Speaker 1: Five months on from the attack, Australia as Jewish community
Speaker 1: is still grieving, still hurting, still craving answers, and that's
Speaker 1: why my government set up the Royal Commission on Anti
Speaker 1: Semitism and Social Cohesion, led by the Honor.
Speaker 2: The first reportant of the Royal Commission into Anti Semitism
Speaker 2: has landed at a volatile moment. Australia's terrorism level is
Speaker 2: already listed as probable, and the war in Iran is
Speaker 2: adding new pressure to an already fragile security environment. The
Speaker 2: risks fueling grievances, flaming extremism and increasing the risk facing
Speaker 2: Jewish communities in the wake of the Bondai terror attack.
Speaker 1: Today, the Government is pleased to receive Commissioner Bell's interim
Speaker 1: report and I thank the Commissioner for the extraordinary work
Speaker 1: that she and her team have done.
Speaker 2: And I think but the interim report leads some of
Speaker 2: the hardest questions for later, including whether the warnings before
Speaker 2: the attack were properly acted on and where the security
Speaker 2: agencies were on the same page when it came to
Speaker 2: identifying the threat. I'm Daniel James and you're listening to
Speaker 2: seven AM today. Counter Terrorism expert Greg Barton on what
Speaker 2: the report reveals and why the threat facing Australia may
Speaker 2: be growing faster than the systems built to stop it.
Speaker 2: It's Friday, May one, Greg, thanks for joining us again.
Speaker 2: The Interim Report recognizes that our counterterrorism capability needs bolstering,
Speaker 2: making fourteen recommendations about how that should be done.
Speaker 1: I can confirm that the National Security Committee has met
Speaker 1: this morning and we have adopted and will implement all
Speaker 1: the recommendations of the INUM Report that are relevant to
Speaker 1: the Comwealth.
Speaker 2: Lit All the recommendations in the report have been made
Speaker 2: public at this stage. Out of the ones that we
Speaker 2: do know about, which ones resonate with you most at
Speaker 2: this point.
Speaker 3: I think making the counter Terrorism Coordinate a full time
Speaker 3: and sort of linking that back in with crisis management,
Speaker 3: so sort of upping the priority for counter terrorism. I
Speaker 3: think this is a role Commission interm findings into a
Speaker 3: particular incident, but it also sits in the context of
Speaker 3: the time in which we live in twenty twenty six,
Speaker 3: and I think we're unfortunately going to expect more terrorism
Speaker 3: and more attempts on terrorist incidents rather than less. Variety
Speaker 3: of reasons, but both the far right and Giad. Islamist
Speaker 3: groups are gaining in strength, and of course conditions in
Speaker 3: the Middle East make it easier for them to recruit
Speaker 3: than to find somebody to carry out a mission. So
Speaker 3: all of that is grim, so we need to brace
Speaker 3: and prepare for it.
Speaker 2: There are five confidential recommendations. What do you think they're
Speaker 2: likely to cover off on?
Speaker 3: I think some very specific things about points of failure
Speaker 3: and how that can be addressed when it comes to
Speaker 3: the Bondai terror attack, I imagine I'd certainly hope that at
Speaker 3: least one of those recommendations would cover what is often
Speaker 3: referred to us countering or preventing violent extremism, which sits
Speaker 3: alongside counter terrorism. Counter Terrorism is the police led, an
Speaker 3: intelligence led detection and disruption side of things. So in
Speaker 3: the case of for the Bondai shooters, the alleged younger
Speaker 3: shooter investigate Bayazia twenty nineteen. By twenty twenty, they said
Speaker 3: he was not a priority. Somebody should have been keeping
Speaker 3: an eye on him and just checking in with him
Speaker 3: and the family on a regular basis, and that would
Speaker 3: generally fall best under countering violent extremism as opposed to
Speaker 3: counter terrorism. So I'm hoping that there's a discussion of
Speaker 3: that there, but it does make sense that that would
Speaker 3: be done quietly and not part of the public recommendations.
Speaker 2: So what would more effective counter extremism measures look like.
Speaker 3: Well, we've got a good example in Victoria. You've got
Speaker 3: in the city of Melbourne. You've got four community support groups.
Speaker 3: They're called innocuous name, but they work with particular communities.
