Speaker 1: Doctor Stanley Beacham, welcome back to the podcast for a
Speaker 1: third time.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Paul. It's good to see you again. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I like your haircut.
Speaker 3: Man.
Speaker 1: It's it's particularly good to say you because, well, we've
Speaker 1: both been through a little bump in the last few
Speaker 1: years since we last talked, haven't we. My listeners are
Speaker 1: very familiar with my little heck up kid.
Speaker 3: Just talk our listeners through years.
Speaker 2: So in July of twenty twenty three, I was diagnosed
Speaker 2: with acute probalystic leukemia. It's a type of leukemia that's
Speaker 2: a it's a genetic transformation. They don't even know what
Speaker 2: causes it, so it's not like you've got exposed to something.
Speaker 2: It's just one of these random acts of the universe.
Speaker 2: About four people and a million get it. Anyway. I got. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I was getting kind of My health was deteriorate and
Speaker 2: I couldn't figure out what was going on. I thought
Speaker 2: I had brian kitis because I was having trouble in
Speaker 2: my chest and you know, breathing. So I called the
Speaker 2: doctor about getting an inhaler and she said, well, when
Speaker 2: you come in, we'll check your blood. And so at
Speaker 2: ten thirty at night, I get a call from the
Speaker 2: doctor's office telling me to go to the emergency room shits.
Speaker 2: And I was like, I'll go in the morning, you know,
Speaker 2: and they're like, you know, I told the nurses, said
Speaker 2: just tell the doctor. I'll go in the morning. She said,
Speaker 2: let me call the doctor back. So she calls me
Speaker 2: about fifty minutes later and she says, no, you don't
Speaker 2: have that kind of time. You need to go tonight.
Speaker 2: So I found out about seven o'clock the next morning
Speaker 2: that I had leukemia, which explained why I you know,
Speaker 2: it felt so bad, you know, for the last several weeks,
Speaker 2: and I got to stay in the ICU for twenty
Speaker 2: five days. She and they started my chemo, which lasted
Speaker 2: one hundred rounds of chemo. So I started chemo in
Speaker 2: July of twenty three and I finished it in February
Speaker 2: of last year. And you know, it was sitting in
Speaker 2: the hospital for twenty five days with kind of nothing
Speaker 2: to do. Yeah, you know, that was that was actually
Speaker 2: really interesting just to observe how I was experiencing that,
Speaker 2: and it was it was interesting because it was really
Speaker 2: clear to me that I might die and that I was,
Speaker 2: you know, close to the edge. Yes, and after I
Speaker 2: got over the surprise of that and realized, yeah, I'm
Speaker 2: you know, I'm in a really vulnerable place right now,
Speaker 2: I kind of went straight into like, Okay, what do
Speaker 2: I want to do with this? And so I kind
Speaker 2: of made a promise to myself that I wouldn't be
Speaker 2: become a victim of it all, you know, and feel
Speaker 2: like I got a bad shake, if you will. And
Speaker 2: so I did things like when I got up in
Speaker 2: the morning, I would get out of the bed and
Speaker 2: I wouldn't get back in my bed. I would you know,
Speaker 2: sit in the chair. And I even walked around some
Speaker 2: after I got feeling better. And I never wore the
Speaker 2: hospital clothes. I had my own clothes and I wore
Speaker 2: my own clothes. And so I found you know that,
Speaker 2: you know, just like in any life situation, there's some
Speaker 2: things you have no control over, which can be a
Speaker 2: lot of things, but there's always one or two things
Speaker 2: that you can take ownership of. And I knew this
Speaker 2: from my own work and my own study, and that
Speaker 2: you focus on the things you have control over, not
Speaker 2: the things that you don't have control over.
Speaker 3: Yes, And.
Speaker 2: So you know, wearing my own clothes and really the
Speaker 2: only other decision I got to make was, you know,
Speaker 2: what I had to eat. You know, they would come
Speaker 2: around in the morning with the menu and I could
Speaker 2: pick my food. Of course, I was limited on the
Speaker 2: things that I could pick, but I really just got
Speaker 2: focused on, you know, controlling the things that I could
Speaker 2: control and accepting the fact that, you know, this may
Speaker 2: not end well for me. Yeah, but I can control
Speaker 2: my attitude and my approach to it, and so yeah,
Speaker 2: it was.
Speaker 3: It was.
Speaker 2: I mean, actually I look back on it. I look
Speaker 2: back on it kind of fondly because I think it
Speaker 2: really informed me. I think, you know, I'm just more
Speaker 2: aware of the fact that there's a randomness to the
Speaker 2: universe that affects all of us, but we don't think
Speaker 2: about it because the way I think most of us
Speaker 2: live our lives, we act as if we have control
Speaker 2: over things that we really don't. It's absolutely like we're
Speaker 2: just not conscious of how vulnerable we are. That you
Speaker 2: know that any moment, you know, your life can can
Speaker 2: change in a significant way, and so you know, living
Speaker 2: through something like that for such an extended period of time,
Speaker 2: I just I just see that now as kind of
Speaker 2: the new norm, you know, Like, but it's always been
Speaker 2: that way. I just didn't know it. It wasn't so
Speaker 2: much that life changed, it's just my awareness and how
Speaker 2: I thought about it, you know. And and this the
Speaker 2: concept of being vulnerable and that there's no promises and
Speaker 2: no guarantees. So when I was in the hospital and
Speaker 2: I see you for twenty five days, I thought a
Speaker 2: lot about you know, if I live, what am I
Speaker 2: going to do differently? Because I said, I can't just
Speaker 2: go back to doing, you know, things exactly the way
Speaker 2: I did. And I think what I learned in that
Speaker 2: time is that the things that I take the most
Speaker 2: joy from and appreciate the most or actually just simple
Speaker 2: basic things like you know, going for a walk, you know,
Speaker 2: having having a meal with some friends, that it's not
Speaker 2: you know, it's not the big stuff, you know that
Speaker 2: most people think is what makes life great. I think
Speaker 2: it's the simple day to day activities that is really
Speaker 2: what it's about. I'll tell you a quick story. There
Speaker 2: was a guy in the hospital with me and he
Speaker 2: left and so I just I thought he was fine.
Speaker 2: And he came back about two weeks later, and I
Speaker 2: was I could walk around on the unit, but I
Speaker 2: couldn't leave the unit. It was kind of like being
Speaker 2: incarcerated in prison, because you know, we have no immune system,
Speaker 2: so you can't leave the unit because you're too vulnerable
Speaker 2: to get sick. So but you had to put a
Speaker 2: mask on when you left your own room, and people
Speaker 2: had to put a mask when they came into your
Speaker 2: room and cover themselves up, you know, in plastic gowns
Speaker 2: and the whole thing. And so I remember talking to
Speaker 2: this guy and I said, you know, what are you
Speaker 2: back for? And he said, well, I think it was
Speaker 2: either T cells or a bone marre transplant, can't remember.
Speaker 2: He said, I'm back to get this transplant. And I said,
Speaker 2: so what's that supposed to do for you? And he said,
Speaker 2: they tell me if I do this, I can live
Speaker 2: three more months. And this is a guy that was
Speaker 2: about forty and I was sixty one at the time,
Speaker 2: and he's saying this very matter of fact, you know,
Speaker 2: I mean, there's no emotion in his voice. It's just like,
Speaker 2: you know, just two guys have a conversation. And I said,
Speaker 2: what are you going to do with your time? And
Speaker 2: he's like, well, I'd like to go to the beach
Speaker 2: one more time. And then he said, then I just
Speaker 2: you know, I just want to sit on my back
Speaker 2: porch with my dogs and watch him running around in
Speaker 2: the yard. And he was he was serious about this,
Speaker 2: and that was kind of my first cue was like, Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's what That's what makes life really good, you know
Speaker 2: and delicious. Is you enjoy you know, watching your dogs
Speaker 2: play in the backyard or you know, watching your kid
Speaker 2: crawl around on the floor, or you know, having a
Speaker 2: meal with a friend. It's not all the big stuff.
Speaker 2: So that's that's really stayed with me, and that's really
Speaker 2: been helpful.
Speaker 3: That that's that's interesting.
Speaker 1: Stand that that that was the big thing that you
Speaker 1: took from it.
Speaker 3: I had just mentioned to you.
