Speaker 1: I got a Champs. I'd be good. It's a Sunday afternoon,
Speaker 1: as young Kelly Smith joins me on the U Project couch,
Speaker 1: well not really, the U Project Studio, the Virtual Studio,
Speaker 1: the world of Ta and Y and p hi kel.
Speaker 2: Hi Graig, How are you going?
Speaker 1: I'm going good. How has your weekend been?
Speaker 2: Really good?
Speaker 1: Really good?
Speaker 2: Lots of catching up with people, lots of gym, lots
Speaker 2: of walking. Just got caught in the storm, which was
Speaker 2: a bit of fun, a bit of fun dodging.
Speaker 1: All of that. Yes, it's been quite biblical, the weather,
Speaker 1: it's been quite I've been out most of the afternoon
Speaker 1: building an arc, like just in case I want to
Speaker 1: cover all my bases. You know, one hundred and eighty
Speaker 1: cubits long and forty cubits high. Do you know what
Speaker 1: a cube it is?
Speaker 2: I don't.
Speaker 1: Have you ever heard of that term? Cubits? No?
Speaker 2: No, I haven't, No, really no, what is it?
Speaker 1: Nobody needs to know this, but I'll tell you. So.
Speaker 1: It's biblical measurement in the Old Testament. Of course, when
Speaker 1: all of my lists have just gone up in biblical references,
Speaker 1: they've all gone Oh God. So in the yes, literally,
Speaker 1: oh God. In the Old Testament when Noah's building the arc.
Speaker 1: I can't remember exactly how long, but it's something like
Speaker 1: one hundred and sixty or one hundred and eighty cubits
Speaker 1: And a cubit now, of course this is variable, but
Speaker 1: it's from the elbow to the fingertip, so obviously that's
Speaker 1: going to vary a bit person to person. But it's
Speaker 1: kind of a ballpark unit unit of measurement, and that's
Speaker 1: how that's how it was measured in those days. Height
Speaker 1: and width and length was in cubits. See, nobody needs
Speaker 1: to know that because now we've got centimeters and millimeters
Speaker 1: which are much more accurate.
Speaker 2: But a cubit could be fun, I think, because you're
Speaker 2: always going to be right because it's based on your cubt.
Speaker 1: Wonder how many cubits tall you are? Well, yeah, right,
Speaker 1: m Well it's easy for like, say you had to
Speaker 1: measure your fridge up and you're going the Good Guys
Speaker 1: to get a new one. Might be difficult getting down
Speaker 1: on the floor to get you well on the floor,
Speaker 1: and you might look like a bit of a dick
Speaker 1: in the showroom at the good Guys. They're like, what
Speaker 1: are you doing? I'm just checking the cubits of this fridge.
Speaker 1: Oh it's four and a half cubit soon you. Oh,
Speaker 1: you're welcome world. That's me on a Sunday afternoon. I'm done,
Speaker 1: all right, everyone, it's been great. It's five four, three minutes.
Speaker 1: We're done. There we go drop.
Speaker 2: That was a cubit sized podcast today, done one cubit.
Speaker 1: How long was the podcast? It was one cubit from
Speaker 1: my elbows to my fingertips in terms of time. What
Speaker 1: are we talking about today? You ran something, you sent
Speaker 1: me a message and you went, what about this? Then
Speaker 1: I went, yep, let's open that door because I think
Speaker 1: I think it's broadly relevant, which we try to be
Speaker 1: broadly relevant.
Speaker 2: Well, I hope it is. So for a bit of
Speaker 2: context and anyone that's heard me on here before, I
Speaker 2: do have a certain level of anxiety at any given time,
Speaker 2: and so since being back from my holiday, it's been there.
Speaker 2: And it's either you know, about a nine or about
Speaker 2: a two, but it's there, and me being me, I
Speaker 2: like to ask questions and i'd like to know why.
Speaker 2: I'd like to give it a name or a label
Speaker 2: and then fix it. So I've been listening to a
Speaker 2: few different things, And a consistent theme that's been coming
Speaker 2: up is the power of positive thinking and whether that
Speaker 2: is believing in yourself, having a bit of a mantra,
Speaker 2: having something that you write down actually saying it to yourself,
Speaker 2: which I kind of think that's a bit it's a
Speaker 2: little bit out there for me at the moment, but
Speaker 2: there's a lot of conversations I've been listening to where
Speaker 2: people are saying it actually works for me. If I,
Speaker 2: you know, wake up in the morning and the first
Speaker 2: thing I think is today I'm going to have a
Speaker 2: great day, then that thought kind of that outweighs our
Speaker 2: ship what could go wrong? And I just wanted to
Speaker 2: really get into that and is it something that can
Speaker 2: be powerful and what else is behind that? Because I
Speaker 2: feel like, you know, for someone that lives with anxiety,
Speaker 2: like thoughts are very powerful, but then there's also action,
Speaker 2: So how do they kind of correlate what could be stronger?
Speaker 2: Do they do? They kind of outweigh each other?
Speaker 1: So like, what is it? What is it? Yeah? Is
Speaker 1: positive thinking like oh, life's great and it'll be great
Speaker 1: and I'm great. Well that's delusional thinking, that's not positive thinking.
Speaker 1: So I think, yeah, I think positive thinking is for me,
Speaker 1: And again this conversation about I actually would not what
Speaker 1: the technical definition is. But I don't think there's a
Speaker 1: single definition because it's really a subjective interpretation. But for me,
Speaker 1: positive thinking is not delusional thinking. It's not pretending that
Speaker 1: things are always going to turn out great. And you know,
Speaker 1: life's just an ongoing Disney movie with unicorns and fucking
Speaker 1: puppies and marshmallows. But you know, life's a shitfest at times,
Speaker 1: and life's beautiful at times. But I think positive thinking
Speaker 1: is more about can I manage my mind in a
Speaker 1: productive and positive way in the middle of things that
Speaker 1: might not be so positive? Yeah, So in the shitfest,
Speaker 1: or in the mayhem, or in the unfairness, or in
Speaker 1: the sadness even can I be the person that copes
Speaker 1: And I don't always need to thrive. Sometimes I'm just
Speaker 1: going to survive. Sometimes I'm treading emotional and psychological water,
Speaker 1: and I'm just trying to keep my metaphoric head above
Speaker 1: the ocean of shit that's going on around me. So
Speaker 1: I think that, you know, positive thinking is a convergence
Speaker 1: of managing our mind and our energy and our emotions
Speaker 1: and our choices and our self awareness where we are
Speaker 1: recognizing that things are not always good, or in the moment,
Speaker 1: we might recognize right now, well, this is a catastrophe.
Speaker 1: Like for example, I don't know why this came to mind,
Speaker 1: but you know, when the crab died in the gym,
Speaker 1: my training partner. If you haven't heard this, and I'm
Speaker 1: sure most of you have heard it too many times,
Speaker 1: but like in the middle of all of that, my
Speaker 1: arm and by the way, I'm not saying I did
Speaker 1: a great job at all. I'm just saying that in
Speaker 1: the middle of that, all I could think about was
Speaker 1: how do I fucking save him? What do I need
Speaker 1: to do? What's going to work? What do I not
Speaker 1: need to do? How's the best way to manage this?
Speaker 1: Blah blah blah. Like everything for me, in the middle
Speaker 1: of literally somebody dead, literally everything for me was focused
Speaker 1: on a solution. Everything, like all of my energy, all
Speaker 1: of my intellect, all of my resources, everything. And I
Speaker 1: think probably just as much good luck as good management,
Speaker 1: if I'm being humble and honest, because it could have
Speaker 1: turned out very differently. But for me, I think being
Speaker 1: in that moment where the shit's like, it doesn't get
Speaker 1: any worse than someone dying in front of you. That's it.