Speaker 3: A particular concern historically has been Muslim communities just because
Speaker 3: of targeting of recruiters. So these work across four areas
Speaker 3: in the north and West and South of and they
Speaker 3: provide a way in which community groups are resourced so
Speaker 3: that if somebody has a concern it's generally about a
Speaker 3: young person, generally about a young man, not exclusively, they
Speaker 3: can voice their concern. That can be expert oversight to
Speaker 3: say well, okay, we think this is a counseling problem,
Speaker 3: or we just need some mentoring, or maybe that's just
Speaker 3: a problem with finding employment, or maybe it's mental health.
Speaker 3: But they do an assessment so you don't to share anything.
Speaker 3: In rare cases they find out that there's a likely
Speaker 3: recruitment from a terrorist or a violent extremist, recruitment, ratialization
Speaker 3: going on. Then they check with state and federal police
Speaker 3: just to check that there's no ongoing operations deconflict and
Speaker 3: if necessarily sit down and try and work out what
Speaker 3: the problem is. And if you do that early enough,
Speaker 3: you can generally help them recognize that what they thought
Speaker 3: was true is not true and take them in a
Speaker 3: different direction. Recruitment is all about social networks friendships, So
Speaker 3: if you can quit something positive in some young person's
Speaker 3: life to replace what seems to be arising negative influence,
Speaker 3: you can cut off at the chase.
Speaker 2: You mentioned that the report recommends a full time COUNTI
Speaker 2: terrorism coordinator. What does that role do and what difference
Speaker 2: could that make?
Speaker 3: Well, you know, go back to the nine to eleven
Speaker 3: Commission report and we saw that, you know, one of
Speaker 3: the main takeaways there, and it's a familiar story with
Speaker 3: similar incidents and reports since is there wasn't adequate communication
Speaker 3: between the FBI and the CIA, so you need timely
Speaker 3: and complete information sharing. A coordinator, a counter terrorism coordinator
Speaker 3: can just facilitate that, partly because that's their dedicated task,
Speaker 3: but partly because they build trusted relations and they sort
Speaker 3: of lean in make sure stuff happens. The particular recommendation
Speaker 3: and the report is that it's full time. So that
Speaker 3: suggests that we've sort of had people drifting in and
Speaker 3: out of that being their focus. And I think that's
Speaker 3: often a problem in government work, including insecurity areas, that
Speaker 3: you know, for a period of time we prioritize something
Speaker 3: and then it drops in priority, perhaps the funding, you know,
Speaker 3: the budget changes, and where you're dealing with stuff that's
Speaker 3: based on people to people relationships and relationships of trust,
Speaker 3: you can't afford to have any lack of continuity.
Speaker 2: One of the recommendations is a review into counter terrorism
Speaker 2: teams and how they integrate and share information. How important
Speaker 2: is that and what do you think the review needs
Speaker 2: to cover well?
Speaker 3: Generally that working between counter terrorism teams and agencies in
Speaker 3: Australia does work well, but clearly it's not perfect and
Speaker 3: with all of those agencies there are degrees of rivalries.
Speaker 3: On a good day, you've got trusted individuals who really
Speaker 3: are comfortable working with each other. On a bad day,
Speaker 3: you've got people who don't get along and resent as
Speaker 3: somebody taking charge. So the best way to overcome that
Speaker 3: very human, you know, and predictable problem is to have
Speaker 3: full time counter terrorism coordinator and full time people are
Speaker 3: signed to support that, so they build trust and they
Speaker 3: just have continuity because you don't know when something bad
Speaker 3: is going to happen. If you don't have that continuity,
Speaker 3: you know, things might go along well for a few
Speaker 3: years and then there's a bit of a changeover, and
Speaker 3: then that changeover Unbeknow it's to you. Something's happening and
Speaker 3: you're not as sharp as you should be. As an
Speaker 3: organization or series organizations. No one organization can do this
Speaker 3: by itself, no one individual. So sharing you timely and
Speaker 3: complete fashion is the key. And everything you can do
Speaker 3: in terms of systems to put that in place and
Speaker 3: give people a chance to build relationships and keep them
Speaker 3: is important.
