WEBVTT - Why Australia has more guns than ever 0:00:03.279 --> 0:00:04.240 Thank you very much. 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:07.280 The Prime Minister's regional visits are to explain why he 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:11.200 believes new gun laws will make Australia safer. I'm sorry 0:00:11.200 --> 0:00:12.080 about that. 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:18.200 In the aftermath of the nineteen ninety six massacre at 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:22.680 Port Arthur, Prime Minister John Howard donned a bulletproof vest 0:00:23.200 --> 0:00:25.840 and argued the case for gun control to crowds of 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:27.120 angry protesters. 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:31.680 Aware that once legal guns would now be banned. John 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:35.360 Howard apologized for the inconvenience the gun laws may cause. 0:00:35.760 --> 0:00:37.680 I know that, I regret that. 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:40.640 I apologize for that, but that is the mass of. 0:00:40.680 --> 0:00:44.080 Out a season, and he addressed any threats of a 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:50.920 loss of electoral support for the Coalition against me. 0:00:56.360 --> 0:00:59.720 His reforms, including a ban on automatic and semi automatic 0:00:59.760 --> 0:01:04.240 weapon and a national buyback scheme, changed the country by 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:07.200 getting rid of more than half a million guns, but 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:10.039 in the years since, the number of guns in Australia 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:14.120 has skyrocketed, and as Anthony Alberinezi tries to change that, 0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:18.720 the Coalition is fighting back. While the Greens have shown 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:25.000 early support for the bill set to be debated today. 0:01:26.080 --> 0:01:30.560 I'm Nicole Johnston and you're listening to seven AM today 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:34.720 Deputy Director at the Australia Institute, Ebonie Bennett, on why 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:38.520 Australia has more guns than ever and whether Labour's proposed 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:50.880 clan would make us safer. It's Tuesday, January twenty Ebonny, 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:53.640 thanks for speaking with me. Can you lay out for 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:55.360 me what the government's proposing. 0:01:55.680 --> 0:02:00.480 Well after the Bondai massacre last year, National Cabinet and 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:04.520 agreed to a number of gun law reforms, and now 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:07.640 the government is implementing a bill that will hold up 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:09.880 its end of the bargain on there, and that includes 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:14.680 things like limiting the number of firearms that anyone individual 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:18.639 can hold, as well as limiting the open ended kind 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:22.359 of firearms licensing that we've seen in the past. Obviously, 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:26.400 the National Buyback Scheme and things like accelerating the work 0:02:26.480 --> 0:02:29.960 of standing up a national Firearms Registry. 0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:33.840 The government will establish a national gun buyback scheme to 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:39.680 purchase surplus newly banned and illegal firearms, the largest buyback 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:43.400 since the Howard government initiated one in nineteen ninety six. 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:47.480 So in nineteen ninety six we saw the banning of 0:02:47.800 --> 0:02:52.720 semi automatic and automatic weapons, and again we'll see many 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:55.760 more restrictions introduced of the type of firearm that we 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:59.280 used in the Bondai massacre here and the Commonwealth's part 0:02:59.280 --> 0:03:02.440 of that in this legislation will be, for example, restricting 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:06.000 the importation of reloading rifles and shotguns into Australia. 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:09.480 Australia's gun laws were last substantially reformed in the wake 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:13.079 of the Port Arthur tragedy. The terrible events at Bondai 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:16.280 show we need to get more guns off our streets now. 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:18.680 In the aftermath of the Bondai attack, one of the 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:22.320 most shocking revelations was the fact that the older gunman, 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:26.839 Sajid Akron, that he had six legally registered guns even 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:29.160 though he was living in this city and his son 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:33.280 had been investigated by ASIO. Why was that able to 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:36.240 happen and how do these laws go about addressing that? 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:40.520 Well, it's not exactly clear as yet how that happened, 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:43.600 but obviously it's evidence that our current gun laws as 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:48.120 they stand aren't working as intended. It appears like the 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:51.520 New South Wales authorities may not have had access to 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:54.480 that intelligence from ASIO, or the fact that one of 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:58.440 those perpetrators was known to ASIO in the way that 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:03.760 he was, and this legislation will introduce provisions that mean 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:07.040 that all of those licensing authorities at the state and 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:10.000 territory level will be able to access that kind of 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:15.600 intelligence from Commonwealth agencies like AZO and the Australian Criminal 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:17.280 Intelligence Commission. For example. 