Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven AM.
Speaker 1: As companies across the world pursue generative AI technology, new
Speaker 1: forms of manipulation become possible. At the forefront of this
Speaker 1: are neurotechnologies which directly connect to your brain and collect
Speaker 1: your brain data, and persuasive technologies which can use that
Speaker 1: data to influence how you feel. In countries like China,
Speaker 1: where the tech industry is controlled by the government, the
Speaker 1: use of these technologies for disinformation and social control has
Speaker 1: already taken hold, and as the tech gets better, the
Speaker 1: risks get bigger. Today, senior analyst at the Makata Institute
Speaker 1: for China studies Daria and Biombardo on the rise of
Speaker 1: persuasive technologies and the way we could be exploited without
Speaker 1: even knowing. It's Wednesday. Third, So, Daria, you've recently been
Speaker 1: looking to the ways that the Chinese government is using
Speaker 1: and developing AI. Recently we heard from the Taiwanese government
Speaker 1: that there had been this mass disinformation campaign linked to
Speaker 1: the CCP. Could you tell me a bit about what
Speaker 1: we saw.
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely so.
Speaker 3: What we've been seeing in Taiwan for a while now
Speaker 3: is a sophisticated use of Ai by the Chinese government
Speaker 3: to influence public opinion and disrupt democracy.
Speaker 2: There.
Speaker 4: With just over forty days till the elections, China's election
Speaker 4: interference is ramping up. A scholar says China is sending
Speaker 4: targeted propaganda videos to Taiwan voters by using fake Internet accounts,
Speaker 4: real influencers, and big data analytics. The New York Times
Speaker 4: writes that a new wave of this information is hitting Taiwan,
Speaker 4: testing the ISLA le defenses.
Speaker 3: So for example, during the elections and general elections in
Speaker 3: Taiwan in twenty twenty four, there were very large these
Speaker 3: information campaigns that targeted candidates from the Democratic Progressive Party
Speaker 3: and that included current President Lei Chin term.
Speaker 5: That's presidential candidate William Lai. His Democratic Progressive Party or
Speaker 5: DPP rejects Beijing and wants closer ties with the West.
Speaker 5: But in this YouTube video, Lie praises the pro China opposition,
Speaker 5: claiming they represent Taiwan's mainstream view. Turns out this video
Speaker 5: is a fake Stato got a hootion then produced with
Speaker 5: artificial intelligence using a clip from this actual press conference
Speaker 5: where Lie condemned his rivals.
Speaker 3: These campaigns weren't just your typical fake news stories. You know,
Speaker 3: they used AI generated content like videos and avatars to
Speaker 3: make the messaging more believable but also harder to detect,
Speaker 3: and platforms get flooded with that type of content all
Speaker 3: the time.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 3: In fact, Taiwan's National Security Bureau reported that just in
Speaker 3: the first three months of twenty twenty five, they detected
Speaker 3: over five hundred thousand instances of CCP linked this information.
Speaker 1: And so do we know what effect this disinformation had
Speaker 1: on people in Taiwan on what they believe to be
Speaker 1: true about their country? Right now?
Speaker 3: This is not just peculiar to Taiwan, I think, but
Speaker 3: the impact there has definitely been significant. So these AI
Speaker 3: driven campaigns are usually designed to confuse people and they
Speaker 3: make it much harder for people to trust whatever they
Speaker 3: see online. So by tailoring these messages to specific groups,
Speaker 3: this information becomes much more persuasive, and this has led
Speaker 3: to increased polarization in any places. You know that people
Speaker 3: are more divided and it's harder for them to figure
Speaker 3: out what's true and what's propaganda. So over time, this
Speaker 3: kind of manipulation can really weakened the trust in democratic institutions,
Speaker 3: which is exactly what the Chinese government wants to achieve
Speaker 3: in Taiwan in the optic of gaining control over the island.
Speaker 3: So it's not just about spreading lies, it's about undermining
Speaker 3: the very foundation of democracy.
Speaker 1: And the tech involved in all of this is evolving
Speaker 1: very rapidly when it comes to China. How intertwined is
Speaker 1: that development in the tech sector with the CCP.
