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Speaker 1: Apodge production, Welcome to Real Crime with Adam shand I'm

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Speaker 1: Your Host Adam Shand. Sunshine and Melbourne's West produced some

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Speaker 1: of the most notorious and brutal criminals.

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Speaker 2: Victoria Police are under pressure after a series of shootings

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Speaker 2: and a fire bombing in Melbourne's local residents are afraid

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Speaker 2: they're getting caught in the middle of a gangland war.

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Speaker 1: Names like Dino Debra, Mark Mehlia, Paul Calipolitis and Andrew

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Speaker 1: Benji Venyumin have passed into history due to the underbelly

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Speaker 1: story of Melbourne's gangland War. He had an extensive criminal history,

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Speaker 1: including convictions for trafficking heroin and assaulting police. In running

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Speaker 1: my book Big Shots on the Gangland War, I found

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Speaker 1: myself immersed in Sunshine and the atmosphere that produced these fearless,

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Speaker 1: dangerous criminals.

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Speaker 2: We say they believe the violences drug related, but have

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Speaker 2: so far made no arrests.

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Speaker 1: George Zionas, as a teenager, walked those same brutal streets

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Speaker 1: and became known as the King of Sunshine, building a

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Speaker 1: drug empire before he was old enough to vote.

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Speaker 3: To the people on the outside, the are notorious characters.

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Speaker 3: To people like me, their friends and family. My dream

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Speaker 3: when I was a kid to die fighting. If I

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Speaker 3: died fighting beside my brothers, that would have been the

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Speaker 3: best day of my life. You put a knife to

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Speaker 3: my throat, you put a gun to my head. There's

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Speaker 3: no rules for me after that. I will never wrong you.

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Speaker 3: But if you wrong me, then I'm going to do something.

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Speaker 3: If you just chopped my finger off, I will chop

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Speaker 3: your hands off and your feet off.

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Speaker 4: And to me, that was fair enough.

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Speaker 1: He managed to get out and has decided to share

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Speaker 1: his story. Thanks for joining me.

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Speaker 4: George, Thank you, You're welcome.

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Speaker 1: What's led you to decide to share what you did

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Speaker 1: as a teenager?

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Speaker 3: I suppose it'll be my book that I'm writing. I

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Speaker 3: feel like I need to get it out there, get

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Speaker 3: the story.

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Speaker 1: Because it was brutal and traumatic, what you were involved in,

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Speaker 1: what you saw. What Mark do you think it's left

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Speaker 1: on you?

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Speaker 4: What Mark?

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Speaker 3: I can't say it stays with you for a long time,

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Speaker 3: but it's been almost thirty years now, thirty years, that's

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Speaker 3: a long time. So for me, I have to think

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Speaker 3: about a little bit to remember how those times were.

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Speaker 1: What was it about sunshine back in those days?

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Speaker 3: Sunshine I'll tell you one thing that you can say

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Speaker 3: about the people of Sunshine that you can't help respect.

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Speaker 3: There's no victim mentality people. They grow up, they're poor,

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Speaker 3: their parents are working, their parents aren't home most of

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Speaker 3: the time. Nothing to eat maybe, but they don't complain

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Speaker 3: about it. They go out and do what they have

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Speaker 3: to do. And a lot of kids at that time,

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Speaker 3: and I think I remember the nineties was a recession

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Speaker 3: and parents were working two jobs at a time and

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Speaker 3: they couldn't be home all the time, so the kids

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Speaker 3: were on the street a lot.

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Speaker 1: So where did you get to in terms of the

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Speaker 1: criminal empire that you created in Sunshine? Tell me at

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Speaker 1: the height of.

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Speaker 3: What and't call it a criminal empire. I just grew

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Speaker 3: up in those streets and I just knew those people

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Speaker 3: that you mentioned, and we grew up together.

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Speaker 4: That's all.

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Speaker 1: So what was your business though?

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Speaker 4: My business as a kid.

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Speaker 3: A lot of the times when you're hanging around Charlie's

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Speaker 3: in Sunshine, they're a lot of the thieves and the

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Speaker 3: drug addicts. They come through and they sell you stolen goods.

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Speaker 3: That's most of the business that you did back then.

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Speaker 3: I'd go to the shops bring back something that's worth

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Speaker 3: one hundred dollars, give it to you for twenty or

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Speaker 3: even ten dollars, and you sell it for twenty thirty.

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Speaker 4: How you made some money.

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Speaker 1: Because Charlie's was a pinball parlor in the main threat

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Speaker 1: of sunshine there, but it became a lot more than

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Speaker 1: just stolen goods. You found yourself going from that beginning

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Speaker 1: into drug dealing. How did that happen?

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Speaker 3: It was, like I said, the stolen goods. Whatever little

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Speaker 3: crimes people did back then, it wasn't too bad. Maybe

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Speaker 3: people got into selling marijuana heroine. I'm going to leave

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Speaker 3: a lot of details for the book. I'll tell you that.

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Speaker 1: How old were you when this started happening? And listen,

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Speaker 1: I appreciate you if you're writing a book, but I

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Speaker 1: think we need to sort of just touch on the

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Speaker 1: development of your life at that time and how you

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Speaker 1: found yourself. I mean, you're right at the center of it.

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Speaker 1: This was a dangerous place that were full of people

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Speaker 1: who were coming to buy drugs. There was some pretty

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Speaker 1: notorious characters.

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Speaker 3: To the people on the outside, the notorious characters to

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Speaker 3: people like me, their friends and family, And to tell

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Speaker 3: the truth, I met a lot of good people a

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Speaker 3: lot of good people in Sancho.

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Speaker 1: With quite a few people who were murdered over the

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Speaker 1: journey too.

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Speaker 3: Yes, but if you think about it, when all that

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Speaker 3: stuff was happening, it was, what was it, two thousand

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Speaker 3: and two thousand and one. I was already out of

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Speaker 3: Sunshine at that time. See with me, It started when

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Speaker 3: I was twelve years old, So I was a teenager

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Speaker 3: through the nineties, and I just used to hang out

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Speaker 3: at sh at Charlie's. And by the time it got

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Speaker 3: really bad there I was, I was already out.

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Speaker 1: But there was already some pretty bad things happening within

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Speaker 1: Sunshine at that time, and you saw a lot of

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Speaker 1: this there was.

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Speaker 3: My first one was someone got murdered under the train station.

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Speaker 3: There used to be an underpass in the train station there,

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Speaker 3: and the guy got murdered, and the police came into

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Speaker 3: Charlie's and they took us all out, and they lined us.

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Speaker 4: All up and got all our details.

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Speaker 3: And I was very young at time, twelve years old,

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Speaker 3: and I can remember the police putting us up against

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Speaker 3: the wall and then making us sit down there for

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Speaker 3: at least an hour or so, taking all our details,

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Speaker 3: and eventually they let us go. But then I found

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Speaker 3: out it was because of murder. But at the time

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Speaker 3: they had a sitting there, I had no idea what

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Speaker 3: it was for. Then you found out on the news

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Speaker 3: after there was a murder.

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Speaker 1: This began to establish a us and their mentality in

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Speaker 1: people in Sunshine. There was the police, then there was

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Speaker 1: you guys.

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Speaker 3: Before you mentioned the King of Sunshine. Never have I

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Speaker 3: said those words out of my mouth to anybody. I'll

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Speaker 3: tell you how it started. The police used to come

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Speaker 3: past and they used to pick on us a little bit,

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Speaker 3: so they'll get out of the car and they'll push

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Speaker 3: us around. At one time, this cop comes out of

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Speaker 3: the car and he starts pushing me around, and he goes, look,

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Speaker 3: I'm pushing around the King of Sunshine. And if you

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Speaker 3: look in the back seat, there was a young lady there.

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Speaker 3: They were doing a ride along, and you could see

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Speaker 3: the surprise look on their face, thinking that's the King

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Speaker 3: of Sunshine.

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Speaker 4: It's a little boy, you know what I mean. And

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Speaker 4: that's how it started. It happened twice.

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Speaker 3: So the first time he was pushing around, slopping around

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Speaker 3: a little bit. I didn't say not one word, didn't

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Speaker 3: say anything. And the second time he said look, look,

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Speaker 3: I'm pushing around the King of Sunshine. And I said

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Speaker 3: to him, mate, this is no way to treat your majesty.

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Speaker 4: You know what I mean. You're gonna stop it, you know.

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Speaker 3: So that's how it came about because people heard him saying, look,

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Speaker 3: look I'm pushing around the King of Sunshine.

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Speaker 4: And that's how that started.

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Speaker 1: But you were also highly connected. You were doing a

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Speaker 1: lot of business back in those days. You were a

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Speaker 1: connector between people who wanted to buy drugs and the

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Speaker 1: sources that you could get them from.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yes I was. I was.

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Speaker 3: We started moving a lot of marijuana and heroin when

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Speaker 3: I was about thirteen fourteen years old, very young. I

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Speaker 3: didn't even know really what it was, and we pretty

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Speaker 3: much started making a lot of money, a lot real quick.

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Speaker 3: And as a young kid, when you've got a lot

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Speaker 3: of money and you're very young, you know you don't

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Speaker 3: know what to do with it, and there's not much

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Speaker 3: you can do with it but spend it.