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:19.640 If we could talk about the last time that we 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:24.120 had major gun reform after Port Arthur, what changes did 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:27.640 John Howard make and how do we know about how 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:29.400 they actually made the country safer? 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:35.359 Yeah, the National Firearms Agreement was historic and landmark legislation 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:38.800 and it's obviously still hugely popular with the public today. 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:42.039 The Prime Mins to John Howard tonight detailed sweeping plans 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:44.400 to reform Australia's national gun laws. 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:46.200 Which could mean the introduction of a one. 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:48.520 Off text to buy back illegal weapons. 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:51.440 John Howard, in the wake of the Port Arthur massacre, 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:54.719 gathered all the states and territories and the National Firearms 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:58.919 Agreement did things like banning or restricting semi automatic and 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:04.000 automatic fire arms, restricting the importation of those kinds of firearms. 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:09.240 We need to achieve a total prohibition on the ownership, possession, 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:14.120 stale and importation of all automatic and semi automatic weapons. 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:20.240 It included introducing mandatory licensing systems and background checks for 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:23.920 all license holders. It introduced things like rules for the 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:28.200 storage and use of firearms. Obviously, it implemented the National 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:31.440 Gun Buyback Scheme, which saw around six hundred and fifty 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:36.240 thousand firearms surrendered to the authorities that at the time 0:05:36.400 --> 0:05:43.000 cost around three hundred million dollars to the Commonwealth. People 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:46.680 could surrender their firearms, often to their local police station 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:50.919 and then from the Australian Federal Police were in charge 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:55.120 of destroying those weapons. And obviously it included people who 0:05:55.360 --> 0:06:00.680 owned guns that subsequently became illegal to own, or who 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:02.960 in the wake of Port Arthur just felt like I 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:05.599 don't really need these firearms anymore and I would like 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:08.719 to do my part by handing them in. And we 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:14.200 know that the National Firearms Agreement was incredibly successful because 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:18.320 in the years leading up to the Port Arthur massacre 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:22.520 we saw around thirteen mass shootings in the eighteen years 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:26.520 preceding Port Arthur. In the wake of the National Firearms 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:32.000 Agreement being introduced, that number of mass shootings involving casualties 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:35.800 of five or more people dropped to zero. It had 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:39.080 a number of other great benefits for the Australian community 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:43.520 and their safety. So it accelerated the decline of homicides 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:47.240 by firearm in Australia, and it also accelerated the decline 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:50.960 in suicides by firearms in Australia. So it had a 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:55.680 dramatic improvement in public safety. And it's really clear that 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:59.960 the fewer guns are in the Australian community, the safer Australians. 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:17.560 Are coming up the unfinished business after Port Arthur ebony. 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:21.240 While John Howard's reforms had a big impact, there is 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:25.080 some unfinished business from that time. Could you paint a 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:29.120 picture of our current patchwork of gun laws around the country. 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:29.560 Yeah. 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:32.760 Well, as popular as the National Firearms Agreement was at 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:35.840 the time, it's really important to note that really no 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:39.920 state or territory or the Commonwealth indeed fully implemented all 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:43.240 of the details of that agreement. Each state and territory 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:47.080 still has a slightly different approach to gun laws, and 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:51.000 really we're only as safe as our worst state or territory. So, 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:56.760 for example, there was never implemented the agreement to prevent 0:07:56.880 --> 0:08:00.280 children from having access to firearms. Across the board. In 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:03.480 most states, there's no limit on the number of guns 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:06.920 that any individual can hold for a long time, Western 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:09.560 Australia was the only state that had any kind of 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:13.360 cap on the number of guns that you could legally own, 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:16.720 and it was only December last year that New South 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:21.440 Wales introduced its own caps. For example, thirty years after 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:26.040 the fact, there is still no National Firearms Registry, something 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:30.560 that all law enforcement would like access to. But for example, 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:33.960 some states like here in the Act, all of their 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:38.559 records of gun ownership for their Gun Register are analogue. 