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Speaker 1: Thanks for downloading the show. This is Better than Yesterday.

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Speaker 1: Useful tools and useful conversations to help make your day

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Speaker 1: to day better than yesterday. Every episode since twenty thirteen.

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Speaker 1: Big question for you right here? What if I told

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Speaker 1: you that the secret to happiness was to pay more

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Speaker 1: attention to the times when life absolutely sucks? Hmm, interesting,

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Speaker 1: isn't it. Yeah. I'll get to the answer to that

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Speaker 1: question in a second, because how can it make sense?

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Speaker 1: Everything I scroll past just brates me with a message

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Speaker 1: about finding happiness or treating myself, pushing me to constantly

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Speaker 1: seek out the good at all costs. See the good

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Speaker 1: in the world. But look, it's absolutely important to discover

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Speaker 1: and nurture those things that make life pleasurable, even tolerable. However,

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Speaker 1: my guest today argues that we need to also sit

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Speaker 1: with and even embrace misery to truly appreciate what makes

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Speaker 1: life great. Am And Evans is my guest today, a

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Speaker 1: prolific author with fifteen books to his name. He's written

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Speaker 1: about sport, crime, urban legends, great Aussie scandals, and his

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Speaker 1: latest book challenges the notion that life should always be good, happy,

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Speaker 1: and sparkly, and suggests that negative emotions have been historically

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Speaker 1: very important and indeed still are today. Amon unpacks the

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Speaker 1: fantasy we've been sold over the years that happiness is

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Speaker 1: something you can achieve, you could lock in and never lose,

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Speaker 1: and argues that ironically, chasing happiness might actually be what

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Speaker 1: is making us miserable. Now, don't worry. Amon is hilarious

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Speaker 1: and delivers the message coded in a glove of laughter

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Speaker 1: and delicious irony, so he's able to get the idea

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Speaker 1: across incredibly well.

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Speaker 2: He's even written a book about.

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Speaker 1: It, The Importance of being Miserable, which, now I think

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Speaker 1: about it, the title of the book might just be

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Speaker 1: the closest thing that's ever come to help me understanding

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Speaker 1: why Morrissey exists. If you've ever felt not feeling good

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Speaker 1: in a world that tells you you should be nothing

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Speaker 1: but excellent, this conversation is for you. Ayman and I

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Speaker 1: caught up on a video call from his house in Melbourne.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, Amen, how are you? I?

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Speaker 3: Good morning to you, sir. I am well.

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Speaker 2: People listen to these podcasts.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I've been warning this podcast for twelve years now,

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Speaker 1: and people listen to stuff from twenty thirteen, People listening

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Speaker 1: to stuff from years ago and so I always think

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Speaker 1: it's important to put a little timestamp on where we are.

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Speaker 1: So I might ask you to do this, considering you're

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Speaker 1: the one who's far better at summing up moments of

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Speaker 1: Australian culture than me. If you were to put a

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Speaker 1: time stamp on this day, which is the sixteenth of

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Speaker 1: December twenty twenty five, what would you put on this day?

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Speaker 2: What's going on in the country right now?

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Speaker 3: I think what's going on in the country right now,

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Speaker 3: You know, it's much the same as what's going on

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Speaker 3: in the Western world right now, which is sort of

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Speaker 3: deep and profound weirdness. We're sort of not just talking

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Speaker 3: about this hour or this day, or this week or

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Speaker 3: this year, but frankly talking about this sort of century

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Speaker 3: where we're living at a time that's wildly out of

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Speaker 3: step with like ninety nine point nine percent of human

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Speaker 3: existence when it comes to what we expect from life

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Speaker 3: and what we expect from ourself. And I could sort

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Speaker 3: of prescribe those expectations in a hundred different ways that

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Speaker 3: would take one hundred different hours of your podcast and

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Speaker 3: lose every one of your listeners. But I mean the

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Speaker 3: key point now is happiness. I mean, we expect that

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Speaker 3: happiness is achievable. We pursue it and we believe that

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Speaker 3: it can be caught. And this expectation is sort of

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Speaker 3: wildly out of step with ninety nine percent of human existence.

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Speaker 3: Cave Men didn't get up in the morning, sort of

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Speaker 3: expecting the world to cage to their emotional needs. They

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Speaker 3: got through the day without coughing up blood on the

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Speaker 3: whole day. They were doing just fine. And I think

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Speaker 3: that is a thought worth keeping in mind, And it's

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Speaker 3: a yeah, it's a thought that I've explorted my book.

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Speaker 1: Would you say that it's a moment like we're recording

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Speaker 1: this two days after the terrorist attack in Bueno Beach?

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Speaker 1: Would you say it's in moments like this that we

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Speaker 1: are confronted with question of what it means to be

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Speaker 1: Australian personally.

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Speaker 3: I feel Australians is sort of overstated, sort of for

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Speaker 3: good and for ill. But yeah, I would certainly like

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Speaker 3: to believe that Australia is a better and safer and kinder,

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Speaker 3: a more understanding place than sort of what we have

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Speaker 3: seen recently. And I think that by and large it is.

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Speaker 3: I think that we are living in a time and

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Speaker 3: a place that is healthier and wealthier, and more accepting

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Speaker 3: of difference than any other time or place in history.

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Speaker 3: I think, as hard as life can be and is

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Speaker 3: for all sorts of minorities and all sorts of people,

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Speaker 3: in many ways, it's a better time than ever before.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's that is worth keeping in mind,

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Speaker 3: though that's obviously certainly not a reason to not continue

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Speaker 3: to get better still and make sure everyone is safe

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Speaker 3: and everyone is heard, and everyone is accepted and loved.

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Speaker 1: I've been likening the feeling in my body too. I

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Speaker 1: went through a period of gastro a couple of weeks ago.

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Speaker 1: Our eldest she came back from Bali with the souvenir

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Speaker 1: in the form of a pathogen, and like two straight away.

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Speaker 1: So I was fucked, man like. It was a bad one.

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Speaker 1: So I've got this horrible feeling in my body and

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Speaker 1: I am not hungry, and be if I am hungry,

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Speaker 1: I can barely eat. I can rice.

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Speaker 2: Is it right? I want other food? I know why

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Speaker 2: the food is there.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 1: I will be able to eat other food at some point,

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Speaker 1: and I know I will stop going to the toilet

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Speaker 1: every twelve minutes. It will happen. And right now, as

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Speaker 1: my doctor told her eventually to go see the doctor.

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Speaker 1: He said, the worst thing about gastro is you think

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Speaker 1: you're going to die, And the second worst thing is

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Speaker 1: that you think you won't.

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Speaker 2: You know, you're in this.

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Speaker 1: Horrible state which you know is going to pass and

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Speaker 1: will get better. Yet you're still in that horrible state.

