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Speaker 1: Let's say you and I are having an argument. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we're really going for it. We're raising our voices and

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Speaker 1: hands are flying around, and then I say to you, hey,

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Speaker 1: calm down. Will that work in a highly emotional state?

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Speaker 1: Has that tactic ever been effective? Nah? Nah, not at all.

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Speaker 1: There are indeed ways to calm down, but that is

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Speaker 1: not one of them. What is interesting is our response

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Speaker 1: to pain is kind of similar, and it is something

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Speaker 1: that my guest today, the physiotherapist and author Jessica Maguire,

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Speaker 1: has spent a whole career focusing on. Today, we're going

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Speaker 1: to explore the complex relationship between pain and the nervous

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Speaker 1: system and emotional regulation. Jessica is going to share her

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Speaker 1: insights on how our bodies process pain and practical techniques

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Speaker 1: for regulating your nervous system. We're going to do all

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Speaker 1: of that right after this break.

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Speaker 2: There was some good research that showed the number one

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Speaker 2: predictor of how much disability somebody would have with lower

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Speaker 2: back pain was really related to their belief of what

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Speaker 2: was wrong at the start. And so for a lot

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Speaker 2: of old school health pros, they've gone in and they said,

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Speaker 2: you've got a spine of a seventy year old. This

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Speaker 2: is stuff my patients were telling me, you know, you've

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Speaker 2: got disc degeneration and all these things, which really they're

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Speaker 2: like having a gray hair, they're like having a wrinkle.

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Speaker 2: So that's where I got really mindful of how I

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Speaker 2: was communicating to somebody what was wrong, because if there

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Speaker 2: was fear, then I was turning up the volume on

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Speaker 2: pain signals. If we think about our house being broken

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Speaker 2: into and we didn't want it to happen again, so

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Speaker 2: we installed a super fancy alarm system, and then we

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Speaker 2: have this alarm going off all the time. That's like

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Speaker 2: saying there's a danger, you know, like we're wound up

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Speaker 2: with anxiety, we're down in shut down. But pain is

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Speaker 2: the same way. And so we have this ability, even

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Speaker 2: though it's happening in those centers outside of conscious awareness,

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Speaker 2: to bring them into awareness and work with them. And

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Speaker 2: I think that's probably what's so exciting now is knowing

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Speaker 2: that you know so much of this we can have

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Speaker 2: an influence on even if we have a history of

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Speaker 2: traumatic experiences, like it doesn't have to be the whole story,

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Speaker 2: it can be that that was a chapter and we

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Speaker 2: have the tools to change things.

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Speaker 1: That is author and physiotherapist Jessica Maguire. This is better

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Speaker 1: than yesterday, making it better every episode since twenty thirteen,

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Speaker 1: every single week. Thank you so much for being here.

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Speaker 1: My name's Osha Ginsberg. If you're new, the best way

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Speaker 1: to stay in touch and get early access to live

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Speaker 1: show tickets. There's a bunch coming up, including the triumphant

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Speaker 1: return of Story Club. Get on the substack at links

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Speaker 1: in the show notes. Oshikinsburg got substec dot com or

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Speaker 1: you can drop me an email send or her email

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Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. Jessica Maguire is my guest. The

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Speaker 1: new book that she's just written is called The Nervous

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Speaker 1: System Reset. It was fascinating speaking to her, especially on

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Speaker 1: the back of the release of the latest documentary you made,

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Speaker 1: the one about Pain. Her insights about how our body's

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Speaker 1: process pain and why it's not always about tissue damage

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Speaker 1: are really really kind of mind blowing. She breaks down

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Speaker 1: some pretty fun things. Today we talk about the Vegas

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Speaker 1: nerve neuroplasticity. She speaks of it and then ways that

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Speaker 1: actually makes sense and shares some really practical tools on

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Speaker 1: how we can all better regulate and nervous systems. Plus

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Speaker 1: we get into some fascinating stuff about how to help

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Speaker 1: kids develop these skills early on. It turns out there's

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Speaker 1: a reason why Wolfgang keeps asking me to squish him

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Speaker 1: before bedtime. Enjoy this conversation with Jessica Mawire. Thank you

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Speaker 1: so much doing this, jess How are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm really well, thank you. How are you going?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm okay. I'm in Sydney as we speak. Where

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Speaker 1: are you today? I'm in byron I swear Man. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you guys are on some sort of

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Speaker 1: commission scheme, but every time I'm speaking with me to me,

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Speaker 1: they're like, you should come. It's so good.

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Speaker 2: It is really good. We have I think most of

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Speaker 2: the people that live here now are from Sydney.

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Speaker 1: That the school's great. It's really good. It's kind of

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Speaker 1: interesting to cross paths with you today because a lot

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Speaker 1: of the stuff that you write about talk about is

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Speaker 1: stuff that I have gone through, very similar principles that

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Speaker 1: I've gone through with my mental health and stuff that

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Speaker 1: I'm now going through with movement patterns. And I find

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Speaker 1: the parallels to be incredibly interesting. But let's get to

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Speaker 1: let's get to how you got to be someone who

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Speaker 1: could do such a thing and write a book called

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Speaker 1: the Nervous System Reset. What was it that made you

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Speaker 1: want to go? You know what, physio? That's it, That's

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Speaker 1: what I want.

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Speaker 2: So I had always been interested in looking at, you know,

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Speaker 2: I guess from a bit of an athletic point of view, movement,

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Speaker 2: like I was always interested in that fairly kinesthetic in that.

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Speaker 1: Way, just for people who don't like, I speak in

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Speaker 1: this language now because I've got to communicate with people

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Speaker 1: like you all the time, so I know way too

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Speaker 1: much about anatomy. But for folks kinesthetic for people that

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Speaker 1: are familiar with that word, please.

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Speaker 2: So that's really our awareness of movements. And so I

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Speaker 2: was always interested in the senses and the sensory experience.

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Speaker 2: And then physio is a great fit in the way

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Speaker 2: that I thought I would just go in and treat

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Speaker 2: sporting injuries, you know. But what I soon discovered is

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Speaker 2: that a third of physio is that the other third

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Speaker 2: is looking at the chest and the lungs. And then

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Speaker 2: the other third of that is really neurology, so the brain,

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Speaker 2: how the spinal cord and the brain communicate, you know,

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Speaker 2: working with stroke patients, and this amazing scene called neuroplasticity,

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Speaker 2: how the brain and nervous system can change. But before that,

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Speaker 2: I was actually I did a degree before physio that

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Speaker 2: was really looking at a lot of heart rate variability,

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Speaker 2: which without knowing it, I was studying the vagus nerve

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Speaker 2: and a lot looking at the gut too, So I

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Speaker 2: guess I came from a pretty broad lens of how

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Speaker 2: I looked at things. Even as a physio, I was

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Speaker 2: still looking quite wide with.

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Speaker 1: That much science, How did you even get past Bangalo?

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Speaker 1: Like how are you even allowed into the northern rivers?

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Speaker 2: I know, right, It's it's interesting. I do like to

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Speaker 2: take in a lot of information, but I think what

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Speaker 2: I like to do is taking a lot and then

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Speaker 2: find how can I make this as simple, clear and

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Speaker 2: actionable as possible for patients? So you know, And then

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Speaker 2: I had my own experiences with this work, with the

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Speaker 2: work around the nervous system too, so it was it

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Speaker 2: was great to come in with a deep understanding of

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Speaker 2: it and to know how much it can help relieve suffering.

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Speaker 1: People ask me all day like why do you want

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Speaker 1: to make this documentary about pain? And a large for me,

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Speaker 1: a large part of it was like, well, in my

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Speaker 1: own seeking of relief for things. I started to learn

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Speaker 1: about what my pain system does and what can happen

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Speaker 1: to it when it's just been on for six months.

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Speaker 1: I was like, how do people? How do more people

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Speaker 1: not know about this? I know?

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Speaker 2: Right? And and then it's like the way that it's

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Speaker 2: been relayed for people who have chronic but persistent pain

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Speaker 2: has really been quite poor. And so then we've got

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Speaker 2: this message of like I've got an injury, it has

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Speaker 2: to be like tissue damage or it's all in your head,

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Speaker 2: you know. So there's not like this like really nice

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Speaker 2: way to educate something that's so complex. I feel like

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Speaker 2: we haven't done a good job of it as health professionals.

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Speaker 1: How do you, as a physio approach someone who is

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Speaker 1: they're coming to you for help, I don't know they

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Speaker 1: can't pick up their kids. Let's say, for example, I've

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Speaker 1: got a busted shoulder. I don't want to be able

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Speaker 1: to pick up my kids, but I can't. I can't

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Speaker 1: actually lift them. You examine the joint and go, actually,

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Speaker 1: there's nothing that I can see or feel that is wrong.

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Speaker 1: But because the accident and injury was more than six

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Speaker 1: months ago, the very movement itself is causing so much

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Speaker 1: tension and fear and catastrophization about what happens if I

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Speaker 1: do move that they're just so wound up. It's like

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Speaker 1: it's almost less physio and more psycho psychology at that point.

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Speaker 1: So how do you start to explain to someone about

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Speaker 1: what their own sense, the relationship to that sensation does

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Speaker 1: to the joint in question.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really good question. I would start personally

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Speaker 2: looking at the in the examination processes, at the biological, psychological,

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Speaker 2: and social factors. So we say pain is a biopsychosocial

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Speaker 2: event or experience, which means like, yeah, there's the biological factors,

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Speaker 2: which could be inflammation or the initial injury, it could

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Speaker 2: be faulty movement patterns. And then the psychological factors that

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Speaker 2: are in place are definitely like beliefs, expectations, the language

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Speaker 2: we use. And then the social is what else is

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Speaker 2: going on in somebody's life. So you know, we might

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Speaker 2: look at somebody who was really fit and healthy and

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Speaker 2: then they started to experience challenges in the where they

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Speaker 2: were living and the cost of living got really high.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it's impacted on their work, and those social factors

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Speaker 2: will contribute to pain. The second thing that I've loved

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Speaker 2: to teach people with. The education component is that pain

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Speaker 2: isn't linear and pain doesn't always equal tissue damage. So

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Speaker 2: if you look at somebody who's going through an initiation ceremony,

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Speaker 2: they can have no pain. You know, they can have

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Speaker 2: tissue damage. They might do something that you know damages

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Speaker 2: that tissue, but you know they say, oh, it didn't

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Speaker 2: actually hurt. There was like a different experience with that.

