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Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series brow contains coarse

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Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to

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Speaker 1: you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian.

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Speaker 2: This Morning, you said on Earth that Bronwan told you

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Speaker 2: on a number of occasions that John would kill her

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Speaker 2: if she made a claim on the house. Nowhere in

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Speaker 2: your written statement have you said that. Why?

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Speaker 3: Well, I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I sat down with the police and I told them

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Speaker 4: what I thought at the time.

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Speaker 1: It can be an excruciating experience for a witness under pressure,

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Speaker 1: giving evidence under oath in a crowded courtroom, knowing that

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Speaker 1: a skillful lawyer opposite has rehearsed a list of pointed

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Speaker 1: questions and is determined to challenge not just your memory,

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Speaker 1: but your credibility and perhaps your integrity. And it's not personal.

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Speaker 1: It's not the lawyer's fault. He or she is simply

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Speaker 1: acting on instructions retained for a fee to represent a client,

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Speaker 1: someone such as John Winfield, a man who was effectively

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Speaker 1: fighting for his freedom for the rest of his life

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Speaker 1: during the two thousand and two inquest in Lismore. John

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Speaker 1: must have known that the police detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor

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Speaker 1: wanted to level a murder charge at the earliest opportunity.

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Speaker 1: The coronial proceeding was simply a legal stepping stone to

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Speaker 1: this objective. John and his lawyer, Craig Leggett also knew

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Speaker 1: from the exchanges in court on day one that the

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Speaker 1: Deputy State Coroner, Karl Milavanovitch was deeply suspicious about what

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Speaker 1: had happened to broman So as early as day two

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Speaker 1: of the inquest, the chances that the coroner would get

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Speaker 1: to the end of the proceeding and then recommend to

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Speaker 1: the DPP that it prosecute a known person for murder

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Speaker 1: were high.

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Speaker 2: But in the evidence of.

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Speaker 1: Bromwin's cousin, Megan Reid, John and his lawyer believed there

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Speaker 1: was a lot to explore. Ambiguity and inconsistency, differences between

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Speaker 1: who said what and when. These are the gems that

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Speaker 1: lawyers seek to mind and then explore carefully in court

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Speaker 1: in an effort to not just discredit a witness, but

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Speaker 1: discredit a broader police case and perhaps pave a pathway

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Speaker 1: from potential doom for John Winfield.

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Speaker 2: What we know for sure and certain is that John's.

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Speaker 1: Lawyer, Craig Leggett, focused intently on Megan's evidence. Shortly before

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Speaker 1: this episode of the Bromwin series was released, I spoke

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Speaker 1: to Megan about some of that evidence and the attacks

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Speaker 1: on her credibility. You'll hear her take on these things too,

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Speaker 1: but first, here's the rest of her time in the

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Speaker 1: witness box on day two of.

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Speaker 4: The inquest I mean, when you've had time to think

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Speaker 4: about things, I suppose everything comes out. I've had so

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Speaker 4: many conversations with Bromwin over the years. I've known all

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Speaker 4: my life.

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Speaker 2: There's nothing in your diary.

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Speaker 3: Is that it does there have to be.

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Speaker 2: We say, well, it is, if it's true.

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Speaker 5: That it's true?

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Speaker 3: Man, please, sorry, sorry.

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Speaker 6: We'll get through this a lot easier if you just

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Speaker 6: listen to the questions, don't speak over the top of

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Speaker 6: each other. This is a fact finding mission, and you

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Speaker 6: do your best to try and recall your memory and

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Speaker 6: try and focus on the questions that mister Leggatt is asking.

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Speaker 6: Think about them before your answer.

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Speaker 2: If Bromwood had used the words to you that included

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Speaker 2: he's threatening to kill me, you would have put those

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Speaker 2: words in your diary, wouldn't you?

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Speaker 4: Threatening to kill me is not what she said. She

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Speaker 4: did not ever say he was threatening to kill me.

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Speaker 2: Your allegation is that he said to Bromin, I'm going.

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Speaker 1: To kill you.

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Speaker 4: No, he did not say that. She did not say that,

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Speaker 4: and I did not say that.

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Speaker 3: I said that she told me he would kill her

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Speaker 3: if she ever tried to get the house.

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Speaker 2: And he would kill her. Nothing like that is found

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Speaker 2: in your diary, is there.

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Speaker 4: Well, no, I wouldn't have written that down, I suppose

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Speaker 4: because she wasn't missing. I written my diary after she

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Speaker 4: was missing.

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Speaker 2: And you're seriously saying on oath that something is absolutely

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Speaker 2: as critical as that somehow just flipped your mind.

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Speaker 3: It never slipped my mind.

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Speaker 4: I mean, she always maintained that right from carnladays And

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Speaker 4: I don't know why it's not in my statement, but

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Speaker 4: it's true.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's not in your statement. It's not in your diary.

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Speaker 2: And the first time you said that to the police

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Speaker 2: is in the witness box this morning, isn't it.

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Speaker 4: Well, in my diary are the entries of things that

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Speaker 4: happened after she was gone. So obviously it's not there.

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Speaker 4: And in a statement, I mean, I don't know why

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Speaker 4: it's not there. I had a lot of information coming

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Speaker 4: at once, like I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, but it's true that she said that.

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Speaker 1: In paragraph seven of her police statement, a document dated

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Speaker 1: August eleventh, nineteen ninety eight, so four years before the

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Speaker 1: inquest and her appearance as a witness, Megan stated this.

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Speaker 4: What I do remember is that Bromwin told me when

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Speaker 4: she was living in Cronulla that John had written her

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Speaker 4: if she ever made a claim on his house. Apparently

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Speaker 4: John had lost two houses before to previous wife and

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Speaker 4: was very bitter about it.

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Speaker 1: Meghan's police statement does not include the words threatened to kill.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that Meghan didn't intend to say this

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Speaker 1: when she made her statement in nineteen ninety eight, but

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Speaker 1: those words were added by Meghan at the inquest.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's look at some of the things that the

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Speaker 2: police record you as having told the police.

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Speaker 1: Craig Leggett took Meghan right back to nineteen ninety three

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Speaker 1: again and Graham Diskin's running sheet.

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Speaker 2: Meghan stated that she had twice spoken to the missing

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Speaker 2: person only days before her disappearance. Now was that right?

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Speaker 2: Had you spoken, yes, and only that she was able

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Speaker 2: to recognize her voice, she would not have believed that.

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Speaker 3: In fact, it was Bronwin she was angry.

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Speaker 2: Meghan stated, the missing person was talking a lot of rubbish,

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Speaker 2: but she did not seem to be affected by drugs

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Speaker 2: or alcohol.

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Speaker 3: No, she didn't. She was very coherent, so it was

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Speaker 3: coherent rubbish. She was very no.

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Speaker 4: Well, when I say rubbish, I didn't realize until later

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Speaker 4: what she was talking about. It was rubbish to me

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Speaker 4: because I didn't comprehend what she meant.

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Speaker 2: Statements were made like you will all pay You can remember.

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Speaker 3: That meaning the family the family, Well.

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Speaker 2: Leaving aside what it means or what you understood it

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Speaker 2: to mean. You seemed to be acknowledging that what was

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Speaker 2: said or words to that effect was said in the

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Speaker 2: phone conversation.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's right.

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Speaker 2: And this statement none of you will know what is happening,

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Speaker 2: that's right.

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Speaker 4: I think she believed she was going to cut us

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Speaker 4: off because we had cut her off.

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Speaker 2: None of you will know what is happening, and other

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Speaker 2: statements that meant nothing to Meghan. Next sentence, Meghan stated

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Speaker 2: that she has no fears about John Field being involved

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Speaker 2: in anything underward so far as his wife's disappearance is concerned.

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Speaker 2: You said words to that effect to Detective Discan, didn't you.

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Speaker 3: No, I don't remember saying that at all.

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Speaker 2: Next sentence. In the past, she that's you, has questioned

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Speaker 2: bron When over her attitude and lies about John and

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Speaker 2: broun Won admitted she was seeking attention. Did you deal

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Speaker 2: with that topic with Detective Discan.

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Speaker 3: I've never believed that ever.

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Speaker 2: No, No, just answer my question.

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Speaker 4: No, I don't believe so. No. No, I don't know

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Speaker 4: what's happened there.

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Speaker 2: But no, no, let's try it again. Okay, No, just

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Speaker 2: listen carefully to the question.

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Speaker 1: The deputy state coroner, Karl Milavanovitch was listening patiently, and

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Speaker 1: he had a firm message for Megan.

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Speaker 6: Could I just interrupt there for a moment, Man, it's

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Speaker 6: very important that you understand that what you're being questioned

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Speaker 6: on is what you purportedly told sergeant.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I understand that, not the state.

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Speaker 7: Of your mind. Now, do you understand the difference.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I don't remember saying that at all.

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Speaker 6: Focus on that you're being asked questions about what you

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Speaker 6: told Sergeant Discan back in nineteen ninety three.

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Speaker 2: Yes, let me try that again. In the past, she

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Speaker 2: questioned Bronwin over her attitude and lies about John and

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Speaker 2: Bromwan admitted she was seeking attention. Now, my question is,

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Speaker 2: can you remember that topic being discussed with Sergeant discm No,

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Speaker 2: I cannot know if it had been discussed. We were

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Speaker 2: aware in nineteen ninety three that Bronwin had told lies

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Speaker 2: about John in the past.

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Speaker 3: No, I'm not aware of anything like that.

