WEBVTT - The MAGA breakup: Why Tucker Carlson turned on Trump

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<v Speaker 1>It was a relationship that saw both Donald Trump and

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<v Speaker 1>Tucker Caulson rise to power.

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<v Speaker 2>You and I and everyone else who supported him. He

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<v Speaker 2>wrote speeches forum, I campaigned for him. I mean, were

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<v Speaker 2>implicated and this for sure in very small ways, but

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<v Speaker 2>in real ways, you and me and millions of people

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<v Speaker 2>like us are the reason this is happening right.

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<v Speaker 1>Now now that Tucker Trump romance is officially over.

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<v Speaker 2>So I do think it's like a moment to wrestle

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<v Speaker 2>with our own consciences. You know, we'll be tormented by

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<v Speaker 2>it for a long time. I will be.

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<v Speaker 1>Conservative media powerhouse. Tucker Culson has offered this apology to

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<v Speaker 1>voters for backing the president as their relationship turned sour.

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<v Speaker 2>And I want to say I'm sorry for misleading people.

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<v Speaker 2>It was not intentional, That's all I'm saying.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Nicole Johnston and you're listening to seven AM today.

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<v Speaker 1>Jason Zangly, staff writer for The New Yorker, on the

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<v Speaker 1>end of Tucker and Trump and what it means for

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<v Speaker 1>the MAGA movement. It's Thursday, April thirty. Jason. To start off,

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<v Speaker 1>you met Tucker Carlson decades ago when you were an intern.

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<v Speaker 1>He was a reporter. What was he like and why

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<v Speaker 1>has he gone on to become just such a big

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<v Speaker 1>deal in America since then?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, he's someone has been around for a long time.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, he was a very successful magazine writer as

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<v Speaker 3>a young person, and then he moved into television and

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<v Speaker 3>he was very successful on television.

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<v Speaker 2>Good Evening and welcome to Tucker Carlson tonight. Imagine being

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<v Speaker 2>a historian one hundred years agow trying to figure out

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<v Speaker 2>what happened.

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<v Speaker 3>He had some pretty big career setbacks where he got

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<v Speaker 3>canceled from his cable news shows, and you had some

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<v Speaker 3>other sort of mishaps. But he's someone who just kind

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<v Speaker 3>of hung around, and so I think he's a familiar

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<v Speaker 3>figure to people here. And he's also he's reinvented himself

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<v Speaker 3>several times, and he's really he's very good at sort

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<v Speaker 3>of managing to either find himself in or insert himself

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<v Speaker 3>into the center of the action.

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<v Speaker 1>So, Jason, can we take a look at the history

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<v Speaker 1>of the relationship now between Trump and Tucker Carlson. When

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<v Speaker 1>did Tucker first come across Trump and what did he

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<v Speaker 1>think of him in the early days.

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<v Speaker 3>So Trump has been around obviously longer than Tucker and also,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, similarly, like has had lots of ups and downs,

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<v Speaker 3>but always kind of finds himself, you know, at the

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<v Speaker 3>center of the action. When Tucker was on cable news,

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<v Speaker 3>Tucker made this joke about Trump having bad hair, and

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<v Speaker 3>Trump left Tucker. Trump and Tucker never talked before, but

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<v Speaker 3>Trump called Tucker and left him a message on his

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<v Speaker 3>answering machine. Tucker didn't answer, and the message was, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>you might have better hair than me, but I get

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<v Speaker 3>more pussy than you do.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow.

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<v Speaker 3>And I guess that in a weird way. One Tucker

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<v Speaker 3>over he found that to be kind of charming in

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<v Speaker 3>its own way. And you know, they circled around each

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<v Speaker 3>other for a number of years and just you know,

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<v Speaker 3>they kind of vaguely knew each other, but it wasn't

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<v Speaker 3>really until Trump ran for president. People don't remember this

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<v Speaker 3>even in the United States, but I'm sure in Australia

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<v Speaker 3>they forget it as well. Back when Trump was first

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<v Speaker 3>running for president, most conservative pundits were very dismissive of him,

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<v Speaker 3>and they didn't take him seriously. And Tucker was one

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<v Speaker 3>of the few conservative pundits who saw the potential that

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<v Speaker 3>Trump had to be a successful politician. There he is.