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Speaker 4: So you learn how to spend money.

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Speaker 1: Because you must laugh now when you hear people talking about, oh,

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Speaker 1: criminals are getting younger and younger. Now, this has always

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Speaker 1: been the case back in your day. If he was

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Speaker 1: still at school.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Always, It's always been like that, even before that, even

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Speaker 3: the eighties, because I used to hang around Tom's. There

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Speaker 3: was another place around the corner there that was my

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Speaker 3: Auntie's place, and we started hanging around there when we're

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Speaker 3: about seven eight years old.

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Speaker 4: And you'd see the older kids.

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Speaker 3: To us though older kids, but that was they were

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Speaker 3: young still thirteen, fourteen, fifteen years old, but to us

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Speaker 3: they looked old. But they were selling drugs at the

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Speaker 3: time too. And this was the eighties, because what sort

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Speaker 3: of money were talking about.

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Speaker 1: Here was a thirteen year old boy. Suddenly you've got

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Speaker 1: fist full of cash. Yeah, I couldn't really tell you

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Speaker 1: how much money, but it was a lot of money

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Speaker 1: for a thirteen year old. It was.

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Speaker 4: There was a lot of money.

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Speaker 1: Because people I've talked to from your background in Sunshine

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Speaker 1: all those years ago, people like Andrew ven Yum and

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Speaker 1: Johnny Orcello, those sort of people, they talked about money

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Speaker 1: and power being the motivator. Is the aphrodisiacs, Yes, that's true.

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Speaker 1: What role of that playing your life?

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Speaker 3: Well, the money and it does come with power to

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Speaker 3: the point where you can get anything done for a

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Speaker 3: little bit of money, and that's where the power comes in.

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Speaker 1: Were you ever afraid.

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Speaker 3: I probably was too stupid to be afraid. Kids at

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Speaker 3: that age are so dumb they don't know anything.

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Speaker 1: And you were building up a distribution network. You've made

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Speaker 1: a life answers with other individuals from the Vietnamese community

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Speaker 1: out there, that's right. And you were witnessing the struggle

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Speaker 1: for the corners in Sunshine where people were selling drugs.

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Speaker 1: Tell us a bit about that.

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Speaker 3: Well, when it gets to the time when a lot

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Speaker 3: of drug addicts are coming into one area, the other

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Speaker 3: drug dealers can see that a lot of money is

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Speaker 3: coming in, so they want it. And when they come in,

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Speaker 3: you have to do something about it or walk away.

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Speaker 3: So we did something about it. What sort of things

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Speaker 3: would happen, Well, would push them out of the area,

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Speaker 3: to say so, it would beat them up, and you

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Speaker 3: know things like that.

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Speaker 1: There were some pretty big confrontations. And understand that because

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Speaker 1: when you talk about money and power, when you have money,

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Speaker 1: you have the power to get people to do things

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Speaker 1: for you. And so some of these fights would have

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Speaker 1: been set up around bringing in heavier individuals, older guys

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Speaker 1: to come fight for you.

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Speaker 3: Yes, we did have a lot of people see, there

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Speaker 3: was our group in Sunshine and there was a group

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Speaker 3: in Suncho On West, and that's the people you're talking about.

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Speaker 3: And a few times they came and helped us out,

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Speaker 3: you know, with some fights. And when there was a

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Speaker 3: lot of numbers on their side, we called in other

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Speaker 3: people and Sunshine West they had the numbers. There was

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Speaker 3: a lot of people in sun John.

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Speaker 1: West and there were some very heavy guys that were

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Speaker 1: useful in terms of your business. And you've been beaten up,

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Speaker 1: you'd been kicked off your corners.

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Speaker 4: I have, I have.

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Speaker 1: What's that like?

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Speaker 4: It's not a good feeling, but you get used to it.

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Speaker 3: To tell the truth, you know, after you've been beaten

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Speaker 3: up a few times, it's not that bad, you know

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Speaker 3: what I mean. I remember my friend James. I used

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Speaker 3: to tell him, you know, you have to fight. He

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Speaker 3: never fought this guy. Every time there was a fight,

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Speaker 3: he would run away. I said to him, look doesn't

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Speaker 3: matter if you get beaten up, the pain goes away.

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Speaker 4: It's not that bad.

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Speaker 3: I remember one time he got caught chroming in his

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Speaker 3: room and his dad beating him up really bad. And

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Speaker 3: we'll have a nightclub that night. And he came out

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Speaker 3: and his face it was rearranged. He looked like a

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Speaker 3: different person. And he goes to me, George, I know

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Speaker 3: now what you mean. It's not that bad. And I'm

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Speaker 3: looking at him, like, are you you're kidding? That was

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Speaker 3: so bad. I've never had a beating that bad. He

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Speaker 3: goes to me, George, I know now, I'm not scared

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Speaker 3: of getting.

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Speaker 1: A beating, because the reality in Sunshine in those years

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Speaker 1: was that if you got beaten up, if you got

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Speaker 1: kicked off your corner, if you didn't back up, you

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Speaker 1: were weak and you were finished.

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Speaker 3: With one hundred percent must one hundred percent. I would

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Speaker 3: actually challenge anybody to find one person that I have

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Speaker 3: wronged who hasn't wronged me.

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Speaker 1: You're a different person back then, I can tell. I

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Speaker 1: can see your heart's changed completely. And I've seen this

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Speaker 1: before a person.

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Speaker 3: If I said more than ten words a day, I

257
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Speaker 3: spoke too much. I would hardly say a word for

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Speaker 3: about ten about twenty years of my life, I wouldn't

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Speaker 3: say a word.

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Speaker 1: Why was that?

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Speaker 4: I don't know. I couldn't tell you. Was I angry?

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Speaker 4: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: But you were dealing with the trauma and stress of

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Speaker 1: what you were involved in and the uncertainty of with

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Speaker 1: the turmoil that must have been in your life because

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Speaker 1: you're a kid. You're thirteen and fourteen now yeah, yeah, But.

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Speaker 3: To tell you the truth, my dream when I was

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Speaker 3: a kid to die fighting. If I died fighting beside

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Speaker 3: my brothers, that would have been the best day of

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Speaker 3: my life.

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Speaker 4: I'm not even joking. That was my dream.

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Speaker 3: And actually I had a couple of times it could

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Speaker 3: have happened. So one time we ad a party in Albion.

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Speaker 3: At the party were making too much noise, too much

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Speaker 3: of a racket. So the person whose party it was,

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Speaker 3: he said, look, we got to go for a walk

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Speaker 3: because we're making too much noise.

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Speaker 4: They're going to call the cops on us.

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Speaker 3: So we go for a walker, went across the train

280
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Speaker 3: tracks there at Albion and there was another party. Someone

281
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Speaker 3: else was having a party, and there was this lady

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Speaker 3: at the front and one of my friends it goes,

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Speaker 3: can we come to the party, and she goes no, no, no,

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Speaker 3: go away, go away, trust me, go away, And my

285
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Speaker 3: friend kept in saysing no, we're going to want to

286
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Speaker 3: come into the party, and she goes no, don't, don't.

287
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Speaker 3: And about five or six bikers. They looked like bikers,

288
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Speaker 3: you know, came out with machetes, and I wanted to

289
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Speaker 3: run away too, But everybody ran away except my brother Peter.

290
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Speaker 3: The first person who made the trouble. They were chopping

291
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Speaker 3: in with the machetes and my brother Peter jumped on

292
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Speaker 3: him and he started coppying the machetes to the head

293
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Speaker 3: and I wanted to run away, but I saw that happening,

294
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Speaker 3: so I ran towards it.

295
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Speaker 4: And let me tell you the feeling that I had.

296
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Speaker 3: Let's just say, you go home one day and you

297
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Speaker 3: find your house is full of money, full of gold,

298
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Speaker 3: full of diamonds. How would you feel excited, A bit

299
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Speaker 3: of fear. That's how I felt. And if it happened,

300
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Speaker 3: it happened. But it didn't happen. I ended up jumping

301
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Speaker 3: on one of the guys and he started swinging me around.

302
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Speaker 3: And at the time, I was probably about fourteen years old.

303
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Speaker 3: And as he's swinging me around, I'm hitting the other guys.

304
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Speaker 3: So I'm knocking out three or four people at a

305
00:14:19,281 --> 00:14:22,241
Speaker 3: time while he's swinging me around. Believe it or not,

306
00:14:22,361 --> 00:14:23,681
Speaker 3: they called the cops on us.

307
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Speaker 4: These people.

308
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Speaker 3: The police ended up coming to the house where we

309
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Speaker 3: at this party, pushes around a bit, hit a couple

310
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Speaker 3: of people with their torches and ended up arresting me

311
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Speaker 3: because they said I was the one who caused all

312
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Speaker 3: the trouble. And I believe that was the first time

313
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Speaker 3: I spent overnight till my parents came in the morning.