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Speaker 2: Like I love time massages, you know, I love when

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Speaker 2: they get up on my back and walk on my

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Speaker 2: back and it's like all that pain. But imagine if

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Speaker 2: that experience was at nighttime and I was walking home

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Speaker 2: by myself and somebody did exactly the same thing, it

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Speaker 2: would be a completely different experience. So the threat part

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Speaker 2: of this is really important, and this is where it

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Speaker 2: ties in with the nervous system of like how do

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Speaker 2: we perceive that or how does and a lot of

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Speaker 2: that's outside of conscious awareness that we detected as a threat.

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Speaker 2: And so basically we can say, well, pain is actually

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Speaker 2: a alarm system if you like. That is there to

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Speaker 2: notify us that something could be wrong and get our attention.

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Speaker 2: And that's a great thing. But when when we have

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Speaker 2: a persistent pain that keeps going on and on despite

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Speaker 2: the initial injury happening per se from the start. It's

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Speaker 2: most likely related to a process of neuroplasticity, where in

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Speaker 2: a way, our brain, our spinal cord, and the receptors

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Speaker 2: have gotten better, have turned up the volume on pain

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Speaker 2: signals to tell us faster, like yeah, this is here,

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Speaker 2: this is a threat, And what part of our work

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Speaker 2: is is basically to turn the volume back down on

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Speaker 2: those signals.

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Speaker 1: It was very difficult for me to accept that some

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Speaker 1: note some of the pain that I was experiencing was

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Speaker 1: in my head. I mean, I watched as my doctor

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Speaker 1: and the radiologists pointed at the latual fermi or contaneous

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Speaker 1: nerve and when it's perfectly fine, nothing wrong with it.

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Speaker 1: It took about two or three days for me to

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Speaker 1: accept that part of what I was feeling was being

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Speaker 1: invented in my head because I so wanted it to

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Speaker 1: be something else. I so wanted it to not be me.

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Speaker 1: I wanted I don't want if I wanted something to

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Speaker 1: someone to blame it on, or like a reason that

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Speaker 1: wasn't me for why I wasn't so much pain. Yet,

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Speaker 1: once I did come to that, acceptance and I was

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Speaker 1: working with a pains like at the time, Oh, there's

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Speaker 1: ways that I can make this better, just me. I

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Speaker 1: don't need a drug to do it. And that now

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Speaker 1: it was empowering, but that was that was like a

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Speaker 1: light year of space to make that leap.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's hard, isn't it, because we're so used to

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Speaker 2: thinking my shoulder hurts, it's a shoulder problem. But we

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Speaker 2: don't have pain without our brain processing it. And I

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Speaker 2: think even when I was at Union's studying this, I

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Speaker 2: was like, this is so complex and that it's like

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Speaker 2: against what we know. And I think that that is

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Speaker 2: a challenge for health practitioners to educate people because it's

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Speaker 2: a complex thing, you know, and it's not like we

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Speaker 2: like black and white, we like simple. We like to say,

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Speaker 2: you know, this is back pain that must have a

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Speaker 2: slip disc. And even if you think about that, right,

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Speaker 2: like your belief around what's going on, say it's a

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Speaker 2: low back pain and a slip disc makes it sounds

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Speaker 2: sound like our discs are like a bar of soaps

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Speaker 2: that can just go out and you know, fly out somewhere.

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Speaker 2: But when we look structurally at it, there's some really

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Speaker 2: thick ligaments in place holding those discs and they're not

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Speaker 2: really moving back that far. So I think as well,

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Speaker 2: that belief of the language of this is what's wrong.

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Speaker 2: That's the amplification of pain. And you know, we see

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Speaker 2: it with a placebo like we talk about the place

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Speaker 2: Ebo effect and how that changes our immune system, anxiety, sleep,

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Speaker 2: fatigue levels, pain. It's definitely hard though, to say, ah,

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Speaker 2: there's part of this that's in my head, and I

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Speaker 2: don't think that's even I think for a lot of

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Speaker 2: people it's not always a super helpful framework if we

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Speaker 2: say this is in your head. I think it's actually

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Speaker 2: more helpful if we say the communication between your brain

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Speaker 2: and body. You know, it's more the signals. Otherwise we think, well,

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Speaker 2: it's just my brain has got a problem. It's really

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Speaker 2: you know, a lot of things around more signaling and

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Speaker 2: communication between the two.

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Speaker 1: One of the things I learned as well was, and

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Speaker 1: I mentioned it earlier, with the catastrophization and not only that,

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Speaker 1: catastrophizing about and then in many ways, I'm very lucky

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Speaker 1: that I have the brain that I've got. You know

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Speaker 1: that one of my psychiatrists explained to me that I

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Speaker 1: have two time zones. I have now and not now.

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Speaker 1: That's it. And what is lucky is that I would

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Speaker 1: wake up and forget how much it hurt yesterday and

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Speaker 1: then wouldn't worry about what it was going to feel

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Speaker 1: like today. You know, I wasn't. I was got really

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Speaker 1: lucky with that. But then I'd forget how much it

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Speaker 1: hurt the day before, like I should really do something

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Speaker 1: about this. This has been three months where it feels like,

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Speaker 1: you know, that was the problem. However, I also learned

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Speaker 1: that a care is catastrophizing. For example, over a child

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Speaker 1: can increase the pain of the child, and that is

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Speaker 1: just staggering. And so you know, in relation to the

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Speaker 1: work that you do, you know, when you're trying to

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Speaker 1: manage caring for someone, or you know when you're trying

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Speaker 1: to you know, there's a lot going on. And you

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Speaker 1: mentioned the social aspect of pain and discomfort earlier. What

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Speaker 1: are some ways of trying to stay calm and stay

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Speaker 1: centered when you're trying to handle hopefully not a kid

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Speaker 1: in pain, but even just the stuff going on around

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Speaker 1: your career, your house, school, pickup, not enough week big

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Speaker 1: so my god, we need to know the lawn, what's

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Speaker 1: that like?

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Speaker 2: All that stuff yeah, it's a good question, and I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, for a health profession I've been really aware

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Speaker 2: of the language that I use with people. There were

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Speaker 2: some good research that showed the number one predictor of

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Speaker 2: how much disability somebody would have with lower back pain

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Speaker 2: was really related to their belief of what was wrong

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Speaker 2: at the start. And so for a lot of old

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Speaker 2: school health pros, they've gone in and they said, right,

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Speaker 2: we'll send you off to get an MRIV you lovel back,

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Speaker 2: and the person has walked back into the GP and

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Speaker 2: they've said, well, you've got a spine of a seventy

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Speaker 2: year old. This is stuff my patients were telling me.

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Speaker 2: You know, you've got disc degeneration and all these things,

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Speaker 2: which really they're like having a gray hair, they're like

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Speaker 2: having a wrinkle. So you know, we've seen that with

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Speaker 2: a lot of imaging of the lower back. It's across

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Speaker 2: the population where there are you know, signs of normal

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Speaker 2: aging if you like. And so that's where I got

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Speaker 2: really mindful of how I was communicating to somebody what

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Speaker 2: was wrong, because if there was fear, then I was

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Speaker 2: turning up the volume on pain signals. So that got

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Speaker 2: me really interested in the work of the nervous system

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Speaker 2: in terms of the autonomic nervous system, which is our

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Speaker 2: inner surveillance system. And I learned that through a heightened

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Speaker 2: nervous system where we're either fight or flight or freeze

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Speaker 2: and shutdown, we can be experiencing greater pain because of

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Speaker 2: how closely this system speaks to every system, like our

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Speaker 2: immune system. It can heighten inflammation, the endocrine system, it

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Speaker 2: can create changes there. So I went deep into the

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Speaker 2: work of the autonomic nervous system to be like, well,

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Speaker 2: how can I help people turn down this protective threat system?

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Speaker 2: And that is really like where we're looking app that

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Speaker 2: we're seeing this amplification carried largely out, and so what

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Speaker 2: people can look at is like one portal that's really

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Speaker 2: helpful for managing pain is nervous system regulation. The other

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Speaker 2: part of this is to probably look at the concept

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Speaker 2: if we're speaking specifically to chronic and persistent pain of

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Speaker 2: pacing or activity pacing, and this is where we would

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Speaker 2: look at in a given time, can if you know,

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Speaker 2: we've got busy lives, kids, work, like, there's physical demands,

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Speaker 2: there's things we have to do, and then there's probably

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Speaker 2: things we'd like to do and sometimes that means having

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Speaker 2: a list of like, well, these are all the things

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Speaker 2: that I have to get done, these are all the

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Speaker 2: things I'd like to get done, and how we structure that.

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Speaker 2: So I would say that people with persistent pain probably

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Speaker 2: find they struggle the most when they're feeling like where

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Speaker 2: you said you weren't remembering, and then they get really

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Speaker 2: excited and do heaps and then the next day they

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Speaker 2: have a flare. Absolutely, that's when I see a lot

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Speaker 2: of happen.

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Speaker 1: So when it comes to like we've spoken a fair

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Speaker 1: bit about pain, but you know, regardless, as you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: stress for long enough is bad for you. It's slug

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Speaker 1: smoking cigarettes. Really it can over time, it can really

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Speaker 1: mess you up. It can give you You can affect

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Speaker 1: your heart, it can affect everything.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: We're lucky though, because sometimes when I'm going on stage

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Speaker 1: and I talk about mental health in the workplace, I

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Speaker 1: show a video of a chicken getting hypnotized. We like

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Speaker 1: to think we're all smart and stuff, but we can

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Speaker 1: just do things with our bodies deliberately that will turn

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Speaker 1: on relaxation reflexes like that, and it's and it's skills

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Speaker 1: that I see them now teaching my youngest son stuff

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Speaker 1: that I never knew though as a kid. What are

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Speaker 1: your you know, I don't know. What are your go

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Speaker 1: to is? If people find themselves getting a bit out

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Speaker 1: of that window themselves a bit a bit up my

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Speaker 1: andwer a bit shaking. My heart's running. I think I

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Speaker 1: yelled the last three things I just said, I need

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Speaker 1: to downregulate a bit. What are your kind of go

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Speaker 1: to is when it comes to trying to downregulate?