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<v Speaker 2>Can you feel the magic? It's the hottest ticket in

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<v Speaker 2>South Alabama tonight. Donald Trump expected to draw the biggest

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<v Speaker 2>crowd of any candidate yet this election season, happening this evening.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't think Tucker particularly liked Trump personally, but he

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<v Speaker 3>understood that his issues, especially on you know, being opposed

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<v Speaker 3>to immigration, kind of running on white grievance, running as

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<v Speaker 3>a sexist. Tucker saw that there was there was an

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<v Speaker 3>audience for that among conservative voters, and he was willing

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<v Speaker 3>to at least entertain the possibility that Trump could be successful.

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<v Speaker 3>And at Fox, Fox had a really basic problem. They

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<v Speaker 3>wanted to do segments about Trump, but most of the

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<v Speaker 3>pundits at Fox were dismissive of Trump. So they needed

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<v Speaker 3>to find people who would at least, you know, if

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<v Speaker 3>not actually support Trump, at least entertain the possibility that

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<v Speaker 3>he might go somewhere just to make a debate segment work.

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<v Speaker 2>Here's a guy who says exactly he thinks he doesn't care,

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<v Speaker 2>and there's something thrilling about that.

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<v Speaker 3>No, you mean like anchor baby, Yeah, that's exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>What I mean.

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<v Speaker 3>And Tucker was someone who was willing to do that,

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<v Speaker 3>and he ended up getting more and more airtime because

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<v Speaker 3>he was willing to do that, and that's how his

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<v Speaker 3>own star kind of eventually rose at Fox.

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<v Speaker 2>So, Jonah, I know you're not generally a big Trump defender,

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<v Speaker 2>but will you at least concede it is nice to

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<v Speaker 2>hear from the last unafraid man in America who can

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<v Speaker 2>say exactly what he really thinks, and, unlike the rest

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<v Speaker 2>of us, is encowering under the threat of losing his

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<v Speaker 2>job because he's telling the truth.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, well, I mean, I would pray we can get

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<v Speaker 4>into a debate about how much of what he said

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<v Speaker 4>is actually the truth in terms of the statistics and all.

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<v Speaker 1>And then twenty twenty three comes along. Tucker Carlson is

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<v Speaker 1>right behind Trump. They even spoke at a campaign event

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<v Speaker 1>for him a few days before election night. Why did

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<v Speaker 1>he get on Team Trump? And how strong was the relationship?

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<v Speaker 3>So during Trump's first presidency, when Tucker was a star

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<v Speaker 3>at Fox, he maintained some distance from Trump. He was

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<v Speaker 3>supportive of his policies, not of the person. After he

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<v Speaker 3>was fired from Fox, I think he recognized Tucker, that is,

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<v Speaker 3>recognized that in order to maintain his own kind of

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<v Speaker 3>relevance and managed to stay in American's field of vision

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<v Speaker 3>and keep their attention without having that Fox platform. He

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<v Speaker 3>needed to do something, and I think one thing that

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<v Speaker 3>he realized he could do was he could he could

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<v Speaker 3>attach himself to Trump at the hip, and you're right,

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<v Speaker 3>he became, for all intents and purposes, a part of

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<v Speaker 3>Trump's campaign. He launched his own independent media channel.

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<v Speaker 2>We've decided that we need something new, something relentlessly honest,

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<v Speaker 2>that the corporate gatekeepers can't touch. So we built a

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<v Speaker 2>company called Tucker Carlson Network. We'll be rolling it out

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<v Speaker 2>starting now.

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<v Speaker 3>But at the same time he did that, he would

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<v Speaker 3>go out on the campaign trail of Trump. He spoke

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<v Speaker 3>at the Republican Convention for Trump. He spoke at his rallies.

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<v Speaker 2>Donald Trump's gonna win. He's gonna win. I know that

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<v Speaker 2>that's true. Why is Donald Trump gonna win? The people?

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<v Speaker 3>He's an extremely talented and smart political operator, and he

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<v Speaker 3>was someone that I think Trump valued as having on

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<v Speaker 3>his side and someone whose advice Trump ended up valuing.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, Tucker was very influential in the selection of JD.

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<v Speaker 3>Vance as his running maid. He was very influential in

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<v Speaker 3>terms of some of the cabinet choices that Trump made,

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<v Speaker 3>and I think Trump just came to trust him.

