Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Something to Talk About Burstella Podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm Sarah Lamarquin, your host, and this year I have
Speaker 1: had the privilege of sitting down with some of the
Speaker 1: biggest names in the country. Because when Estrala's celebrities are
Speaker 1: ready to talk, they come to Something to talk About.
Speaker 1: We're continuing to publish across the summer break, and we'll
Speaker 1: be back with a brand new episode on January twelfth.
Speaker 1: In the meantime, each day for the next two weeks,
Speaker 1: we'll be revisiting some of your favorite episodes from the
Speaker 1: past year, and I'm happy to report that there have
Speaker 1: been a lot of popular episodes, but out of the
Speaker 1: fifty we released in twenty twenty four, we've narrowed it
Speaker 1: down to ten conversations to revisit over the summer break,
Speaker 1: and today you'll hear from Aita Bartro's. I spoke to
Speaker 1: her on International Women's Day back in March, just as
Speaker 1: she was preparing to step down from her role of
Speaker 1: chair of the ABC at the age of eighty two.
Speaker 1: There were a lot of takeaways from this conversation, including
Speaker 1: the inside story of what happened when Lee Sales once
Speaker 1: parked in Ida's car spot at the ABC. So without
Speaker 1: further ado, here's Ita Ita. If I were to read
Speaker 1: out your CV in full, all we would have time
Speaker 1: for in this conversation is for me to then say
Speaker 1: thank you Aita, buttro's Acob for coming into the studio
Speaker 1: and goodbye. But most recently, of course, has been your
Speaker 1: five year tenure as chair of the ABC, which comes
Speaker 1: to an end later this week, which is largely why
Speaker 1: I finally convinced you to come into the studio and
Speaker 1: talk to me for something to talk about. Now, our rollers,
Speaker 1: high profile and complex as chair of the national broadcaster,
Speaker 1: was always going to bring unique challenges, very unique eyes
Speaker 1: and lows, but perhaps none more so than in recent
Speaker 1: events following the termination of Antoinette Letou from a short
Speaker 1: term contract filling in on ABC Radio Sydney latellast year
Speaker 1: after she shared a post on social media about the
Speaker 1: war in Gaza. Now that matter is currently before the
Speaker 1: Fair Work Commission, So I understand that you may be
Speaker 1: limited in what you can say.
Speaker 2: Not only limited, I can't talk about it, but can.
Speaker 1: I ask you how you're feeling about such a controversial
Speaker 1: chapter of the ABC's recent history, coinciding with the end
Speaker 1: of your term. Has it taken a little bit of
Speaker 1: the shine of the past five years.
Speaker 2: I think you're trying to find a very clever way
Speaker 2: to get me to talk about what I can't talk about.
Speaker 2: I simply cannot talk about that matter.
Speaker 1: Well, I was going to ask if there was any
Speaker 1: response that you wanted to say to accusations that have
Speaker 1: been leveled by various members of the public and from
Speaker 1: staff within the ABC that this incident has shown that
Speaker 1: the National Broadcaster can be influenced by powerful lobby groups
Speaker 1: its independence is undermined.
Speaker 2: Any comment on that, Well, I think the role of
Speaker 2: independence of the National Broadcaster is paramount to what we
Speaker 2: do and it's enshrined in legislation. And Look, I've been
Speaker 2: working in high profile roles in the media for a
Speaker 2: very long period of time and I've received lots of
Speaker 2: letters and emails over that time and the ABC and
Speaker 2: I have never have never been influenced by outside lobbyists,
Speaker 2: people passionate about their particular causes, politicians, commercial interests, you
Speaker 2: name it. The ABC has never caved in. I've never
Speaker 2: caved in, and neither as the managing director nor the board.
Speaker 2: We're very passionate about the independence of the role of
Speaker 2: the ABC, and we're very conscious about duties as board members.
Speaker 1: I mean, there are inevitabilities in life. Everyone says death taxes,
Speaker 1: I would say if you live in Australia. Also constant
Speaker 1: arguing about the ABC from all sides of politics. Different
Speaker 1: debates go on over the years. All the ABC is
Speaker 1: left leaning. There's other people say all the ABC's at
Speaker 1: the whim of whoever is in government. It's a tale
Speaker 1: as old as time in many chairs before you have
Speaker 1: also well literally sat in that chair and had to
Speaker 1: contend with this. The last time you and I spoke,
Speaker 1: Aita was the ninetieth anniversary of the ABC in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty two, and I think at that time what we
Speaker 1: were talking about was there been criticisms from the Liberal
Speaker 1: Party that the ABC was being not supportive enough of
Speaker 1: the government, and at that time you said, it is
Speaker 1: not the role of the ABC. It's not my job
Speaker 1: as chair to be keeping either side any Prime minister,
Speaker 1: any opposition leader.
Speaker 2: That's true. I mean the role of the ABC chair
Speaker 2: is not to be friendly, not to be necessarily unfriendly,
Speaker 2: but certainly not to be friendly to politicians, whatever party
Speaker 2: they represent. That's not the role our role is to
Speaker 2: entertain and inform and educate this round in public, and
Speaker 2: we do that by maintaining our independence.
Speaker 1: So I certainly don't imagine that what's happened of late
Speaker 1: is new for you, in that it is an ongoing
Speaker 1: conversation and it certainly will be for your successor, and
Speaker 1: will probably be when the ABC is celebrating its one
Speaker 1: hundredth and ninetieth in a century. But I also wanted
Speaker 1: to ask it is just a matter of public record,
Speaker 1: Ita that it was August of last year that you
Speaker 1: announced that you would not seek a second term as
Speaker 1: ABC chair when your five year ends in March twenty
Speaker 1: twenty four, and yet despite that being out there six
Speaker 1: months ago, I think that's when I first started the
Speaker 1: conversation about could we do a cover of Stella and
Speaker 1: a conversation on this podcast to mark the end of
Speaker 1: your term. Recently, the Prime Minister had a press conference
Speaker 1: to announce your successor, Kim Williams. That was reported by
Speaker 1: some media outlets as so Anthony Albanezi announces Isia Butchro's
Speaker 1: will leave ABC chair position. I was watching Breakfast TV
Speaker 1: and I saw one commentator because they had all crossed
Speaker 1: to this what appeared to be a fairly quickly called
Speaker 1: press conference from the Prime Minister. I saw one commentator
Speaker 1: speculate that, oh, well, this must be because of the
Speaker 1: recent controversy. Is this frustrating knowing that you, as I
Speaker 1: say it's on the public record, decided more than six
Speaker 1: months ago that you would not be seeking a second term.
Speaker 2: Well, some people are members of the media, and I
Speaker 2: would suggest to you that they're not well enough informed.