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Speaker 2: No, did you at any stage say to Sergeant Discan

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Speaker 2: words to the effect Bronwyn has admitted to me that

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Speaker 2: she's only seeking attention.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 2: Now you go on and you say this she this

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Speaker 2: is you please that John is a great father and

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Speaker 2: career of the two children involved in the marriage. Now,

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Speaker 2: was that your opinion in September of nineteen ninety three.

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Speaker 3: It was not my opinion in May of nineteen ninety.

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Speaker 4: Three, So I don't recall that it would have been

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Speaker 4: in September of nineteen ninety three.

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Speaker 2: Despite that being what you now say is your opinion

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Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety three. Do you say you did not

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Speaker 2: tell Sergeant Discin that John was a great father.

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Speaker 4: I don't recollect saying that. But I also didn't believe

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Speaker 4: he would ever harm the children. He looked after the children.

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Speaker 2: I do believe Sergeant Diskin records this. Megan believes that

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Speaker 2: in the past, Bronwan was a user of cannabis. Now,

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Speaker 2: just pausing there, do you have knowledge one way or

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Speaker 2: the other as to whether Bronwan has ever used cannabis?

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Speaker 5: No, I do not.

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Speaker 2: You're seriously saying that.

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Speaker 3: I know that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, was it your opinion that Bronwin could properly

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Speaker 2: be described as a flower child?

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Speaker 3: She was far from a flower. She was more of

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Speaker 3: a glam.

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Speaker 2: Let me put this to you, Sergeant Discin records it this.

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Speaker 2: She may well be living on a commune somewhere. Now,

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Speaker 2: did Sergeant Discan ever ask you about where you thought

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Speaker 2: Bronwin might be? Was that topic ever discussed?

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Speaker 3: I don't recollect that.

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Speaker 2: No, but it may have been.

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Speaker 3: Well, it may have been, but I don't know.

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Speaker 4: And I know that I would have never have thought

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Speaker 4: of Bromin on a commune.

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Speaker 3: Never, never, never, ever, She wouldn't go to a commune.

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Speaker 2: Are you denying that you said to Sergeant Discan words

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Speaker 2: to the effect she may well be living on a

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Speaker 2: commune somewhere.

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Speaker 4: I don't recollect saying that whatsoever. I can't imagine myself

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Speaker 4: saying that.

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Speaker 2: You say, you don't recollect You're not going so far

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Speaker 2: as to deny it.

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Speaker 4: Well, I am denying that I said that because I

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Speaker 4: don't believe I said that.

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Speaker 3: It goes against everything I've ever thought.

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Speaker 2: And no, now, let me take you to this. Sergeant

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Speaker 2: Discin records this. Megan also reiterated the fact that her

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Speaker 2: mother did exactly the same thing some years ago and

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Speaker 2: believes that one day she will walk back into the

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Speaker 2: family home as if nothing happened due to her state

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Speaker 2: of mind at the time of her disappearance. Was that topic,

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Speaker 2: that is the topic like mother, like daughter discussed with

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Speaker 2: Sergeant Discin.

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Speaker 3: I have always maintained no, no, just answer the question.

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Speaker 4: No, Well, if it was, I've always maintained that she

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Speaker 4: was nothing like her.

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Speaker 3: Mother, nothing like her mother's well, just step by step.

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Speaker 2: So you seem to be acknowledging that.

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Speaker 3: The topic I'm not just wait, okay.

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Speaker 2: You seem to be acknowledging that the topic of Bronwan's

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Speaker 2: mother's behavior was discussed with Sergeant Discin.

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Speaker 4: No, I'm not saying that at all. I don't remember

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Speaker 4: talking to him about.

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Speaker 3: It at all.

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Speaker 2: But you're not denying I am.

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Speaker 3: Not denying it.

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Speaker 4: The topic I don't know, I don't know, I don't remember.

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Speaker 4: It was a long, long, time ago.

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Speaker 2: Now, Bronwyn ripping the phone off the wall. You can

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Speaker 2: remember that event being described to.

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Speaker 4: You, remember Crystal telling me about the event?

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Had Bromwin ever ripped the phone off the wall prior

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Speaker 2: to that, as far as you're.

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Speaker 3: Aware, prior to her disappearance or.

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Speaker 2: To her ripping the phone off the wall on.

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Speaker 3: That occasion, No, not that I know of.

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Speaker 2: No, so it would be fair to describe that event

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Speaker 2: as being something out of the ordinary.

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Speaker 3: I'd say so.

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Speaker 8: Yes.

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Speaker 1: John's lawyer had two final questions for Megan. They related

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Speaker 1: again to Centrelink and Bronwyn's sole parent pension. He took

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Speaker 1: Megan further back in time to when Bromwyn had just

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Speaker 1: moved into a flash in Cronala in the Shire with

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Speaker 1: John and her daughter Crystal.

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Speaker 2: It was nineteen eighty five. You spoke about friction between

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Speaker 2: John and Bronwin in the Cronula days. Are you aware

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Speaker 2: that when John and Bronwin were first living together, Bronwin

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Speaker 2: was still claiming a sole parent pension from Centerlink.

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Speaker 3: No, I wasn't aware of that.

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Speaker 2: Did Bromwin ever say to you that that was the

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Speaker 2: cause of the disharmony between Bronwin and John? And by

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Speaker 2: that I mean that John wanted Bromwin to disclose tossentdling

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Speaker 2: that she was no longer entitled to a sole parent

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Speaker 2: pension and she was not prepared to.

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Speaker 9: No.

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Speaker 3: I've never heard of that before.

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Speaker 10: No.

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Speaker 1: As you heard in episode twenty one, John told the

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Speaker 1: detective Graham Diskin that Bromwin agreed with John on the

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Speaker 1: night of her disappearance that she would take her break

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Speaker 1: from the children for eight to ten days while he

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Speaker 1: took the children to Sydney. Sixteen days after that purported

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Speaker 1: conversation with Bromwin, on the night she disappeared, John went

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Speaker 1: and canceled her single parent government support payments and diverted

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Speaker 1: those to himself. Craig Leggett's question to Megan suggested that

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Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty five, when Bromwin had just met John,

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Speaker 1: Bromwin was claiming a single parent pench for the care

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Speaker 1: of Crystal, and that after moving in with John in Quanulla,

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Speaker 1: she kept receiving the government payment, creating disharmony between her

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Speaker 1: and John because John believed she should no longer have

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Speaker 1: been entitled to it. These were the lawyer's suggestions. John

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Speaker 1: was simply correcting the record. Putting his name down as

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Speaker 1: the children's single parent, according to Craig Legot. Finally, Megan

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Speaker 1: Reid was excused. I'll just ask you a few brief

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Speaker 1: questions if you're ready for here. You've been hearing your

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Speaker 1: own evidence again, Megan, and the questions that you were

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Speaker 1: asked by John's lawyer Craig Leggatt some very pointed questions

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Speaker 1: at times, and challenges to your own memory and even credibility.

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Speaker 1: What's it been like to go through that.

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Speaker 5: I'm reliving the whole thing all over again.

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Speaker 2: One of the.

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Speaker 1: More striking parts of the cross examination related to your

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00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:07,440
Speaker 1: assertion that John had told you that he had seen Bromman,

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Speaker 1: presumably in Brisbane, and that he had told broman don't

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Speaker 1: come back. You're not welcome back. Do you remember the

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Speaker 1: original conversation with John.

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Speaker 4: John used to regularly come up with sightings from the

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Speaker 4: commune and blah blah blah. But this time I remember

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00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,840
Speaker 4: that I was very wary of him. He was very,

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Speaker 4: very strange at that time, and I told him I

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00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:34,920
Speaker 4: was leaving and he had to go.

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Speaker 1: Meghan said that the disclosure from John occurred when she

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Speaker 1: was holidaying with her children at her parents' apartment in

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Speaker 1: the Focus Building in Surface Paradise. It was nineteen ninety four.

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00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,960
Speaker 1: John came to visit with Lauren and Crystal. He stayed

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Speaker 1: for several days. Meghan has previously told me that John

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Speaker 1: outstayed his welcome.

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Speaker 4: I sat down on the bed where I had my

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Speaker 4: suitcase as I was packing it.

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Speaker 5: I can remember this so distinctly.

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Speaker 4: And he told me that he knew where Bromin was,

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00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,760
Speaker 4: and he said that she had been found by the

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Speaker 4: police at Brisbane Showground.

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Speaker 3: My response was great.

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00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,520
Speaker 4: Because we're in Stuffy's paradise, Let's get in the car

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00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:25,920
Speaker 4: and go straight away and see her. And he said, no,

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00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,480
Speaker 4: he'd already done that, he'd seen her, and he had

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Speaker 4: told her that after what she had done to him

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00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:37,040
Speaker 4: and the children by leaving him and leaving her children

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Speaker 4: and not ever bothering to be in contact, that he

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00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:42,080
Speaker 4: didn't want her back.

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Speaker 3: She could stay with the Sugar Daddy.

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Speaker 4: After that, I never ever spoke to John or saw

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00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:48,720
Speaker 4: him again.

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00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,720
Speaker 5: Apart from the inquest, there is.

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Speaker 1: Also timing inconsistency. In the previous episode, you heard a

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00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:00,680
Speaker 1: reference to me and John about these matters in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety seven, as that is what is in Meghan's nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety eight statement, but Meghan is adamant that that's a mistake.

