WEBVTT - Summer series: in conversation with Ita Buttrose 0:00:06.440 --> 0:00:09.560 Hello, and welcome to Something to Talk About Burstella Podcast. 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:12.960 I'm Sarah Lamarquin, your host, and this year I have 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:15.120 had the privilege of sitting down with some of the 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:18.720 biggest names in the country. Because when Estrala's celebrities are 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:21.400 ready to talk, they come to Something to talk About. 0:00:22.120 --> 0:00:24.760 We're continuing to publish across the summer break, and we'll 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:27.840 be back with a brand new episode on January twelfth. 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:30.560 In the meantime, each day for the next two weeks, 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:33.320 we'll be revisiting some of your favorite episodes from the 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:35.720 past year, and I'm happy to report that there have 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:38.760 been a lot of popular episodes, but out of the 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:41.920 fifty we released in twenty twenty four, we've narrowed it 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:45.880 down to ten conversations to revisit over the summer break, 0:00:46.120 --> 0:00:48.879 and today you'll hear from Aita Bartro's. I spoke to 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:51.919 her on International Women's Day back in March, just as 0:00:51.960 --> 0:00:54.160 she was preparing to step down from her role of 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:57.120 chair of the ABC at the age of eighty two. 0:00:57.720 --> 0:01:01.040 There were a lot of takeaways from this conversation, including 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:04.040 the inside story of what happened when Lee Sales once 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:07.760 parked in Ida's car spot at the ABC. So without 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:13.720 further ado, here's Ita Ita. If I were to read 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:16.400 out your CV in full, all we would have time 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:19.559 for in this conversation is for me to then say 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:23.480 thank you Aita, buttro's Acob for coming into the studio 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:28.679 and goodbye. But most recently, of course, has been your 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:31.839 five year tenure as chair of the ABC, which comes 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:35.199 to an end later this week, which is largely why 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:38.160 I finally convinced you to come into the studio and 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:41.320 talk to me for something to talk about. Now, our rollers, 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:44.959 high profile and complex as chair of the national broadcaster, 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:49.360 was always going to bring unique challenges, very unique eyes 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:52.320 and lows, but perhaps none more so than in recent 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:56.320 events following the termination of Antoinette Letou from a short 0:01:56.400 --> 0:02:00.480 term contract filling in on ABC Radio Sydney latellast year 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:04.200 after she shared a post on social media about the 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:07.360 war in Gaza. Now that matter is currently before the 0:02:07.360 --> 0:02:10.040 Fair Work Commission, So I understand that you may be 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:11.880 limited in what you can say. 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:15.880 Not only limited, I can't talk about it, but can. 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:19.359 I ask you how you're feeling about such a controversial 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:23.400 chapter of the ABC's recent history, coinciding with the end 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:25.799 of your term. Has it taken a little bit of 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:28.160 the shine of the past five years. 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:30.239 I think you're trying to find a very clever way 0:02:30.400 --> 0:02:32.400 to get me to talk about what I can't talk about. 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:34.840 I simply cannot talk about that matter. 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:38.760 Well, I was going to ask if there was any 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:42.360 response that you wanted to say to accusations that have 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:46.200 been leveled by various members of the public and from 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:50.680 staff within the ABC that this incident has shown that 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:54.240 the National Broadcaster can be influenced by powerful lobby groups 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:56.639 its independence is undermined. 0:02:57.280 --> 0:03:00.200 Any comment on that, Well, I think the role of 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:03.560 independence of the National Broadcaster is paramount to what we 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:09.320 do and it's enshrined in legislation. And Look, I've been 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:12.320 working in high profile roles in the media for a 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:15.960 very long period of time and I've received lots of 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:22.280 letters and emails over that time and the ABC and 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:26.760 I have never have never been influenced by outside lobbyists, 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:32.000 people passionate about their particular causes, politicians, commercial interests, you 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:35.600 name it. The ABC has never caved in. I've never 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:38.760 caved in, and neither as the managing director nor the board. 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:43.760 We're very passionate about the independence of the role of 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:47.880 the ABC, and we're very conscious about duties as board members. 