Speaker 3: So in China, the government and the tech industry are
Speaker 3: deeply intertwined through many initiatives, and one of them is
Speaker 3: called military civil fusion. This initiative means that private companies
Speaker 3: are often expected to align their innovations with the government's goal,
Speaker 3: and especially tech companies, so whether it's in the space
Speaker 3: of surveillance or propaganda or even military applications.
Speaker 2: For example, companies like Silicon.
Speaker 3: Intelligence or gore Tech are developing AI tools that can
Speaker 3: detect emotions or create lifelike avatars, and emotion detection AI
Speaker 3: can predict when someone is at its most vulnerable to
Speaker 3: manipulation so that you can deliver those targeted messages exactly
Speaker 3: at the right moment, and this can be used to
Speaker 3: suppress protests like it often is, but also to spread
Speaker 3: propaganda or even influence events. So these initiatives are directed
Speaker 3: from the very top of the Chinese Communist Party. In fact,
Speaker 3: Si jimping himself constantly and for size, is that the
Speaker 3: private sector must serve the state's priorities. And it's obviously
Speaker 3: a very different model to what we are used to.
Speaker 3: We have at least some separation between government and business.
Speaker 1: You're talking about the government really working hand in hand
Speaker 1: with private companies to work out how to read emotions
Speaker 1: and then exploit them. Can you tell me a bit
Speaker 1: more about how those models are trained.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, some companies were accused of training these systems by
Speaker 3: analyzing the responses of Oiger detainees in Sinzhang Province of China.
Speaker 3: We're you know, up to one million Oiger Muslims have
Speaker 3: been detained for years now under very suspect circumstansus that
Speaker 3: the United Nations says may account to crimes against humanity.
Speaker 2: So while these detainees.
Speaker 3: Were in prison or in camps, these company is basically
Speaker 3: inter them to train their algorithms. So this is something
Speaker 3: that you know, the Chinese government has achieved a fairly
Speaker 3: high degree of success at home already. So it's something
Speaker 3: that we call tech and hanced authoritarianism. So these tools
Speaker 3: have for a long time allowed the Chinese government to
Speaker 3: monitor people but also increasingly shape how people think and
Speaker 3: how they behave.
Speaker 2: And it's not just happening in China.
Speaker 3: These technologies are being exported and used globally in ways
Speaker 3: that can unfortunately undermine democracy and human rights.
Speaker 1: After the break, how are being influenced without even knowing it? Daria,
Speaker 1: You've been looking into the very rapid evolution happening in
Speaker 1: persuasive technologies. What direction is this technology taking? What types
Speaker 1: of tech are we going to see more and more of?
Speaker 3: So aside from generative AI that we are all more
Speaker 3: familiar with, there is things that are a little bit
Speaker 3: more They got a little bit deeper into influencing us
Speaker 3: with us noticing, So things like immersive technologies, you know
Speaker 3: when you wear wearable devices that can send you pins
Speaker 3: and nudges and get you to do things. Even more,
Speaker 3: things like neurotechnologies, so technologies that are able to directly
Speaker 3: connect to your brain and collect your brain data. So
Speaker 3: if it's any sort of data that your brain produces
Speaker 3: in the form of thoughts or things like that, it
Speaker 3: sounds like far fetched and kind of very far away
Speaker 3: in the future. But if you look at the development
Speaker 3: of these companies, these things are coming quite quickly, and
Speaker 3: we will soon find ourselves in a situation where from
Speaker 3: a day to the next there will be delivered to
Speaker 3: the public, and then we don't have the right regulation
Speaker 3: set up to make sure that we have the guide
Speaker 3: rails that we as individuals have the protection to not
Speaker 3: be completely exploited by these technologies, but also by the
Speaker 3: people who control these technologies, be that you know, tech
Speaker 3: moguls or authoritarian states.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we're talking about tech that can read us,
Speaker 1: influence us, influence how we might be feeling. But are
Speaker 1: we likely to know that that is happening. Are we
Speaker 1: likely to register that we're being influenced by perspective technologies
Speaker 1: as it's happening.
Speaker 3: Honestly, probably not, or like not in most cases unless
Speaker 3: the most obvious cases. This is what these technologies are
Speaker 3: designed to do. They're designed to influence in a way.
Speaker 3: There is such ale and increasingly undetectable, So it's not
Speaker 3: our fault for not being able to pick it up.
