WEBVTT - Who was involved in Australia’s decision to expel the Iranian ambassador?

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<v Speaker 1>Since the terrible events of October seven, twenty twenty three,

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<v Speaker 1>we have witnessed a number of appalling anti Semitic attacks

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<v Speaker 1>against Australia's Jewish community. I have made it clear that

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<v Speaker 1>these sorts of incidents have no place in Australia and

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<v Speaker 1>that I wanted Asia and the AFP to investigate as

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<v Speaker 1>a priority.

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<v Speaker 2>When Prime Minister to Anthony Albanezi fronted the media this

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<v Speaker 2>week alongside ASIO chief Mike Burgess, it was with extraordinary news.

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<v Speaker 2>Albanizer revealed that ASIO now has evidence that the Iranian

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<v Speaker 2>government was behind at least two anti Semitic attacks on

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<v Speaker 2>Australian soil, the fire bombing of a Jewish kitchen in

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<v Speaker 2>Bandai and an arson attack on the Adas Synagogue in Melbourne.

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<v Speaker 2>He said Iran directed the attacks and then tried to

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<v Speaker 2>cover up its role.

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<v Speaker 1>It is totally unacceptable and the Australian government is taking

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<v Speaker 1>strong and decisive action in response. A short time ago,

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<v Speaker 1>we informed the Iranian ambassador to Australia that he would

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<v Speaker 1>be expelled.

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<v Speaker 2>It was interesting timing as Australia's Defense Minister took an

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<v Speaker 2>impromptu visit to the United States, taking secret meetings with

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<v Speaker 2>unpublished agendas. I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven

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<v Speaker 2>AM today Press Gallery journalist Karen Middleton on the high

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<v Speaker 2>States diplomacy behind closed doors and the shifting lines of

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<v Speaker 2>trust between the US, Israel and Australia. It's Saturday, August thirty, Karen.

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<v Speaker 2>Last weekend, Defense Minister and Deputy PM Richard Marles made

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<v Speaker 2>a seemingly unplanned lightning trip to Washington. What struck you

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<v Speaker 2>about the timing of that trip, Well.

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<v Speaker 3>Daniel, For starters, it was a parliamentary sitting week, and

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<v Speaker 3>normally when there's a high level visit overseas involving a

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<v Speaker 3>senior minister like Richard Miles, you would have all eat

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<v Speaker 3>a sitting week wherever possible because he has parliamentary duties.

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<v Speaker 3>It's not a great look to be missing parliament. So

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<v Speaker 3>that suggests to you that it was a meeting of

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<v Speaker 3>some urgency. And then you know there was a lot

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<v Speaker 3>of confusion around exactly why he was going and who

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<v Speaker 3>was meeting with. But primarily the first sign that it

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<v Speaker 3>was a bit weird was the fact that it clashed

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<v Speaker 3>with a sitting fortnite.

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<v Speaker 2>And as Miles flew out, he usued a statement saying

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<v Speaker 2>that the purpose of the trip was a meeting with

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<v Speaker 2>his counterpart, Pete Hegsith, but his key meeting was with

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<v Speaker 2>the Secretary of State Marque Rubio. So what can we

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<v Speaker 2>take from that.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, that's the second thing that was a little bit odd.

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<v Speaker 3>He did indicate as he flew out on Sunday that

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<v Speaker 3>he was seeing Pete Hegsas. Then it was suggested that

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<v Speaker 3>that meeting hadn't been locked in and he was arriving

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<v Speaker 3>in Washington without it having been locked in. Then we

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<v Speaker 3>discovered that he was seeing Marco Rubio, who's the Secretary

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<v Speaker 3>of State. Now he's also the acting National Security Advisor,

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<v Speaker 3>so he does have a broad remit. And Richard Marle

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<v Speaker 3>is in the security domain as Defense Minister, so it's

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<v Speaker 3>not ridiculous that he would meet the Secretary of State.

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<v Speaker 3>But generally speaking, it would be a foreign minister who

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<v Speaker 3>would be meeting with the Secretary of State, and that

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<v Speaker 3>meeting has been very much downplayed by Richard Miles and

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<v Speaker 3>by the government generally. All the focus has been on

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<v Speaker 3>the whether he did or didn't meet with Pete Hegsas.

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<v Speaker 3>But the meeting with Rubio, there was one photograph that

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<v Speaker 3>was published in the Australian newspaper, but didn't appear on

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<v Speaker 3>Richard Miles or social media feeds of him and Kevin Rudby,

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<v Speaker 3>Ambassador and Australian officials sitting down with Marco Arriubio and

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<v Speaker 3>American officials, and we don't know what was discussed. And

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<v Speaker 3>normally there's a readout from the American end, at least

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<v Speaker 3>on a formal sit down meeting with a visiting foreign

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<v Speaker 3>leader or minister, and we didn't get that. So there's

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<v Speaker 3>nothing from the American side and nothing from the Australian

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<v Speaker 3>side on why they sat down, on what they talked about.