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Speaker 1: And as you just mentioned, the feeling and my body

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Speaker 1: thinking about what's been happening less than two kilometers from

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Speaker 1: where I'm sitting talking to you right now, at this happened,

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Speaker 1: and you know those people we know well who were involved,

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Speaker 1: and it is very traumatic for everybody here. I can

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Speaker 1: feel as horror in my body still it's still hanging around.

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Speaker 1: And I also know that if even with this horror, horrific,

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Speaker 1: fucking active, dehumanized barbarism, Australia is still a safer country

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Speaker 1: than it was last week and the week before that,

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Speaker 1: and Australia is a better country to be and than

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Speaker 1: it was a month ago. And if you look at

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Speaker 1: all of the stats, if you look at all the graphs,

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Speaker 1: you know I'm a I think it's important. I got

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Speaker 1: quite turned around by the work of Stephen Pinker when

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Speaker 1: he wrote the book The Better Angels of Our Nature

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Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, and also Hans Rosling's factfulness.

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Speaker 2: In Hans's words, things are bad, but they're getting better.

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Speaker 1: But that's a hard thing to comprehend, you know, because

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Speaker 1: I want, I want this feeling in my body to

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Speaker 1: have a reason to be there. And if you and

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Speaker 1: I sit here on this podcast and say things are

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Speaker 1: better now than they ever have been, even with all

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Speaker 1: this shit that doesn't fit and we don't want to

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Speaker 1: listen to it.

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Speaker 3: It doesn't fit at all. But I mean, I remember,

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Speaker 3: if I can be slightly less highbrow and quote Richard Curtis,

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Speaker 3: the writer of Love actually in Four Weddings and so on,

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Speaker 3: you know, just basically the the purveyor of sort of

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Speaker 3: middle class English smaltz. I mean, he's often sort of

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Speaker 3: attacked for his movies being borderline smug, but you know,

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Speaker 3: bottom line not realistic because they don't portray the sort

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Speaker 3: of the gritten, the grime and oft did.

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Speaker 2: They not watch fucking Blackadder? Are they unaware of Blackatter?

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Speaker 3: But the romantic comedies they don't portray like the GrITT

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Speaker 3: and the grime and you know, the grit urban realism

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Speaker 3: and the guns and the drugs. They portray sort of

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Speaker 3: middle class people being middle class and loving each other.

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Speaker 3: And he was sort of saying, well, people attack me

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Speaker 3: for not sort of presenting realism, but if you think

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Speaker 3: about it, that sort of is realism. I mean, the

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Speaker 3: average Westerner at the very least is more likely to

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Speaker 3: sort of receive a hug and then I love you

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Speaker 3: in the course of their weak than they are to

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Speaker 3: receive a bullet wound. You go to the airport and

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Speaker 3: see sort of people coming home and being embraced by

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Speaker 3: their relatives. Like, the world is full of of love

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Speaker 3: and good things, and it's important to sort of keep

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Speaker 3: them in mind at times like this when obviously you're

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Speaker 3: reminded that the world is also full of horrendous things

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Speaker 3: and sort of hatred and anger and so on. And yeah,

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Speaker 3: life is a balancing act because in the time that

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Speaker 3: we've started, you know, since in the five minutes we've

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Speaker 3: been talking, wha sort of dozens of people have been

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Speaker 3: sort of diagnosed with terminal illnesses or staff to death

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Speaker 3: in a gutter or something like that. And you could

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Speaker 3: exist in a world where you sort of feel for

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Speaker 3: all of them at all times, but you know, you

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Speaker 3: could not possibly function in that world, and so on

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Speaker 3: some level you do have to focus on the fact

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Speaker 3: that the world was full of happy people too, and

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Speaker 3: obviously getting that balance right and that formula right is

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Speaker 3: the task of a lifetime, and no one ever quite

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Speaker 3: nails it well.

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Speaker 1: I've been through periods of catastrophic depression aim on that

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Speaker 1: evolved quite serious pharmaceutical intervention, and it's very hard working,

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Speaker 1: very clever doctors who helped me a lot. But I

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Speaker 1: know what it feels like to have a doom filter

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Speaker 1: on every single input, visual, auditory, touch, smells.

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Speaker 2: It's stifling, it's impossible.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things I remember having to comprehend was,

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Speaker 1: right now, even there's feel of destruction and doom in

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Speaker 1: the sky is falling, and the world is closing on

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Speaker 1: me like a trash compactor.

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Speaker 2: In Star Wars.

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Speaker 1: Somewhere somewhere there is a basket full of labrador puppies somewhere,

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Speaker 1: you know, And this feeling and that exists at the

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Speaker 1: same time, and there's as you mentioned, yes, there's people

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Speaker 1: starving in the gutter. And but like in the nine

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Speaker 1: eight minutes that we've been talking, babies have been born,

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Speaker 1: people have had the greatest day of their lives, and

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Speaker 1: you mentioned that in the book, which I think is interesting.

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Speaker 1: This idea that, oh, happiness is a thing we can

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Speaker 1: get and never have to let go of. That is

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Speaker 1: a very dangerous idea that we've been sold. Particularly happiness

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Speaker 1: is a thing that we can get and never let

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Speaker 1: go of.

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Speaker 2: If you buy this big TV.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, I mean, as I was saying, this is

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Speaker 3: the idea that happiness is a commodity or a project

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Speaker 3: or a KPI. Just the idea that it is a

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Speaker 3: thing that can be achieved as long as you get

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Speaker 3: the right job, or marry the right person, or think

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Speaker 3: the right thoughts or follow the right program. This is

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Speaker 3: a strange idea that sense, and very modern idea that

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Speaker 3: does essentially have its roots in capitalism and advertising. One

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Speaker 3: hundred years ago would never have occurred to anyone that

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Speaker 3: happiness would be theirs if they just got a fancy

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Speaker 3: new suit or a sparkling new sort of penny farthing.

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Speaker 3: But advertisers sort of beat that sort of idea sort

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Speaker 3: of into all of us. On some level, we've all

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Speaker 3: accepted it to this day, even if you sort of

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Speaker 3: reject the sort of consumers trappings of life, even if

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Speaker 3: you say Oh no, I have no interest in a

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Speaker 3: gold watch. You still have drunk the basic kool aid,

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Speaker 3: which is the idea that you know, happiness can be

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Speaker 3: achieved so long as you as you do the right thing.

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Speaker 3: Happiness is a place that one can travel to with

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Speaker 3: the right map. And it's not really so it's happiness

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Speaker 3: doesn't work that way, And trying to achieve permanent happiness

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Speaker 3: is like trying to sort of nail jelly to a wall.

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Speaker 3: It's just a it's a futile enterprise.

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Speaker 1: You're right about this wonderfully when you talk about the

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Speaker 1: idea of contrast, and I'm wondering if you could kind

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Speaker 1: of explain it, because I can't if I've eaten like

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Speaker 1: last night. My wife's an amazing cook. She's from Fiji.

