1 00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: I talked to him about what is the cost of 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: going against the church. There was this silence and he 3 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: started crying. He said, you just become incredibly isolated and lonely. 4 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: You're so interested in American history, you know, like you 5 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: think that's our history. It's not. This is our history. 6 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 1: This is what happened in an Australian side street. 7 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to separate bathrooms. We would like to 8 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 2: acknowledge the Gadigal people on the e or nation, the 9 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 2: traditional custodians of this land, and pay our respects to 10 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 2: the elders, both past and present. I'm cam Dado, Maley daddo. 11 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 2: It's great to have you with us today. Who me 12 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 2: or just now you listener, and we are us and it's. 13 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 3: And we are many. That's a song. 14 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 2: It is a song sing that I am, you are, we. 15 00:00:56,200 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 3: Are Australia or the rest of the world, as we were. 16 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 2: Saying before, because we do go worldwide. It's a flat 17 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 2: world now that we have the wonderful intraweb. 18 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 3: Are you a flat EARTHERA No, Okay. 19 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 2: I'm speaking metaphoric. Yeah, since the Internet's happened, because you 20 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 2: can access stuff all. 21 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 3: Over the world. Well, we listened to American podcasts and. 22 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 2: You know, on an overseas trip, I can watch a 23 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 2: live AFL NRL football game. That was cool, It's fantastic. 24 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 3: Yeah. 25 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 2: How's your jet lag? Yeah? 26 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm all right. 27 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 2: We've just come back from an overseas jaunt catching up 28 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 2: with our daughter. Yeah, he's been gone for nine months, 29 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 2: so it was great to see her and her boyfriend 30 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 2: Miles and hang out. So but I'll tell you, the 31 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 2: jet lag is very strange. Like I said, I said 32 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 2: to Ali this morning, I'm thinking that I'm going to 33 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 2: do some vim Hoff ice bathing to reset my body 34 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 2: because I think that's a good idea. That's that's the 35 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 2: feeling I got when I was standing under the cold 36 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 2: shower this morning. Game do a nice but see how 37 00:01:59,560 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 2: that goes. 38 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm going to sit by the heater. 39 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 2: Very good. Yeah, we all have different ways. Hey, Today, 40 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:10,079 Speaker 2: with the help of a wonderful author and playwright, we're 41 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 2: going to be talking about an Ossie icon, King's Bloody Cross, Yes, 42 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 2: and what happens in King's Cross, King's Cross, Sydney. Yeah, 43 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 2: of course, the Waystside Chapel. Yeah, it's located in the 44 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:27,519 Speaker 2: Cross and it's turning sixty. This has relevance I think 45 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 2: for Australia White absolutely. 46 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,799 Speaker 3: You know, Ted Knoff's founded The Wayside in nineteen sixty 47 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 3: four and look, it's been a controversial beacon of social 48 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 3: justice and inclusivity. And it's a place where people have 49 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 3: been welcomed for decades despite social taboos around race, class, 50 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 3: religion and sexuality. And this is what we're going to 51 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 3: be talking about. Yeah. 52 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 2: Alana Valentine has written a book published by the Amazing 53 00:02:54,919 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 2: Folks of Pantera called Wed by the Wayside, into the 54 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,679 Speaker 2: stories of couples married at Waistside Chapel, many of which 55 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 2: were turned away elsewhere, including political refugees, interracial and interfaith marriages, 56 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 2: same sex couples. Now this is fifty years right, fifty 57 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 2: years before same sex marriage was legalized, divorces, unwed mothers, 58 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 2: bikey sex workers, and more. 59 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 3: I can't wait to hear she's got some incredible stories 60 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 3: to share. So let's welcome Alana into the bathroom. 61 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 2: Welcome a lot of Valentine to the bathroom. How are 62 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 2: you very well? 63 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: Thank you? 64 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 2: First question, where'd you get your suit from? Look? 65 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: I made it, I sewed it with my own hands. 66 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 2: It's so good. 67 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: It's so cool. 68 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 3: I mean, number one, how cool is her name? Alana Valentine. 69 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 3: It sounds like something from a movie. And then she 70 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 3: rocks up in like this incredible Tartan suit. Is that 71 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 3: like a family Tartan? 72 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: No, not that I know of it is it is 73 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: just most interesting looking tartan on the shelf. 74 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was purposefully red white and blue? Is it? 75 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 2: Maybe because you got the stripes right, so it's kind 76 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 2: of American. It gives that stars and stripes feel. 77 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: No, No, it was just a color combination. I was 78 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: taken with that day, so. 79 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 3: I didn't pick up on stars and stripes Americans. 80 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 2: When I say stripes, red white and blue and tartan, 81 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 2: and it's kind of like a homage to Scottish American roots. 82 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 2: Maybe I don't know. It could be. Oh, mickey, you're 83 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 2: so pretty, you know thing. It's really just a basle. 84 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: Moment, the most attention grabbing. 85 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 2: Happened. Well, it's great. Okay, So you're one of Australia's 86 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 2: most acclaimed playwrights. Letters to Lindy Barbara and the Camp 87 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 2: Dog Waystside Brides. It's described as verbatim theater. Yeah, okay, 88 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 2: i'd never heard of verbatim theater, but I ran it 89 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:51,719 Speaker 2: by body last night and I said, do you know 90 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 2: about verbatim? Think, oh, yeah, you know? She said, can 91 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 2: you just explain verbatim theater? 92 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: So verbatim theater it's on the HS see syllabus, which 93 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: is why body would you go getting them young? You're inculcating. 94 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: But basically it's theater that's drawn from life. So usually 95 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: most verbatim theater will have a community or a group 96 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: of people that the playwright will actually interview as part 97 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:22,279 Speaker 1: of their process of making a play. And it's sort 98 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: of on a spectrum. You get like what's called pure 99 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: of abatim, where it's absolutely based on the transcripts. So 100 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 1: there was a play recently here about Matthew Shepherd who 101 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: was merdered in America, very famous play, the Laramie Project, 102 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: that's verbatim. So all the theater makers went to Laramie 103 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: and interviewed people and typed it up put it in 104 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 1: a play. So here we have pure of verbatim like that, 105 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: or will have plays that what I call massage verbatim. 