Speaker 1: That's the worst day you're ever going to have. Is
Speaker 1: your friend dropping dead? Right? What are you doing in
Speaker 1: the middle of that? And then we can if we go, well,
Speaker 1: that's a ten, that's a ten. It's probably an eleven
Speaker 1: out of ten, you know. And then but I think
Speaker 1: that you know, that's at the extreme end of the scale.
Speaker 1: But I think it can be. It can be that.
Speaker 1: It can that be that kind of self management when
Speaker 1: awareness and regulation of self management of the mind and
Speaker 1: choices and state. But it also can be all right, well,
Speaker 1: things aren't going well, and this is not what I
Speaker 1: wanted to happen. In fact, this is a minor catastrophe.
Speaker 1: How could I reframe this? So I'm still acknowledging what's
Speaker 1: going on. I'm not pretending it's good because it's not good.
Speaker 1: It's not good. There's something bad going on. But it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter if I run away or I turn the
Speaker 1: other way. It's still going on. So how do I
Speaker 1: reframe this? And I might go, look, this is bad,
Speaker 1: but there are a lot of worse things that could happen.
Speaker 1: That's a reframe. A reframe might be this is bad,
Speaker 1: but potentially I'm going to learn something in the middle
Speaker 1: of this. And I know that sounds cheesy, but I've
Speaker 1: said this many times and it sounds like a cliche,
Speaker 1: and I apologize in advance. But for me, it is
Speaker 1: literally true that the world is my classroom, and that
Speaker 1: every person that I meet, everything that happens to me
Speaker 1: or for me, or despite me or around me, everything
Speaker 1: is a potential lesson. Now, am I always a good student?
Speaker 1: Of course not. But if you navigate the world through
Speaker 1: like remember, we all navigate the world through our own lens, right,
Speaker 1: So something happens, Kelly goes, oh, that's a minor event.
Speaker 1: Craig goes, that's a fucking catastrophe. Even though we are
Speaker 1: looking at the same thing, we're seeing an inverted com
Speaker 1: is something different. That is because of the lens through
Speaker 1: which I view it and the lens through which you
Speaker 1: view it. And the thing is that if you think
Speaker 1: it's a minor speed hump, your stress response is are one.
Speaker 1: If I think it's a catastrophe the same thing, my
Speaker 1: stress response is a nine. And neither of those respons
Speaker 1: are about the thing itself, but rather Kelly and Craig's
Speaker 1: individual and unique response to the stimulus. I know I'm
Speaker 1: getting deep and I'm trying not to be too, but
Speaker 1: this is that, you know, it comes back to how
Speaker 1: well can I manage my mind? And so I think
Speaker 1: positive thinking as a concept is a small part of
Speaker 1: something much bigger, and it's like, you know, it's but
Speaker 1: it's a great conversation starting point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think too, it's also down to like,
Speaker 2: maybe that is just someone's actual starting point, the process
Speaker 2: of going okay, well today, rather than waking up and thinking, God,
Speaker 2: what's going to happen? Is what going to be awful?
Speaker 2: Is that person going to be there? Is someone going
Speaker 2: to criticize me or offend me? Or is it just
Speaker 2: as simple as waking up and going today might actually
Speaker 2: be good? Like is that something that would be a
Speaker 2: legit and its starting point in the management of the mind.
Speaker 1: I think a great way to manage the mind in
Speaker 1: the moment is not to project at all about what
Speaker 1: might happen today or what might not happen. You're in
Speaker 1: bed and you're already thinking about hypothetical future problems, right,
Speaker 1: that's bad. I'm in bed and I'm already thinking about
Speaker 1: the bad things that could happen. Maybe today that are
Speaker 1: not happening. Now, what's happening now? Well, now I'm in
Speaker 1: bed and it's fucking comfortable, and I'm warm, and my
Speaker 1: little toesies are under the dinner and life is brilliant.
Speaker 1: But what I'll do is, rather than being in this moment,
Speaker 1: I'll immerse my physiology in some projected future, bad moment
Speaker 1: that probably won't happen, and I'll take myself out of
Speaker 1: the carmen into the chaos or with my own little mind. Again,
Speaker 1: they mind management one oh one. But that's that's awareness
Speaker 1: one oh one. Like you think a lot of people,
Speaker 1: especially people who reach for their phone before they get
Speaker 1: out of bed, the fucking central nervous system is going nuts.
Speaker 1: Their fight or flight responses triggered before their feet hit
Speaker 1: the floor, before they're out of bed. They have already,
Speaker 1: through their own behavior, stressed themselves. Yeah, so this is
Speaker 1: where we start to think about objectively, as much as
Speaker 1: we can be objective. Does my morning protocol serve me
Speaker 1: or sabotage me? If I'm being brave and honest and aware,
Speaker 1: it doesn't work? Okay, So don't hate yourself, don't immerse
Speaker 1: yourself in self loathing. Just go hm well, picking up
Speaker 1: my phone while I'm still in bed and scrolling and
Speaker 1: worrying and projecting and thinking about potential future catastrophes is
Speaker 1: actually me getting in my own way. What could be better?
Speaker 1: Oh well, maybe I don't even take my fucking phone
Speaker 1: into the bedroom. Maybe it's down the stairs, in my case,
Speaker 1: downstairs on the kitchen bench. And after I've had a shower,
Speaker 1: shit shave, shampoo and jujed my hair, of which there
Speaker 1: is none, I go downstairs and I turn that motherfucker
Speaker 1: on thirty minutes after I've woken up, and I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: completely different relationship with that thing, and completely different start
Speaker 1: to my day, and completely different state that I am
Speaker 1: in by the time I turn it on, or by
Speaker 1: the time I start to pay attention to things.
Speaker 2: So you know, at the moment, there's people that have
Speaker 2: created these little tiles and they stick them like they
Speaker 2: stick onto your fridge or wherever you want to put them.
Speaker 2: And the basis of these tiles is that they lock
Speaker 2: your phone from certain apps, And so if you really
Speaker 2: really want to get into one of those apps, you
Speaker 2: have to physically go to wherever this tile is, scan it,
Speaker 2: and ask you a couple of questions and then it
Speaker 2: lets you into the phone. And yeah, So obviously there's
Speaker 2: a lot of people that are in this position because
Speaker 2: these things wouldn't be created if people had that control
Speaker 2: over their mind and their reach for their phone, for instance.
Speaker 2: So there's a booming industry right there that's literally helping
Speaker 2: people with that control.
Speaker 1: Do you know that is? Firstly, I didn't know that.
Speaker 1: Thank you for teaching me something to me. That is
Speaker 1: somebody who is and I don't blame them, somebody who
Speaker 1: is exploiting our inability to manage ourselves. Like, here's the thing.
Speaker 1: If I said to you, Kelly, next time you open Instagram, Like,
Speaker 1: if you open Instagram anytime in the next what's the
Speaker 1: app that you use the most? Can I ask? Is
Speaker 1: it Instagram? Is it? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Probably?
Speaker 1: Okay? So if I said to you, Kelly, have you
Speaker 1: got a cat or a dog?
Speaker 2: A cat?