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:53.240 I mean, there are inevitabilities in life. Everyone says death taxes, 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:56.080 I would say if you live in Australia. Also constant 0:03:56.680 --> 0:04:00.520 arguing about the ABC from all sides of politics. Different 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:04.160 debates go on over the years. All the ABC is 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:08.560 left leaning. There's other people say all the ABC's at 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:11.080 the whim of whoever is in government. It's a tale 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:14.400 as old as time in many chairs before you have 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:17.360 also well literally sat in that chair and had to 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:19.720 contend with this. The last time you and I spoke, 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:23.520 Aita was the ninetieth anniversary of the ABC in twenty 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:25.800 twenty two, and I think at that time what we 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:29.400 were talking about was there been criticisms from the Liberal 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:34.480 Party that the ABC was being not supportive enough of 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:37.240 the government, and at that time you said, it is 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:39.960 not the role of the ABC. It's not my job 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:43.320 as chair to be keeping either side any Prime minister, 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:44.560 any opposition leader. 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:48.360 That's true. I mean the role of the ABC chair 0:04:48.440 --> 0:04:51.680 is not to be friendly, not to be necessarily unfriendly, 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:57.200 but certainly not to be friendly to politicians, whatever party 0:04:57.200 --> 0:05:00.680 they represent. That's not the role our role is to 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:04.040 entertain and inform and educate this round in public, and 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:06.320 we do that by maintaining our independence. 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:10.599 So I certainly don't imagine that what's happened of late 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:13.640 is new for you, in that it is an ongoing 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:16.360 conversation and it certainly will be for your successor, and 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:19.640 will probably be when the ABC is celebrating its one 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:24.320 hundredth and ninetieth in a century. But I also wanted 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:26.720 to ask it is just a matter of public record, 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:29.360 Ita that it was August of last year that you 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:32.400 announced that you would not seek a second term as 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:36.679 ABC chair when your five year ends in March twenty 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:40.520 twenty four, and yet despite that being out there six 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:42.599 months ago, I think that's when I first started the 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:45.479 conversation about could we do a cover of Stella and 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:48.880 a conversation on this podcast to mark the end of 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:53.640 your term. Recently, the Prime Minister had a press conference 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:57.760 to announce your successor, Kim Williams. That was reported by 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:02.960 some media outlets as so Anthony Albanezi announces Isia Butchro's 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:07.400 will leave ABC chair position. I was watching Breakfast TV 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:10.760 and I saw one commentator because they had all crossed 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:14.840 to this what appeared to be a fairly quickly called 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:17.839 press conference from the Prime Minister. I saw one commentator 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:20.719 speculate that, oh, well, this must be because of the 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:26.680 recent controversy. Is this frustrating knowing that you, as I 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:29.280 say it's on the public record, decided more than six 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:32.039 months ago that you would not be seeking a second term. 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:35.440 Well, some people are members of the media, and I 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:38.640 would suggest to you that they're not well enough informed. 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:41.800 And if I was going to be critical of younger 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:44.680 members of the media and maybe older, but I suspect 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:48.159 we're talking about younger is that they don't research well 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:52.480 enough the topics on which they're going to make pronouncements. 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:57.000 And you know, I did notify the government and the 0:06:57.040 --> 0:07:00.279 Minister Michelle Roland in August last year that I was 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:03.279 not going to seek another term. I think five years 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:06.520 is quite a long time to serve the ab thing. 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:08.480 I know some chairs have gone on and done a 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:11.560 second term, but I'm conscious that I am a woman 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:14.640 at a certain age and despite the President of the 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:18.560 United States Joe Biden, thinking he should run another term, 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:22.400 I don't think he should. I think sometimes you need 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:26.680 to examine yourself and say, well, I am a person 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:31.880 of a certain age and everything's fine and cognitively I'm good, 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:38.200 so the doctors say. But still it's just weigh it 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:41.640 up another five years, what would it be like? And 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:44.200 I think there's a time when you have to know 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:47.360 in yourself when you need to step aside, and I 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:49.640 felt that was that time. So it had nothing to 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:53.800 do with any current events that are going on, and 0:07:55.080 --> 0:08:00.440 it really just reminds me of how adequately trained young josts. 