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<v Speaker 1>What type of propaganda did Tucker Carlson spread Trump Gander

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<v Speaker 1>and what sort of false information and how influential did

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<v Speaker 1>that end up being.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, Tucker definitely was a promulgator of the conspiracy theories

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<v Speaker 3>about the twenty twenty election and that you know, Trump

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<v Speaker 3>would actually want it once he started his own streaming service,

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<v Speaker 3>he voiced those views.

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<v Speaker 2>Was their voter fraud? Well, we know there was some

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<v Speaker 2>just ask people, did you personally commit voter fraud? Well,

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<v Speaker 2>that has just been done and the answer is a

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<v Speaker 2>huge percentage of people asked in the poll admitted yes,

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<v Speaker 2>I committed voter fraud. It's remarkable.

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<v Speaker 3>He was a huge spreader of the conspiracy theory about

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<v Speaker 3>the January sixth attacks that Tucker maintained that they were

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<v Speaker 3>a false flag operation by the federal government and the

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<v Speaker 3>Deep State to try to discredit Trump.

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<v Speaker 2>Take it as a whole. The video record does not

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<v Speaker 2>support the claim that January sixth was an insurrection. In fact,

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<v Speaker 2>it demolishes that claim. And that's exactly why the Democratic

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<v Speaker 2>Party and its allies in the METI prevented you from

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<v Speaker 2>seeing it.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, there are some conspiracy theories that I would

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<v Speaker 3>say he brought to Trump. I mean this idea of

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<v Speaker 3>the great replacement theory, which is this idea that liberal forces,

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<v Speaker 3>oftentimes you know, Jewish forces, are bringing immigrants, third oral

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<v Speaker 3>immigrants into the United States to disempower white voters and

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<v Speaker 3>support the Democratic Party.

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<v Speaker 2>New York has lost about four million white people even

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<v Speaker 2>as it gained a million people in population.

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<v Speaker 5>What is that?

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<v Speaker 3>That that was a conspiracy theory that Tucker kind of

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<v Speaker 3>mainstream that he brought into the conservative mainstream, and then

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<v Speaker 3>that Trump ultimately echoed. So it was actually it sort

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<v Speaker 3>of was a two way street.

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<v Speaker 6>People that don't speak our language, they're signing them up

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<v Speaker 6>to vote. And I believe that's why you're having millions

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<v Speaker 6>of people pour into our country and it could very

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<v Speaker 6>well affect the next election, and I believe that's why

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<v Speaker 6>they're doing it.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, Tucker would echo some of Trump's conspiracy theories,

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<v Speaker 3>and Trump would echo some of Tucker's.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up, Trump and Tucker, how did it all fall apart?

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<v Speaker 6>Now?

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<v Speaker 1>Jason? The big question though, is how did this relationship

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<v Speaker 1>start to break down and what was the final stroll?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, Foreign policy is I think probably the biggest issue

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<v Speaker 3>on which they disagreed. I mean, there were there were

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<v Speaker 3>some fissures before that, the Epstein files. I think Tucker

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<v Speaker 3>was someone who wanted Trump to be more the Trump

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<v Speaker 3>administration to be more forthcoming about those and he was

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<v Speaker 3>critical of Trump. But it really wasn't until the United

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<v Speaker 3>States attacked Iran last summer that those disagreements really started

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<v Speaker 3>to come to the fore. You know, Tucker is a

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<v Speaker 3>real isolationist. He's a real opponent of foreign interventions by

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<v Speaker 3>the US military. That was something that Trump campaigned on

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<v Speaker 3>as well, and I think Tucker really believed that Trump

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<v Speaker 3>believed that too. And when Trump attacked Iran the first time,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, Tucker tried to sort of head him off

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<v Speaker 3>on that. You know, he opposed the potential of a strike.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, both publicly and privately.

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<v Speaker 2>Committing young American men to go die in Iran is

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<v Speaker 2>not in their interest at all, and it would cause

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<v Speaker 2>not simply heartbreak in the families of those killed, but

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<v Speaker 2>it would cause potentially real turmoil here domestically.

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<v Speaker 3>And then when Trump bultimately did it, Tucker criticized it,

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<v Speaker 3>but not quite as forcefully as he might have but

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<v Speaker 3>this second time around, with the second military action against Iran,

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<v Speaker 3>he again tried to head it off both publicly and privately.