106 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: So you go and you speak to people, but you 107 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 1: sort of collapse characters. You might make up a few 108 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 1: scenes things like that. So it is actually a wonderful 109 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 1: kind of document tree theater, but sivved through the brain 110 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 1: of a dramatist. 111 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 2: Okay, And I imagine people are really more complex than 112 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 2: often fiction. 113 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 1: You're so right, You're so right. I mean, you know, 114 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: people are contradictory. They have, you know, things that you think, well, 115 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: how can you be that both at once or three things? 116 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 1: And you know you deal with that all the time, 117 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 1: meeting people, real people every day. 118 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 3: Marriage very true, and we've actually said that like some 119 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 3: of the stories of how couples meet each other, you go, 120 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 3: you put that in a movie and people would go, 121 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 3: that's a lot of crap, but it really happened, Like 122 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 3: some of them have been incredible the stories, haven't they. 123 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, yeah, So was this process of your 124 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 2: researching in interviewing? Is that? Is that what inspired your book? 125 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 2: Were by Wayside? Yes? 126 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: It was. The additional kicker was that my mother was 127 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: married remarried at Wayside in ninety sixty nine herself, and 128 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: she's been for many, many years, and so I suppose 129 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:07,119 Speaker 1: I developed this real passion to speak to her about 130 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: why she'd chosen Wayside and why it was so popular then, 131 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: you know, Ted Nooffs did maybe thirty thousand weddings while 132 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: he was at the chapels. Yeah, and so I guess 133 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: the answer is that I was interested in it as 134 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 1: social history, but I was also just wanting to have, frankly, 135 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: a vicarious experience of interviewing these women of that generation 136 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: and age as a substitute for not being able to 137 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: speak to my own mum. 138 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, and what did you find out more about your 139 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 3: mum through the research of this book? 140 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: I did? I did, Ali, I found this generation of 141 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 1: women who particularly they are on the pivot of kind 142 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: of like in the early days, like in ninety oh two, 143 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: ninety seven percent of marriages happened in a religious ceremony. 144 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: Now today in twenty twenty one, eighty one percent done 145 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 1: by celebrants. So there's been this and you know the 146 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: graph that where that change is over the sixties is 147 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:06,239 Speaker 1: just that kind of full crum where people were going, well, 148 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: my parents want a religious seami, but I don't really 149 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:11,559 Speaker 1: you know, what will I do? And they are looking 150 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: for alternatives and Ted Knoff's was sort of one. I 151 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: was told the only show in town if you were 152 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: a divorcee, no one would marry you. So I did 153 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: find out things about Look, it's that thing of just 154 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: the way women of that age can be quite you know. 155 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: My mother used to say, oh, it was just convenient 156 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: up the corner, and they wouldn't tell you, you know where storytellers. 157 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: So we want but why and don't was the problem. 158 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: So I found that in a lot of these women, 159 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: they're very sort of matter of fact some of them, 160 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 1: but then they're also amazingly emotional about why, what the 161 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: cost of those choices were, because often they had to 162 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 1: go against and it was men as well, had to 163 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 1: go against their parents who sometimes disowned them, if they 164 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: were Atholics marrying Protestants, if there were Baptists marrying Jews. 165 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: You know, that's what was happening up at the Chapel. 166 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,959 Speaker 1: It was this amazing place where Ted Knoff's, who founded 167 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,439 Speaker 1: with his wife Margaret Knovs in nineteen sixty four, said 168 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,199 Speaker 1: if you are in love, I will marry you, and 169 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: you know nothing else. 170 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 3: That is the most beautiful thing. I just and the 171 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 3: fact that obviously same sex marriage was not legal then, 172 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 3: but he was still doing that in Obviously they weren't 173 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 3: able to go out in the real world and call 174 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 3: themselves husbands and husbands, but under his eyes. And I 175 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 3: guess and that made them feel under the eyes of 176 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 3: God in a way, being a reverend that they were married. 177 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: Yes, I had this wonderful contact with a man called 178 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: Kumar Ponisami and his parents. One was a Hindu, his 179 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: father was Hindu, his mother was a Christian. And they 180 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: got married at the Wayside Chapel and they were big 181 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: in the fashion industry in Sydney. They worked for Joseph Brenda, 182 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: who was a very famous Jewish entrepreneur. He set up 183 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: sort of Katies and all of these other sort of 184 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: fashion brands. And so when they went to the chapel, 185 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: it was this amazing sort of social thing. They had 186 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: all the you know in Hindu weddings, you have all 187 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 1: those amazing flowers that they put around. Well, they had 188 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: them all over the car, they had them all over themselves. 189 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: She was married in this amazing sari. They had a 190 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: dyed pink poodle as their excessory six this man. They 191 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: had a poodle. Yeah, it was it was just an 192 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 1: extraordinary wedding. And then they told me that one of 193 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,959 Speaker 1: the truck drivers for Katie's was a woman called Maria 194 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: and she married her partner Vicki in ninety sixty nine. 195 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: And as you say, they didn't the state would recognize it. 196 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: But there's this beautiful photo of Vicky Maria with this 197 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 1: very traditional wedding cake and they're in the real like 198 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: they're in a real you know, ones in a suit 199 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: and ones in a beautiful dress, and you can see 200 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: that they want to do that thing I'm talking about, 201 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: which is genuflect to their tradition but also be bold. 202 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 1: But the Kumar's parents were the witnesses for that wedding. 