Speaker 1: Look, and all my listeners know that I went through
Speaker 1: open heart surgery, which was a bit of a surprise,
Speaker 1: finding out from a check with my cardiologist that I
Speaker 1: was born with the dodgy valve that would kill me.
Speaker 3: And I remember.
Speaker 1: Walking out of there and him saying to me, you
Speaker 1: need to have open heart surgery and going home.
Speaker 3: The first thing.
Speaker 1: It's interesting, isn't it that that that what you expose
Speaker 1: yourself to tends to come up in those moments. And
Speaker 1: you've had a life of being a psychologist, working and
Speaker 1: you've wrote a brilliant book called Elite Minds, and you've
Speaker 1: worked with the lead athletes about optimizing the mind all
Speaker 1: your life. You've work with business consultants. I'm in a
Speaker 1: similar space, but as you probably know, I'm quite into
Speaker 1: stoic philosophy and awards of Seneca rung in my ears
Speaker 1: as I walked out of the Earth, which was I
Speaker 1: pitied the man who's not faced adversity because he's not
Speaker 1: faced an opponent, and nobody, not even him, knows what
Speaker 1: he's capable of. And I remember going home and I
Speaker 1: wrote the words worthy opponent on my bathroom mirror, and
Speaker 1: my whole idea was this was my worthy opponent that
Speaker 1: was going to test and develop me. But it's only
Speaker 1: because of all the stuff that I've been exposed to
Speaker 1: that then kicks in right and my natural bent and
Speaker 1: probably yours as well, because I'm a ridiculous optimist and
Speaker 1: I'm going this is all going to be fine. But
Speaker 1: I actually had to remember forcing myself and going, no,
Speaker 1: you need to find out exactly what the risks are,
Speaker 1: and you need to prepare yourself.
Speaker 3: So I'm you go ahead, you go now.
Speaker 2: I was just saying, I remember thinking to myself, I'm
Speaker 2: going to find out if I'm a hypocrite because all
Speaker 2: the things that I've been, you know, telling other people
Speaker 2: you know, to think about or how to approach it.
Speaker 2: And I remember thinking, I remember asking myself the question like,
Speaker 2: are you going to become a hypocrite? You know, are
Speaker 2: you going to become a victim of all of this
Speaker 2: and feel sorry for yourself? And you know you're talking
Speaker 2: about the stoics, you know, I love this saying a
Speaker 2: more fate, you know, lover of faith, Yes, you know?
Speaker 2: Of really if you here's here's the way I think
Speaker 2: about it. If you can really want your life and
Speaker 2: not somebody else's life, If you can want your fate
Speaker 2: even if it means you die younger than you wanted to,
Speaker 2: or you know, you lose a loved one or whatever.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: If you can really understand the the acceptance and then
Speaker 2: the love of one's fate, then you have no regrets
Speaker 2: and nothing bad happens to you, right. I mean you
Speaker 2: can think of having leukemia or having heart surgery as
Speaker 2: you know, a bad thing, and people say, I'm sorry, Well,
Speaker 2: it doesn't have to be that way, you know. I mean,
Speaker 2: I talk to people in business, you know, and that
Speaker 2: you know, they lose a lot of money or they
Speaker 2: lose their business and you know, and they recovered from
Speaker 2: it away and they look back on it and say,
Speaker 2: you know, thank God, I learned that lesson early on. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm glad I went bankrupt when I was
Speaker 2: thirty and you know, when I'm sixty. And I know
Speaker 2: it sounds kind of trivial to you know, to say
Speaker 2: that out loud, but it's really quite possible that you
Speaker 2: can fall in love with your own life, in the
Speaker 2: fate of your own life, even the tragedy of it.
Speaker 2: Because I can tell you what, when I was in
Speaker 2: ICU for twenty five days, you know, getting you know, leukemia,
Speaker 2: every day I felt more alive in that hospital room
Speaker 2: than I think I ever have my entire life. I mean,
Speaker 2: I was fully aware, my mind was you know, I
Speaker 2: was paying attention to every moment, and I was really deliberate,
Speaker 2: intentional about simple things that, you know, simple decisions, because
Speaker 2: even the simple decisions had some value to me.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, And that it's really interesting that you bring
Speaker 1: up amor Fatty that love of feet, because you know,
Speaker 1: the the the thing.
Speaker 3: I've been a big believer.
Speaker 1: In fact, I've got a tattoo on my arm and
Speaker 1: memento Maury. So particularly Marcus Aurelius said to himself over
Speaker 1: and over again, remember that you are mortal, Marcus. And
Speaker 1: his whole idea was to remember it, not to be morose,
Speaker 1: but to remind yourself that life is a precious gift.
Speaker 1: And so when I found out, I forced myself to
Speaker 1: go and look at the what's the risks of death?
Speaker 1: And then I forced myself to contemplate my own death. Now,
Speaker 1: my risk of dying was surprisingly low, actually less than
Speaker 1: one percent fatalities on the operating table, and I thought, well,
Speaker 1: I'm pretty fit.
Speaker 3: I've got a good chance.
Speaker 1: But I actually forced myself to confront that possibility, not
Speaker 1: to be negative, but from that perspective of the sort
Speaker 1: of Japanese psychology slant of Arugamama, with things as.
Speaker 3: They are, what needs to be done.
Speaker 1: So I thought to myself, well, you need to get
Speaker 1: your reffers in order, you.
Speaker 3: Need to shoot shoot.
Speaker 1: Some videos for your kids in case you do go.
Speaker 1: And I actually forced myself to contemplate my own death.
Speaker 1: That the thing that I really got into was amor
Speaker 1: fatty and and trying to go, well, fuck, if this
Speaker 1: is it, right, if this is this is the big
Speaker 1: step for me?
Speaker 3: Can you love your feet right?
Speaker 1: Can you say, hey, this might well happen and you
Speaker 1: might well go. Can you actually embrice because me, for me,
Speaker 1: that's the last big challenge of the Stoics is to
Speaker 1: love your feet at even when you get a shit
Speaker 1: sandwich from the universe and the thing that and everybody
Speaker 1: gets one, oh yes, oh yes, we're all going to
Speaker 1: get one, and some people have had, some people have
Speaker 1: had their unfair share of shit sandwiches from the universe. Right,
Speaker 1: But you know, the thing that really stuck out for me,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure about you, was just reflecting on my
Speaker 1: life and going, well, if this is it, I was
Speaker 1: actually I'm content, And for me, that was the big
Speaker 1: take home out of that whole ordeal is that the
Speaker 1: goal of life should not be happiness because that's a
Speaker 1: fucking fleeting emotion that people chease, and the goal in
Speaker 1: life should be contentment or serenity. And I actually started
Speaker 1: using this to reflect back on my life and going
Speaker 1: fucking hell, I've had a good run, I've done some
Speaker 1: amazing shit, I've met some awesome people, and if this
Speaker 1: is fated to be it, then it is what it is.
Speaker 1: And I was kind of at peace with it. I
Speaker 1: knew that, you know, the things I would be sad
Speaker 1: about was not seeing my kids grow up, not growing
Speaker 1: old with my wife.
Speaker 3: But to your points, then what it.
Speaker 1: Really did is it made me really be much much
Speaker 1: more mindful in just daily life. I don't mean sitting
Speaker 1: down and meditating. I mean smelling the roses, walking around,
Speaker 1: you know, with taking my dogs, are just enjoying seeing
Speaker 1: my dogs run around with their tails wagging, looking at
Speaker 1: the colors of the sky.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: Isn't it strange that we have to go through something
Speaker 1: so confronting to really get to the essence of what
Speaker 1: life is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's. I think it's a realization that
Speaker 2: you know, you may actually lose your life, it would
Speaker 2: come to an end. And again walking right up next
Speaker 2: to that and having that experience of being close to
Speaker 2: your own death I think can be really informative because
Speaker 2: now you know it's going to happen. It didn't happen
Speaker 2: that time, but but it is going to happen. You know,
Speaker 2: I am going to die, and it's probably not going
Speaker 2: to be on my terms, right, it's probably not going
Speaker 2: to be when I think it's going to happen, or
Speaker 2: how it's going to happen. Because I remember when they
Speaker 2: told me I had leukemia. I was really surprised. I
Speaker 2: just like I remember thinking, like, I didn't see that
Speaker 2: one coming, you know, heart disease. You know, I'd thought
Speaker 2: about that, you know, because I've had people in my
Speaker 2: family die of heart disease. But I just I just
Speaker 2: remember thinking, wow, I never I never thought that's how
Speaker 2: I would die, and now that's might that might be
Speaker 2: how I die. And I remember when I would I
Speaker 2: don't know if it was the first of the second
Speaker 2: as in the hospital when the nurses came around and
Speaker 2: you know, they ask you all these questions and you
Speaker 2: fill out these all these forms about do you want
Speaker 2: to be resuscitated or not? Well, yeah, I don't know
Speaker 2: if they did that with you. And I remember telling
Speaker 2: her that I didn't want to be resuscitated and if
Speaker 2: anything happens, just let me go. And I could see
Speaker 2: that she was really surprised by that, and she said like,
Speaker 2: I don't think you understand what I'm saying, you know,
Speaker 2: because evidently most people say, yeah, do everything you can
Speaker 2: to keep me alive. And here's this, you know, stupid
Speaker 2: souff a bit saying, no, don't try to keep me alive,
Speaker 2: just let me go. And so she asked me like
Speaker 2: several times because you end up having to sign, and
Speaker 2: I said, yeah, don't, don't resuscitate me, don't do anything.
