WEBVTT - Why rising terror threat levels could render the Bondi Royal Commission useless 0:00:00.960 --> 0:00:03.720 Five months on from the attack, Australia as Jewish community 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:08.760 is still grieving, still hurting, still craving answers, and that's 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:11.760 why my government set up the Royal Commission on Anti 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:15.680 Semitism and Social Cohesion, led by the Honor. 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:18.200 The first reportant of the Royal Commission into Anti Semitism 0:00:18.320 --> 0:00:22.400 has landed at a volatile moment. Australia's terrorism level is 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:25.160 already listed as probable, and the war in Iran is 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:28.800 adding new pressure to an already fragile security environment. The 0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:33.520 risks fueling grievances, flaming extremism and increasing the risk facing 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:36.479 Jewish communities in the wake of the Bondai terror attack. 0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:41.080 Today, the Government is pleased to receive Commissioner Bell's interim 0:00:41.200 --> 0:00:45.560 report and I thank the Commissioner for the extraordinary work 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:48.720 that she and her team have done. 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:51.040 And I think but the interim report leads some of 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:54.440 the hardest questions for later, including whether the warnings before 0:00:54.480 --> 0:00:57.360 the attack were properly acted on and where the security 0:00:57.400 --> 0:00:59.840 agencies were on the same page when it came to 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:07.560 identifying the threat. I'm Daniel James and you're listening to 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:12.680 seven AM today. Counter Terrorism expert Greg Barton on what 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:16.479 the report reveals and why the threat facing Australia may 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:22.520 be growing faster than the systems built to stop it. 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:31.040 It's Friday, May one, Greg, thanks for joining us again. 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:36.399 The Interim Report recognizes that our counterterrorism capability needs bolstering, 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:39.240 making fourteen recommendations about how that should be done. 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:43.360 I can confirm that the National Security Committee has met 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:47.880 this morning and we have adopted and will implement all 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:52.760 the recommendations of the INUM Report that are relevant to 0:01:53.080 --> 0:01:54.200 the Comwealth. 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:55.960 Lit All the recommendations in the report have been made 0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:58.400 public at this stage. Out of the ones that we 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:00.880 do know about, which ones resonate with you most at 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:02.200 this point. 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:04.080 I think making the counter Terrorism Coordinate a full time 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:06.880 and sort of linking that back in with crisis management, 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:09.600 so sort of upping the priority for counter terrorism. I 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:13.079 think this is a role Commission interm findings into a 0:02:13.120 --> 0:02:15.760 particular incident, but it also sits in the context of 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:17.760 the time in which we live in twenty twenty six, 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:20.960 and I think we're unfortunately going to expect more terrorism 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:25.280 and more attempts on terrorist incidents rather than less. Variety 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:29.200 of reasons, but both the far right and Giad. Islamist 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:32.240 groups are gaining in strength, and of course conditions in 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:34.760 the Middle East make it easier for them to recruit 0:02:34.800 --> 0:02:37.920 than to find somebody to carry out a mission. So 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:39.920 all of that is grim, so we need to brace 0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:40.639 and prepare for it. 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:45.400 There are five confidential recommendations. What do you think they're 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:46.520 likely to cover off on? 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:50.080 I think some very specific things about points of failure 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:51.880 and how that can be addressed when it comes to 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:57.040 the Bondai terror attack, I imagine I'd certainly hope that at 0:02:57.120 --> 0:02:59.680 least one of those recommendations would cover what is often 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:03.160 referred to us countering or preventing violent extremism, which sits 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:07.079 alongside counter terrorism. Counter Terrorism is the police led, an 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:11.240 intelligence led detection and disruption side of things. So in 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:14.960 the case of for the Bondai shooters, the alleged younger 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:18.959 shooter investigate Bayazia twenty nineteen. By twenty twenty, they said 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:22.000 he was not a priority. Somebody should have been keeping 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:23.440 an eye on him and just checking in with him 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:25.119 and the family on a regular basis, and that would 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:28.519 generally fall best under countering violent extremism as opposed to 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:31.480 counter terrorism. So I'm hoping that there's a discussion of 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:33.640 that there, but it does make sense that that would 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:36.600 be done quietly and not part of the public recommendations. 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:40.600 So what would more effective counter extremism measures look like. 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:43.720 Well, we've got a good example in Victoria. You've got 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:47.120 in the city of Melbourne. You've got four community support groups. 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:50.800 They're called innocuous name, but they work with particular communities. 