203 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 3: Beautiful. 204 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it was great, and I have actual evidence, 205 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:18,680 Speaker 1: like I've got photographic evidence that Ted was doing these 206 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 1: amazing weddings. Yeah. 207 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 2: And so your connection really comes through your mom, is 208 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 2: that's right? 209 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: That's right? 210 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:26,839 Speaker 2: And so and you said your mom passed away a 211 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,679 Speaker 2: long time ago and you didn't have these answers. Yeah, 212 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,719 Speaker 2: what took you to the wayside? How did you find it? 213 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 2: With that connection to your mum and wanting to know 214 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 2: more about your mom? 215 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,319 Speaker 1: So what happened was so I found this photo and 216 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: people who have been married there, I mean, what's interesting 217 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: came is that they that when I said I was 218 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 1: writing this play about everyone, I'm not talking just a 219 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 1: couple of people. Everyone would say, Oh, my sister's brother's husband, 220 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: my mother, my grandfather, my next door neighbor. Everyone I 221 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: met had a story about way Side. So I went 222 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: up there. As you say, I kind of saw this 223 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 1: photo of my mum and there's this famous wire sign 224 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: that says the Wayside Chapel, so she was photographed outside it. 225 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: So I went up there and I met Graham Long. 226 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: He was the pastor at the time of the Wayside 227 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: Chapel and he had presided over quite a huge renovation 228 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: of the chapel, so it was a little bit different 229 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: to what it was in ninety sixty four when it 230 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: was set up. But he told me this amazing story 231 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 1: about how they still conducting weddings, like because people know 232 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 1: now that Wayside has amazing outreached a street people and 233 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: the homeless and all of that. So I spoke to 234 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: a couple of people who've been married there recently whose 235 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: friends said to them and why are you getting married 236 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: in a homeless shelter, And it's like, no, there's actually 237 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: all these other things that Wayside do. But he told 238 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: me this beautiful story had a bride. They dressed her 239 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: from a dress in the op shop. She was ready 240 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: to go down the aisle and she started crying and 241 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 1: Graham said to a why you Oh, I always thought 242 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,559 Speaker 1: my dad would give me away, So he said, can 243 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 1: you hang on a minute, And he literally went out 244 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: into the street in Hughes Street, waited for the next man, 245 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: who was about sixty to walk past, and said, would 246 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: you come in and give away this bride? And he 247 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: luckily chose a very dap a gay man who immediately 248 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: came in and said to this woman, stop that crying. 249 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,319 Speaker 1: I'm going to You've got luck your best today and 250 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: walked her down the aisle as if he'd known her 251 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: all his life. And you know, to be honest, that 252 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: became a metaphor for me of what Wayside is for 253 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:38,199 Speaker 1: people who, you know, maybe their families rejected them, maybe 254 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 1: culturally they don't want to go to the traditional sort 255 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,319 Speaker 1: of place. They find a family at Wayside. And so, 256 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: to answer your question, Hamor, and it's that thing of well, 257 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 1: I was kind of seeking an interest in that as well, 258 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: because obviously my mother was dead, so I sort of 259 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 1: was looking for those stories. But I was also looking 260 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: for a way to connect with not just the past, 261 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: but with the present. 262 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 2: Did that story that you just told, was that something 263 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 2: that's happening recently or had that happen back way back 264 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 2: there that's happened recently? 265 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: So that was like Graham long was as you know, 266 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: John Owen is the pastor there now he's been there 267 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: for several years. Yes, Graham, I started this research in 268 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, so it happened twenty fifteen, twenty fourteen. 269 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because I do have a connection with Wayside 270 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 2: as well. Yes, so John who's now Yeah, I met him, 271 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 2: but I did that TV show Filthy, Rich and Homeless, 272 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 2: and I ended up at Bondi and was basically living 273 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 2: behind the pavilion for I was there for four nights, 274 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 2: four or five nights there. The wayside was where the 275 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 2: guy that was sleeping beside me in a one man tent. 276 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 2: He was involved in a court case because he had 277 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 2: a boat. He was living in far North Queensland and 278 00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 2: his boat was run over by a runaway tug bow 279 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 2: that was unmanned and he was sleeping in it in 280 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 2: his boat and the tugboat went over the top of him, 281 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 2: and so he lost everything terrible. So he was now 282 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 2: living in the back of the pavilion, sleeping next to 283 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 2: me and going up to the Wayside Chapel with his 284 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 2: computer to speak with his lawyer and they would meet. 285 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 2: And he said to me one night he goes, come 286 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 2: up to the Cross, We'll go to Wayside, we'll get 287 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 2: a free feed. And it was just to me and 288 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 2: seeing the why sign. The people up there were so 289 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 2: kind and it was just, I know what you're saying, 290 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 2: that feeling of inclusiveness, and yeah, we'll take you in 291 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 2: and you're okay. 292 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I mean in the book, I say 293 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: that I think Margaret and Ted opened a magic portal 294 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: to people's better sense of themselves. Like when you walk 295 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: into that place, you go, I can be something more 296 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: than society tells me I can be. And all of 297 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: the people since have kept that portal sort of open. 298 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: But yeah, it's interesting too, Like what you're talking about 299 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: is that mix of middle class and street But it's 300 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: not just a place where street people go. There's a 301 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: lot of very wealthy patrons for Wayside. There's a lot 302 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: of people who go there to get married, who are, 303 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: like I said, sort of they want it for a 304 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: society kind of wedding. Jane Powell got married there. Ida 305 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: Butchers got married there, she did, Yeah, and Andy Gibb 306 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: got married there. 