her house in
Speaker 1: the Shire. In her nineteen ninety eight statement, she says
Speaker 1: that she could not remember whether she gave John clothes for.
Speaker 2: The girls or not.
Speaker 1: The girls arrived there wearing pajamas.
Speaker 12: I remember thinking at the time it was strange he
Speaker 12: hadn't brought any clothing for the children.
Speaker 3: It wasn't his normal character. He usually liked to be organized.
Speaker 9: I saw the kids in the afternoon, they weren't in pajamas.
Speaker 7: Did you speak to the children at all about what
Speaker 7: had happened that day?
Speaker 9: No, it was John's insistence from the absolute word go
Speaker 9: that nothing was ever ever spoken about in front of
Speaker 9: the two children.
Speaker 7: Do you know what the topic was that John did
Speaker 7: not want discussed in front of the children.
Speaker 9: Just anything that had anything to do with their mother.
Speaker 9: Do not discuss Broman in front of the children was
Speaker 9: basically you know.
Speaker 7: So that was made clear to you right from seventeen
Speaker 7: May ninety three. Is that correct?
Speaker 2: That's correct.
Speaker 1: Andy recalled the attempts that he made after Broman's disappearance
Speaker 1: to call the Lennox head house, but the phone was engaged.
Speaker 1: Andy and Michelle persuaded John to ask his neighbor Murray
Speaker 1: Nolan to go to the house to see what was
Speaker 1: going on.
Speaker 2: Matt Fordam asked.
Speaker 7: Do you recall John's attitude to that proposal.
Speaker 9: He wasn't against it. I couldn't say that he was
Speaker 9: against it, but like I say, it was our insistence
Speaker 9: that something should be done now and at this point
Speaker 9: in time to determine why we could not raise, why
Speaker 9: the phone was engaged, and to at least obtain whether
Speaker 9: she was in the house.
Speaker 7: Do you remember what John's attitude towards reporting the disappearance
Speaker 7: to the police was.
Speaker 3: Well at first.
Speaker 9: John had always stated to myself and my wife that
Speaker 9: she was only gone for a couple of days and
Speaker 9: that she should be back at work, So besides instigating
Speaker 9: checking the house and getting the phone back on the hook,
Speaker 9: at this stage there was no need to think that
Speaker 9: anything had happened.
Speaker 1: The police officer asked if Andy was aware of a
Speaker 1: time when Bromwin had disappeared from the lives of her
Speaker 1: children for anything more than a few days.
Speaker 9: No. The only time that I could even think that
Speaker 9: Bromwin was without her children was in a couple of
Speaker 9: trips that she took to Brisbane during the duration of
Speaker 9: my father's illness.
Speaker 1: When asked if he believed it was possible Bromwin could
Speaker 1: have walked out on the children, and he had a
Speaker 1: one word response no. The police officer asked Andy about
Speaker 1: his contact with John Winfield and Crystal and Lauren after
Speaker 1: Bromwin's disappearance.
Speaker 9: John had never raised children before on his own, so
Speaker 9: there was a lot of contact at first, but the
Speaker 9: more and more inquisitive that the questions became from myself
Speaker 9: and my wife, then the contact became less and less,
Speaker 9: to the point of absolutely nothing. Over the first few years.
Speaker 9: There was numerous and numerous times and requests can the
Speaker 9: kids come to Sydney, let them come down and see
Speaker 9: their uncle and Arnie and their cousins and all the rest,
Speaker 9: and every single attempt to access the children or see
Speaker 9: the children was denied.
Speaker 2: For a brief.
Speaker 1: Period, matt Fordham took Andy back again to John's arrival
Speaker 1: at the house in Sydney on the Monday evening. He
Speaker 1: asked Andy if he had seen any bags of clothing
Speaker 1: or toys, the sorts of things that would normally be
Speaker 1: taken with children on holiday.
Speaker 9: They had the dog with them, and I remember a
Speaker 9: pillow case, a pillow slip with just a few things
Speaker 9: shoved in it. They wouldn't even have had been a
Speaker 9: matching top and right pants to go with it. It
Speaker 9: was just a couple of odd bits of clothing.
Speaker 7: Did you see any suitcases being taken out of the
Speaker 7: car and placed in our house while the kids were
Speaker 7: staying with.
Speaker 5: You or no?
Speaker 9: Like I say, they turned up with absolutely nothing.