Speaker 2: Coming up, is the Royal Commission moving too slowly in
Speaker 2: a time of war. If we pull out a bit, greg,
Speaker 2: we're about to go on to two weeks of hearings
Speaker 2: about anti Semitism. Is there a chance that Islamic State
Speaker 2: could exploit this Royal Commission? Could it actually give it
Speaker 2: more material to try and recruit Australians to its cause.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not so worried about Islamic State exploiting this
Speaker 3: Royal Commission. Process. I'm more worried about the way that
Speaker 3: we talk about the findings and the process that we
Speaker 3: don't give any advantage to Islamic State or al Qaida,
Speaker 3: or a far right group or any other group. We
Speaker 3: need to recognize is that we're dealing with two separate
Speaker 3: but interacting problems. One is anti Semitism, so just racist bigotry, hate,
Speaker 3: and that can be just at a level of personal animosity.
Speaker 3: You know, human beings are very susceptible to this, even
Speaker 3: more so when they're in groups, So your group identification
Speaker 3: can lead you to sort of taking a racist, anti
Speaker 3: Semitic stance. But violent extremist groups like al Qaeda, Islamic State,
Speaker 3: the far right neo Nazi groups do this at a
Speaker 3: much higher level and well often with a much more
Speaker 3: direct focus on violent attacks, and they will use global affairs,
Speaker 3: what's happening in the Middle East, what's happening around the world,
Speaker 3: to make it easier for them to spin a narrative
Speaker 3: which helps them to recruit, but intersects with general anti semitism,
Speaker 3: but it's a quite separate thing. We need to be
Speaker 3: clear to look at both things at once, unless we
Speaker 3: do harm to efforts on one side by focusing on
Speaker 3: the other. So what we know is that theos in Israel,
Speaker 3: the actions of the Netnahu government have led to a
Speaker 3: greatly diminished sense of confidence in that government in clearly
Speaker 3: across Jewish communities North America. It's very dramatic, but Europe,
Speaker 3: and that doesn't automatically generate anti semitism. And if we
Speaker 3: refer to every criticism of the Israeli government under Nanna
Speaker 3: who as anti Semitic, then we're sort of undermining the
Speaker 3: ability to fight anti semitism. But it does give an
Speaker 3: opportunity space for both bigots and for terrorists while and
Speaker 3: extremists to step in and try and persuade others to
Speaker 3: join them. So we need to sort of just have
Speaker 3: a very mature public conversation about this, recognizing that it's
Speaker 3: nuanced and that we're going to find people with very
Speaker 3: different opinions than our own, that they're not necessarily working
Speaker 3: against us. The temptation is to say, if you don't
Speaker 3: agree with me, you're part of the problem, and then
Speaker 3: we can very easily use the label anti semitism, and
Speaker 3: that could actually do damage to trying to find anti semitism.
Speaker 2: It's even given the current political environment that we'll make
Speaker 2: sure enough to have this conversation.
Speaker 3: Greg, Yeah, I believe if we are in Australia. But
Speaker 3: it's one of these things where we've got to lean
Speaker 3: into a sense of confidence in what we've achieved in
Speaker 3: the multicultural society, one of the most successful in the world,
Speaker 3: but not perfect. And I think particularly we've got a
Speaker 3: sort of lean into the political discourse and when somebody
Speaker 3: strays a bit, say just you know, politely, say that's
Speaker 3: not helping. That's adding nothing to the quality of our politics.
Speaker 3: It's certainly nothing to the quality of our public life.
Speaker 3: There's enough people with goodwill and wisdom for this to work.
Speaker 3: But of course there are others who will, for short
Speaker 3: term political gains or for just genuine ignorance, end up
Speaker 3: making a contribution which undermines those good efforts. But yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm confident in Australia that we can do this because
Speaker 3: we have done it in the past, and we continue,
Speaker 3: you know, for the most part, to succeed. The fact
Speaker 3: that we sometimes fail, and sometimes fail very badly, doesn't
Speaker 3: mean we should give up and say it's hopeless.
Speaker 2: Commission About says key questions, including whether there was a
Speaker 2: failure to identify and act on intelligence before the attack,
Speaker 2: and with the police resources for the Huniker event, we're
Speaker 2: adequate will be dealt with later in hearings. Is there
Speaker 2: a risk that those issues won't be dealt with quickly enough?
Speaker 3: Though?