Speaker 2: And if I was going to be critical of younger
Speaker 2: members of the media and maybe older, but I suspect
Speaker 2: we're talking about younger is that they don't research well
Speaker 2: enough the topics on which they're going to make pronouncements.
Speaker 2: And you know, I did notify the government and the
Speaker 2: Minister Michelle Roland in August last year that I was
Speaker 2: not going to seek another term. I think five years
Speaker 2: is quite a long time to serve the ab thing.
Speaker 2: I know some chairs have gone on and done a
Speaker 2: second term, but I'm conscious that I am a woman
Speaker 2: at a certain age and despite the President of the
Speaker 2: United States Joe Biden, thinking he should run another term,
Speaker 2: I don't think he should. I think sometimes you need
Speaker 2: to examine yourself and say, well, I am a person
Speaker 2: of a certain age and everything's fine and cognitively I'm good,
Speaker 2: so the doctors say. But still it's just weigh it
Speaker 2: up another five years, what would it be like? And
Speaker 2: I think there's a time when you have to know
Speaker 2: in yourself when you need to step aside, and I
Speaker 2: felt that was that time. So it had nothing to
Speaker 2: do with any current events that are going on, and
Speaker 2: it really just reminds me of how adequately trained young josts.
Speaker 1: Yes, well, I have to say I don't disagree with that.
Speaker 1: I'm always reluctant as I'm sure at some level you
Speaker 1: are to as ultimately journalists to give out about the media,
Speaker 1: because the truth is all parts of the media, commercial
Speaker 1: or publicly funded, are facing very challenging times under resource.
Speaker 1: But I agree that is absolutely a lack of research.
Speaker 1: And that's got to be the difference between media and
Speaker 1: TikTok is that we as journalists do our research and
Speaker 1: that if you are writing that headline, that basic fact
Speaker 1: checking has happened. But for you, is there a partner?
Speaker 1: I absolutely understand. That's why I wanted to use this
Speaker 1: opportunity to clarify that you were already leaving that was
Speaker 1: a decision made a long time ago for the reasons
Speaker 1: that you've just articulated. And I really hope Joe Biden
Speaker 1: does listen to this, because I agree strongly, by the way,
Speaker 1: but that's okay. I warn't sidebar this into conversation about
Speaker 1: US politics. But if there had been scope, and there isn't.
Speaker 1: So this is a hyphathetical, but to say, actually, I'm
Speaker 1: going to finish up at the end of the year
Speaker 1: because I just feel I'm dealing with a little bit
Speaker 1: of unfinished business right now. Is there a part of
Speaker 1: you that just feels in terms of legacy and all
Speaker 1: that you have achieved over the last five years that
Speaker 1: I want to ask you about that there is going
Speaker 1: to be a perception for some that it was unfinished
Speaker 1: business and you were leaving at a difficult time.
Speaker 2: Well, if that's their perception, they're wrong. I mean, I
Speaker 2: can't help. I can't help what happens in the time
Speaker 2: that I've told the Minister I'm not renewing my term,
Speaker 2: and what's going on now. The ABC is never still.
Speaker 2: There's always something happening at the ABC. Everybody has a
Speaker 2: viewpoint about the ABC, and that's right and proper, and
Speaker 2: so they should, and you know, anyone that draws a
Speaker 2: different conclusion that you know, it's just happened and it's
Speaker 2: coincidental that you know my term is coming to an end.
Speaker 2: Kim william was a weird, very robust chair. I don't
Speaker 2: think I don't think there's a I don't think he's
Speaker 2: a shrinking violet at all. And I'm sure he liked me.
Speaker 2: Is used to this kind of activity in the media
Speaker 2: because he too has a media pedigree, if I can
Speaker 2: put it like that, And I am so glad the
Speaker 2: current government continued to put a chair in with media
Speaker 2: experience because I think that I was the first chair
Speaker 2: that had extensive media experience like I've got, and Kim
Speaker 2: Williams is similar and that can only be good for
Speaker 2: the National Broadcaster.
Speaker 1: Do you have any advice for Kim Williams.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't dream of giving Kim Williams advice. He's his
Speaker 2: own man.
Speaker 1: Did anybody give you advice when you were appointed to No.
Speaker 2: You know they did, I mean listeners. Did you know
Speaker 2: in the park when I was walking the dog? However,
Speaker 2: don't change this, don't change that, but any listeners, No,
Speaker 2: nobody gave me any advice. At all.
Speaker 1: Everyone does have an opinion on the ABC just said that,
Speaker 1: whether it is somebody that you're walking past in the
Speaker 1: park or somebody on the website formerly known as Twitter,
Speaker 1: How has that been for you? Because my priority as
Speaker 1: a journalist, and I think should be for all journalists,
Speaker 1: is ultimately to the audience, wherever it is. The people
Speaker 1: that listen to your podcasts, of people that watch your show,
Speaker 1: the people that read your magazine, are reading your story online,
Speaker 1: whatever platform I have.
Speaker 2: It's always the audience. It's always the audience, whatever it is,
Speaker 2: whether it's print, radio, TV.
Speaker 1: I mean, you've worked for a lot of people, and
Speaker 1: you've had people work for you over the years where
Speaker 1: everyone is charming and with their opinion and often you
Speaker 1: just have to cut it out as an editor in chief.
Speaker 1: But being chair of a public broadcaster, I imagine has brought
Speaker 1: a level of everyone wanting to give you their two cents,
Speaker 1: but also some people thinking, well, as a taxpayer, I
Speaker 1: have a stake in this, and you have to actually
Speaker 1: take my two cents on board. Is that anything that
Speaker 1: you'd ever really dealt with in your career?
Speaker 2: Sure?
Speaker 1: This role?
Speaker 2: Sure? I mean people used to think they had the
Speaker 2: right to tell me something about the Women's Weekly, something
Speaker 2: about Cleo, something about the telegraphs. That's fine, that's fine,
Speaker 2: that's feedback, and it's sometimes it's very useful. I don't
Speaker 2: mind it at all, and usually I make some sort
Speaker 2: of acknowledgment of their letters. But an acknowledgment of a
Speaker 2: letter or an email does not mean I'm endorsing whatever
Speaker 2: it is they're writing to me about. It's simply being
Speaker 2: courteous and saying, right, I've got it, I've noted it,
Speaker 2: I've read what you had to say. I'm sending it
Speaker 2: to this department or that department or someone else. You know,
Speaker 2: whatever it is.
Speaker 1: Is that something through your whole career you've done. Because
Speaker 1: I ignore a lot of emails, and I'm not proud of it,
Speaker 1: but I do sometimes I think about you, and I
Speaker 1: think a bit eighter right back. I don't think about
Speaker 1: that all the time. Don't worry, but there are moments
Speaker 1: where I will think, this is probably not okay, that
Speaker 1: I'm just ignoring or ninety nine percent of my emails
Speaker 1: are sitting in the drafts folder.
