1 00:00:03,990 --> 00:00:09,300 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. One of the big environmental challenges we 2 00:00:09,300 --> 00:00:12,599 Sean Aylmer: face is our addiction to plastics. We're getting better at 3 00:00:12,599 --> 00:00:15,990 Sean Aylmer: recycling and at using less plastic in the first place, 4 00:00:15,990 --> 00:00:19,259 Sean Aylmer: but now an Australian company has come up with a 5 00:00:19,260 --> 00:00:24,239 Sean Aylmer: plastic substitute. ULUU is backed by the CSIRO, partners with 6 00:00:24,390 --> 00:00:27,780 Sean Aylmer: Deacon University, and last year raised $ 8 million in funding 7 00:00:27,780 --> 00:00:30,780 Sean Aylmer: with some big celebrity backers. And the best part, this 8 00:00:30,780 --> 00:00:35,249 Sean Aylmer: plastic alternative is made from seaweed, making it carbon negative. 9 00:00:35,549 --> 00:00:42,000 Sean Aylmer: Michael Kingsbury is the Co-Founder and Co-CEO of ULUU, U-L-U-U, ULUU. Michael, 10 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:42,990 Sean Aylmer: welcome to Fear and Greed. 11 00:00:43,350 --> 00:00:44,970 Michael Kingsbury: Ah, no, thanks for having me, Sean. 12 00:00:45,780 --> 00:00:48,749 Sean Aylmer: So tell me, where did the idea come from? 13 00:00:49,469 --> 00:00:53,969 Michael Kingsbury: Yeah, so the idea really, so Julia, who is my co-founder, 14 00:00:54,150 --> 00:00:57,960 Michael Kingsbury: it was really her idea back in 2019. So she's 15 00:00:58,350 --> 00:01:02,130 Michael Kingsbury: an oceanographer and marine scientist, has a lot of experience 16 00:01:02,130 --> 00:01:06,149 Michael Kingsbury: with understanding the impacts and causes of plastic pollution, and 17 00:01:06,809 --> 00:01:10,260 Michael Kingsbury: she was really looking for an alternative to plastics. So 18 00:01:10,619 --> 00:01:15,420 Michael Kingsbury: there's really no compelling alternative to fossil fuel-based plastics today. 19 00:01:15,870 --> 00:01:18,450 Michael Kingsbury: You have issues with the feed stocks that are used. 20 00:01:18,630 --> 00:01:21,120 Michael Kingsbury: You need a carbon source to produce materials, many of 21 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:24,720 Michael Kingsbury: those that today exist are from land crops, things like cornstarch, 22 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:29,250 Michael Kingsbury: and the materials have issues around their properties. So yeah, 23 00:01:29,250 --> 00:01:33,360 Michael Kingsbury: it was really joining these two things, using seaweed as, what 24 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:37,620 Michael Kingsbury: we believe to be the most sustainable, scalable feedstock to allow 25 00:01:37,620 --> 00:01:40,109 Michael Kingsbury: us to replace the 400 million tons of fossil fuel-based 26 00:01:40,349 --> 00:01:44,639 Michael Kingsbury: plastics today, in combination with a special group of polymers 27 00:01:44,940 --> 00:01:50,220 Michael Kingsbury: called PHAs (polyhydroxy acids), which are produced by microorganisms like brewing beer. 28 00:01:50,220 --> 00:01:53,610 Michael Kingsbury: It's through fermentation, but we're brewing an alternative to plastic. 29 00:01:54,180 --> 00:01:56,969 Michael Kingsbury: They are home compostable and will also biodegrade if they 30 00:01:56,970 --> 00:01:59,340 Michael Kingsbury: happen to get into the ocean, but they have this 31 00:01:59,340 --> 00:02:02,639 Michael Kingsbury: very special, unique superpower in that they actually behave like 32 00:02:02,639 --> 00:02:06,899 Michael Kingsbury: plastics today. So they repel water, have good oxygen, moisture 33 00:02:06,900 --> 00:02:10,680 Michael Kingsbury: barrier properties, they're lightweight, durable, et cetera. So they have 34 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,108 Michael Kingsbury: all the things you like about plastic, but they're uniquely 35 00:02:13,110 --> 00:02:14,400 Michael Kingsbury: compostable at the end of their life. 36 00:02:15,210 --> 00:02:19,258 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Can I ask, this is science to me, and 37 00:02:19,258 --> 00:02:22,679 Sean Aylmer: it is totally science to everyone, I suppose, who discovered 38 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,469 Sean Aylmer: it? How do you come up with that idea, Julia 39 00:02:25,469 --> 00:02:25,859 Sean Aylmer: