WEBVTT - How China uses persuasive technology for social control 0:00:01.560 --> 0:00:10.600 Hi, I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven AM. 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:14.640 As companies across the world pursue generative AI technology, new 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:18.319 forms of manipulation become possible. At the forefront of this 0:00:18.520 --> 0:00:22.480 are neurotechnologies which directly connect to your brain and collect 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:26.400 your brain data, and persuasive technologies which can use that 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:30.680 data to influence how you feel. In countries like China, 0:00:30.760 --> 0:00:33.519 where the tech industry is controlled by the government, the 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:37.440 use of these technologies for disinformation and social control has 0:00:37.520 --> 0:00:40.720 already taken hold, and as the tech gets better, the 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:45.240 risks get bigger. Today, senior analyst at the Makata Institute 0:00:45.240 --> 0:00:48.720 for China studies Daria and Biombardo on the rise of 0:00:48.800 --> 0:00:52.640 persuasive technologies and the way we could be exploited without 0:00:52.680 --> 0:01:07.600 even knowing. It's Wednesday. Third, So, Daria, you've recently been 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:10.880 looking to the ways that the Chinese government is using 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:17.319 and developing AI. Recently we heard from the Taiwanese government 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:21.760 that there had been this mass disinformation campaign linked to 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:24.400 the CCP. Could you tell me a bit about what 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:24.760 we saw. 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:26.280 Yes, absolutely so. 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:29.360 What we've been seeing in Taiwan for a while now 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:33.959 is a sophisticated use of Ai by the Chinese government 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:37.920 to influence public opinion and disrupt democracy. 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:38.319 There. 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:42.240 With just over forty days till the elections, China's election 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:46.080 interference is ramping up. A scholar says China is sending 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:51.000 targeted propaganda videos to Taiwan voters by using fake Internet accounts, 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:55.160 real influencers, and big data analytics. The New York Times 0:01:55.200 --> 0:01:58.760 writes that a new wave of this information is hitting Taiwan, 0:01:59.240 --> 0:02:00.960 testing the ISLA le defenses. 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:04.920 So for example, during the elections and general elections in 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:08.760 Taiwan in twenty twenty four, there were very large these 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:13.840 information campaigns that targeted candidates from the Democratic Progressive Party 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:17.440 and that included current President Lei Chin term. 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:23.880 That's presidential candidate William Lai. His Democratic Progressive Party or 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:29.679 DPP rejects Beijing and wants closer ties with the West. 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:34.000 But in this YouTube video, Lie praises the pro China opposition, 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:38.680 claiming they represent Taiwan's mainstream view. Turns out this video 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:41.720 is a fake Stato got a hootion then produced with 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:45.720 artificial intelligence using a clip from this actual press conference 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:47.760 where Lie condemned his rivals. 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:53.280 These campaigns weren't just your typical fake news stories. You know, 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:58.560 they used AI generated content like videos and avatars to 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:02.639 make the messaging more believable but also harder to detect, 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:06.840 and platforms get flooded with that type of content all 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:07.280 the time. 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:07.680 Now. 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:12.760 In fact, Taiwan's National Security Bureau reported that just in 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:16.800 the first three months of twenty twenty five, they detected 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:22.120 over five hundred thousand instances of CCP linked this information. 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:26.600 And so do we know what effect this disinformation had 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:30.520 on people in Taiwan on what they believe to be 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:32.320 true about their country? Right now? 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:35.680 This is not just peculiar to Taiwan, I think, but 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:40.280 the impact there has definitely been significant. So these AI 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:44.800 driven campaigns are usually designed to confuse people and they 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:47.720 make it much harder for people to trust whatever they 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:52.360 see online. So by tailoring these messages to specific groups, 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:57.280 this information becomes much more persuasive, and this has led 0:03:57.320 --> 0:04:01.840 to increased polarization in any places. You know that people 0:04:02.320 --> 0:04:05.160 are more divided and it's harder for them to figure 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:12.440 out what's true and what's propaganda. So over time, this 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:17.320 kind of manipulation can really weakened the trust in democratic institutions, 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:21.159 which is exactly what the Chinese government wants to achieve 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:25.400 in Taiwan in the optic of gaining control over the island. 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:31.039 So it's not just about spreading lies, it's about undermining 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:33.560 the very foundation of democracy. 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:39.120 And the tech involved in all of this is evolving 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:44.599 very rapidly when it comes to China. How intertwined is 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:48.200 that development in the tech sector with the CCP. 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:52.400 So in China, the government and the tech industry are 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:57.440 deeply intertwined through many initiatives, and one of them is 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:02.800 called military civil fusion. This initiative means that private companies 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:07.839 are often expected to align their innovations with the government's goal, 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:11.599 and especially tech companies, so whether it's in the space 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:16.560 of surveillance or propaganda or even military applications. 