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Speaker 1: In her statement, she is sure that she stopped talking

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Speaker 1: to John in nineteen ninety four, around the time that

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00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:21,920
Speaker 1: she says John claimed he saw Bromwin alive and well

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Speaker 1: in Brisbane.

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Speaker 4: On any thing it happened in nineteen ninety seven, was

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00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:26,760
Speaker 4: my divorce came thrue?

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Speaker 2: Were you skeptical about what John had told you?

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Speaker 3: I thought it was a lie. It was an absolute lie.

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Speaker 4: I don't believe for heartbeat that he's been up to

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Speaker 4: Brisbane and seen her.

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Speaker 1: John's lawyer did put to you that this must have

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00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:48,520
Speaker 1: been falsehood, an eer, something you've exaggerated or made up.

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00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:54,720
Speaker 1: Why is this extraordinary revelation from John, whether false or true,

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00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:59,520
Speaker 1: not in your statement that was taken four years prior

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00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,240
Speaker 1: to you giving evidence at the inquest. Why is it

345
00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:04,600
Speaker 1: missing from that? Wouldn't it have been some of you

346
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,640
Speaker 1: wanted Glen tale to know. John told me this as well,

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00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,320
Speaker 1: He's actually seen romin well.

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Speaker 4: I have called the police so many times to tell

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Speaker 4: them what John had told me many times, and nobody.

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00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:18,080
Speaker 5: Will talk to me.

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00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:20,679
Speaker 2: We're not talking about that period.

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00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,320
Speaker 1: We're talking now about the nineteen ninety eight written statement.

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Speaker 4: As far as I was concerned, it was no different

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Speaker 4: apart from the fact that he said he saw then

355
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,360
Speaker 4: the other times had he told me that she had

356
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Speaker 4: definitely been found, I definitely broughted it to the police.

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00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:45,600
Speaker 1: Megan also recalled that when her nineteen ninety eight statement

358
00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,920
Speaker 1: was taken, she was sitting with her mother Leah and

359
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,440
Speaker 1: her father John Reid at their house in Sydney where

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00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:53,680
Speaker 1: they met Glen Taylor.

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Speaker 4: There was myself and my parents sitting at a table

362
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Speaker 4: with Glen Taylor and Timby with a manual typewriter.

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00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:04,440
Speaker 3: It wasn't a recorded interview.

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Speaker 5: It wasn't structured.

365
00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,920
Speaker 4: I didn't say much because Dad did most of the talking,

366
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Speaker 4: because that's my dad.

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00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,439
Speaker 1: I don't believe that in any of Andy's evidence or

368
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:19,600
Speaker 1: in his statement, there's any suggestion that he heard from

369
00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:23,480
Speaker 1: you that John had told you that he had seen

370
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,760
Speaker 1: Bromwin and told her stay away, don't come back.

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Speaker 4: Everything I've ever said to Andrew seems to have gone

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00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:31,040
Speaker 4: in one ear and out the other.

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Speaker 3: I don't think she's taken me seriously.

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Speaker 1: At all, and she's sure that she told Andy at

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Speaker 1: the time.

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00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,159
Speaker 4: And The only reason that I know that I did

377
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,440
Speaker 4: definitely called him is that I have the phone record, but.

378
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Speaker 1: Me all that shows as you called him.

379
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, but that's so unusual, especially back then, because he

380
00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,040
Speaker 4: didn't seem to want to hear from me at all.

381
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:58,240
Speaker 1: He formed a view that you were being milked by

382
00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,960
Speaker 1: John for information, information that Andy had shared with you,

383
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,439
Speaker 1: and he was suggesting in his evidence that John was

384
00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:12,000
Speaker 1: cunningly milking you for police information about what police were

385
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,680
Speaker 1: trying to follow up and wor suspecting and so on.

386
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:16,040
Speaker 2: What do you say to that?

387
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:18,680
Speaker 4: Oh, I find that ludicrous.

388
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Speaker 3: What could he milk me for? I didn't know anything.

389
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,119
Speaker 4: I know what he's saying, but I don't understand why

390
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:25,919
Speaker 4: he would think that.

391
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,439
Speaker 1: Is it possible that in your conversations with John you

392
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:37,760
Speaker 1: have unintentionally imparted information provided to you by Andy, which

393
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,399
Speaker 1: Andy had gleaned from Discon's investigation.

394
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Speaker 4: Absolutely out of the question. We never spoke about Bromwin ever.

395
00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:50,040
Speaker 4: It was only about the children, what to cook for dinner,

396
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,480
Speaker 4: stuff like that. My discussions for John were not about

397
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:59,000
Speaker 4: Bromwin unless he specifically brought her up. Now, I don't

398
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 4: understand Andrew, we thought that.

399
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:02,560
Speaker 5: Why didn't he talk to me about it?

400
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 4: I know he told the police not to speak to me.

401
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 5: I could not get on too discin.

402
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,399
Speaker 4: He wouldn't take my calls, I left messages and he

403
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,320
Speaker 4: would not bring me back. I think Andrew's got it

404
00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:15,880
Speaker 4: completely wrong. He thought that I was the only one

405
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,520
Speaker 4: in contact with John, but no, Mom and Dad were

406
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:19,680
Speaker 4: in regular contact.

407
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,160
Speaker 3: In fact, they thought more of John than I did.

408
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:24,879
Speaker 2: After Bromin disappeared.

409
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:30,679
Speaker 1: Yes, we will probably never know whether the inconsistencies and

410
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:35,240
Speaker 1: differences in evidence were down to Megan. You'll recall that

411
00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 1: John's lawyer described her as a drama queen. Were police

412
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:44,160
Speaker 1: at fault for not taking a more exhaustive and accurate

413
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 1: statement from Megan?

414
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:47,400
Speaker 2: Again, it is.

415
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,879
Speaker 1: Unlikely that we can get to the bottom of whether

416
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:54,600
Speaker 1: Megan was impersonated by someone else for the infamous disclosures

417
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:58,920
Speaker 1: attributed to her in September nineteen ninety three in that

418
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 1: purported telephone conversation with the detective Graham Diskin, So, could you.

419
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:28,120
Speaker 7: Please tell us your full name?

420
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 1: Ian Russell Lewis the man listeners know as Scruffy, had

421
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,160
Speaker 1: evidence about a property in Neuri Bar near Lennox Head

422
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 1: where he and John worked and where Scruffy suspected Bromwin

423
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:45,679
Speaker 1: could be buried under an unusually thick concrete slab. Here's

424
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 1: what Scruffy told me in episode eight about the building

425
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 1: site and why he had speculated that it could be

426
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:53,879
Speaker 1: Bromwin's bury all place.

427
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 8: We went to do a sort of laundry bathroom.

428
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 11: Area, said, when you fucked the levels up here because

429
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 11: it was thick laundry and darthrom areas don't have to

430
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 11: be their thick and concrete deer.

431
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,440
Speaker 8: He was working there as a briglayer.

432
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,120
Speaker 1: In early twenty twenty five. At his home in Lenox,

433
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,440
Speaker 1: Scruffy agreed to go back in time and read his

434
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:24,199
Speaker 1: lines from the inquest. The semi retired concretor was on

435
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,239
Speaker 1: his best behavior in the courtroom and there were no

436
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 1: f bombs. Matt Fordham began by asking Scruffy about disclosures

437
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:38,679
Speaker 1: made by Bromwyn and John in nineteen ninety three. Scruffy

438
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 1: and his wife Maria were friendly with Bromwin. There were

439
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 1: regular visits and outings. Scruffy knew John too from their

440
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 1: work around the Lenox area. They worked together at times

441
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 1: on jobs, and John had made disclosures to Scruffy, which

442
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 1: he later shared with police. Matt Fordham asked about a

443
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 1: conversation where Bromwin told Scruffy she would never let John

444
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,360
Speaker 1: get custody of the children.

445
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,239
Speaker 7: Do you remember, sir, did she say that on more

446
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 7: than one occasion or just on one occasion.

447
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 11: Well, it was said on more than one occasion, as

448
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 11: she was seeing the female solicitors, I think in Lismore,

449
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 11: and she used to drop in after picking up her

450
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,679
Speaker 11: daughter from school and dropped into our place on her

451
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 11: way home, and she used to walk home.

452
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 7: And sir, are you able to remember how long before

453
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,680
Speaker 7: Bromwin disappeared that she said that.

454
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,440
Speaker 11: Well, it was in the preceding couple of weeks.

455
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 7: So also in your statement, you described some conversations that

456
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 7: you had with Jonathan Winfield, and you say that you

457
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 7: recall John telling you words of the effects, there is

458
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 7: no way she's getting the house. I've already been through

459
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 7: this twice before.

460
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 11: Well, basically what was said was we were passing a

461
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 11: previous house that he had built for a previous relationship,

462
00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:59,880
Speaker 11: and I think we were working on his current house

463
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 11: the time, and he just intimated that he didn't want

464
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 11: him go through having to sell it to realize the

465
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 11: assets of that relationship.

466
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 7: Did Jonathan tell you that it was to do with

467
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 7: proper settlement from a previous failed marriage.

468
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 11: Or well, it was said that it was for a

469
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 11: previous wife or relationship that he'd had.

470
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,959
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham asked about a paragraph in Scruffy's nineteen ninety

471
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 1: eight statement to police in which he said that he

472
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 1: had challenged John about the whereabouts of Broman's body. This

473
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,880
Speaker 1: is how Scruffy described that conversation to me. When I

474
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 1: met him at his home in Lennox Head. John was

475
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 1: returning some building equipment which he had borrowed from.