or you? 40 00:02:26,729 --> 00:02:30,240 Michael Kingsbury: The concept, yeah, it's really Julia's. I think it's a 41 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:33,960 Michael Kingsbury: mixture of her background in marine science and work in 42 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:37,859 Michael Kingsbury: seaweeds in the past, in combination with really looking at 43 00:02:37,860 --> 00:02:40,469 Michael Kingsbury: all the different options out there. So we're really mission- 44 00:02:40,469 --> 00:02:43,230 Michael Kingsbury: driven start to replace plastic, and there are very few 45 00:02:43,230 --> 00:02:46,800 Michael Kingsbury: alternatives out there. So looking at the literature, scientific literature, 46 00:02:47,010 --> 00:02:49,590 Michael Kingsbury: what's on the market, and I guess intuitively joining the 47 00:02:49,590 --> 00:02:53,010 Michael Kingsbury: dots between what is a feedstock that doesn't compete with arable land 48 00:02:53,010 --> 00:02:56,700 Michael Kingsbury: for food production. Seaweed is a marine crop that you 49 00:02:56,700 --> 00:02:59,609 Michael Kingsbury: can grow at scale, and actually, if it's growing in 50 00:02:59,609 --> 00:03:03,419 Michael Kingsbury: the right way, can have benefits for the environment in that it 51 00:03:03,419 --> 00:03:05,760 Michael Kingsbury: bioremediates nutrient pollution, it sucks down lots of carbon. 52 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:10,559 Sean Aylmer: Yeah, that just explain that, I didn't realise that seaweed farms 53 00:03:10,559 --> 00:03:13,980 Sean Aylmer: actually offset more carbon than they emit. Is that what 54 00:03:13,980 --> 00:03:14,460 Sean Aylmer: you're saying? 55 00:03:14,969 --> 00:03:19,380 Michael Kingsbury: Yeah. Seaweeds are an amazing plant. It grows very quickly. 56 00:03:19,530 --> 00:03:22,260 Michael Kingsbury: It absorbs a lot of carbon from the environment. And 57 00:03:22,260 --> 00:03:25,740 Michael Kingsbury: as it grows, parts of that biomass actually get shed 58 00:03:26,190 --> 00:03:29,069 Michael Kingsbury: into the water and can be sequestered in ocean sediments. 59 00:03:29,070 --> 00:03:31,200 Michael Kingsbury: So where it becomes ultimately the fossil fuel for the 60 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:35,159 Michael Kingsbury: future. So yeah, it's a great source of blue carbon, 61 00:03:35,219 --> 00:03:36,480 Michael Kingsbury: which you may have heard of. 62 00:03:36,900 --> 00:03:41,640 Sean Aylmer: Okay, so that's the science behind it. What are the 63 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:45,959 Sean Aylmer: potential uses? Is it something that we could end up 64 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:48,179 Sean Aylmer: putting our groceries in the future, or is it more 65 00:03:48,179 --> 00:03:51,480 Sean Aylmer: of a heavy industry option? What are its uses? 66 00:03:52,289 --> 00:03:56,040 Michael Kingsbury: Yeah, so the types of materials that we're producing, technically they're 67 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:01,800 Michael Kingsbury: called PHAs, again, produced from fermentation. They're very versatile. So 68 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,610 Michael Kingsbury: our product is a pellet, and pellets are the things 69 00:04:05,610 --> 00:04:08,909 Michael Kingsbury: that are kind of the commodity that brands that manufacture today, 70 00:04:09,270 --> 00:04:13,440 Michael Kingsbury: purchase and melt down and injection mold into rigid applications 71 00:04:13,470 --> 00:04:17,969 Michael Kingsbury: like car interiors or water bottles or furniture. They can 72 00:04:17,970 --> 00:04:22,350 Michael Kingsbury: extrude them into fibers to replace things like polyester. Your 73 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:26,459 Michael Kingsbury: lots of textiles are synthetic, made of plastics. So in 74 00:04:26,460 --> 00:04:29,219 Michael Kingsbury: that same way we produce pellets that are plug and 75 00:04:29,219 --> 00:04:33,330 Michael Kingsbury: play with existing manufacturing equipment and have that versatility to 76 00:04:33,330 --> 00:04:37,080 Michael Kingsbury: be applied for injection molding applications through to fibers. So 77 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,799 Michael Kingsbury: quite a versatile thing. And yeah, today there's 400 million 78 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,979 Michael Kingsbury: tons of pellets produced every year, all derived from fossil fuels. 