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Speaker 1: She makes the most incredible courage. I'm vegan, and Celia,

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Speaker 1: I don't even know how I'm standing, but she can

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Speaker 1: create these unbelievable curries full of legumes and flavor and stuff,

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Speaker 1: and I can eat to a point where this incredible food,

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Speaker 1: which is the greatest food I've ever had. If I

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Speaker 1: put one more bite in me, my stomach will go

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Speaker 1: ah no, and just I'll puke it up. There's a

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Speaker 1: point where we can have well, I can't have any more,

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Speaker 1: all right. I need to feel hungry to enjoy this food.

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Speaker 1: But then I also have to let this food be

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Speaker 1: in me for a while if I want to feel

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Speaker 1: hungry again to enjoy this food. Contrast is such an

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Speaker 1: important part of us in our life, in anything.

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Speaker 2: What role does contrast play and happiness?

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean it's everything.

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Speaker 2: I mean.

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Speaker 3: Imagine you're grown up in Antarctica. You've never seen a jumper,

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Speaker 3: you've never seen a fire, you've never huddled around a dimplex. Essentially,

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Speaker 3: you've been freezing from the word go, and chances are

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Speaker 3: you'll at least death pretty soon. Now imagine being asked

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Speaker 3: to define the word hot. You couldn't because yeah, you

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Speaker 3: don't know what that is. And the brain only understands

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Speaker 3: things through opposites. You can only sort of understand what

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Speaker 3: light is because you have darkness. You can only mountains

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Speaker 3: only exist because you have valleys. Light only exists because

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Speaker 3: you have dark And sort of emotions work the same way,

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Speaker 3: like joy only registers as pleasure because you've just experienced

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Speaker 3: some sort of pain. You know, sunshine is great when

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Speaker 3: you've had a long, dark day.

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Speaker 2: Of rain.

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Speaker 3: A warm bed is great after you've you know, had

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Speaker 3: a long ruling hike. Champagne is glorious if you've been

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Speaker 3: drinking cast wine. But if you have champagne every day,

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Speaker 3: if you have even your wife's glorious curry every day,

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Speaker 3: it soon starts to get a bit boring. It soon

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Speaker 3: starts to get a bit sort of blah. But basically,

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Speaker 3: our brain is designed to what to want what we

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Speaker 3: don't have, and to sort of normalize what we do.

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Speaker 3: The extraordinary will quickly become ordinary. You're buying you house,

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Speaker 3: eventually you think, oh, we knows are a bit small

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Speaker 3: or but yeah, it's just a bit crappy. You get

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Speaker 3: an exciting new job, it's like, oh god, these zoom

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Speaker 3: meetings are tedious. You know. You you get a you know,

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Speaker 3: incredibly sexy, exciting new partner, and then you know, you're

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Speaker 3: look at how she stacks the dishwasher and you get annoyed.

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Speaker 1: You're that guy, Oh my god, we should never go

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Speaker 1: out because my wife is the dishwasher overseer.

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Speaker 2: I've had to learn hard.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, but essentially success doesn't satisfy. It just sort

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Speaker 3: of moves the goalposts, Like you know, Napoleon conquers Europe

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Speaker 3: and that's not enough. He has to go and invade Russia.

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Speaker 3: Brad Pitt is the world's biggest movie star, incredible box office,

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Speaker 3: but he probably lies at lake at night thinking about

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Speaker 3: all the oscars he hasn't won. Elon Musk is the

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Speaker 3: world's richest person, but he also needs to be like

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Speaker 3: the world's worst person. It's like, this is why sort

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Speaker 3: of billionaires work sort of twenty hour days. It's because enough.

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Speaker 3: There is never enough, and enough can't be enough.

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Speaker 1: But you mentioned that we're not designed for it. Because

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Speaker 1: and dopamine plays a huge role in all of this.

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Speaker 1: It is colloquial, you know, and as the molecule of more.

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Speaker 1: And if you have anything that is basically out of

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Speaker 1: your reach, dopamine is involved and you're getting it.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: So and the what you mentioned before, the it's called

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Speaker 1: hedonic habituation.

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Speaker 2: That is that all these things exist evolutionarily. Okay.

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Speaker 1: So here we are in this house. But I know

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Speaker 1: that my genes will not go any further than this

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Speaker 1: if I don't have more calories here in my little hut,

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Speaker 1: and if I don't have more offspring, and if I

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Speaker 1: don't have more land to farm more or more hunting

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Speaker 1: land to get more animals to feed my people. So

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Speaker 1: my people are the people that succeed. We are we

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Speaker 1: are wired to be in a state of discomfort when

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Speaker 1: we don't have enough, because until farming, we never had enough,

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Speaker 1: and our day was going to get enough to survive. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and this is why GLP one drugs are going through

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Speaker 1: the roof, because they turn that thing down. And it's

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Speaker 1: really interesting, but it's hard to accept though.

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Speaker 3: Here we are.

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Speaker 1: We've invented, you know, I don't know, fridge magnets. We've

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Speaker 1: fucking invented fridges. We can do anything where humans nowhere

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Speaker 1: animals designed for an environment of scarcity, and when we

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Speaker 1: put in an environment of abundance, we now need a

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Speaker 1: mobility scooter.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely. About evolution, it's like we're descended from sort

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Speaker 3: of twitchy, anxious, neurotic sort of strivers. We're descended from

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Speaker 3: the people who didn't stop to spell the roses. We're

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Speaker 3: descended from the people who checked that the rose bushers

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Speaker 3: weren't hiding a wolf. There were probably sort of humans

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Speaker 3: who lay around all day and gaze at the sunset

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Speaker 3: and contemplated sort of the magic of existence. But they

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Speaker 3: weren't the ones storing food, they weren't the ones migrating

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Speaker 3: ahead of the glacier, and they certainly weren't the ones

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Speaker 3: sort of surviving long enough to reproduce our ancestors. And yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's a tough sort of pill to swallow. But nature

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Speaker 3: does not want us to be happy. Nature wants us

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Speaker 3: to survive.

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Speaker 2: It's true, it's true. So what do we do about it? Anyone?

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you know the last time you bought a

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Speaker 1: new car, you were thrilled. Hey, I've got this new

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Speaker 1: car against who I want to go. It's reliable, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't break down, it's far more efficient. I can take

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Speaker 1: on my shit everywhere. What what did you do when

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Speaker 1: you're shining? New car? Now just became a metal box

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Speaker 1: with cup holders? Like, how do we get around that?

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Speaker 3: I think? I mean, I'm not sort of suggesting that

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Speaker 3: people don't have goals. It's just where we suffer is

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Speaker 3: from sort of imagining. That is, if we don't suffer

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Speaker 3: from one a new car, we suffer from the idea

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Speaker 3: that a new car will make us happy and there

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Speaker 3: is something wrong if it doesn't. We suffer from the

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Speaker 3: idea that Misery is a problem to be fixed, you know,

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Speaker 3: a glitch to be solved. It's a sign that the

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Speaker 3: machine is breaking down in some way. And I think

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Speaker 3: it's just vitally important to sort of keep in mind

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Speaker 3: that misery is not a flaw in the machine. Misery

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Speaker 3: is part of the machine. It's a vital cog. It's

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Speaker 3: having these lows is what leads to great highs. Misery

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Speaker 3: is and disappointment and anxiety and fear and so on

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Speaker 3: and so forth. These these can give color and texture

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Speaker 3: and sort of depth to life. There's all sorts of

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Speaker 3: wonderful things that sort of come with being miserable. And

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Speaker 3: even if they don't, And I mean, if I can

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Speaker 3: hit you with an analogy, is it two in the

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Speaker 3: early in the morning for an analogy?