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Speaker 2: It's a really good question, and I think I love

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Speaker 2: how you've already worded it. We downregulate, so it gives

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Speaker 2: the clue that, you know, if we are up regulated,

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Speaker 2: there's like a mobilization. We've got too much energy in

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Speaker 2: our system. And one thing I think that's really interesting,

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Speaker 2: And you know, there's like this little bit of a

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Speaker 2: lie from the wellness industry around being.

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Speaker 1: Calm, a lie from the wellness industry.

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Speaker 2: They they've kicked us on into thinking we should be

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Speaker 2: calm all the time.

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Speaker 1: But what I bought a linen shirt? Why isn't everything okay?

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Speaker 2: You're talking about to someone from the by and By region, Remember,

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Speaker 2: Linen's the thing. But if we look at this in

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Speaker 2: terms of how we experience a range of emotions or

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00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:11,040
Speaker 2: sensations in that state where we're upregulated, it's typically fight

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Speaker 2: energy or flight energy. And so if it's fight energy,

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Speaker 2: I typically see people struggle to contain fight energy because

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Speaker 2: we have this thing that we think that anger is

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Speaker 2: bad or wrong. We're not a spiritual person if we

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Speaker 2: get angry. But really it's allowing fight energy to come

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Speaker 2: in and express it in our body in a way

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Speaker 2: that can actually, if it's channel right, really help us

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Speaker 2: have strength and agency and mastery and set boundaries and

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Speaker 2: stand up for ourselves. And I think for a lot

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Speaker 2: of the time we're pushing it down before it gets

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Speaker 2: a chance to come in. But I think for the

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Speaker 2: if you look at the natural response of how fight

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Speaker 2: energy wants to come through and express itself, we will

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Speaker 2: feel a contraction of our muffle, so right, there will

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Speaker 2: actually be this. So sometimes it's as simple as allowing

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Speaker 2: our body to come into contraction through the wrists, the hands,

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Speaker 2: the arms, really the shoulders where that strong energy is,

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Speaker 2: letting it be activated rather than trying to calm it down, like, okay,

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Speaker 2: this is how it wants to express And for a

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Speaker 2: lot of the people that I work with, that is

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Speaker 2: the fastest way to regulation rather than a you know,

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Speaker 2: I shouldn't be feeling this way, and that's like, well, okay,

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Speaker 2: this is anger. Now how do I want to let

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Speaker 2: it move through? And what does it want? What does

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Speaker 2: it want to do?

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Speaker 1: That's so interesting. It sounds very similar to some work

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Speaker 1: I did with a trauma therapist where she would get

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Speaker 1: me to do just that. We would recall, you know,

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Speaker 1: things were not fun. I like, for example, if one

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Speaker 1: thing I wanted to run, she would get me to

395
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Speaker 1: do stuff with my legs. If there was one thing

396
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Speaker 1: I wanted to gouge people's eyes out, she had me

397
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Speaker 1: shove my face into a Swiss ball. And it was

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Speaker 1: almost like one body was like, Okay, we're done here.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly it. Because we're working with a part of

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Speaker 2: the brain that doesn't have a concept of time, and

401
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Speaker 2: it stores these memories as an implicit response, or what

402
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,880
Speaker 2: we would say in phy zero terms, as a procedural memory,

403
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Speaker 2: which is like say you know how to get up

404
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 2: and surf. You've like got step one, push up, stand up,

405
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Speaker 2: you know, move your feet and it becomes automated. It's

406
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Speaker 2: stored in your brain. You don't have to think about

407
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Speaker 2: it consciously. We store nervous system patterns in the same

408
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Speaker 2: way in this implicit memory system. So we can't talk

409
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Speaker 2: our way out of that trauma response. We can't talk

410
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Speaker 2: our nervous system into feeling safe. We need to experience

411
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Speaker 2: safety in our body or allow that activation that once

412
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Speaker 2: came up from an event to play out how it

413
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Speaker 2: needs to, because otherwise the survival brain, which is the

414
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Speaker 2: part of the brain that today will say something is safe, dangerous,

415
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Speaker 2: or life threatening, will continue to think that that experience

416
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Speaker 2: is going on. It has no concept of time, almost

417
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Speaker 2: like what you said before. So if we let it,

418
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Speaker 2: if we say, okay, body express it how you want to.

419
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Speaker 2: Like I think about this with grief so much right,

420
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Speaker 2: we've made grief a very cognitive experience when it's actually

421
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Speaker 2: very primal. Until we let the body express how it

422
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Speaker 2: needs to, we stay stuck. And that's where we see

423
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Speaker 2: things like anxiety, depression, anger, despair. So what your therapist

424
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Speaker 2: is doing if we can, if we do come back

425
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Speaker 2: to an implicit memory, then we let the survival brain

426
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Speaker 2: play it out in our body and nervous system, and

427
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,399
Speaker 2: it completes this stress activation cycle from the past, and

428
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Speaker 2: it's gone.

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Speaker 1: It seems too simple and it seemed too simple until

430
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Speaker 1: it happened to me and I was like, oh, okay, well,

431
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Speaker 1: I'm glad I came. Where does breathing play a role

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Speaker 1: in helping us get more regulated and have access to

433
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:14,719
Speaker 1: a bit more bandwidth when it comes to making good

434
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 1: choices in a moment.

435
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, breath it can be super useful. You know, we

436
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 2: can use a longer breath. There's there's various variations we

437
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 2: can use of that. You know, I work a lot

438
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 2: with teaching now health practitioners how to deliver nervous system

439
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 2: informed care, like a little bit like you're talking about

440
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:40,199
Speaker 2: with the person you worked with, and it's good. But

441
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 2: I don't think it's where we should start with trauma.

442
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 2: I think it's been probably generalized that everyone should do

443
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,159
Speaker 2: breath work, but the breath can be really triggering for

444
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 2: a lot of people, particularly who you know, froze in

445
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 2: the moment of experiencing something. So I would start with

446
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 2: more cultivating more safety first. If we look looking for

447
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,920
Speaker 2: this through the lens of trauma, you know, if it's

448
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 2: for we're feeling pretty grounded and resourced, there can be

449
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 2: great you know, it can improve heart rate variability, which

450
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 2: is the measure of the vagus nerves functioning. And we

451
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 2: know that high heart rate variability or high vagual tone

452
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 2: is correlated with better psychological and physical health, so we

453
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 2: can look at it as a matched in breath and

454
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 2: out breath than both of those are quite long, and

455
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 2: then if we extend the exhalation, we can see we're

456
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,919
Speaker 2: bringing more of a slowing down of our physiology. But

457
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 2: just to be mindful, for some people, they are already

458
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 2: too slow and to shut down or burnt out or exhausted,

459
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 2: so they probably would be better not using that breath pattern.

460
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 2: So the key is really specificity of what state are

461
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 2: we in to what we need?

462
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 1: What about I don't know, Let's say I mean our

463
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 1: guessing I m ask for from someone that's anxiety has

464
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 1: been a part of my adventures to the point where

465
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: it gets too much and then it ends the depression

466
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 1: and then you know, you just to shut down. So

467
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 1: I generally, if I'm going anywhere, I'm spending time on

468
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 1: the higher side of things, and that does limit my

469
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 1: choices of response and the limit my ability to get

470
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 1: in the way between the stimulus and response. Things can

471
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: flow out of my mouth too quick where it happens

472
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 1: to all of us. So in those say, for example,

473
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: what are some ways like if we're losing it at

474
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 1: the kids or whatever, what are some ways that you

475
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 1: can help yourself get a little more together without anybody knowing. Ah,

476
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 1: dad's doing the breathing thing again.

477
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, for sure. So the body is sensory,

478
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 2: like what's happening that sensory information. This is really linked

479
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 2: with persistent pain too. So if you think about the

480
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 2: brain being in the dark in the skull, it's a

481
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 2: little bit like being in a box and it doesn't

482
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 2: actually know what's happening so well, but it relies on

483
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 2: the body's holistic response to tell it how it is.

484
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 2: You know, we're very top down centric. We're very about mindset,

485
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 2: think more positive, which can have its place that I'm

486
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 2: not downplaying that at all. But in the time when

487
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 2: we are super heightened, it doesn't work for us so well.

488
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 2: So what we need is to look at, well, how

489
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 2: can I change the sensory information from my body traveling

490
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 2: upwards to my brain and we are sending signals to

491
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 2: the brain, hey, you're good down here, and that will

492
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 2: settle down our experience the quickest. So in the heat

493
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 2: of the moment, we want to connect with more the

494
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 2: information on the outside of our body, because what's inside

495
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 2: can feel so overwhelming. So we call that our exter

496
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 2: receptive information. And as you're sitting here now or should

497
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 2: you might think, well, okay, I'm feeling pretty charged. But

498
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 2: if I was to feel the sense that my chair

499
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 2: was really supporting my wage, and I paid attention to

500
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 2: the outside of my skin, like the backs of my legs,

501
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 2: the base of my pelvis, and I let my body,

502
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 2: particularly when we're heightened, if we can let the body

503
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 2: settle into the chair more and we send that message

504
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 2: to the brain. So we need to come back and

505
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 2: notice it again. And we start to notice as well

506
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 2: with that a feeling of stability, steadiness, and a settling

507
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 2: our survival brain starts to go, oh, that must all

508
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 2: be okay down there, because all I'm getting is a

509
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 2: message of steadiness and stability. And often the outside of

510
00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 2: the body is less activating than say the breast, where

511
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 2: we might notice air hunger, and we will paying attention

512
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 2: to air hunger, and the brain's getting a message of

513
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 2: air hunger, it just ramps up the amplification. So we

514
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 2: need to find these places in our sensory information that

515
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 2: is safe and send that message upwards to the survival brain.