307 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 2: You know. 308 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: So there's quite a lot of people who sort of 309 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: like you, probably wanted to identify with the work that 310 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: Wayside's doing. Yeah. 311 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 2: Absolutely, the part of it too though, as you said before, 312 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 2: where people will go, oh, isn't it like a homeless 313 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 2: thing for you to be bringing this back around to 314 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 2: relationship and love and weddings and communion in that way, 315 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 2: I think it's really it's really beautiful. As you know, 316 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 2: we are a relationship podcast. Yes, so can you you 317 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 2: go through your in your book where by the way, 318 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 2: so some of the relationships and some of the stories 319 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 2: incredible stories you're able to share a couple of your favorites. 320 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: I will, first of all, I will tell you that 321 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: it is interesting to me how many of the people 322 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 1: who I spoke to were still married after fifty years, 323 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: and almost all of them had had, you know, from 324 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 1: mild sort of disapproval to uta cutting off from their 325 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: family and never seen again, all along that spectrum they 326 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: But I wanted to I always wanted to do a 327 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 1: sort of survey of what would be the percentage of 328 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: people married at wayside who are still married compared to 329 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,120 Speaker 1: the general population. Now that's not to say that people 330 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: should stay in marriages that don't work, of course not. 331 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: But it is just really interesting to me that people 332 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,479 Speaker 1: who married for love in that way, you know, are 333 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: still together fifty years ago. So the first couple I'll 334 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: talk about is a man called Sean Smith and his 335 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 1: wife Joan. And Joan was an English Protestant and he 336 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 1: was an Irish Catholic and he was adopted in Australia, 337 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: and he told me this great story about it was 338 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: so hard at that time to cross that divide that 339 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:14,439 Speaker 1: he went pick up a date. It wasn't Joan, was 340 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: someone else, and the father came out with a shotgun 341 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: and said, if you're a Catholic, you can get off 342 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: my land and don't come back. So I'm sure some 343 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: of your listeners might remember how vituperative that Catholic Protestant 344 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 1: divide sort of was. So there's quite a lot of 345 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 1: stories in there about that. Sean, like any Irish Catholic, 346 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:37,679 Speaker 1: was a great raconteur. I've got to say, I just 347 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: literally had to push record and he just told me 348 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 1: this fantastic story. He was actually his mother was in 349 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 1: one of those Magdalen laundries in Ireland. If you were 350 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: an unmarried mother, you would be put into these Catholics 351 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 1: sort of. They're called laundries, but they're actually like homes. 352 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: So he was adopted out of that, given away by 353 00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: his mother, and he told me the whole story of 354 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: going back to Ireland and finding his mother. But the 355 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 1: story of their marriage was that he'd I think he'd 356 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: been in jail for breaking and entering, and he had 357 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: befriended the deaf people in jail, and when he got 358 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: out Joan, who's not deaf but was friends with other 359 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: deaf people. She and he had gone on a date 360 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,919 Speaker 1: and then decided that they were going to get married 361 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,640 Speaker 1: after many months of dating, and they lived in their car. 362 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,199 Speaker 1: He said to me during the interview, Oh yeah, we 363 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 1: graduated up to a tent after a while, which I 364 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: thought was kind of hilarious. The other story I'll tell 365 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,479 Speaker 1: you about as a woman called Ursula Zufo who married 366 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 1: what she called a serial bigamist, so he had married 367 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: when she found out eventually that she'd married him. Because 368 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: some of your listeners may remember group certificates you used 369 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: to get posted them for your tax So she opened 370 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: this envelope with his group certificate in it had a 371 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,120 Speaker 1: different name, and he said, oh, well, you found me out. 372 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: And the police told her later that he was a 373 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: serial bigamist. He'd married like four or five people in Canada, 374 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: then come out to Australia and married four or five more. 375 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: She had to then, when she wanted to get married 376 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 1: again at Wayside to her bo, who was an Italian man, 377 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: she had to prove that she wasn't really married. So 378 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: they had to find the very first wife, who happened 379 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 1: to live in Redford and so I know, it was fantastic. 380 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,160 Speaker 1: So she said he was an Italian so he knew 381 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,239 Speaker 1: some people, which I didn't ask any further about. But 382 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: they found the first wife and she had to go 383 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,679 Speaker 1: to court and say, yes, I'm the only wife. The 384 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 1: rest of you are just mugs basically. So yeah, that 385 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 1: was a wonderful story. She ended up getting married to Sergio, 386 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 1: and she refused to get married in a Catholic church, 387 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 1: and as an Italian Catholic, that was very hard. But 388 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: they proved that she wasn't really ever legally married and 389 00:20:52,680 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: they got married by Ted Noff's. One of the ones 390 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: that really affected me was a woman called Isabella Tran 391 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 1: who married a Vietnamese man in the nineteen seventies when 392 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 1: there were no Vietnamese in Australia. She said, bank accounts 393 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: didn't even know how to have three names in the 394 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 1: filling in form, you know. And she said he was 395 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 1: a certain number of students. He was there at the 396 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 1: University of Canberra studying and he asked her out and 397 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 1: they eventually got married. And she talked with real pain 398 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 1: that her grandmother, who was from Queensland, said that it 399 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: was the thing that would kill her that she decided 400 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 1: to marry a Vietnamese. 