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:04.480 Yes, well, I have to say I don't disagree with that. 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:07.520 I'm always reluctant as I'm sure at some level you 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:11.400 are to as ultimately journalists to give out about the media, 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:14.640 because the truth is all parts of the media, commercial 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:18.760 or publicly funded, are facing very challenging times under resource. 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:22.160 But I agree that is absolutely a lack of research. 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:25.240 And that's got to be the difference between media and 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:28.880 TikTok is that we as journalists do our research and 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:31.720 that if you are writing that headline, that basic fact 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:35.680 checking has happened. But for you, is there a partner? 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:38.200 I absolutely understand. That's why I wanted to use this 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:42.440 opportunity to clarify that you were already leaving that was 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:44.720 a decision made a long time ago for the reasons 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:47.360 that you've just articulated. And I really hope Joe Biden 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:51.040 does listen to this, because I agree strongly, by the way, 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:54.439 but that's okay. I warn't sidebar this into conversation about 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:59.200 US politics. But if there had been scope, and there isn't. 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:02.200 So this is a hyphathetical, but to say, actually, I'm 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:03.840 going to finish up at the end of the year 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:05.679 because I just feel I'm dealing with a little bit 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:08.720 of unfinished business right now. Is there a part of 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:11.160 you that just feels in terms of legacy and all 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:13.240 that you have achieved over the last five years that 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:15.920 I want to ask you about that there is going 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:19.280 to be a perception for some that it was unfinished 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:21.720 business and you were leaving at a difficult time. 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:26.760 Well, if that's their perception, they're wrong. I mean, I 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:29.839 can't help. I can't help what happens in the time 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:33.280 that I've told the Minister I'm not renewing my term, 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:38.640 and what's going on now. The ABC is never still. 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:42.360 There's always something happening at the ABC. Everybody has a 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:46.000 viewpoint about the ABC, and that's right and proper, and 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:50.160 so they should, and you know, anyone that draws a 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:53.720 different conclusion that you know, it's just happened and it's 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:57.160 coincidental that you know my term is coming to an end. 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:01.079 Kim william was a weird, very robust chair. I don't 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:03.920 think I don't think there's a I don't think he's 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:08.120 a shrinking violet at all. And I'm sure he liked me. 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:11.680 Is used to this kind of activity in the media 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:14.360 because he too has a media pedigree, if I can 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:17.280 put it like that, And I am so glad the 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:21.440 current government continued to put a chair in with media 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:25.280 experience because I think that I was the first chair 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:29.839 that had extensive media experience like I've got, and Kim 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:32.720 Williams is similar and that can only be good for 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:33.800 the National Broadcaster. 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:37.320 Do you have any advice for Kim Williams. 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:39.920 I wouldn't dream of giving Kim Williams advice. He's his 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:40.640 own man. 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:44.679 Did anybody give you advice when you were appointed to No. 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:47.280 You know they did, I mean listeners. Did you know 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:50.079 in the park when I was walking the dog? However, 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:54.920 don't change this, don't change that, but any listeners, No, 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:56.520 nobody gave me any advice. At all. 0:10:57.120 --> 0:11:00.200 Everyone does have an opinion on the ABC just said that, 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:02.280 whether it is somebody that you're walking past in the 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:06.000 park or somebody on the website formerly known as Twitter, 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:09.679 How has that been for you? Because my priority as 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:12.400 a journalist, and I think should be for all journalists, 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:16.440 is ultimately to the audience, wherever it is. The people 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:18.640 that listen to your podcasts, of people that watch your show, 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:23.160 the people that read your magazine, are reading your story online, 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:24.280 whatever platform I have. 