79 00:04:44,700 --> 00:04:46,289 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Is it economic yet? 80 00:04:47,070 --> 00:04:51,480 Michael Kingsbury: Yeah, so we think seaweed in combinations with some innovations 81 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:55,710 Michael Kingsbury: in our production process provide us with a process that 82 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:59,460 Michael Kingsbury: can be cheaper than others and has the potential to 83 00:04:59,550 --> 00:05:03,570 Michael Kingsbury: ultimately compete with conventional plastics on price. We're still more 84 00:05:03,570 --> 00:05:07,589 Michael Kingsbury: expensive than obviously PET (Polyethylene terephthalate) and polypropylene today, which are around 85 00:05:08,459 --> 00:05:11,100 Michael Kingsbury: one to $3 per kilogram, but we think we have a very clear 86 00:05:11,100 --> 00:05:15,659 Michael Kingsbury: path to getting to cost parity. I would say brands 87 00:05:16,020 --> 00:05:21,029 Michael Kingsbury: and certain markets that we're targeting, so initially cosmetics, so 88 00:05:21,089 --> 00:05:25,890 Michael Kingsbury: containers for things like your hand creams, skincare, they're willing 89 00:05:25,890 --> 00:05:30,029 Michael Kingsbury: to pay a premium for our pellets, which does make 90 00:05:30,029 --> 00:05:33,750 Michael Kingsbury: us economic today, even despite being more expensive than commodity-based plastics. 91 00:05:34,170 --> 00:05:36,060 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Michael. We'll be back in a minute. 92 00:05:42,150 --> 00:05:47,820 Sean Aylmer: I'm speaking to Michael Kingsbury, Co-Founder and Co-CEO of ULUU. Okay. 93 00:05:47,820 --> 00:05:50,880 Sean Aylmer: Now you've been supported by Main Sequence, which is the CSIRO's 94 00:05:50,940 --> 00:05:53,520 Sean Aylmer: Innovation Fund. How important has that been? 95 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:58,889 Michael Kingsbury: Yeah, incredibly important. Main Sequence, and we have a partner 96 00:05:58,889 --> 00:06:01,980 Michael Kingsbury: there, Phil Morle, who's now a director of ULUU, have 97 00:06:01,980 --> 00:06:07,229 Michael Kingsbury: been absolutely fantastic and really pushing us to grow our 98 00:06:07,230 --> 00:06:11,248 Michael Kingsbury: ambition and ultimately believe in the mission that we can 99 00:06:11,250 --> 00:06:15,990 Michael Kingsbury: replace fossil fuel- based plastic. So Phil's been very critical to 100 00:06:15,990 --> 00:06:16,859 Michael Kingsbury: where we are so far. 101 00:06:17,369 --> 00:06:20,009 Sean Aylmer: He's a believer. And you've had celebrity backers too, musicians, 102 00:06:20,009 --> 00:06:23,339 Sean Aylmer: chefs, models, all getting on board. I imagine, I mean it 103 00:06:23,339 --> 00:06:25,950 Sean Aylmer: helps financially, obviously, but it also probably opens some doors 104 00:06:25,950 --> 00:06:27,628 Sean Aylmer: too, the power of celebrity? 105 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:32,339 Michael Kingsbury: Yeah, I think, we have a very compelling story. We 106 00:06:32,339 --> 00:06:35,639 Michael Kingsbury: want ULUU, ultimately, to be a global brand as well, one 107 00:06:35,639 --> 00:06:38,339 Michael Kingsbury: that businesses are proud to show that their products are 108 00:06:38,339 --> 00:06:41,880 Michael Kingsbury: made with ULUU and that consumers are demanding that the 109 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,609 Michael Kingsbury: products that they purchase are made from ULUU. So we see this 110 00:06:44,610 --> 00:06:48,839 Michael Kingsbury: consumer angle in the role of cultural leaders that they can 111 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,500 Michael Kingsbury: play in building our brand awareness and building excitement in 112 00:06:52,500 --> 00:06:55,350 Michael Kingsbury: the market and really waiting for, I guess, keeping our 113 00:06:55,350 --> 00:06:58,830 Michael Kingsbury: powder dry with some of these influential investors and be 114 00:06:58,830 --> 00:07:01,469 Michael Kingsbury: looking to, I guess, activate the use of ULUU in certain 115 00:07:01,470 --> 00:07:03,719 Michael Kingsbury: events and things like that in the future. So yeah, 116 00:07:03,719 --> 00:07:04,738 Michael Kingsbury: kind of watch the space for that. 117 00:07:05,610 --> 00:07:08,428 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So what are the next steps, Michael Kingsbury from 118 00:07:08,428 --> 00:07:09,780 Sean Aylmer: ULUU? What are the next steps? 