401 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:39,199 Speaker 2: Thing to hold on to it. 402 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: Heavy thing to hold onto. 403 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. 404 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 1: There's a woman called Sally Dolman who was a Quantus 405 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 1: flight attendant and she married her partner, Jeff, and then 406 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: told a really harrowing story about her baby who who 407 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: was burned. They had to be in a sort of 408 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: a facility for six months with the the child, and 409 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:04,360 Speaker 1: he lived and he's now one of Australia's best visual artists. 410 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 1: I guess the thing to say is about these marriages 411 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 1: is that people often talk not just about the happiness, 412 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: but about the hardship. And you'll know that from being 413 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 1: at Wayside, people don't kind of divide their lives into 414 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: this was good and this was bad. They sort of 415 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 1: almost took about it all as a continuum and when 416 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 1: you interview people you get both. You know, they don't 417 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: just stop at the wedding. But yeah, amazing resilience in 418 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: the couples. I've met and learned a lot about my 419 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,120 Speaker 1: mother because of that. Yeah, beautiful. 420 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 3: From listening to these stories and hearing the experiences, what 421 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 3: more did you learn about this? Amazing Ted Knoff because 422 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 3: he sounds incredible what he was doing. And do you 423 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 3: know more about his history where he came from as well? 424 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: Yes, So they set the Waisa Chapel up in nineteen 425 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: sixty four. He had been in America and working with 426 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: in Chicago, working with street people there, so that notion 427 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 1: of a Chris outreach to the poor was sort of 428 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,879 Speaker 1: he'd brought that back to Australia and to be honest, 429 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: he came into and way Such chapel still has some 430 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: contention about the amount of social justice work that they 431 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: do and what is the line. The book talks about 432 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:21,920 Speaker 1: how Ted was charged with heresy three times, so two 433 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: times officially. And what heresy is is it means that 434 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:29,360 Speaker 1: you it was actually technically called unfaithfulness to the doctrines 435 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: of the faith, meaning that you're not keeping to the 436 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: exact letter of some of the most important tenets of 437 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: the faith. And what was amazing for this was that 438 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 1: there was a man called John Hall, a reverend who 439 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: had just graduated from the seminary, and he asked the 440 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: Methodist Church it was then, to charge Ted with this 441 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 1: because he said that Ted's theology was not what the 442 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: Methodist Church believed. And I realized that no one had 443 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: ever found John Hall and talk to him, because I 444 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 1: was going through all the newspaper articles and I rang 445 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,719 Speaker 1: the Westside Chapel and I asked John, I said, do 446 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:09,640 Speaker 1: you know how I get in contact with John Hall? 447 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 1: Is he even alive? And a friend of a friend 448 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 1: of a friend. Next day I was speaking to John 449 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 1: Hall and I was yeah, and I was expecting this, 450 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: you know, kind of fire and brimstone, having to hold 451 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 1: the phone out from my ear, and he wasn't. He 452 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: just he was just fantastic. I said, did you ever 453 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 1: meet Ted? And he said, oh, yeah, yeah, Ted and 454 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 1: I got on, well, we just I just completely disagreed 455 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: with his theology and didn't think he should be part 456 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: of the church. And I was like, it would be 457 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: better for my story if you were a real you know, 458 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,959 Speaker 1: sort of like ever worship. But no, he was an 459 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 1: extremely exciting man. He said, Oh, nobody's ever really rung 460 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 1: me before. Yeah, it's interesting Ted. I mean I also 461 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 1: spoke to Matt Knopf's whose Ted's grandson, and Matt Noffs 462 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: you will know, is still doing amazing work with the 463 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: homeless and you know, youth, particular young people who have 464 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: drug problems. He's written a book about addiction, and he 465 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,719 Speaker 1: and his brother Rupert have been very supportive of my 466 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: investigations of Ted, And yeah, it's it's been amazing kind 467 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,159 Speaker 1: of connecting with what Ted was trying to do. I 468 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 1: he died very early of a stroke. Ted and at 469 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: fifty eight, I think he was he wasn't very old, 470 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: but he you know, I think it broke him the 471 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,199 Speaker 1: attacks from the church. I mean, Ted knew how to 472 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:33,439 Speaker 1: get his mates and his friends, and he had a 473 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: lot of sectarian as it were, or secular supporters, but 474 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: I think it broke his heart. The church turned on 475 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,119 Speaker 1: him because they basically were saying, this is not in 476 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: line with our theology, and he used it to gain 477 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: a lot of publicity and support. But in his heart 478 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 1: of hearts and Matt said this, he thinks that it 479 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 1: broke him. Yeah, but what's been amazing for me, if 480 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: I can just say, is that young people who came 481 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 1: to the play and who I hope will read the 482 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: book sort of would grab my arm and say, we 483 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: didn't know that there was somebody in the past who 484 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 1: was trying to do this stuff and who was marrying people. 485 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: We just thought the past is like this, you know, 486 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: sort of like this horror show of tree and discrimination. 