Speaker 2: You know, if it's if it's my time to go,
Speaker 2: it's my time to go. I don't want to lay
Speaker 2: in the bed for months, you know, before I die.
Speaker 2: I'd rather just you know, go right away. I don't
Speaker 2: want to prolog my dying, you know, I just remembers.
Speaker 1: Sorry, Stine was just going to ask this was that
Speaker 1: link to this I'm more fatty idea, this love of fear.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, I mean it was just like if this
Speaker 2: is how I'm going to go, whether I go now
Speaker 2: or in a month from now, it doesn't matter, you know,
Speaker 2: not really not to me. What I didn't what I
Speaker 2: didn't want to do, is be a burden, you know,
Speaker 2: because I think, you know what this what's interesting is
Speaker 2: so why I was fighting for my life against leukemia.
Speaker 2: My father had to mention and he was progressively dying.
Speaker 2: In fact, he died the week before I finished my
Speaker 2: chemo shit. And so that was a real irity, right
Speaker 2: as I was fighting to stay alive, and you know,
Speaker 2: and there was nothing he could do. And so I'm
Speaker 2: watching him deteriorate as I'm slowly getting better, and I
Speaker 2: remember thinking, you know, that's that's a unique experience.
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, sometimes the universe those two fus.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but and I remember just hoping that he
Speaker 2: would go ahead and die because his quality of life
Speaker 2: was so bad. You know, it's like we treat farm animals,
Speaker 2: you know, with more humanity than we do humans. You know,
Speaker 2: just people laying in the bed for months at a time.
Speaker 2: You know. It's just like, so I'm glad that didn't
Speaker 2: happen to me, you know.
Speaker 3: And what did you make any deals with yourself?
Speaker 1: You know, because obviously as you're going through that, there's
Speaker 1: a shit heap of stuff that goes through your head.
Speaker 1: Did you make any deeds with yourself?
Speaker 3: A Ryan?
Speaker 1: If I get through this, this is what I'm going
Speaker 1: to do differently.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I spent actually, when I was in
Speaker 2: ICU for twenty five days, I spend a lot of
Speaker 2: time thinking about that. You know, if I have a
Speaker 2: little bit of time left, how do I want to
Speaker 2: spend it. I was thinking about more from the standpoint.
Speaker 2: If I just have a couple of years left, you know,
Speaker 2: what will I do? And the main thing that came
Speaker 2: to me is I'd like to go back to Spain
Speaker 2: and walk the Camino to Santiago again, which I actually
Speaker 2: did the month after I finished my chemo. I went
Speaker 2: over and walked the whole thing again. But I remember
Speaker 2: just thinking, you know, I really would like to do
Speaker 2: that again. And I remember thinking, I want to keep working,
Speaker 2: but I don't want I don't want work, my work
Speaker 2: to define me the way that it did. I think
Speaker 2: I think too much of my identity, and I think
Speaker 2: it's true for a lot of men, you know. I
Speaker 2: know it is in the US, and I would imagine
Speaker 2: it is in Australia as well, that so much of
Speaker 2: your identity is what you do. You know, people say,
Speaker 2: you know, it's one of the first things we asked somebody,
Speaker 2: what do you do? And then you tell them what
Speaker 2: your job is? Right, And I remember, you know, thinking,
Speaker 2: I don't I don't like the fact that so much
Speaker 2: of my identity is in my work and in my occupation,
Speaker 2: and that how I think about myself is so much
Speaker 2: tied into how well you know business is going. You know,
Speaker 2: then when business is going really well, I feel better
Speaker 2: about myself and that kind of thing. And I just
Speaker 2: remember thinking that was it's kind of hollow, you know,
Speaker 2: like that's but now I work. I still work, but
Speaker 2: I work for a different reason. I work because I
Speaker 2: realized I have to work because I need something to
Speaker 2: focus on that's not me. I think when people don't
Speaker 2: stay busy, or they don't have a job, or they
Speaker 2: don't have activities, you know that. You know that when
Speaker 2: people talk about I'm bored, what I think happens is
Speaker 2: when you when you aren't engaged like that, there's a
Speaker 2: lot of time to sit around and think about yourself, right,
Speaker 2: And I don't think that's good. I know it's not
Speaker 2: good for me in my senses, it's not good for
Speaker 2: most people. So I mean, one of the benefits of
Speaker 2: having work or having other people in your life is
Speaker 2: that you don't focus on yourself all the time and
Speaker 2: you don't think about yourself. And I know that my
Speaker 2: best days are when I'm busy doing other things or
Speaker 2: helping other people, and I just don't think about how
Speaker 2: stand doing and how's this day going. You know, those
Speaker 2: truly are my best days, so I have to fill
Speaker 2: them with something, and as long as I can still
Speaker 2: work and be of help, I think I'll keep doing that.
Speaker 2: But I say that because I think a lot of
Speaker 2: people they don't They don't have enough going on, they
Speaker 2: don't have enough activity, but challenging activity. You know what
Speaker 2: I'm saying. It's one thing to go and find something
Speaker 2: to do. It's another thing to seek out something that's
Speaker 2: really difficult, because I think we should take on as
Speaker 2: much challenge, responsibility, and difficulty as we can tolerate. That
Speaker 2: is really being fully alive. You know, when you have
Speaker 2: a full plate and you're taking on as much as
Speaker 2: you can, not more than you can handle, because now
Speaker 2: you're overly stressed. But what I'm saying is I think
Speaker 2: a lot of people they actually hurt themselves because they
Speaker 2: don't take on as much responsibility as they actually could,
Speaker 2: or they don't try to do difficult things. And again
Speaker 2: I'm not saying try to do things that you can't do.
Speaker 2: I'm saying, go right up to the edge of yourself
Speaker 2: right and do as much as you can. Like that
Speaker 2: really is the best life.
Speaker 1: That that is where you feel alive, right, and it's yes.
Speaker 1: There's a couple of things I want to unpack in
Speaker 1: what you just said. The first one was around identity,
Speaker 1: because again that that was an interesting thing for me
Speaker 1: round you know, you do a lot of self reflection
Speaker 1: when you are and facing your own mortality, and you
Speaker 1: certainly didn't, and I did, and I was I had
Speaker 1: to force myself to overcome my optimism bias because I
Speaker 1: wanted to actually use this opportunity to properly meditate on
Speaker 1: my death and actually stir into the abyss as you've
Speaker 1: talked about and actually you know, take out the lessons
Speaker 1: of life and that identity thing.
Speaker 3: You will have seen this more than me.
Speaker 1: I've seen it a lot with business people who retire.
Speaker 1: I've seen it with athletes who retire. You will have
Speaker 1: seen it with a lot more athletes who stop playing
Speaker 1: that they fall into an existential crisis because their identity
Speaker 1: is so wrapped up in the stuff that they do.