476
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 2: Scruffy and I've just brought you a year back.

477
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 8: What do I owe you for it? I said, I'd

478
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 8: just like to find out about Roman.

479
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 11: And he said, I know what everyone's saying about me.

480
00:26:58,000 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 11: And he said, the first person that says it public,

481
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 11: I'm going to sue for defamation. I said, well, you're

482
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 11: going to have to consume me, because fucking I know

483
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 11: you're responsible for a death. I said, all I want

484
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 11: to know is where you buried her. That's what I

485
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 11: was into him, standing on the step looking at him.

486
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 7: Was there any conversations around that issue?

487
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 5: Will know.

488
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 11: Well, it's common knowledge in a place like Lennox Head

489
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 11: that there was talking, and I'm not the sorid of

490
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 11: person that talks much behind people's backs.

491
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 7: Did John respond in any other way than to say, well,

492
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 7: that's what everyone else is saying around the town.

493
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 8: Yeah, words to that effect.

494
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 2: Yes.

495
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 7: What was his demeanor at the time?

496
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 2: He was cool?

497
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 7: Was he shocked by that at all?

498
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 9: No?

499
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 7: Was he upset about that rumor being spread about him?

500
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 11: Well, personally, I don't know what he was, you know,

501
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 11: but he didn't give off any sign of being upset

502
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 11: or whatever. But it's quite obvious that it was going

503
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 11: around lennox Head, and it still is.

504
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham turned to the Newibar property. There was a

505
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,919
Speaker 1: high degree of interest in the possibility that Bromwin was

506
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 1: buried there under a slab of concrete.

507
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 7: Have you since learnt the address of that house? No?

508
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 11: And the thing with the house was that it was

509
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 11: pure conjecture. I can't recall whether that was before, during,

510
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 11: or after Romwin meant missing. But the thing was at

511
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,360
Speaker 11: the time when it was finally sort of a knowledge

512
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 11: that she was missing, and I started thinking about, well,

513
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 11: where when you possibly you put her and I couldn't

514
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 11: recall where the house was because we only went there

515
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 11: and concreted for the day, never saw the finished product,

516
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 11: so I wouldn't know what it looked like when it

517
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 11: was finished. And there's been a lot of places built

518
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 11: around Uribar and it's a long time ago.

519
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham confirmed with Scruffy that he was present when

520
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: the slab was laid.

521
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 8: Yeah, I bought it.

522
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 7: And before the concrete was poured you could see into

523
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 7: the area where it was to be poured. Yeah, and

524
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 7: underneath where the concrete slab was, it was just the

525
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 7: bare earth. Is that correct?

526
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 11: No, it was plastic and it's all prepared and it

527
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 11: would have been inspected by the council because it's part

528
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 11: of the house and the steel and everything.

529
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 8: It would have had inspections.

530
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 1: In our view, Nurie Bar was a bit of a

531
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: red herring, but illewom in the Southerland shire where John

532
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 1: went the day after Brohman's disappearance should have been taken

533
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: a lot more seriously.

534
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 7: Do you have an opinion as to whether it would

535
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 7: be possible for a body to be buried underneath that plastic.

536
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 8: It's possible for a body to be buried anywhere.

537
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: He asks Gruffy if he had noticed any disturbance to

538
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 1: the form work.

539
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 8: I couldn't see any.

540
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 11: You know, if there had been some sign at the

541
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 11: time that something was amiss, I would have noticed it

542
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 11: right apart from the thickness of that area, you know.

543
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 7: And you've since had no contact with anybody who has

544
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 7: indicated to you the location of that unusually thick slab.

545
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:02,479
Speaker 7: Is that correct?

546
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 1: Scruffy replied that he didn't know where the specific job

547
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: site was. With the unusually thick concrete slab. He said

548
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 1: he had driven out to Newibar to look for it,

549
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: but he couldn't identify it from many jobs he'd worked

550
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 1: on years earlier. He had told Glen Taylor he believed

551
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: it was around the time of Bromin's disappearance, and this

552
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: didn't rule out the possibility that the poor in fact

553
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: occurred after Broman's disappearance. We know that John was in

554
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: Sydney for about ten days after Bromin disappeared before returning

555
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 1: to Lennox Head with Crystal and Lauren. But in two

556
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: thousand and two, the new Rebar property was the only

557
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 1: lead the inquest had to follow, and Matt Fordham persisted,

558
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 1: he asked Scruffy more details about the concrete slab. Scruffy

559
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: described the thick concrete slab in the laundry of the

560
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: property as being three meters by three meters in side.

561
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 1: When Matt Fordham had finished, John's lawyer stood up. He

562
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: had new information that he had presented to the inquest

563
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: the day before. The potential location of the Neuribar property

564
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: to which Scruffy was referring was no longer a mystery.

565
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 2: Mister Glewis, Can I suggest to you that the house

566
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 2: that you were working on with John Winfield at Newybar

567
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 2: was in fact Ernie Kisser's house in Martin's Lane Nurubar.

568
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 8: It could be.

569
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 2: Does that jog your memory?

570
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 8: No, it doesn't jog my memory.

571
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 11: The name of the place, don't really care whose place

572
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 11: it is and whatever. But I would have had to

573
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 11: get the direction from John to appear to concrete it.

574
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 2: But in the course of that answer you said, didn't.

575
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 8: You It could be that one it most from mears.

576
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 2: Now working on that site. Along with you and mister Winfield,

577
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 2: there were at least a half a dozen other blokes

578
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 2: doing the form working, and the levels weren't there.

579
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 11: When we went to concrete it. I think there was

580
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 11: three of us and Genres there.

581
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 2: Three, so yourself, John and a couple.

582
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 11: Of other offsiders with us. I think it was only

583
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 11: a couple of us.

584
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, can I suggest to you that this particular

585
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 2: house was being built as a pole house? Does that

586
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 2: jog your memory?

587
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,959
Speaker 8: There might have been poles attached to one side of them.

588
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that the way the pole house is built

589
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 2: is that because of the relationship between the ceiling height

590
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 2: and the RLS, an excavation is done, which is often

591
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 2: deeper than where the floors are actually going to end up.

592
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 8: Yes, if they suffer the job up. Yes.

593
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 1: An RL means reduced level. It's a reference point used

594
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 1: throughout a bill to achieve the correct distance between the

595
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: ceiling and floor height.

596
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 2: And where there has been an over excavation, particularly in

597
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 2: that Martin's Lane at Uruba, it is cheaper because of

598
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 2: the way the soil is to just lay the concrete

599
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 2: a bit thicker rather than to bring in earth.

600
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: Scruffy replied that anything is cheaper than concrete.

601
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 2: If the concrete is already ordered and it's going to

602
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 2: be coming on site, then one way of bringing the

603
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 2: floor height to the right. RL is simply by thickening

604
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 2: up the concrete. That happens all the time on jobs,

605
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 2: to your experience, doesn't.

606
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 8: It unless in there has been made.

607
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 2: No, but this was not the first time you've ever

608
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 2: laid a slab that's been thicker than four inches? Is it? Oh?

609
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 10: No?

610
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 11: No, But the thing is to depending on where the

611
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 11: slab was, and I'm just saying that it was unusual

612
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 11: and the concrete was that thick through that area.

613
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 2: Your worship just on that. I'm instructed that mister Kiss

614
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 2: still lives in the house and his phone number is

615
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 2: actually in the phone book, so it shouldn't be a

616
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 2: particularly difficult exercise to get out there and conduct the investigation.

617
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 1: Ultimately, the Newibar property, the one that was owned by

618
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 1: Ernie Kiss with the concerns which Scruffy had raised, were

619
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: not investigated further.

620
00:33:58,040 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 2: By police at the time.

621
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 1: It does seem improbable that Bromin's body could have been

622
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 1: put there. In my view, the Illiwong property in the

623
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 1: sutherland Shire holds the most promise and it has never

624
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 1: been searched. Illiwog was not considered by police or Andy

625
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: back in two thousand and two. When the inquest was

626
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 1: being held in two thousand and two, they did not

627
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 1: know about information which has come to light during this

628
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: podcast investigation.

629
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 2: There is something else though.

630
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:37,319
Speaker 1: Scruffy has raised with me his suspicions about a retaining

631
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 1: wall in Sandstone Crescent. But again the timing makes it

632
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 1: improbable in my view.

633
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 11: Why has he gone all the trouble of laying a

634
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 11: course of blocks and bricks along the wall to hide

635
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:56,399
Speaker 11: whatever the original concrete war was and the biquork goes

636
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 11: up a fair bit higher.

637
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 1: There would have been a lot of mixes of concrete

638
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 1: to do it. Then it was the turn of Scruffy's wife,

639
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 1: Maria Glewis. Matt Fordham asked brief questions of Maria. He

640
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 1: began by asking Maria about a conversation which she had

641
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,879
Speaker 1: set out in her police statement of nineteen ninety eight.

642
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 7: Do you remember how long it was before she disappeared,

643
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 7: that you had that conversation.

644
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 3: Quite a long time, a long time.

645
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 7: And did you were you able to determine anything from

646
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 7: her demeanor about her attitude towards Jonathan's behavior.

647
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 12: Well, I think they lived a little bit on eggshells

648
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,359
Speaker 12: regarding the neatness and tidiness of the house where John

649
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 12: was concerned.

650
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 7: And did you get any impressions about whether that concerned Bromin.

651
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 12: I think it made her uncomfortable.

652
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:43,439
Speaker 2: Yes.