Speaker 7: Did you see any heavy objects being removed from the car?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 7: He said that in the initial stages, mister Winfield was
Speaker 7: contacting you quite often about the children. What sort of
Speaker 7: things would he ask you about the children.
Speaker 9: Well, a lot of the conversations were more to my wife,
Speaker 9: like he was ringing up with simple cooking questions, cleaning questions,
Speaker 9: just normal run of the mill. I suppose things that
Speaker 9: a fellow would ask.
Speaker 7: Did it strike you as strange that John would take
Speaker 7: them on a holiday or take them on a trip
Speaker 7: without learning about those things before he left with them.
Speaker 9: Of course that would strike anyone as pretty strange.
Speaker 1: And he told the inquest that John had told him
Speaker 1: on the Monday evening that John had learned Bromin was
Speaker 1: back at the house because he had called on Saturday
Speaker 1: afternoon and Crystal had picked up the phone. But as
Speaker 1: we know, Jody had talked to Bromin the night before,
Speaker 1: and he also said that John told him that John
Speaker 1: had caught a taxi from the airport to the sands
Speaker 1: Own Crescent house on the Sunday evening, And of course
Speaker 1: that's different to the version we know of John Watson
Speaker 1: picking John up at the airport and taking him.
Speaker 2: Via the ballon a police station.
Speaker 1: Then Matt Fordham turned to John's decision to cut Romwin's
Speaker 1: single parent pension off just sixteen days after her disappearance.
Speaker 9: That change was instigated by John Winfield. I recollect John
Speaker 9: ringing me and actually saying now that if I go
Speaker 9: and stop her family payments, that's a means and a
Speaker 9: ways to flush her out, because she will have no
Speaker 9: funds and her funds will dry up. And I can
Speaker 9: state that on the record with confidence.
Speaker 1: Andy Reid shared a theory about what had happened to Roman's.
Speaker 7: Body, and so are you aware whether the property has
Speaker 7: a septic tank?
Speaker 9: Yes, I am. It had just been a theory of
Speaker 9: mine that, Being in the building game myself, I know
Speaker 9: that there's great things you can do with acid and
Speaker 9: hydrated lime, and it was just a bit of a
Speaker 9: theory I had that possibly maybe she might have been
Speaker 9: tipped into the septic tank and whack a bag of
Speaker 9: lime in and the hydrochloric Mate, nothing's going to exist
Speaker 9: very long.
Speaker 1: The name that you are about to hear is new
Speaker 1: in this podcast investigation.
Speaker 7: So is it the case that you have also learned
Speaker 7: about some conversations that mister Winfield is alleged to have
Speaker 7: had with a lady named Lena.
Speaker 9: Mister Winfield struck up a relationship with Lena and it
Speaker 9: lasted for maybe approximately a couple of years or eighteen
Speaker 9: months or so.
Speaker 7: And this is after your sister has gone missing.
Speaker 9: Maybe twelve months later. Could have been a shorter period,
Speaker 9: but I estimate probably twelve months.
Speaker 7: Yes, And have you ever spoken with Lena about what
Speaker 7: happened between her and John.
Speaker 9: In nineteen ninety nine? If we want an exact date,
Speaker 9: we'd have to check my phone records. I obtained Lena's
Speaker 9: phone number off Glenn Taylor. I would estimate this phone
Speaker 9: call was probably three hours long. In that phone call,
Speaker 9: she confided in me that she did not want to
Speaker 9: be seen or even be in the same room as
Speaker 9: Jonathan Winfield ever again in her life. She said to me,
Speaker 9: she labeled him a doctor Jekyll and mister Hyde. She
Speaker 9: portrayed to me the story about when they went on
Speaker 9: a trip down through Melbourne. They did the Great Ocean
Speaker 9: road trip, and she was quite distressed by the end
Speaker 9: of that trip. She portrayed to me that that's when
Speaker 9: she chose to actually move out of living with Jonathan Winfield.
Speaker 9: And during that conversation that night, I asked her what
Speaker 9: was she told about Bromwin. Lena stated that Jonathan Winfield
Speaker 9: has always told her that Bromwin disappeared from the party
Speaker 9: she was at on the night of the fifteenth.
Speaker 7: Did she indicate to you whether she left the party
Speaker 7: with somebody or on her own.
Speaker 9: She didn't indicate.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 9: The only thing she indicated was that she knew, obviously
Speaker 9: through gossip and whatnot, that Bromwin was a missing person.