Speaker 1: And I was coaching a guy who was an athlete
Speaker 1: who just you know, was a big quite a big athlete,
Speaker 1: but then got injured career over and my coaching with
Speaker 1: him was to try to get his identity around his
Speaker 1: character and his values rather than his job. Because when
Speaker 1: we connect our identity to what we do, fucking hell,
Speaker 1: we're on thin ice, aren't they.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't. It won't sustain you the
Speaker 2: way I think people think. Again, it's a societal message, right,
Speaker 2: you know, go to school, study hard, get a good job,
Speaker 2: you know, get promoted, move up the food chain, and
Speaker 2: then you'll have a good life. That's I mean, that's
Speaker 2: the story we're told, right and versus you know, do
Speaker 2: something that you really enjoy doing, that you're passionate about,
Speaker 2: that you care about, that you can you know, throw
Speaker 2: yourself into so you know, they talk about, you know
Speaker 2: in the research. You know when people get into a
Speaker 2: flow state or in the zone, you know that there's
Speaker 2: no sense of self like, there's no doing. It become
Speaker 2: I become the activity to that I'm doing. It's not
Speaker 2: that I'm doing the activity, it's that the activity and
Speaker 2: I are one thing you can think about. You know.
Speaker 2: Musicians talk about this, right, you know when they're having
Speaker 2: a jam session. Artists will do that. I mean it's
Speaker 2: hard for corporate people to get into it, but but
Speaker 2: you can. But that's really what we should be seeking
Speaker 2: is this experience of being one with what you're doing
Speaker 2: because you're you're you're so engrossed in it and you're
Speaker 2: so focused on it and versus thinking about what I'm doing.
Speaker 2: Am I making any sense? When you're when you're really
Speaker 2: doing it, you're you're not thinking about how well you're
Speaker 2: doing it, that all goes away, you know, as well
Speaker 2: as distortions and time. And then the other thing you
Speaker 2: see when we get in these flow stakes is even
Speaker 2: when we're doing things really difficult, we experience them as effortless.
Speaker 2: So what that tells me is is the problem is
Speaker 2: not doing the difficult task. The problem is is becoming
Speaker 2: too aware of oneself or judging oneself when you do
Speaker 2: the task. Like, if you can just do the hard
Speaker 2: thing without judging yourself, you'll find that you can actually
Speaker 2: do a lot more difficult things at a higher level
Speaker 2: than you ever thought. So the problem isn't really doing
Speaker 2: the task. The problem is the self doubt and the
Speaker 2: self judgment that you have in the process of doing
Speaker 2: the task.
Speaker 1: I want to connect that flow stit, which is the
Speaker 1: optimal state, and anybody who's ever been in it knows
Speaker 1: it is an awesome state.
Speaker 3: And I think a lot of people.
Speaker 1: You know, if they're if they're in business in life,
Speaker 1: you know, they could probably relate to that in a
Speaker 1: time in sport or something where they were doing something
Speaker 1: challenge where they were immersed in it.
Speaker 3: But for me, the next step.
Speaker 1: Because we can't be and flow twenty four to seven, right,
Speaker 1: but the next step to flow or are cloas to
Speaker 1: flow for me is this idea of being fully engaged
Speaker 1: in life. And this comes from the research around hardiness.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you're familiar with the hardiness research
Speaker 1: around control orientation, challenge orientation, and commitment orientation. And part
Speaker 1: of that commitment orientation is that people who are highly
Speaker 1: committed are fully engaged in their activities of life, like
Speaker 1: they're curious about life. And you know, these people, they
Speaker 1: just they seem to have that zest for life. No
Speaker 1: matter what they're doing, they're in it. They're completely in it.
Speaker 1: Whether there's a lot of people who are just fucking
Speaker 1: blah and who are half doing stuff.
Speaker 3: And I always and.
Speaker 1: That's why I have that Memento Mority tattoo on my arm,
Speaker 1: is to just look at it and remind myself, fucking hell,
Speaker 1: this day could be here, last why not just be
Speaker 1: into shit rather than just go through the motions?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 2: Yeah, what other.
Speaker 1: Lessons or reflections and did you come up as I
Speaker 1: think there was two that you talked about to start,
Speaker 1: and I want to make them obvert for listeners. That
Speaker 1: the idea of what you said without saying it was
Speaker 1: and that stoic idea of player given roles, well that
Speaker 1: epic Tata said, we are all actors in the play
Speaker 1: and at base sometimes we get a part that we
Speaker 1: don't want and he's basically talking about the universe and
Speaker 1: the ship Sandwich from the universe, but that our focus
Speaker 1: in life should be to play our given roles well.
Speaker 1: And you clearly stepped into that where it was like, well,
Speaker 1: if I'm fated to have leukemia, how do I do
Speaker 1: this well? And that was the same with me with
Speaker 1: my heart surgery. If if that's my feet, how do
Speaker 1: I play this role? Well, that's one that I want
Speaker 1: to highlight and we can dive into that a little
Speaker 1: bit deeper, but that whole idea of focusing on what
Speaker 1: you can control is really important. You talked about your
Speaker 1: little routines and what you did. I actually did, and
Speaker 1: I don't think i've told anybody this before, but CARDI
Speaker 1: couldn't believe it. In ICU, when I first woke up
Speaker 1: from heart surgery, I got out of bed and did
Speaker 1: ten squats because I just wanted to focus on something
Speaker 1: that I could and I wanted to lean into this.
Speaker 1: And it wasn't for it was more for the point
Speaker 1: of doing the action and getting out of bed and saying,
Speaker 1: I ain't taking a shit lying down, I'm just going
Speaker 1: to focus on something that I can achieve here. Just
Speaker 1: for that that sort of self mastery, I think. So
Speaker 1: is there anything else that you want to unpack around
Speaker 1: those two things before we talk about all the lessons
Speaker 1: that you or I may have learned from this that
Speaker 1: could be useful.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean to that point, Paul, I think just
Speaker 2: a focus on the fact that whatever situation you find
Speaker 2: yourself in, you always have a choice. And you know,
Speaker 2: there's there's interesting research done on people who are in
Speaker 2: survival situations right where some people, you know, get lost
Speaker 2: in the woods and die and other people live. And
Speaker 2: you know what the research says is the people that die,
Speaker 2: they get really mad that they're in the situation and
Speaker 2: they say things like I can't believe this happened to me.
Speaker 2: This shouldn't happen to me, and they stay really angry
Speaker 2: at the situation. They never accept you know, that there
Speaker 2: you know, that their ship is capsized in the ocean,
Speaker 2: or that they're lost in the middle of the you know,
Speaker 2: the woods or the desert or the jungle, and because
Speaker 2: their mind is focused on this shouldn't have happened to me,
Speaker 2: So those people die. The people that live in survival situations,
Speaker 2: they think, Okay, well, this is not how I think
Speaker 2: ought today was going to go. But what's the single
Speaker 2: best decision that I can make right now to help myself?
Speaker 2: And so they think about that is it, you know,
Speaker 2: try to find water or shelter or some way to signal.
Speaker 2: And so you you focus on what's the single best
Speaker 2: thing I can do to help myself survive or what's
Speaker 2: the single best decision I can make right now? And
Speaker 2: then you do that. And then after you do that,
Speaker 2: then uk, what's the next thing I can do?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Right, and you just you just keep your mind consumed
Speaker 2: with what's the next best choice I can make? And
Speaker 2: what you see is that those people tend to survive
Speaker 2: in these survivor you know situations, But So if you
Speaker 2: don't go back to a more effect, if you don't
Speaker 2: accept your situation and you're angry that you're in the
Speaker 2: situation that you're in, you will you will undoubtedly do
Speaker 2: two things. You will do harm to yourself and you
Speaker 2: will do harm to everyone around you because you simply
Speaker 2: didn't have the ability to accept that it's my turn.
Speaker 2: And I remember saying that to myself when I was
Speaker 2: in the hospital, you know, because everybody knows somebody who
Speaker 2: had cancer, and I remember just thinking, it's my turn.
Speaker 2: And I didn't think it was going to happen this way.
Speaker 2: I didn't think it was gonna happen at all. But
Speaker 2: this is my turn, and so what am I going
Speaker 2: to do with my turn?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: That, and I think the folk you've really highlighted for me,
Speaker 1: and I kind of knew it, but it wasn't that
Speaker 1: overt that. The precursor, I think to focusing on what
Speaker 1: you can control is acceptance.
Speaker 3: That that is the enabler of focusing on what you
Speaker 3: can control.
Speaker 1: Because if we think about this from a broader perspective,
Speaker 1: you mentioned I didn't want to be a victim. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of people out there who are victims. Are
Speaker 1: fucking professional victims. And you will know some of these
Speaker 1: people stand that that you know, this person's got it
Speaker 1: better than me, that person's got it better than me,
Speaker 1: and they they are angry, but it's not just the anger.
Speaker 1: It's where their energy goes. It's the flashlight of their
Speaker 1: attention is shown on them being a victim.