487 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,640 Speaker 1: And it's just really exciting for people to be engaging 488 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 1: with the fact that those kind of changes come from somewhere, 489 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: and to be honest, people sacrifice their lives in a 490 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 1: way to make those changes happen. 491 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, the church could use a ted nofs today, right, 492 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 2: I mean, the church would probably really want a ted 493 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 2: nos based on the fact that that congregations are getting 494 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:43,400 Speaker 2: smaller and smaller. 495 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, forty four percent of Australian's Christians now or identify 496 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 1: on the census. I think fifty five percent identifies some 497 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: religion in Australia. 498 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 2: So, yeah, do you know what it used to be? 499 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: Oh, it used to be much it used to be 500 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,879 Speaker 1: much much higher. Yeah, I don't know the exact figures, 501 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: but I do know that that twenty four percent is 502 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: I think it's one of the first times it's dropped 503 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 1: below sort of the fifty percent. I mean, I did 504 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 1: interview Bill Cruz, who runs the Exodus Foundation, and he 505 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: was Ted's sort of two ic or second in command. 506 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 1: He did a lot of work up at the Wayside 507 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,640 Speaker 1: Chapel and he there was a really painful moment where 508 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 1: I interviewed him and I talked to him about what 509 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,159 Speaker 1: is the cost of going against the church? Because he 510 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 1: also had a statue of Korean comfort women that they 511 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,399 Speaker 1: said to him, you got to take it down. You know, 512 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: he's got a church in Ashfield. There was this silence 513 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: and he started crying. He said, you just become incredibly 514 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: isolated and lonely, and so you're getting it from inside 515 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: the church and from outside. So I think Bill Cruz 516 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: is kind of, yeah, my contemporary Ted Knoff's. But look, 517 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 1: there are people in all religious organizations trying to liberalize 518 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: and kind of make more just. It's just that they 519 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 1: don't sort of get the airtime. And especially I think 520 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: there's always this useful polarity between the right wing religious 521 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,639 Speaker 1: and the LGBTQI community that is kind of played up. 522 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:09,959 Speaker 1: There's a lot more people in the center and across 523 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,679 Speaker 1: the margins, you know, than sort of I don't know. 524 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: Sometimes the media give credit for. 525 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 3: What has researching the book? Has it taught you anything 526 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 3: about love or marriage? 527 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,400 Speaker 1: It's taught me that, yes, that things that start off 528 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 1: rocky the only way can be up. Sometimes. You know, 529 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: a lot of these people met in difficult or really 530 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: circumstances that had a lot of hurdles. It's taught me 531 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 1: about the fact that we are more than our individual love, 532 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: you know, if I can put it that way. What 533 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: I mean by that is that how we get married 534 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 1: and how we think about our relationships is also about 535 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: the times. And one of the things the book does 536 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: is that it says, well, okay, compare this to your 537 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: first meeting and your planning for your wedding and what 538 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: you prioritized. There's a story right at the end of 539 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 1: two people who got married in twenty eighteen, Claire Kahlen 540 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 1: and Peter Owen, and they deliberately got married at Wayside 541 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: because they wanted a connection to their local community. And 542 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: they were saying, like, we don't want to put all 543 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: our money and all our planning into these big, sort 544 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: of glamorous weddings. We want, actually, we want to be 545 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 1: connected into the place where we live. So that was 546 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: really interesting to me. It was like they were much 547 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 1: more aware of the sort of symbolism of getting married 548 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: at wayside. Yeah, I really liked that. But I guess 549 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: the thing I've learned most is that we are individuals 550 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 1: and we make individual choices, but we are also people 551 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: of our time. And you know, how you got married, 552 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: why you got married, and whether it lasts or not, 553 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: and what are the is shoes around It are as 554 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: much about what's going on around you as it is 555 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: about what's inside the relationship. I've listened to the podcast 556 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: and know you sometimes talk about that, like what the 557 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: culture of the wedding is and what the expectations of 558 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: the couples are, and I think sometimes you know, it 559 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: was really exciting. There's there's a moment in the book 560 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: I say I was heading into a field of flower children, 561 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: which is what it was. You know, in the sixties, 562 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: they were very hopeful about the ability to change the 563 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: world through love. Yeah, and there's a moment in the 564 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 1: book where I talk about in Australia, are our revolutions 565 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: kind of more quiet like that, Like people don't of 566 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 1: course they go out on the streets sometimes, but maybe 567 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,719 Speaker 1: they don't always do that. They just they vote with 568 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: their you know, their feet. They go to wayside to 569 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 1: get married instead of you know, having a big different 570 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: to America. Is what I was trying to see. How 571 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: does religious change happen in this country in a different 572 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 1: way than it happens in America, you know, where it's 573 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: more sort of in public and there's a lot more 574 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 1: legal things involved. But yeah, here people just kind of 575 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 1: quietly went to Wayside in their thousands, because it wasn't 576 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: until July ninety seventy three that there were celebrants in 577 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: the country. So that's why it's been this big change. 578 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, it makes so much sense to me that so 579 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 3: many of the marriages have lasted, as you were saying earlier, 580 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 3: because it feels like there's so much more consciousness about 581 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 3: coupling with your partner when you're doing it at wayside, 582 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 3: because yeah, you fought the extremes of the outside world, 583 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 3: whether you're same sex or different religions or different nationalities 584 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 3: or whatever, and the fact that you've still chosen for 585 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 3: the pure essence of love. And I mean, I know 586 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 3: that's what we should all be choosing when we get married, 587 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 3: but I feel like in that dynamic and in that 588 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 3: little place in the world, it's really conscious. So I 589 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 3: think it's just it's sprinkled with so much magic. I'm 590 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 3: ready to get married again. 