1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: It is the mitochondria that sets up the innate response 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: for your immune system. And that is why the people 3 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:10,720 Speaker 1: who struggled with COVID were the diabetics and the metabolic syndromes, 4 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: and the obyse and the hypertensives, and they already have 5 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 1: mitochondria that I like limpin alone. 6 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 2: Doctor Crista Bell, Yo, welcome to the podcast. Now you're 7 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 2: on this podcast because I was speaking at the ACNUM conference, 8 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 2: the Australian College of Nutritional Environmental Medicine, and you were 9 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 2: speaking a little bit before me, and I was absolutely captivated. 10 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 2: You talked about my two favorite subjects in one you 11 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 2: talked about hormesis and you talked about the mitochondria. And 12 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 2: I think I was a bit through my talk and 13 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 2: I said were chrys de Bell and like, where have 14 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 2: you been all my life? Yeah? 15 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 3: That was that was funny. I was very toughed. Thank you. 16 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 2: I was like, oh, that because it was such a 17 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 2: good that's probably the best talk that I In fact 18 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:18,400 Speaker 2: that it's the best talk I've seen in years at 19 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 2: any conference. And I thought you must be some geeky 20 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 2: researcher who spent their whole career diving into the mitochondria 21 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 2: and home. It's just but you're not. You're actually a GP. 22 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 2: So tell our listeners about just you, your journey and 23 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 2: why you got interested in this and why you became 24 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 2: an integrative GP as well, and maybe define that because 25 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 2: some people may not be a word of the difference. 26 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: Okay, well I'll also define actually some people maybe don't 27 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: know that the difference between being a physician and a GP. 28 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 3: I'm actually a physician. 29 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: I was trained in the UK, and I was on 30 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: my way to being a gastro and trologist, and I 31 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: was all into nutrition and things like that, and then 32 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: I realized in my guestro clinics that I couldn't do 33 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: very much in ten minutes in the NHS, in the 34 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:18,239 Speaker 1: wonderful White Chapel Hospital in East London, and I decided, well, 35 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: I don't think I can work in this kind of 36 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: environment where ten minutes to talk to patients and to 37 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: treat very chronic symptoms. And as much as I loved 38 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: hospital medicine and acute medicine, I decided I would just 39 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: specialize in nutrition and go into private practice. 40 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:36,399 Speaker 3: As a physician. 41 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 1: And so that's what I did eighteen years ago. I mean, 42 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 1: a doctor for more twenty five years. 43 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 2: Oh wow, yeah, like you like the female version of 44 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 2: Peter Pant. 45 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 1: Well, perhaps it's the Asian genes and you know, well, 46 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: to be honest, everything I've taught my patients I do myself. 47 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: And I really started off in an environmental medicine and 48 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:02,239 Speaker 1: nutrition and environmental medicine. 49 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 3: I know about all what's toxic. I know all about 50 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 3: what not to do. 51 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 1: Don't invite me to your parties because I'm a real 52 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:09,239 Speaker 1: party pooper. 53 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 3: I'm like, don't eat that, don't drink that. 54 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: But anyway, so that was my journey into being in Australia, 55 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: they call them integrative doctors. Yeah, but yeah, my background 56 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 1: is an environmental and nutritional medicine. 57 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 2: And when you do your basic doctor training, did you 58 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 2: do it in the UK? How much nutritional education did 59 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 2: you get in the basic training? 60 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 3: I don't remember any. 61 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I think some places it's two weeks. Some 62 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 2: medical schools it's not. 63 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 3: No, it's not never two weeks. 64 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: It's usually one lecture or half a day here, half 65 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: a day there. I don't actually remember any, but maybe 66 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: because I didn't tell them, But I actually then I 67 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: did a master's degree in human nutrition at King's College 68 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: in London. But when I decided, I was a gastron 69 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: Trilogy registrar and I decided, I can't really practice like this. 70 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: I'm going to go back to school and study nutrition. 71 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: So I went and got a postcrad Masters in nutrition, 72 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: and then I went back into medicine. 73 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 2: So that's how I interesting. That's so, so you had 74 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 2: done had you finished your residency and things like that, Yeah, okay, 75 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 2: and then you went back into the masters. Wow, that's 76 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,679 Speaker 2: that's pretty full on and taking a year right after 77 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 2: doing all that training and just getting to the point 78 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 2: where hey, I can I earn some money, and then 79 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 2: you went back to university and did the masters. 80 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 3: Yeah. 81 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: And so because of doing that and then being in 82 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: private practice and really thinking outside of just regular acute medicine, 83 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 1: which I love, but really every day doctors everyday work 84 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 1: is very much chronic disease. 