Speaker 3: And I think the other thing that.
Speaker 2: Is really becomes their identity too.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, it becomes they're.
Speaker 2: The defining thing about themselves as I'm the person who's
Speaker 2: had all these terrible things happen to me, and then
Speaker 2: you're supposed to feel sorry for me, and you're supposed
Speaker 2: to treat me in some preferential way because of how
Speaker 2: difficult I've had it. Of course, if you actually did
Speaker 2: that to the person, you would do them a disservice.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: And I think the thing that I often say, and
Speaker 1: I think it's happening more and more as well as
Speaker 1: a victim mentality is an entitlement mentality, that that people
Speaker 1: feel like they are entitled to having a good life
Speaker 1: and entitled to whether it's not be offended or any
Speaker 1: of that.
Speaker 3: I'm just like, this is fucking wrong.
Speaker 1: This is completely the wrong way to approach life, because
Speaker 1: it just puts people in a tailspin and all of
Speaker 1: their attention and therefore their energy is focused on negative
Speaker 1: and war is me and and they're just it's it's
Speaker 1: that it's that vacuum of war that energy could be.
Speaker 1: It's not just the damaging effect, you know, It's that
Speaker 1: it's that double thing. It's like if you have a
Speaker 1: shit diet, it's not just the fact that you're eating
Speaker 1: shit food that's causing you damage. It's also the fact
Speaker 1: that you've crowded out of your diet a lot of
Speaker 1: good nourishing food, so you actually end up with a
Speaker 1: double one.
Speaker 3: Any thoughts on that.
Speaker 2: And that you don't value yourself enough to take care
Speaker 2: of you And so I think, you know, in our
Speaker 2: Western society, if we encounter someone who doesn't value and
Speaker 2: take care of themselves, it's very difficult for us to
Speaker 2: value them too. Like when you run into someone who's
Speaker 2: given up on themselves, it's really hard, you know, especially
Speaker 2: in the business world, in competitive environments, when you run
Speaker 2: into people who've given up on themselves, it's highly unlikely
Speaker 2: that the people around you are going to want to
Speaker 2: take you on as a project because it takes a
Speaker 2: lot of energy, you know. I mean you can do
Speaker 2: it if it's a family member or a close friend perhaps,
Speaker 2: but we don't normally do that in you know, competitive
Speaker 2: environments and business environments. When we see people who've already
Speaker 2: given up on themselves, we tend to steer around them
Speaker 2: because it's it can be exhausting to be in a
Speaker 2: relationship with someone like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I you know, what I really struggle is done.
Speaker 1: And it's funny you mentioned that when I people who've
Speaker 1: given up on themselves. When I see friends who whether
Speaker 1: they've been through a marriage breakup and they're being a victim,
Speaker 1: I find it really hard not to have contempt for them.
Speaker 1: That's something and it's interesting you mentioned that we tend
Speaker 1: to stay around them, because that's something that I really
Speaker 1: struggle with, is when I see someone who's not helping themselves.
Speaker 1: And maybe this is a personal fault of mine, but
Speaker 1: I have to force myself not to be contemptuous around
Speaker 1: those people. How do you, as a coach and get
Speaker 1: around that? Because you have seen and dealt with these people.
Speaker 1: I need some tools here for me to deal with
Speaker 1: people who've given up on themselves.
Speaker 2: Well, I think I think it's possible to have compassion
Speaker 2: for people who are suffering, and that is a form
Speaker 2: of suffering and insisting. Like when I run into an
Speaker 2: angry person, Now, what I tell to myself is is
Speaker 2: that person is hurt, because you don't become angry unless
Speaker 2: you're hurt first. And so when I see an angry person,
Speaker 2: I just tell myself, this person is hurting, okay, and
Speaker 2: don't pay attention to the anger. Look look for the hurt,
Speaker 2: and see the hurt beneath the anger. So there are
Speaker 2: things like that that we can do. I think. The
Speaker 2: other thing I sometimes say to people is, you know,
Speaker 2: do you want my help or do you want my
Speaker 2: advice on what's going on with you? And if you
Speaker 2: ask them, a lot of times they'll say yes, but
Speaker 2: they really don't want it. And I'll say, well, if
Speaker 2: if my advice were to actually, in the short term,
Speaker 2: make you feel worse, would you want to hear it? Right?
Speaker 2: Because sometimes the thing that the person needs to hear
Speaker 2: is not what they want to hear. You know, it's
Speaker 2: not the oh, it's it's going to be okay, honey,
Speaker 2: It's going to be all right. And so I find
Speaker 2: it helpful to say you know, I'll talk to you
Speaker 2: about this, and I'll be honest with you, but I
Speaker 2: need to let you know that it's likely that I
Speaker 2: might say something that you know you don't like or
Speaker 2: is upsetting to you. But I also realize that there
Speaker 2: are probably some truths that other people haven't told them right. Yes,
Speaker 2: And you know, there's an interesting thomasoul saying that says,
Speaker 2: if you want to help someone, tell them the truth,
Speaker 2: if you want to help yourself, tell them what they
Speaker 2: want to hear. And I think we do that a lot.
Speaker 2: But I think so there's what I'm getting to is,
Speaker 2: I think the probably the best thing that you can
Speaker 2: do for a friend or a loved one is tell
Speaker 2: them the truth. And sometimes the truth is is how
Speaker 2: you feel when you're in their presence, or the fact
Speaker 2: that you find yourself not wanting to be around them
Speaker 2: anymore in your trouble by that. But that's the reality. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's you know, it's a risk to speak the truth.
Speaker 2: I think telling the truth is probably one of the
Speaker 2: most dangerous things that we do. I mean, if you
Speaker 2: really are, you know, in fully transparent and candid way
Speaker 2: telling the truth, I think it's I think it's very risky,
Speaker 2: and it's dangerous because there are people that if you
Speaker 2: tell them the truth, they're they're going to write you
Speaker 2: off for it, or they're not going to ever want
Speaker 2: to be in relationship with you again. You know. I
Speaker 2: see it in the workplace all the time, where people
Speaker 2: are really won't tell their boss what they really think,
Speaker 2: or you know, like couples where they really won't tell
Speaker 2: their partner what they really think because they're afraid that,
Speaker 2: you know, something bad will come of it, you know,
Speaker 2: And so we just we estab we create all these
Speaker 2: relationships where we just tiptoe around each other as if
Speaker 2: telling the truth is a terrible thing. But the fact
Speaker 2: of the matter is the truth. The truth can be painful,
Speaker 2: but it doesn't damage you. And this is what a
Speaker 2: lot of people don't understand about the truth. It doesn't damage.
Speaker 2: It's kind of like getting a shot. When you get
Speaker 2: a shot, there's pain when the needle goes in, so
Speaker 2: you feel pain, but it's not harming you. It's just painful.
Speaker 2: And people need to understand that there's something that can
Speaker 2: be painful, but you're not being harmed by it. And
Speaker 2: I think, you know, conversation with someone who will really
Speaker 2: tell you the truth would be that way, you know,
Speaker 2: where it would be painful. And so that's what I
Speaker 2: try to do with people, to say, you know, there,
Speaker 2: I got something I want to tell you, Paul, but
Speaker 2: I'm kind of reluctant to do it because I feel
Speaker 2: like if I say this to you, you know, you
Speaker 2: might be mad at me and it might damage our friendship.
Speaker 2: And then I'll say, so, you know that said, do
Speaker 2: you want me to tell you? And almost always they say, yeah,
Speaker 2: tell me. So now you're asking me for it, you see.
Speaker 3: So that's the permission.
Speaker 2: That's kind of a nice yeah, yeah, so that's back
Speaker 2: to answer your question. That's a nice tactic. If you
Speaker 2: have some really hard, you know, difficult things to say
Speaker 2: to someone you know, ask them for permission and just
Speaker 2: say I'm reluctant to tell you this because I'm afraid
Speaker 2: you're going to be hurt by it or angry and
Speaker 2: I don't want I don't want that to go there,
Speaker 2: but at the same time, I don't want to be disingenuous.
Speaker 2: And then once they ask you, they'll say, yeah, I
Speaker 2: want you to tell me that, right there changes their
Speaker 2: response because now they've asked.
Speaker 3: For Yeah, now that that is gold advice.
Speaker 1: And actually the other bit of advice that I liked
Speaker 1: from that is to look what's behind their behavior too.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know the.