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<v Speaker 3>So there's a.

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<v Speaker 2>Degree of ambiguity about it all. What did the Pentagon

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<v Speaker 2>say when they responded to the questions about these meetings.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, this did not make it any clearer, can I say?

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<v Speaker 3>Initially Richard Marles issued these photographs of himself with Vice

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<v Speaker 3>President JD. Evance and with Defense Secretary Pete Hegsath, So

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<v Speaker 3>there was naturally a question about, well, what happened at

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<v Speaker 3>the heggs this meeting, and the Pentagon issued a statement

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<v Speaker 3>saying it wasn't a meeting.

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<v Speaker 4>The Pentagon has told nine News there was not a

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<v Speaker 4>meeting between Defense Minister Richard Miles and his US counterpart

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<v Speaker 4>Pete Hegzeth. A US defense official, says it was a

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<v Speaker 4>happenstance encounter.

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<v Speaker 2>Mister Martin just sent us.

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<v Speaker 3>Offline to the dictionaries to try and work out what

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<v Speaker 3>that exactly means, because it's not a Jenner phrase we've

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<v Speaker 3>heard before. But it would suggest very strongly that it

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<v Speaker 3>was not a meeting of substance. It was a chat basically.

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<v Speaker 3>But then it got weirder because of course, once Richard

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<v Speaker 3>Miles was back in Australia, there was a lot of

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<v Speaker 3>media attention on this and what this phrase means.

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<v Speaker 5>You would see politicians have a pretty good understanding of

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<v Speaker 5>their diaries. However, there is confusion tonight as neither the

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<v Speaker 5>Australian nor the United States governments seemed to know if

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<v Speaker 5>our defense ministers had a meeting or not.

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<v Speaker 3>And then the Pentagon issued another statement, which we suspect

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<v Speaker 3>was at the urging of Richard Miles and the government

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<v Speaker 3>saying no, no, it was actually a meeting.

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<v Speaker 6>And within hours a fresh statement from the Pentagon landed

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<v Speaker 6>Secretary Hegseth welcomed the opportunity to meet in person with

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<v Speaker 6>Deputy Prime Minister Miles. Their meeting at the White House

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<v Speaker 6>on Tuesday was coordinated in advance.

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<v Speaker 3>By Thursday, Miles was back in Parliament and he got

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<v Speaker 3>a question from Shadow Minister Angus Taylor specifically about the

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<v Speaker 3>Hexath meeting.

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<v Speaker 2>Was this a meeting with Secretary Exith or just a

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<v Speaker 2>photo opportunity and was there an outcome beyond the photo?

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<v Speaker 3>Richard Miles had a crack at Angus Taylor in reply,

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<v Speaker 3>but he still didn't tell us why he went.

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<v Speaker 4>Misters Speaker, I think we all understand that the question

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<v Speaker 4>from Captain Conspiracy over here was whether or no, actually the.

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<v Speaker 3>But the Pentagon has not issued any kind of readout

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<v Speaker 3>on this meeting, and normally they would, so to not

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<v Speaker 3>have a summary does suggest this was somewhere short of

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<v Speaker 3>a full blown meeting.

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<v Speaker 2>Coming up, Marco Rubio's meeting with Israel's foreign minister and

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<v Speaker 2>how it may have shaped what happened here, Karen, Marco

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<v Speaker 2>Rubio had another significant meeting this week with Israel's Foreign Minister,

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<v Speaker 2>Gideon sa So what do we know about what was

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<v Speaker 2>discussed and whether there was any link between that meeting

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<v Speaker 2>and Rubio's meeting with Miles.

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<v Speaker 3>They did issue a readout on that meeting. It was

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<v Speaker 3>a couple of days after the one with Richard Miles,

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<v Speaker 3>and in a lot of ways, the content of what

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<v Speaker 3>they discussed, according to the readout, was not very surprising.