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Speaker 2: Mate, I've got a six year old.

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Speaker 1: I'm so caffeinated, and I exist on a cocktail of

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Speaker 1: polypharmaceutical So not your socks off, man, I'm firing on

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Speaker 1: all cylinders.

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Speaker 2: This is this is Marte. Because it wasn't enough coffee

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Speaker 2: this morning.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think misery and I distinguished misery from sort

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Speaker 3: of full blown sort of you know, mental illness, depression,

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Speaker 3: just ordinary every day sort of misery is is kind

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Speaker 3: of it's like the rain. It's no one likes the rain,

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Speaker 3: No one wants the rain. It's you know, it's cold,

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Speaker 3: it's inconvenient, it gets mud on your shoes and can

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Speaker 3: spoil a picnic and so on. But we don't blame

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Speaker 3: ourselves for the rain. We don't blame our friends or

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Speaker 3: our job or our partner for the rain. We don't

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Speaker 3: yell at the sky, we don't try and throw rain

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Speaker 3: back into the sky. We just sort of grab an

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Speaker 3: umbrella and get on with our day. And we know

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Speaker 3: that unless it's a cyclic or a hurricane or wherever

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Speaker 3: you want to go with that mental illness analogy, it's

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Speaker 3: going to go, it's going to go. And so we

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Speaker 3: just sort of waited out. And I think that's sort

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Speaker 3: of how we need to treat a lot of the

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Speaker 3: flat periods or the bad periods in our life. And

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Speaker 3: another thing worth keeping in mind is that without rain,

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Speaker 3: life would be a desert. Rain is what is what

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Speaker 3: gives us crops and flowers and beautiful fruits and being

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Speaker 3: down flashing toilets.

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Speaker 2: Sir, I will take a flashing toilet. I will take

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Speaker 2: modern plumbing.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, misery has all sorts of beautiful fruits. Misery

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Speaker 3: creates great art. Misery makes you kinder. Misery makes you

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Speaker 3: sort of sharper. Misery makes you more sort of depreciative.

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Speaker 3: I mean, there's like we all know someone, you know,

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Speaker 3: a smooth, sort of blemish free life tends to produce

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Speaker 3: a fairly dull human being, and you know, really he

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Speaker 3: wants to be one of them.

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Speaker 1: What would you say to people who I mean, I understand.

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Speaker 1: I made a documentary about pain, chronic and persistent pain,

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Speaker 1: and we talked a bit about our relationship to pain

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Speaker 1: and what we're taught as a kid about this sensation.

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Speaker 1: You know, if it's if it's so bad that your

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Speaker 1: parents will run from across the house, you know, they'll

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Speaker 1: bring you a small piece of plastic with a bit

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Speaker 1: of gauze in it and stick it somewhere. If it's

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Speaker 1: bad enough, a car we'll come screaming through your neighborhood

402
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Speaker 1: with lights and trance. If it's bad enough, a helicopter

403
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Speaker 1: will land next to you and take you to a

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Speaker 1: full building who's full of people whose only job is

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Speaker 1: to make this sensation stop. We are kind of we

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Speaker 1: brought up to fear this sensation, and therefore we can

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Speaker 1: catastrophize it and make it a lot worse. Yet, it

408
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 1: is a very important sensation, and it is something that

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Speaker 1: we need because without the absence of pain or discomfort,

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Speaker 1: there is no comfort. We did this whole test with

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Speaker 1: a psychologist and involved in oz bath and a chile

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Speaker 1: It was exciting.

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Speaker 2: We do need sadness.

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Speaker 1: We do need to use misery, which is a fairly

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Speaker 1: decent form of sadness and a lingering one. But and

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Speaker 1: I'm not talking about the stuff that never goes away.

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Speaker 1: We're not talking about what I mentioned earlier. These things

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Speaker 1: have a lot of purpose. What would you say to people?

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know you dabble in philosophy, It could

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Speaker 1: be said, what would you say to people about what

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Speaker 1: to do with these feelings of misery and how they

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Speaker 1: might frame them and what they might use them for.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think the research shows that the happiest people

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Speaker 3: are not people who never have down periods. The happiest

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Speaker 3: people are people who see their down periods as useful

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Speaker 3: and temporary and instructive. What I would say is, Okay,

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Speaker 3: we all imagine, like you just had a care You've

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Speaker 3: got kids here, I've got kids, and you say to people,

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Speaker 3: may care if they're an architecture or accountant or a

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Speaker 3: rock star or whatever. I just want them to be happy.

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Speaker 3: I don't care if they're a boy or a girl,

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Speaker 3: or gay orustraight order whatever. I just want to be happy.

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Speaker 3: And that's actually not true, because if you just wanted

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Speaker 3: them to be happy, you could theoretically hook your newborn

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Speaker 3: baby up to a little sort of heroin drip. And

436
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,880
Speaker 3: so they're stuck there their whole life, in this wriggling,

437
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:35,120
Speaker 3: ecstatic state of bliss, never truly opening their eyes, never

438
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 3: learning to walk or talk or going out there into

439
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 3: the world, but having floods of dopamine and serotonin and

440
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,439
Speaker 3: whatever else coursing through their system in a state of riggly,

441
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 3: ecstatic bliss attached to tubes for eighty odd years. That

442
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 3: is theoretically possible, but that is clearly not something anyone

443
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 3: would want for their kid. That is clearly the son

444
00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 3: of horror film. Because yes, they would never be bullied,

445
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,400
Speaker 3: they would never get pimples, they would never get detention,

446
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,400
Speaker 3: they would never get rejection, they would never break their

447
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:09,719
Speaker 3: arm or graze their knee, or they would never go

448
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 3: through all the things that all the features of life

449
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:18,159
Speaker 3: that we all find painful, but I wouldn't really be

450
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,679
Speaker 3: living at all. Like, what you want is a full life,

451
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 3: what you want is a rich life. What you want

452
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 3: is a life that has texture and meaning. Like who

453
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,959
Speaker 3: wants to see a movie where people start out happy

454
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 3: and then they remain happy and then at the end

455
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 3: of the movie they're happy, Like, that's a boring movie.

456
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,439
Speaker 3: That would be a boring life. And I would just

457
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 3: encourage people who do. Sort of there's no way to

458
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 3: fend off misery. It's going to find you come what may,

459
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 3: because sadness is not sort of evidence you're failing at life.