Speaker 1: Okay, if you open Instagram anytime in the next seven days,
Speaker 1: your cat's going to drop dead thirteen seconds later. I
Speaker 1: know this is a ridiculous example, right, you would have
Speaker 1: zero problems with self control, absolutely none. Like if that
Speaker 1: was a and I'm being silly everyone, of course that's
Speaker 1: going to be fine, right, But here's my example. If
Speaker 1: in some parallel reality that concept was real. In other words,
Speaker 1: if you open Instagram in the next seven days, there's
Speaker 1: going to be a dire consequence. You will have absolutely
Speaker 1: zero issues with self control, with discipline, with motivation, with focus,
Speaker 1: You'll have no problems because there's a very significant, undesirable consequence. Now,
Speaker 1: what that example tells us is that right now Kelly
Speaker 1: has the ability easily to not look at ig for example, Instagram,
Speaker 1: for example, for the next seven days if her mind
Speaker 1: is in the right place. Now, what takes it in
Speaker 1: this example, Oh, a dire outcome like something that I
Speaker 1: love being harm Oh, So what does that tell us?
Speaker 1: It tells us that right now you have the capacity,
Speaker 1: not soon, not one day, not like you need a
Speaker 1: pill or you need an app or you need a
Speaker 1: fucking tile on a fridge. It tells us that you
Speaker 1: could do it right now. This is that potential. That's
Speaker 1: what I'm interested in, and that you know that kind
Speaker 1: of why do people wait until they get sick to
Speaker 1: all of a sudden they've got all this fucking self control,
Speaker 1: self restraint, focused, discipline, willpower. And the reason is because
Speaker 1: now they are so scared of dying or being sick
Speaker 1: or something catastrophic happened to them. That that that notion
Speaker 1: of oh, this is optional, that goes this is not optional,
Speaker 1: there's not no this is compulsory. This is absolute. This
Speaker 1: is completely fucking non negotiable. So I'll shut up after this.
Speaker 1: So then you think about, like a thousand times people
Speaker 1: have told me how disciplined I am, right, usually because
Speaker 1: I train every day. Oh, you're doing your Somebody told me, like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, two or three days ago, I can't
Speaker 1: believe how much stuff you do. You work full time,
Speaker 1: you're doing your doctorate, and you're at the gym every day.
Speaker 1: Like you're so focused, you're so bloody inspired, you're so
Speaker 1: all of these things. And I'm like, I'm actually not.
Speaker 1: I'm actually not that disciplined because I like going to
Speaker 1: the gym. Discipline would be going to the gym. If
Speaker 1: I didn't like it, It would take me more discipline
Speaker 1: to have a week off. And so it's that when
Speaker 1: you identify the behaviors that, for you, Kelly Smith, are
Speaker 1: the behaviors that align with who and how you want
Speaker 1: to be, and then you can turn those behaviors over time,
Speaker 1: not quickly, but into hardwired habits or hardwired normals in
Speaker 1: inverted comments like these are normal. This is not me
Speaker 1: being motivated, this is not me being good. Oh look
Speaker 1: at me, everyone, I've eaten a fucking salad. Here's a
Speaker 1: photo on Facebook. Please tell me I'm amazing. All that
Speaker 1: bullshit is toxic and it's disempowering, not empowering, and everyone thinks, oh, yeah, go,
Speaker 1: you go you it's kind of good. I get it.
Speaker 1: I understand the sentiment, but let me tell you, it
Speaker 1: does not help people build resilience over time. If every
Speaker 1: time we do something which is just it's not outstanding
Speaker 1: for you to eat a seal it, that's just what
Speaker 1: you should do. In this example, if you need a
Speaker 1: round of applause or a trophy or a cheer squad
Speaker 1: just for not being a fucking idiot with your body,
Speaker 1: then we're in trouble. You know what I'm saying. And
Speaker 1: this is why real resilience and real mental toughness and
Speaker 1: real self control and real focus and attention, which eventually
Speaker 1: turns into real change is Nellie always about what we
Speaker 1: do when no one's looking, when no one gives a fuck,
Speaker 1: and when no one's cheering. It's so easy to be
Speaker 1: good in inverted commas when you've got a cheer squad.
Speaker 1: Show me what the fuck you're doing when there is
Speaker 1: no cheer squad, when it is not fun, when it
Speaker 1: is not comfortable, when it is not painless, because they
Speaker 1: are the times where you are becoming the fucking weapon.
Speaker 1: That internal transformation doesn't have happen in the spotlight. It
Speaker 1: happens in the shadows.
Speaker 2: That actually leads me to something else that I wanted
Speaker 2: to ask you about as well. And again, just you know,
Speaker 2: I've been filling my brain with all these different podcasts
Speaker 2: and interviews over the past probably seven to ten days,
Speaker 2: and I was at the gym and this is when,
Speaker 2: you know, I get kind of like my moments of
Speaker 2: clarity and my moments of bravado, and I'm like, I'm
Speaker 2: going to text Craig and I'm going to see this
Speaker 2: is the question that I want, And here I go.
Speaker 2: And what the phrase was is that everything you want
Speaker 2: is on the other side of hard. And I thought, okay,
Speaker 2: but what is hard? Like what does that mean to
Speaker 2: individual people? And what is it to actually work towards
Speaker 2: get through know that you're on the other side of it,
Speaker 2: particularly when you can kind of frame it as what
Speaker 2: you once thought was hard, you've got to that point
Speaker 2: and it's not hard anymore because you've been putting in
Speaker 2: all the work. So that kind of shifts. And then
Speaker 2: is it you know, is it that the what's the saying?
Speaker 2: You know that the journey is the destination, So therefore
Speaker 2: when you're working towards it, that's you know, you're you're
Speaker 2: either building your muscles, you're training your brain, you're getting fitter. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that really fascinated me that it was such a blanket
Speaker 2: statement of everything you want is on the other side
Speaker 2: of hard.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Also, you've got to remember these memes and cliches
Speaker 1: and expressions are that they're not They're not universally true
Speaker 1: for everything in every situation. I mean, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of you know, there's a lot of beauty and joy
Speaker 1: and awesomeness right where we are right now, and maybe
Speaker 1: that came through toil and pain and hardship, who knows.
Speaker 1: But as a concept, I think there's a lot. I
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of truth in it in that,
Speaker 1: you know what, most people who are listening to this,
Speaker 1: I'm going to be presumptuous, but I think I know
Speaker 1: my audience pretty well, and I think a lot of
Speaker 1: the people who listen to this want growth and improvement
Speaker 1: and change, transformation whatever they want to. As I always say,
Speaker 1: think better, do better, produce better, create better, make better decisions,
Speaker 1: produce better outcomes. All of that is development and evolution
Speaker 1: and growth. And I think if we try to analyze
Speaker 1: evolution and growth and development, where do those Where do
Speaker 1: those things happen? Or they happen in the middle of
Speaker 1: the doing, and generally the doing is pretty or it
Speaker 1: can be tough and uncomfortable, or in the context of
Speaker 1: your question, it can be in the middle of the hard.
Speaker 1: And as you quite rightly point out, it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe it's not just on the other you know. It's
Speaker 1: like you go to the gym, you work hard, you
Speaker 1: do that three months, six months. The net result is
Speaker 1: you build muscle, you improve function, you improve range of movement,
Speaker 1: you lose body fat, you change your body composition, and
Speaker 1: now your body looks and feels and functions better than
Speaker 1: it did. And now you've got this reward on the
Speaker 1: other side of the three to six months that you
Speaker 1: just put in. Beautiful, that's a great example. Now my
Speaker 1: body works better looks better, feels better, recovers better, sleeps better.