653
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:48,240
Speaker 1: In episode three, you heard about Bromin's disclosures to Maria

654
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 1: about phone calls John was making to Bromman at the

655
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 1: Byron Street townhouse while John was working in Sydney.

656
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 12: Bromnin would often tell me that John was wringing her

657
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 12: nightly from Sydney, and she thought that he was checking

658
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,839
Speaker 12: up on her. She was extremely concerned by his phone calls,

659
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 12: and she was very worried that he was trying to

660
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 12: take the children from her. She got to the stage

661
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 12: where she would not go out at night because of

662
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,280
Speaker 12: John's phone calls, and she would stay at home dreading

663
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,399
Speaker 12: the calls. Bronwin also told me that John had told

664
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 12: her that he would do anything he had to do

665
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:19,399
Speaker 12: to keep the house, and that he'd already lost two

666
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,720
Speaker 12: houses to other women and was not about to lose

667
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 12: this one.

668
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham brought Maria to this paragraph in her statement,

669
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 1: and he asked.

670
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,280
Speaker 7: Did she indicate to you whether she'd, for example, wanted

671
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,839
Speaker 7: to move back into the house or wanted to take

672
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 7: the kids or wanted to leave completely.

673
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 12: Well, she was concerned that she would have custody of

674
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 12: the children. She did not want John to have custody

675
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 12: of the children. She was very concerned that she should

676
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 12: keep control of the children. She would have liked to

677
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 12: have moved back into the house, and she took construction

678
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 12: from a solicitor that since John was in Sydney, that

679
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 12: she should move back into the vacant house, and that's

680
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 12: what she did.

681
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 7: Yes. Did you get the impression, ma'am, that Browin was

682
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 7: totally concerned with keeping her children and that the reacquisition

683
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 7: of the house was a secondary thing to Bronwin.

684
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 12: Oh, definitely yes.

685
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: The police officer asked Maria how she came to hear

686
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 1: that Bromwin had supposedly gone away for a break, leaving

687
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 1: the children with John.

688
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 12: I think perhaps the people in the shop that she'd

689
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 12: worked in at the time. She was working in a

690
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,839
Speaker 12: takeaway shop in Lennox Head, and when I went in there,

691
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 12: they said, you know that she had gone supposedly on

692
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 12: a holiday for a couple of weeks and left the

693
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 12: children with John. And as I said, it was unbelievable

694
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 12: because she was extremely concerned that she have custody of

695
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:34,280
Speaker 12: the children.

696
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 7: Did the people in the takeaway shop indicate to you

697
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 7: where they had that information from?

698
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 9: No?

699
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 7: No, And do you remember what sparked this conversation? Did

700
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 7: you ask John what had happened to Bronwin No?

701
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:48,439
Speaker 3: Never.

702
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 7: Did it appear to you that John was volunteering this

703
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 7: information to you?

704
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 12: Yes he did, he was. Yes, I think John had

705
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,359
Speaker 12: said he didn't know what had happened to Bronwyne gone

706
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 12: and he had no idea where she was.

707
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 5: And ma'am, do you.

708
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 7: Believe that it's possible that Bromwin could have changed her

709
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 7: mind and simply walked out on the children.

710
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 2: No, I have no questions. Thank you, your worship.

711
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,720
Speaker 1: There is something else which stands out to me after

712
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 1: rereading the evidence and being reminded of when Bromwin did

713
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 1: certain things in her final weeks, like her writing to

714
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 1: Crystal's biological father, Mark Davis and his family encouraging them

715
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 1: to have a greater role in Crystal's life, and Bromin's

716
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: disclosure to Crystal that her father was not John Winfield,

717
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 1: the man whom she called dad. Bromwin told Cristel that

718
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: her biological father was in fact a man called Mark Davis.

719
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:51,799
Speaker 1: John must have suspected that there was a powerful chance that,

720
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: as a result, Mark Davis and his family would seek

721
00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 1: to be involved in Crystal's life. John's chances of defeating

722
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 1: Bromwin in any contest for custody. And you'll recall Broman's

723
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 1: friend Joan telling me right back near the start of

724
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 1: the Bromwin series that Bromwin had over her John and

725
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 1: his father talking about custody and how custody was a

726
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: pathway to financial control of the house.

727
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:25,760
Speaker 3: She was worried because she had heard John.

728
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 13: Talking to his father failed to be better if he

729
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 13: had the kids. Peoples, he had better chance of having

730
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:37,800
Speaker 13: the house if he had the kids.

731
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 1: It seemed that she was worried he had a strategy

732
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 1: to see custody of the children.

733
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 5: She was worried about it.

734
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 10: He said, you'll have to teach me how to load

735
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 10: the grass. Then it was the last time you spoke

736
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 10: to her, so she had no intentions of just up

737
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 10: and leaving.

738
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 1: Bromwin would always be Crystal's mother, but John's role would

739
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 1: be weakened if Bromwin's eldest daughter forged a new relationship

740
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 1: with her biological father, Mark Davis did this contribute to

741
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 1: what police believe was a suspected boil over in the house.

742
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:45,320
Speaker 1: On Sunday May sixteenth, nineteen ninety three, Bromlan's brother, Andy Reid,

743
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 1: walked to the front of the court, the witness who

744
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,959
Speaker 1: had done more than anybody else to get a new

745
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:57,319
Speaker 1: investigation underway. Culminating in this inquest, matt Fordham raised an

746
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 1: obvious point. He began by clap arrifying Andy's long term

747
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: address in Carring Bar in Sydney's Sutherlandshire.

748
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 7: And that's close to the Kronella shopping center. It's close

749
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:10,360
Speaker 7: to that area. Is that correct?

750
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 5: Yeah?

751
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,879
Speaker 9: Not even five minutes in the car, three minutes down

752
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 9: the road.

753
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 1: The likelihood that Bromwin had been walking around Kernella living

754
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 1: a second secret life while her brother was living nearby

755
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 1: with no idea seemed far fetched. Matt Fordham pressed the

756
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,840
Speaker 1: point for the coroner by asking Andy to list his

757
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: active involvement in the community.

758
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 2: Andy was no hermit.

759
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 9: Currently, I'm the president of the Sharks Little Athletics Club

760
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 9: with over three hundred children accessing parents galore. I've been

761
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:48,800
Speaker 9: involved with the Lily Pilly Soccer Club for the past

762
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 9: four years before being involved in my children's sport. I

763
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 9: ran Miranda Hotel cricket club in the sutherland Shire and

764
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 9: played a gra cricket for ten or eleven ue years straight.

765
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 7: Sir, through those associations, is it the case that you

766
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 7: would have come into contact with a large number of

767
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,279
Speaker 7: people from the Cronulla area.

768
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 9: I know a sqwillion people around the Cronulla area, So.

769
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,720
Speaker 7: Sir, do you believe that a large number of people

770
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 7: in the Cronulla area would also recognize Bronwin?

771
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 9: A large number of people in the Cronulla area would

772
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 9: recognize Bronwyn.

773
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 7: Yes, and Sir, nobody has apart from the witnesses that

774
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 7: have been identified by the police, nobody has approached you

775
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 7: and indicated that they've seen Bronwin at any time in

776
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 7: the Cronulla area. Is that correct?

777
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 9: No, no one has ever stated that.

778
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 7: And certainly, sir, you haven't heard from Bronwyn since May

779
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 7: nineteen ninety three, is that correct?

780
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 2: That's correct.

781
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 1: The police officer asked Andy about Bromwin's decision to leave

782
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 1: the Sandstone Crescent house in early nineteen ninety three with

783
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 1: the children. Bromwyn had been asking relatives for financial help.

784
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 7: From your knowledge of the family, at the time, Sir

785
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 7: was getting the bond money. Was that a problem for Bronwin.

786
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 9: Yes, that was a big problem for Bromwin. John would

787
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:12,919
Speaker 9: not give her the bond money to actually go down

788
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 9: and get the unit. Hence phone calls to me, to

789
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 9: her mother, to John Reid to try and get the

790
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:23,319
Speaker 9: bond and the necessary first up funds she needed to

791
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 9: get out of the relationship.

792
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 1: The police officer asked whether Andy ever heard Bromwin become

793
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,240
Speaker 1: angry about not being able to get money that easily.

794
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:38,879
Speaker 9: I wouldn't use the term angry. She was concerned, possibly distressed,

795
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 9: that she couldn't get the funds to be able to

796
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 9: do what she needed to do, and that was to

797
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 9: pay the bond and get herself set up in the townhouse.

798
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 1: Andy confirmed that he had encouraged his sister to return

799
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 1: to the house in Sandstone Crescent. Bromin was having money

800
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 1: troubles and she was struggling to support herself and the

801
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 1: children on her own. Matt Fordham reminded Andy of a

802
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 1: phone call he'd had with Bromin on the night of

803
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 1: May fourteen.

804
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 7: And Sir, was that the last time you ever spoke

805
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:11,760
Speaker 7: with your sister? Is that correct?

806
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 9: That's the last conversation I've ever had with my sister.

807
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 1: Yes, Matt Fordham then took Andy to the day after

808
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 1: Bromman disappeared, John had arrived at Andy and Michelle's house

809
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 1: in the sutherland Shire late on the Monday afternoon May seventeen.

810
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 1: When Andy arrived home from work, he saw his wife

811
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 1: Michelle talking to John on the front porch.

812
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:36,439
Speaker 12: Sir.