516
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: We need to play some ads. We'll be back right

517
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: up this. These things can be useful in the moment

518
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 1: when you're in a peak. But what are some things

519
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: or some practical ways that we can work whatever it

520
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 1: is into our day to day. You know, for example,

521
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: on your guy and whenever he walks through a doorway,

522
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: he did ten push ups, all right, so it was

523
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: just this is my trigger, this is what I'll get

524
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: my stuff done during the day. He ended up at

525
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 1: the end of the day, you know, doing eight hundred

526
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 1: push ups or whatever like. But that's how he it's

527
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: what he did. So what's something that we might be

528
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 1: able to hang on some sort of action in add

529
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 1: to make sure that this stuff just happens. We don't

530
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 1: have to think about it or we stay ready. So

531
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 1: we have to get ready.

532
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 2: I think the biggest thing is to be able to

533
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 2: build something that we call inter reception, and this is

534
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 2: our ability to read our bodily signals. And so for

535
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 2: people who tend to be more on the flatter side,

536
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 2: the depressed side, there's research showing that it's harder for

537
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 2: them to notice bodily signals. And then people who are

538
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 2: more on the anxious and wound up side, and this

539
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 2: is linked now with persistent pain inter reception, we know

540
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 2: that their accuracy isn't so good at reading bodily signals.

541
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 2: It immediately is detected as a threat. So what we

542
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 2: want to do is like check in with our body often,

543
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 2: and so for a lot of people who tend to

544
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 2: be disconnected from their body, it can mean that you

545
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 2: might set an alarm on your phone three times a day.

546
00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 2: That's like, hey, check in. Like neurodivergent individuals will certainly

547
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 2: be able to say, oh, yeah, that's me, I miscues

548
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 2: of hunger and then I get angry, Like that's all

549
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 2: impacting on the nervous system and our physiology and how

550
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 2: we feel. So it can be as simple as that.

551
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 2: But if we're looking at the foundation of emotional regulation,

552
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 2: it is tuning into bodily signals because it's two or

553
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 2: more bodily signals that make up an emotion. You know,

554
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 2: there's not one spot in our brain where our emotions are.

555
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 2: It's like it's coming from the bodily signals, creating a

556
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 2: whole brain experience, which then feeds down into what happens

557
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 2: physiologically in our body. So it's like a continual feedback loop,

558
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 2: you know, like a figure of eight. So the more

559
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 2: you can tune in and be like, oh, it could

560
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 2: be as simple as like I'm working all day like this,

561
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 2: it's gotta go faster, got to do more, got to

562
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 2: go faster, and there's like no connection to my tight shoulder.

563
00:32:57,840 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. So just for people who are listening, you're sitting

564
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 1: with you shoulders forward, you're hunched forward. You know, it

565
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 1: looks like you're trying to touch the front part of

566
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: your shoulder, your shoulders together in front of your chin exactly.

567
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: I've certainly been like that, you know, when I was

568
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: really worked up.

569
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 2: Yes, we know that when we're more wound up, we

570
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 2: are going to be less connected to our bodily experiences

571
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 2: or if we are noticing them, they're amplified. Like we said,

572
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 2: we paid it. It's a really similar experience with that

573
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 2: anxiety or hypervigilance and the amplification of pain signals. It's

574
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 2: just different networks going up to the brain. And that's

575
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 2: why I find this crossover so fascinating. And really it's

576
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 2: now when the science is all leaning into this process

577
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 2: of how the brain and body communicate with each other.

578
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 1: So just through the day, as you mentioned, like setting

579
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 1: an alarm on your phone and just noticing where your body.

580
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 2: Is, and it's like as simple as oh my gosh,

581
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 2: I've been sitting here with my shoulders up. Like that's

582
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 2: going to feed into the survival brain. It's checking in

583
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 2: with the breath and being like, oh wow, I'm really

584
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 2: like you know, if you look at people in their

585
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:17,359
Speaker 2: upper chest breathing and it's like they're just breathing up here.

586
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 2: You can hear it sometimes in people's voice and you

587
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 2: see all the muscles in their neck tightened up, so

588
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 2: the breath coming back down again is another way. If

589
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 2: we looked at the research that was done on there

590
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 2: was day traders in London who were they were looking

591
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 2: at who was successful or more successful, and it was

592
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 2: tying into making these big decisions on trades. And the

593
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 2: traders were talking about.

594
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 1: We're talking about stock exchange. We're talking about people who

595
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 1: are making a choice, making a decision based on available data,

596
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 1: a very time critical decision that can either make or

597
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 1: lose millions and millions.

598
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 2: Of dollars exactly. And those who listen to their bodily

599
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 2: signals accurately. You know, it wasn't like completely oh yeah,

600
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 2: I rationally chose this decision. We're more successful, and so

601
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 2: there is this linking to our values, our decisions, like

602
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 2: trusting the signals that we're having going on inside of us.

603
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 2: The tricky part is deciphering that from what is a trigger?

604
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 2: You know, like today and say, wow, I feel like

605
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 2: a trigger will be a much louder, overwhelming signal than

606
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 2: say listening to a quiet intuitive signal. But when we

607
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 2: can check in you know, whether it's through the alarm

608
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 2: or whether it's we say, like habit stacking like you're saying,

609
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 2: of if I do after my teeth brushing a time

610
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 2: around like okay, what state am I in? And this

611
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 2: can be as simple as I'm in the middle regulated

612
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 2: like what you're saying with the window of tolerance, or

613
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 2: I'm in hyper arousal or I'm in hypo arousal. You know,

614
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 2: really noticing that from an embody like through the body,

615
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 2: rather than trying to be too cognitive, that in itself

616
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 2: is making us our intercept do signals clearer and more accurate.

617
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:24,320
Speaker 2: So tying it into simple things that we do every day.

618
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 1: After I got divorced, there was a really clever fellow

619
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 1: that I spoke with. He is a kind of life coach,

620
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 1: mental kind of guy, a really interesting guy, and he

621
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 1: told me about exactly what you're talking about. He said,

622
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 1: just literally just walk with your head facing up. Walk

623
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 1: with your head high. I literally walk with your head

624
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:43,800
Speaker 1: high on like twenty men. He goes, your brain doesn't

625
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 1: know where it is, and if your head's high, that's

626
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 1: a signal that things are okay, and your brain will

627
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 1: be like, okay, things are okay. I said, is that

628
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 1: because yes, that's simple. I couldn't believe it. But it's

629
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 1: fascinating hearing this kind of stuff, and I'm so grateful

630
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 1: that we know this stuff now that yeah, choices we

631
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 1: not realize that we're making about our posture and the

632
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 1: way we stand can unwittingly, unwillingly sell send signals that

633
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 1: end up give us an experience of discomfort and emotionally difficult.

634
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 1: You know, things that should be easy become difficult emotionally

635
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: because we're now in these tightened states we don't really

636
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 1: need to be in. You mentioned being down before. Sometimes.

637
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 1: I mean I spoke with my cardiologist A couple of

638
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,360
Speaker 1: months back, and it took a minute, but I'm just

639
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 1: down to one double espresso a day, which is great. Man, Like,

640
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:42,239
Speaker 1: I don't do any drugs that aren't prescribed, and caffeine

641
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: was what you'd be able to pry out of my

642
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:49,280
Speaker 1: cold dead hands. However, it is definitely something that people

643
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 1: reach for, whether a cup of tea at four in

644
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 1: the afternoon or you know, an extra shot of this

645
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 1: or that or the other. But ultimately, what cafee caffeine's

646
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 1: doing is just borrowing. What's the one worrying for Beter

647
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 1: to PayPal is like borrowing something out of your body

648
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 1: to use it in the moment, but then eventually it's

649
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: going to it's going to come back down again. So

650
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 1: what are some ways that if we need to like

651
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 1: we've talked a lot about down regulating, if there are

652
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,359
Speaker 1: ways that we need to lift, what are some ways

653
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 1: that we can do that without you know, putting unnecessary

654
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 1: stress on our adrenal system.

655
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 2: I love what you just said because we talk about

656
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 2: this as the artificial window of tolerance where people like

657
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 2: come into this pseudo state, which is like a band.

658
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,760
Speaker 2: We're not really going into the window, but for people

659
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 2: who are shut down they'll often do it through exactly

660
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 2: what you said, caffeine, stimulants, drugs, porn, video gaming, horror

661
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 2: movies like anything that gets that adrenaline system pumped up.

662
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 2: But it's not true regulation. I mean it can go

663
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 2: the other way as well, from the wound up state,

664
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 2: typically alcohol, you know, getting lost on social media because

665
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 2: it is a distraction, it brings us down, but it

666
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 2: doesn't it's not the same as regulation. It's not a

667
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 2: true refuge. It's more a false way of feeling different.

668
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 2: But what it means is we've got to say, well,

669
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 2: what's my true need underneath that? Like we look at

670
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 2: the behavior as being like, oh, it's an addiction, and

671
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 2: it can be, but it's also looking at well, what

672
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 2: is the true need underneath that behavior that I need

673
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 2: to change? And so for people who were down regulated,

674
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 2: we can see a lot in that state that could

675
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 2: be going on. So it could be like a shutdown collapse,

676
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 2: which is related to you touched on this before when

677
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,320
Speaker 2: you said you were like heightened for a long time

678
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:44,360
Speaker 2: and then crash down into that more of a shutdown,

679
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 2: and so it can be physiologically there's been a depletion

680
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 2: of that sympathetic energy, and there's definitely a lot of

681
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 2: the vagus nerves regulating energy. So one of the things

682
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,359
Speaker 2: that we can look at is we we want to

683
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 2: upregulate the nervous system in a safe way. And now

684
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 2: this sounds a little bit curious, but I think play

685
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,439
Speaker 2: is one of the best things that we can use

686
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:16,359
Speaker 2: for our nervous system. So it's more the play that

687
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 2: we use with other people. That's where we feel safe

688
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 2: and we can mobilize energy safely. So for me, that

689
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 2: is like on the weekend we took our daughter surfing

690
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 2: and hurt giggling and a play my husband and I

691
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 2: in the water. That's that's definitely a feeling of play.