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<v Speaker 3>But now he's very critical of it, and and it

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<v Speaker 3>is it basically colors everything.

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<v Speaker 2>At some point, very soon, the United States has to

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<v Speaker 2>say to the government of Israel, you were not in charge.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, Tucker has become a real conspiracy theorist about Israel.

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<v Speaker 3>He insinuates that Trump is acting at that the hest

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<v Speaker 3>of Israel because Trump is either being physically threatened by Israel.

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<v Speaker 3>Tucker's kind of insinuated that they are behind some of

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<v Speaker 3>these assassination attempts. He's either being blackmailed by Israel or

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<v Speaker 3>he's been bought off by Israel in the form of

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<v Speaker 3>campaign donations from Americans who are supporters of Israel.

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<v Speaker 2>There are a bunch of people in the US government

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<v Speaker 2>who do not put the United States before theaters of Israel, period.

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<v Speaker 2>And you saw that very clearly with Mike Huckabee. We

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<v Speaker 2>interviewed him last week in Tel Aviv, and there was

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<v Speaker 2>no sense at all that he represents the United States

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<v Speaker 2>or is any interest in what happens to the United

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<v Speaker 2>States at all. His party is in defending Israel.

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<v Speaker 3>The military action in Iran and then the Trump administration's

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<v Speaker 3>approach to Israel are the two things that have completely

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<v Speaker 3>destroyed their relationship.

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<v Speaker 1>So we've now had this tremendous breakup. Really, is it

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<v Speaker 1>a major loss for Trump no longer having Tucker on board?

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<v Speaker 1>And could you also explain for us how Tucker Kulson,

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<v Speaker 1>how did his earliest support for trumpet He's views some

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<v Speaker 1>sort of framework.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know if this is that big of a

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<v Speaker 3>loss for Trump. We've seen Trump survive these things multiple times.

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<v Speaker 3>At the same time, I do think Tucker he has

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<v Speaker 3>probably the largest following of anyone, largest following among kind

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<v Speaker 3>of MAGA voters and conservative voters of anyone who has,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, broken up with Trump who's now critical of Trump.

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<v Speaker 3>So be it'll be worth watching Along those lines, Tucker

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<v Speaker 3>did provide a much more sort of coherent version of

0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:37.400
<v Speaker 3>Trump's ideology than Trump ever did himself, and I think

0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:41.480
<v Speaker 3>that was important. I think, especially among kind of conservative intellectuals,

0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:46.120
<v Speaker 3>they preferred Tucker to Trump because Tucker made sense. You know,

0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:50.280
<v Speaker 3>Trump is sort of forcefully anti intellectual. He's contradicting himself

0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:52.560
<v Speaker 3>all the time. Tucker, at least when it comes to

0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:56.400
<v Speaker 3>some of these issues like immigration and trade and foreign policy.

0:12:56.480 --> 0:12:59.280
<v Speaker 3>He's he's very consistent these days, and I think for

0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:02.800
<v Speaker 3>a certain kind the conservative Tucker was appealing in a

0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:03.880
<v Speaker 3>way that Trump wasn't.

0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:05.520
<v Speaker 2>The big question that.

0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:07.640
<v Speaker 3>I think all of this is raising is just what

0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:11.560
<v Speaker 3>exactly is MAGA. I think Tucker thinks that MAGA is

0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:15.040
<v Speaker 3>an ideological movement that has core ideological principles, and that

0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:17.640
<v Speaker 3>when people in the United States vote for Donald Trump,

0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:21.040
<v Speaker 3>they're voting for those ideological principles. This idea that we're

0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:23.000
<v Speaker 3>not going to get involved in foreign wars, they're going

0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:25.160
<v Speaker 3>to strict immigration, that we're not going to enter free

0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:28.720
<v Speaker 3>trade policies. Tucker thinks that that's what these MAGA voters

0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:31.240
<v Speaker 3>are supporting. I think the flip side of that theory,

0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:33.680
<v Speaker 3>and I think this is actually Donald Trump's theory, is

0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:36.960
<v Speaker 3>that MAGA is a cult of personality. People are supporting

0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:39.680
<v Speaker 3>Donald Trump because they love Donald Trump, and whatever Donald

0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:42.240
<v Speaker 3>Trump says, they're going to believe and they're going to support.