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Speaker 1: Because that was a feature of the guys in Sunshine

315
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Speaker 1: and Sunshine West that they had done very little jail,

316
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Speaker 1: They'd done very little time in police custody. They came

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Speaker 1: to notice in the Gangland War as fully formed criminals,

318
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Speaker 1: and most of the hierarchy and town had ever heard

319
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Speaker 1: of them. So what was happening with the police out

320
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Speaker 1: in Sunshine back in those days? Were they a part

321
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Speaker 1: of the corruption or were they just not good at

322
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Speaker 1: their jobs?

323
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Speaker 3: No, no, I wouldn't say they were part of the corruption.

324
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Speaker 3: There was a few people, I'm sure part of the corruption,

325
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Speaker 3: but not that I know of. But we were underage.

326
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Speaker 3: We're very young. So if you think about it, let's

327
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Speaker 3: just say one of us gets caught shoplifting. You know

328
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Speaker 3: what you got back then a five year good behavior bond,

329
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Speaker 3: and a five year good behavior bond means nothing. You

330
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Speaker 3: know what you get the next time the next day

331
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Speaker 3: you get caught shoplifted again. The next day it's another

332
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Speaker 3: five year good behavior bond. The one before didn't matter.

333
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Speaker 3: And also concurrently, so exactly so what was the first

334
00:15:42,521 --> 00:15:46,401
Speaker 3: one for? And then you found out, well, nothing's happening.

335
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Speaker 3: You can get away with anything underage. I shouldn't be

336
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Speaker 3: saying that's true.

337
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Speaker 1: It's happening again today. I'm we're seeing young criminals here

338
00:15:54,321 --> 00:15:57,041
Speaker 1: in the streets of Melbourne who are getting bail on bail,

339
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Speaker 1: on bail, they're going to youth Justice, they're not going

340
00:16:00,281 --> 00:16:02,321
Speaker 1: to jail. And they're thinking, well, this is a lark,

341
00:16:02,961 --> 00:16:05,641
Speaker 1: but this is not new you're saying it was back then.

342
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Speaker 4: It was.

343
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Speaker 1: It was because by the time people like Andrew Venyuman

344
00:16:09,881 --> 00:16:15,241
Speaker 1: got uptown, he'd already been involved in violence, assaults, murders

345
00:16:15,281 --> 00:16:18,241
Speaker 1: even I mean, he'd been involved, for instance, in the

346
00:16:18,321 --> 00:16:22,721
Speaker 1: murder of Dino Dibrah in two thousand, he'd probably been

347
00:16:22,721 --> 00:16:25,441
Speaker 1: involved in the murder of Paul Calipalitis in two thousand

348
00:16:25,481 --> 00:16:28,721
Speaker 1: and two, and nothing had happened. And so when he

349
00:16:28,761 --> 00:16:32,281
Speaker 1: comes uptown with carl Williams, he was a different breed

350
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Speaker 1: and the guys in Carlton could not believe how willing,

351
00:16:37,521 --> 00:16:40,761
Speaker 1: how much dash the guys in Sunshine had, there were

352
00:16:40,881 --> 00:16:42,721
Speaker 1: complete revelation. Can you understand that?

353
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Speaker 3: I understand that, bully. Why, I know exactly the type.

354
00:16:46,921 --> 00:16:50,641
Speaker 3: If sunhohe West came through your area and maybe they

355
00:16:50,721 --> 00:16:54,521
Speaker 3: hang out their little bit no chroming or something, you

356
00:16:54,561 --> 00:16:56,841
Speaker 3: could do nothing or you'll be able to do his

357
00:16:56,921 --> 00:16:59,681
Speaker 3: smile and let them do whatever they want to do.

358
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Speaker 3: Sunhohn West, you didn't mess with back then.

359
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Speaker 4: It was that simple.

360
00:17:05,281 --> 00:17:06,120
Speaker 1: And they all died.

361
00:17:07,121 --> 00:17:10,241
Speaker 3: No, there's a lot of them still around still. Yeah,

362
00:17:10,441 --> 00:17:13,961
Speaker 3: what's happened to them? Productive members of society, believe it

363
00:17:14,041 --> 00:17:16,720
Speaker 3: or not. A lot of the people, Yeah, smart people,

364
00:17:16,801 --> 00:17:20,481
Speaker 3: smart guys. They weren't stupid even back then. They were

365
00:17:20,561 --> 00:17:22,321
Speaker 3: just street kids.

366
00:17:22,321 --> 00:17:24,801
Speaker 1: I suppose, well, yeah, because I mean you were a

367
00:17:24,801 --> 00:17:28,160
Speaker 1: good student, yeah, but you couldn't see any future in

368
00:17:28,241 --> 00:17:30,721
Speaker 1: staying in school. You were making too much money down

369
00:17:30,721 --> 00:17:34,000
Speaker 1: at Charlie's and on your corners selling drugs. So, and

370
00:17:34,041 --> 00:17:36,600
Speaker 1: you had ambitions you wanted to be You're interested in

371
00:17:36,721 --> 00:17:38,880
Speaker 1: ancient Greek history, and you wanted to write and a lot

372
00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:41,240
Speaker 1: sort of stuff. But you saw your future on the

373
00:17:41,281 --> 00:17:42,121
Speaker 1: streets at that time.

374
00:17:42,201 --> 00:17:45,641
Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually wanted to be a soldier back when

375
00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,360
Speaker 3: I was a teenager, you know, Navy seal something like that.

376
00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,961
Speaker 3: But yeah, that wasn't going to happen. I loved football,

377
00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,120
Speaker 3: AFL football when I was a young kid, that was

378
00:17:55,160 --> 00:18:00,281
Speaker 3: my thing. So through my young probably to say from

379
00:18:00,321 --> 00:18:03,440
Speaker 3: six years old to about twelve years old, AFL was

380
00:18:03,481 --> 00:18:04,080
Speaker 3: everything to me.

381
00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:06,680
Speaker 4: Oh I was sports. It doesn't matter what sport it was.

382
00:18:06,721 --> 00:18:09,120
Speaker 3: I had to play sports that day, you know what

383
00:18:09,201 --> 00:18:12,521
Speaker 3: I mean my primary school times and if you talk

384
00:18:12,561 --> 00:18:14,640
Speaker 3: to anyone through my primary school, it doesn't matter what

385
00:18:14,681 --> 00:18:15,321
Speaker 3: sport it was.

386
00:18:15,801 --> 00:18:18,120
Speaker 4: I was good at it, every sport and I had

387
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:19,280
Speaker 4: to play sport. You know.

388
00:18:20,481 --> 00:18:24,080
Speaker 3: We used to have like an Olympic day that was

389
00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:26,680
Speaker 3: the best day of the year for me. We used

390
00:18:26,721 --> 00:18:30,280
Speaker 3: to go to it was called Albefeldi Park and it

391
00:18:30,321 --> 00:18:33,321
Speaker 3: was like an Olympics high jump, long jump, hundred meters,

392
00:18:33,521 --> 00:18:37,120
Speaker 3: really everything you can think of. And that to me

393
00:18:37,321 --> 00:18:40,801
Speaker 3: was like if you were junkie and you had as

394
00:18:41,321 --> 00:18:43,001
Speaker 3: unlimited drugs.

395
00:18:43,561 --> 00:18:44,921
Speaker 4: That's how it felt.

396
00:18:45,441 --> 00:18:47,080
Speaker 3: So that's how it felt to me, you know what

397
00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,440
Speaker 3: I mean, A natural high, natural high for sports. I

398
00:18:50,561 --> 00:18:54,401
Speaker 3: was crazy about sports. But I suppose you get over it.

399
00:18:54,921 --> 00:18:57,600
Speaker 1: Well, other things came up and this opportunity and then

400
00:18:57,640 --> 00:18:59,761
Speaker 1: you could see, I mean, you're also quite a commercially

401
00:18:59,761 --> 00:19:03,201
Speaker 1: oriented young man, and you could see at a ridiculously

402
00:19:03,281 --> 00:19:06,440
Speaker 1: young age that you could apply the demand. And obviously

403
00:19:06,441 --> 00:19:09,240
Speaker 1: heroin was booming in Melbourne across Australia ACTA at that

404
00:19:09,281 --> 00:19:12,360
Speaker 1: time as well. You could see an opportunity that took

405
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:17,081
Speaker 1: you right away from that righteous path of sports and study.

406
00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,521
Speaker 1: Wanted to be a soldier, and boy, what a dark

407
00:19:20,561 --> 00:19:21,360
Speaker 1: place you ended up.

408
00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,921
Speaker 3: Yeah, but even during those times, I knew this isn't

409
00:19:24,921 --> 00:19:27,321
Speaker 3: the path. I knew I got to get out. I

410
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,080
Speaker 3: knew I had to think of something, I had to

411
00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:33,120
Speaker 3: do something else. I knew this, But until I was

412
00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:36,840
Speaker 3: about eighteen nineteen, I was still involved.

413
00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,801
Speaker 1: It is difficult to get out. And I know from

414
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,440
Speaker 1: the Sunshine Crew that I knew that where there was

415
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:48,720
Speaker 1: a little bit of doubt about you, there was no doubt.