Speaker 9: And that is her belief, and that is what she
Speaker 9: stated to me that night on the phone that Jonathan
Speaker 9: Winfield has always stated to Lena that Bromwin disappeared and
Speaker 9: disappeared from the party on the Saturday night and never
Speaker 9: from the family home.
Speaker 1: The deputy state coroner jumped in with a question that
Speaker 1: was on everyone's lips.
Speaker 7: Where does this Lena live now, Sergeant your worship, I
Speaker 7: understand that the officer in charge had made some inquiries
Speaker 7: in relation to her, and I prefer to confirm the
Speaker 7: details before I indicate it to you, sir.
Speaker 1: In the Bromlin podcast series, this is the first time
Speaker 1: you have heard about Lena, and that's partly because Lena
Speaker 1: has tried.
Speaker 2: To keep a low profile.
Speaker 1: Many people knew and liked Lena, and some of these
Speaker 1: people were concerned for her.
Speaker 2: Here's Melanie Taylor.
Speaker 1: The daughter of deb and Murray, both of whom still
Speaker 1: live in Sandstone Crescent Full of Energy.
Speaker 4: It is very out there, very different from when she
Speaker 4: moved into the Sarsna present house after do you Know
Speaker 4: what happened.
Speaker 5: Now?
Speaker 1: In an upcoming episode, you will hear more about Lena,
Speaker 1: including from the detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor.
Speaker 2: Matt Fordham asked.
Speaker 1: Andy about the reliability of Meghan's evidence, including the conversations
Speaker 1: that she said she'd had with several people.
Speaker 9: I would say, if I had debaut it in simple terms,
Speaker 9: that it could be possible exaggerations, but nothing with intent
Speaker 9: to lie or do anything like that may be exaggerated
Speaker 9: or maybe too much emphasis on it.
Speaker 1: Early in this podcast series, Andy disclosed his concerns during
Speaker 1: the Detective Graham Diskin's nineteen ninety three investigation that John
Speaker 1: had effectively milked information from Megan Reid about angles and
Speaker 1: lines of police inquiry.
Speaker 7: Did you at any stage think that Meghan was a
Speaker 7: friend of John Winfield's.
Speaker 9: Well, yes, as in when Diskin was attempting to do something,
Speaker 9: the conversations I'd had with Jonathan Winfield and asking questions,
Speaker 9: he would know things that I had portrayed over the
Speaker 9: phone calls, and phone discussions with Megan. So basically I
Speaker 9: can only assume that Megan was in contact with John
Speaker 9: Winfield as well as me during conversations, and that I
Speaker 9: think John basically was clever enough to get information out
Speaker 9: of her during conversations.
Speaker 1: I spoke to Andy about some of Meghan's evidence just
Speaker 1: before this episode was finalized, since Bromin disappeared. One of
Speaker 1: the most remarkable claims was the one that Megan attributes
Speaker 1: to John, which is John purportedly saying to Megan.
Speaker 2: I have seen Bromwin in Brisbane and I.
Speaker 1: Told her to stay away, don't come back. And what
Speaker 1: I was just trying to understand is whether when Megan
Speaker 1: told you about it, you thought this is huge or
Speaker 1: whether you just missed it because she thought this is bullshit.
Speaker 9: I don't recall being told that John's the person that
Speaker 9: made the SERGI.
Speaker 1: Are you very sure that Megan didn't say to you
Speaker 1: John told me that he saw broman and he told
Speaker 1: her to stay away.
Speaker 9: She didn't know she's family, But I'm not a dick,
Speaker 9: so I didn't tell Diskin to stop talking to Mergan
Speaker 9: for no reason. She's never known that it was me
Speaker 9: that told Discan and She only found that out through
Speaker 9: the start of the podcash. I actually instructed the police
Speaker 9: not to talk to her anymore. Meghan's always wanted to
Speaker 9: know who that person was. What did the police stop
Speaker 9: talking driven?
Speaker 1: And he told me that he made this decision after
Speaker 1: he and Michelle were given some feedback by the detective
Speaker 1: Sergeant Graham Diskin in nineteen ninety three, and.
Speaker 9: He said to me, and every time I asked this
Speaker 9: fellow a question, he has an answer.
Speaker 3: It's as if he's prepared.
Speaker 8: Yeah, we thought there's.
Speaker 2: Going to be a way.