Speaker 1: All this shit that is a byproduct of doing the
Speaker 1: hard right. So that's a physiological outcome, But what is
Speaker 1: also true is what's what's acquired and what's achieved in
Speaker 1: the middle of the hard, Like, well, here, yes, I
Speaker 1: did all of these things, and I changed my body,
Speaker 1: But guess what else. I changed my thinking, I changed
Speaker 1: my default setting, I changed my standards, I changed my
Speaker 1: capacity to deal with hard stuff. I built my resilience.
Speaker 1: I've built my knowledge and confidence and awareness in this
Speaker 1: environment that I wasn't very confident in. And now I
Speaker 1: walk into the gym like a fucking gangster. Six months
Speaker 1: after I crawled in and I didn't want anyone to
Speaker 1: see me right, and my self esteem was through the
Speaker 1: flo And it's not like now I've got a fat head,
Speaker 1: but it's like now I know that I'm okay, I
Speaker 1: know I'm not useless, I know that I'm I belong there,
Speaker 1: and I feel so emotionally and mentally there's been this
Speaker 1: shift as well as this physiologic of this observable outcome
Speaker 1: that is my body. We could say that with me
Speaker 1: doing a PhD, it's like, sure, I've spoken about the
Speaker 1: term all the academic and psychologic and emotional and sociological
Speaker 1: turmoil of the first year or two for me, where
Speaker 1: I felt like a total fraud, and I may have
Speaker 1: even been one and not not anything enough. Right, But
Speaker 1: now you go, well, fuck Craig. Six years later, surely
Speaker 1: there's been some growth. There has There has, And it's
Speaker 1: not because I'm special or great. It's because I just
Speaker 1: kept showing up. And now am I a brilliant academic?
Speaker 1: One hundred percent? Not? Am I a way better academic
Speaker 1: than I was? Yes? Do I understand things that I
Speaker 1: did not? One hundred percent? Do I have more skill
Speaker 1: and knowledge and context than a different perspective? I absolutely do.
Speaker 1: Oh how did that happen? Just lucky Nope, just kept
Speaker 1: fucking showing up doing this hard thing, you know, and
Speaker 1: then you come out and you go, all right, cool,
Speaker 1: doctor Harp's fantastic, that's nice, well done, good fur ego.
Speaker 1: You know, Melissa's looking forward to booking me air tickets
Speaker 1: under doctor Harper, which is fucking hilarious, and all of
Speaker 1: that's very nice. But really what is great is kind
Speaker 1: of the internal stuff that I've gained, the confidence and
Speaker 1: the understanding and the knowledge in the awareness and the
Speaker 1: increased capacity to serve and help like there, and it
Speaker 1: happens during it. And yes, they're on the other side
Speaker 1: of in this case the PhD or the previous example,
Speaker 1: six months in the gym, which hopefully becomes forever in
Speaker 1: the gym for most people. Yeah, there is a reward
Speaker 1: on the other side of hard, but I think there's
Speaker 1: also a reward in the middle of hard. I don't
Speaker 1: think we need to put it. I don't think the
Speaker 1: benefits are you know, exclusive to post event.
Speaker 2: No, I don't think that there's And this is why
Speaker 2: I wanted to talk about it with you, because I
Speaker 2: don't think that there's a point of it being final,
Speaker 2: like for me and I know for a lot of
Speaker 2: other people that I talk with and who I listened to,
Speaker 2: it's it's constant the work. So therefore the concept of hard,
Speaker 2: it just keeps shifting and it's what you interpret hard
Speaker 2: to be. And I feel like if you're constantly looking
Speaker 2: at it like, oh my god, that's so hard, you're
Speaker 2: never going to get anywhere. But if it's just okay, well,
Speaker 2: I'm putting in the work, and as you say, I'm
Speaker 2: showing up. Then that idea of it being hard becomes,
Speaker 2: as you say, like you're default, like you're just you're existing,
Speaker 2: You're doing, you're doing what it is to be you,
Speaker 2: and the constant growth and the constant learning, and that's yeah. Again,
Speaker 2: that's why I wanted to discuss it, because it just
Speaker 2: I remember listening to it and I thought, that's just
Speaker 2: such a blanket statement that I actually didn't agree with.
Speaker 2: And it's not often that I will listen to things
Speaker 2: and go, you know what, like, I don't agree with that,
Speaker 2: and who am I even say I don't agree with it?
Speaker 1: But I just thought, you know, okay, stop right now.
Speaker 1: You you're thinking, and your opinion, and your is just
Speaker 1: as valuable as any fucking person. Be it Oprah, be
Speaker 1: it doctor Phil, be it me. I'm not putting me
Speaker 1: in that category. But you know this is the thing,
Speaker 1: like you, I'm not saying this just because we're here.
Speaker 1: I think you know this. I think you've got a
Speaker 1: brilliant mind. I think what gets in the way of
Speaker 1: your brilliant mind is your fear. And I feel like
Speaker 1: I'm coaching you now, but you know that this is
Speaker 1: not a revelation. And I think I think I hope
Speaker 1: you're comfortable with me saying I think you doing these
Speaker 1: shows with me where we've I mean this with complete respect.
Speaker 1: Just got a regular human just sitting and asking me stuff. Right,
Speaker 1: you being the regular but gifted, brilliant human. Right, this
Speaker 1: is hard for you. And let's go full disclosure and
Speaker 1: full vulnerability. Last time we did one, at the end,
Speaker 1: you're like, I think I was a bit shit. I'm like,
Speaker 1: you definitely weren't shit. But but that wasn't the best
Speaker 1: one we've done, right, and so but it was fine,
Speaker 1: it was fine. But how do you get great? Well,
Speaker 1: you start by being not great, you know, and it's
Speaker 1: not great compared to it's great for Kelly, or it's
Speaker 1: great for Craig or this is me, you know. And
Speaker 1: also think about this, like if we have asked the
Speaker 1: world famous just recently invented right now, Craig Harper Hard scale,
Speaker 1: the one to ten, let's go the one to seven
Speaker 1: like art scale, the Craig Harper Hard scale, and we go, Kelly,
Speaker 1: how hard is this thing for you? It's just a
Speaker 1: subjective rating, and you go, oh fuck, that's a seven.
Speaker 1: That's a seven. I'm like, cool, So let's go to work,
Speaker 1: and let's keep doing this thing. Let's develop whatever the
Speaker 1: thing is, let's get better at it, let's understand it,
Speaker 1: let's try it different ways, let's let's let's invest some
Speaker 1: time in it. And then then a month later you're
Speaker 1: doing the same thing. I'm like, Kelly, how hard is
Speaker 1: this for you? Now? You go three and I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh wow. And then I come back, you know, three
Speaker 1: months down the track, and I go, how hard is
Speaker 1: it now? And you go, It's not hard at all,
Speaker 1: Like it's a zero, it's not hard. I go, well,
Speaker 1: what do you mean? See? Because hard, like, nothing is
Speaker 1: hard until there's a person in front of it describing it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: You know, there are people that go through shit which
Speaker 1: I'm like, how how on earth do they get through that?
Speaker 1: And they get through it, and it might yeah, it
Speaker 1: might be hard, but it might be a too hard
Speaker 1: for them two out of ten, or it might be
Speaker 1: someone else at fifteen out of ten. But the thing is,
Speaker 1: you're your understanding of hard or we could say difficult
Speaker 1: or adversity or painful, or they're all kind of first
Speaker 1: cousins in the adjective kind of fucking world. We go
Speaker 1: your relationship with that or your perspective of that changes
Speaker 1: when you're different. Yes, what we're saying is this is
Speaker 1: not hard. Categorically we're saying this is hard for me.