Speaker 1: Old saying, you know, never judge somebody until you've walked
Speaker 1: them mile in their shoes. So from the anger, understanding
Speaker 1: that there's hurt behind the anger and to look for that.
Speaker 1: And one one thing I wanted to talk about you
Speaker 1: kind of meant you touched on it a little bit earlier,
Speaker 1: But I'm becoming more and more focused on this idea
Speaker 1: of your flashlight of your attention. And it's something that
Speaker 1: I got from my wife from Japanese psychology where they
Speaker 1: they talk about the flashlight of your attention is the
Speaker 1: most important thing in your life because and when you
Speaker 1: think about it from a neuroscience perspective, Stein, I think
Speaker 1: you'll agree that attention is a precursor for everything in
Speaker 1: the pream It's a precursor for.
Speaker 3: Emotions and feelings, it's a precursor for auction.
Speaker 1: Has this experience changed Were you direct the flashlight of
Speaker 1: your attention or were that flashlight lingers longer?
Speaker 2: I think I'm more intentional about how I spend my
Speaker 2: time just because I feel like I have less of it.
Speaker 2: There's a there's an urgency that I that I feel
Speaker 2: so for like, let for example, last weekend, I went
Speaker 2: down to Guadalajara, Mexico to visit a friend, and I
Speaker 2: think probably normally I wouldn't have done that, but I
Speaker 2: remember thinking to myself, this might be my only chance
Speaker 2: ants to go. And when I said that to myself,
Speaker 2: this is this will probably be my only chance. Then
Speaker 2: I went versus I think if you talked to me
Speaker 2: five years ago, my response would have been, Oh, there'll
Speaker 2: be another chance, There'll be another opportunity, yes, yes, right,
Speaker 2: And now I realize, no, there's there's like a lot
Speaker 2: of things that you're going to do one last time
Speaker 2: or or you're only going to have one opportunity in
Speaker 2: your whole life to do it. And what are you
Speaker 2: going to say? You know, you're going to say yes
Speaker 2: or no. So I think I've been more open to
Speaker 2: doing some things that maybe you call it spontaneous. But
Speaker 2: I'll give you another just simple example. So I travel
Speaker 2: a good bit for work. And one of the things
Speaker 2: that I realized when I was in the hospital for
Speaker 2: so long is I don't mind the business travel and
Speaker 2: the and the work what I really dislike is the
Speaker 2: hotel room, you know, you know, the isolation of it.
Speaker 2: So I thought, well, if I can, if I can
Speaker 2: stay with friends instead, that would make it better. So,
Speaker 2: you know, I reached out to some friends and like
Speaker 2: they're like, there's a company I work with in Dallas,
Speaker 2: and one of the guys, who's a senior guy with
Speaker 2: the company, I've known for a long time. And I
Speaker 2: told him, I said, look, let me, let me just
Speaker 2: tell you what's going on. It's like, I don't want
Speaker 2: to stay in a hotel anymore. You know, I want
Speaker 2: to stay at somebody's house and his kids are grown
Speaker 2: like mine. And I was like, you know, if you
Speaker 2: and your wife are comfortable, I would like love to
Speaker 2: stay with you guys, and you know, and find a
Speaker 2: way to reciprocate, like you know, take them out to
Speaker 2: and whatnot. And so I've been doing that for a
Speaker 2: year now and it's been wonderful, and you know, I
Speaker 2: really enjoy being there and they enjoy having me, at
Speaker 2: least they act like they enjoy having me, and so
Speaker 2: it's just kind of a win win thing. And so
Speaker 2: I think about that, you know, of the things that
Speaker 2: you don't enjoy but yet are still necessary find a
Speaker 2: way to make it more fulfilling. Yeah, and that sometimes
Speaker 2: and that sometimes means asking someone to help you. And
Speaker 2: I realized one of the things I realized being in
Speaker 2: the hospital is I don't mind it at all if
Speaker 2: people ask me for help, but I really have a
Speaker 2: hard time doing that. And I think I have this
Speaker 2: concern of I don't want to be a burden or
Speaker 2: a problem to someone. And I know there's kind of
Speaker 2: a womb there, you know that that's about because it
Speaker 2: doesn't bother me when people ask for help. But for
Speaker 2: some reason, I've really struggled to do that myself. And
Speaker 2: you know, I remember thinking, I've got to I've got
Speaker 2: to work on that. I've got to be willing to
Speaker 2: ask for help or ask for what I need. The
Speaker 2: person can always say no, but you know if you
Speaker 2: don't ask, But what you you know, people who freely give,
Speaker 2: they'll tell you they get something out of.
Speaker 3: Giving, right, Yes, yes, so mean it.
Speaker 2: Works both ways. So I was I was unbalanced in
Speaker 2: that way.
Speaker 3: Mm hm.
Speaker 1: The the urgency thing is is really interesting and similar
Speaker 1: to your story about going down to I can't remember
Speaker 1: what he said, it was Mexico or whatever to visit
Speaker 1: someone might be that did you get Because I was
Speaker 1: hymning and haying about going back to the UK before
Speaker 1: my operation, and then I actually thought to myself, fucking hell,
Speaker 1: I need to go just in case. And I called
Speaker 1: it my just in case visit, right, and everything was
Speaker 1: so I'd go, I'd visit my navy mats. I visited
Speaker 1: my mates from UNI and I was like, We're going
Speaker 1: out to have a just in case party, just in
Speaker 1: case I didn't make it. On the other side, because
Speaker 1: I actually I thought about it and I thought, well,
Speaker 1: what would I regret if I did die on the
Speaker 1: operating table? What would I regret not having done? And
Speaker 1: And that's the the attitude that I had in facing
Speaker 1: my mortality was was not to be negative, but to
Speaker 1: go I've got a shot here to do stuff or
Speaker 1: to to not have any regrets, and so focusing that
Speaker 1: potential negative outcome on well, what needs to be done right?
Speaker 1: If you're going to cark it on the operating table,
Speaker 1: what would you have regretted not doing? And they were
Speaker 1: the things that I made myself do right. But it
Speaker 1: then spills over, doesn't it to your point that you
Speaker 1: start to live more in the moment and have more
Speaker 1: of that sense of urgency because we actually are. When
Speaker 1: you're confronted with your own death, you realize, fucking hell, Hi,
Speaker 1: just high, not only precious, but just hi.
Speaker 3: What's the word I'm looking for?
Speaker 1: Hi?
Speaker 3: Easily it can be gone life.
Speaker 2: Yeah. You know. The other thing that came to me
Speaker 2: in all this is, you know, when someone has a
Speaker 2: family member or friend that dies, you know, we say
Speaker 2: I'm sorry. In other words, we think of death as
Speaker 2: a bad thing, as an unfortunate thing. And kind of
Speaker 2: where I'm at with right now is it's the next thing.
Speaker 2: I don't have to think of my death or anyone's
Speaker 2: death as a bad thing. I can think of it
Speaker 2: as that's the next thing that happens, right It is
Speaker 2: like you weren't alive, and you know, then you got born,
Speaker 2: and then you lived, then you died, and then whatever
Speaker 2: happens after that. Of course, you know, there's a lot
Speaker 2: of theories on what happens when the physical body dies,
Speaker 2: and I'm no expert, but some of the things that
Speaker 2: people believe I kind of have to chuckle at. But
Speaker 2: you know, I think what happens when when we die
Speaker 2: is that there's a handful of people who really loved
Speaker 2: us and they miss us and they and they grieve
Speaker 2: and they feel bad for a while. Like that's what
Speaker 2: I think happens when we die, is the people who
Speaker 2: love us hurt, but we don't hurt. The person that
Speaker 2: died doesn't hurt. There's no pain, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: If I'm the dead guy, there's no pain for me,
Speaker 2: but my loved ones there is. And but anyway, what
Speaker 2: I'm getting to is is like do we have to
Speaker 2: think of death as this bad thing that we should
Speaker 2: all try to avoid at all costs? Like how's that
Speaker 2: serving us? And again, I'm not saying like I want
Speaker 2: to die, but I'm just saying it's like it's it's
Speaker 2: it's you know, it's okay, you know, it's all right.
Speaker 2: You know it's the next thing. And I don't know
Speaker 2: what it's going to be like. But you know, I'm
Speaker 2: kind of curious. Yes, yes, I'd love to be an expert.