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:27.720 It's always the audience. It's always the audience, whatever it is, 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:29.520 whether it's print, radio, TV. 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:32.560 I mean, you've worked for a lot of people, and 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:35.079 you've had people work for you over the years where 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:38.800 everyone is charming and with their opinion and often you 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:41.720 just have to cut it out as an editor in chief. 0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:46.640 But being chair of a public broadcaster, I imagine has brought 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:51.679 a level of everyone wanting to give you their two cents, 0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:54.960 but also some people thinking, well, as a taxpayer, I 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:57.280 have a stake in this, and you have to actually 0:11:57.320 --> 0:11:59.719 take my two cents on board. Is that anything that 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:01.880 you'd ever really dealt with in your career? 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:02.480 Sure? 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:03.120 This role? 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:06.160 Sure? I mean people used to think they had the 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:09.040 right to tell me something about the Women's Weekly, something 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:13.480 about Cleo, something about the telegraphs. That's fine, that's fine, 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:17.240 that's feedback, and it's sometimes it's very useful. I don't 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:21.000 mind it at all, and usually I make some sort 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:24.480 of acknowledgment of their letters. But an acknowledgment of a 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:28.160 letter or an email does not mean I'm endorsing whatever 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:31.040 it is they're writing to me about. It's simply being 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:34.040 courteous and saying, right, I've got it, I've noted it, 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:37.760 I've read what you had to say. I'm sending it 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:40.480 to this department or that department or someone else. You know, 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:43.280 whatever it is. 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:45.880 Is that something through your whole career you've done. Because 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:48.280 I ignore a lot of emails, and I'm not proud of it, 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:52.760 but I do sometimes I think about you, and I 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:55.439 think a bit eighter right back. I don't think about 0:12:55.440 --> 0:12:57.840 that all the time. Don't worry, but there are moments 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:01.840 where I will think, this is probably not okay, that 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:05.760 I'm just ignoring or ninety nine percent of my emails 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:07.280 are sitting in the drafts folder. 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:11.720 Well, you probably don't have executive assistance or secretaries like 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:14.880 I used to, and they have been very useful to 0:13:14.960 --> 0:13:18.000 me because I could sometimes dictate a reply in the days, 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:21.560 in the days when people did shorthand and shorthand. Now 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:24.000 they don't, so you tend to sort of just put 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:26.280 a note down about which way you want to go. 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:28.600 I mean, I'm sure that's part of it, but I 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:33.480 do really think, yes, certainly, you know, there would be 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:37.040 a multitude of administrative reasons that I don't, but I 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:39.080 think that a big part of the difference is just 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:44.120 that courteous commitment that you have and you are. It's 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:46.880 very some people would think old fashion phrase, but you're 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:50.960 just extremely well mannered. I can't imagine you not engaging 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:51.960 or acknowledging well. 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:54.600 You know, sometimes people write to me about very intimate 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:58.440 things in their life. It could be about a domestic 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:05.680 violence issue, or a death in the family, a troubled child, 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:10.840 a mental health issue, a dementia issue. Those are very 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:14.240 different from people that are writing to criticize something we're 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:17.240 doing in the ABC or to lobby me. And those letters, yes, 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:21.040 I do. I do respond to them personally because they've 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:24.880 written because they need a helping hand. And you know, 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:27.400 I'm in the fortunate position because I've worked in a 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:31.680 lot of these areas where I can actually suggest. I 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:33.760 never tell them this is what they should be doing, 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:37.040 but I can suggest where they might seek help, where 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:40.880 they might find counseling. Sometimes people do reach out to 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:43.960 people they don't really know, but they think they know 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:48.480 because of your profile. And I think, of course you're 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:50.760 going to help them, of course, because if it were 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:54.600 me and I was in that desperate sort of situation, 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:57.680 I'd be hoping someone would give me a hand. 