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<v Speaker 3>They said that they had discussed the US's quote unwavering

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<v Speaker 3>commitment to Israel's security unquote, and that's spoken specifically about

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<v Speaker 3>Gaza Lebanon in Syria. So that's hardly surprising, especially under

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<v Speaker 3>the current circumstances. And then there was this sentence quote additionally,

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<v Speaker 3>the Secretary discussed the importance of countering Iran's malign influence unquote. Now, again,

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<v Speaker 3>there's nothing surprising about discussing Iran. Israel attacked Iran recently,

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<v Speaker 3>we know all about that. It's the wording that says

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<v Speaker 3>as Secretary discussed Iran. Whether there's anything significant in it

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<v Speaker 3>being the Secretary who brought that up rather than the

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<v Speaker 3>Israeli Foreign Minister, I don't know. We could be reading

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<v Speaker 3>way too much into it, but of course we're interested

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<v Speaker 3>in any reference to Iran in the current context, in

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<v Speaker 3>proximity to what the Australian government announced just as Richard

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<v Speaker 3>Miles was sitting down with his counterparts in Washington.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so let's go to that current context. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>like you said, Ribio and Sara discussed Iran, but it

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<v Speaker 2>came at the same week that our government took the

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<v Speaker 2>extraordinary step of expelling the Iranian ambassador from the country,

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<v Speaker 2>and we're told this was because the Iranian government was

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<v Speaker 2>behind anti Semitic attacks on Australian soil. Can you tell

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<v Speaker 2>me what's known about Iran's record on orchestrating attacks in

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<v Speaker 2>other countries.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, we certainly know that Iran has been accused of

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<v Speaker 3>orchestrating attacks in Europe and elsewhere. That what they are

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<v Speaker 3>said to have done is hired local criminals to undertake

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<v Speaker 3>violent attacks. We've also heard a lot of evidence of

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<v Speaker 3>harassment of Iranian expatriates living in other countries. But these

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<v Speaker 3>the violent attacks and the alleged use of criminal gangs

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<v Speaker 3>and criminal networks is what appears to be similar to

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<v Speaker 3>the allegation we're seeing in Australia.

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<v Speaker 2>The federal government has announced that the Islamic Revolutionary Guard

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<v Speaker 2>Corps will be listed as a terrorist organization. This is

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<v Speaker 2>something that critics of the regime have been calling for

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<v Speaker 2>for a long time. So how long has the government

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<v Speaker 2>been warned about Iranian activity in Australia.

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<v Speaker 3>The government has known and had concerns for some time

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<v Speaker 3>and that goes back to them Morrison government as well

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<v Speaker 3>as the under the alb and Esy government, but has

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<v Speaker 3>resisted taking formal steps like expelling the ambassador to see

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<v Speaker 3>Now or listing the Iran Revolutionary Guard Corps as a

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<v Speaker 3>terrorist organization. There was a Senate inquiry in Australia in

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<v Speaker 3>twenty twenty three examining the implications of the deaths of

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<v Speaker 3>a young Iranian woman, Marsa Amini in Tehran, who had

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<v Speaker 3>been arrested for not wearing a hijab and died in

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<v Speaker 3>mysterious circumstances. It was great concern. There were protests worldwide

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<v Speaker 3>at the treatment of women. There were allegations of harassment

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<v Speaker 3>of Iranian Australians here and there was great pressure then

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<v Speaker 3>on the government from members of the Coalition here in

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<v Speaker 3>Australia and for members of the wider Iranian community to

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<v Speaker 3>list the Iran Revolutionary Guard Corps. At the time, and interestingly,

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<v Speaker 3>the Director General of ASIO, Mike Burgess, mentioned Iran specifically

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<v Speaker 3>in his National Security Assessment in February, which he does annually.

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<v Speaker 7>We shouldn't be complacent or consider ourselves insulated from any

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<v Speaker 7>of these threats. We are not immune to hostile nation

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<v Speaker 7>states such as I run undertaking acts of security concern

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<v Speaker 7>on our shores or near region.

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<v Speaker 2>Given that history, Karen, how significant was what the government

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<v Speaker 2>did this week.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a big thing. What they have done is they

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<v Speaker 3>have declared the Iranian ambassador persona non grata and kicked

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<v Speaker 3>him out of the country. They gave him forty eight

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<v Speaker 3>hours to leave and he has now gone. I have

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<v Speaker 3>done my job and I'm going upon determination of my

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<v Speaker 3>mission going home. Three other Iranian diplomats have been given

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<v Speaker 3>seven days to get out of the country.

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<v Speaker 7>Now.

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<v Speaker 3>The reason the governments are very reluctant to do this

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<v Speaker 3>is that it sever's relations with another country. There is

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<v Speaker 3>no channel of communication. If you have Australians of dual

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<v Speaker 3>nationality or Australians living and working in that other country,

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<v Speaker 3>it leaves them vulnerable because there are no bilateral relations

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<v Speaker 3>and the reciprocal thing usually happens and has in this

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<v Speaker 3>case that Australian diplomats have been extracted from Iran. The

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<v Speaker 3>government had to get them out of the country before

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<v Speaker 3>it made this announcement public because of concerns for their safety.