85 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 3: You really have to think about, well, what are all 86 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 3: the drivers. 87 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: The contributors, the lifestyle factors, the toxic cities of the environment. 88 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: So I was doing that really, and the sorts of 89 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 1: patients that I was seeing, chronic fatigue syndromes and all 90 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: sorts of syndromes that medicine, couldn't label, couldn't understand, and 91 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: indeed were more complex. So they would come to doctors 92 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: like us because they've seen the neurologists, they've seen the romatologist, 93 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: they've seen the gasterentrologists. Maybe they have a label, maybe 94 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: they don't a lot of the times, first that would 95 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: get the people who didn't have the labels but know 96 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: that there's something wrong and it's not just in their head, 97 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: and then they would come to environmental medicine doctors like myself. 98 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 1: So from doing that, I've had experience of very complex, 99 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:46,720 Speaker 1: very strange, very complicated conditions. 100 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 3: But really, when you just go back to. 101 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: Physiology, biochemistry, understanding the body globally as a huge you know, 102 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: systems biology thing that you have to know a bit 103 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: of everything, so is like being a GP and not 104 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: being a specialist. 105 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 3: And then we go right down to the cellular levels. 106 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 2: And it gets ridiculously complex when you get down to 107 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 2: the cellular level, doesn't it, And the whole physiology and 108 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 2: how nutrition interacts with our cells and all of the 109 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 2: cell processes. I want to zero in on metabolic health 110 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 2: in general, but then do a dive into the mitochondria 111 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 2: because that's really the thing that captivated me about your talk. So, 112 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:37,679 Speaker 2: metabolic syndrome is a collection of things, and there's different 113 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 2: as you and iBooks know, there are different criteria depending 114 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 2: on who you listen to, but typically three from five 115 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 2: of central obesity, high blood pressure, high triglycerides, lowing it's DL, 116 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 2: and high fasting glucose. Why that cluster, why is that 117 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 2: cluster so important? And the interaction between those things. 118 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 1: Why it's important, I think just plays out in that 119 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: that's where the rubber hits the road in terms of 120 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: the interactions of where we see chronic disease happen, which 121 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: is cardiovascular health, heart attacks, strokes, dementia, and then you 122 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: know the various range of. 123 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 3: Blood clotting type of issues. 124 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: Because that's rubber hits the roads like the endothelial system, 125 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: and that endothelial system, the mitochondria play a huge role 126 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:36,679 Speaker 1: in looking after that. Maybe we can come to that later, 127 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: but then okay, well, the mitochondric also play a huge 128 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: role in you know, keeping a blood sugar level and 129 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: things like that. But I think from a medical definition 130 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: of the high fasting insulin, the high blood sugar, the 131 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 1: high trigly strides, that's because together, that's just the. 132 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 3: Train wreck in the enothelial vasculature. 133 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 2: And it's basically your kind of you know, from a 134 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 2: layman's perspective, metabolically, you're starting to fall apart when you 135 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 2: have that cluster. I remember when I was doing my 136 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:14,559 Speaker 2: first attempt at a pH d, which I then moved 137 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 2: on to something else. But one of my supervisors, she 138 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 2: was a doctor and a research change. She said to me, 139 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 2: because I was doing a study, We're measuring metabolic syndrome 140 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 2: in people and often, you know, they take the central 141 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 2: obesity high blood pressure of the traguler said to the HDL, 142 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 2: but often their glucose wasn't too bad. And she said 143 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 2: to me, glucose is typically the last thing to go, 144 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 2: and that gives people a false sense of security because 145 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 2: they tend to really look at their glucose and type 146 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 2: two diabetes and they think I'm okay. But is that 147 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 2: your observation as well, that it tends to be the 148 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 2: last to go. 149 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:55,599 Speaker 3: Oh. Absolutely. 150 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 1: It's funny that having this discussion be because that was 151 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: my conclusion to years ago, like, you know, I don't 152 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: care what your blood glucos is, but I will do 153 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: an insulin and more interested. I would want I get 154 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: all my patients to do a continuous glucose monitor. So yes, 155 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: I do care what the glucosi is, but not just 156 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: on that Tuesday morning am fasting test. You know, I 157 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 1: was like, Okay, it's five point four and that's not 158 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: very good. I'd like to see it around four point five. 159 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: But it's inside the normal range. And everyone thinks they've 160 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: got away with it and they're fine. But if you 161 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: do a continuous glucose monitor and you can see the 162 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:39,319 Speaker 1: pattern through the day, the days and the weeks, then 163 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 1: you start to see all the zig zag peaks and 164 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: troughs that people go through, and that is the big 165 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:47,119 Speaker 1: driver for insulent resistance. 