416
00:19:49,120 --> 00:19:52,241
Speaker 1: And one thing they really looked down upon was people

417
00:19:52,281 --> 00:19:55,400
Speaker 1: who were snitches on pain of death, and that's really

418
00:19:55,441 --> 00:19:59,240
Speaker 1: that caused several of the murders. So how difficult was

419
00:19:59,241 --> 00:20:02,801
Speaker 1: it to get out knowing that your associates would be saying, hey,

420
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:04,921
Speaker 1: George's out but is he going to snitch on us now?

421
00:20:05,801 --> 00:20:08,321
Speaker 3: No, they knew me, They knew me, they knew the

422
00:20:08,360 --> 00:20:10,721
Speaker 3: type of person I was, and they knew they would

423
00:20:10,761 --> 00:20:13,600
Speaker 3: not happen. One time we had a fight at a

424
00:20:13,761 --> 00:20:18,321
Speaker 3: footscrape McDonald's and the police ended up coming during the

425
00:20:18,321 --> 00:20:22,120
Speaker 3: fight and they arrested me and about to put me

426
00:20:22,120 --> 00:20:24,680
Speaker 3: in the back of the police divvy van and I

427
00:20:24,721 --> 00:20:29,521
Speaker 3: started running, and as I was running, a few of

428
00:20:29,521 --> 00:20:32,681
Speaker 3: the Sunshine boys stole the things in the police car.

429
00:20:33,281 --> 00:20:35,640
Speaker 3: Believe it or not, I ran so they could they still.

430
00:20:36,761 --> 00:20:39,321
Speaker 3: I believe it was a mobile phone and a few

431
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:43,680
Speaker 3: other things. But the sergeant then at the time, he

432
00:20:43,761 --> 00:20:46,400
Speaker 3: wanted his mobile phone back, so he used to come

433
00:20:46,441 --> 00:20:49,241
Speaker 3: to my house, take me to the police station and

434
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,681
Speaker 3: slap me around a bit until I gave him the name.

435
00:20:52,120 --> 00:20:55,840
Speaker 3: And I wouldn't do it. So for three months, whenever

436
00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:57,921
Speaker 3: they found me, they took me to the police station,

437
00:20:58,001 --> 00:21:01,600
Speaker 3: slapped me around a bit, and let me go. The

438
00:21:01,721 --> 00:21:03,920
Speaker 3: last time it happened, I said, guys, this is going

439
00:21:04,001 --> 00:21:06,840
Speaker 3: to happen forever. I don't know who took the mobile phone.

440
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:08,801
Speaker 3: Of course I knew who took it, but I said

441
00:21:08,801 --> 00:21:10,321
Speaker 3: to him, I don't know who took it. You're not

442
00:21:10,321 --> 00:21:11,880
Speaker 3: going to get a name from me. It's that simple,

443
00:21:12,041 --> 00:21:12,561
Speaker 3: you know what I mean?

444
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,600
Speaker 1: Because what would have happened to you had you given

445
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:15,041
Speaker 1: that name.

446
00:21:15,201 --> 00:21:19,001
Speaker 3: Well, I couldn't tell you. I couldn't tell you the person.

447
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,721
Speaker 3: Nothing good, nothing good, of course. But the person who

448
00:21:21,761 --> 00:21:24,200
Speaker 3: actually took it wasn't even a friend of mine. He

449
00:21:24,441 --> 00:21:27,720
Speaker 3: was my good friend's cousin, you know. But I knew that,

450
00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:29,921
Speaker 3: and I could have easily just given the name. Easy,

451
00:21:29,961 --> 00:21:32,001
Speaker 3: they will stop harassing me. And in this time I

452
00:21:32,001 --> 00:21:35,400
Speaker 3: couldn't do anything, and I stayed over friend's houses. But

453
00:21:35,561 --> 00:21:37,281
Speaker 3: in this three months they only got me about five

454
00:21:37,321 --> 00:21:42,240
Speaker 3: six times because I stayed at friend's houses. But I

455
00:21:42,281 --> 00:21:45,121
Speaker 3: could have easily just given the name. How many people

456
00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:48,641
Speaker 3: would have done it, you know what I mean? Easy.

457
00:21:48,801 --> 00:21:50,840
Speaker 3: I didn't even care for the guy, you know what

458
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:51,201
Speaker 3: I mean.

459
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,200
Speaker 1: But also the reality was that police knew that you

460
00:21:55,281 --> 00:21:58,600
Speaker 1: were a tall poppy, a young tall poppy. But they

461
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,761
Speaker 1: could also let people know that you were a snitch, yes,

462
00:22:02,001 --> 00:22:02,720
Speaker 1: and destroying you.

463
00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:04,041
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what they do.

464
00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:08,440
Speaker 3: The times when you're in the police station and they

465
00:22:08,561 --> 00:22:11,961
Speaker 3: got you for some crime, the person in the other room,

466
00:22:12,041 --> 00:22:15,200
Speaker 3: they'll tell them that person in the other room is talking.

467
00:22:15,281 --> 00:22:16,200
Speaker 4: He's told us everything.

468
00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:18,481
Speaker 3: You might as well just tell us he's told us,

469
00:22:19,481 --> 00:22:21,521
Speaker 3: and a lot of people fall for it, you know

470
00:22:21,521 --> 00:22:23,440
Speaker 3: what I mean. Plus, when you're young, you don't know

471
00:22:23,481 --> 00:22:26,441
Speaker 3: any better, but I knew better, you know what I mean.

472
00:22:26,441 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 3: And when you don't say anything, you walk. It's that simple.

473
00:22:29,721 --> 00:22:32,160
Speaker 3: When a police officer says to you, make it easy

474
00:22:32,201 --> 00:22:35,840
Speaker 3: on yourself, he means make it easy on himself, you

475
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,601
Speaker 3: know what I mean. That's what he means. If they're

476
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:40,321
Speaker 3: there talking to you and they're trying to get something,

477
00:22:40,321 --> 00:22:42,521
Speaker 3: they've got nothing. So if you keep your mouth shut,

478
00:22:43,001 --> 00:22:44,321
Speaker 3: you'll walk. It's that simple.

479
00:22:45,561 --> 00:22:47,681
Speaker 1: Yes, you're right, George. There's not much they can do

480
00:22:48,001 --> 00:22:50,920
Speaker 1: unless people are giving evidence against you. And you were

481
00:22:51,001 --> 00:22:53,361
Speaker 1: quite a big operation by this time, but you were

482
00:22:53,360 --> 00:22:57,001
Speaker 1: flying below the radar. All of a sudden that changes

483
00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,680
Speaker 1: because some of your workers decide to give you up.

484
00:23:00,721 --> 00:23:05,041
Speaker 3: What happened, Yeah, so a few workers bus, they've got raiders,

485
00:23:05,441 --> 00:23:08,321
Speaker 3: five of them, and they also got a few clients

486
00:23:08,321 --> 00:23:10,961
Speaker 3: at the same time, three, so it was eight people altogether,

487
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:16,081
Speaker 3: and seven of those eight gave witness statements and they

488
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:17,161
Speaker 3: picked me up on the back.

489
00:23:16,961 --> 00:23:18,120
Speaker 1: Of that and what did they say?

490
00:23:18,801 --> 00:23:21,200
Speaker 3: We know everything, we know what you're running, we know

491
00:23:21,241 --> 00:23:22,761
Speaker 3: what you're doing, we know it all.

492
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,721
Speaker 1: And you've been doing this now for three or four

493
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:30,001
Speaker 1: years at this point, at that point, about five years,

494
00:23:30,360 --> 00:23:32,360
Speaker 1: five years. You were sixteen at.

495
00:23:32,241 --> 00:23:34,281
Speaker 4: This time, yeah, sixteen, about seventeen.

496
00:23:34,321 --> 00:23:36,440
Speaker 1: Ye staggering, isn't it that you were that young and

497
00:23:36,481 --> 00:23:39,041
Speaker 1: you've been doing it for five years and the police

498
00:23:39,521 --> 00:23:42,521
Speaker 1: hadn't managed to nail you. But so what did your

499
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,201
Speaker 1: so called faithful workers say about you?

500
00:23:45,281 --> 00:23:45,481
Speaker 4: Yeah?

501
00:23:45,521 --> 00:23:47,321
Speaker 3: The faithful workers are you know a lot of them.

502
00:23:47,521 --> 00:23:50,880
Speaker 3: They were all talked tough before this happened. If you

503
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,121
Speaker 3: talk to them, oh, don't worry about the belize, don't

504
00:23:53,681 --> 00:23:57,561
Speaker 3: the police. And the one who never talks, he's quiet,

505
00:23:57,681 --> 00:23:59,761
Speaker 3: he doesn't act tough, nothing. He's the one that didn't

506
00:23:59,761 --> 00:24:01,081
Speaker 3: say anything. It's amazing.

507
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:01,640
Speaker 4: Yeah.

508
00:24:01,761 --> 00:24:05,761
Speaker 3: The four that talked tough all talked, but the one

509
00:24:05,801 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 3: who never talks didn't talk at that point.

510
00:24:09,321 --> 00:24:10,721
Speaker 1: And so they come to you. Where were you when

511
00:24:10,721 --> 00:24:11,801
Speaker 1: they when the police descended?

512
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,680
Speaker 4: Believe I was in Sunshine.