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:20.000 For example, companies like Silicon. 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:24.600 Intelligence or gore Tech are developing AI tools that can 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:30.520 detect emotions or create lifelike avatars, and emotion detection AI 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:35.479 can predict when someone is at its most vulnerable to 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:39.359 manipulation so that you can deliver those targeted messages exactly 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:42.600 at the right moment, and this can be used to 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:47.200 suppress protests like it often is, but also to spread 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:53.040 propaganda or even influence events. So these initiatives are directed 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:56.920 from the very top of the Chinese Communist Party. In fact, 0:05:57.360 --> 0:06:01.400 Si jimping himself constantly and for size, is that the 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:05.279 private sector must serve the state's priorities. And it's obviously 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:07.440 a very different model to what we are used to. 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:12.719 We have at least some separation between government and business. 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:16.800 You're talking about the government really working hand in hand 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:21.279 with private companies to work out how to read emotions 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:25.200 and then exploit them. Can you tell me a bit 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:27.839 more about how those models are trained. 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:33.560 Absolutely, some companies were accused of training these systems by 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:40.640 analyzing the responses of Oiger detainees in Sinzhang Province of China. 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:44.479 We're you know, up to one million Oiger Muslims have 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:50.000 been detained for years now under very suspect circumstansus that 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:53.279 the United Nations says may account to crimes against humanity. 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:56.279 So while these detainees. 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:59.600 Were in prison or in camps, these company is basically 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:05.800 inter them to train their algorithms. So this is something 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:09.320 that you know, the Chinese government has achieved a fairly 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:12.840 high degree of success at home already. So it's something 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:18.320 that we call tech and hanced authoritarianism. So these tools 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:22.240 have for a long time allowed the Chinese government to 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:27.960 monitor people but also increasingly shape how people think and 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:29.000 how they behave. 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:31.960 And it's not just happening in China. 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:37.320 These technologies are being exported and used globally in ways 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:42.960 that can unfortunately undermine democracy and human rights. 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:53.360 After the break, how are being influenced without even knowing it? Daria, 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:56.600 You've been looking into the very rapid evolution happening in 0:07:56.640 --> 0:08:02.040 persuasive technologies. What direction is this technology taking? What types 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:04.240 of tech are we going to see more and more of? 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:09.720 So aside from generative AI that we are all more 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:13.160 familiar with, there is things that are a little bit 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:16.880 more They got a little bit deeper into influencing us 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:21.640 with us noticing, So things like immersive technologies, you know 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:25.880 when you wear wearable devices that can send you pins 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:29.560 and nudges and get you to do things. Even more, 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:33.959 things like neurotechnologies, so technologies that are able to directly 0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:38.440 connect to your brain and collect your brain data. So 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:41.559 if it's any sort of data that your brain produces 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:44.120 in the form of thoughts or things like that, it 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:46.560 sounds like far fetched and kind of very far away 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:49.040 in the future. But if you look at the development 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:52.640 of these companies, these things are coming quite quickly, and 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:55.600 we will soon find ourselves in a situation where from 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:58.240 a day to the next there will be delivered to 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:01.559 the public, and then we don't have the right regulation 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:04.040 set up to make sure that we have the guide 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:08.000 rails that we as individuals have the protection to not 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:11.920 be completely exploited by these technologies, but also by the 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:15.680 people who control these technologies, be that you know, tech 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:18.679 moguls or authoritarian states. 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:21.880 Yeah, so we're talking about tech that can read us, 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:25.800 influence us, influence how we might be feeling. But are 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:29.200 we likely to know that that is happening. Are we 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:34.479 likely to register that we're being influenced by perspective technologies 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:35.440 as it's happening. 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:39.960 Honestly, probably not, or like not in most cases unless 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:43.280 the most obvious cases. This is what these technologies are 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:46.240 designed to do. They're designed to influence in a way. 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:50.640 There is such ale and increasingly undetectable, So it's not 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:52.679 our fault for not being able to pick it up. 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:57.280 But it's just by design and how these technologies are developed. 