166 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, and now I'm a massifier the continuous monitor. I 167 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:54,439 Speaker 2: think everybody should should try it at least once, because 168 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 2: it gives you some really interesting insights, doesn't it. Because 169 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 2: one food you might spike your blood glucose ridiculously, and 170 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 2: then for me it'll be fine, and then another food 171 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 2: it will be vice versa. Right, and this one size 172 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 2: fits all approach is complete and other nonsense when it 173 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 2: comes to nutrition. 174 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, And it's not just the food, but 175 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: how you put the food together on the plate, and 176 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: then what you do after eating it or what have 177 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:23,839 Speaker 1: you done before eating it? And then sometimes even when 178 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: you haven't even eaten, what's your codisol levels, like adrenaline levels, 179 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: like you learn all sorts of great things around your 180 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: whole you know, psychology and everything. 181 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:40,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that what you do after you eat as well, 182 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,959 Speaker 2: and the mix of stuff, right, having protein, having fat 183 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 2: with it really reduces the big spike. Having some citrus, 184 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 2: but even just going for a walk after dinner as 185 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 2: a profound effect on people's bloodluoks. I mean, if I 186 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 2: was bizarre at the universe, I would make everybody go 187 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 2: for a walk after dinner. 188 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 1: If you was the universe call, we would all be 189 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,079 Speaker 1: unbreakable and the world would be completely different. 190 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 3: And I want to have a. 191 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 1: Job, No, well I would I wouldn't have a job, 192 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: and I'd be delighted. 193 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 2: So we know if you have metabolic syndrome, your risk 194 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:31,679 Speaker 2: of cardiovascar disease, tattoo diabetes, non alcoholic fat delivered disease, 195 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 2: chronic kidney disease, PCOS, sleepop near cancerus, dementia, that it 196 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 2: all goes through the roof. And and that's really the 197 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 2: crux of the issue, isn't it. It's metabolism gone role 198 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 2: for people. 199 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:51,679 Speaker 1: Yes, And what's underlying the metabolism gone wrong is the 200 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: metabolic pathways, of course, and what determines the metabolic pathways 201 00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:58,319 Speaker 1: is the mitochondria. 202 00:11:59,000 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 3: And that's why I asked. 203 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: The almost twenty years of nutritional integrated medicine, I've landed 204 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: squarely on the mitochondria. I mean, I've been following the 205 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:12,719 Speaker 1: whole mitochondry story for about over ten years and. 206 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 3: Really is seeking more and more answers for the sick. 207 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 1: There's very complex, very unnamable chronic neurological, weird illnesses, and 208 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: you have to come down to really, in the end 209 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: what works in the patients. 210 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 3: And I find that that's where one has to go to. 211 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 2: So why your interests, I mean, you've been interested in 212 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 2: the mitochondry much longer than me. I've come to probably 213 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 2: in the last five years and then just realized by 214 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 2: critical it is. So can we talk about just for 215 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 2: the lay people who might even not know what mitochondria is, 216 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 2: give us a bit of a definition, and then just 217 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 2: give us a sense of what mitochondria do in the body, 218 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,079 Speaker 2: how wide bread they are, you know, how they're involved 219 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,319 Speaker 2: in your overall health spoostigical or mental. 220 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: Okay, so I mean starting at the beginning, just from 221 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: a cell biology perspective, Mitochondria are little mini structures, so organelles, 222 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:24,559 Speaker 1: mini organelles inside the cell, like one hundred to a 223 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: thousand of them, depending on what kind of cell you are, 224 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:30,559 Speaker 1: a nerve cell, a brain cell, a muscle cell, or 225 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: bone cell, whatever. So the number of mitochondria depends on 226 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: what the function is of that cell, and the more 227 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: energy that cell needs, a more mi chondria there are, 228 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: so that would be all the neurons, all the muscles. 229 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: That's where we have got most mitochondria because they can 230 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 1: never stop, like your heart never stops, your brain never stops, 231 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 1: you know, when you sleep, it's all still pumping around, 232 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: working away. So the mitochondria typic we've all learned it 233 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: as they are the organelles that make energy for the cell. 234 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 1: And the terminology that being used for a long time 235 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: is mitochondria are powerhouses of the cell and they power 236 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: up everything. 237 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 3: And that really is true. 238 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: But in my talk I was just trying to bring 239 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: a bit of a nuance in that it's not just 240 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: they're not just pumping out energy because we need more energy, 241 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: we want more energy. The nuances that we actually also 242 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: have to do things to feed the energy, like create 243 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: create the whole environment, the whole landscape. That the mitochondria 244 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: make energy very fluidly and just very naturally rather than 245 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: like we're trying to squeeze out this energy. So that 246 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: my TOD wanted to bring more nuance because it was 247 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: a group of doctors and integrative practitioners and we all 248 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: know that you know, we've given supplements for mitochondrial energy 249 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: blah blah. But so we'll come to the more nuanced later. 