460
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 3: It's evidence that you're alive. In the first place, to

461
00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 3: be breathing and conscious is to have episodes of anxiet

462
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 3: and boredom and fear and dread and insecurity and whatever else.

463
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 3: And provided this is not at a sort of serious,

464
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 3: sort of pathological level, which of course requires serious pathological attention,

465
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 3: my advice is to sort of do your best to

466
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 3: him embrace it.

467
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: More with Aimon in a moment, including his thoughts on

468
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,440
Speaker 1: parenting in the modern world, and I'll put a link

469
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 1: in the show notes to his book The Importance of

470
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 1: being miserable. If there's one thing that can help when

471
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,199
Speaker 1: you're dealing with things that are less than excellent, it

472
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 1: is hearing stories of other people who have also gone

473
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 1: through or going through things that are less than excellent,

474
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: that relate to you. And that, my friends, is where

475
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 1: story Club comes in. Every couple of weeks, live on

476
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 1: stage in Sydney, me and five other storytellers sit in

477
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 1: a big chair with a big storybook and tell a

478
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 1: true story about when things went quite badly. It's mortifying,

479
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 1: it's cringe worthy, it's incredibly liberating. And next show is

480
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: on the fifteenth of February. Our theme is so Roman Mantick.

481
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 1: We have amazing storytellers Duncan Fellows, alex Lee Ruby T's

482
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,360
Speaker 1: though we're not on Lodge, and legendary photojournalist Mike Bauers

483
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,160
Speaker 1: All Joiners. He can get tickets in the show notes.

484
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 1: There's also a link to the YouTube page where you

485
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 1: can see other storytellers tell their tales. We'll be back

486
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 1: with am on in just a moment.

487
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 2: You mentioned parenting in your book. If your child.

488
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 1: Isn't smiling, you're doing it wrong, which is such a

489
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: horrible I read the other day that there's a recommendation

490
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 1: that new mothers don't look at Instagram for the first

491
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 1: six weeks because there's research show that it can contribute

492
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: fairly negatively to their their headspace and also their quality

493
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 1: of life for the child. You know, you're also right

494
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 1: then if your child isn't always happy, that there's evidence

495
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 1: that somewhere someone parented them wrong. As as as a parent,

496
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 1: when your child isn't smiling, it's not fun.

497
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 2: And how do you handle those moments?

498
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 3: I mean obviously like we're sorrow. It's yeah, I preach

499
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:18,679
Speaker 3: a lot more than I practiced these things, But I

500
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 3: think a child who was permanently sort of loving everything

501
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,120
Speaker 3: would grow up to be a child that a bit

502
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 3: like you know Udei Hussein or Kim Jong Uden just

503
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 3: so about child, but you know it was sort of

504
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 3: slightly sociopathic. I mean, we need like pain and suffering

505
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 3: a teacher. They help us to relate.

506
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 1: Man Kim Jong Owen once played a round of golf

507
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 1: and he scored a hole in one eighteen times in

508
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: a row.

509
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 2: That's solid.

510
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 3: He is the exception to do a cast.

511
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 2: That's pretty good enough.

512
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 3: Yes, I'm sorry, I shouldn't wrong. The great man and.

513
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: Then I think he invented a hamburger, Like, there's no

514
00:28:58,120 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: fucking unbelievable shit.

515
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 3: Well, he did have a model parent as well, so

516
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 3: that's it's so scary.

517
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 2: But you're right, it's the antithesis of it.

518
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 1: And you see it sometimes, you know, you see it

519
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: with other parents, and I understand it. I don't agree

520
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 1: with it, but I get it. You want your kid

521
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: to like you. You want them to have what they need.

522
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 1: You want them to be particular if you had a

523
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 1: hard upbringing, you want them to have the things you

524
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: never had.

525
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 2: But what kind of adult does that turn them into.

526
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 1: It's very difficult to do to have your kid not

527
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: say fuck you, dad, and like, you know, it happens.

528
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 1: I've said it, it said to me. But it is

529
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: a part of making sure they've become a good adult.

530
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 3: Well yeah, I mean I look at people like sort

531
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 3: of Caligula and Nero who were basically like literally treat

532
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,719
Speaker 3: it as living gods, you know, from the moment of birth,

533
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 3: and I think it's fair to say they didn't turn

534
00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 3: out well. I think it's good for a child to

535
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 3: to be miserable sometimes, just as it's good for us

536
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 3: because without that, you know, there's a solid chance you'll

537
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 3: be a sociopath. And yeah, again, simply you won't be

538
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 3: appreciative if you never have to earn a bit of

539
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 3: pocket money. You'll never appreciate a fancy meal, if you've

540
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 3: never been rejected, you won't sort of appreciate what it

541
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 3: is to finally end up with a good partner. You

542
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 3: can't sort of numb sadness without numbing joy, I think

543
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 3: is the fundamental message in my book. And I want

544
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 3: my children to be joyful. I mean, there's a famous

545
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 3: Socrates quote, no absolutely John Street Mill quote. But it's

546
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 3: better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a pig satisfied. It's

547
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 3: better to have a full and rich life with high

548
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 3: highs and low lows and twists and turns and booby

549
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 3: traps that it is to just sort of, you know,

550
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,719
Speaker 3: sit in the field, chewing card and sort of gazing

551
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 3: blankly at a fence.

552
00:30:54,960 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: So when these feelings show up, the antithesis of happiness, because,

553
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 1: as you mentioned earlier, none of the public messaging around

554
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 1: the consumer culture we live in has anything to do

555
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: with not being thrilled that I just bought this thing

556
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 1: or signed up to this insurance company or attended this

557
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 1: football match or gambled responsibly or whatever.

558
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 2: We never see any of their messaging or what to

559
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 2: do with.

560
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 1: The lull, with the low, with the difficulty. What would

561
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 1: you say, like, what do you say to your kids

562
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 1: when they have that feeling, when they have the disappointment

563
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 1: we didn't win the game.

564
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 2: I didn't get the thing I wanted for Christmas?

565
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: When I didn't you know, I can't watch another episode

566
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: of Power Rangers. You know, Horizons the Pokemon dirt.

567
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 2: It's a great theme song, but fuck, I've heard it

568
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 2: way too many times.

569
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 3: Well, I think I just stumped the message home. I mean,

570
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 3: not winning the game is a good one really, because

571
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 3: I mean my kids. My boy is like a very

572
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 3: enthusiastic Hawthorn supporter. I think you're up in Sydney, aren't you? Hawthorn? Yeah,

573
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 3: AFL team that has historically been sort of stupidly good.

574
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 3: I've seen something like twelve premierships in my lifetime and

575
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 3: can report that that gets slightly dull. It's if you

576
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 3: win premiership after premiership after if your football team wins

577
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 3: every week, you don't like continue to love football. You

578
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 3: start to take an interest in golf and Again I've

579
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 3: told my kids, like I remember, the Australian cricket team

580
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 3: was like just obnoxiously good throughout the nineties and I

581
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 3: lost all interesting cricket because I couldn't bring myself to

582
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 3: support the other team. But in or did I truly

583
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 3: care if these guys just you know, won their twelve

584
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 3: ashes or something. And it's just it all became sort

585
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 3: of meaningless. And again that is what I tell my kids.