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:54.720 A particular concern historically has been Muslim communities just because 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:58.160 of targeting of recruiters. So these work across four areas 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:01.360 in the north and West and South of and they 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:03.680 provide a way in which community groups are resourced so 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:05.760 that if somebody has a concern it's generally about a 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:09.120 young person, generally about a young man, not exclusively, they 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:13.560 can voice their concern. That can be expert oversight to 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:15.920 say well, okay, we think this is a counseling problem, 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:17.960 or we just need some mentoring, or maybe that's just 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:21.240 a problem with finding employment, or maybe it's mental health. 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:23.560 But they do an assessment so you don't to share anything. 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:26.040 In rare cases they find out that there's a likely 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:30.560 recruitment from a terrorist or a violent extremist, recruitment, ratialization 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:34.640 going on. Then they check with state and federal police 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:37.960 just to check that there's no ongoing operations deconflict and 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:40.159 if necessarily sit down and try and work out what 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:42.360 the problem is. And if you do that early enough, 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:45.120 you can generally help them recognize that what they thought 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:46.800 was true is not true and take them in a 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:51.200 different direction. Recruitment is all about social networks friendships, So 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:53.960 if you can quit something positive in some young person's 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:56.839 life to replace what seems to be arising negative influence, 0:04:56.839 --> 0:04:58.880 you can cut off at the chase. 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:01.839 You mentioned that the report recommends a full time COUNTI 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:05.280 terrorism coordinator. What does that role do and what difference 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:05.920 could that make? 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:08.400 Well, you know, go back to the nine to eleven 0:05:08.400 --> 0:05:10.920 Commission report and we saw that, you know, one of 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:13.680 the main takeaways there, and it's a familiar story with 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:17.520 similar incidents and reports since is there wasn't adequate communication 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:20.400 between the FBI and the CIA, so you need timely 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:25.640 and complete information sharing. A coordinator, a counter terrorism coordinator 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:30.400 can just facilitate that, partly because that's their dedicated task, 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:32.960 but partly because they build trusted relations and they sort 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:36.200 of lean in make sure stuff happens. The particular recommendation 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:37.919 and the report is that it's full time. So that 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:40.039 suggests that we've sort of had people drifting in and 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:42.200 out of that being their focus. And I think that's 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:45.560 often a problem in government work, including insecurity areas, that 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:48.680 you know, for a period of time we prioritize something 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:50.800 and then it drops in priority, perhaps the funding, you know, 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:53.800 the budget changes, and where you're dealing with stuff that's 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:57.080 based on people to people relationships and relationships of trust, 0:05:57.120 --> 0:05:59.280 you can't afford to have any lack of continuity. 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:02.920 One of the recommendations is a review into counter terrorism 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:06.720 teams and how they integrate and share information. How important 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:08.960 is that and what do you think the review needs 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:09.920 to cover well? 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:13.840 Generally that working between counter terrorism teams and agencies in 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:16.680 Australia does work well, but clearly it's not perfect and 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:19.839 with all of those agencies there are degrees of rivalries. 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:23.159 On a good day, you've got trusted individuals who really 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:25.360 are comfortable working with each other. On a bad day, 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:27.960 you've got people who don't get along and resent as 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:32.160 somebody taking charge. So the best way to overcome that 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:34.880 very human, you know, and predictable problem is to have 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:39.359 full time counter terrorism coordinator and full time people are 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:42.800 signed to support that, so they build trust and they 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:45.360 just have continuity because you don't know when something bad 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:49.720 is going to happen. If you don't have that continuity, 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:51.960 you know, things might go along well for a few 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:54.320 years and then there's a bit of a changeover, and 0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:57.520 then that changeover Unbeknow it's to you. Something's happening and 0:06:57.560 --> 0:06:59.279 you're not as sharp as you should be. As an 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:03.320 organization or series organizations. No one organization can do this 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:07.599 by itself, no one individual. So sharing you timely and 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:11.440 complete fashion is the key. And everything you can do 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:13.600 in terms of systems to put that in place and 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:16.480 give people a chance to build relationships and keep them 0:07:16.560 --> 0:07:17.120 is important. 