Speaker 3: But it's just by design and how these technologies are developed.
Speaker 3: But don't get me wrong, you know they do have
Speaker 3: a lot of positive applications. However, things like AI powered
Speaker 3: chat bots that we use every day now they can
Speaker 3: weave propaganda into what feels like a casual conversation, So
Speaker 3: you just wouldn't really be able to pick it up
Speaker 3: unless you were really careful. It's just manipulation that feels
Speaker 3: very personal, and it makes it harder to spot. So
Speaker 3: that's why I think public education is really really important
Speaker 3: on this.
Speaker 1: When you look at so called perspective tech and how
Speaker 1: it's advancing, is there any one development in particular that
Speaker 1: you think about. I mean, what keeps you up at
Speaker 1: night when you're thinking about all of this.
Speaker 3: I think neurotechnologies is definitely something that's quite spooky to me,
Speaker 3: especially when now increasingly companies are able to read brain wavelength.
Speaker 3: If one day companies are actually able to predict what
Speaker 3: we're thinking before we even think that, then they can change.
Speaker 2: Those thoughts, it's really scary.
Speaker 3: I actually don't know whether we truly want that from
Speaker 3: tech companies. So something I really want to emphasize is
Speaker 3: that I do think we should start trying to shape
Speaker 3: these technologies in a way that really benefits society and
Speaker 3: that follows the values that we want to achieve not
Speaker 3: just reinforcing control or manipulation, either for commercial or political purposes.
Speaker 1: These technologies, as you say, they're being used around the world.
Speaker 1: If we were to focus that on have CCP is
Speaker 1: thinking about and how it's using this kind of technology,
Speaker 1: What are the implications for us here in Australia.
Speaker 2: I think the implications are really profound.
Speaker 3: Chinese companies that are subjects to a CCP oversight, they
Speaker 3: are exporting technologies globally, including to Australia.
Speaker 2: Something that is peculiar to.
Speaker 3: China is that under Chinese law, these companies are required
Speaker 3: to share data with the government under national security circumstances.
Speaker 3: So this raises significant security and privacy concerns for Australia.
Speaker 3: This means that we really should be vigilant about the
Speaker 3: technologies that we adopt and the technologies that we become
Speaker 3: dependent on, especially in light of the potential risks that
Speaker 3: these pose to our national security and democratic values.
Speaker 1: And how do you think Australia is going on that
Speaker 1: on its ability to regulate these kinds of technologies. Do
Speaker 1: you think that we are prepared for what's coming?
Speaker 3: You know, the Australian government has made some progress especially
Speaker 3: in addressing cyber foreign interference by other states, but it
Speaker 3: still leaves behind, especially when you think of about how
Speaker 3: quickly persuasive technologies are developing. So there is a lack
Speaker 3: of comprehensive regulation. But this is true for most countries
Speaker 3: around the world. It's not just Australia, and so most
Speaker 3: countries are just not prepared to address the ethical and
Speaker 3: security risks, especially when they originate from authoritarian states like China.
Speaker 3: So Australia really should start investing more in domestic research
Speaker 3: to establish ethical guidelines, not just for AI, but for
Speaker 3: a whole set of potentially dangerous technologies.
Speaker 1: Well, Daria, thank you for talking to me.
Speaker 2: It's been very interesting. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: News today, the Prime Minister Anthony Alberanzi has hit back
Speaker 1: at comments from Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Nyahu and echoed
Speaker 1: by the Israeli Embassy in Canberra, that there is no
Speaker 1: starvation crisis in Gaza. It's been reported that Albonzi told
Speaker 1: the Labor Caucus room that Israel's stance is quote beyond comprehension.
Speaker 1: Two leading human rights organizations in Israel have this week
Speaker 1: said that the country is committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza,
Speaker 1: and the UN's Climate chief is urging Australia to take
Speaker 1: more ambitious climate action. Simon Steel told an independent industry
Speaker 1: body in Australia this week that quote, bog standard is
Speaker 1: beneath you, and argued that colossal economic rewards are waiting
Speaker 1: for countries who aim higher. Steele called Australia's September announcement
Speaker 1: of a new twenty thirty five emissions production target a
Speaker 1: potential defining moment for Australia. I'm Ruby Jones. This is
Speaker 1: seven am. Thanks for listening.