692
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 2: But I would say it's a very subjective experience, you know,

693
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 2: like it will feel different for other people. But how

694
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 2: do you mobilize energy safely? You know, it can be karaoke,

695
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,959
Speaker 2: going to a comedy show. And often when we're in

696
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:55,760
Speaker 2: that state, the narrative is that we don't belong, we're alone.

697
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 2: We're like, you know, shut off in a cold dark

698
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 2: room by ourselves, and so we will isolate. But if

699
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:07,320
Speaker 2: we look at the antidote to shame, which also maps

700
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 2: down into that state, it's belonging. So if we can

701
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 2: bring ourselves to get past the narrative that comes from

702
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 2: this state. If I don't belong and connect with other

703
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:24,720
Speaker 2: people doing something that mobilizes us, that will upregulate us.

704
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:26,760
Speaker 2: If we're not at the place where we can talk.

705
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 2: It can be just going to a location where other

706
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 2: people are, So that could be a park, a beach,

707
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 2: a shopping center, just a cafe. You don't have to talk.

708
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 2: This isn't about telling your story. It's about changing your physiology,

709
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 2: and all of that can up regulate you because we

710
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 2: are wired to feel a belonging through being around our community.

711
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,359
Speaker 1: You would never know that, you know, you have this

712
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: bachelor health science that a master is physiotherapy. Because the

713
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,279
Speaker 1: stuff you're talking about is the kind of stuff I've

714
00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 1: spoken about with so many sights. But the crossover is

715
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 1: something I've been starting to notice very recently. This is

716
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 1: the stuff that really, it really gave me personally a lot,

717
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 1: a lot of relief and a lot of freedom, you know,

718
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: and still now, I mean, you know, I'm like two

719
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 1: or three out of ten most days of discomfort. I

720
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 1: don't really call it pain, but it's okay. You know,

721
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: I've got room. I can have it. It sucks if

722
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 1: I let it, but I've got enough room for it

723
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 1: to suck and to roll around on jiu jitsumat with

724
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:35,799
Speaker 1: my son. You know, I can have both, And but

725
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,359
Speaker 1: you can't do that if you don't, if you aren't

726
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 1: able to like make the space for it, you kind

727
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 1: of have to kind of make the space for it.

728
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: It's a lot to try, but I'm lucky, you know,

729
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 1: I've got years of speaking with people and being diagnosed

730
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 1: with this and that, learning how to get better before

731
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 1: this happened to me. Like if I had gone from

732
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 1: nothing to this, I would be I would struggle to

733
00:42:57,680 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 1: hear some of the stuff you're trying to tell me.

734
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:03,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, it can be really challenging without context, but also

735
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 2: without it feeling like it's you know, wishy washy when

736
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 2: you have a lot of pain. And I think this

737
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 2: is because we haven't joined the dots so well with

738
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 2: you know, connecting the systems. We've sort of said, well,

739
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 2: the body's here, the brain's here, And like what I

740
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 2: think about when I was a physio of going, well,

741
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:26,839
Speaker 2: I treat the body, it's a brain problem. I'm going

742
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 2: to say this to any health pros if you're working

743
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 2: with people, you are counseling them like, it's not okay

744
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 2: now to go oh well, I don't deal with that,

745
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,479
Speaker 2: and as well with you know, from the psych point

746
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:42,879
Speaker 2: of view, if you're saying, well, I work with the brain, Well,

747
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,320
Speaker 2: if you're working with trauma, you're working with the body.

748
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 2: So there's a step up now that heals practitioners I

749
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 2: believe need to take to work that intersectionality exactly what

750
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:57,879
Speaker 2: you're saying. And also, oh, I've just wanted to say

751
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 2: how much courage it takes to keep doing that work.

752
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,760
Speaker 2: So you know you've really owned that, and I think

753
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 2: it's it's hard if you're not proactive in getting the

754
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 2: help that you need.

755
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 1: I think that's thank you for saying thank you for

756
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 1: saying so. But it did get to the point where

757
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 1: that was the only option. And this is, you know,

758
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 1: change only happens when the fear of change is smaller

759
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:32,319
Speaker 1: than the pain of staying the same. That's what drives it.

760
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 1: That's with anything really like and if it is connecting

761
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:39,359
Speaker 1: with your values, and particularly when we're talking, you know,

762
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:41,839
Speaker 1: speaking with you, we're talking about wanting to be able

763
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 1: to move well and be able to stay regulated to

764
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 1: a point where you may really want to connect with someone.

765
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:50,720
Speaker 1: You may really want to but there's some stuff about

766
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 1: them that you don't realize is reminding you of someone

767
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 1: that there's got nothing to do with them. But when

768
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 1: so when you speak to them, you're a fucking puffer

769
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 1: fish and you're spiky and nasty, and then you don't

770
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,760
Speaker 1: understand why they don't want to come, and you're like, ah,

771
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 1: what's going on here? You know, it's so important, you know,

772
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 1: to be aware of what happens when we get just

773
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 1: regulated and how we can move into choices we may

774
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:18,240
Speaker 1: not realize don't belong in this moment, but it's simply

775
00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 1: our body trying to keep us safe, exactly.

776
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 2: And I think you've really nailed it with that process

777
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 2: of how we move between the different states that we

778
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 2: call neuroception. It's happening outside of conscious awareness. You know,

779
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 2: we don't know what's happening, and it's influenced by our

780
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 2: past experiences. And this is like the same with pain.

781
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 2: It has the same thing. If we think about our

782
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 2: house being broken into and we didn't want it to

783
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:50,240
Speaker 2: happen again, so we installed a super fancy alarm system

784
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 2: and then we have this alarm going off all the time.

785
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 2: That's like saying there's a danger, you know, like we're

786
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 2: wound up with anxiety, we're down in shut down. But

787
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 2: pain is the same way. And so we have this ability,

788
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 2: even though it's happening in those centers outside of conscious awareness,

789
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 2: to bring them into awareness and work with them. And

790
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 2: I think that's probably what's so exciting now is knowing

791
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 2: that you know so much of this we can have

792
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:23,359
Speaker 2: an influence on Even if we have a history of

793
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:30,360
Speaker 2: traumatic experiences like developmental trauma. We have seen from the

794
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 2: orphanages in Romania that they had better outcomes once they

795
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 2: got the right connection and the right adopted families. Like

796
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 2: it's it doesn't have to be the whole story. It

797
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 2: can be that that was a chapter and we have

798
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 2: the tools to change things.

799
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 1: It's very hard to hear you say the sentence without

800
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:51,279
Speaker 1: seeing that. I remember the footage of those kids that

801
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:54,399
Speaker 1: are just sitting on the floor and happies. Yeah, there's

802
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 1: nobody holding them, nobody touching them, and just this thousand

803
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 1: yards staring every one of them. There was horror, horrible, horrible,

804
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 1: horrible stuff. We keep mentioning this thing. The Vegas nerve.

805
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 1: What is it that the vagus nerve does in our body?

806
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 2: If you ran your hand down the back of your

807
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:12,799
Speaker 2: head and you feel that bony ridge, and we know

808
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 2: that's where the brain stem starts, so it comes down today,

809
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 2: it's got a branch to the heart, and then it's

810
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 2: got a branch that runs all the way down to

811
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 2: the coalon. So the branch to the heart is like

812
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 2: the break that will regulate our emotions and physiology. It's

813
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:28,840
Speaker 2: a bit like if you ride a bicycle downhill, it

814
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,360
Speaker 2: keeps enough for that breaking gauge so you don't go

815
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 2: too fast. And then the branch from the brain to

816
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 2: our gut is regulating all of our organs. And this

817
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 2: is why we see that link between pain and inflammation,

818
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:49,839
Speaker 2: because you know, if we are in this regulation for

819
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 2: a long time, the vegas nerve gets interrupted from its

820
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:57,800
Speaker 2: job of regulating our organs. But in that process it

821
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 2: actually controls the level of formation in our body. And

822
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 2: so if we are always anxious, then the vegas nerves interrupted,

823
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,880
Speaker 2: then it's more likely that we can have higher levels

824
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:16,320
Speaker 2: of information. That's one portal to persistent pain. So most

825
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 2: of that signaling of the vegas nerve is actually running

826
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 2: from the body up to the brain, and when we're

827
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 2: tapping into noticing our bodily signals, we're actually using that network.

828
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 2: You know. If we're paying attention to signals in our gut,

829
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:37,840
Speaker 2: that's the vegus nerve that's sending those messages. Now, if

830
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:41,360
Speaker 2: those messages coming up and we reach part in the

831
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:46,280
Speaker 2: brain called the insular that's related to our emotional awareness.

832
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 2: It plays a role in our social connections with other

833
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 2: people as well, and all of this will influence our

834
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 2: physiology of how the vegas nerve comes back down. So

835
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 2: it's a little bit like this continual feedback loop of

836
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 2: information that we can jump on to, particularly with the

837
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 2: fibers running up to change our physiology on the way

838
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:11,319
Speaker 2: back down. I do have to say that I do

839
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 2: get a little bit ranty when I see people say

840
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 2: you can hack it. It's not like we can just go, ah,

841
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:18,839
Speaker 2: I'm just going to turn this on or off or

842
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 2: something like that. It's like saying you can hack your

843
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:24,839
Speaker 2: spinal cord. But I think what's interesting to know is

844
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:28,719
Speaker 2: that we can build our ability to cope with and

845
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 2: recover from stresses because stress isn't going to go away.