119 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,590 Michael Kingsbury: Right now we are commissioning or have commissioned a pilot 120 00:07:13,590 --> 00:07:16,560 Michael Kingsbury: plant here in Watermans Bay, where our focus is really 121 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,760 Michael Kingsbury: on product development. So taking our materials and ensuring that they're 122 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:25,710 Michael Kingsbury: fit for use with customers and going through trials with 123 00:07:25,710 --> 00:07:28,829 Michael Kingsbury: customers. So we need kilograms of our material to do 124 00:07:28,830 --> 00:07:33,330 Michael Kingsbury: those. And then working with them to lock in offtake agreements, which would, 125 00:07:33,780 --> 00:07:37,110 Michael Kingsbury: we can use that future revenue to secure financing or 126 00:07:37,110 --> 00:07:40,080 Michael Kingsbury: underwrite debt for a plant towards the end of next 127 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:43,290 Michael Kingsbury: year. That can scale up to around a hundred tons, 128 00:07:43,290 --> 00:07:45,659 Michael Kingsbury: so it's a demo plant in Indonesia next year, which 129 00:07:45,660 --> 00:07:48,479 Michael Kingsbury: is where we currently purchase our seaweed from. So that's 130 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:51,660 Michael Kingsbury: really what our focus is on right now, producing as 131 00:07:51,660 --> 00:07:53,880 Michael Kingsbury: much of this material as we can to lock in 132 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:55,110 Michael Kingsbury: offtake agreements with customers. 133 00:07:56,670 --> 00:07:58,559 Sean Aylmer: What's the long- term goal? I mean, you've sort of 134 00:07:58,559 --> 00:08:01,079 Sean Aylmer: told us throughout this interview, in a sense you've answered 135 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:05,699 Sean Aylmer: this question already, but give me two answers, give me 136 00:08:05,879 --> 00:08:09,270 Sean Aylmer: utopia, but also give me where you think you'll be 137 00:08:09,270 --> 00:08:10,500 Sean Aylmer: in five years time? 138 00:08:11,190 --> 00:08:15,570 Michael Kingsbury: Yeah, sure. So ultimately, we believe that we can replace 139 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:20,429 Michael Kingsbury: fossil fuel- based plastics today with all the natural polymers derived 140 00:08:20,429 --> 00:08:25,440 Michael Kingsbury: from seaweed. The utopia situation is where currently you have 141 00:08:25,890 --> 00:08:30,510 Michael Kingsbury: recycling, we think recycling as well as composting, more importantly, 142 00:08:30,810 --> 00:08:33,750 Michael Kingsbury: is a great end- of- life solution to materials where we 143 00:08:33,750 --> 00:08:36,150 Michael Kingsbury: can return them to nature. And we think that you 144 00:08:36,150 --> 00:08:37,980 Michael Kingsbury: could treat your materials in the same way that you 145 00:08:37,980 --> 00:08:40,170 Michael Kingsbury: treat in food waste, where you can put them in 146 00:08:40,379 --> 00:08:44,700 Michael Kingsbury: your home compost or community compost and get rid of 147 00:08:44,700 --> 00:08:48,120 Michael Kingsbury: your material waste and food waste together, which would solve 148 00:08:48,179 --> 00:08:51,510 Michael Kingsbury: all sorts of issues. So that's really, I guess, the 149 00:08:51,510 --> 00:08:54,150 Michael Kingsbury: utopia is to replace plastic with ULUU. And then in 150 00:08:54,150 --> 00:08:56,729 Michael Kingsbury: the next five years, we hope to move from a 151 00:08:56,730 --> 00:09:00,960 Michael Kingsbury: demonstration plant, which would be online next year, really taking 152 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,080 Michael Kingsbury: what we've done currently at pilot, which is hacking together 153 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,559 Michael Kingsbury: lots of equipment off- the- shelf, and then actually taking 154 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:11,069 Michael Kingsbury: that to a fully automated integrated plant next year. And 155 00:09:11,070 --> 00:09:15,330 Michael Kingsbury: then towards a large commercial facility in 2026, producing around 156 00:09:15,330 --> 00:09:18,840 Michael Kingsbury: 10,000 tons of our materials every year, which is really 157 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,300 Michael Kingsbury: when we then start to generate impacts at scale, and 158 00:09:21,300 --> 00:09:23,520 Michael Kingsbury: you'll see ULUU kind of in the mainstream. 