0:09:57.600 --> 0:09:59.440 But don't get me wrong, you know they do have 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:05.200 a lot of positive applications. However, things like AI powered 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:08.320 chat bots that we use every day now they can 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:13.960 weave propaganda into what feels like a casual conversation, So 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:17.440 you just wouldn't really be able to pick it up 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:21.600 unless you were really careful. It's just manipulation that feels 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:24.840 very personal, and it makes it harder to spot. So 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:27.959 that's why I think public education is really really important 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:28.280 on this. 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:32.560 When you look at so called perspective tech and how 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:37.800 it's advancing, is there any one development in particular that 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:40.480 you think about. I mean, what keeps you up at 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:42.160 night when you're thinking about all of this. 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:48.080 I think neurotechnologies is definitely something that's quite spooky to me, 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:54.800 especially when now increasingly companies are able to read brain wavelength. 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:58.760 If one day companies are actually able to predict what 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:02.760 we're thinking before we even think that, then they can change. 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:04.280 Those thoughts, it's really scary. 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:08.360 I actually don't know whether we truly want that from 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:12.640 tech companies. So something I really want to emphasize is 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:16.079 that I do think we should start trying to shape 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:20.640 these technologies in a way that really benefits society and 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:24.000 that follows the values that we want to achieve not 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:31.840 just reinforcing control or manipulation, either for commercial or political purposes. 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:38.440 These technologies, as you say, they're being used around the world. 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:43.080 If we were to focus that on have CCP is 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:45.800 thinking about and how it's using this kind of technology, 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:50.400 What are the implications for us here in Australia. 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:53.280 I think the implications are really profound. 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:59.800 Chinese companies that are subjects to a CCP oversight, they 0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:03.479 are exporting technologies globally, including to Australia. 0:12:04.040 --> 0:12:05.880 Something that is peculiar to. 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:10.160 China is that under Chinese law, these companies are required 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:15.080 to share data with the government under national security circumstances. 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:20.720 So this raises significant security and privacy concerns for Australia. 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:24.840 This means that we really should be vigilant about the 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:28.000 technologies that we adopt and the technologies that we become 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:32.160 dependent on, especially in light of the potential risks that 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:36.400 these pose to our national security and democratic values. 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:39.959 And how do you think Australia is going on that 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:44.640 on its ability to regulate these kinds of technologies. Do 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:46.839 you think that we are prepared for what's coming? 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:51.600 You know, the Australian government has made some progress especially 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:57.400 in addressing cyber foreign interference by other states, but it 0:12:57.520 --> 0:13:00.360 still leaves behind, especially when you think of about how 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:05.320 quickly persuasive technologies are developing. So there is a lack 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:08.880 of comprehensive regulation. But this is true for most countries 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:12.480 around the world. It's not just Australia, and so most 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:16.200 countries are just not prepared to address the ethical and 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:22.440 security risks, especially when they originate from authoritarian states like China. 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:27.520 So Australia really should start investing more in domestic research 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:31.520 to establish ethical guidelines, not just for AI, but for 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:34.760 a whole set of potentially dangerous technologies. 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:40.560 Well, Daria, thank you for talking to me. 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:43.640 It's been very interesting. Thank you for having me. 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:03.320 News today, the Prime Minister Anthony Alberanzi has hit back 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:07.079 at comments from Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Nyahu and echoed 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:09.840 by the Israeli Embassy in Canberra, that there is no 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:14.320 starvation crisis in Gaza. It's been reported that Albonzi told 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:18.800 the Labor Caucus room that Israel's stance is quote beyond comprehension. 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:23.080 Two leading human rights organizations in Israel have this week 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:29.119 said that the country is committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza, 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:33.120 and the UN's Climate chief is urging Australia to take 0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:37.400 more ambitious climate action. Simon Steel told an independent industry 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:40.600 body in Australia this week that quote, bog standard is 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:44.560 beneath you, and argued that colossal economic rewards are waiting 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:49.160 for countries who aim higher. Steele called Australia's September announcement 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:52.240 of a new twenty thirty five emissions production target a 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:56.680 potential defining moment for Australia. I'm Ruby Jones. This is 0:14:56.720 --> 0:15:08.280 seven am. Thanks for listening.