846
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 2: As part of life. So I was paying you know,

847
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 2: we're going to still have them, but we can build

848
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:43,760
Speaker 2: our ability to in that moment have a wider window

849
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:47,919
Speaker 2: like we were in talking about, and so we may

850
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 2: not necessarily move into five or flight in the face

851
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:53,960
Speaker 2: of a challenge. And it's actually the part of the

852
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:57,400
Speaker 2: vagus nerve that we call the vagel break that acts

853
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:01,719
Speaker 2: to control that, and it can we can train this

854
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 2: to be very fine tune to match what's happening in

855
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 2: our environment. And just like we're talking about with neuroplasticity

856
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:13,200
Speaker 2: and this ability to change, it means that we can

857
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:18,360
Speaker 2: match what's happening in our external environment with the same

858
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:23,440
Speaker 2: amount of activation that we need to meet that challenge

859
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:28,560
Speaker 2: and demand, because most of dysregulation is really that our

860
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:32,920
Speaker 2: inner world is responding to something in the past, but

861
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 2: we want to come back to responding to what's happening today.

862
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 1: From the way I understand it, the vagus nerve is

863
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 1: this thing that influences subconscious reactions in our body like peristosis, digestion,

864
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 1: whether we're breathing fast or slow heart rate, etc. Yet

865
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:51,760
Speaker 1: if we do things like slowing our movements down, noticing

866
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 1: what my T shirt feels on my skin taking some

867
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:59,400
Speaker 1: extra long exhales that is influencing the information as you mentioned,

868
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 1: that's going back to my brain, which then changes my

869
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:04,839
Speaker 1: experience of things, and then it starts to flick all

870
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 1: these switches going. Well, I guess if I'm feeling that

871
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:09,440
Speaker 1: I'm okay here and my T shirt's good and we're

872
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 1: breathing a little slower, then we don't have to be

873
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:12,439
Speaker 1: so wil wired right now?

874
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:16,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, that because yes, I love that explanation, especially about

875
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:19,440
Speaker 2: my T shirt. It's good. You've summed it up beautifully.

876
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:22,919
Speaker 2: But it's definitely the bottom up information that we can

877
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 2: connect to that will tell the brain yep, we're sweet.

878
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 2: And then it's that lower center of the brain that

879
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 2: changes how the vagus nerve will then play out. But

880
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:36,839
Speaker 2: it's really the connection to safety and trust, right, that's

881
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 2: the key. So if we're sending messages of safety, trust,

882
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:45,240
Speaker 2: I'm okay, then that's how our physiology will change to adapt,

883
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 2: and that's when the vagas nerve will come back online.

884
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 1: I understand why people want to be so excited about it,

885
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 1: because I mean, I can't control how quickly I digest breakfast, Yes, right,

886
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 1: I can't control I can't decide when I'm going to pooh, right,

887
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:01,160
Speaker 1: it just I can hold on, but I can't go

888
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 1: yet at seven o'clock. Like, it's just so much of

889
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 1: our bodies out of our control. It just happens, you know,

890
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:09,239
Speaker 1: in cycles of whatever, sleep, wake, you name it. So

891
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:12,359
Speaker 1: the idea that we had could have some influence over

892
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:17,840
Speaker 1: this unconscious way our body works is very exciting, particularly

893
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 1: when it relates to how we feel and the ability

894
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:23,279
Speaker 1: to make good choices in a moment. I understand why

895
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,799
Speaker 1: people can get a bit ramped up about it. Just

896
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:35,720
Speaker 1: taking a quick break back in a second. You mentioned

897
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 1: your child before. I get really excited when I watch

898
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:43,360
Speaker 1: this stuff that they teach young Wolfe at school. Yes,

899
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 1: all right, and we started him really early. We started

900
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:51,279
Speaker 1: him with snake breaths, which is making my hand move

901
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 1: like this, right, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

902
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:56,839
Speaker 1: What are some things that people can do, Like I say,

903
00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 1: for example, let's start with five year olds and we'll

904
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:00,480
Speaker 1: go up. And it was some things that ways that

905
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:02,799
Speaker 1: people can teach or get, you know, just at least

906
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 1: a bit of regulation going on for their kids just

907
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:07,880
Speaker 1: to do it as a habit.

908
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:11,840
Speaker 2: It's all play based with kids. So when we work

909
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:15,879
Speaker 2: with kids with you know, looking at different pediatric things

910
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:19,840
Speaker 2: that we're always using play because where they're focused is

911
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 2: where their brain body system will be activating where we

912
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 2: can change them. So with kids, it's almost like you

913
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:29,839
Speaker 2: put your mind with their mind, right, so let them lead,

914
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:32,399
Speaker 2: you come in with them. So let's say they're doing

915
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 2: something and they're you know, right into it, Like with

916
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:40,520
Speaker 2: my daughter, we might play something like smell the flower,

917
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:44,279
Speaker 2: blow away the pedals, So that's what you're saying with

918
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:47,400
Speaker 2: the breathing. But particularly if we want to use like

919
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 2: play and music to feel the body, particularly like talking

920
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:54,480
Speaker 2: about interception like we are, there might be something like

921
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 2: let's make our hands open clothes, open clothes, can you

922
00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 2: feel the tingerly sensations inside your hand? And you know,

923
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:03,960
Speaker 2: we're naturally doing this a little bit with kids when

924
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 2: say we're like do you need to go to the

925
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:09,360
Speaker 2: toilet and they're like no, And they're like, oh, it

926
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:12,360
Speaker 2: looks like you've got your legs crossed and you're jiggling around.

927
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 2: Do you need to go to the toilest So directing

928
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 2: them to that is how we develop their ability to

929
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:21,960
Speaker 2: notice their inner world. So you know, lots of that

930
00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 2: play based, body based, directed. But if you think about

931
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:28,920
Speaker 2: music as well, in the way that you can you

932
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 2: can entrain the system to come up with certain music

933
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 2: or come back down. That's another one, but a lot

934
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:41,280
Speaker 2: of it as well is the validation around emotions are okay,

935
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:45,279
Speaker 2: big feelings are okay, And like, kids aren't born with

936
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:49,520
Speaker 2: the ability to self regulate. They need us as coregulators first.

937
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:53,719
Speaker 2: So it's hard, you know, I mean, parenting is the

938
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:58,319
Speaker 2: toughest joll it's amazing, but you're also a challenge with it.

939
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 2: But I think we've spoken about some things we can

940
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 2: use in the heat of the moment without contact points,

941
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 2: but if we're feeling ril, this is the time where

942
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:10,120
Speaker 2: we can use our movement with kids as well. I

943
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 2: really like the things where there's a bit of testing them,

944
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:15,480
Speaker 2: as in playing a game where you might be doing

945
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 2: something then they need to stop and you have to hold,

946
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:22,920
Speaker 2: and they're like they feel the mobilization, like they're really excited.

947
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 2: They want to go. They've got to be able to hold.

948
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:27,880
Speaker 2: That's like your self regulation, and then you go again.

949
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:31,480
Speaker 2: So that might be like exciting music, exciting jumping stop,

950
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:36,560
Speaker 2: they've got to hold, go again. So that will teach

951
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,719
Speaker 2: them to be able to bring in their vagus nerve

952
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:42,600
Speaker 2: or the vagel break to slow back down.

953
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:45,920
Speaker 1: And here is how Joe Brahm is teaching us as

954
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:49,759
Speaker 1: a whole community. The opening theme of Blue with the

955
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:54,279
Speaker 1: Dan the musical statues game. That's fine, all right, Joe,

956
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:57,720
Speaker 1: you're a genius. You deserve your money and the billions

957
00:55:57,760 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 1: and your success because it's incredible.

958
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 2: Yes, but they will, you know, like a parent with

959
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 2: the voice where we have vocal prosody, like if we're

960
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:10,840
Speaker 2: in our if we're in our winnow of tolerance, we

961
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:14,959
Speaker 2: say that we've got our social engagement system online, which

962
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:17,719
Speaker 2: is part of the vegus nerves job or its role

963
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 2: in connection with other people. So you know, we're not

964
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:25,840
Speaker 2: necessarily regulated when we talk in our calm, whispery voice

965
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:29,400
Speaker 2: like this, it's actually where there's ups and downs in

966
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:32,400
Speaker 2: the voice. There's changes in pitch and rhythm. And if

967
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:34,919
Speaker 2: a child hears that in their parents' voice, they're going

968
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:40,040
Speaker 2: to feel already closer to regulation. When we smile at

969
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:42,719
Speaker 2: them and they see the wrinkles around our eyes. I

970
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:46,479
Speaker 2: know that we love to like botox these, but these

971
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:50,160
Speaker 2: are actually these wrinkles are actually on the outside of

972
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:53,840
Speaker 2: our eyes are actually the wrinkles that send to people

973
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:58,279
Speaker 2: cues of safety and connection. So if you see someone

974
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:00,760
Speaker 2: smile at you, and they really smile with their eyes

975
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:05,440
Speaker 2: and you feel that walks inside you know where you're like, oh,

976
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:09,480
Speaker 2: that's oxytocin and your vegus nerve coming online and you're

977
00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:13,239
Speaker 2: having that connection. So kids really need that too, And

978
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 2: a lot of it is it's an embodied state that

979
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 2: we're in. You know, we can't fake it. They see

980
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:19,680
Speaker 2: through it.

981
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:22,920
Speaker 1: It is interesting how were you're describing, is that sometimes

982
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:28,000
Speaker 1: as a parent, or sometimes even as a couple, you

983
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:32,680
Speaker 1: may need to do some heavy lifting with regulating a situation.

984
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:35,680
Speaker 1: You know, if you're going hammer and tongs at it

985
00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:38,640
Speaker 1: with your like not like in a quarrel. I should say,

986
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:41,640
Speaker 1: if you're in a quarrel with your partner, right and

987
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:44,560
Speaker 1: one of you is it is starting to become you know,

988
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 1: a little too elevated and things are getting there. You've

989
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:50,680
Speaker 1: got to do some work. You can't get upset at

990
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:53,600
Speaker 1: them for like, hey, can you calm down? Like never

991
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:55,080
Speaker 1: ever has that ever?

992
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:59,160
Speaker 2: Would No one's come down. I'm being told to calm down.

993
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 1: No But it's interesting, isn't it how one person, if

994
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:06,360
Speaker 1: they're in that moment and they can identify or we're

995
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:11,400
Speaker 1: escalating here, that their regulation can affect the other person.