Speaker 1: Ah ah, okay, like lifting one hundred whatevers easy. Oh
Speaker 1: not for that bloke, For that bloke, it's impossible. For
Speaker 1: that bloke over there, it's super easy. Or for that
Speaker 1: girl this run is a piece of cake. For that
Speaker 1: other girl or lady, it's impossible. For Kelly, it's solid.
Speaker 1: So things are whatever they are to us, you know.
Speaker 1: So when you go this is scary, the truth is
Speaker 1: this is scary for me now, but it might not
Speaker 1: be scary for me in a month. Or this is
Speaker 1: heavy now, but if I train, and I use progressive overload,
Speaker 1: this scientific principle I eat well, train well, recover well,
Speaker 1: use my brain, this heavyweight will not be heavy for
Speaker 1: me soon, despite the fact that it's a constant and
Speaker 1: I'm the variable. Oh fuck, Kelly, come on, come on, brothers.
Speaker 2: And then suddenly we're building like either the you know,
Speaker 2: the physical muscle or the mental muscle, which is exactly
Speaker 2: what's happened for me during all of this. So yeah,
Speaker 2: and I did come off an episode with you and
Speaker 2: I thought oh my god, like I've just actually messaged
Speaker 2: Tiff and I went, I think I just shit the bed,
Speaker 2: and she goes, what the fuck are you talking about?
Speaker 2: And then I listened to it back and I thought, no, okay, yep,
Speaker 2: well I can I can learn from this and I
Speaker 2: can see what I can do differently, And that was
Speaker 2: that was good. It was good for me because it
Speaker 2: wasn't just you know, here I am and you know
Speaker 2: I'm wonderful straight out of the gate. It's no, this
Speaker 2: is it's a constant evolution of learning and growing. And
Speaker 2: I guess the idea of positive thinking comes into that
Speaker 2: for me because I'm really I've said it many times,
Speaker 2: like I'm really enjoying doing all of this, and then
Speaker 2: it comes to a few other things at the moment
Speaker 2: it's like, well, how do I flip my thinking so
Speaker 2: that I'm enjoying it just as much and I'm bringing
Speaker 2: the same enthusiasm and slowly chipping away at that going
Speaker 2: you know what, like, yeah, I was terrified the first
Speaker 2: time I put it out there, of you know, hey,
Speaker 2: can I come and ask you the questions? And it's
Speaker 2: now just having I guess that is it bravado to
Speaker 2: just kind of go in every other situation, Hey, can
Speaker 2: I just step into this space whether I'm ready to
Speaker 2: or not, and just do it? And you said to
Speaker 2: me recently, you know, here's a thought, just do it scared,
Speaker 2: And that's really stuck with me. And so the idea
Speaker 2: of just doing it scared is it's actually bringing some
Speaker 2: and you know you won't be surprised by this, it's
Speaker 2: bringing some results because I'm just you know, just dipping
Speaker 2: my toe in there saying, you know, I'm not ready,
Speaker 2: but if I wait to be ready, I'll never be there.
Speaker 2: And then, you know, to go back to what we
Speaker 2: were just talking about, everything will always seem hard if
Speaker 2: I don't give it a crack.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, And if you if you are not, and
Speaker 1: I'm talking to you and our listeners, if you are
Speaker 1: not doing hard things pretty regularly, then there's a fair
Speaker 1: chance that you are being controlled by, if not at
Speaker 1: the very least limited by fear. Right, A lot of
Speaker 1: the things that I need to do to get where
Speaker 1: I want to go and do what I want to
Speaker 1: do are not the things that I want to do,
Speaker 1: especially initially, because what I want to do is I
Speaker 1: want to be comfortable. What I want to do is
Speaker 1: a cake what I want to do, you know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying. It's like if it was just about what
Speaker 1: is comfortable for me or familiar for me or easy
Speaker 1: for me, which of course is the preferred option general,
Speaker 1: But there's no you know for me, there's no growth
Speaker 1: in that, and there's no you know. And it's not
Speaker 1: that every day has got to be this day of
Speaker 1: it's got to be every day. It's got to be
Speaker 1: a day of bloody conquering mountains and striving and grinding.
Speaker 1: And you know, I've said I happily have fuck all
Speaker 1: days where I do fuck all, achieve fuck all, and
Speaker 1: you know, all of that's great. But I think for
Speaker 1: the most part, most of the time, most of us
Speaker 1: who are in this personal development you know, growth mindset
Speaker 1: kind of human behavior space where we're really thinking about
Speaker 1: what we do and why we do it and how
Speaker 1: we are and who we are, most of us want
Speaker 1: to be evolving, you know, or at the very least
Speaker 1: eliminating shitty behaviors that hold us back, you know, eliminating
Speaker 1: not all You're never going to eliminate all self doubt
Speaker 1: and overthinking, but let's turn the volume down on that shit.
Speaker 1: A little bit, and and you know, realize that like
Speaker 1: every podcast that I do, every podcast there are, if
Speaker 1: I went back and listened, the reason I don't listen
Speaker 1: is because I don't like listening. I've I would say,
Speaker 1: I've listened to one podcast in totality of my own,
Speaker 1: like start, Finish so, and there's over two thousand. I
Speaker 1: don't listen because I don't love my own voice. I
Speaker 1: don't like my own voice just like everyone else. And
Speaker 1: I just find too many things wrong with every fucking episode.
Speaker 1: But I realize that there's no bigger It's like when
Speaker 1: people criticize me, I'm like, try harder. There's no harsher
Speaker 1: critic of me than me. He can say whatever you want.
Speaker 1: It's like you think, you think that I'm like I
Speaker 1: And it's like sometimes people like you're a dumbcunt. I'm like, yep,
Speaker 1: sure I agree, and then they've got nowhere to go.
Speaker 1: I go, you are right, or you fucked that up.
Speaker 1: I'm like, yes, I did you got that wrong? Yes
Speaker 1: I did get that wrong. And I will get more
Speaker 1: things wrong and I will fuck up, but I tell
Speaker 1: you what, I won't I won't give up. That's it.
Speaker 1: Like I'm not giving up. So you can say all
Speaker 1: the shit you want to me, but you cannot hijack
Speaker 1: my brain. You cannot, you cannot kill my spirit because
Speaker 1: that's just me wanting to keep doing what I'm doing,
Speaker 1: and that is optional. So all the names, all the criticism,
Speaker 1: I don't love it, but I've had it. I'm used
Speaker 1: to it. Fortunately these days we're wh're got the wind
Speaker 1: behind our back and we've actually got more people that
Speaker 1: like us than don't, which is thanks, by the way, Thanks,
Speaker 1: that's nice. You know, there's more niceness than nastiness, but
Speaker 1: that you know, ability to go, well, I'm scared, and
Speaker 1: that's all right. This will be hard. I don't kind
Speaker 1: of want to do it, but I'm going to do
Speaker 1: it nonetheless because i want the outcome of what doing
Speaker 1: that hard thing brings me or I think will bring me.
Speaker 1: And this is just I think this is just part
Speaker 1: of the being very very grounded and practical about how
Speaker 1: growth works. Like how growth works is it's fucking hard
Speaker 1: the end. Sometimes it's not so, but a lot of
Speaker 1: times it's fucking hard. It's uncomfortable, it's inconvenient, and they
Speaker 1: are all things that people don't want. Then as I've
Speaker 1: said a hundred times, a thousand times, that's the dichotomy.
Speaker 1: On the one hand, people want to change, grow, learn, evolve,
Speaker 1: get better. On the other hand, they want to stay comfortable.