Speaker 2: If we're waiting until the end of the year for
Speaker 2: the real Commission report to be handed down.
Speaker 3: I suspect that many of those details are already contained
Speaker 3: in the interim report in the redacted sections. I think
Speaker 3: anyone can tell, just from common sense if you're paying
Speaker 3: attention that if we look backwards and say worthy security
Speaker 3: settings for the Hunaker's celebration sufficient, clearly they weren't. There's
Speaker 3: lots of things where it's clear that we failed. This
Speaker 3: was a high profile, you know, joyous event that was
Speaker 3: going to withdraw the attention of actors who would try
Speaker 3: and at the very least protest, if not use violence
Speaker 3: against it. So all of those things I think are
Speaker 3: pretty obvious to anyone paying attention. So I'm sure that
Speaker 3: they're being discussed and it acted on immediately, because we
Speaker 3: can't afford, as you're right, you can't afford to wait
Speaker 3: to next Tunaker to act on these things. You know,
Speaker 3: there are a series of Jewish holidays and important events.
Speaker 3: There are other opportunities, and there are just opportunities that
Speaker 3: arise through circumstance. Is we can't afford to take months
Speaker 3: to get this. We've got to put these things into
Speaker 3: place beginning this week, and I'm confident that's the case
Speaker 3: behind the scenes.
Speaker 2: How much more complicated is the war in Iran making
Speaker 2: things in terms of responding to potential security threats here
Speaker 2: at home.
Speaker 3: I think the best way to describe it is as
Speaker 3: adding energy to the system. One thing we do know
Speaker 3: is that the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Core in Tehran has
Speaker 3: a history of state sponsored terrorism. In the case of
Speaker 3: the IIGC, they use elements linked to them to launch attacks,
Speaker 3: sometimes false flag but you know they've got a long
Speaker 3: history of this. But we also have other groups that
Speaker 3: are in no ways under the control of the Islamic
Speaker 3: Revolutionary Guard Core regime, but in sometimes our even rivals,
Speaker 3: but will choose to act and even within Iran. In Iran,
Speaker 3: we've got the sense that these thirty one distinct districts
Speaker 3: are operating semi autonomus leakers, They're und the stress and
Speaker 3: that somebody may issue in order at a lower level
Speaker 3: to do something which you know could haveble consequences. So
Speaker 3: that's Iran, but groups like Islamic State and al Qaeda
Speaker 3: will also try and step into the opportunity space, so
Speaker 3: it's impossible to be confident we know all the vector's
Speaker 3: angles from which our threat may arise. The incident at
Speaker 3: the White House Press cor Gala dinner with the President,
Speaker 3: you know, speaks to how something can catch your left
Speaker 3: field and how even when you think you've got things secure,
Speaker 3: you can realize of a weakness. So I think we
Speaker 3: need to be realistic that we live in a world
Speaker 3: where the risk has gone up, the energy in the
Speaker 3: system has gone up, and therefore we need to put
Speaker 3: more resources into being ready to stop any attempt at attacks.
Speaker 2: Greg, thanks so much for joining us again, it's been
Speaker 2: a pleasure.
Speaker 3: Thanks very much.
Speaker 2: Also, in the years riots of erupted in Alice Springs
Speaker 2: after the arrest of accused Chilcula Jefferson Lewis, police fight
Speaker 2: rubber ballots and tear goes into the angry crowd of
Speaker 2: four hundred protests who gathered at Alice Springs hospital where
Speaker 2: Lewis was being held, trying to get to him as
Speaker 2: they demanded payback. Lewis was arrested last night for the
Speaker 2: alleged murder of a five year old girl, whose family
Speaker 2: have asked to be referred to as Come and Joe,
Speaker 2: a little baby and Mark Latham has been ordered to
Speaker 2: pay following New South Wales MP Alix Greenwage one hundred
Speaker 2: thousand dollars in compensation. The former One Nation MP was
Speaker 2: found to have villified and sexually harassed Greenwach based on
Speaker 2: his sexuality. Latha made a series of tweets in twenty
Speaker 2: twenty three too offensive to repeat. He's been ordered to
Speaker 2: delete the social media posts in the next twenty four hours.
Speaker 2: I'm Daniel James. You've been listening to seven Am. We'll
Speaker 2: be back tomorrow.