Speaker 2: Well, you probably don't have executive assistance or secretaries like
Speaker 2: I used to, and they have been very useful to
Speaker 2: me because I could sometimes dictate a reply in the days,
Speaker 2: in the days when people did shorthand and shorthand. Now
Speaker 2: they don't, so you tend to sort of just put
Speaker 2: a note down about which way you want to go.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure that's part of it, but I
Speaker 1: do really think, yes, certainly, you know, there would be
Speaker 1: a multitude of administrative reasons that I don't, but I
Speaker 1: think that a big part of the difference is just
Speaker 1: that courteous commitment that you have and you are. It's
Speaker 1: very some people would think old fashion phrase, but you're
Speaker 1: just extremely well mannered. I can't imagine you not engaging
Speaker 1: or acknowledging well.
Speaker 2: You know, sometimes people write to me about very intimate
Speaker 2: things in their life. It could be about a domestic
Speaker 2: violence issue, or a death in the family, a troubled child,
Speaker 2: a mental health issue, a dementia issue. Those are very
Speaker 2: different from people that are writing to criticize something we're
Speaker 2: doing in the ABC or to lobby me. And those letters, yes,
Speaker 2: I do. I do respond to them personally because they've
Speaker 2: written because they need a helping hand. And you know,
Speaker 2: I'm in the fortunate position because I've worked in a
Speaker 2: lot of these areas where I can actually suggest. I
Speaker 2: never tell them this is what they should be doing,
Speaker 2: but I can suggest where they might seek help, where
Speaker 2: they might find counseling. Sometimes people do reach out to
Speaker 2: people they don't really know, but they think they know
Speaker 2: because of your profile. And I think, of course you're
Speaker 2: going to help them, of course, because if it were
Speaker 2: me and I was in that desperate sort of situation,
Speaker 2: I'd be hoping someone would give me a hand.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I will say I do right back to anyone
Speaker 1: in that situation as well. And I think it's actually
Speaker 1: it's such a privilege of journalism, isn't it. Ultimately, if
Speaker 1: somebody has heard or read or seen something and they
Speaker 1: think I might be ready to talk about that, I
Speaker 1: want to tell this person. I think of it some
Speaker 1: ways as that disclosure where then we are essentially the
Speaker 1: referral service. As you say, We're not there to actually
Speaker 1: be the advice. But it's just that privilege of knowing
Speaker 1: whatever it is has sparked somebody to actually reach out.
Speaker 2: I think it's trust. They feel they can trust you,
Speaker 2: they can trust you to give them a sensible sort
Speaker 2: of reply.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you about the five years at the ABC.
Speaker 1: What for you have been some of the standout memories,
Speaker 1: What have been the greatest moments? As you leave on
Speaker 1: your final day later this week, what do you think
Speaker 1: you'll be most proud of and would there be any
Speaker 1: do overs or regrets?
Speaker 2: Well, I think I think the passion of them, of
Speaker 2: the staff for public broadcasting, they are really passionate about
Speaker 2: it and it's hard to ignore. I think that when
Speaker 2: I arrived, I bought rigor, stability and governance because the
Speaker 2: ABC had suffered organizational management problems of a strange nature
Speaker 2: where you had a chair and a managing director who
Speaker 2: were not talking to each other directly. They were talking
Speaker 2: through other people. Now, you cannot run any organization, let
Speaker 2: alone the ABC if the chair and the managing director
Speaker 2: are not talking, And you think, how on earth did
Speaker 2: this develop? And I never read anything about this situation.
Speaker 2: I never got an inkling of it from the government,
Speaker 2: and so you were right. When I walked in the
Speaker 2: door at Ultimo, where the ABC's headquarters are, I thought, oh,
Speaker 2: this place feels terrible. You know there was It just
Speaker 2: didn't feel right. And then I heard the story and
Speaker 2: I got more details of what had been going on
Speaker 2: the board was shattered. They'd had to appear before Senate,
Speaker 2: estimates Senate just for the Senate. They had to appear
Speaker 2: before the Senate, and you know, and that was a
Speaker 2: very sober experience for them all, and scary really because
Speaker 2: they're not high profile. They weren't necessarily high profile, and
Speaker 2: they weren't suddenly used to being in the limelight. And
Speaker 2: the management team was in a state of shock. I
Speaker 2: think that's fair to say. I mean, nobody quite knew
Speaker 2: what was happening. And I could sense all of this,
Speaker 2: and I'm thinking, oh, hello, I'm going to be busy.
Speaker 2: And so what I did was trying to restore I'm
Speaker 2: not only tried I did. I restored stability. I reorganized
Speaker 2: the board. I put the governance back into the organization,
Speaker 2: and I think I think that was a very positive
Speaker 2: thing that I did during my tenure. We now make
Speaker 2: content for digital, whereas before we used to make it
Speaker 2: for broadcast. That's been a big change. The government, the
Speaker 2: then government, which was the Coalition government, we're keen for
Speaker 2: the ABC to move. They wanted us to move completely
Speaker 2: entirely out of Ultimore, but we agreed that perhaps a
Speaker 2: percentage of staff, and so I said to the then
Speaker 2: Communications Minister Paul Fletcher, well, I'm thinking of moving to
Speaker 2: paramatter and he said, oh, I didn't realize you were
Speaker 2: thinking like that, and I said, why not. I said,
Speaker 2: I've worked in paramatter. I know what's going on up there.
Speaker 2: It's fantastic. And so we said about organizing a moved
Speaker 2: paramatter and that will take place in what it should
Speaker 2: happen in April May this year. That's it's all going. Well.
Speaker 2: I'm really sorry. It's a lang Walker Corporation building and
Speaker 2: lang took me through it on our floor when on
Speaker 2: my first visited, and I'm so sorry he died recently.
Speaker 2: He was he was a really special bloke, very dynamic.
Speaker 2: What else have I been up to. I think I've
Speaker 2: encouraged the five year Plan so everybody knows what we're doing,
Speaker 2: the government as well as ourselves. I think those are
Speaker 2: the most important things I got up to. There's so many.
Speaker 2: There's so many really, but you know when you try
Speaker 2: to isolate them in an interview, suddenly think, well, what
Speaker 2: have I been doing?
Speaker 1: And five years is a long time, and I mean
Speaker 1: there's been a change of government, there's been a little
Speaker 1: thing called COVID, will not come and gone, but it's certainly.