Speaker 2: I'd love to be with these guys who you know,
Speaker 2: you know, yeah, I died and came back and I
Speaker 2: can tell you.
Speaker 1: But I am where I've landed with this. And again,
Speaker 1: I think I think it's such a good exercise to
Speaker 1: really confront your own mortality. And unfortunately, you know, for
Speaker 1: most of us, we are forced into it from that situation.
Speaker 1: But it's I think it's an opportunity deny to many
Speaker 1: to be able to confront your own mortality. And the
Speaker 1: conclusion that I came to is that death is when
Speaker 1: I go to die. By my numbers up, I'm entering
Speaker 1: into life's last great adventure.
Speaker 3: That's it. It's the last adventure.
Speaker 1: And we go into it and we'll either know or
Speaker 1: we won't know. But it's life's last great adventure. And
Speaker 1: it's as you said, it's just the next step.
Speaker 2: And I think the dead guy is not the one suffering.
Speaker 2: It's the loved ones of the dead guys suffer. The
Speaker 2: dead person's free.
Speaker 1: So is there something stand that you would having gone
Speaker 1: through that experience, that you would like your eighteen year
Speaker 1: old self to know, or some of the young people
Speaker 1: out there to know, or even anybody just in terms
Speaker 1: of lessons, But what's the poignant ones.
Speaker 3: That you come come through with this?
Speaker 1: Because I'm sure you analyze that that whole experience, given
Speaker 1: what you actually do, right, it's hard not to analyze
Speaker 1: and watch your own journey through that.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I remember when I was in the hospital and
Speaker 2: my son and one of his best friends came to
Speaker 2: visit me one evening and his his my son's friend
Speaker 2: is a really inquisitive, inquisitive, bright kid, and he was
Speaker 2: asking me about, you know, what I've learned from all
Speaker 2: this and what's changed, And I said, and what advice
Speaker 2: that I have, you know? And I said to him,
Speaker 2: I said, you know, just get on with your life.
Speaker 2: If there's something that you really want to do, don't
Speaker 2: don't wait around for the right time of the perfect situation.
Speaker 2: You know, Uh, live your life with a sense of urgency.
Speaker 2: And because if you don't, then you're then you're waiting
Speaker 2: to start your life. Yes, and that's terrible. So anyway,
Speaker 2: I didn't know it at the time, and I found
Speaker 2: out later. But this kid, he went to his job
Speaker 2: the next day or that week and he quit his
Speaker 2: job and he started his own business that he was
Speaker 2: wanting to do. And he told me about it later.
Speaker 2: I said, well, thank god it's working out for you.
Speaker 2: Otherwise I would have felt like an ass, you know,
Speaker 2: but in just that sense of like, you know, what
Speaker 2: do you want to do with this one wild and
Speaker 2: precious life that you have because you're not going to
Speaker 2: have it for much longer. Yes, you know, and so
Speaker 2: the thing that you've been thinking about doing that you
Speaker 2: haven't had the courage to do. You know, when you're dead,
Speaker 2: you're going to have the courage because you're not going
Speaker 2: to be afraid anymore. But you don't have but you
Speaker 2: ran out of time.
Speaker 1: It's interesting because I had written Dyne the thing for
Speaker 1: me to coach myself or others, seize opportunities, seize them,
Speaker 1: And it's a lie with there's I'm not sure if
Speaker 1: you're familiar with this research from Richard Wiseman, who's a
Speaker 1: British psychologist and a very very good one, but has
Speaker 1: studied lucky people in the UK. Right, And he did
Speaker 1: this massive study where he advertised and he's been on
Speaker 1: TV and all sorts of stuff. Right, So he designed
Speaker 1: this study where he advertised he wanted people who were
Speaker 1: unlucky and people who were lucky, and and so he
Speaker 1: got a whole heap of volunteers and being in the UK,
Speaker 1: there was clearly more people who felt they were unlucky
Speaker 1: than the way they were lucky.
Speaker 3: But he basically did a series.
Speaker 1: Of experiments and analysis of these people and found that
Speaker 1: lucky people are actually no luckier than unlucky people. They
Speaker 1: just take their opportunities because when an opportunity comes, they
Speaker 1: have an optimism bias and they actually go, I'm going
Speaker 1: to go and do this, whereas the un lucky people,
Speaker 1: because of their filter, they still have opportunities, but they
Speaker 1: either don't see the opportunities or they don't take them
Speaker 1: because they go that will not walk out for me,
Speaker 1: or the time isn't right. And and to your point, Stein,
Speaker 1: and if the time isn't right, it might be your
Speaker 1: only time.
Speaker 3: You might not get another shot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I heard a really interesting thing the other day.
Speaker 2: It was actually it was on a TV show called Landman.
Speaker 2: Billy Bob Thornton plays a oil guy in West Texas
Speaker 2: and he's and he's given advice to his teenage daughter
Speaker 2: who has a boyfriend at the time, and he says,
Speaker 2: every relationship that you have is going to fail except
Speaker 2: for the last one, you know, and the kids like seventeen.
Speaker 2: So if this relationship that you have, the boyfriend, if
Speaker 2: this isn't the last one, it's going to fail, you know.
Speaker 2: And I wish someone had said that to me when
Speaker 2: I was young, Like, you know, every relationship you have
Speaker 2: is going to fail. It's going to end. There's going
Speaker 2: to be a break up, you know, and there'll probably
Speaker 2: be some heartache. But if you're lucky the last one,
Speaker 2: there won't be the I mean, it still might be difficult,
Speaker 2: but you know, I think about that same you know
Speaker 2: thought process applies to a lot of things, like sometimes
Speaker 2: you have to take a job that you don't want
Speaker 2: so that you can get the job that you do want. Yes, right,
Speaker 2: And I mean that was one of the pieces of
Speaker 2: advice I gave my son when he's came along. It's like,
Speaker 2: you know, take this job not because you want it,
Speaker 2: but take this job because it's going to help you
Speaker 2: get the job that you want. And I see a
Speaker 2: lot of people they're really reluctant to do that, like,
Speaker 2: you know, I don't want.
Speaker 3: To do that.
Speaker 2: But if you understood that, it was you know, it's
Speaker 2: like it's part of your path, and it's a you know,
Speaker 2: on your journey, there's uphill, right, and there's days where
Speaker 2: you walk in the rain, and that's all part of
Speaker 2: the journey. It's not you know, slightly downhill with the
Speaker 2: wind at your back. That's not that's not what anyone gets.
Speaker 2: But I think a lot of people don't understand that
Speaker 2: doing the difficult thing or the thing that you initially
Speaker 2: don't want in that moment is act. See what's going
Speaker 2: to make you become the person that you want to be.
Speaker 2: You know, it's that saying of you know, hard times
Speaker 2: make strong men, strong men make good times. Good times
Speaker 2: make weak men. Weak men make hard times. I thought
Speaker 2: about that a lot as well. You know, It's like,
Speaker 2: so the question is do you want to be a
Speaker 2: strong person? Yes, okay, then you must embrace the hard times.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Right, And that's the back to where we started where
Speaker 2: It's like, I think most people, if you ask them
Speaker 2: what they really want, what they'll tell you is they
Speaker 2: want their life to be you whan they say they
Speaker 2: want to be happy or whatever. They want their life
Speaker 2: to be easier. They don't want to struggle as much
Speaker 2: as they are. But I think the struggle is absolutely necessary.
Speaker 2: So I would say, is you want to if your
Speaker 2: life is not going well or if you feel stuck,
Speaker 2: Chances are you're not struggling enough. You're not taking on
Speaker 2: them enough difficulty, and you're not taking on enough responsibility.
Speaker 2: You actually have to make things more difficult and challenging
Speaker 2: for yourself. That's how you get unstuck.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you've got to get into the contest of life,
Speaker 1: I think is the key thing is you've got to
Speaker 1: be in it and you've got to look at it
Speaker 1: that life is a contest. I think that's one that
Speaker 1: the Stoics really imprinted upon me is.
Speaker 2: Yes, and the competitions with yourself.
Speaker 1: Exactly, and he said the Olympic Games are upon us.
Speaker 1: There is no time to waste, right, which is that
Speaker 1: sense of urgency Again? The thing that are one of
Speaker 1: the things that really landed for me in that what
Speaker 1: advice would I give myself or my younger self, or
Speaker 1: would I give or have I given my kids?
Speaker 3: Is to give more than you take.