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:02.920 Absolutely, I will say I do right back to anyone 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:06.760 in that situation as well. And I think it's actually 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:11.440 it's such a privilege of journalism, isn't it. Ultimately, if 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:15.480 somebody has heard or read or seen something and they 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:20.160 think I might be ready to talk about that, I 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:23.120 want to tell this person. I think of it some 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:26.280 ways as that disclosure where then we are essentially the 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:29.000 referral service. As you say, We're not there to actually 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:31.680 be the advice. But it's just that privilege of knowing 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:36.080 whatever it is has sparked somebody to actually reach out. 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:38.880 I think it's trust. They feel they can trust you, 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:42.080 they can trust you to give them a sensible sort 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:42.800 of reply. 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:48.320 Let me ask you about the five years at the ABC. 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:52.800 What for you have been some of the standout memories, 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:57.520 What have been the greatest moments? As you leave on 0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:00.880 your final day later this week, what do you think 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:04.080 you'll be most proud of and would there be any 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:05.800 do overs or regrets? 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:10.120 Well, I think I think the passion of them, of 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:15.120 the staff for public broadcasting, they are really passionate about 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:18.520 it and it's hard to ignore. I think that when 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:29.680 I arrived, I bought rigor, stability and governance because the 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:38.520 ABC had suffered organizational management problems of a strange nature 0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:41.800 where you had a chair and a managing director who 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:45.400 were not talking to each other directly. They were talking 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:49.240 through other people. Now, you cannot run any organization, let 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:53.200 alone the ABC if the chair and the managing director 0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:56.760 are not talking, And you think, how on earth did 0:16:56.800 --> 0:16:59.920 this develop? And I never read anything about this situation. 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:03.120 I never got an inkling of it from the government, 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:05.919 and so you were right. When I walked in the 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:11.720 door at Ultimo, where the ABC's headquarters are, I thought, oh, 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:15.639 this place feels terrible. You know there was It just 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:20.560 didn't feel right. And then I heard the story and 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:23.160 I got more details of what had been going on 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:27.040 the board was shattered. They'd had to appear before Senate, 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:32.280 estimates Senate just for the Senate. They had to appear 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:35.080 before the Senate, and you know, and that was a 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:38.200 very sober experience for them all, and scary really because 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:42.159 they're not high profile. They weren't necessarily high profile, and 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:46.159 they weren't suddenly used to being in the limelight. And 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:48.840 the management team was in a state of shock. I 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:52.040 think that's fair to say. I mean, nobody quite knew 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:55.600 what was happening. And I could sense all of this, 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:58.639 and I'm thinking, oh, hello, I'm going to be busy. 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:02.840 And so what I did was trying to restore I'm 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:07.560 not only tried I did. I restored stability. I reorganized 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:10.639 the board. I put the governance back into the organization, 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:15.760 and I think I think that was a very positive 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:18.280 thing that I did during my tenure. We now make 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:21.439 content for digital, whereas before we used to make it 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:25.359 for broadcast. That's been a big change. The government, the 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:30.399 then government, which was the Coalition government, we're keen for 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:35.160 the ABC to move. They wanted us to move completely 0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:39.679 entirely out of Ultimore, but we agreed that perhaps a 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:42.840 percentage of staff, and so I said to the then 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:47.240 Communications Minister Paul Fletcher, well, I'm thinking of moving to 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:51.159 paramatter and he said, oh, I didn't realize you were 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:55.120 thinking like that, and I said, why not. I said, 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:57.720 I've worked in paramatter. I know what's going on up there. 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:02.760 It's fantastic. And so we said about organizing a moved 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:06.359 paramatter and that will take place in what it should 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:09.399 happen in April May this year. That's it's all going. Well. 