159 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,840 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Just quickly, you mentioned Indonesia before, I mean, Joko 160 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:32,160 Sean Aylmer: Widodo has certainly been talking about putting money towards green 161 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:34,859 Sean Aylmer: manufacturing and green products. Is this all part of that 162 00:09:34,859 --> 00:09:38,250 Sean Aylmer: or no? It's a little bit of an aside question here, Michael. 163 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:42,090 Michael Kingsbury: Yeah, no, that's a great question. So yeah, Indonesia's the 164 00:09:42,090 --> 00:09:45,120 Michael Kingsbury: world's second- largest producer of seaweed. It's a market that 165 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,389 Michael Kingsbury: we can tap into readily. We have strong partners on 166 00:09:48,389 --> 00:09:51,809 Michael Kingsbury: the ground there. And there the government and Joko Widodo 167 00:09:51,809 --> 00:09:55,650 Michael Kingsbury: is very excited about growing the seaweed industry, not just 168 00:09:55,650 --> 00:09:58,230 Michael Kingsbury: in terms of production of raw materials, but also value- 169 00:09:58,230 --> 00:10:02,850 Michael Kingsbury: added processing. So actually setting up PHA plants in Indonesia 170 00:10:02,910 --> 00:10:07,049 Michael Kingsbury: where we take that seaweed and convert it into materials 171 00:10:07,049 --> 00:10:11,250 Michael Kingsbury: is very attractive for the Indonesian government and building jobs 172 00:10:11,250 --> 00:10:16,679 Michael Kingsbury: within coastal communities. And yeah, really, I guess ensuring that 173 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:19,620 Michael Kingsbury: that value stays in Indonesia is quite exciting. 174 00:10:20,309 --> 00:10:24,718 Sean Aylmer: Final question. Where's the name, ULUU, U- L- U- U, 175 00:10:24,750 --> 00:10:26,910 Sean Aylmer: UL double U, come from? 176 00:10:28,170 --> 00:10:30,389 Michael Kingsbury: Yeah, I don't know, one morning we just thought of 177 00:10:30,389 --> 00:10:35,880 Michael Kingsbury: it. And I think subconsciously it was influenced by, there's 178 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:40,050 Michael Kingsbury: a surfing spot that I like in Indonesia called Uluwatu in Bali 179 00:10:40,050 --> 00:10:43,230 Michael Kingsbury: there. And it just had this nice natural sounding feel 180 00:10:43,230 --> 00:10:47,699 Michael Kingsbury: to it. It was succinct, like four letters. There's nothing 181 00:10:47,699 --> 00:10:49,769 Michael Kingsbury: else like that in the world. So when you type in ULUU 182 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:54,510 Michael Kingsbury: into Google, you essentially stumble across us. And yeah, it 183 00:10:54,510 --> 00:10:58,949 Michael Kingsbury: wasn't trademarked, there was no domain name taken, so it made sense. It 184 00:10:58,950 --> 00:10:59,370 Michael Kingsbury: feels good. 185 00:11:00,330 --> 00:11:02,669 Sean Aylmer: Fantastic. Michael, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 186 00:11:03,179 --> 00:11:04,049 Michael Kingsbury: Thanks a lot for having me. 187 00:11:04,650 --> 00:11:08,130 Sean Aylmer: That was Michael Kingsbury, co- founder and co- CEO of 188 00:11:08,190 --> 00:11:10,949 Sean Aylmer: ULUU. This is the Fear and Greed daily interview. Join 189 00:11:10,950 --> 00:11:12,840 Sean Aylmer: us every morning for the full episode of Fear and 190 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,769 Sean Aylmer: Greed, Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy 191 00:11:16,770 --> 00:11:17,159 Sean Aylmer: your day.