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:42.040 They're on paper essentially, so that makes the process of 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:47.840 establishing the National Firearms Register obviously much more difficult. We've 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:52.320 also seen a steady chipping away in states and territories 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:56.640 at Australia's gun law reforms over many years. People might 0:08:56.640 --> 0:08:59.800 not remember, but just prior to the Bondai massacre, for example, 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:03.480 the Men's government in New South Wales was considering really 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:07.160 relaxing New South Wales gun laws in a deal with 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:10.560 the Shooters and Fishers Party. They were looking to enshrine 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:14.440 a right to hunt, to open crown lands to hunting 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:18.800 and shooting, and to legalize the ownership of silences and suppressors. 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:22.680 They've obviously dropped all of that kind of legislation and 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:26.520 now committed to much more restrictive gun laws. But it 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:30.960 just shows you that over time state governments have become 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:35.080 complacent about Australia's gun laws and that there are always 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:38.280 elements of the gun lobby who've been trying to weaken 0:09:38.360 --> 0:09:39.360 them over decades. 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:43.080 And on this issue of how many guns were allowed 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:45.600 to have all the limits, could you tell us in 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:50.080 some states how many guns we can actually own and 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:51.199 what's the maximum? 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:54.800 Yeah, so in Western Australia they had a cup of 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:57.960 five for most gun owners and that could increase up 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:01.040 to ten guns in New South Wales. I think the cap, 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:05.960 for example, applies across the board. But currently WA and 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:09.280 New South Wales are the only states that have caps 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:13.120 on the number of guns an individual can own, So 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:17.320 all the other states and territories really have no limits. 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:20.600 And we know from the data that we looked into 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:24.440 from various police forces across Australia that there are a 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:29.040 number of people who own huge numbers of guns and 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:32.480 it's not necessarily you know, farmers who are using them 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:35.880 to control pest animals on their properties. For example, we 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:39.240 know a large number of guns are held in city 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:42.400 and metropolitan areas and in New South Wales, for example, 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:45.880 there are close to one hundred people who own over 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:49.440 one hundred guns each, many of them in the city. 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:54.000 And obviously when it comes to the Bondai perpetrators, they 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:57.520 had six guns lived in the city. And there's a 0:10:57.520 --> 0:11:00.200 lot of people in the Australian public saying, you know, 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:02.000 why do you need that many guns? 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:05.800 Ebany, you mentioned the National Register and there's been calls 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:09.200 for this since Port Arthur, why do we need one? 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:13.040 Obviously it's really important for law enforcement to know things 0:11:13.120 --> 0:11:15.360 like who has a gun at a property or if 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:17.720 there are guns at a property, but it's also important 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:21.200 for the Australian public. When the Australia Institute tried to 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:25.000 find out how many guns there were legally owned in Australia, 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:28.120 it was actually really difficult to find that information. It's 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:32.880 not publicly available. Some states and territories really had difficulty 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:37.520 locating that information. It wasn't easily accessible. The Northern Territory 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:40.520 just didn't respond at all to our requests for that 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:44.679 kind of information. So it's I think really important for 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:48.000 the public to know, not you know, the personal home 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:50.760 address of every gun or not. Obviously that's only for 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:54.120 law enforcement, but just knowing in general how many guns 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:56.960 there are in the community and roughly where they are. 0:11:57.000 --> 0:11:59.720 Are they in your suburb? I think you know is 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:03.280 should be publicly accessible information for Australians. 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:06.200 So Ebonie. On that point, what is it that you 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:09.480 found out about the numbers and how did they end 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:12.840 up increasing after the buyback scheme in the nineties. 