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:14.600 I'm really sorry. It's a lang Walker Corporation building and 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:19.080 lang took me through it on our floor when on 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:22.000 my first visited, and I'm so sorry he died recently. 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:26.960 He was he was a really special bloke, very dynamic. 0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:30.920 What else have I been up to. I think I've 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:33.800 encouraged the five year Plan so everybody knows what we're doing, 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:37.639 the government as well as ourselves. I think those are 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:40.920 the most important things I got up to. There's so many. 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:44.160 There's so many really, but you know when you try 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:47.240 to isolate them in an interview, suddenly think, well, what 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:47.920 have I been doing? 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:50.679 And five years is a long time, and I mean 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:52.640 there's been a change of government, there's been a little 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:56.720 thing called COVID, will not come and gone, but it's certainly. 0:19:56.440 --> 0:19:58.960 COVID was a big challenge for all of this, all 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:01.960 of us, and especially us, you know, because we're broadcasters 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:05.080 and we're twenty four to seven. But somehow we managed 0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:07.560 to keep it all going. We managed to keep it 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:11.320 all going. The staff was fantastic. They were fantastic, you know, 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:14.040 they were determined to keep it going, and we came 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:14.760 through COVID. 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:18.280 What about the doovers or regrets or is that even 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:21.000 anything that you think about. 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:25.040 I don't have regrets. I don't have regrets. You can't 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:29.800 change anything you've done, you know. You just you make 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:32.680 decisions and you hope to God they're going to work out. 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:34.960 You make them for all the best reasons in the world. 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:42.120 We've had board changes, we've had you know, stuff, difficulties, challenges, 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:46.480 and you weather them out. You just think, all right, well, 0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:49.400 I'll just see what happens here, and then you try 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:53.080 and give advice because it chairs you know, it's a 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:58.879 strategic role. But obviously I have a lot of experience, 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:02.679 there's very little. I haven't an accountant really when you 0:21:02.720 --> 0:21:05.480 think about it. When I think about it, and you know, 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:09.000 sometimes I can say, well, have you thought of have 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:12.960 you thought of? And what about? What about? And have 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:14.840 you thought of? It's a very good way to get 0:21:14.840 --> 0:21:16.480 into a conversation to give advice. 0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:20.120 Is that a phrase that you found you've used throughout 0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:22.720 your recent career or particularly as a chair. 0:21:23.320 --> 0:21:25.880 Oh, I think I think it might crop up more 0:21:25.880 --> 0:21:29.400 than I more than I realized, you know, because I've 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:33.520 been doing some mentoring of young women in marketing roles, 0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:37.560 one in China, one in Japan, and two here in Australia, 0:21:37.880 --> 0:21:40.560 and it's been really interesting. I was a bit worried 0:21:40.560 --> 0:21:44.480 at first that, you know, I hadn't really done I'd 0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:48.479 done mentoring, but not specifically this kind of work, and 0:21:48.560 --> 0:21:51.920 I thought, oh, I won I wonder if I should 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:55.840 be burning up on something. But when I was doing them, 0:21:55.880 --> 0:21:59.320 all I thought, this is this is terrific. I know, 0:21:59.560 --> 0:22:01.439 I know the answer. So I've been through all of 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:05.680 this and I've really enjoyed the experience. Fantasic. It's nice 0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:06.439 sharing knowledge. 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:09.960 Actually, absolutely, I can't believe that you would even doubt that. 0:22:10.080 --> 0:22:13.120 I can't really think, I mean, talk about winning the lottery, 0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:17.160 you're forgetting artel butchers as a mentor, I would think this, I. 0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:19.320 Know, but You've just got to be sure that you 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:21.360 know everything that you're going to be asked. I mean, 0:22:22.200 --> 0:22:25.040 I'm a very hard taskmaster on myself. 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:30.600 In twenty twenty two, you delivered the annual Andrew Ollie 0:22:30.680 --> 0:22:34.359 Media Lecture. Part of it that you spoke about that 0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:37.080 night item was that are we of the media as 0:22:37.119 --> 0:22:41.960 critical of ourselves as we should be. Good journalists always 0:22:41.960 --> 0:22:46.280 will be societies factseekers and truth tellers. It's never about 0:22:46.320 --> 0:22:48.960 lecturing the public on what they should think. Good journalism 0:22:49.400 --> 0:22:53.639 is about reporting just the facts, not opinion. I interviewed 0:22:53.680 --> 0:22:56.359 you later that year, as I mentioned earlier, for the 0:22:56.440 --> 0:22:59.639 ninetieth anniversary, and asked you about that, and at that 0:22:59.720 --> 0:23:02.240 time you said, I've always thought journalists need to be 0:23:02.640 --> 0:23:05.760 a political We're meant to be unbiased. We're meant to 0:23:05.800 --> 0:23:08.400 deal with facts and not opinions. The moment we started 0:23:08.400 --> 0:23:11.280 dishing out bylines as though everyone had an entitlement to 0:23:11.359 --> 0:23:14.879