Speaker 1: Fucking make a choice, bro.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's where all the hard work comes in or not,
Speaker 2: depending on what choice you make. I'm going to ask
Speaker 2: you something that might be a bit of a out
Speaker 2: there philosophical question, but I think it goes hand in
Speaker 2: hand with different levels of managing your mind, and that is,
Speaker 2: what do you think of manifesting? And I asked this
Speaker 2: because I had a conversation with someone recently who very
Speaker 2: strongly believes in the power of manifesting their thoughts. And
Speaker 2: I said, well, explain it to me, Like, do I
Speaker 2: just have to think that I can do something? And
Speaker 2: like if I think on it enough, if I really
Speaker 2: believe it, then there's kind of a possibility that will happen.
Speaker 2: And he said, no, no, no, it's actually knowing that
Speaker 2: you can do it. It's actually visualizing yourself with what
Speaker 2: it is that you want. And he has quite a
Speaker 2: successful business that's released many different products, and he said,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have what I have without inherently believing and
Speaker 2: knowing and almost picturing in my mind's eye me doing
Speaker 2: that and having that and building that and working towards that.
Speaker 2: And I thought, whether or not that's true. I found
Speaker 2: it really inspiring that he had that belief in himself
Speaker 2: and was obviously putting in the work. But it was
Speaker 2: the work going hand in hand with the belief.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so belief by itself will do fuck all law
Speaker 1: of attraction manifesting. If all you're doing is sitting on
Speaker 1: the couch thinking, knowing that you can be successful while
Speaker 1: not doing any work to be successful, it doesn't work.
Speaker 1: So the key there is that you said that he
Speaker 1: did the work, that he made decisions. Now, really, what
Speaker 1: I think you're talking about. What he's figured out is
Speaker 1: that self belief matters. So he believed he could do
Speaker 1: it before he did it. That's good. I like that.
Speaker 1: Most people almost need to do it before they have
Speaker 1: any self belief. But I think if you can, I mean,
Speaker 1: and of course we need this to be logical. If
Speaker 1: I know that I can run a two hour marathon,
Speaker 1: well I'm elluded because I cannot run a two hour
Speaker 1: marathon like I think. Then I think this inspiration and
Speaker 1: this self belief needs to be moderated with logic and strategy.
Speaker 1: But you know, speaking of you know, back to positive thinking.
Speaker 1: You know, I can do this, I can do that.
Speaker 1: That's positive thinking. And if this dude spends time sitting
Speaker 1: on the couch thinking these things. But also I'm not
Speaker 1: against that by the way people think I would hate
Speaker 1: I don't hate that at all. I think, fuck yeah,
Speaker 1: you know. But and this is why we need to go.
Speaker 1: When I was about to say to you, what do
Speaker 1: you mean by that, because I can't tell you what
Speaker 1: I think of something that hasn't been clarified. But when
Speaker 1: you explain it that way and his process, see, here's
Speaker 1: the difference between a lot of law of attraction. And
Speaker 1: this is just my understanding. Well, and maybe this is
Speaker 1: wrong because I've never done a deep dive, but it
Speaker 1: kind of sounds like at times that some people are
Speaker 1: saying that we focus on it, we belive that and
Speaker 1: it will come to you ergo attraction. Well, I kind
Speaker 1: of think for the most part, we've got to go
Speaker 1: to it. We've got to go fucking chase it, find it,
Speaker 1: grind it, build it, create it, and then inhabit it.
Speaker 1: You know, like I could have sat downstairs in my studio.
Speaker 1: I'm upstairs in my office right now, everyone thinking I
Speaker 1: deserve a successful podcast. And the first podcast that I did,
Speaker 1: the Australian Fitness podcast, didn't work, and then the next
Speaker 1: one that I did didn't work. If we're talking about
Speaker 1: being a successful commercial enterprise, didn't work, and then the
Speaker 1: next one didn't work. And then the you projects started
Speaker 1: two years after the first go right two years and
Speaker 1: then two years later, So that's four years of podcasting.
Speaker 1: I'm still not making money right. There's no fucking law
Speaker 1: of attraction there. This is me just working like a motherfucker,
Speaker 1: trying to learn, trying to build something Like you need
Speaker 1: to go to it. I think you need to be
Speaker 1: the what you need to be the one going to
Speaker 1: rather than it coming to you. I think a bit
Speaker 1: of both. But yeah, I think if the mindset stuff
Speaker 1: is only mindset with no action plan, with no behavior,
Speaker 1: with no courage, uh, it's it's ain't going to produce anything.
Speaker 1: But if you have that, you know that law of attraction,
Speaker 1: positive affirmation, whole thing going on and by the way,
Speaker 1: not mad at it at all, and you have that
Speaker 1: kind of that is intertwined with strategy and logic and
Speaker 1: work and courage and effort and consistency, then you can
Speaker 1: do something special. I think it's part of the puzzle
Speaker 1: or part of a solution. It's not a solution on
Speaker 1: its own.
Speaker 2: No. No, And even in just you know, explaining it
Speaker 2: to you just then, it was it just absolutely light
Speaker 2: bulb moment of No, he's actually doing the work as
Speaker 2: well as believing in himself. So when you were just
Speaker 2: mentioning that you started off with two other podcasts before this,
Speaker 2: did you always believe in yourself that it would go
Speaker 2: somewhere or were there moments that you were like, oh
Speaker 2: my god, what am I doing?
Speaker 1: Okay, that's a very good question, so I'm going to
Speaker 1: be very specific about my answer. I always knew that
Speaker 1: I could. I didn't know that I would.
Speaker 2: Okay, I surround that for you though.
Speaker 1: Well, I knew that I had the ability and the talent.
Speaker 1: Well I thought I did, and I thought I had
Speaker 1: that kind of personality and people skills. And it's not like, wow,
Speaker 1: look at us. Now, We're in fucking nine hundred countries
Speaker 1: and we turn on six million a month. Right, So
Speaker 1: I'm just a shitkicker in Melbourne who's got a pretty
Speaker 1: good podcast. Right, So that's it. Let's not get too
Speaker 1: ahead of ourselves. But I was, by the way, I've
Speaker 1: been sure about many things and been wrong. But for
Speaker 1: what it's worth, I was sure that I could do it,
Speaker 1: but I didn't know if I if it would happen.
Speaker 1: Like I'll give you another example of things that I
Speaker 1: know that I could do, but I probably never will.
Speaker 1: So I've done bits and pieces of Telly, as you know.
Speaker 1: So I worked on Channel ten for a while, a
Speaker 1: weekly gig, and from when I started that, people like, oh,
Speaker 1: you're good on Telly. Telly, Telly works for you. You're
Speaker 1: going to end up doing TV. And to be honest,
Speaker 1: it wasn't like a driving passion of mine. It just
Speaker 1: ended up where every time I did TV, nearly every time,
Speaker 1: I got pretty good feedback and I'm like, well, maybe
Speaker 1: I could do this. And then I got offered to
Speaker 1: screen tests for a pilot for the ABC called The
Speaker 1: Life Coach, and so I flew to Sydney and I
Speaker 1: did this whole pilot program, or I did recorded a show.
Speaker 1: It was a pilot and it was with myself and
Speaker 1: another lady. I was kind of the lead, kind of
Speaker 1: I guess driving host and she was like a co host.
Speaker 1: But great. I think there was about seventy people in
Speaker 1: the room, live audience. Blah blah blah. Went great, It
Speaker 1: went really well. And a production company was doing it
Speaker 1: for the ABC. And this was kind of like my interview,
Speaker 1: like a high level interview like camera's light's action real.