586
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 3: It's you know, you've got to have these downtimes in

587
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 3: order to have uptimes. I mean, constant fun would not

588
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 3: be fun, and joy would not be joyful, Constant excitement

589
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 3: would not be exciting, and constant fulfillment is not that fulfilling.

590
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 3: It's all part of the rich tapestry. So many threads,

591
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 3: so many threads off.

592
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 2: What role?

593
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 1: And this is an important thing in my life. But

594
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 1: I'm interested to know what would you say to people

595
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: about humility and why it's important to embrace humility.

596
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 3: I think that knowing that Elon Musk and Brad Pitt

597
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 3: and Donald Trump and Taylor Swift are lying awake at

598
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 3: night threating about their failures and their inadequacies and so on,

599
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 3: just as much as you are possibly even more. Is

600
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 3: a healthy thing to keep in mind. It's basically, it

601
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 3: doesn't vastly matter sort of you know, how good or

602
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 3: bad you might be at any given thing. It doesn't

603
00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 3: really matter how successful or sort of Disney unsuccessful you

604
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 3: might be in any area of life. You're still going

605
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 3: to feel the same basic range of emotions, and a

606
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 3: lot of those emotions are going to be really sort

607
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 3: of self lacerating. And so I don't feel particularly better

608
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 3: than anyone. I don't feel really worse than anyone, because

609
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 3: I think that all humans are are pretty sort of similar,

610
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 3: and I all humans are sort of prey to fear, worry, insecurity, anxiety, dread, stress,

611
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 3: And I never sort of imagined for a moment that

612
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 3: anyone I'm talking to how they sort of you know,

613
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 3: chisel their their cheekbones and strong their jawline looking at

614
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 3: you hereta and you know, successful successful they have been

615
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,280
Speaker 3: in their life. I wouldn't I wouldn't cross my mind

616
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 3: for a moment that you're not fretting about X y

617
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 3: Z just just as intensely as I might be, or

618
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 3: Joe Blobs.

619
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: My day is just a just background noise of all

620
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: of that and a lot of cognitive loan actually is

621
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 1: taken and just putting it to one side. It used

622
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: to rule my life. But it's a bit how at

623
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 1: what point were you in your career, because you're right

624
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 1: about the hedonic treadmill, and you know, it's a system

625
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 1: that has lifted communities all over the world out of

626
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 1: the kind of not necessarily caveman as we spoke about earlier,

627
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 1: but you know, kind of poverty and life expectancy and

628
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 1: you know, very limited opportunities in life. The capitalism isn't

629
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:29,919
Speaker 1: all bad, it's not all good, but it has done

630
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 1: a lot for helping a lot more people have a

631
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 1: much better, more wonderfully, fulfilling and healthy long life where

632
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: they can contribute meaningfully to others and a lot of

633
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,359
Speaker 1: innovation as well as well as all of the very

634
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 1: rich people that possibly are taking everything. So there's also that.

635
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 1: But part of this system is gooseful for our community.

636
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 1: But part of this system is a bit detrimental and

637
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 1: that it does set this up, It does set up

638
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 1: this what we've come to now see in Australia, it's

639
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: a broken promise of oh, you do this thing at school,

640
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 1: then perhaps you do this thing at or you go

641
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 1: do this thing at work, you do it for long enough,

642
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 1: you get to buy one of these things, you get

643
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 1: to live in it, and at the end of it

644
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 1: you get to sell it and you get to then

645
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,359
Speaker 1: just chill and play golf for twenty years. That is

646
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 1: not true anymore. It was for this wonderful generation that

647
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 1: got the use of it. Like fucking amazing, what a dream.

648
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 1: But it's not true. Right now, where were you in

649
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 1: your journey from school to now where you kind of

650
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 1: realize this might not be what you'd been promised?

651
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,240
Speaker 3: I thought, disclosure. I think I was a fairly pampered kid,

652
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 3: like you know, middle solid, upper middle classes, so I

653
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:39,800
Speaker 3: was never sort of as angsty about that sort of

654
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 3: stuff in it sort of you know, lamentedly sort of

655
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 3: smug way. But yeah, certainly I'm not driving your Ferrari

656
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 3: these days. Yeah, the life of the writer is lots,

657
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 3: is not great. But I mean I don't really waste time,

658
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 3: well not waste time. I don't think about that a lot,

659
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 3: because the thought that sort of guides me is that,

660
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:05,800
Speaker 3: you know, the average working class sort of Australian today

661
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 3: is living a life that Cleopatra, Julius Caesar Henry Date

662
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 3: could never have dreamed of like we have, you know, sushi, Internet,

663
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 3: sort of vacuum cleaners, you know, waterpowres we have, we

664
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 3: have penicillin, we have we have plays, trains and automobiles.

665
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 3: I mean, we just it's it's extraordinary. And yet we

666
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 3: feel poor because we're not as wealthy as someone with

667
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 3: a three bedroom house living and who's paid off their mortgage.

668
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 3: And yes, of course that that is true, but all

669
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 3: of us in Australia are basically in the top ninety

670
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,840
Speaker 3: nine point nine percent of humans that have ever lived

671
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 3: when it comes to sort of wealth and comfort and

672
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 3: luxury and safety, and you know, and if you're if kid,

673
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 3: gay or black, or mentally ill or a woman or disabled,

674
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 3: there's never Yes, life is still hideous in all sorts

675
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 3: of ways, and I would not downplay for a second,

676
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 3: but there's never been a better time or place to

677
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 3: be alive probably, And so I just see that is

678
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 3: an important thing to keep in mind when asking why

679
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 3: we've never had more reason quote unquote to be happy,

680
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 3: and yet from a perial point of view, and we've

681
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 3: never been more focused on the project of being happy,

682
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 3: as evidenced by things like this podcast and yet in

683
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,840
Speaker 3: all sorts of ways, we have never been more miserable.

684
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 3: And I think what we can conclude from that is

685
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 3: that wealth and comfort and safety are extraordinary luxuries, but

686
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 3: they're also a burden in the sense that they sort

687
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 3: of give us time to reflect on you know, what

688
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 3: the fuck is all this for? Remember that scene in

689
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 3: sort of Castaway, or when Tom Hanks is like contemplating

690
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,359
Speaker 3: the media life, or the scene in the Revenant. Lean

691
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 3: has just been attacked by a bear and he's crawling

692
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,479
Speaker 3: to the wilderness and he's like, what is the meaning

693
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 3: of life? Like, these scenes weren't filmed because people were

694
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:15,840
Speaker 3: focused on that. I'm focused on survival, and I wouldn't

695
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,320
Speaker 3: want to be in that film. I'm quite happy sitting

696
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,399
Speaker 3: at at my comfy desk. But it's not to say

697
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 3: that everything's rosy on this comfy desk. Because Leonardo's life

698
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:26,879
Speaker 3: had a meaning. It was to get through the day

699
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 3: without coughing up blood. How am I going to get

700
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,320
Speaker 3: through my day? I couldn't tell you. Washer I'll report

701
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 3: back in a few hours.

