1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:03,119 Speaker 1: Welcome to Fear and Greed Sunday feature. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: Chris cuff is a bit of a legend in funds management. 3 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 1: He's one of the most well known investors in Australia, 4 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:13,039 Speaker 1: having led large companies and funds during a stellar career. 5 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: More recently, he's turned into one of our most prominent philanthropists. 6 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: In this feature, Chris speaks to me about how Third 7 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: Link Investment Managers has donated almost twenty two million dollars 8 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: in fees to charity and why he was inspired to 9 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 1: set up Australian philanthropic Services. I hope you enjoyed the chat, 10 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: Chris cuff Io, Welcome to Fear and Greed and thank you. 11 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: Why have you become so philanthropic? And perhaps you've always 12 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: been philanthropic, but this seems to be your big motivation nowadays. 13 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 2: Look, I think I probably always was. 14 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 3: I suspect a lot of people are, but they don't 15 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 3: always have the time with the means. But I certainly 16 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 3: became a little more famous at a point in time 17 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 3: than I wanted to be. 18 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:06,759 Speaker 2: I'd rather have stayed nice in private, but that wasn't 19 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:07,199 Speaker 2: the case. 20 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 3: So I thought, well, I might as well use this 21 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 3: fame and see if I can do a bit of 22 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:13,759 Speaker 3: good with it. So I've done a number of things 23 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 3: over the years to try and combine investment with philanthropy. 24 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 3: So use my base skills to increase philanthropy in Australia. 25 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: And I don't really want to go into history, but 26 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 1: you've got good press and bad press at different times 27 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: in your career, and you were a really well known 28 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: fund manager. I have heard you speak before and you 29 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:36,320 Speaker 1: just said at one point and you kind of were 30 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:38,119 Speaker 1: a bit jack of the whole lot because you didn't 31 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: want a profile, but kind of at one point you thought, actually, 32 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: if I'm going to have a profile and I'm stuck 33 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 1: with it, why don't I use it. Isn't that the story? 34 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's pretty much the story. And the bad press 35 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 3: was wrong press, it was missreported. But as time went on, 36 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 3: people found out the truth and I think that's allowed 37 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 3: me to open a lot of doors and do a 38 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 3: lot of things. So I I really have just turned 39 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 3: that into a useful profile in helping charity. So the 40 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 3: first one of those was, as you mentioned in the intro, 41 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 3: Third Link Growth Fund, was that the fund I put 42 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 3: together an Australian equity fund of funds where I wanted 43 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 3: to give investors in the fund, so it was promoted 44 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 3: to the public. It's currently about one hundred and seventy 45 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 3: million dollars in size. It's an Australian equities investment that 46 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 3: anyone can go into. It's a retail product and the 47 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 3: underlying fund managers I use because it's a fund of funds, 48 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 3: they've all agreed to work for no fee and up 49 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 3: the top of that my fund charge is a fee, 50 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 3: but that fee all goes to charity. 51 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:56,119 Speaker 1: Okay, so that twenty two million dollars of how many 52 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:57,679 Speaker 1: years and where does the money go to? How do 53 00:02:57,720 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: you pick your charities? 54 00:02:59,040 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been. 55 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 3: Running the fun for about sixteen years. 56 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 2: It started small. It's a reasonable. 57 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 3: Size now so that currently peels off about giveaway around 58 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 3: about one point seven million. 59 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:08,959 Speaker 2: Dollars a year. 60 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,239 Speaker 3: I choose the charities based on sometimes it's a theme. 61 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 2: For many years, it's been. 62 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 3: Helping kids who've not had a grade lot in life. 63 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 3: It might be Indigenous kids who might be unemployed, and 64 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 3: might kids suffering mental health, but also help other organizations. 65 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 3: Gratton Institute has been a favorite. The Ethics Institute, but 66 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 3: quite a few. They're all shown on the website as 67 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 3: a comprehensive website for Third Link Growth Fun and shows 68 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 3: all the charities supported over the years. They tend to 69 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 3: be small to medium sized charities who really need the funding. 