Speaker 1: It was recorded as a real episode. And even I
Speaker 1: came away thinking in fact that I did Alright, that
Speaker 1: was pretty good. That was like my natural habit, that's
Speaker 1: me doing that. And then I came away from that
Speaker 1: and the people that you know, they're like, that was great.
Speaker 1: It's not a matter of if, but just when thumbs
Speaker 1: up every like slaps on the back obviously never happened, right,
Speaker 1: and so things like that. Where do I know that
Speaker 1: I could do something like that? Yeah, well do I know?
Speaker 1: I don't. Well, I did one, right, I'm pretty sure
Speaker 1: I could do I think that will I will ever
Speaker 1: get that opportunity? No, I don't do I think I
Speaker 1: could talk to ten thousand people at Rod Laver Arena
Speaker 1: for three hours and do a good job. I do
Speaker 1: I think I could do that? Do I think I
Speaker 1: will ever do that? Get that chance? Probably? Not right,
Speaker 1: So that's not me being egotistical or me beating myself up.
Speaker 1: Do I think I could go and sing for a
Speaker 1: hundred people and be good? No? Do I think I
Speaker 1: could do all the shit that Melissa can do with tech? No?
Speaker 1: Do I think I could do stand up comedy for
Speaker 1: half an hour and be funny? No? Because I'd shit
Speaker 1: myself and I'm too fucking terrified. Right, Look, maybe I could.
Speaker 1: I don't know. But like, there are things that I'm
Speaker 1: pretty sure I could do that I will never do
Speaker 1: and that's okay. And there are things that I didn't
Speaker 1: think I could do that it turns out I can.
Speaker 1: That have been a gift and yeah, it's like I
Speaker 1: think and all of that's okay. It's like I'm gonna
Speaker 1: be good at some things and terrible at other things
Speaker 1: and yeah, cool, Like yep, it's like we don't. Well,
Speaker 1: you don't have to be good at everything. You can
Speaker 1: be a complete fuck up and still a great human.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Kelly can't sing for shit, but fuck I
Speaker 1: love her. She's hilarious and awesome and she's my friend.
Speaker 1: But she sings like a fucking cats, you know.
Speaker 2: Or whatever, it's true, I do I do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, or you know, like I've got friends that are
Speaker 1: really smart but not fucking funny at all. I'm like, dude,
Speaker 1: you are a genius. Please don't tell a joke like stop,
Speaker 1: You're not fucking funny, you know.
Speaker 2: I put that in the same category like that awareness
Speaker 2: of I probably could, but it's whether or not I would.
Speaker 2: That to me is kind of like not having the
Speaker 2: answer to everything, and I find that a really humbling
Speaker 2: thing as well, Like there's i'd heard it said, you
Speaker 2: know that one of the most intelligent things to say
Speaker 2: is I don't know when you actually don't know something,
Speaker 2: rather than trying to fudge it. And I experienced that
Speaker 2: at a work event a few weeks ago where someone
Speaker 2: he was presenting he was asked a question and just
Speaker 2: immediately said, I don't know the answer to that yet,
Speaker 2: but leave it with me and I'll come back to you.
Speaker 2: And I just thought, well done. And he came up
Speaker 2: to me afterwards and I said, you know what, like,
Speaker 2: if you had have tried to have made something up
Speaker 2: on the spot, they would have eaten you alive. So
Speaker 2: it was so good for you to actually admit that
Speaker 2: you didn't know the answer and actually get them on
Speaker 2: side and say I'll come back to you, because then
Speaker 2: you've also got the pathway open to reconnect with them.
Speaker 2: And it was nice to be able to say that
Speaker 2: to somebody in that space and have them like he
Speaker 2: responded with, Oh, okay, great, I'm glad that it was
Speaker 2: viewed that way. But yeah, that sits up there for me,
Speaker 2: that you know, knowing what you can do without having
Speaker 2: the ego intertwined, and then also admitting what you can't do.
Speaker 2: I think that both of those things are really powerful one.
Speaker 1: Hundred percent, and also how exhausting is it? What an
Speaker 1: emotional and psychological burden having to know everything like no,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I used to, as you know, I
Speaker 1: did a lot of radio. I would get asked questions
Speaker 1: all the time on radio, and often generally they are
Speaker 1: about an injury. It was usually a medical question, and
Speaker 1: to be honest, quite often I thought I knew the
Speaker 1: answer or I would give them. I would answer in
Speaker 1: a way where I wasn't giving them a prescription, but
Speaker 1: I would have to say, I'm not a doctor, I'm
Speaker 1: not a physiotherapist, I'm not a surgeon, so that the
Speaker 1: actual answer is also, i've never met you, also, Brian,
Speaker 1: I haven't seen your knee, right, but based on what
Speaker 1: you're saying, it could be this. But the actual answer
Speaker 1: is I don't know. Yep, the actual answer is I
Speaker 1: don't know. And also even if I was a surgeon
Speaker 1: or a doctor me assessing something via the radio without
Speaker 1: seeing you, meeting you, looking at your knee, doing any
Speaker 1: kind of testing, you know, And and yeah, but I
Speaker 1: just think that you know, we're all we're all a
Speaker 1: bit brilliant, all a bit broken. The more the more
Speaker 1: authentic you can be. And I know that's an Ivus term,
Speaker 1: but just fuck it. It's like it's too like trying to
Speaker 1: be everything for it and trying to be like the
Speaker 1: idea of like for me. Just like saying you don't know,
Speaker 1: not only is it the right thing to do, it's
Speaker 1: also well what else would you say? It's like, of
Speaker 1: course you don't know, Like of all the things there
Speaker 1: are to know, I'm speaking for myself, of all the
Speaker 1: things there are to know, I clearly know less than
Speaker 1: point zero zero zero zero one percent of the things
Speaker 1: that exist in the world that I could know about
Speaker 1: or know of or understand or have it. I don't know,
Speaker 1: Like of all there is to know, I essentially know
Speaker 1: nothing all I know about. And even then this is
Speaker 1: self awareness. Even then the things that I know in
Speaker 1: inverted commas, nudge, nudge, wink wink, I find out I
Speaker 1: was wrong. So I didn't know it at all. I
Speaker 1: just thought I knew it. I thought I knew the
Speaker 1: food pyramid was the best way to eat. I thought
Speaker 1: I knew how to get to heaven because I grew up. Firstly,
Speaker 1: I thought there was a heaven. May or may not
Speaker 1: be not sure. That's me being brave and honest. Part
Speaker 1: of me still feels guilty. I thought I knew the
Speaker 1: best religious protocol and operating system because apparently I grew
Speaker 1: up in it. I didn't know anything. I just thought
Speaker 1: I knew. And this is the distinction. This is the
Speaker 1: awareness of going, actually I don't know, because he's here.
Speaker 1: This is a brain fuck that we think, oh, well,
Speaker 1: here's what I know. No, no, no, no, no, here's what
Speaker 1: I think I know. What you absolutely one hundred percent
Speaker 1: no chance of being wrong. What you absolutely know is
Speaker 1: probably not that much. What you think you know. What
Speaker 1: you're sure you know is probably a lot. And it
Speaker 1: might turn out that a lot of what you think
Speaker 1: you know you're right about. But also because you're human
Speaker 1: and because you're flawed, and because you get shit wrong,
Speaker 1: it turns out there's probably going to be a fair
Speaker 1: percentage of the stuff that you know that you actually
Speaker 1: don't know absolutely.