0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:44.480
<v Speaker 3>So Donald Trump can say, look, we're going to go

0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:46.719
<v Speaker 3>to war and Iran now, and they're going to say,

0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:49.360
<v Speaker 3>all right, well, that's the MAGA position, and Tucker is

0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:51.920
<v Speaker 3>going to force this question, I think, to the foe,

0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:55.160
<v Speaker 3>We're going to really see what MAGA is. I mean,

0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:57.480
<v Speaker 3>I suspect it's that Trump is right and it's a

0:13:57.480 --> 0:14:02.439
<v Speaker 3>cult of personality, but Tucker leaves that it's an actual ideology,

0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:05.920
<v Speaker 3>and he's setting himself up to be the person who

0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:10.600
<v Speaker 3>can say Trump betrayed what we all believe, and I

0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:14.079
<v Speaker 3>am here to you know, redeem you and to support

0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:16.920
<v Speaker 3>these beliefs that we share and support me because I

0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:18.320
<v Speaker 3>believe these things that you believe.

0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:21.400
<v Speaker 1>So Jason, what do you think happens now? What is

0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:25.360
<v Speaker 1>the long game that Tucker Carlson is playing. Do you

0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:29.200
<v Speaker 1>think he actually wants to become Trump's successor? I do.

0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:32.480
<v Speaker 3>I don't think he's someone who has, you know, thought

0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:34.760
<v Speaker 3>about running for president his whole life and has this

0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:37.840
<v Speaker 3>sort of burning ambition to do it. But it's really

0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:42.360
<v Speaker 3>hard not to view his recent moves as anything but

0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:45.520
<v Speaker 3>an attempt to position himself to run for president in

0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:48.480
<v Speaker 3>twenty twenty eight to say that, you know, I am

0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:50.800
<v Speaker 3>the true MAGA candidate. I mean, a lot of this,

0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:53.680
<v Speaker 3>a lot of these questions are being raised because Donald

0:14:53.680 --> 0:14:56.520
<v Speaker 3>Trump's going to leave the stage, and I think Tucker

0:14:56.840 --> 0:15:00.520
<v Speaker 3>is he has a vision for what MAGA is and

0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:03.160
<v Speaker 3>what he wants it to be post Tromp, and I think,

0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:05.840
<v Speaker 3>you know, the the best way for him at this

0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:08.440
<v Speaker 3>point to fight for that vision would probably be a

0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:09.240
<v Speaker 3>presidential run.

0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:15.680
<v Speaker 1>Jason, thank you for this fascinating deep dive on Tucker, Carlson,

0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:17.280
<v Speaker 1>and Trump. It's been great having you on.

0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:19.480
<v Speaker 3>Oh thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it.

0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:31.920
<v Speaker 1>Hey, Orange Pigs America first hoops.

0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:34.960
<v Speaker 4>Oh boy, that was the slogan you sold.

0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:39.440
<v Speaker 1>This afternoon in a bonus episode of seven AM. You've

0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:41.040
<v Speaker 1>probably seen the viral videos.

0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:42.080
<v Speaker 4>It's clear.

0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:51.480
<v Speaker 2>They voted you to dive for is they lied to you?

0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:56.200
<v Speaker 1>Dig into how Iran is using rap music and lego

0:15:56.680 --> 0:15:59.120
<v Speaker 1>to win the propaganda war against the US.

0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:03.240
<v Speaker 5>I think this is purely for an American audience, at

0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:07.600
<v Speaker 5>least the Lego videos, because they're very US centric. Of course,

0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:12.280
<v Speaker 5>there's this nod to the Jeffrey Epstein files, and that's

0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:14.720
<v Speaker 5>also a very popular theme that you see in these

0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:20.400
<v Speaker 5>Lego videos, highlighting the hypocrisy of elites in America and

0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:24.440
<v Speaker 5>the corruption and the lack of accountability in the US.

0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:29.560
<v Speaker 5>While they're wagging their finger at Iran, Russia, China about

0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:30.760
<v Speaker 5>human rights abuses.

0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:33.480
<v Speaker 4>If the public ever saw the files, and the planet

0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:36.040
<v Speaker 4>would shape from the level of filth in the clowns

0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:38.000
<v Speaker 4>in your way. No one did you called you the worst,

0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:40.640
<v Speaker 4>You degenerous name you claimed you never see.

0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:43.680
<v Speaker 5>Then Sid