513
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,001
Speaker 1: Just another business day the day for me.

514
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 4: Yeah.

515
00:24:17,801 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 3: They came and arrested me from there and took me

516
00:24:20,321 --> 00:24:22,801
Speaker 3: to Sunshine Police, which was the old police station at

517
00:24:22,801 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 3: that time, and they took turns slipping around a bit,

518
00:24:27,561 --> 00:24:29,680
Speaker 3: beating me up a bit to get something out of me.

519
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:31,521
Speaker 3: And they did it one at a time, so only

520
00:24:31,521 --> 00:24:35,360
Speaker 3: one police officer was in the room. And when my

521
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,721
Speaker 3: barrister came, when I was talking to him, he said,

522
00:24:38,801 --> 00:24:40,281
Speaker 3: I think I had a mark, but it wasn't from

523
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,961
Speaker 3: police hitting me or anything. And he said, did they

524
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 3: did the police beat you up? And I said yeah,

525
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 3: like this was normal because that happened all the time.

526
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 3: It's no big deal. If you're in the boxing ring,

527
00:24:49,801 --> 00:24:52,201
Speaker 3: you get hit a few times, you can't complain And

528
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,360
Speaker 3: I said yeah. He goes, oh, which ones? And the

529
00:24:55,481 --> 00:24:57,120
Speaker 3: names were on the paper in front of him, and

530
00:24:57,120 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 3: I tapped the paper, said this, and he ended up

531
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:05,041
Speaker 3: rolling with that and ended up taking those officers to court.

532
00:25:05,681 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 1: And what happened about that without me telling him to

533
00:25:07,801 --> 00:25:08,161
Speaker 1: do that.

534
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,761
Speaker 3: So the day we went to court and I saw

535
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,321
Speaker 3: those three there, I said, what are they doing here?

536
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,321
Speaker 3: He said, you're going to testify against them? I said

537
00:25:18,721 --> 00:25:21,121
Speaker 3: I'm not doing that. He said, yeah, but they beat

538
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,400
Speaker 3: you up. We're going to try and get your charges

539
00:25:23,481 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 3: dropped and all this stuff. I said, yeah, I'm not

540
00:25:27,681 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 3: going to testify against them, and I left it at that,

541
00:25:30,521 --> 00:25:31,801
Speaker 3: and they left.

542
00:25:32,001 --> 00:25:34,361
Speaker 4: They heard obviously I wasn't going to go forward with it.

543
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:39,400
Speaker 3: And we got a charge of community service two hundred

544
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:40,561
Speaker 3: and fifty hours and we're happy with it.

545
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:41,601
Speaker 1: And what were you charged with?

546
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,721
Speaker 4: Heroin trafficking? Organized crime?

547
00:25:44,761 --> 00:25:48,481
Speaker 3: It was like something about running an organized crime syndicate

548
00:25:48,521 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 3: and things like that, just crazy charges, but they ended

549
00:25:52,921 --> 00:25:55,201
Speaker 3: up it was like ten charges or more. But then

550
00:25:55,241 --> 00:25:57,521
Speaker 3: they just went down to a few of them which

551
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,880
Speaker 3: was just drug trafficking and things like that.

552
00:25:59,921 --> 00:26:02,561
Speaker 1: So it's gone from like pretty serious down to fairly mind.

553
00:26:02,441 --> 00:26:04,681
Speaker 3: I will tell me twenty years. You're going to get

554
00:26:04,681 --> 00:26:07,561
Speaker 3: twenty they're telling me. I didn't believe that straight up.

555
00:26:07,761 --> 00:26:10,041
Speaker 3: First of all, I'm sixteen, seventeen years old. I knew

556
00:26:10,041 --> 00:26:12,721
Speaker 3: that wasn't gonna happen. I ended up just getting two

557
00:26:12,801 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty hours of community serving, which was good

558
00:26:15,481 --> 00:26:17,561
Speaker 3: for me actually at the time. Come work into the work.

559
00:26:18,120 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 1: What did you have to do?

560
00:26:20,241 --> 00:26:21,281
Speaker 4: At science works?

561
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,721
Speaker 3: There was this guy who collects the dead bodies who

562
00:26:24,321 --> 00:26:27,001
Speaker 3: jumped from the West Gate Bridge and he collects them

563
00:26:27,481 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 3: and the people.

564
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,321
Speaker 1: That had jumped off the bridge and committed suicide. Okay.

565
00:26:31,761 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 3: He says that people around that area they get like

566
00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:36,721
Speaker 3: eight bodies a week. And I couldn't believe it because

567
00:26:36,721 --> 00:26:37,761
Speaker 3: you don't hear about on the news.

568
00:26:37,801 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 4: Nothing.

569
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,321
Speaker 3: And he opened up the drainage hatch and he said,

570
00:26:41,321 --> 00:26:43,561
Speaker 3: this is where we're going to get the bodies from.

571
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 3: I've never taken up, but I saw them do it

572
00:26:45,961 --> 00:26:49,481
Speaker 3: one time. But removing bodies from where was this Science Works?

573
00:26:49,921 --> 00:26:52,120
Speaker 3: This is just near the West Gate Bridge. There they

574
00:26:52,120 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 3: were storing the bodies that people had committed suicide. No, no,

575
00:26:54,801 --> 00:26:58,281
Speaker 3: they washed up in their drainage system. And there was

576
00:26:58,281 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 3: this big hatch at the back of Science Works and

577
00:27:01,241 --> 00:27:03,801
Speaker 3: you go down a ladder. It's like a sewage system,

578
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,481
Speaker 3: and that's sometimes the bodies get caught up there.

579
00:27:06,761 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 1: And what was your job in relation to that?

580
00:27:08,481 --> 00:27:09,921
Speaker 4: I was supposed to help him pull them out?

581
00:27:10,521 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: Goodness me.

582
00:27:11,241 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, but we're also also doing landscaping around the front

583
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:16,961
Speaker 3: of the place and back of the place. And he said,

584
00:27:17,001 --> 00:27:18,400
Speaker 3: if there's a dead body, you've got to come and

585
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,481
Speaker 3: help me. It's a bit of gardening, bit of body retrieval. Yeah,

586
00:27:21,761 --> 00:27:25,281
Speaker 3: two and fifty hours. I mean it's remarkable because I

587
00:27:25,281 --> 00:27:28,281
Speaker 3: mean most ordinary people would say, ah, you should have

588
00:27:28,321 --> 00:27:31,041
Speaker 3: given evidence against the police. But I know in Sunshine

589
00:27:31,041 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 3: at that time, you didn't give evidence against anybody, be

590
00:27:34,281 --> 00:27:36,360
Speaker 3: it your friends or the police, because you always had

591
00:27:36,360 --> 00:27:37,681
Speaker 3: to go back to Sunshine.

592
00:27:37,281 --> 00:27:39,561
Speaker 4: Exactly, and you have to live with yourself. It's that simple.

593
00:27:39,681 --> 00:27:42,041
Speaker 3: But giving evidence against the police wouldn't bother me that much.

594
00:27:42,321 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 3: I just couldn't do it. I just didn't feel it

595
00:27:43,961 --> 00:27:45,880
Speaker 3: was right. They beat me up a bit so wide,

596
00:27:46,201 --> 00:27:47,761
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, that's how it's meant to be.

597
00:27:48,360 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 3: But what I hated the worst about this cop that

598
00:27:51,241 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 3: I took the court. Three months later, he arrested a

599
00:27:54,521 --> 00:27:57,081
Speaker 3: friend of mine right in front of me, and as

600
00:27:57,120 --> 00:27:59,160
Speaker 3: he's got him in handcuffs taking him to the car,

601
00:27:59,441 --> 00:28:01,921
Speaker 3: he says, he yells out to me, thanks for your help, George.

602
00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:04,321
Speaker 3: Are you just trying to get me killed?

603
00:28:04,761 --> 00:28:06,921
Speaker 1: Yeah? That was a common tactic, wasn't it, to say

604
00:28:06,921 --> 00:28:07,321
Speaker 1: that you've been.

605
00:28:07,281 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 3: Helped, because obviously something's gone wrong with his career, he

606
00:28:10,521 --> 00:28:13,241
Speaker 3: can't get promoted, or something's happened because there was a

607
00:28:13,321 --> 00:28:16,801
Speaker 3: someone's complaint against him, So he's held a grudge, this guy.

608
00:28:17,681 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 1: And in those years, you had a lot to lose

609
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,400
Speaker 1: you had built up this empire. You work all the

610
00:28:22,441 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: King of Sunshine, however reluctantly you were His Majesty, if

611
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,761
Speaker 1: you like. So to see that wrenched away from you

612
00:28:29,561 --> 00:28:34,561
Speaker 1: and your reputation destroyed was a powerful incentive to stay staunch.

613
00:28:35,761 --> 00:28:38,041
Speaker 3: Yes, but I knew I had to get out one day,

614
00:28:38,041 --> 00:28:39,841
Speaker 3: sooner or later. I knew I had to get out.

615
00:28:39,841 --> 00:28:41,401
Speaker 3: So I knew it was going to end. I just

616
00:28:41,401 --> 00:28:42,961
Speaker 3: didn't know how it was going to end.