Speaker 9: How's he know or how is he so prepared to
Speaker 9: answer things all the time, which led to me to
Speaker 9: make some phone calls and start chasing up what was
Speaker 9: going on. And then that's when I found out that
Speaker 9: John had been in constant contact with Megan, so I
Speaker 9: would come two together and thought, well, this guy's clever
Speaker 9: enough to be picking her brain for whatever the family's thinking,
Speaker 9: which Megan sort of now to this day describes as oh, yes,
Speaker 9: but you've got to keep your friends close, but keep
Speaker 9: your enemies closer type.
Speaker 4: So Hi, I'm the only one that remained in contract
Speaker 4: with him after Romine's disappearance, and my reasoning being was
Speaker 4: that it keeps your enemies closer than your friends, kind
Speaker 4: of thing to find out. So I could find out
Speaker 4: what was going on, and I continue to be in
Speaker 4: contact with him virtually daily up into October ninety four.
Speaker 4: I had an argument Andrew just recently about this whole
Speaker 4: thinge Andrew was the point of contract for the lenge,
Speaker 4: and I never listened to it.
Speaker 9: She thought that she was doing the right thing, but
Speaker 9: in the end I perceived that she was just being
Speaker 9: led for every bit of information or any thought that
Speaker 9: the family you're thinking, and that gave him a means
Speaker 9: and a way to be able to explain things away constantly.
Speaker 9: I think that was quite detrimental to the early investigation.
Speaker 1: And he also had some breaking news in this most
Speaker 1: recent conversation I had with him.
Speaker 9: Got an email response from the coroner saying, what acknowledging correctly,
Speaker 9: that's actually addressed to mister Andrew Reid and not nobody,
Speaker 9: and just acknowledging the receipt of the letter on the
Speaker 9: fifth acknowledgement of the request and then just goes on
Speaker 9: to say it or be considered in Duke calls upon
Speaker 9: the completion of the current investigation.
Speaker 1: Andy's detailed letter to the State Coroner Teresa O'Sullivan, was
Speaker 1: written in the first week of December twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1: That's the letter in which Andy described the new evidence
Speaker 1: about Illawong and why he and we believe that the
Speaker 1: state coroner should use her powers to order a search
Speaker 1: beneath the concrete of the existing house there.
Speaker 2: Now Andy has got a proper reply.
Speaker 1: He would have preferred a decision, but Andy has become
Speaker 1: conditioned to what seems like inertia and even indifference in
Speaker 1: the agencies and departments funded to investigate unsolved murders. He
Speaker 1: is grateful now for the smallest wins.
Speaker 9: It's got me correctly named. It's just been sent from
Speaker 9: the Coroner's office, correctly signed off by a corannial level employee,
Speaker 9: not to resure Solomon.
Speaker 2: How do you feel about that?
Speaker 9: At least it's something formal which I'm plays with.
Speaker 2: We're heading in the right direction.
Speaker 9: They're taking it seriously, but we know how slight some
Speaker 9: of these worlds train.
Speaker 2: You're very patient, man, Andy. I don't think I could
Speaker 2: be as patient.
Speaker 9: No, I'm not really, but anyway, it just plays on
Speaker 9: your mind so much.
Speaker 2: Sleep poorly, always.
Speaker 9: Trussing a turn and thinking things through.
Speaker 1: We do not know what is going on behind the
Speaker 1: scenes in the restarted investigation by the Police Unsolved Homicide Unit,
Speaker 1: but Andy is hopeful that as far as actions by
Speaker 1: the coroner and police are concerned, he will see things
Speaker 1: start moving.
Speaker 9: A little bit quicker than the Star's Place that seems
Speaker 9: to be so fun.
Speaker 1: Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as
Speaker 1: a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information
Speaker 1: which may help solve this cold case, please contact me
Speaker 1: confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.
Speaker 1: You can read more about this case and see a
Speaker 1: range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bronwyn
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.
Speaker 1: The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey,
Speaker 1: Kristin Amier, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns,
Speaker 1: Liam Mendez, Sean Callen and Matthew Condon and David Murray,
Speaker 1: with assistance from Isaac Iron's. Audio production for this podcast
Speaker 1: series is by Wasabi w Audio and original theme music
Speaker 1: by Slade Gibson. We have been assisted by Madison Walsh,
Speaker 1: a relation of Bromwin Winfield. We can only do this
Speaker 1: kind of journalism with the support of our subscribers and
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