813
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:39,760
Speaker 7: Also in your statement, you say, I remember John telling

814
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 7: me that he hadn't looked to see if she'd taken

815
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:43,919
Speaker 7: a bag or anything with her.

816
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 1: But Andy's statement from nineteen ninety eight had omitted something

817
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 1: a handbag. A handbag for makeup and keys and things

818
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 1: like that woon't have been relatively small, unlike a bag

819
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,399
Speaker 1: into which you could pack clothes for a few days

820
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:02,760
Speaker 1: break from the children.

821
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 2: It is still missing.

822
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:08,239
Speaker 7: You mentioned a moment ago that she was alleged to

823
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 7: have taken a handbag with her. Is that correct?

824
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:13,239
Speaker 2: I believe that is so. Yes.

825
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:16,359
Speaker 7: Can you tell us where you got that information from?

826
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:18,759
Speaker 7: Was it something that John told you on seventeen May

827
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 7: or was it some other source that.

828
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 9: Well, that information came from the fact that he was

829
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 9: never able to tell us whether she took a suitcase,

830
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 9: a bag or anything, but he has always claimed to

831
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 9: me that her handbag.

832
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 1: Was not at the house. Next, the police officer turned

833
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 1: to an issue that had shocked and angered Andy and

834
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 1: Michelle when they learned about it from Glenn Taylor.

835
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 7: So, what's your understanding of the movements of Jonathan Winfield

836
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 7: and the children when they came to Sydney, Because I

837
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 7: understand your house was not their first port of call,

838
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 7: was it.

839
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 9: For the first five years or so of Broman's disappearance,

840
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 9: we were led to believe that he had come to us.

841
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 1: John did not tell Andy and Michelle on his visit

842
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 1: to them on the Monday that he had already been

843
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 1: to the house of his former wife, Jenny Mason, upon

844
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 1: arriving in Sydney, and he did not know that John

845
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:20,400
Speaker 1: had left Crystal and Lauren that day with Jenny Mason's

846
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:22,280
Speaker 1: mother in law, Joan Mason.

847
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:27,280
Speaker 9: He had attempted to get Crystal and Lauren looked after

848
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 9: at another residence in Sydney.

849
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 1: And he had a lot to say at the inquest.

850
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:36,919
Speaker 1: He had been carrying the weight and some guilt over

851
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 1: his sister's disappearance for nine years. After answering Matt Fordham's question,

852
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 1: he continued with his own recollections.

853
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 9: There were conversations there and even at one stage I

854
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:53,760
Speaker 9: had to ask John to stop contacting my wife because

855
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 9: he was wringing her constantly with questions and me with

856
00:46:57,239 --> 00:46:59,800
Speaker 9: all sorts of things like do you think if in

857
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 9: talk around for me, do you think this could happen?

858
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 9: So there were lots of conversations before bromwin even went

859
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 9: back to the house.

860
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 7: But just taking you back to seventeen May, when John

861
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:16,359
Speaker 7: had arrived at your doorstep at that time on that date,

862
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 7: your understanding was that your house was the very first

863
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,439
Speaker 7: port of call that John had made in Sydney that day.

864
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 7: Is that correct?

865
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 2: Yes?

866
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 7: And it wasn't until much much later that you learned

867
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,800
Speaker 7: that he'd gone to Jenny and Joan Mason's house first.

868
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 7: Is that correct?

869
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:33,240
Speaker 1: That's correct.

870
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 2: Yes.

871
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 1: The police officer turned to an issue he found puzzling.

872
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 7: Now, Sir, John Winfield produced to you a receipt for

873
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:46,280
Speaker 7: petrol he bought at eleven o six pm. Is that correct?

874
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 9: That's correct. He showed me that receipt on my front veranda.

875
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 7: And sir, do you remember the context of him producing

876
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 7: that receipt? To you.

877
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 9: He basically brought the receipt out of his pocket for

878
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 9: some reason, to prove the exact time he left Ballina.

879
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:06,359
Speaker 9: For what reason, I didn't know at the time.

880
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 7: And so when John and the children arrived, did you

881
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:12,320
Speaker 7: notice anything about the clothing that the children were wearing.

882
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:17,320
Speaker 9: Yeah, he'd arrived down in Sydney and had very limited

883
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 9: clothing for the children, and they were in very light

884
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:24,240
Speaker 9: clothes because they had obtained a couple of things from

885
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 9: wherever he was out and about on the day. Where

886
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:30,799
Speaker 9: those clothes came from, I don't know.

887
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 1: It is possible that some items of clothing were provided

888
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 1: by John's first wife, Jenny Mason, at her house in

889
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 1: the Shire. In her nineteen ninety eight statement, she says

890
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 1: that she could not remember whether she gave John clothes for.

891
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 2: The girls or not.

892
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 1: The girls arrived there wearing pajamas.

893
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 12: I remember thinking at the time it was strange he

894
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 12: hadn't brought any clothing for the children.

895
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 3: It wasn't his normal character. He usually liked to be organized.

896
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 9: I saw the kids in the afternoon, they weren't in pajamas.

897
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:11,239
Speaker 7: Did you speak to the children at all about what

898
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 7: had happened that day?

899
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 9: No, it was John's insistence from the absolute word go

900
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 9: that nothing was ever ever spoken about in front of

901
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 9: the two children.

902
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 7: Do you know what the topic was that John did

903
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 7: not want discussed in front of the children.

904
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:32,239
Speaker 9: Just anything that had anything to do with their mother.

905
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 9: Do not discuss Broman in front of the children was

906
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 9: basically you know.

907
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 7: So that was made clear to you right from seventeen

908
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:42,280
Speaker 7: May ninety three. Is that correct?

909
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 2: That's correct.

910
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 1: Andy recalled the attempts that he made after Broman's disappearance

911
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 1: to call the Lennox head house, but the phone was engaged.

912
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:57,320
Speaker 1: Andy and Michelle persuaded John to ask his neighbor Murray

913
00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:00,200
Speaker 1: Nolan to go to the house to see what was

914
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 1: going on.

915
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 2: Matt Fordam asked.

916
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:05,799
Speaker 7: Do you recall John's attitude to that proposal.

917
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 9: He wasn't against it. I couldn't say that he was

918
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 9: against it, but like I say, it was our insistence

919
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 9: that something should be done now and at this point

920
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 9: in time to determine why we could not raise, why

921
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 9: the phone was engaged, and to at least obtain whether

922
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 9: she was in the house.

923
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 7: Do you remember what John's attitude towards reporting the disappearance

924
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 7: to the police was.

925
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:33,360
Speaker 3: Well at first.

926
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:36,920
Speaker 9: John had always stated to myself and my wife that

927
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 9: she was only gone for a couple of days and

928
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 9: that she should be back at work, So besides instigating

929
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 9: checking the house and getting the phone back on the hook,

930
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 9: at this stage there was no need to think that

931
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:52,800
Speaker 9: anything had happened.

932
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 1: The police officer asked if Andy was aware of a

933
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 1: time when Bromwin had disappeared from the lives of her

934
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:02,719
Speaker 1: children for anything more than a few days.

935
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:06,399
Speaker 9: No. The only time that I could even think that

936
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 9: Bromwin was without her children was in a couple of

937
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 9: trips that she took to Brisbane during the duration of

938
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 9: my father's illness.

939
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 1: When asked if he believed it was possible Bromwin could

940
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,880
Speaker 1: have walked out on the children, and he had a

941
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 1: one word response no. The police officer asked Andy about

942
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 1: his contact with John Winfield and Crystal and Lauren after

943
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 1: Bromwin's disappearance.

944
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 9: John had never raised children before on his own, so

945
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 9: there was a lot of contact at first, but the

946
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:46,160
Speaker 9: more and more inquisitive that the questions became from myself

947
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:50,720
Speaker 9: and my wife, then the contact became less and less,

948
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 9: to the point of absolutely nothing. Over the first few years.

949
00:51:55,840 --> 00:52:00,360
Speaker 9: There was numerous and numerous times and requests can the

950
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:03,439
Speaker 9: kids come to Sydney, let them come down and see

951
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 9: their uncle and Arnie and their cousins and all the rest,

952
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:10,439
Speaker 9: and every single attempt to access the children or see

953
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:11,760
Speaker 9: the children was denied.

954
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 2: For a brief.

955
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 1: Period, matt Fordham took Andy back again to John's arrival

956
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 1: at the house in Sydney on the Monday evening. He

957
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:25,160
Speaker 1: asked Andy if he had seen any bags of clothing

958
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:28,360
Speaker 1: or toys, the sorts of things that would normally be

959
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:30,320
Speaker 1: taken with children on holiday.

960
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:33,960
Speaker 9: They had the dog with them, and I remember a

961
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 9: pillow case, a pillow slip with just a few things

962
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 9: shoved in it. They wouldn't even have had been a

963
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 9: matching top and right pants to go with it. It

964
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 9: was just a couple of odd bits of clothing.

965
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 7: Did you see any suitcases being taken out of the

966
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:52,440
Speaker 7: car and placed in our house while the kids were

967
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 7: staying with.

968
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 5: You or no?

969
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:56,720
Speaker 9: Like I say, they turned up with absolutely nothing.

970
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 7: Did you see any heavy objects being removed from the car?

971
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:01,279
Speaker 5: No?

972
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 7: He said that in the initial stages, mister Winfield was

973
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:08,239
Speaker 7: contacting you quite often about the children. What sort of

974
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:10,400
Speaker 7: things would he ask you about the children.