Speaker 2: COVID was a big challenge for all of this, all
Speaker 2: of us, and especially us, you know, because we're broadcasters
Speaker 2: and we're twenty four to seven. But somehow we managed
Speaker 2: to keep it all going. We managed to keep it
Speaker 2: all going. The staff was fantastic. They were fantastic, you know,
Speaker 2: they were determined to keep it going, and we came
Speaker 2: through COVID.
Speaker 1: What about the doovers or regrets or is that even
Speaker 1: anything that you think about.
Speaker 2: I don't have regrets. I don't have regrets. You can't
Speaker 2: change anything you've done, you know. You just you make
Speaker 2: decisions and you hope to God they're going to work out.
Speaker 2: You make them for all the best reasons in the world.
Speaker 2: We've had board changes, we've had you know, stuff, difficulties, challenges,
Speaker 2: and you weather them out. You just think, all right, well,
Speaker 2: I'll just see what happens here, and then you try
Speaker 2: and give advice because it chairs you know, it's a
Speaker 2: strategic role. But obviously I have a lot of experience,
Speaker 2: there's very little. I haven't an accountant really when you
Speaker 2: think about it. When I think about it, and you know,
Speaker 2: sometimes I can say, well, have you thought of have
Speaker 2: you thought of? And what about? What about? And have
Speaker 2: you thought of? It's a very good way to get
Speaker 2: into a conversation to give advice.
Speaker 1: Is that a phrase that you found you've used throughout
Speaker 1: your recent career or particularly as a chair.
Speaker 2: Oh, I think I think it might crop up more
Speaker 2: than I more than I realized, you know, because I've
Speaker 2: been doing some mentoring of young women in marketing roles,
Speaker 2: one in China, one in Japan, and two here in Australia,
Speaker 2: and it's been really interesting. I was a bit worried
Speaker 2: at first that, you know, I hadn't really done I'd
Speaker 2: done mentoring, but not specifically this kind of work, and
Speaker 2: I thought, oh, I won I wonder if I should
Speaker 2: be burning up on something. But when I was doing them,
Speaker 2: all I thought, this is this is terrific. I know,
Speaker 2: I know the answer. So I've been through all of
Speaker 2: this and I've really enjoyed the experience. Fantasic. It's nice
Speaker 2: sharing knowledge.
Speaker 1: Actually, absolutely, I can't believe that you would even doubt that.
Speaker 1: I can't really think, I mean, talk about winning the lottery,
Speaker 1: you're forgetting artel butchers as a mentor, I would think this, I.
Speaker 2: Know, but You've just got to be sure that you
Speaker 2: know everything that you're going to be asked. I mean,
Speaker 2: I'm a very hard taskmaster on myself.
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty two, you delivered the annual Andrew Ollie
Speaker 1: Media Lecture. Part of it that you spoke about that
Speaker 1: night item was that are we of the media as
Speaker 1: critical of ourselves as we should be. Good journalists always
Speaker 1: will be societies factseekers and truth tellers. It's never about
Speaker 1: lecturing the public on what they should think. Good journalism
Speaker 1: is about reporting just the facts, not opinion. I interviewed
Speaker 1: you later that year, as I mentioned earlier, for the
Speaker 1: ninetieth anniversary, and asked you about that, and at that
Speaker 1: time you said, I've always thought journalists need to be
Speaker 1: a political We're meant to be unbiased. We're meant to
Speaker 1: deal with facts and not opinions. The moment we started
Speaker 1: dishing out bylines as though everyone had an entitlement to
Speaker 1: an opinion, we open the floodgates to opinion journalists. And
Speaker 1: I don't mean the ABC by that, I mean the
Speaker 1: profession generally. Now, you have worked across all mediums throughout
Speaker 1: the course of your career, magazines, newspapers, radio, television. How
Speaker 1: have you, throughout your career navigated the line between commentary
Speaker 1: and facts and when did you first notice this increased
Speaker 1: blurring of the lines start to creep in.
Speaker 2: I think social media has been the culprit here. You know,
Speaker 2: everybody feels they must share, God help us. They share
Speaker 2: the most ridiculous things half the time, and they always
Speaker 2: have an opinion, and they must tell you what their
Speaker 2: opinion is. And half the time you think, but I'm
Speaker 2: not really interested in what your opinion is. And you know,
Speaker 2: we talk about trivializing the news, and I'm sure it's
Speaker 2: got to do with the fact there's so much news.
Speaker 2: It is trivial. You know, people write stories about I
Speaker 2: read them sometimes and I think, why are we writing
Speaker 2: about this peculiar happening in Alabama? Say you know about
Speaker 2: a dog the bit of cat, and you know, you think,
Speaker 2: is that really news? Do we need to know about this?
Speaker 2: And I just think we spend a lot of time
Speaker 2: with trivial news. Now I've put that down to social media,
Speaker 2: and I think Instagram is a perfect culprit and TikTok,
Speaker 2: all of them, really, they all feel they must share everything.
Speaker 2: Do you remember when they used to share the meals,
Speaker 2: they ate out. They the users.
Speaker 1: You have you been out with people that don't eat
Speaker 1: for five minutes because they've got their.
Speaker 2: Phone out taking no, no, no, no, I don't. I
Speaker 2: don't have friends like that, and I would never do it.
Speaker 2: And I think, I think that's what it is. But
Speaker 2: what social media does is that people then take it
Speaker 2: for gospel some people and they think that that is correct,
Speaker 2: but it's not always accurate. But I think the role
Speaker 2: of journalists today is the same as it ever was,
Speaker 2: and that is to give facts and to be honest
Speaker 2: in our reporting. And that means checking your facts and
Speaker 2: not just accepting what you're reading somewhere, but to go
Speaker 2: away and check it. You look it up, you go,
Speaker 2: you go Google or wherever you go, and you just
Speaker 2: check to make sure you're right. In the old days,
Speaker 2: the children said to me, oh, mamma, you back in
Speaker 2: the old dates again. But in the older days, when
Speaker 2: we had sub editors who've been been turfed out of
Speaker 2: our business, which and I think are mistaken, a sub
Speaker 2: editor would come and pounce on you if you've made
Speaker 2: an error, and they'd say, I remember one attacking me
Speaker 2: once because I spelled Burke. B u r k No.
Speaker 2: I was a very young cadet, I've got to say.
Speaker 2: And the chief sub came prowling out of her office
Speaker 2: at the Women's Weekly and said, how do you spell Burke?
Speaker 2: And I said, b u r k no, you don't.
Speaker 2: Or when she you know, she was really savage, and
Speaker 2: I know it's b o u r k and I
Speaker 2: and I never ever ever put anything into my copy
Speaker 2: like Burke without checking. It's a very important lesson when
Speaker 2: somebody really rouses on you. Oh boy, did I get
Speaker 2: in con trouble.