702
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,839
Speaker 2: Generally the answer is more caffeine. That's usually it.

703
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I just think that that's it's just an

704
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 3: important thing to keep in mind to not get to

705
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 3: fixated on the material things, because if you were to

706
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 3: get them, if I was to pay off my mortgage tomorrow,

707
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 3: it's not like the part of my brain that worries

708
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 3: about my more mortgage would just disappear and be replaced

709
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,359
Speaker 3: with contentment and joy. No, that part of my brain

710
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 3: would just worry about something else. And I think that's

711
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 3: the sort of key. We can get fixated about the

712
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:16,399
Speaker 3: things that are making us miserable, and we very much

713
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:20,799
Speaker 3: ought to in all sorts of ways, but we should

714
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,240
Speaker 3: never forget that we're probably going to be miserable about

715
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:28,360
Speaker 3: something else if those problems get solved. And that sounds

716
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 3: like a grim thought, but it can actually become a

717
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 3: comforting one because it can give your life a certain

718
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 3: sort of perspective and you and it can give you

719
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 3: a sense of control over things. The rain will pass.

720
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 3: It's going to get wet and muddy, but it will

721
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 3: go away.

722
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:46,799
Speaker 2: Yeah.

723
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 1: And this is the thing I was going to mention

724
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 1: just then, is that these feelings they when they hit us,

725
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,800
Speaker 1: they feel permanent, they feel personal, and they feel global,

726
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 1: and that's as evolutionary instinct as well as that if

727
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 1: I'm smelling these roses, and you know animal is going

728
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 1: to come out and eat me. Therefore, every time I

729
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 1: ever smell roses ever, it is dangerous. I must avoid

730
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 1: not real it is an evolutionary thing that our know,

731
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 1: a sense of time shrinks, and these things that that

732
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 1: feel bad, we feel this is how it's always going

733
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 1: to be now until the end of time, and we

734
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: can end up making reactionary choices that possibly don't actually

735
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 1: solve a problem, might make it worse, and possibly don't

736
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 1: serve us or the people around us. So in my experience,

737
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 1: it's important in those moments, yes, feel it, but also

738
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:38,400
Speaker 1: recognize that just as quickly as the happiness left you,

739
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 1: the moment you handed the slide back to the local

740
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 1: wet and wildlife, you've done the big thing.

741
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 2: This will leave too. It feels a bit shit right now,

742
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 2: but it will beful.

743
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 3: I mean, there are two things you shouldn't do. One

744
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 3: is get fixated on your misery sort of become like

745
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 3: sort of Mishap Havisham and Greatest Dictations. And she was

746
00:41:57,680 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 3: like dished at the altar, and she spent the rest

747
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 3: of her life in wedding dress, sort of sitting by

748
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,720
Speaker 3: her banquets, sort of with the wedding banquet sort of weeping.

749
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 3: Don't fixate on the misery and associate it with certain

750
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:10,839
Speaker 3: sort of things in your life and so on. But

751
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,359
Speaker 3: also don't ignore it. Don't push it aside because that

752
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,320
Speaker 3: don't pretend it doesn't exist. Don't walk around in the

753
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 3: rain without an umbrelly. There's the classic sort of the

754
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 3: white bear experiment where sort of scientists encouraged a bunch

755
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 3: of people to spend five minutes not thinking about white bears.

756
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 3: They think about white bears all NonStop. I mean, if

757
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 3: you try not to think about your misery, if you

758
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 3: push it down, it's just gonna sort of infester. It's

759
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 3: just going to surface in some distorted form. And so

760
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 3: don't fixate on misery, don't ignore it, just recognize it.

761
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,760
Speaker 3: Treat it as a sort of a slightly annoying neighbor

762
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 3: who's popped by for a chat and is bringing some

763
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 3: a nice bottle of wine. And in the form of lessons,

764
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 3: this will teach you the happiness it will the contrast

765
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:58,760
Speaker 3: it will bring. But you know, don't invite your neighbor

766
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 3: to stay. Don't let them sort of redecorate your house.

767
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 3: Have a chat people like and then get on with

768
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 3: your day.

769
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 2: I would say, like, you just keep cleaning the kitchen.

770
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 2: You just let them talk.

771
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna you sit there and tell me about

772
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 1: how bad it was. I'm just going to keep cleaning

773
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: the kitchen.

774
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 2: And that's that. You know, That's that correct.

775
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 1: You've been a student and a great you know, describe

776
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 1: I guess of Australia and culture and you know, great

777
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 1: moments and great places, Mount Buggery being one of them

778
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 1: for a long time. Now, what kind of Australia do

779
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 1: you I mean, I know, to quite hands wrongly again

780
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 1: he says, beware of straight lines.

781
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 2: But we're clearly moving towards a place.

782
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 1: What kind of Australia do you feel that we're moving

783
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:50,879
Speaker 1: towards the kind of Australia that you want your kids

784
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 1: to grow up in.

785
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:56,760
Speaker 3: I feel where the society and Australia has gotten better

786
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:01,760
Speaker 3: in the time that I've been alive. I mean, the

787
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 3: the casual racism, the casual homophobia, the sexism, that sort

788
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 3: of you know I remember from when I was a kid.

789
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 3: It just doesn't It's just not a thing anymore, at

790
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 3: least in my sort of you know, Ivory Tower.

791
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:17,839
Speaker 1: I hate to break it to you, open Mahatma coach

792
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 1: still out to do in corporate gigs.

793
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I'm sure, but it's it's not a sort

794
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 3: of publicly celebrated sort of thing. I think. I'm quite positive.

795
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 3: I believe in progress. I believe that the world is

796
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 3: becoming a better place. I believe that, you know, nostalgia

797
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 3: is a seductive liar, like we're all sort of programmed

798
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 3: to believe that the world used to be a better place,

799
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 3: that there was a time when politicians were pure, and

800
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 3: music was more soulful, and communities really cared, and celebrities

801
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:54,800
Speaker 3: had class, and children were polite and life just made sense.

802
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 3: And I don't think that's true. I think if you

803
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:02,479
Speaker 3: look through history will always find ancient romans complaining about

804
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 3: the youth of today. You'll you'll it's it's a thing

805
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 3: you'll you'll see. You know, every every generation for thousands

806
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 3: of years has banged one about you know, migrants and

807
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 3: you know whatever else. It's just and how they bring crime,

808
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 3: and it's just and then things sort themselves out. And

809
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 3: I truly believe that the world is getting a bit,

810
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 3: is becoming a better place. Memory is not a documentary.