975
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 9: Well, a lot of the conversations were more to my wife,

976
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:19,279
Speaker 9: like he was ringing up with simple cooking questions, cleaning questions,

977
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,799
Speaker 9: just normal run of the mill. I suppose things that

978
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:23,920
Speaker 9: a fellow would ask.

979
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:26,879
Speaker 7: Did it strike you as strange that John would take

980
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 7: them on a holiday or take them on a trip

981
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:32,280
Speaker 7: without learning about those things before he left with them.

982
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 9: Of course that would strike anyone as pretty strange.

983
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:39,399
Speaker 1: And he told the inquest that John had told him

984
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:42,279
Speaker 1: on the Monday evening that John had learned Bromin was

985
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:45,320
Speaker 1: back at the house because he had called on Saturday

986
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 1: afternoon and Crystal had picked up the phone. But as

987
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 1: we know, Jody had talked to Bromin the night before,

988
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 1: and he also said that John told him that John

989
00:53:57,040 --> 00:53:59,880
Speaker 1: had caught a taxi from the airport to the sands

990
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:03,720
Speaker 1: Own Crescent house on the Sunday evening, And of course

991
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 1: that's different to the version we know of John Watson

992
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:11,000
Speaker 1: picking John up at the airport and taking him.

993
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:12,600
Speaker 2: Via the ballon a police station.

994
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:17,400
Speaker 1: Then Matt Fordham turned to John's decision to cut Romwin's

995
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:21,839
Speaker 1: single parent pension off just sixteen days after her disappearance.

996
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:27,480
Speaker 9: That change was instigated by John Winfield. I recollect John

997
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 9: ringing me and actually saying now that if I go

998
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:37,320
Speaker 9: and stop her family payments, that's a means and a

999
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 9: ways to flush her out, because she will have no

1000
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 9: funds and her funds will dry up. And I can

1001
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 9: state that on the record with confidence.

1002
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:50,880
Speaker 1: Andy Reid shared a theory about what had happened to Roman's.

1003
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:54,200
Speaker 7: Body, and so are you aware whether the property has

1004
00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 7: a septic tank?

1005
00:54:56,239 --> 00:54:59,239
Speaker 9: Yes, I am. It had just been a theory of

1006
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:03,200
Speaker 9: mine that, Being in the building game myself, I know

1007
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:05,440
Speaker 9: that there's great things you can do with acid and

1008
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 9: hydrated lime, and it was just a bit of a

1009
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 9: theory I had that possibly maybe she might have been

1010
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 9: tipped into the septic tank and whack a bag of

1011
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:21,840
Speaker 9: lime in and the hydrochloric Mate, nothing's going to exist

1012
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 9: very long.

1013
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:26,919
Speaker 1: The name that you are about to hear is new

1014
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:28,799
Speaker 1: in this podcast investigation.

1015
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:31,959
Speaker 7: So is it the case that you have also learned

1016
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 7: about some conversations that mister Winfield is alleged to have

1017
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:37,240
Speaker 7: had with a lady named Lena.

1018
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:41,799
Speaker 9: Mister Winfield struck up a relationship with Lena and it

1019
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:47,240
Speaker 9: lasted for maybe approximately a couple of years or eighteen

1020
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:47,799
Speaker 9: months or so.

1021
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:50,680
Speaker 7: And this is after your sister has gone missing.

1022
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:55,560
Speaker 9: Maybe twelve months later. Could have been a shorter period,

1023
00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 9: but I estimate probably twelve months.

1024
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:01,759
Speaker 7: Yes, And have you ever spoken with Lena about what

1025
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:03,840
Speaker 7: happened between her and John.

1026
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:08,759
Speaker 9: In nineteen ninety nine? If we want an exact date,

1027
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:12,680
Speaker 9: we'd have to check my phone records. I obtained Lena's

1028
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 9: phone number off Glenn Taylor. I would estimate this phone

1029
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:20,319
Speaker 9: call was probably three hours long. In that phone call,

1030
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:23,400
Speaker 9: she confided in me that she did not want to

1031
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:26,680
Speaker 9: be seen or even be in the same room as

1032
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:31,200
Speaker 9: Jonathan Winfield ever again in her life. She said to me,

1033
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:35,799
Speaker 9: she labeled him a doctor Jekyll and mister Hyde. She

1034
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:39,719
Speaker 9: portrayed to me the story about when they went on

1035
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:43,600
Speaker 9: a trip down through Melbourne. They did the Great Ocean

1036
00:56:43,719 --> 00:56:47,120
Speaker 9: road trip, and she was quite distressed by the end

1037
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 9: of that trip. She portrayed to me that that's when

1038
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:56,719
Speaker 9: she chose to actually move out of living with Jonathan Winfield.

1039
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:02,560
Speaker 9: And during that conversation that night, I asked her what

1040
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:09,120
Speaker 9: was she told about Bromwin. Lena stated that Jonathan Winfield

1041
00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:14,320
Speaker 9: has always told her that Bromwin disappeared from the party

1042
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 9: she was at on the night of the fifteenth.

1043
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:20,360
Speaker 7: Did she indicate to you whether she left the party

1044
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:21,959
Speaker 7: with somebody or on her own.

1045
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:24,320
Speaker 9: She didn't indicate.

1046
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:25,000
Speaker 2: No.

1047
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:30,960
Speaker 9: The only thing she indicated was that she knew, obviously

1048
00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:35,240
Speaker 9: through gossip and whatnot, that Bromwin was a missing person.

1049
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:40,120
Speaker 9: And that is her belief, and that is what she

1050
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:43,920
Speaker 9: stated to me that night on the phone that Jonathan

1051
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:48,640
Speaker 9: Winfield has always stated to Lena that Bromwin disappeared and

1052
00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:52,040
Speaker 9: disappeared from the party on the Saturday night and never

1053
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:53,360
Speaker 9: from the family home.

1054
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:57,920
Speaker 1: The deputy state coroner jumped in with a question that

1055
00:57:58,200 --> 00:57:59,600
Speaker 1: was on everyone's lips.

1056
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:03,920
Speaker 7: Where does this Lena live now, Sergeant your worship, I

1057
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:07,200
Speaker 7: understand that the officer in charge had made some inquiries

1058
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:09,880
Speaker 7: in relation to her, and I prefer to confirm the

1059
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 7: details before I indicate it to you, sir.

1060
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:16,880
Speaker 1: In the Bromlin podcast series, this is the first time

1061
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:20,720
Speaker 1: you have heard about Lena, and that's partly because Lena

1062
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:21,920
Speaker 1: has tried.

1063
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:23,200
Speaker 2: To keep a low profile.

1064
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:27,480
Speaker 1: Many people knew and liked Lena, and some of these

1065
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:29,400
Speaker 1: people were concerned for her.

1066
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:32,200
Speaker 2: Here's Melanie Taylor.

1067
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:34,840
Speaker 1: The daughter of deb and Murray, both of whom still

1068
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,880
Speaker 1: live in Sandstone Crescent Full of Energy.

1069
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:41,120
Speaker 4: It is very out there, very different from when she

1070
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:44,160
Speaker 4: moved into the Sarsna present house after do you Know

1071
00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:45,200
Speaker 4: what happened.

1072
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:47,400
Speaker 5: Now?

1073
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:52,120
Speaker 1: In an upcoming episode, you will hear more about Lena,

1074
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:55,320
Speaker 1: including from the detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor.

1075
00:58:56,680 --> 00:58:58,160
Speaker 2: Matt Fordham asked.

1076
00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:03,400
Speaker 1: Andy about the reliability of Meghan's evidence, including the conversations

1077
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:06,280
Speaker 1: that she said she'd had with several people.

1078
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:10,600
Speaker 9: I would say, if I had debaut it in simple terms,

1079
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 9: that it could be possible exaggerations, but nothing with intent

1080
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:20,240
Speaker 9: to lie or do anything like that may be exaggerated

1081
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:22,960
Speaker 9: or maybe too much emphasis on it.

1082
00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:29,160
Speaker 1: Early in this podcast series, Andy disclosed his concerns during

1083
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 1: the Detective Graham Diskin's nineteen ninety three investigation that John

1084
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:39,560
Speaker 1: had effectively milked information from Megan Reid about angles and

1085
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:41,440
Speaker 1: lines of police inquiry.

1086
00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:45,000
Speaker 7: Did you at any stage think that Meghan was a

1087
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:46,400
Speaker 7: friend of John Winfield's.

1088
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:50,800
Speaker 9: Well, yes, as in when Diskin was attempting to do something,

1089
00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 9: the conversations I'd had with Jonathan Winfield and asking questions,

1090
00:59:57,120 --> 01:00:00,480
Speaker 9: he would know things that I had portrayed over the

1091
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:05,120
Speaker 9: phone calls, and phone discussions with Megan. So basically I

1092
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:08,640
Speaker 9: can only assume that Megan was in contact with John

1093
01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 9: Winfield as well as me during conversations, and that I

1094
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:18,720
Speaker 9: think John basically was clever enough to get information out

1095
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:20,320
Speaker 9: of her during conversations.

1096
01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:25,320
Speaker 1: I spoke to Andy about some of Meghan's evidence just

1097
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:31,600
Speaker 1: before this episode was finalized, since Bromin disappeared. One of

1098
01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 1: the most remarkable claims was the one that Megan attributes

1099
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:43,480
Speaker 1: to John, which is John purportedly saying to Megan.

1100
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:47,080
Speaker 2: I have seen Bromwin in Brisbane and I.