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<v Speaker 3>We've seen violent actions against the Australian embassy in Iran

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<v Speaker 3>in the past and an assassination plot against the Australian

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<v Speaker 3>ambassador in Iran some six years ago, but it's never

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<v Speaker 3>got to this stage of evidence of actual violent acts

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<v Speaker 3>in Australia. So that's a big thing to expel the

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<v Speaker 3>ambassador and then to make this decision to list the

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<v Speaker 3>Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist organization is also a big deal.

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<v Speaker 1>The government will legislate so that we can list around

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<v Speaker 1>Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps the RIGC as a terrorist organization.

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<v Speaker 1>The actions of my government send a very clear message

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<v Speaker 1>to what.

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<v Speaker 3>That does is it's effectively saying that an arm of

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<v Speaker 3>a foreign government, that a foreign state is a terrorist state.

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<v Speaker 3>This Revolutionary Guard as the Yataller's security force. So in

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<v Speaker 3>making that statement in the government's going to have to

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<v Speaker 3>amend the Criminal Code here to allow for that. And

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<v Speaker 3>it does open up potential other implications. For example, in

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<v Speaker 3>other non democratic countries where there might be aggressive security forces,

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<v Speaker 3>are they going to come under pressure now to do

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<v Speaker 3>the same thing. There The upside in terms of the

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<v Speaker 3>law of listing an organization like that is that it

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<v Speaker 3>widens the scope of the kinds of criminal offenses that

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<v Speaker 3>people involved in these kinds of violence in Australia might

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<v Speaker 3>be exposed to. For example, they wouldn't just be charged

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<v Speaker 3>with attacking premises, they'd be potentially charged with terrorism offenses.

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<v Speaker 3>So there are lots of reasons to do it, but

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<v Speaker 3>they have a lot of consequences, and there's also now

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<v Speaker 3>concerned of retaliation against Australians in Iran.

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<v Speaker 2>And finally, Karen, do you think it's fair to assume

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<v Speaker 2>the government made these calls after consulting with the US

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<v Speaker 2>and indirectly with Israel itself.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, there's no doubt that the United States would have

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<v Speaker 3>known about this. We know from things the government said

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<v Speaker 3>in the last few days that there was at least

0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:06.280
<v Speaker 3>one foreign intelligence service involved in this. They say that

0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:08.719
<v Speaker 3>Azio did the bulk of the work, but there was

0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:11.800
<v Speaker 3>clearly involvement of our foreign intelligence service. Whether that was

0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:14.719
<v Speaker 3>the United States or Israel or both, we don't know,

0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:17.360
<v Speaker 3>but you can be assured the United States would have

0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:21.559
<v Speaker 3>known well before the announcement was made on Tuesday that

0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:24.719
<v Speaker 3>this was going to happen. I'm sure Israel would have

0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:28.240
<v Speaker 3>been kept informed as well, given the anti Semitic nature

0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:32.559
<v Speaker 3>of these attacks and the implications for Jewish Australians and

0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:39.200
<v Speaker 3>for Jews abroad. So Tuesday was not the first time

0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:41.439
<v Speaker 3>that many of those other countries had heard about it,

0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:43.719
<v Speaker 3>and indeed Monday was not the first time that the

0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:46.480
<v Speaker 3>Australian executive government, the Prime Ministry and his colleagues would

0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:48.240
<v Speaker 3>have heard about it either. They would have been kept

0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:53.360
<v Speaker 3>abreast of the investigation and it was the formal advice

0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:56.000
<v Speaker 3>that they received from ASIO on Monday that prompted them

0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:59.199
<v Speaker 3>to take these steps, But people would have been kept

0:13:59.240 --> 0:13:59.920
<v Speaker 3>in the loop for sure.

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<v Speaker 2>Karen, thank you so much for your time. Thanks Daniel,

0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:20.200
<v Speaker 2>thanks for listening to this extra Saturday edition of seven AM.

0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:24.160
<v Speaker 2>On Monday, I speak with the Federal Environment Minister Murray Watt.

0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:27.120
<v Speaker 2>I asked him about his plans to fix Australia's broken

0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:30.240
<v Speaker 2>environmental laws, and I ask why in one of his

0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:33.960
<v Speaker 2>first acts as minister, he approved the expansion of Woodside's

0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:38.520
<v Speaker 2>massive Northwest Shelf gas project, despite Australians voting for action

0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:39.480
<v Speaker 2>on climate change.

0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:44.680
<v Speaker 8>I understand that when that decision was made there were

0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:47.520
<v Speaker 8>many people who looked at it and questioned how we

0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:51.680
<v Speaker 8>could be approving a project like that when you're thinking

0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:53.960
<v Speaker 8>about greenhouse emissions and climate change.

0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:57.080
<v Speaker 2>See you on Monday. Have a great weekend.

0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:02.240
<v Speaker 7>D