617
00:28:44,121 --> 00:28:46,841
Speaker 1: Well. For a lot of those guys out there, or

618
00:28:46,881 --> 00:28:49,481
Speaker 1: a number of them, it ended up in the mortuary.

619
00:28:49,641 --> 00:28:49,921
Speaker 4: It did.

620
00:28:50,201 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 1: It did, And you had that experience when I went

621
00:28:52,521 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: out there the first time, I saw how many houses

622
00:28:55,601 --> 00:28:59,601
Speaker 1: in that area had roller shutters. They're like little fortresses.

623
00:29:00,121 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: People feared retribution for various things, and I number one

624
00:29:04,641 --> 00:29:07,641
Speaker 1: crook there told me that you could fear the police,

625
00:29:08,121 --> 00:29:10,001
Speaker 1: but you had more to fear from your mates.

626
00:29:10,721 --> 00:29:12,521
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, I suppose.

627
00:29:14,321 --> 00:29:16,361
Speaker 1: You had a couple of instances where people tried to

628
00:29:16,401 --> 00:29:17,121
Speaker 1: take your life.

629
00:29:17,681 --> 00:29:21,121
Speaker 3: Yes, robberies. There was a lot of standover men at

630
00:29:21,121 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 3: those times. We were little kids were easy targets, you

631
00:29:23,961 --> 00:29:25,841
Speaker 3: know what I mean. Your pockets are full of money,

632
00:29:26,721 --> 00:29:31,001
Speaker 3: easy targets, So standover men in the nineties was a

633
00:29:31,041 --> 00:29:34,561
Speaker 3: normal thing and most of the things would do that

634
00:29:34,921 --> 00:29:37,921
Speaker 3: people would look at that it's very bad. Was beating

635
00:29:38,001 --> 00:29:41,081
Speaker 3: up a standover men, you know what I mean? And

636
00:29:41,361 --> 00:29:43,481
Speaker 3: people would say, sometimes we'll go a bit too far.

637
00:29:44,441 --> 00:29:47,001
Speaker 3: And that's why people thought you were so bad, because

638
00:29:47,041 --> 00:29:50,001
Speaker 3: you're beating up all these people. But they actually tried

639
00:29:50,041 --> 00:29:53,561
Speaker 3: to rob you. So to me, the rules are gone

640
00:29:53,961 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 3: to me, I can do whatever I want after that.

641
00:29:55,521 --> 00:29:57,801
Speaker 3: You tried to rob me. You put a blood field

642
00:29:57,801 --> 00:29:59,881
Speaker 3: to ringe to my eye, you put a knife to

643
00:29:59,921 --> 00:30:01,401
Speaker 3: my throat, you put a gun to my head.

644
00:30:01,801 --> 00:30:04,921
Speaker 4: There's no rules for me after that. You're lucky if

645
00:30:04,961 --> 00:30:06,401
Speaker 4: I let you live. To tell you the truth. That's

646
00:30:06,441 --> 00:30:08,481
Speaker 4: how angry I get. I used to get back then

647
00:30:09,561 --> 00:30:09,881
Speaker 4: I can.

648
00:30:09,801 --> 00:30:12,281
Speaker 1: See how painful this is. The memories are difficult because

649
00:30:12,281 --> 00:30:15,481
Speaker 1: it was Yeah, it does come back, and I'm sure

650
00:30:15,681 --> 00:30:17,561
Speaker 1: one moment does come back. When you were at home

651
00:30:17,601 --> 00:30:20,481
Speaker 1: there and there's a drive by on your house.

652
00:30:20,361 --> 00:30:23,601
Speaker 4: That's right. Yeah, what happened to your story? Yeah?

653
00:30:23,601 --> 00:30:23,921
Speaker 1: Funny.

654
00:30:24,841 --> 00:30:30,041
Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually heard something in the front yard and

655
00:30:30,321 --> 00:30:33,361
Speaker 3: I went to look out the window, and I thought

656
00:30:33,401 --> 00:30:34,841
Speaker 3: it was my brother pushing me down.

657
00:30:35,881 --> 00:30:37,481
Speaker 4: But it wasn't. No one was there.

658
00:30:38,601 --> 00:30:42,161
Speaker 3: My brother was laying down sleeping, and I was about

659
00:30:42,161 --> 00:30:46,641
Speaker 3: to look exactly where that bullet was, exactly right between

660
00:30:46,681 --> 00:30:51,121
Speaker 3: the eyes, but something pushed me down. Believe it or not,

661
00:30:51,401 --> 00:30:52,041
Speaker 3: it's so weird.

662
00:30:53,601 --> 00:30:55,561
Speaker 1: So the shot passed through the front of your house

663
00:30:56,121 --> 00:30:58,641
Speaker 1: and over your head where you'd just been.

664
00:30:58,801 --> 00:31:01,281
Speaker 3: Just been, and I was about to look. I was

665
00:31:01,321 --> 00:31:03,641
Speaker 3: about to move the curtain and look in that exact

666
00:31:03,721 --> 00:31:07,521
Speaker 3: spot that bullet went, but I felt a hand on

667
00:31:07,561 --> 00:31:11,881
Speaker 3: my back push me. I really don't care people believe

668
00:31:11,921 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 3: that or not, but that's that's what I felt like,

669
00:31:13,841 --> 00:31:14,401
Speaker 3: you know what I mean?

670
00:31:14,521 --> 00:31:19,081
Speaker 1: You had a guardian angel. Maybe maybe that could also

671
00:31:19,121 --> 00:31:21,001
Speaker 1: be interpreted as a sign that it was time to

672
00:31:21,041 --> 00:31:22,321
Speaker 1: get out. Did you get out?

673
00:31:23,041 --> 00:31:25,721
Speaker 4: Yes? I did. I did get out. Was not at

674
00:31:25,721 --> 00:31:26,841
Speaker 4: that time?

675
00:31:26,841 --> 00:31:27,761
Speaker 1: It took a bit longer.

676
00:31:28,041 --> 00:31:30,841
Speaker 3: Yeah, well you can't do that and get away with it. Yeah,

677
00:31:30,841 --> 00:31:32,441
Speaker 3: something has to happen, you know what I mean.

678
00:31:32,841 --> 00:31:33,561
Speaker 1: So what happened?

679
00:31:34,121 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 3: Well, I didn't murder it. I've never murdered anybody, you

680
00:31:37,521 --> 00:31:39,601
Speaker 3: know what I mean. Even if you have, no one's

681
00:31:39,641 --> 00:31:43,521
Speaker 3: going to say, yeah you have. But I used to

682
00:31:43,521 --> 00:31:46,841
Speaker 3: get pretty angry if somebody because I'll tell you this,

683
00:31:47,241 --> 00:31:51,161
Speaker 3: I will never wrong you. Never will I ever wrong anybody.

684
00:31:51,681 --> 00:31:55,001
Speaker 3: But if you wrong me, then I'm going to do something.

685
00:31:56,001 --> 00:31:58,281
Speaker 3: I looked at it like this, If you just say

686
00:31:58,361 --> 00:32:01,161
Speaker 3: chop my finger off, I will chop your hands off

687
00:32:01,161 --> 00:32:04,161
Speaker 3: and your feet off. And to me, that was fair enough,

688
00:32:05,401 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 3: and I would think with most people would be fair

689
00:32:07,321 --> 00:32:10,681
Speaker 3: enough because I will never wrong you leave me alone,

690
00:32:11,521 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 3: you know it, won't even know I exist?

691
00:32:13,521 --> 00:32:14,121
Speaker 4: Is that simple?

692
00:32:15,081 --> 00:32:18,321
Speaker 1: Because that was the law of the streets in Sunshine.

693
00:32:18,441 --> 00:32:21,321
Speaker 1: I heard stories, for instance, about if there were debtsode

694
00:32:21,481 --> 00:32:24,161
Speaker 1: or things had been done to people's family and so forth,

695
00:32:24,201 --> 00:32:26,001
Speaker 1: and you could find people who could do these things

696
00:32:26,081 --> 00:32:28,161
Speaker 1: for you. For the amount of money that you would pay,

697
00:32:28,521 --> 00:32:30,801
Speaker 1: you could get these jobs done. And Andrew Venuman was

698
00:32:31,641 --> 00:32:36,041
Speaker 1: very experienced at this, shooting people in the buttocks, bashing people,

699
00:32:36,441 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: and more or less acting like a little local police

700
00:32:38,761 --> 00:32:39,521
Speaker 1: force if you like.

701
00:32:39,761 --> 00:32:43,041
Speaker 3: Yes, I suppose I've never actually hired him to do

702
00:32:43,161 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 3: a job like that, but I'm sure people have.