Speaker 2: So when did you get comfortable with being wrong? Because
Speaker 2: that's something at the moment for me that like I've
Speaker 2: spent and people closest to me, will you know, tell
Speaker 2: you that I think I know everything, and you know,
Speaker 2: I'll argue until I'm blowing the face, no it's this,
Speaker 2: it's this, it's this, and then I go, ah, shit,
Speaker 2: it's not that. And I would normally just kind of
Speaker 2: let it for a long time, we'd just let that go.
Speaker 2: You know, I fought so hard thinking that I was
Speaker 2: right about something, and now I'm learning how to be
Speaker 2: comfortable and saying, actually I need to apologize because I
Speaker 2: was wrong about that. And I fought really hard to
Speaker 2: get my point across on something that I thought I
Speaker 2: was right about when actually I wasn't. So when when
Speaker 2: did that happen for you? Like being comfortable with either
Speaker 2: being wrong or just not knowing.
Speaker 1: I used to get a lot of my sense of
Speaker 1: self worth from what I thought I knew right, And
Speaker 1: so when when being right in inverted commas, when being
Speaker 1: right and knowing in inverted commas, is intertwined with my identity. Right, Oh,
Speaker 1: I am a Catholic, I am a Buddhist, I am
Speaker 1: a Mormon, I am a whatever. I am a vegan,
Speaker 1: I am a democrat, I am a Republican. I am
Speaker 1: a Carlton supporter. I am I am these Literally, we're
Speaker 1: describing ourselves. We're going, I am a not I believe
Speaker 1: in this or I think that we're going. I am
Speaker 1: These are statements of identity. Now, when your identity is
Speaker 1: intertwined with an idea or a belief or what you
Speaker 1: think is absolute knowledge, of course you're closed minded. Now.
Speaker 2: Oh that's a cult though, isn't it.
Speaker 1: Well, if you question my knowledge, you question my identity,
Speaker 1: and who the fuck are you to question my identity?
Speaker 1: So the moment that you question the thing that I
Speaker 1: unequivoc believed to be true, my knowledge, then I shut
Speaker 1: down to you because you don't agree with me. You're
Speaker 1: not in my echo chamber. You don't support my confirmation bias.
Speaker 1: You're the enemy. Not only you, the enemy. I hate
Speaker 1: you now And that sounds drastic, That fucking that is
Speaker 1: how the world works to an extent. Look at the hatred.
Speaker 1: What's the hatred about? It's about division, It's about you
Speaker 1: think A. We think b where the one true whatever
Speaker 1: you're not, and the other groups going no where the
Speaker 1: one true ever, whatever you're not. So we think we
Speaker 1: are the most evolved species. We are the most stupid,
Speaker 1: fucking yet intelligent, shut down, emotionally fucking crippled species of
Speaker 1: all time. Like especially now, it seems to be there's more.
Speaker 1: I'm probably gonna get in trouble for this, but to me,
Speaker 1: outside looking in and inside looking out, there's just more
Speaker 1: stupidity and ignorance and intolerance because everyone thinks they're right.
Speaker 1: I think if your starting point is I know that
Speaker 1: I'm wrong a lot, and I'll probably get things wrong today.
Speaker 1: And even though I strongly believe this, and the best
Speaker 1: example I can give, which I've given many times, is,
Speaker 1: you know my belief in God, which, depending on which
Speaker 1: lends you look through, that could be considered completely irrational.
Speaker 1: And if somebody said, Craig, that's completely irrational, I would
Speaker 1: say to them, I respect that. If somebody said to me, Craig,
Speaker 1: I'm with you, I'd say I respect that, right, because
Speaker 1: this is just what I think. Like, if I could
Speaker 1: prove that there is a God, I would now have unequivocal,
Speaker 1: absolute data evidence knowledge. I don't, So what I have
Speaker 1: is faith. By the way, don't look at me as
Speaker 1: any kind of role model for any kind of faith,
Speaker 1: because I'm the sweary motherfucker who has the U project,
Speaker 1: So definitely don't pay attention to my model of religion
Speaker 1: or spirituality. But look, I think.
Speaker 2: I have far more faith in the sweary people than
Speaker 2: the people that you know pretend to be otherwise, because
Speaker 2: it's just been so dishonest to say, nah, no, never swear.
Speaker 1: Oh well, I've been around a lot of religious people
Speaker 1: who trust me, swearing would be a big, big, big,
Speaker 1: big improvement on what they actually do when no one's
Speaker 1: looking exactly But you know, don't. One of my pastors
Speaker 1: used to say to me this, and Christians will get
Speaker 1: this more, and I think my audience will get it too.
Speaker 1: But he's like, even the devil knows the Bible, right,
Speaker 1: the devil knows the scriptures too, right. It's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like you can read stuff, you can know stuff,
Speaker 1: you can It's like you can know every you can
Speaker 1: quote the Bible. You can, but it doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: you're living any kind of particular life one way or
Speaker 1: the other. It just means that you've memorized some shit, right.
Speaker 1: It's just like, Oh, I own a tracksuit, that doesn't
Speaker 1: make me an athlete. I have a gym membership that
Speaker 1: doesn't make me strong. I have a degree that doesn't
Speaker 1: make me smart. What I do with the degree makes
Speaker 1: me smart. What I do in the gym makes me strong.
Speaker 1: What I do with the knowledge that I get from
Speaker 1: the Bible, or the inspiration from what I do with
Speaker 1: that might make me a godly person or not, or
Speaker 1: a good Christian or a good Buddhist or a good
Speaker 1: fill in the blank, whatever religion that you are, whatever
Speaker 1: your faith is. It's like, yeah, this is you know.
Speaker 1: Knowledge on its own is inert and we need it.
Speaker 1: We need it, but just unless it's operationalized. It's like
Speaker 1: I don't want to I don't want to piss anyone
Speaker 1: off as we finish the show, but I think if
Speaker 1: our listeners will being big and brave and bold, and
Speaker 1: because I have done this and you have done this,
Speaker 1: how many of our listeners have heard information or inspiration
Speaker 1: or ideas over the course of their listening experience on
Speaker 1: the You Project and nodded their head and gone, fuck, yah,
Speaker 1: that's me all got to do all and then not
Speaker 1: done it everyone, every listener and the bloke who's talking
Speaker 1: right now. So you know, it still comes down to
Speaker 1: like knowing stuff is good, but what you do with
Speaker 1: what you know is actually what counts.
Speaker 2: Goes back to what you said before, and it's what
Speaker 2: you do, and no one's looking.
Speaker 1: Correct correct, Well, you did way better this time. I
Speaker 1: probably shouldn't give you an elephants stamp on air, but
Speaker 1: fucking two elephant stamps for you.
Speaker 2: Fantastic, thank you.
Speaker 1: You should get an elephant stamp tattoo next to all
Speaker 1: your other tattoos.
Speaker 2: Oh look, maybe I don't know where i'd put it.
Speaker 1: It's getting a bit fure underneath. Put from harps.
Speaker 2: Well, can you draw me one? And then I think
Speaker 2: about getting it tattooed.
Speaker 1: I will draw you. I will draw it on the whiteboard.
Speaker 1: I'll take a photograph of it, and then if you
Speaker 1: get it put on you, I will pay for it.
Speaker 2: Alrighty, let's do it. I'll contact my artist and we'll
Speaker 2: see what happens.
Speaker 1: Challenge accepted, all right, all right, we'll say goodbye affair,
Speaker 1: but Kelly Smith, good work you. I'm going to give
Speaker 1: you I don't I don't want to give you two
Speaker 1: high score because I want you to stay hungry. I'm
Speaker 1: going to give you an eight out of ten so
Speaker 1: you've got room to move.
Speaker 2: Well done, fantastic, thank you,