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:24.120 Coming up, is the Royal Commission moving too slowly in 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:34.080 a time of war. If we pull out a bit, greg, 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:36.200 we're about to go on to two weeks of hearings 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:40.160 about anti Semitism. Is there a chance that Islamic State 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:42.800 could exploit this Royal Commission? Could it actually give it 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:46.160 more material to try and recruit Australians to its cause. 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:48.840 Yeah, I'm not so worried about Islamic State exploiting this 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:51.960 Royal Commission. Process. I'm more worried about the way that 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:54.560 we talk about the findings and the process that we 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:56.960 don't give any advantage to Islamic State or al Qaida, 0:07:57.480 --> 0:08:00.160 or a far right group or any other group. We 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:03.280 need to recognize is that we're dealing with two separate 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:08.520 but interacting problems. One is anti Semitism, so just racist bigotry, hate, 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:11.400 and that can be just at a level of personal animosity. 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:14.920 You know, human beings are very susceptible to this, even 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:18.880 more so when they're in groups, So your group identification 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:22.080 can lead you to sort of taking a racist, anti 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:26.560 Semitic stance. But violent extremist groups like al Qaeda, Islamic State, 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:29.880 the far right neo Nazi groups do this at a 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:32.719 much higher level and well often with a much more 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:38.120 direct focus on violent attacks, and they will use global affairs, 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:40.600 what's happening in the Middle East, what's happening around the world, 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:42.640 to make it easier for them to spin a narrative 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:46.800 which helps them to recruit, but intersects with general anti semitism, 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:49.319 but it's a quite separate thing. We need to be 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:52.280 clear to look at both things at once, unless we 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:55.480 do harm to efforts on one side by focusing on 0:08:55.520 --> 0:09:01.440 the other. So what we know is that theos in Israel, 0:09:01.559 --> 0:09:04.560 the actions of the Netnahu government have led to a 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:07.720 greatly diminished sense of confidence in that government in clearly 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:10.840 across Jewish communities North America. It's very dramatic, but Europe, 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:15.040 and that doesn't automatically generate anti semitism. And if we 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:18.240 refer to every criticism of the Israeli government under Nanna 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:20.439 who as anti Semitic, then we're sort of undermining the 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:23.400 ability to fight anti semitism. But it does give an 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:27.760 opportunity space for both bigots and for terrorists while and 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:30.719 extremists to step in and try and persuade others to 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:33.280 join them. So we need to sort of just have 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:36.800 a very mature public conversation about this, recognizing that it's 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:38.760 nuanced and that we're going to find people with very 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:41.880 different opinions than our own, that they're not necessarily working 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:44.840 against us. The temptation is to say, if you don't 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:47.520 agree with me, you're part of the problem, and then 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:50.320 we can very easily use the label anti semitism, and 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:53.600 that could actually do damage to trying to find anti semitism. 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:57.080 It's even given the current political environment that we'll make 0:09:57.120 --> 0:09:58.480 sure enough to have this conversation. 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:01.080 Greg, Yeah, I believe if we are in Australia. But 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:02.920 it's one of these things where we've got to lean 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:06.560 into a sense of confidence in what we've achieved in 0:10:06.559 --> 0:10:08.880 the multicultural society, one of the most successful in the world, 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:11.800 but not perfect. And I think particularly we've got a 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:14.480 sort of lean into the political discourse and when somebody 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:17.880 strays a bit, say just you know, politely, say that's 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:22.000 not helping. That's adding nothing to the quality of our politics. 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:24.560 It's certainly nothing to the quality of our public life. 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:29.199 There's enough people with goodwill and wisdom for this to work. 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:31.360 But of course there are others who will, for short 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:35.719 term political gains or for just genuine ignorance, end up 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:39.440 making a contribution which undermines those good efforts. But yeah, 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:41.400 I'm confident in Australia that we can do this because 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:43.679 we have done it in the past, and we continue, 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:46.520 you know, for the most part, to succeed. The fact 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:48.920 that we sometimes fail, and sometimes fail very badly, doesn't 0:10:48.920 --> 0:10:50.480 mean we should give up and say it's hopeless. 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:53.760 Commission About says key questions, including whether there was a 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:57.680 failure to identify and act on intelligence before the attack, 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:00.800 and with the police resources for the Huniker event, we're 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:04.360 adequate will be dealt with later in hearings. Is there 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:07.360 a risk that those issues won't be dealt with quickly enough? 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:07.600 Though? 