Speaker 1: And from that I mean from an energy perspective, from
Speaker 1: a relationship perspective, and any group that you're in is
Speaker 1: to have the attitude to give more than you take,
Speaker 1: so to be a positive ball of energy. Because as
Speaker 1: I think about this, we're all just little little blots
Speaker 1: of energy.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: If you're in a zoom out over your town and
Speaker 1: my time, you see all of these little dots of
Speaker 1: energy and they're just bumping into each other, right, And
Speaker 1: some of them they're like, I have this kind of
Speaker 1: vision of some of them are colored red and they're angry,
Speaker 1: and they're bouncing off all these other little balls and
Speaker 1: they're making them turn more red. And that's having a
Speaker 1: knock on effect. Right. And when you think about this,
Speaker 1: it's like you fucking you impact the energy of everybody
Speaker 1: that you interact with through your energy. So my thing
Speaker 1: with my kids is really just you need to give
Speaker 1: more than you take and not go into relationships or
Speaker 1: not go into workplaces or whatever it is thinking that
Speaker 1: I want to take more than I give. If we
Speaker 1: can flip out of rhynd, I think that is one
Speaker 1: of the keys to a life of flourishing. Not an
Speaker 1: easy life, but a life of flourishing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when I was in the hospital, I had my
Speaker 2: girlfriend bring my little speaker and so I play music.
Speaker 2: And when the people would come in to clean the room,
Speaker 2: I would ask them what's your favorite music and they
Speaker 2: would tell me, or I would just say do you
Speaker 2: like this, and I'd turn it up. But when the
Speaker 2: people would come and clean a room, I'd turn the
Speaker 2: music up really loud, you know, and kind of you know,
Speaker 2: dance around with them. Yes, And I remember thinking, like,
Speaker 2: imagine having the job of cleaning hospital rooms of people
Speaker 2: that are literally dying, Like that's a shitty job. And
Speaker 2: I remember thinking like, if I can, you know, give
Speaker 2: this woman, you know, ten minutes of joy. And it
Speaker 2: worked and it made me feel better because I could
Speaker 2: see how happy they were, you know. And by the
Speaker 2: end of the month I was there, They're like, oh,
Speaker 2: I love coming to clear in your room, doctor Beacham,
Speaker 2: because you're gonna play good music. We're gonna have fun.
Speaker 2: I said, yeah, why not, you know. And you know,
Speaker 2: I don't know how that came to me, but you know,
Speaker 2: I'm glad that it did. But I mean, it's not
Speaker 2: like a difficult thing, you know. I mean it's just
Speaker 2: doing a hundred of those little things to yourself and
Speaker 2: to other people. Yes, you know again, the you know,
Speaker 2: the walk Away lesson for me is that the joy
Speaker 2: of life is is doing the simple things with grace.
Speaker 2: Like I walk every day now, for I walk an
Speaker 2: hour in the morning, I walk an hour in the afternoon,
Speaker 2: and I look forward to it and it's you know,
Speaker 2: going for a walk is such a simple thing, but
Speaker 2: I get such joy out of it, you know, or
Speaker 2: you know, bumping into people and saying hey to them.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, that's.
Speaker 1: It, Yes, And I see to that point. The thing
Speaker 1: that change. One of the things that changed and when
Speaker 1: I got is I stopped walking with my EarPods. And
Speaker 1: because I used to go out and take my dogs
Speaker 1: out for a walk every.
Speaker 3: Morning and every evening when I'm around.
Speaker 1: And I like to do it at sunset, but sunrise
Speaker 1: and sunset. But I used to listen to podcasts because
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, I'll kill two birds with one stone here.
Speaker 1: And I took my earbuds out and just have forced
Speaker 1: myself to be present, to listen to the birds in
Speaker 1: the morning, to look at the chains, and like to
Speaker 1: see my dogs and having such a great time sniffing around.
Speaker 3: It's those little moments, isn't it.
Speaker 1: And if we can and that's I guess the essence
Speaker 1: of what the Buddhist talks about with mindfulness. It's not
Speaker 1: sitting fucking cross legged in a lotus pose. It's actually
Speaker 1: just being fully engaged in life in all that it
Speaker 1: has to offer, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And there's a lot that life offers us and
Speaker 2: we miss it, you know, because we're caught up in
Speaker 2: something else. Usually ourselves are concerned for ourselves. You know,
Speaker 2: what would your life look like if you were free
Speaker 2: from concern about how you were doing? You know, what
Speaker 2: would happened to you if you didn't think about yourself
Speaker 2: much anymore? You thought about other people or other things.
Speaker 2: The answer is your your quality of life would go
Speaker 2: up significantly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, Stan, this has been as usual for the
Speaker 1: third time, and so much good shit to think about.
Speaker 1: And I mean you are the epitome of the stoic play.
Speaker 1: You're giving rule as well. So I tip my hat
Speaker 1: to you, sir. And what's what's one thing that you
Speaker 1: are very much looking forward to now that you've had
Speaker 1: that second chance from the universe.
Speaker 2: Watching my kids and my grandchild grow up and just
Speaker 2: seeing you know, what they become, that's still the exciting.
Speaker 2: And watch another I mean, you know, where I live,
Speaker 2: there's kids around, and I love I love watch and
Speaker 2: see how they change, you know, and just you know,
Speaker 2: just the day to day growth, you know, or year
Speaker 2: to year growth that you see with kids. I just
Speaker 2: think it's amazing. And so that's, you know, I think
Speaker 2: that's probably the thing that I'm most interested and curious
Speaker 2: about what's going to happen. Is you know, how are
Speaker 2: these people that I know and I've watched them from
Speaker 2: day one? And you know how you know when they're
Speaker 2: full grown adults, what does that look like? I think
Speaker 2: that's the thing I'm most interested in. And then then
Speaker 2: the other thing is is I get I'm sixty three now,
Speaker 2: so I don't know. I lived twenty more years. I
Speaker 2: don't know what it is. But you know, how how
Speaker 2: do I age? Do I age gracefully? You know? Do I?
Speaker 2: You know, I'm just kind of curious to see kind
Speaker 2: of what's next, because there's going to be a next
Speaker 2: thing and I'm really curious to see what that is
Speaker 2: and how I respond to it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I love that the curiosity be. And actually,
Speaker 1: what's written on my bathroom murror right now is growing
Speaker 1: old is a privilege tonight.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I like that growing old as a privilege
Speaker 2: of nine too many I'll remember that, Paul, Thank you
Speaker 2: for that one.
Speaker 3: Very cool. I think you need to write a book
Speaker 3: on this, really.
Speaker 1: I think there's I think there's another book of of
Speaker 1: what you learned, because you've just you've got not only
Speaker 1: amazing insights that you've amassed over your years.
Speaker 3: But but you have.
Speaker 1: Just a way of fucking delivering those insights with impact.
Speaker 1: And I often say the best thing that anybody ever
Speaker 1: said on my podcast was you saying, in order to
Speaker 1: optimize your life, you need to take on as much
Speaker 1: challenges and responsibility as you can tolerate, and every now
Speaker 1: and then you need to walk right to the edge
Speaker 1: of yourself and stir into the abyss like that, look
Speaker 1: over the edge, look over the edge, take.
Speaker 2: On to the edge, don't jump, just look over.
Speaker 1: And me and you have had the benefit of actually
Speaker 1: really looking into the abyss now and walking back and
Speaker 1: taking on the lessons, so that actually in retrospect, and
Speaker 1: I know you're the same because you said at the start,
Speaker 1: is actually a privilege to be able to really stir
Speaker 1: into the abyss and to walk back.
Speaker 2: And that be and not be eternally wounded by m Yeah, yes,
Speaker 2: very true, Very cool.
Speaker 3: Doctor Stanley Beacham. You are frigging awesome.
Speaker 1: So work can people go to find more about you
Speaker 1: and and get your awesome book Elite Minds, which they
Speaker 1: have to get, and and also whether they'll be able
Speaker 1: to find your next book when you've managed to write it.
Speaker 2: Well, you buy everything on Amazon now right, so the
Speaker 2: book you can that's the best play to get it
Speaker 2: is Amazon. And then I have a website, doctor Standbeacham
Speaker 2: dot com and you can track me down that way
Speaker 2: or on LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1: Yeah cool, excellent, Thanks Stan, I will thank you forward
Speaker 1: to seeing you again.
Speaker 3: Cheers mate.
Speaker 2: Okay,