996
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a mirror. You know. It's like if you

997
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 2: think about what coregulation is. We've got research like definitely

998
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:25,240
Speaker 2: with child and parent, but this is between anybody, like

999
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:28,959
Speaker 2: in the coregulation aspect of And this is what we're

1000
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:32,160
Speaker 2: teaching to our health practitioners at the moment that yes,

1001
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:34,000
Speaker 2: we can have all these tools, yes we can have

1002
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:37,960
Speaker 2: all these skills, but your energy and the way you

1003
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:41,160
Speaker 2: show up for people who are having a really hard time,

1004
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:45,720
Speaker 2: Like most of my patients were like PTSD clients, and

1005
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:48,919
Speaker 2: that was like, okay, well, how do I stay regulated

1006
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:53,400
Speaker 2: each day or after a full day of people telling

1007
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:56,439
Speaker 2: me it is? And that's probably not something that health

1008
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:59,080
Speaker 2: practitioners talk a lot about. You know, we've got to

1009
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 2: be the strong one stoic, but we are influenced by

1010
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:07,479
Speaker 2: each other. We can either move towards coregulation where both

1011
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:10,520
Speaker 2: of us, you know, we see that heart rate synchronized,

1012
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:13,400
Speaker 2: we see the breathing rate synchronized. But we can also

1013
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:17,280
Speaker 2: move to codysregulation and We've just been talking in one

1014
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:20,480
Speaker 2: of our communities about in health practitioners, you'll see it

1015
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:24,840
Speaker 2: as the fixer, the leaning in, talking talking, talking, talking,

1016
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:29,800
Speaker 2: not letting anybody else say anything, the hurrying their patients through.

1017
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:32,120
Speaker 2: And this is all the things that you hear from

1018
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:34,560
Speaker 2: people when they say, oh, I went and saw them

1019
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:38,120
Speaker 2: and they didn't listen, They didn't you know. So it's

1020
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:42,920
Speaker 2: really interesting. Yes, there is a feedback loop that we

1021
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:47,640
Speaker 2: enter into with other people and this is like an

1022
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:50,640
Speaker 2: art and it's a practice. We never get to the end,

1023
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:54,720
Speaker 2: but to learn how can I keep working on staying

1024
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:57,760
Speaker 2: regulated in the heat of the moment and support others

1025
00:59:57,800 --> 00:59:59,040
Speaker 2: That can be a big challenge.

1026
00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:02,240
Speaker 1: You mentioned if she physical things through our conversation, but

1027
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:04,640
Speaker 1: one thing we haven't pun intended, one thing we haven't

1028
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:08,640
Speaker 1: touched on is touch. Yes, so there's physical, there's postural,

1029
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:12,439
Speaker 1: there's thinking about and just noticing an awareness. But what

1030
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:14,560
Speaker 1: role can you know by yourself?

1031
01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 2: What role?

1032
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:18,200
Speaker 1: And what are some things we can do using our

1033
01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:22,080
Speaker 1: own skin, touching ourselves to assist us in a moment.

1034
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:24,120
Speaker 1: And we might need to get a little more kind

1035
01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:27,120
Speaker 1: of ground. These work ground, but a little more stable.

1036
01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:29,560
Speaker 2: You know. We don't talk enough about touch with nervous

1037
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:32,600
Speaker 2: system health. I don't think, but we can think about

1038
01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:37,560
Speaker 2: that touch to using our skin as a really good

1039
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:41,280
Speaker 2: sensory feedback to the brain. And so what I see

1040
01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:45,160
Speaker 2: in people who have had traumatic stress, particularly people who

1041
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:48,480
Speaker 2: went through an incident and then let's say they froze

1042
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 2: at the time, and they're like, why didn't I say something,

1043
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:54,640
Speaker 2: Why didn't I stand up for myself? I'm so, you know,

1044
01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:58,440
Speaker 2: but freeze is the most common response to a traumatic event,

1045
01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:02,640
Speaker 2: and it's what keeps us safe. So when we have

1046
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:07,280
Speaker 2: that feeling of shame, we need a way to be

1047
01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:13,240
Speaker 2: with those sensations, those bodily signals that are actually bringing

1048
01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 2: a sense of attunement, kindness, acceptance. Some might call it

1049
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:23,400
Speaker 2: self compassion. And what's interesting is people who struggle with

1050
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:27,240
Speaker 2: self compassion are more likely to experience anxiety and depression.

1051
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:33,360
Speaker 2: And so when we use touch, whether we think about

1052
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:36,240
Speaker 2: this as like a hand on the hand on the cheek,

1053
01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:40,520
Speaker 2: and it's actually a way we can contain something that

1054
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:46,200
Speaker 2: feels so strong that can be an incredible way to

1055
01:01:46,600 --> 01:01:51,000
Speaker 2: soothe ourselves by bringing, on the other hand, like a

1056
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:55,320
Speaker 2: strong pressure to the joints, like squeezing through the shoulders

1057
01:01:55,360 --> 01:01:58,320
Speaker 2: and saying, Okay, this is my shoulders, these are my shoulders.

1058
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:01,720
Speaker 2: For people who just so or disconnect from their body,

1059
01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:06,200
Speaker 2: that can be a really great way to stop themselves

1060
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:09,160
Speaker 2: moving down into shut down because it's like what I

1061
01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:12,080
Speaker 2: was saying before, we turn the signals from the body

1062
01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:14,360
Speaker 2: back up, like the volume back up on where the

1063
01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:17,000
Speaker 2: body is, and that can shift us out of the

1064
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:21,440
Speaker 2: shutdown stage. And one of the things I love so

1065
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:27,320
Speaker 2: for people who have the sensitization or central sensitization where

1066
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:29,280
Speaker 2: there's a lot of pain, and this has been shown

1067
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:34,960
Speaker 2: in fibromyalgia, but other persistent pain conditions. The part of

1068
01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:40,920
Speaker 2: the brain that actually maps where our body is, we

1069
01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:45,880
Speaker 2: know with sensitization it can get smudged, so it's not

1070
01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:49,720
Speaker 2: as clear. Now if you think about someone who who's

1071
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:55,000
Speaker 2: a pianist or a guitar player, the representation of their

1072
01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 2: hands in their brain can actually be larger because they

1073
01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:04,800
Speaker 2: they've trained. That's an example of neuroplasticity. And so what

1074
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:09,440
Speaker 2: we sometimes see is like with phantom limb pain, the

1075
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:13,160
Speaker 2: leg's gone, but there's still pain there, and it can

1076
01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:16,360
Speaker 2: be the amplification of the brain trying to find that

1077
01:03:16,800 --> 01:03:20,680
Speaker 2: sensory or where the leg is, so there's an activation

1078
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:24,280
Speaker 2: in that sensory cortex. And so one thing we'd touch

1079
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:28,800
Speaker 2: is if we were to touch on someone's lower back

1080
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:31,480
Speaker 2: who had lower back pain, then we use two fingers

1081
01:03:31,520 --> 01:03:34,000
Speaker 2: and we say, am I touching you with two fingers

1082
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:39,280
Speaker 2: or one? It's helping them work out what that discrimination

1083
01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:43,680
Speaker 2: difference is between two fingers or one. That sharpens the

1084
01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:47,480
Speaker 2: map in their brain. It calms down the immune system,

1085
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:51,680
Speaker 2: that calms down the activation in the brain, and that

1086
01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:54,080
Speaker 2: can decrease pain. I also love to do it with

1087
01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:57,280
Speaker 2: like you touch someone on their back and you say

1088
01:03:57,320 --> 01:03:59,880
Speaker 2: where am I touching you? And they lay on their

1089
01:04:00,200 --> 01:04:03,080
Speaker 2: on their belly with like a picture underneath their face

1090
01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:07,440
Speaker 2: and it's numbered and so you make that more accurate.

1091
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:11,120
Speaker 2: And that's been shown to work really well for that

1092
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:13,840
Speaker 2: central sensitization. So touch is amazing.

1093
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:19,120
Speaker 1: You mentioned the people have lost a limb. One of

1094
01:04:19,160 --> 01:04:22,760
Speaker 1: the people we talked to in our film, she was

1095
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:24,560
Speaker 1: not standing in her kitchen and she goes, well, right

1096
01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:27,960
Speaker 1: down my foot, titchy, look down and there's no foot.

1097
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:34,760
Speaker 1: Choose to think called mirror box. Yes, exactly, amazing, astoundingly

1098
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:37,080
Speaker 1: discovered after I think World War One, the Bore War

1099
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:40,280
Speaker 1: or something like. It's just extraordinary whatever brains can do.

1100
01:04:40,360 --> 01:04:41,520
Speaker 1: And just the last thing I would say on that

1101
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:44,640
Speaker 1: on the touch and the pressure pretty much every night

1102
01:04:45,400 --> 01:04:50,320
Speaker 1: right before I read Wolfy stories. He I'm not going

1103
01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:52,440
Speaker 1: to tell you what begs me, but he's very insistent

1104
01:04:52,480 --> 01:04:56,680
Speaker 1: that I squish him, Yes, squish him before bed. It

1105
01:04:56,680 --> 01:04:59,600
Speaker 1: gets under his covers and he lies himself flat and

1106
01:04:59,640 --> 01:05:01,720
Speaker 1: I I lie on him, and I may make a

1107
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:04,600
Speaker 1: game and I pretend to fall asleep, but he just mate.

1108
01:05:04,720 --> 01:05:07,960
Speaker 1: It almost turns his little brain like I wish there

1109
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:10,280
Speaker 1: was someone Humongos that could come and squish me. Yes

1110
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:13,000
Speaker 1: to be pretty cool.

1111
01:05:13,200 --> 01:05:16,920
Speaker 2: It's so like, you know, to know where your body

1112
01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:21,080
Speaker 2: is is so grounding and the brain goes, okay, got you.