591 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 2: At the Wayside we did, so we've been we've been 592 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 2: married two times. We got the first time, we got 593 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 2: married in the church and at another Sydney institution, the 594 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 2: Garrison Church, and that's that's where we wonder why we 595 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 2: why we ended up getting married there. 596 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 3: It was just really pretty. 597 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:14,479 Speaker 2: There. 598 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 3: There was not much else about it. Really we were young. 599 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 1: And. 600 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 2: Because I was, I was born in Melbourne, I grew 601 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 2: up in Melbourne, So. 602 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 3: No, why we I really don't know why we got married, 603 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 3: which is interesting because also again going back to the Wayside, 604 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 3: you chose the Wayside for a very specific reason. Where 605 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 3: we just got married because it was a nice church 606 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 3: and it was the oldest church in Sydney. 607 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 2: That was cool. 608 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: Beautiful. 609 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 2: It's a gorgeous church. And looking back at those pictures 610 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 2: and you go, okay, we're going to do a traditional wedding. 611 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 2: That was That was a great place to do it 612 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 2: still is. I mean, it's a stunning place. But then 613 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 2: we got married. We renewed our vows in a circle 614 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 2: of stones with a celebrant and in the shadow of 615 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:59,479 Speaker 2: a TP everyone's standing around in a circle. We were 616 00:32:59,480 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 2: in a meeting. 617 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 3: It's very flower Child apparently absolutely everyone had flower Lason 618 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 3: and yeah, so maybe it. 619 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 2: Is a chance to renew it and get conscious again. Hey, 620 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 2: what do you hope and who do you hope? Of 621 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 2: course you want everyone to read the book. Who are 622 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 2: you writing this for? 623 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: Look, when I had the play on, I really thought 624 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: it would be Ted's cohorts, like you know, people sort 625 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 1: of in their sixties and seventies Belvoir sort of main 626 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,239 Speaker 1: audience that would come. And like I mentioned before, what 627 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,959 Speaker 1: gave me the most joy was the as the weeks 628 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: went on, because on for like nearly six weeks, it 629 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 1: was like younger people coming and saying, why don't we 630 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 1: know this about our history? Why aren't we told? And 631 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: you know, I might make some schorelous statement about well, 632 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 1: you're so interested in American history, you know, like you 633 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: think that's our history. It's not. This is our history. 634 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 1: This is what happened in an Australian side street. So 635 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: look to answer your question, I would really love a 636 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: young audience for this. I've done a few kind of 637 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: really interesting interviews like Hani Sir, and you know, young 638 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: people who want to find out where the radicals were 639 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: in our past, and where the visionaries were and who 640 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,759 Speaker 1: were the leaders who were saying to politicians this is 641 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 1: not good enough anymore. You know, people maybe thinking about 642 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: getting married and maybe thinking about why you do that, 643 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 1: why you make that commitment, and why you choose to 644 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: use your money and your time at particular places rather 645 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 1: than others. 646 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 3: It'd be a great subtle gift to to give to like, 647 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,839 Speaker 3: you know, parents that were very strict one who they 648 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 3: want their child to marry, and you just kind of 649 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 3: slip that in and go just just read this book, 650 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 3: you know, and then they can maybe get some ideas 651 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 3: and be inspired by love is love and be a 652 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 3: bit more accommodating to their child and who they choose 653 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:55,760 Speaker 3: to marry. 654 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,399 Speaker 2: Is that sort of like the message that you want. 655 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, look, certainly there are people who made 656 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 1: that choice and it was not only a difficult choice, 657 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: but in some cases a fatal choice. You know, Like 658 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 1: there were people who told me about violence that was 659 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 1: put on people because of like Bill Cruise told me, 660 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: he's had people come to the wedding and try and 661 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 1: disrupt it. He's had to have security at the weddings. 662 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 1: You know, all of that. So it's not like I'm 663 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 1: telling the gorgeous stories, but there's also can be a 664 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 1: cost to kind of not having anything more to do 665 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 1: with your family ever. So I want to celebrate that you 666 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 1: can make that choice and still find an alternative family 667 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:39,400 Speaker 1: or people who are your tribe. You don't have to 668 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,279 Speaker 1: stick to those old ways, that there are people who 669 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 1: will support a new vision. 670 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 3: Do you hope that the play will come back again 671 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 3: now that the book is coming out? 672 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,720 Speaker 1: May you be a prophet of future possibilities? 673 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 3: But it makes so much sense, you know, to have 674 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,799 Speaker 3: that in combination I think would be really beautiful. 675 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 1: So thank you. 676 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:00,399 Speaker 3: Ali. 677 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 1: It's also that thing you probably noticed that and you're 678 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 1: from Melbourne Camp, so you know it's that thing of 679 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: stories from Sydney. Don't necessarily travel to Melbourne or to 680 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 1: Brisbane whereas they should. You know, we do stories from Ireland, 681 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 1: the stories from America. 682 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 2: Have you ever thought about that? Why it's so bordered? 