70 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, Estraining philanthropic Services then that came first. Though 71 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: why did you set that one up? At? 72 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 2: Well? 73 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: How does it work? I think I know why he 74 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: set it up, but how does it work? 75 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 2: Yeah? 76 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 3: Australian Film and the Tropic Services actually came slightly after 77 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 3: Third Link Growth Fund, but they were similar. But I 78 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 3: had a view that there was a particular type of 79 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 3: filmanosthropic vehicle called an ancillary fund, private ancillary fund or 80 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:16,359 Speaker 3: public ancillary fund that people who wanted to give money 81 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 3: away could utilize and give money away, perhaps more efficiently 82 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 3: and effectively. But they were pretty much unknown as an 83 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 3: unknown piece of law tax law. And I set up 84 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 3: a private ancillary fund myself in two thousand and seven 85 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 3: I think it was, and it was a pretty clunky. 86 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 2: Horrible experience. So I thought, well, set. 87 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 3: Up an organization that would be a charity itself, but 88 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 3: the organization would focus on helping philanthropists people with who 89 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 3: wanted to give money away. Help the philanthropists set up 90 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 3: better structures and give perhaps give more away over time, 91 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 3: and roll the clock forward twelve year, thirteen years. We 92 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 3: now administer and these ancillary funds for just on one 93 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:09,919 Speaker 3: thousand clients we have. We look after about two point 94 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 3: three billion dollars on behalf of those clients, and they 95 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 3: give away around one hundred and sixty million dollars a 96 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 3: year and increasing. 97 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 2: So the things working well. 98 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 3: It's working really well, and it's not philanthropists. 99 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 2: Sounds like something for the rich. It's not always the rich. 100 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 3: Some people have got a lot of money, but others 101 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 3: can start these structures with as little as fifty thousand dollars. 102 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: Say with me, Chris, We'll be back in a minute. 103 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 1: I'm speaking to Chris cuff Ao. 104 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 2: Miniestra. 105 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: Compared to the US, at least Australia doesn't have that 106 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: history of philanthropy. At one point is to put the 107 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: BTW Rich List together, and I remember Dick Smith being 108 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,919 Speaker 1: very upset at the time because he said you should 109 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: actually have a list of philanthropists. The thing is most 110 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: people didn't want to tell us. Most people don't want 111 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,359 Speaker 1: to say how much money they're giving away. Is that 112 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 1: a good or a bad thing? How do we encourage 113 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: an environment of philanthropy. 114 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 3: Well, I don't know whether it's good or bad that 115 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 3: if you want to talk about it a lot. I 116 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 3: think certainly in the US as a culture of you know, 117 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 3: you talk about which foundations you might support. 118 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 2: The US was you. 119 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:24,480 Speaker 3: Know a lot of the big charitable foundations of fancy 120 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 3: names that have been there for decades and decades and decades. 121 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 3: The Ford Foundation as an example, or the Gates Foundation. 122 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 2: These are big things. 123 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 3: People like talking about those things in America because they've 124 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 3: grown up with it. But I think wealth in Australia 125 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 3: is still relatively new. These structures I'm talking about ancillary funds, 126 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 3: they haven't been around that long and they are a 127 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 3: much better way I believe to give and it's really 128 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 3: not being well known amongst. 129 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:54,679 Speaker 2: Wealth advisors or the wealth. 130 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:59,160 Speaker 3: So that's part of my rationale to set up Australian 131 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 3: film thropics and get the word out there. I mean 132 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 3: we're from a fairly you know, we started with nothing. 133 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 3: We're now the biggest charitable player in Australia and setting 134 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 3: these things up and administering them. And we've really only 135 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 3: just got started, so I'm confident the future will see 136 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 3: a lot more philanthropy in Australia. 137 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: How do you bring some of the stuff that we've 138 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 1: been reading about? You said ASEX listed companies who invest 139 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: in AX listed companies in the first energy. We hear 140 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: lots about corporate culture. There's some really high profile examples 141 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: at the moment running through the media without commenting on 142 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: them specifically. How do you kind of choose your companies? 