Speaker 1: Very true, the wrong spelling of it's and it's oh
Speaker 1: that's always driven me crazy.
Speaker 2: Well, I remember, I remember somebody at news court who
Speaker 2: was a terrible speller, and I even gave him a
Speaker 2: dictionary because I was trying to help him. And then
Speaker 2: he said to me, oh, miss Motrose. He said, I'm
Speaker 2: really sorry. He said, I just don't know how to
Speaker 2: sound the words, so I don't know what to look up.
Speaker 2: And I thought, oh my god.
Speaker 1: The education was going to say, that's the weird conversation
Speaker 1: that should be having in primary sit I'm not in
Speaker 1: a newsroom. Just a quick question, though, that sub editor
Speaker 1: that called you out on misspelling Burke. Were they still
Speaker 1: on staff when you came back as the editor in
Speaker 1: chief of the title.
Speaker 2: The chief sub but then that chief sub had become
Speaker 2: the news editor. And she was great. She helped me
Speaker 2: through in my early days.
Speaker 1: Going back to the blurring of the align between opinion
Speaker 1: and facts. Lee Sales gave the Andrew Oli Media Lecture
Speaker 1: last year and she also really talked about the declining
Speaker 1: trust in media, and she said some reporters prefer to
Speaker 1: be activists and crusaders rather than fact finders or straight reporters.
Speaker 1: And I think, as you've answered, their social media is
Speaker 1: the culprit. But my question would be for you for
Speaker 1: Lee Sales, I agree, I think that we absolutely because
Speaker 1: of social media, everyone now has got access to a megaphone.
Speaker 1: And it could be somebody banging on about politics on
Speaker 1: x which used to be known as Twitter, or it
Speaker 1: could be somebody doing a little post or video that
Speaker 1: goes viral on TikTok calling out what they perceived as
Speaker 1: bad customer service at the cafe. So everyone journalist or
Speaker 1: otherwise if they want it, has access to this sense
Speaker 1: of I'm furious about this, I'm going to talk about it.
Speaker 1: So for those in the media, How do we deal
Speaker 1: with this? Can we put the social media genie back
Speaker 1: in the bottle? Or do we have to accept that
Speaker 1: there's always now going to be a blurring of the
Speaker 1: lines between reporting an opinion, just to the fact that
Speaker 1: all of us, whether we work in the media or not,
Speaker 1: seen to be living in this relentless twenty four to
Speaker 1: seven opinion cycle.
Speaker 2: Well, if like the ABC, you have a policy about
Speaker 2: social media which everybody knows and which we enforce, you
Speaker 2: obey the rules and if you don't obey the rules,
Speaker 2: you pay the consequence. And I think in the end
Speaker 2: or media will have rules. I mean, I think the
Speaker 2: BBC has rules about social media. It's hard to enforce
Speaker 2: because you know, people argue about their privacy and I
Speaker 2: understand that. But if your opinion encroaches with your work
Speaker 2: of your employer, then I think you have a problem
Speaker 2: and you have to learn not to post not to
Speaker 2: post social media.
Speaker 1: I suppose I was thinking from a long perspective, like
Speaker 1: five ten years, if the culture hasn't changed and social
Speaker 1: media is still this polemic driven world that it is now,
Speaker 1: because that's the other thing social media might can't down
Speaker 1: a bit that sounds extremely naive and it could well
Speaker 1: be one of the dumbest predictions I've made. I'm not
Speaker 1: even saying it will happen, but I do think sometimes
Speaker 1: the heat can go out of things. I sometimes wonder
Speaker 1: if we do need to accept that this idea that
Speaker 1: we leave our opinions to the side is going to
Speaker 1: prove unrealistic for a lot of organizations in the long
Speaker 1: term if the culture doesn't change. It's a bit lighter.
Speaker 1: I thing light with juries. You know, juries always, as
Speaker 1: we know, is to be just don't consume any media.
Speaker 1: And it was an absolute travesty if you did. And
Speaker 1: then a few years ago I spoke about it on
Speaker 1: a panel. I think I was asked and I thought,
Speaker 1: I think we need to be a bit realistic that
Speaker 1: these days it's impossible to escape really, so maybe we
Speaker 1: need to change the way that we're treating juries in
Speaker 1: the legal system, and maybe we need to say you
Speaker 1: will see media, but you just need to not let
Speaker 1: that in any way influence your deliberation process when it
Speaker 1: comes to a verdict.
Speaker 2: Well, I can't predict the future, but you know they're
Speaker 2: all they're all situations that we will face obviously, and
Speaker 2: I think at the end of the day, the consumer
Speaker 2: is going to make a decision. So if you're if
Speaker 2: you're looking for news, you will go somewhere where they can.
Speaker 2: So it might be Stellar magazine. They might say, Stellar
Speaker 2: magazine can be trusted. I read them every every week,
Speaker 2: every week and it's all fine. Or we hope at
Speaker 2: the ABC it will be the ABC. I mean, we
Speaker 2: we really emphasize trust that the viewers. That strange trust is.
Speaker 2: Our trust levels are rising again, thank Evans. It's about
Speaker 2: eighty percent, and we're very proud of that trust and
Speaker 2: we're very and it's really foremost in our mind that
Speaker 2: we maintain it. But I think the consumer will make
Speaker 2: their minds up. They'll think, no, that's a bit of
Speaker 2: trivia's a that's a bit of rubbish. I think I'll
Speaker 2: only buy a Stellar magazine and I'll read what they've
Speaker 2: got to say because I know I know they'll be correct.
Speaker 1: That is a very wise.
Speaker 2: The public is not stupid, right, Yeah, well the public isn't.
Speaker 2: The public is not stupid. They will make their own
Speaker 2: minds up. They always do.
Speaker 1: We'll be back in a minute to find out. On
Speaker 1: the eve of International Women's Day, where the itis still
Speaker 1: encounters the Boys Club at this point in her career.
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you about your thoughts on the
Speaker 1: tone of public discourse today within the media, but really
Speaker 1: just within the culture and wider society. It seems to
Speaker 1: me that in the last ten years, in particular, again
Speaker 1: I hate to pin all the world's problems on social media,
Speaker 1: I personally think social media did create this where political
Speaker 1: disagreement or disagreement over everything that's been happening forever doubt,
Speaker 1: the right to politely disagree has become very rare. That
Speaker 1: if I have different opinions from you, then you're an
Speaker 1: absolute moron and we just can't engage in any world
Speaker 1: I have to yell at you, whether it's on this
Speaker 1: platform or that platform. You're clearly not worthy of me
Speaker 1: engaging in. I feel like the tolerance for any discrepancy
Speaker 1: in life experience or views has become very, very non existent.