683 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 2: You know what it cloistered in you Sydney people. It's like, 684 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 2: wait a second, but you know when something happens nationally 685 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 2: or we all band together, we do. It's just this, 686 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,880 Speaker 2: it's just this parochial state. I mean, you're so prolific, 687 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,399 Speaker 2: is there? Are you always working on the next when 688 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 2: you if you've got a pipe that you're plugging, you 689 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:38,800 Speaker 2: know you've got something new going into the pipe, something 690 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 2: finishing at the end of the pipe, and purple something, 691 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 2: you know, something actually happening in the pipe. 692 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 1: Yes, I mean that's the life of a person working 693 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: in the arts. You've got things going on because not 694 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 1: everything happens at the same time. But I'm very excited. 695 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,760 Speaker 1: There's actually like a lot of plays are now being 696 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 1: made into books and that's because people are interested in 697 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,440 Speaker 1: those the recess search that playwrights do. I have been 698 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 1: commissioned by a company in Woollongong to write about the 699 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,880 Speaker 1: Linked Cafe Siege, and I've interviewed Thomas Sinn, who's the 700 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,479 Speaker 1: partner of Tory Johnson who died in that siege, and 701 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 1: also his mother. So that's actually they're singing in that. 702 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: It's just very exciting to deal with these sorts of 703 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 1: social issues in it's creative nonfiction, I guess. 704 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, what an interesting tale to tell and how I 705 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 2: mean visual it is also because there it is like 706 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 2: you said when you said a side street in Sydney. Yeah, yeah, 707 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 2: you know, it's a side street in Sydney that's on 708 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,880 Speaker 2: one of the most colorful streets in the in the world, 709 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 2: you know, and then to have it at that time 710 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,759 Speaker 2: with all the all the like the Flower Child, the 711 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 2: sixties and the seventies and the music, I can see 712 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,320 Speaker 2: it see it all on screen. 713 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,239 Speaker 1: Well, there's lots of stories too about like you know, 714 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:57,560 Speaker 1: sometimes the Americans would get married at waystside on their 715 00:37:57,920 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 1: R and. 716 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 2: R and of course to come in the sailors would 717 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:02,400 Speaker 2: come in, it's right. 718 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,800 Speaker 1: And there's one there's a photo of one African American 719 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 1: man in a sort of floppy white hat marrying his 720 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,239 Speaker 1: partner in a floppy white hat. But yeah, there were 721 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:15,359 Speaker 1: lots of those Vietnam veterans were married at wayside. So 722 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: you've got the whole. There was lots of bikeies. There's 723 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,600 Speaker 1: a guy called skull Wiggans who got married at wayside 724 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,800 Speaker 1: and you know, then they zoomed off on the bike. 725 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,640 Speaker 1: So yeah, I think people will be amazed by the 726 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 1: tapestry of that. 727 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:30,720 Speaker 3: Yeah. Is there photos to go. 728 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 1: With their shores? Yeah? 729 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:34,960 Speaker 3: I know, because I'm like visualizing at all. I like 730 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 3: to actually get to see the people that you're reading about. 731 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, amazing. The book is wed by the wayside Alana Valentine, 732 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining us today. 733 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 1: Thank you. 734 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:48,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, best of luck with it all. I just think 735 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 3: it sounds like there's so many layers to the book, clearly, 736 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:53,279 Speaker 3: and I think it's going to be a huge hit. 737 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 3: I know I'm going to be talking about it for 738 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 3: a while. It sounds awesome. 739 00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:58,600 Speaker 2: Lovely meeting you, Thank. 740 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:05,240 Speaker 3: You, thank you. I cannot wait to read that book. 741 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 3: That just absolutely lights me up. The idea of what 742 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:09,719 Speaker 3: she's written about. 743 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so many stories in there, and the time 744 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,200 Speaker 2: that it happens, and how relevant it is today in 745 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,040 Speaker 2: what we're looking for and people are looking for something 746 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 2: for substance, you know, and heart. She's such a smart lady. 747 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 2: Some of the words she used it. I'm like, I'm 748 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:33,800 Speaker 2: going to have to look up what pejorative means. She's great, 749 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,239 Speaker 2: she's awesome. Yeah. Yeah, And the Waistside Chapel is such 750 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,239 Speaker 2: a beacon. It is for so many and as I 751 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:43,719 Speaker 2: probably used too many words, but in my experience of 752 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 2: the Waistside Chapel, but they do. They also have another 753 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,320 Speaker 2: part down at Bondi as well, which is where I 754 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 2: found a lot of great humans down there, such great 755 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,320 Speaker 2: stories and full of hope. 756 00:39:57,800 --> 00:39:59,919 Speaker 3: I was going to ask, I don't think. I don't. 757 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,800 Speaker 3: I think this is the case. But Ted Noffs should 758 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 3: have like the Order of Australia for the work he 759 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:06,720 Speaker 3: was doing. 760 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 1: With the waste. 761 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:07,920 Speaker 2: He doesn't already. 762 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know if he does or not. But 763 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,280 Speaker 3: as you say, like to be that kind of a beacon, 764 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:15,920 Speaker 3: to be that kind of to go against the church 765 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,319 Speaker 3: in so many ways, he's brave, very brave, and to 766 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,960 Speaker 3: be ostracized the way he was. But to continue to 767 00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 3: marry people because they were in love, that's there is 768 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 3: no greater reason than that. 769 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:31,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I agree. We will see. Let's go find 770 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,439 Speaker 2: it out. We'll go and research, we will, We'll research Ted, 771 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:38,439 Speaker 2: We'll do a verbatim play about that. I think it's 772 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,840 Speaker 2: already done. Alana Valentine's written it in her book wed 773 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:46,160 Speaker 2: By the Wayside, which crosses state boundaries. So wherever you're listening, 774 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:50,920 Speaker 2: wherever you're listening around the world, certainly inside of Australia, 775 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,160 Speaker 2: it's a separate bathrooms. Web By the Wayside is going 776 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,880 Speaker 2: to be relevant to you because it's about lam from correct. 777 00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:02,839 Speaker 3: All right, thanks so much for listening. Everyone feels cold.