1101
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:51,640
Speaker 1: Told her to stay away, don't come back. And what

1102
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:55,200
Speaker 1: I was just trying to understand is whether when Megan

1103
01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:59,280
Speaker 1: told you about it, you thought this is huge or

1104
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:01,880
Speaker 1: whether you just missed it because she thought this is bullshit.

1105
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:06,240
Speaker 9: I don't recall being told that John's the person that

1106
01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:07,280
Speaker 9: made the SERGI.

1107
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:11,760
Speaker 1: Are you very sure that Megan didn't say to you

1108
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:15,120
Speaker 1: John told me that he saw broman and he told

1109
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:16,040
Speaker 1: her to stay away.

1110
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:20,120
Speaker 9: She didn't know she's family, But I'm not a dick,

1111
01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:22,840
Speaker 9: so I didn't tell Diskin to stop talking to Mergan

1112
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:26,040
Speaker 9: for no reason. She's never known that it was me

1113
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 9: that told Discan and She only found that out through

1114
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:33,720
Speaker 9: the start of the podcash. I actually instructed the police

1115
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 9: not to talk to her anymore. Meghan's always wanted to

1116
01:01:38,080 --> 01:01:40,200
Speaker 9: know who that person was. What did the police stop

1117
01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:40,920
Speaker 9: talking driven?

1118
01:01:42,160 --> 01:01:45,040
Speaker 1: And he told me that he made this decision after

1119
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:48,440
Speaker 1: he and Michelle were given some feedback by the detective

1120
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:52,520
Speaker 1: Sergeant Graham Diskin in nineteen ninety three, and.

1121
01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:55,400
Speaker 9: He said to me, and every time I asked this

1122
01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 9: fellow a question, he has an answer.

1123
01:01:57,600 --> 01:01:58,880
Speaker 3: It's as if he's prepared.

1124
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:01,680
Speaker 8: Yeah, we thought there's.

1125
01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:02,120
Speaker 2: Going to be a way.

1126
01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:04,240
Speaker 9: How's he know or how is he so prepared to

1127
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:07,680
Speaker 9: answer things all the time, which led to me to

1128
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:11,600
Speaker 9: make some phone calls and start chasing up what was

1129
01:02:11,640 --> 01:02:14,400
Speaker 9: going on. And then that's when I found out that

1130
01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:19,720
Speaker 9: John had been in constant contact with Megan, so I

1131
01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:22,439
Speaker 9: would come two together and thought, well, this guy's clever

1132
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:26,440
Speaker 9: enough to be picking her brain for whatever the family's thinking,

1133
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:30,960
Speaker 9: which Megan sort of now to this day describes as oh, yes,

1134
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:34,280
Speaker 9: but you've got to keep your friends close, but keep

1135
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:35,560
Speaker 9: your enemies closer type.

1136
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:39,680
Speaker 4: So Hi, I'm the only one that remained in contract

1137
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:44,480
Speaker 4: with him after Romine's disappearance, and my reasoning being was

1138
01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:47,000
Speaker 4: that it keeps your enemies closer than your friends, kind

1139
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:48,920
Speaker 4: of thing to find out. So I could find out

1140
01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:52,200
Speaker 4: what was going on, and I continue to be in

1141
01:02:52,200 --> 01:02:56,479
Speaker 4: contact with him virtually daily up into October ninety four.

1142
01:02:57,480 --> 01:03:01,040
Speaker 4: I had an argument Andrew just recently about this whole

1143
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:05,840
Speaker 4: thinge Andrew was the point of contract for the lenge,

1144
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:08,440
Speaker 4: and I never listened to it.

1145
01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:11,800
Speaker 9: She thought that she was doing the right thing, but

1146
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:14,840
Speaker 9: in the end I perceived that she was just being

1147
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 9: led for every bit of information or any thought that

1148
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:21,040
Speaker 9: the family you're thinking, and that gave him a means

1149
01:03:21,040 --> 01:03:23,720
Speaker 9: and a way to be able to explain things away constantly.

1150
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:27,400
Speaker 9: I think that was quite detrimental to the early investigation.

1151
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:32,800
Speaker 1: And he also had some breaking news in this most

1152
01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:35,200
Speaker 1: recent conversation I had with him.

1153
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:43,080
Speaker 9: Got an email response from the coroner saying, what acknowledging correctly,

1154
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:47,400
Speaker 9: that's actually addressed to mister Andrew Reid and not nobody,

1155
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:51,440
Speaker 9: and just acknowledging the receipt of the letter on the

1156
01:03:51,480 --> 01:03:56,600
Speaker 9: fifth acknowledgement of the request and then just goes on

1157
01:03:56,680 --> 01:04:01,120
Speaker 9: to say it or be considered in Duke calls upon

1158
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:05,840
Speaker 9: the completion of the current investigation.

1159
01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:10,920
Speaker 1: Andy's detailed letter to the State Coroner Teresa O'Sullivan, was

1160
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:14,600
Speaker 1: written in the first week of December twenty twenty four.

1161
01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:19,000
Speaker 1: That's the letter in which Andy described the new evidence

1162
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:23,520
Speaker 1: about Illawong and why he and we believe that the

1163
01:04:23,560 --> 01:04:27,320
Speaker 1: state coroner should use her powers to order a search

1164
01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:30,320
Speaker 1: beneath the concrete of the existing house there.

1165
01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:33,560
Speaker 2: Now Andy has got a proper reply.

1166
01:04:34,440 --> 01:04:37,960
Speaker 1: He would have preferred a decision, but Andy has become

1167
01:04:38,040 --> 01:04:42,800
Speaker 1: conditioned to what seems like inertia and even indifference in

1168
01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:48,960
Speaker 1: the agencies and departments funded to investigate unsolved murders. He

1169
01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:51,880
Speaker 1: is grateful now for the smallest wins.

1170
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:56,520
Speaker 9: It's got me correctly named. It's just been sent from

1171
01:04:56,520 --> 01:05:02,760
Speaker 9: the Coroner's office, correctly signed off by a corannial level employee,

1172
01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:04,760
Speaker 9: not to resure Solomon.

1173
01:05:04,960 --> 01:05:06,080
Speaker 2: How do you feel about that?

1174
01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:09,920
Speaker 9: At least it's something formal which I'm plays with.

1175
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:11,640
Speaker 2: We're heading in the right direction.

1176
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:14,520
Speaker 9: They're taking it seriously, but we know how slight some

1177
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:15,439
Speaker 9: of these worlds train.

1178
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:18,440
Speaker 2: You're very patient, man, Andy. I don't think I could

1179
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:19,120
Speaker 2: be as patient.

1180
01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:22,720
Speaker 9: No, I'm not really, but anyway, it just plays on

1181
01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:23,640
Speaker 9: your mind so much.

1182
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:26,560
Speaker 2: Sleep poorly, always.

1183
01:05:26,120 --> 01:05:28,000
Speaker 9: Trussing a turn and thinking things through.

1184
01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:31,840
Speaker 1: We do not know what is going on behind the

1185
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:37,560
Speaker 1: scenes in the restarted investigation by the Police Unsolved Homicide Unit,

1186
01:05:38,280 --> 01:05:41,160
Speaker 1: but Andy is hopeful that as far as actions by

1187
01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:45,120
Speaker 1: the coroner and police are concerned, he will see things

1188
01:05:45,160 --> 01:05:46,320
Speaker 1: start moving.

1189
01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:48,680
Speaker 9: A little bit quicker than the Star's Place that seems

1190
01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:49,880
Speaker 9: to be so fun.

1191
01:06:03,960 --> 01:06:08,040
Speaker 1: Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as

1192
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:12,840
Speaker 1: a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information

1193
01:06:13,080 --> 01:06:16,840
Speaker 1: which may help solve this cold case, please contact me

1194
01:06:17,040 --> 01:06:23,360
Speaker 1: confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.

1195
01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:27,000
Speaker 1: You can read more about this case and see a

1196
01:06:27,120 --> 01:06:31,600
Speaker 1: range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bronwyn

1197
01:06:31,640 --> 01:06:37,800
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.

1198
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:42,960
Speaker 1: The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey,

1199
01:06:43,080 --> 01:06:49,000
Speaker 1: Kristin Amier, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns,

1200
01:06:49,320 --> 01:06:53,720
Speaker 1: Liam Mendez, Sean Callen and Matthew Condon and David Murray,

1201
01:06:53,960 --> 01:06:58,200
Speaker 1: with assistance from Isaac Iron's. Audio production for this podcast

1202
01:06:58,240 --> 01:07:02,360
Speaker 1: series is by Wasabi w Audio and original theme music

1203
01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:06,600
Speaker 1: by Slade Gibson. We have been assisted by Madison Walsh,

1204
01:07:06,640 --> 01:07:10,360
Speaker 1: a relation of Bromwin Winfield. We can only do this

1205
01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:13,800
Speaker 1: kind of journalism with the support of our subscribers and

1206
01:07:13,880 --> 01:07:16,280
Speaker 1: our major sponsors like Harvey Norman.

1207
01:07:17,080 --> 01:07:17,920
Speaker 2: For all of our.

1208
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:23,200
Speaker 1: Exclusive stories, videos, maps, timelines and documents about this podcast

1209
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:27,120
Speaker 1: and other podcasts, including The Teacher's Pet, The Teachers Trial,

1210
01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:31,880
Speaker 1: The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy's Story, Shandy's Legacy and The Night Driver.

1211
01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:40,400
Speaker 1: Go to the Australian dot com dot au and subscribe