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:16.640 Yeah, so obviously the number of guns in the community 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:22.120 has dramatically increased. It's now hovering around four million legally 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:26.840 owned guns in Australia. And we've also found that a 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:31.400 huge number of guns. Legally owned guns are stolen every year. 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:33.480 When we looked at the number of guns that had 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:37.359 been stolen over time, it equated to roughly one every 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:42.360 four hours. And law enforcement has said that the theft 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:46.760 of legally owned firearms is the biggest single source of 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:50.559 illegal guns in the community, and we know that police 0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:54.360 I think, only recover around a third of those stolen. 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:58.640 Weapons, so Ebonie. John Howard was able to pretty easily 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:02.200 change Australia's gun law and was celebrated for it ever since. 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:05.640 But how's the debate changed to the point where getting 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:09.839 both sides of politics to agree on stricter gun control 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:11.480 seems almost impossible. 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:16.319 Yeah, I was just really saddened to see John Howard 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:19.240 come out in the wake of the Bondai massacre and 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:25.640 call gun law reform a distraction. Obviously, gun law reform 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:30.080 can't stop hate, it can't stop anti Semitism, but it 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:32.880 can stop the kind of hate that we saw in 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:37.240 Bondi from turning into the horror that we saw in Bondai. 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:41.680 And I think John Howard's intervention here to label a 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:45.400 gun law reform just a distraction really shows that the 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:49.280 Coalition is really willing to trash its political legacy on 0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:53.600 gun law reform in the interests of politicizing this issue 0:13:53.640 --> 0:14:02.479 and making life more difficult for the Labor government. Obviously, 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:06.960 there are big parts of the Nationals constituency, rural people, 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:12.600 farmers who do want access to guns, and increasingly in 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:16.200 recent years we've seen the Nationals really as the tail 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:21.240 that's wagging the coalition dog. Thankfully, Australia does not kind 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:24.360 of fetishize gun ownership in the way that we've seen 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:27.520 in the United States, for example, but it's really clear 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:30.160 the kind of retric employed by the NRA and the 0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:34.400 gun lobby, and to see Australian political debate all the time, 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:38.640 and more and more frequently. It's only a few years 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:43.040 since we saw Pauline Hanson's One Nation, for example, caught 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:45.720 on tape trying to solicit tens of millions of dollars 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:49.840 of donations from the NRA in exchange for weakening Australia's 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:54.840 gun laws. But the Australian public really overwhelmingly supports stricter 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:58.960 gun laws and it's widely considered, I think, the biggest 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:03.280 and most positivelegacy of the Howard government. So it's really 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:06.680 sad to see them abandon that for what looks like 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:08.239 pure electoral politics. 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:16.400 Ebony, thanks for speaking with us on seven AM. 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:16.840 Thank you. 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:31.600 Also in the news, the Albanezy government is seeking more 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:35.560 details on an invitation to join US President Donald Trump's 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:39.320 so called Board of Peace for Gaza. Deputy Prime Minister 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:42.800 Richard Marles says the government welcomes the invitation to join 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:47.000 the new international body, despite concerns from some diplomats it 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:50.960 could undermine the work of existing organizations like the UN. 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:54.400 The Board, which would be chaired by President Trump, will 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:57.840 limit member states to three year terms unless they pay 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:01.520 one point five billion dollars to fund the board's activities 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:06.240 and earn permanent membership, and over the past year, Australian 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:09.880 billionaire's average wealth grew by almost six hundred thousand dollars 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:13.400 a day, or more than ten point five billion dollars collectively, 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:18.360 according to new analysis from Oxfam. In its annual Inequality Report, 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:22.560 Oxfam noted that Australia now has forty eight billionaires who 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:25.600 hold more wealth than the bottom forty percent of the 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:30.800 population combined. That's eleven million people. I'm Nicole Johnston. This 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:32.640 is seven am. Thanks for listening.