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:09.640 If we're waiting until the end of the year for 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:12.320 the real Commission report to be handed down. 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:15.320 I suspect that many of those details are already contained 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:18.520 in the interim report in the redacted sections. I think 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:20.920 anyone can tell, just from common sense if you're paying 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:24.600 attention that if we look backwards and say worthy security 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:28.400 settings for the Hunaker's celebration sufficient, clearly they weren't. There's 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:30.520 lots of things where it's clear that we failed. This 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:34.160 was a high profile, you know, joyous event that was 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:36.640 going to withdraw the attention of actors who would try 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:39.160 and at the very least protest, if not use violence 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:41.600 against it. So all of those things I think are 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:43.800 pretty obvious to anyone paying attention. So I'm sure that 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:46.880 they're being discussed and it acted on immediately, because we 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:48.640 can't afford, as you're right, you can't afford to wait 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:51.960 to next Tunaker to act on these things. You know, 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:55.800 there are a series of Jewish holidays and important events. 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:58.320 There are other opportunities, and there are just opportunities that 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:01.880 arise through circumstance. Is we can't afford to take months 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:03.600 to get this. We've got to put these things into 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:07.120 place beginning this week, and I'm confident that's the case 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:07.840 behind the scenes. 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:12.280 How much more complicated is the war in Iran making 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:16.640 things in terms of responding to potential security threats here 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:17.240 at home. 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:19.520 I think the best way to describe it is as 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:22.400 adding energy to the system. One thing we do know 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:26.000 is that the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Core in Tehran has 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:29.360 a history of state sponsored terrorism. In the case of 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:34.000 the IIGC, they use elements linked to them to launch attacks, 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:36.320 sometimes false flag but you know they've got a long 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:38.760 history of this. But we also have other groups that 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:40.920 are in no ways under the control of the Islamic 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:45.200 Revolutionary Guard Core regime, but in sometimes our even rivals, 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:48.679 but will choose to act and even within Iran. In Iran, 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:52.760 we've got the sense that these thirty one distinct districts 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:56.200 are operating semi autonomus leakers, They're und the stress and 0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:58.480 that somebody may issue in order at a lower level 0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:01.000 to do something which you know could haveble consequences. So 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:04.200 that's Iran, but groups like Islamic State and al Qaeda 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:06.960 will also try and step into the opportunity space, so 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:11.280 it's impossible to be confident we know all the vector's 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:14.439 angles from which our threat may arise. The incident at 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:16.800 the White House Press cor Gala dinner with the President, 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:18.800 you know, speaks to how something can catch your left 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:21.160 field and how even when you think you've got things secure, 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:24.320 you can realize of a weakness. So I think we 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:25.880 need to be realistic that we live in a world 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:27.959 where the risk has gone up, the energy in the 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:29.760 system has gone up, and therefore we need to put 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:33.160 more resources into being ready to stop any attempt at attacks. 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:37.280 Greg, thanks so much for joining us again, it's been 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:37.679 a pleasure. 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:38.240 Thanks very much. 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:52.720 Also, in the years riots of erupted in Alice Springs 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:56.679 after the arrest of accused Chilcula Jefferson Lewis, police fight 0:13:56.800 --> 0:13:59.000 rubber ballots and tear goes into the angry crowd of 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:02.600 four hundred protests who gathered at Alice Springs hospital where 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:05.160 Lewis was being held, trying to get to him as 0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:08.319 they demanded payback. Lewis was arrested last night for the 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:11.200 alleged murder of a five year old girl, whose family 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:13.480 have asked to be referred to as Come and Joe, 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:17.640 a little baby and Mark Latham has been ordered to 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:20.880 pay following New South Wales MP Alix Greenwage one hundred 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:24.360 thousand dollars in compensation. The former One Nation MP was 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:27.520 found to have villified and sexually harassed Greenwach based on 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:30.960 his sexuality. Latha made a series of tweets in twenty 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:33.960 twenty three too offensive to repeat. He's been ordered to 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:37.000 delete the social media posts in the next twenty four hours. 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:40.600 I'm Daniel James. You've been listening to seven Am. We'll 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:42.720 be back tomorrow.