Speaker 1: It feels like there's a hyperpartisan culture and it's only
Speaker 1: getting worse. What's your view?
Speaker 2: Only I agree with you? I mean, you can't disagree
Speaker 2: with anybody. I mean, if you do your racist or
Speaker 2: your sexist, or you know whatever, and you just think,
Speaker 2: goodness me, why can't we just agree to disagree. Why
Speaker 2: can't we just have a you know, you'd get a
Speaker 2: dinner party and say no, no, no, no, no, I
Speaker 2: don't agree with that. You know, the great robuts discussion
Speaker 2: would to follow and it was fantastic. But now you've
Speaker 2: got to be so careful because you might upset some one.
Speaker 2: I want to find about current discussion in the public.
Speaker 2: It's so uncivil, it's so it's so nasty. You just think,
Speaker 2: why is everyone so nasty? I think on social media
Speaker 2: because they're anonymous and they think they can say anything,
Speaker 2: which just think, how can you really be that vile?
Speaker 2: Do you go around Do you wake up in the
Speaker 2: morning thinking I'm feeling really vile, I'm going to go
Speaker 2: on social media and let it all hang out. I
Speaker 2: don't know what's happened to people. They need more things
Speaker 2: happening in their lives. I think I think they've got
Speaker 2: too much spare time. Maybe we have to be brave
Speaker 2: and just continue to disagree and not let the vocal
Speaker 2: minority drown out the vocal majority.
Speaker 1: Yes, because I mean disagreeing as you say, that's okay,
Speaker 1: it's not the end of the world. We have to
Speaker 1: disagree and then we move on and it doesn't mean
Speaker 1: that that person is inferior to us. It doesn't mean anything.
Speaker 1: We discuss it. We have a difference of opinion. You
Speaker 1: vote differently to me, we're going to vote in a
Speaker 1: different direction on the referendum, whatever it might be between
Speaker 1: two people or four people. Surely we have to go
Speaker 1: back to at least acknowledging and respecting that there's differences,
Speaker 1: rather than my side versus your side.
Speaker 2: That's right, it's always my side versus your sign. I
Speaker 2: think we have to all think about where we're heading
Speaker 2: and what we want out of life and discussion and
Speaker 2: what sort of world are we leaving the children.
Speaker 1: On a lighter note, mentioned Lee Sales in the OIE
Speaker 1: lecture last year. She also told a great anecdote about
Speaker 1: how she once parked in your car spot at the
Speaker 1: ABC because the staff car park was full, and she
Speaker 1: returned to find a beautifully written note under her windscreen
Speaker 1: wipe pat reading please don't in capital letters and double
Speaker 1: underlined park in my car spot again and staple two.
Speaker 1: It was a business card that read itcherbots Acob. Did
Speaker 1: you have cause to leave many notes like that?
Speaker 2: No? I didn't, And you know the clue is because
Speaker 2: the car park was full. She parked in my spot.
Speaker 2: So when she parked in my spot, there was nowhere
Speaker 2: for me to park. What's there? Was I angry? Yes?
Speaker 2: I was, Yes, I was. I left a note there
Speaker 2: and I parked her in. I parked her in actually,
Speaker 2: and then blow me down. I left before her. I
Speaker 2: don't think I told her I parked her in, but
Speaker 2: I left before her because she was on air. Was
Speaker 2: seven point thirty and so I think I left about
Speaker 2: seven and I thought, bloody hell, they're still here, and
Speaker 2: I was really drove off, and then it transpired. It
Speaker 2: was Lee, and apparently the bloke that the security guy
Speaker 2: was beside himself. Oh miss Sales, Oh miss Sales, it's you,
Speaker 2: she had to say. And of course then she did
Speaker 2: write to me, and you know that was fine. She
Speaker 2: didn't tell, she didn't say. One day I came in
Speaker 2: and the sign was up, car park full, and I
Speaker 2: was only coming in for a couple of hours to
Speaker 2: do something before I had to go somewhere else, and
Speaker 2: I thought, Lee's going to come in and she won't
Speaker 2: get a spot. So I rang her up, or I
Speaker 2: got my aaid, or I texted her. I come from
Speaker 2: what I did. I might have sent her a text
Speaker 2: saying car park's full, I'm going out whatever time and
Speaker 2: you may have my car park and will notify security.
Speaker 2: But I don't think she used it. But she didn't
Speaker 2: tell you that. No, no, no, I felt sorry for
Speaker 2: because you know, when the car park was full, it's
Speaker 2: impossible to find a park.
Speaker 1: A lot of people would of course be daunted by
Speaker 1: ite Butcher's Acob, do you consider yourself to be intimidating?
Speaker 2: No? Do you find me in timid? I mean, I.
Speaker 1: Definitely think that you have an aura about you that
Speaker 1: would make me think. I was walked into this studio
Speaker 1: today by lovely woman Maria, and you know, I was saying, oh,
Speaker 1: my hair's like a little bit messy, you know, And
Speaker 1: I'm not worried about cameras and things like that. I'm
Speaker 1: just thinking item might think.
Speaker 2: Sarah could come on, I'm here. You know me better
Speaker 2: than that.
Speaker 1: I think that you just bring something out in people.
Speaker 1: And I think it's what I was talking about a
Speaker 1: little bit before. I think it's just the airtkit And
Speaker 1: like I said, just that well matted. It all sounds
Speaker 1: so you know, sort of obsolete or something but it isn't.
Speaker 1: It's a quality I think that you definitely would inspire
Speaker 1: in certain people. I've really got to sort of bring
Speaker 1: my a game opposite.
Speaker 2: An please to hear it.
Speaker 1: This Friday, March eight, will be International Women's Day. Every year.
Speaker 1: As you know, Ita, we hear people questioning do we
Speaker 1: still really need an international Wednesday? What's your answer to that?
Speaker 1: As we prepare to market for twenty one, I think
Speaker 1: it's good to reflect on how far we've come, because
Speaker 1: a lot of younger women don't realize how far we
Speaker 1: have come and all the things that we've managed to
Speaker 1: change since women's liberation. And I think it's also timely
Speaker 1: to reflect on how far we have yet to go.