703
00:32:45,921 --> 00:32:49,081
Speaker 1: Yeah. But like I said, he and people like Debrah

704
00:32:49,481 --> 00:32:52,921
Speaker 1: were regarded as just next level. They had dashed that

705
00:32:52,961 --> 00:32:55,361
Speaker 1: people did not see, and when they came down, when

706
00:32:55,401 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: they began to knock off the cart and crew. The

707
00:32:58,241 --> 00:33:02,121
Speaker 1: cart and Crew were rich crooks, they were comfortable, they

708
00:33:02,161 --> 00:33:05,961
Speaker 1: were knitted into the fabric of Melbourne. But these renegades,

709
00:33:06,041 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 1: these guys from the streets of Sunshine, who did not

710
00:33:08,361 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: give a shit and they were prepared to do what

711
00:33:10,841 --> 00:33:15,361
Speaker 1: others were. And that's why Carl Williams made his relationship

712
00:33:15,361 --> 00:33:18,481
Speaker 1: with Dino Dibborh and then with their new venumin because

713
00:33:19,201 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 1: that experience you had anothers on the streets of Sunshine

714
00:33:23,161 --> 00:33:24,041
Speaker 1: was next level.

715
00:33:25,321 --> 00:33:25,721
Speaker 4: They were.

716
00:33:25,801 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 3: They were, But to tell the truth, there was a

717
00:33:28,241 --> 00:33:29,881
Speaker 3: lot of people like them, but you just don't hear

718
00:33:29,921 --> 00:33:33,801
Speaker 3: about them. The actual worst people, the biggest criminals. You'll

719
00:33:33,801 --> 00:33:34,601
Speaker 3: never hear about him.

720
00:33:35,521 --> 00:33:35,761
Speaker 4: Never.

721
00:33:35,921 --> 00:33:38,681
Speaker 3: No one will ever hear about him. It's that simple.

722
00:33:40,201 --> 00:33:42,081
Speaker 3: And did you hear that Carl Williams just to hang

723
00:33:42,121 --> 00:33:44,841
Speaker 3: out in Sunshine? Remember that link I sent you? Yes,

724
00:33:45,001 --> 00:33:48,561
Speaker 3: Carl Williams. See people believe anything they hear. Yeah, it's amazing.

725
00:33:49,441 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 3: So apparently he grew up in Sunshine, hang out at

726
00:33:52,241 --> 00:33:54,801
Speaker 3: Charlie's through the nineties and I've never met the man.

727
00:33:55,401 --> 00:33:55,601
Speaker 1: No.

728
00:33:55,801 --> 00:33:58,481
Speaker 3: I was there every day through the nineties and I've

729
00:33:58,481 --> 00:34:02,161
Speaker 3: never met the man. But people believe he was from Sunshine.

730
00:34:02,281 --> 00:34:03,321
Speaker 3: People will believe stories.

731
00:34:03,361 --> 00:34:05,921
Speaker 1: I mean, he grew up in broad Meadows and a

732
00:34:06,041 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 1: very different situation to Sunshine completely. And he was not

733
00:34:10,041 --> 00:34:12,601
Speaker 1: a tough guy. He did not run with street gangs.

734
00:34:13,041 --> 00:34:16,721
Speaker 1: He was a businessman who needed people like Andrew Venyuman

735
00:34:16,961 --> 00:34:20,001
Speaker 1: and Debra to do his dirty work for him. Even Underbelly,

736
00:34:20,041 --> 00:34:23,041
Speaker 1: which portrayed him shooting Mark Moran, that's absolute rubbish.

737
00:34:23,041 --> 00:34:25,161
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, you've met Carl Yeah, and new.

738
00:34:25,161 --> 00:34:26,601
Speaker 1: Car back in the day. Of course, you know, during

739
00:34:26,641 --> 00:34:28,921
Speaker 1: that period when he was still with Benji and running

740
00:34:28,961 --> 00:34:30,481
Speaker 1: hot on the streets. And I spoke to him the

741
00:34:30,521 --> 00:34:33,801
Speaker 1: Saturday before he was murdered. And even then it was

742
00:34:33,801 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 1: his mate that murdered him, Matthew Johnson in jail there.

743
00:34:37,721 --> 00:34:38,681
Speaker 4: I was a friend of his.

744
00:34:38,761 --> 00:34:40,641
Speaker 1: He was a friend of his. He was He said

745
00:34:40,641 --> 00:34:45,041
Speaker 1: to me, there's issues about the media knowing that the

746
00:34:45,121 --> 00:34:48,801
Speaker 1: state was going to pay for my father's tax bill

747
00:34:49,241 --> 00:34:51,361
Speaker 1: if I would cooperate and things like that, and that

748
00:34:51,441 --> 00:34:53,401
Speaker 1: was going to come out, and that was the reason

749
00:34:53,441 --> 00:34:56,201
Speaker 1: he was murdered. But he was killed again by his friend.

750
00:34:56,881 --> 00:34:58,321
Speaker 1: But he was never a tough gun. He was never

751
00:34:58,361 --> 00:35:00,361
Speaker 1: in Sunshine. So let's put that on the record right now.

752
00:35:00,481 --> 00:35:02,601
Speaker 4: Yeah, he I can say that for sure.

753
00:35:02,681 --> 00:35:04,241
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you would have known him if he was

754
00:35:04,281 --> 00:35:06,801
Speaker 1: out there, he'd been a arrival to you or.

755
00:35:06,841 --> 00:35:09,161
Speaker 4: A friend or a friend if you grew up there.

756
00:35:09,321 --> 00:35:11,081
Speaker 1: Yeah, and if he were smart, you'd be his friend.

757
00:35:11,081 --> 00:35:14,441
Speaker 1: By the sounds, it was the whole area was going

758
00:35:14,481 --> 00:35:17,201
Speaker 1: to fall to death and mayhem. It looked that way,

759
00:35:17,561 --> 00:35:20,281
Speaker 1: and you could see the future. Yeah, how did you

760
00:35:20,321 --> 00:35:24,401
Speaker 1: go about changing your life? Changing your heart? You know?

761
00:35:24,921 --> 00:35:26,801
Speaker 3: Two thousand and one, you know, there was a big

762
00:35:26,881 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 3: drought in Melbourne and a lot of people stopped then.

763
00:35:31,761 --> 00:35:34,361
Speaker 3: I believe it lasted for over a year, two years,

764
00:35:35,241 --> 00:35:39,481
Speaker 3: so most people stopped using. Most people it was like

765
00:35:40,241 --> 00:35:43,961
Speaker 3: the lockdown, how the lockdown was, and people just stopped

766
00:35:44,001 --> 00:35:46,481
Speaker 3: using heroin drought exactly, And that's how it was. Then

767
00:35:46,521 --> 00:35:49,401
Speaker 3: there was a heroin drought and people just stopped using

768
00:35:50,361 --> 00:35:51,281
Speaker 3: and stopped dealing.

769
00:35:51,601 --> 00:35:52,601
Speaker 1: Ruined your business.

770
00:35:53,201 --> 00:35:56,281
Speaker 4: Not that I cared, I didn't care. I think it

771
00:35:56,361 --> 00:35:57,121
Speaker 4: happened for a reason.

772
00:35:58,081 --> 00:35:59,561
Speaker 1: Is what was going to happen to you? George?

773
00:36:02,561 --> 00:36:04,801
Speaker 3: I couldn't tell you, And at that time I couldn't

774
00:36:04,801 --> 00:36:09,121
Speaker 3: care less. That's how stupid kids are. Yeah, I couldn't

775
00:36:09,121 --> 00:36:10,361
Speaker 3: care less.

776
00:36:12,041 --> 00:36:14,641
Speaker 1: How do you end up putting a new value on

777
00:36:14,681 --> 00:36:17,801
Speaker 1: your life and seeing a future because that's what you did.

778
00:36:18,041 --> 00:36:21,641
Speaker 3: Good people, good people around you. If you always have

779
00:36:21,681 --> 00:36:24,761
Speaker 3: good people around you, you'll do well. It's that simple.

780
00:36:25,681 --> 00:36:31,161
Speaker 1: But you gave up money and power, position opportunities. You

781
00:36:31,201 --> 00:36:34,121
Speaker 1: could have been one of those big swinging crooks.

782
00:36:34,641 --> 00:36:37,121
Speaker 3: They used to say that would I will be a

783
00:36:37,161 --> 00:36:39,041
Speaker 3: lot of the Vietnamese, a lot of people in the area.

784
00:36:39,081 --> 00:36:40,481
Speaker 3: They're going to say this guy, he's going to run

785
00:36:40,521 --> 00:36:42,441
Speaker 3: Melbourne one day. And I used to think in my head, no,

786
00:36:42,441 --> 00:36:43,961
Speaker 3: I'm not. I can't wait to get out of this shit,

787
00:36:44,401 --> 00:36:47,961
Speaker 3: you know. But like I said, yeah, good people, and

788
00:36:48,001 --> 00:36:50,721
Speaker 3: I think it all happened for a reason. So I

789
00:36:50,761 --> 00:36:53,401
Speaker 3: feel like I got to write this book and I

790
00:36:53,441 --> 00:36:55,881
Speaker 3: want to start my charity. I want to stop kids

791
00:36:55,881 --> 00:36:56,561
Speaker 3: from going down this.

792
00:36:56,721 --> 00:37:00,401
Speaker 1: Road because there are a lot of children now. Children.

793
00:37:00,561 --> 00:37:02,201
Speaker 1: It's hard to believe you can get people who are

794
00:37:02,241 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 1: doing these aggravated burglaries, seriously violent assaults and so forth.