143 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: How do you think about stuff like corporate culture, like 144 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: the renewable energy shift, those kind of mega themes. Sometimes 145 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: I wonder do they matter or not? Is it just 146 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: all about getting the more money you make for charity 147 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: the better? 148 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 2: Well? 149 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 3: I mentioned that within the fund I run third Link 150 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 3: Growth Funded Again, which is an Australian equity fund, I 151 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 3: use underlying investment managers, So I'm not selecting stocks directly myself, 152 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 3: but the fund managers I select, which by the way, 153 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 3: are based on merit and years of me being in 154 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 3: this industry and thinking I have some idea of who 155 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 3: does a good job. They in turn price all those 156 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 3: things so they take into account things to do with 157 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 3: the ESG, governance, the environment, society, governance. They take into 158 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 3: account those things when they price the stock or climate 159 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 3: change or so that's just part of the process. 160 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: Okay, what would you like to achieve? Do you have 161 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 1: a goal in terms of how many philanthropists, how much 162 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: money something or other? A goalpast that in five or 163 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: ten years you could sort of walk away from it 164 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: and say, hey, this is what we did well. 165 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 3: It's interesting question with Thirdly in Growth fund. To start with, 166 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 3: I want to achieve a really great investment for investors. 167 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 3: So that is one of the few funds in Australia 168 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 3: that's actually beaten the All Ordinaries Index, the Big Index 169 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 3: over the life of the fund. Hardly any fund managers 170 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:15,439 Speaker 3: do that. So I'm giving people a very good investment 171 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 3: to begin with. If I can keep giving away a 172 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 3: couple of million dollars a year to charities, I will 173 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 3: do that for as long as I'm cognitively able, and 174 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 3: the underlying fund managers are happy to keep doing it, 175 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 3: and I think they are really pressed with it. I mean, 176 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 3: it's great to be able to give a couple of 177 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 3: million dollars years like a community that we're all enjoying 178 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 3: being part of. Frustrating philanthropic services that that organization. That 179 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 3: my goal there is that these ancillary funds become as 180 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 3: popular as for wealth advisors, as talking about self many 181 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:55,079 Speaker 3: superfunds or superannuation in general, that it becomes into the 182 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 3: very common vernacular to talk about philanthropy as part of 183 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 3: a person financial planning needs. And the third organization we 184 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 3: haven't mentioned. I share a listed company called Hearts and 185 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:13,199 Speaker 3: Minds Investments Limited. This is on the Australian Stock Exchange 186 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 3: ticker HM one, and that gives away a percent and 187 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 3: a half of its assets a year to medical research 188 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 3: in Australia. So we're now giving away very significant amounts 189 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 3: of money. I think we're up to about sixty million 190 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 3: dollars to medical research. 191 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 2: That's fantastic. 192 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,559 Speaker 3: The common theme with all these things that I'm involved 193 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 3: with is there's a fair investment side to each of 194 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 3: these activities as well, and that's what I enjoy. I 195 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 3: can use the base skill and help society and hopefully 196 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,079 Speaker 3: through the things I do that we become one of 197 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 3: the bigger contributors to the charitable world. 198 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 1: Chris, thank you for talking to Hear and Greed. 199 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:55,719 Speaker 2: Thank you. 200 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,199 Speaker 1: That was Chris caff Ao, chairman and founder of Australian 201 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 1: philanthropic services and the founding director and portfolio manager of 202 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: Third Link Growth Fund. Of course, if you're making investments, 203 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: always seek your own personal advice. We are not an 204 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: investment podcast. This is the Fear and Greed Business Interview. 205 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: Join us every morning for the full episode of Fear 206 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,079 Speaker 1: and Greed Business Years for people who make their own decisions. 207 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: I'm Sean Almer. Enjoy your day.