811
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 3: It's a carefully edited movie with like special effects where

812
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 3: everyone's sort of speaking to a script and wearing makeup.

813
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 3: So yeah, I think Australia right now is as good

814
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 3: as it's ever been. I worry that from the political

815
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:47,720
Speaker 3: point of view, I worry that government is getting smaller

816
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:51,359
Speaker 3: and the free market is getting bigger. I want more

817
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,800
Speaker 3: investment in education and welfare and all that sort of

818
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:59,919
Speaker 3: stuff and health. And I don't fear the phrase nanny state.

819
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,319
Speaker 3: I think we could all do it with a nice

820
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:04,839
Speaker 3: nanny and I wish there was a bit more of that.

821
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 3: I think sort of a bit of sort of your

822
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 3: occasional sort of Peter Dutton and Tony Abbott and Pauline

823
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 3: Hanson to sign. I think we're sort of broadly on

824
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 3: a fairly positive track. I mean, I'm sorry, I just

825
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 3: I feel like I'm using white males smungness as I

826
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 3: say this, and I'm very conscious of that, Like what

827
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 3: ousing sort of straight white males smugness as I say this,

828
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:29,840
Speaker 3: because you know life and me, and therefore I imagine

829
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 3: it must be okay for others.

830
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,839
Speaker 4: That's like, if we ended up qualifying, everything would never

831
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 4: get anything said and I'm taking you on good faith that,

832
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 4: as you mentioned earlier, you are well aware.

833
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,719
Speaker 1: That your life exists in a level of you know,

834
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 1: excellence that many others don't.

835
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,239
Speaker 2: Yet it is not at many others level.

836
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 1: You are speaking of your experience, which is as valid

837
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 1: as anybody else's. It's not to say because your experience exists,

838
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 1: no other experience therefore exists. I'm not accusing you of

839
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 1: this in any way, shape or form. I'm taking you

840
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 1: on a good faith person who understands that the world

841
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:06,399
Speaker 1: that you experience is not the same for everybody, even

842
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 1: in this very country, and overall what you have seen

843
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 1: in your lifetime in this country, things are better.

844
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just I can agree with that, Yeah, I

845
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 3: think just. I mean, essentially, this book in a nutshell

846
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 3: is a call for perspective. It's not a call to

847
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 3: say that the world is perfect. It's not a call

848
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 3: to sort of rest on our laurels in any way,

849
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 3: shape or form. And it's certainly not a call to

850
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 3: not pursue happiness and justice and understanding and peace and

851
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 3: love for all humankind, because I absolutely believe in those things.

852
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 3: But it's good to appreciate where you are, and it's

853
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 3: good to appreciate where you've come from. And I'd much

854
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:53,359
Speaker 3: rather be a random person in Australia today than it's

855
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:58,320
Speaker 3: sort of a medieval peasant with sort of sewing and plowing.

856
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:03,240
Speaker 2: Than a random person in any other country in the world.

857
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:09,320
Speaker 1: I'm not kidding, and I'm not I am well aware

858
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 1: of the flaws of my country.

859
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 2: And yet still, because more than one thing can be true.

860
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:18,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. I mean it's like a relationship. I mean,

861
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 3: no one thinks that their partner is perfect, but they think, well,

862
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 3: there's clearly some worse alternatives out there.

863
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 2: So we're just very briefly.

864
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I'm asking you for a lot here,

865
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 1: but we've sold this idea that happiness is achieved by

866
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 1: buying shit.

867
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 2: In your work.

868
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 1: What have you found to be a sustainable source of

869
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:47,319
Speaker 1: happiness that we can go and access should we need it.

870
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 3: I don't think there is such a thing as a

871
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:52,640
Speaker 3: sustainable source of happiness. I don't think happiness is designed

872
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 3: to be permanent.

873
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 1: I use the wrong word, a reliable source of happiness.

874
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 1: What do you think is a reliable source of happiness?

875
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 3: I mean, this again is being slightly cheesy, but I

876
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 3: think living through others more than through yourself. I think

877
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:14,919
Speaker 3: having children has been great for me because their joy

878
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:18,360
Speaker 3: becomes my joy. I was getting slightly bored with the

879
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:23,439
Speaker 3: story of Amen. I thought, okay this, and suddenly there's

880
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 3: a you know, there's a whole new sort of volume

881
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:30,839
Speaker 3: that I can read instead. And just walking walking my dog,

882
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:33,720
Speaker 3: seeing the pleasure they take in a big open field

883
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:38,360
Speaker 3: is something that gives me pleasure. Yeah, I'm just essentially

884
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 3: I don't have My highs are fairly low and my

885
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:41,479
Speaker 3: lows are fairly high.

886
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:41,839
Speaker 2: I'm a.

887
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 3: I'm just one of those people who just sort of

888
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 3: observes life more than I sort of throw myself into it.

889
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 3: I'm not deeply sort of emotional, but I'm not. I'm

890
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 3: sort of more governed by by thoughts than feelings a

891
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 3: lot of the time. But you know, when I feel

892
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 3: love for people or animal and see them feel joy,

893
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 3: it travels in down a direct tube to my brain

894
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:07,919
Speaker 3: and my heart.

895
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 2: There's a tube amazing to get back on.

896
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:17,240
Speaker 3: My metaphor filled out of the end there, But I'm

897
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 3: interested in protecting this tube at all. Happiness to usher

898
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:24,240
Speaker 3: it's a million dollar business.

899
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 2: It's been great to chat to you. Thanks for taking it.

900
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:29,399
Speaker 2: Thanks for writing this book. It's been good to talk

901
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:30,359
Speaker 2: about this stuff for you today.

902
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 3: Got a champion, Thanks Matte.

903
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 1: That was am And Evans's latest book that he has written.

904
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:39,720
Speaker 1: He's already written fifteen, but his latest book I'm written.

905
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 1: I'm writing number three right now, fifteen. Jesus fucking Christ.

906
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 1: That is a lot of work, but good on you amen.

907
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 1: His latest book is called The Importance of Being Miserable,

908
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 1: A Short History of human happiness and why sometimes it's

909
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 1: good to feel bad. And you can get it right

910
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:56,240
Speaker 1: now in all good and somewhat adequate bookstores as well.

911
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: Look if you want to get a touch, if you

912
00:50:57,680 --> 00:50:59,359
Speaker 1: want to get early tickets to live shows and get

913
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 1: exclusive acts to much more than this podcast, look in

914
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 1: the show notes. That's where you'll find a link to

915
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 1: the newsletter, the YouTube pages, and tickets for the next

916
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:08,040
Speaker 1: storytelling show, story Club. It's on the fifteenth of February.

917
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 1: I'd love to see you there. Thanks to Damian Haffendon

918
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 1: and Cassidy Creevy help me make this episode. Thanks to

919
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 1: you for listening. Tell you friends like rate, subscribe, leave

920
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 1: a comment, get in touch. You'll find the newsletter in

921
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 1: the show notes. I'll get out of you, have a

922
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 1: lovely day,