795
00:37:06,961 --> 00:37:10,401
Speaker 1: There's still children. But you've been in that place. How

796
00:37:10,401 --> 00:37:14,001
Speaker 1: do you think Melbourne and Australia should address the issue

797
00:37:14,041 --> 00:37:14,721
Speaker 1: of youth crime.

798
00:37:15,041 --> 00:37:17,161
Speaker 3: Stop pointing the finger that's for sure. That's for the

799
00:37:17,241 --> 00:37:20,601
Speaker 3: first thing, society points the finger in the direction of children.

800
00:37:21,241 --> 00:37:25,321
Speaker 3: Imagine this, the eels of society. We point our finger

801
00:37:26,081 --> 00:37:29,681
Speaker 3: at twelve year olds. Doesn't make sense. How do we

802
00:37:29,681 --> 00:37:33,281
Speaker 3: get beyond that? Well, first of all, we can't blame them.

803
00:37:33,321 --> 00:37:36,961
Speaker 3: We can't blame children for the eels of society. It's

804
00:37:36,961 --> 00:37:37,441
Speaker 3: that simple.

805
00:37:37,561 --> 00:37:40,681
Speaker 1: Because you were merely supplying a demand for.

806
00:37:40,721 --> 00:37:44,561
Speaker 3: Drugs exactly exactly so where we were at the time,

807
00:37:44,601 --> 00:37:47,041
Speaker 3: they would come to you and they would ask you

808
00:37:47,161 --> 00:37:49,801
Speaker 3: for certain things, and you think, why you're here, you

809
00:37:49,881 --> 00:37:52,241
Speaker 3: might as well supply that demand.

810
00:37:53,001 --> 00:37:53,881
Speaker 4: And that's how it started.

811
00:37:54,641 --> 00:37:56,281
Speaker 1: What would have made a difference in your life at

812
00:37:56,281 --> 00:37:57,401
Speaker 1: that stage, if.

813
00:37:57,281 --> 00:38:03,961
Speaker 3: Anything, sports Stay playing sports and stay at school. That

814
00:38:04,001 --> 00:38:08,801
Speaker 3: would make a difference. Stay off the street. And you know,

815
00:38:09,081 --> 00:38:10,961
Speaker 3: I've got some really good friends that I grew up

816
00:38:10,961 --> 00:38:13,801
Speaker 3: with from the street. And because I was about to say,

817
00:38:14,281 --> 00:38:16,761
Speaker 3: don't hang out with these certain type of people from

818
00:38:16,801 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 3: the street, but the best people I've ever met were

819
00:38:18,961 --> 00:38:21,161
Speaker 3: from the street. You know what I mean, Maybe one

820
00:38:21,201 --> 00:38:24,361
Speaker 3: day you'll meet them and you'll see these people, unbelievable people.

821
00:38:25,001 --> 00:38:27,321
Speaker 1: You know, it's like that old Bob dylanline. He said,

822
00:38:27,321 --> 00:38:28,521
Speaker 1: if you're going to be an outlaw, you have to

823
00:38:28,521 --> 00:38:31,201
Speaker 1: be honest.

824
00:38:29,961 --> 00:38:31,601
Speaker 3: At least I used to think, at least be honorable.

825
00:38:32,121 --> 00:38:34,081
Speaker 3: If you're going to do it, do it honorably. You

826
00:38:34,081 --> 00:38:34,561
Speaker 3: know what I mean?

827
00:38:35,681 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 1: How's your life now?

828
00:38:37,721 --> 00:38:42,201
Speaker 3: I've got no money, I'm a nobody and I've never

829
00:38:42,201 --> 00:38:42,761
Speaker 3: been happier.

830
00:38:43,801 --> 00:38:49,241
Speaker 4: That's simple. What does the future hold anything? Anything? I want?

831
00:38:50,961 --> 00:38:52,081
Speaker 1: Not money and power anymore.

832
00:38:52,121 --> 00:38:56,801
Speaker 3: I can care less for money, so money's gone. I

833
00:38:56,841 --> 00:38:58,361
Speaker 3: can care less if I make money.

834
00:38:58,481 --> 00:39:01,201
Speaker 1: Because this is a problem for not just criminals, but

835
00:39:01,241 --> 00:39:04,561
Speaker 1: everyone in society. Everyone's interested in money and power and materialism.

836
00:39:05,241 --> 00:39:08,361
Speaker 1: But you've got to a different level in your life

837
00:39:08,881 --> 00:39:10,921
Speaker 1: where you can be grateful.

838
00:39:11,121 --> 00:39:12,241
Speaker 4: Doesn't everybody get there?

839
00:39:12,601 --> 00:39:14,961
Speaker 1: Not everyone, afraid, not everyone, A lot of people, don't

840
00:39:15,241 --> 00:39:17,521
Speaker 1: you know. But I think in your life you've got

841
00:39:17,521 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 1: the love of a very loyal woman who's helped you

842
00:39:21,481 --> 00:39:24,921
Speaker 1: to get beyond what you used to be. That's right, yeah,

843
00:39:25,921 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 1: and that was a big help. I think you better

844
00:39:28,481 --> 00:39:31,281
Speaker 1: thank you while you're here. Don't you think you'd have

845
00:39:31,281 --> 00:39:34,401
Speaker 1: to name her? But what difference did your partner make

846
00:39:34,401 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 1: in your life?

847
00:39:35,001 --> 00:39:38,201
Speaker 3: She knows words from your mouth means nothing, words that

848
00:39:38,361 --> 00:39:40,281
Speaker 3: mean anything, So.

849
00:39:40,281 --> 00:39:44,041
Speaker 1: What advice would you give parents who've got young children

850
00:39:44,161 --> 00:39:45,921
Speaker 1: who are headed down the road.

851
00:39:46,281 --> 00:39:47,041
Speaker 4: Don't judge.

852
00:39:47,241 --> 00:39:49,601
Speaker 3: Don't think that your kid is the worst kid out there,

853
00:39:50,361 --> 00:39:56,881
Speaker 3: because I always considered the worst kid to tell the truth. Parents, teachers, police,

854
00:39:57,281 --> 00:40:01,081
Speaker 3: social workers, religious figures. They would say I was the

855
00:40:01,121 --> 00:40:04,721
Speaker 3: worst kid at school. The teacher would say, keep it up,

856
00:40:04,761 --> 00:40:06,081
Speaker 3: and you end up in George's gang.

857
00:40:06,841 --> 00:40:10,281
Speaker 4: You know what I mean? You think maybe I am.

858
00:40:10,561 --> 00:40:12,881
Speaker 3: You know, people keep saying that, You keep thinking that,

859
00:40:13,281 --> 00:40:17,001
Speaker 3: you know, so don't judge, don't be too hard because

860
00:40:17,041 --> 00:40:20,441
Speaker 3: people can change, you know what I mean. A teenager

861
00:40:20,561 --> 00:40:24,281
Speaker 3: going through crime or whatever they're going through, they can

862
00:40:24,801 --> 00:40:28,081
Speaker 3: get out of it. Believe me, a lot worse people

863
00:40:28,121 --> 00:40:30,201
Speaker 3: than me have got out of it, and they're really

864
00:40:30,241 --> 00:40:30,801
Speaker 3: good people.

865
00:40:31,321 --> 00:40:31,921
Speaker 4: You know what I mean.

866
00:40:32,601 --> 00:40:36,801
Speaker 1: Well, you're giving yourself another chance, and I'm fascinated to

867
00:40:36,801 --> 00:40:39,841
Speaker 1: see where you go with telling your own story and

868
00:40:39,881 --> 00:40:42,721
Speaker 1: carving in your future. Thank you so much for sharing

869
00:40:42,761 --> 00:40:44,441
Speaker 1: your story. I think you're a brave man full of

870
00:40:44,441 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 1: courage to do that, and I look forward to hearing

871
00:40:48,001 --> 00:40:48,761
Speaker 1: more about it soon.

872
00:40:49,161 --> 00:40:49,681
Speaker 4: You're welcome.

873
00:40:51,121 --> 00:40:52,881
Speaker 1: That was George Zionist. They used to call him the

874
00:40:52,961 --> 00:40:54,641
Speaker 1: King of Sunshine, but now He's the king of his

875
00:40:54,641 --> 00:40:57,161
Speaker 1: own life, king of his own future. And I think

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Speaker 1: this is a really important message to family out there.

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00:41:00,361 --> 00:41:03,281
Speaker 1: Don't give up on your kids. Keep working hard. They

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00:41:03,321 --> 00:41:05,481
Speaker 1: can have a future and you've just got to have

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Speaker 1: a bit of faith in it. This has been real

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00:41:07,801 --> 00:41:10,401
Speaker 1: crime with Adam Shann. Thank you for listening. If you'd

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00:41:10,441 --> 00:41:12,521
Speaker 1: like to get in touch with me with stories and ideas,

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00:41:12,761 --> 00:41:16,801
Speaker 1: please email me at Adam shandwriter at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 1: If you've got some information that you need to share

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Speaker 1: with the police, do it at crime Stoppers one at

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Speaker 1: one hundred, triple three, triple zero. Thanks for listening.