1113
01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:25,200
Speaker 2: And that's that's something we definitely don't talk enough about

1114
01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:28,840
Speaker 2: in the world of nervous system dysregulation. You know, everyone's

1115
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:31,920
Speaker 2: so focused on the breast, so focused on like the

1116
01:05:32,080 --> 01:05:34,400
Speaker 2: different ways that we can come down. But touch is

1117
01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:38,200
Speaker 2: one of the pressure, and those sensory systems are really

1118
01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:39,360
Speaker 2: the fastest gateway.

1119
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:41,520
Speaker 1: It's no accident. You get a good night's sleep in

1120
01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:43,920
Speaker 1: a hammock, whether on a sheep, whether on a ship

1121
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:48,440
Speaker 1: or not. The feeling of being crazy, like, oh man,

1122
01:05:49,040 --> 01:05:52,680
Speaker 1: it's the best. I'm very excited that you are doing

1123
01:05:52,720 --> 01:05:55,640
Speaker 1: the work you're doing. I think it's a great time

1124
01:05:56,720 --> 01:05:59,520
Speaker 1: for you to be doing it because you know the

1125
01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:01,360
Speaker 1: work that I'm doing in this area, because then we

1126
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:03,800
Speaker 1: shot this film nearly two years ago. Now the people

1127
01:06:03,840 --> 01:06:07,280
Speaker 1: I've been speaking with and there's a big shift towards

1128
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:11,120
Speaker 1: this crossover space that we've been discussing today, which ultimately

1129
01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:13,200
Speaker 1: I'm thrilled for because it means that a lot more

1130
01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:16,000
Speaker 1: people have a lot more relief and have better quality

1131
01:06:16,080 --> 01:06:18,560
Speaker 1: relationships with the people around them, which is ultimately what

1132
01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:22,080
Speaker 1: it is. You know, it's not about this hurts. It's like, ah,

1133
01:06:22,120 --> 01:06:24,320
Speaker 1: I keep having fights with my partner because I'm just

1134
01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:27,240
Speaker 1: cranky all the time, and that's what was problem with me.

1135
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:30,320
Speaker 1: But that's, you know, also also what it is. You're great.

1136
01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:31,800
Speaker 1: Thanks for taking the time talk to me today.

1137
01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:33,080
Speaker 2: Thank you, sir. I loved it.

1138
01:06:34,400 --> 01:06:37,120
Speaker 1: That was Jessica Maguire. Her new book is called The

1139
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:39,400
Speaker 1: Nervous System Reset. There's a link to get it in

1140
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:41,720
Speaker 1: the show notes. I particularly like that line in there,

1141
01:06:42,120 --> 01:06:45,240
Speaker 1: we can't talk our way out of a trauma response

1142
01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:49,439
Speaker 1: and we can't talk our nervous system into feeling safe.

1143
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:52,080
Speaker 1: That was a really interesting kind of way of looking

1144
01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:54,760
Speaker 1: at it. I really appreciated that. If you want any

1145
01:06:54,800 --> 01:06:57,200
Speaker 1: more information about the podcast or early access to live

1146
01:06:57,240 --> 01:06:59,120
Speaker 1: show tickets, just get on the substack the linkers in

1147
01:06:59,160 --> 01:07:01,480
Speaker 1: the show notes. There's tickets to live shows there. If

1148
01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:03,640
Speaker 1: you need me, My email's been the same since twenty

1149
01:07:03,720 --> 01:07:06,640
Speaker 1: and fifteen. Sand off your email at gmail dot com.

1150
01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:09,000
Speaker 1: Thanks to everyone who helped me make the show, especially,

1151
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:12,400
Speaker 1: and this is a big, especially, a big, big thank

1152
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:17,720
Speaker 1: you to my longtime, longtime audio collaborator, Andy mar This

1153
01:07:17,760 --> 01:07:20,920
Speaker 1: is the last show that Andy is making with me,

1154
01:07:21,200 --> 01:07:23,280
Speaker 1: So I'm just going to take a moment to say

1155
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:25,840
Speaker 1: thank you to him, because if you've been listening to

1156
01:07:25,840 --> 01:07:27,560
Speaker 1: this show for a while, you've been listening to Andy's

1157
01:07:27,560 --> 01:07:30,480
Speaker 1: hard work. Every single episode. I do not produce these myself.

1158
01:07:30,520 --> 01:07:33,880
Speaker 1: Andy puts some all together. Simply put, this podcast would

1159
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:37,520
Speaker 1: not still exist were it not for Andy. ANDYMA dot

1160
01:07:37,520 --> 01:07:41,800
Speaker 1: com for all your podcast production needs. Around the episode

1161
01:07:41,800 --> 01:07:46,080
Speaker 1: one hundred or so is when Andy reached out. I'd

1162
01:07:46,120 --> 01:07:48,520
Speaker 1: been producing this show myself, and he and I had

1163
01:07:48,560 --> 01:07:50,840
Speaker 1: worked together in radio for some years before that, and

1164
01:07:51,000 --> 01:07:52,880
Speaker 1: so I'm editing the shows and recording the shows and

1165
01:07:52,920 --> 01:07:56,560
Speaker 1: making mistakes. It's taking forever. I mean, I'm okay with

1166
01:07:56,840 --> 01:07:59,959
Speaker 1: editing software, but I'm not fast. I'm not great easy.

1167
01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:02,080
Speaker 1: He's at me four to five hours to produce up

1168
01:08:02,200 --> 01:08:04,400
Speaker 1: a show and I've just moved in with Ordering and Georgia,

1169
01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:07,760
Speaker 1: and four to five hours at home, not engaging with

1170
01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:11,680
Speaker 1: my family was becoming a problem. Well, let me know

1171
01:08:11,720 --> 01:08:15,200
Speaker 1: if you need any help with producing those episodes. Man, yes, Andy, please,

1172
01:08:15,480 --> 01:08:19,680
Speaker 1: I replied. And Andy has been since that day, the

1173
01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:22,920
Speaker 1: very steady hand behind the scenes. Here. He shapes the

1174
01:08:22,960 --> 01:08:26,920
Speaker 1: conversations that you hear. Often not all the time, but

1175
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:30,720
Speaker 1: often the conversations you hear you might hear the way

1176
01:08:30,760 --> 01:08:33,840
Speaker 1: that you hear it. But some parts we've taken from

1177
01:08:34,160 --> 01:08:36,240
Speaker 1: that part and moved up because it makes the back

1178
01:08:36,280 --> 01:08:38,519
Speaker 1: part payoff more like. He builds the arcs. He builds

1179
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:42,559
Speaker 1: the arcs of the story, and he does it incredibly well.

1180
01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:44,840
Speaker 1: He balances the moments where I laugh out loud with

1181
01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:47,320
Speaker 1: the moments that I find myself crying really well. He's

1182
01:08:47,320 --> 01:08:50,160
Speaker 1: a true wizard. He's the Michelangelo of the mixing desk.

1183
01:08:50,240 --> 01:08:53,879
Speaker 1: He's the Da Vinci of Da Vinci. That's a software

1184
01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:57,680
Speaker 1: joke for the one person that laughed. Andy Maher is

1185
01:08:57,720 --> 01:09:02,679
Speaker 1: not just a audio producer. He translates my ideas into

1186
01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:05,840
Speaker 1: the moments that you hear. He doesn't just listen to

1187
01:09:07,080 --> 01:09:09,160
Speaker 1: the recordings that I make. He listens to the people

1188
01:09:09,200 --> 01:09:11,680
Speaker 1: in the recordings and translates that into something that is

1189
01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:14,599
Speaker 1: effective for you to hear. And that is a skill

1190
01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:17,000
Speaker 1: that is not found in any software update. That is

1191
01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:19,920
Speaker 1: something that only comes from thousands and thousands of flight hours.

1192
01:09:20,680 --> 01:09:23,519
Speaker 1: What sets him apart is not just his technical brilliance,

1193
01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:25,280
Speaker 1: but also his empathy for the people that I have

1194
01:09:25,360 --> 01:09:27,759
Speaker 1: on the show and me to be honest, because sometimes,

1195
01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:30,519
Speaker 1: holy shit, he's chasing me for intros and shit at

1196
01:09:30,520 --> 01:09:32,080
Speaker 1: the eleventh hour. I mean, I should have had this

1197
01:09:32,120 --> 01:09:34,080
Speaker 1: intro to him twenty four hours ago. But he's getting

1198
01:09:34,080 --> 01:09:36,639
Speaker 1: it now. When I went to audio school, right after

1199
01:09:36,680 --> 01:09:38,200
Speaker 1: I was a roadie, or around when I was roady,

1200
01:09:38,240 --> 01:09:40,840
Speaker 1: I went to audio school and Ian Taylor, he used

1201
01:09:40,840 --> 01:09:42,240
Speaker 1: to do front of house for the Angels, he was

1202
01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:45,240
Speaker 1: my teacher, and he pointed the mixing desk with all

1203
01:09:45,280 --> 01:09:46,679
Speaker 1: the buttons on it and he said yeah, a look

1204
01:09:46,760 --> 01:09:50,960
Speaker 1: see that. See it? Do anybody see a d shit button? Nah,

1205
01:09:50,960 --> 01:09:52,800
Speaker 1: there isn't one. So if it's shit going on to tape,

1206
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:54,479
Speaker 1: it'll be shit coming off tape, so make sure it's

1207
01:09:54,479 --> 01:09:57,080
Speaker 1: not shit. It's like, okay, thank you. But let me

1208
01:09:57,120 --> 01:10:00,479
Speaker 1: tell you Andy, sometimes, particularly around when my mum and

1209
01:10:00,520 --> 01:10:02,559
Speaker 1: I was recording episodes on my phone in the back

1210
01:10:02,600 --> 01:10:07,880
Speaker 1: of a taxi. Andy, you made shit sound incredible, way

1211
01:10:07,960 --> 01:10:10,640
Speaker 1: less potato than it actually did. Andy, m thank you

1212
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:13,680
Speaker 1: for the thousands and thousands of hours of work, and

1213
01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:17,200
Speaker 1: thank you for being a part of my life. I

1214
01:10:17,280 --> 01:10:19,760
Speaker 1: love you man. Looks love you too, dude,