Speaker 1: I mean, certainly there's been improvement, and the government now
Speaker 1: has a national policy on gender equality, and I think
Speaker 1: that's a good thing because I think it's I think
Speaker 1: the progress is still too slow. I'd like to see
Speaker 1: fifty percent in everything. And the thing that really that
Speaker 1: I think men in particular have to absorb is that
Speaker 1: when we talk about women being blocked or being ignored,
Speaker 1: or their opinions being overlooked, or gender by happening at interviews,
Speaker 1: which it all does or men stealing their ideas. Your
Speaker 1: daughters are being much better educated. Do they want an
Speaker 1: equal playing field for their daughters when they go out
Speaker 1: into the world after their university degree at which they
Speaker 1: outnumber men, or do they not, or do they want
Speaker 1: them to be blocked? And I do think it's a
Speaker 1: male issue as well as a female issue, and we
Speaker 1: need to make sure that both boys and girls have
Speaker 1: equal opportunities, because I've got both, and you want of
Speaker 1: the opportunities to be there for both of them so
Speaker 1: that they can lead fulfilled lives. So I do think
Speaker 1: we still need them and need International Women's Day to
Speaker 1: reflect and pause about how far we've come and how
Speaker 1: far we still have to go. I'm in the fight
Speaker 1: for equality, and identifying as a feminist is certainly something
Speaker 1: that men and women have an equal role in. This
Speaker 1: notion that only women can speak to this issue, I
Speaker 1: think is nonsensical. I think all of us have a
Speaker 1: role to play in conversations of equality, and I think
Speaker 1: that feminism and gender equality, when you genuinely achieve it,
Speaker 1: benefits everyone Because, as you say to you are a
Speaker 1: mother to a son and a daughter. I have two sons,
Speaker 1: both of us. I know are passionate feminists. I don't
Speaker 1: wish that to be at the expense of my sons,
Speaker 1: and I know you didn't, but it never is. I've
Speaker 1: always thought it was ridiculous, this concept that the success
Speaker 1: of one gender has to come at the expense of another.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I think it's really important that women, and
Speaker 2: I find it extraordinary that I still have to say
Speaker 2: this today, that women realize how good they are, and
Speaker 2: a lot of women still don't. They are really good
Speaker 2: at what they do, and you still have to remind them.
Speaker 2: You still have to remind them every now and again.
Speaker 2: A woman that's quite high up the ladder and has
Speaker 2: all the potential of the world almost takes my breath
Speaker 2: away when I notice or she says something and I think,
Speaker 2: on my word, she doesn't realize how good she is.
Speaker 2: And so I go through my lecture. Do you realize
Speaker 2: how good you are? Do you realize what you could do?
Speaker 2: Do you realize what you've achieved? And you've just got
Speaker 2: a remind women they're really good at what they do,
Speaker 2: and you have to sometimes just give them a bit
Speaker 2: of a shove.
Speaker 1: Have you ever had that voice of self doubt that
Speaker 1: I think you very rightfully say a lot of women,
Speaker 1: myself included, definitely suffer from Has that ever existed throughout
Speaker 1: your life and your career?
Speaker 2: Not really. I mean I've taken roles and then thought,
Speaker 2: oh my god, what have I done? And then something
Speaker 2: inside of me says, you can do this. You know
Speaker 2: you can do this, and you are going to do it.
Speaker 2: So I have this sort of inner discussion with myself.
Speaker 2: But every now and again you think, ooh, what am
Speaker 2: I tagging on here? But that's a long time ago.
Speaker 2: I don't feel that any any longer. I suppose the
Speaker 2: more you go on and the more you do, the
Speaker 2: more at ease you are with the various things you
Speaker 2: take on.
Speaker 1: I know this really ties into this idea that as
Speaker 1: a female chair, you're still in a minority in this country.
Speaker 1: You've also said that the male network is very strong.
Speaker 1: That was a quote from our last conversation in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty two, and I did want to ask you about that.
Speaker 1: Is the Boys Club as strong as it once was?
Speaker 1: Do you still encounter it yourself at this point in
Speaker 1: your life?
Speaker 2: I think I have No. I don't encounter it, but
Speaker 2: I think I observe it. It's certainly still there. It's
Speaker 2: not as strong as it used to be. But I
Speaker 2: do think it's fair to say that some women are
Speaker 2: discriminated against because of their age, because of their their
Speaker 2: nationality there. You know, they may not they may have
Speaker 2: come from another country and their skin color. I think
Speaker 2: that bias still exists. Just have a look at the
Speaker 2: board makeup. You can see for yourself. If you have
Speaker 2: a look, mind you men, men suffer the same. You know,
Speaker 2: we we're not a great embrace of diversity in the boardroom.
Speaker 2: I don't think.
Speaker 1: How do we change that? Because this unconscious bias is real,
Speaker 1: some people still think that it doesn't exist. I mean,
Speaker 1: it absolutely is across all areas ethnicity, age. Of course,
Speaker 1: that's also something that you've going to be trailblazer in
Speaker 1: longevity in Korea, making sure that we're not missing people
Speaker 1: because of their gender, because of the color of their skin,
Speaker 1: because of their sexuality. How do we change this if
Speaker 1: it's not changing fast enough?
Speaker 2: Well, I presume the government with its national policy on
Speaker 2: gender equality, has something in mind. And I just think
Speaker 2: you need to keep educating the people on the people
Speaker 2: that choose boards or choose executives that diversity actually pays off.
Speaker 2: Because if you truly represent the Australian community, which is
Speaker 2: made up of many different cultures, then you've got a
Speaker 2: better chance of reaching them. It's a bit like it
Speaker 2: was really hard for women to get on boards and
Speaker 2: yet all the research showed you that companies that had
Speaker 2: three women on their boards had a better bottom line.
Speaker 2: And I always thought this was interesting, less fraud and
Speaker 2: you think you think, oh, hello, it's interesting. We must
Speaker 2: be very honest. Yeah, it was very It was imporced.
Speaker 1: So it literally pays off to be better support than women.
Speaker 1: As I have mentioned, you are on the cover of
Speaker 1: Stella today, beautiful shuit. You are no stranger to a
Speaker 1: magazine cover and a big shoot. You very much. I think,
Speaker 1: in my view, captured in what I see as a
Speaker 1: very feminine Eis style. You've never shied away from that.
Speaker 1: I've always noticed that you have fabulous nails all the time,
Speaker 1: you wear beautiful jewelry. Do you have to look like that? No,
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that you have to look like that.
Speaker 1: Were always accused you have to look a certain way
Speaker 1: to be on the cover of Stella. Not true. But
Speaker 1: we do see a lot of strong, successful women in
Speaker 1: public life and in positions of leadership that feel like, oh,
Speaker 1: I have to, you know, not be too feminine. If
Speaker 1: I wear pink, I'm going to look a bit silly.
Speaker 1: If I have my nails painted, everyone was going to
Speaker 1: think I'm a bit silly. Tell me a little bit
Speaker 1: about that.
Speaker 2: I'm female. I mean, I don't have a problem with
Speaker 2: being a woman, and I think if you have to
Speaker 2: sacrifice your femininity to get on, you're failing. You're failing.
Speaker 2: I mean, I love my nails. I spend a lot
Speaker 2: of time looking after them. I think well kept nails
Speaker 2: are a sign of elegance, I suppose, and I don't
Speaker 2: think about it. I don't mind how anybody. I do
Speaker 2: mind how people dress when they come to work. They
Speaker 2: should look like they're coming to work, not like so
Speaker 2: they're going to the beach. But you know, in executive roles,
Speaker 2: I haven't got a who. I don't mind what anybody
Speaker 2: looks like. You make your own choice. I think it's
Speaker 2: fair to say I'm a feminine woman, and I like
Speaker 2: being who I am and what I am.
Speaker 1: It shouldn't be such a remind trait that I have
Speaker 1: to comment on it. But I think it is still
Speaker 1: probably something that is worth commenting on because I think
Speaker 1: that there are women I still hear it. Sometimes we go, oh,
Speaker 1: I just think about wear those heels. Maybe they won't
Speaker 1: take me seriously. It's still something that exists.
Speaker 2: Everybody takes you seriously if you deliver the goods all
Speaker 2: you've got to do.
Speaker 1: And when we come back, we'll find out what at
Speaker 1: eighty two Ita, Butchro's plans to do next? Ita, what
Speaker 1: next to you personally and professionally when you finish up
Speaker 1: as chair later this week?
Speaker 2: Well, doors keep opening and they are opening. But I
Speaker 2: recently took on the chair of the Advisory Council of
Speaker 2: the Center for Healthy Brain Aging at the at UNSW
Speaker 2: at the University of New South Wales, and I'm interested
Speaker 2: in that because that's where they do a lot of
Speaker 2: dementia and cognitive research. And you know, I've got a
Speaker 2: background in that through my work with ALZ I'm as
Speaker 2: Australia and now Dementia Australia. I'm interested in health and
Speaker 2: there's a lot of research going on there and I
Speaker 2: would love to be a part of or contribute to
Speaker 2: a cure for dementia or a really effective slowing down
Speaker 2: of dementia and so I thought, yeah, I'd really like
Speaker 2: to work with it. I really liked that job, so
Speaker 2: I've taken that on. And I've still got other courses
Speaker 2: that I work with Macular Degeneration Foundation and the Osteoporosis Foundation,
Speaker 2: and i still work for Dementia Australia. So I think
Speaker 2: I would probably be looking at some something else to
Speaker 2: do with publishing, but I haven't made my mind up yet.
Speaker 1: Last time we spoke, I said, will you be at
Speaker 1: the ABC when it turns one hundred hundred fifteen? Probably
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty is not realistic, but one hundred see,
Speaker 1: possibly might extend your term. Another couple of times, do
Speaker 1: you said that you might write a book.
Speaker 2: I haven't made my mind up because I just can't
Speaker 2: because I'm so busy finalizing. Well, I'm almost running out
Speaker 2: of things to do, but I have been really busy
Speaker 2: finalizing everything. We had the farewell dinners the other night,
Speaker 2: which was lovely, and I just feel I need to
Speaker 2: take a breath. So I'm just going to take a
Speaker 2: breath and see what else happens. I've got five grandchildren now,
Speaker 2: and I quite like spending time with them. The girls
Speaker 2: discovered that they like shopping as much as Grandma does.
Speaker 2: And it's an evil trio really when we go out.
Speaker 1: Oh, I can imagine. Yes, that's a very you know,
Speaker 1: good to be enlisting. I think your grandmother in who
Speaker 1: wouldn't want that? I mean it to your eighty two, which,
Speaker 1: by your estimate makes you a wicked adolescent. Because when
Speaker 1: I interviewed the first time in twenty thirteen, because you
Speaker 1: don't know what I mean, you told me that you
Speaker 1: would define elderly as ninety plus and so at that time,
Speaker 1: I think you were seventy and I said, well, where
Speaker 1: do you fit in seventy And you said, I'm a
Speaker 1: wicked adolescent.
Speaker 2: Well, I think I still am. I'm just slightly older.
Speaker 1: I think you'll be a wicked adolescent until forever. Do
Speaker 1: you think that you'll miss the relentless nature of something
Speaker 1: like being a chair though? Do you see a massive
Speaker 1: job like that in your future in terms of all
Speaker 1: consuming or do you think you'll go back to having
Speaker 1: what you've had at other points in your career, like
Speaker 1: what they call now portfolio career, where it is you
Speaker 1: know this work here, this work there.
Speaker 2: I'm just going to do whatever I want to do
Speaker 2: with no repercussions, And I'm going to have opinions because
Speaker 2: I'm entitled to have opinions, and to hell with what
Speaker 2: everybody thinks about them.
Speaker 1: No, I love that. Okay, well, we will pick this
Speaker 1: podcast up again when you are wanting to speak a
Speaker 1: bit more about your opinions. I don't have to ask you.
Speaker 1: From an outsider's perspective, it would genuinely seem like you
Speaker 1: really have achieved everything that you could hope. I don't
Speaker 1: say that glibly. I really do mean that. I do
Speaker 1: think a lot of people would think that you've spoken
Speaker 1: about the interests that you have in health and the
Speaker 1: work you'd still like to do there. And I know
Speaker 1: that you have certainly worked in the are essay of
Speaker 1: research into dementia for a long time. Now, are there
Speaker 1: things that you still feel that you want to achieve?
Speaker 2: I feel somewhere deep inside of me that there's something
Speaker 2: else waiting for me, and I don't know what it is,
Speaker 2: but I often feel like that. I often feel like
Speaker 2: that when I'm in this situation, you sort of think, well,
Speaker 2: I've done a lot. I mean, I can see I've
Speaker 2: done a lot, and I've loved it all. But somewhere
Speaker 2: deep inside of me. I think there's something else. Whether
Speaker 2: it's going to be as big as chairing there, I
Speaker 2: don't think it would be. I don't think it would
Speaker 2: be something like chairing an organization like the ABC. I
Speaker 2: think that's once in a lifetime opportunity. It's a mighty
Speaker 2: organization and I'm really honored to have had the chance
Speaker 2: to do to be the chair. But I think there's something.
Speaker 2: I'll let you know when I find it.
Speaker 1: Please do and please come back on something to talk about,
Speaker 1: because I think you've been very forthcoming, and I always
Speaker 1: feel when I'm sitting opposite Eierbchros that there's plenty of opinions.
Speaker 1: So I cannot wait to hear iter unfiltered, when you
Speaker 1: can just say whatever it is that you like. Yes,
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed that epis of the summer series
Speaker 1: or something to talk about. Make sure you're following us
Speaker 1: if you're not already, because we'll be revisiting some of
Speaker 1: your favorite episodes of the past year until we're back
Speaker 1: with a brand new episode on January twelfth.