250 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: But back to the basics of mitochondria. So they are 251 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 1: in fact processing energy, and they're like a battery of 252 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: the cell, and like batteries as positive negative charge, they 253 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: hold the charge and it's like a capacitor that you 254 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:25,479 Speaker 1: know that gives you energy. And mitochondria have their own genes, 255 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: So that's also a newer level of discussion around mitochondria, 256 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: not just that they make energy, but they've got their 257 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: own genes. 258 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 3: They've got thirty seven genes. Our our the rest of 259 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 3: our cell. 260 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: In the nucleus. Everybody knows we've got all our DNA. 261 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: That's twenty zero genes in there, but the mitochondria have 262 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: thirty seven genes and those g half of those genes 263 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 1: make the most important energy producing like machinery proteins pathways 264 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: for making energy. So if that doesn't work, the genes 265 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 1: there aren't happy, which is the discussions on epigenetics. 266 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 3: Like what are you what are you doing. 267 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: That alters your genetic function. So if you're doing things 268 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: that your mitochondria genes and the epigenetics it's not too 269 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: happy about what you're doing, then it's going to alter 270 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: how much energy you are transducing through that mitochondria. 271 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 3: So that would be the basics that mitochondria. 272 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: Are there to power up our biology, and why they 273 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: do it is like amazingly complex with its evolutionary pathways. 274 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: They're highly conserved. You know, you can't just they didn't 275 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: just change. 276 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 3: Over a few generations. They've been there like forever. 277 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: And then how it came about with prokaryotic cells and 278 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: eukaryotic cells, so all that, like early life are genetics 279 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: that comes from the work of Nick Laine. 280 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, these these cells that you just mentioned, there's some 281 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 2: of the earliest life on Earth, right, So, yeah, the 282 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:09,119 Speaker 2: mitochondria have been around since there was life on Earth. 283 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 2: Yeah that's that's pretty frigging important, isn't it. 284 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:15,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, that's right. 285 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: So they've been around since there's been life on Earth 286 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:24,640 Speaker 1: because they just knew how to use oxygen. And life 287 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: on Earth was about like sulfur and all those hot 288 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 1: gases from the vents deep in the sea and then 289 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: oxygen bubbling up and then how's life going to be formed? 290 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: And somehow by magic, you know, these early life forms 291 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: knew or found ways to use oxygen. So mitochondria need 292 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 1: to use oxygen, that's its obligate function. But it doesn't 293 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:54,199 Speaker 1: use oxygen. It's just half asked, basically, like it's just 294 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: creeping along and you end up in anaerobic metabolism, which 295 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: when the cell just has basic energy through sugars and glycolysis, 296 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: but not to really burning fat, not to really burning 297 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:12,639 Speaker 1: through oxygen, not making heaps more atp that energy currency 298 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: in the cell. 299 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 2: Are there certain beheaviors lifestyle beheaviors that then ramp down 300 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 2: the effectiveness of the mitochondria and switch us into that 301 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 2: more anaerobic metabolism, And then what are the issues with that? Obviously, 302 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 2: when we're exercising. If you're exercising intensely, right, then you're 303 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 2: an anaerobic metabolism. But I'm talking just generally, what are 304 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 2: some of the issues of the mitochondria not working well. 305 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: It would be feeding it a lot of sugar, or 306 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: just feeding the system sugar. If you just have simple 307 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: glucose and you can just rely on glycolysis, and let's 308 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: say that's not enough oxygen around. So let's say, well, 309 00:18:56,560 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 1: broadly speaking, I suppose it would be breathing. Moving size 310 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: definitely does play unto it quite split it apart. Yes, 311 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: if you're exercising intensively, then you're going on anaerobic. But 312 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: just the fact of blood moving, pumping, there's going to 313 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:15,360 Speaker 1: be oxygen flow, you're breathing, it's that whole movement of things. 314 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,199 Speaker 1: But if there isn't that and that's not moving up 315 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: very well, and then there's just a lot of sugar 316 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: and glucose, then you don't need to kick called a 317 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: fatty acid, it's called beet oxidation pathways into gear. You 318 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:33,959 Speaker 1: could just be very lazy and rely on glucose and 319 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: so it's a whole lifetime or years of doing that 320 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: that you can just downtrain your metabolic pathways to not 321 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: learn how to burn fat very well. 322 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 2: I interviewed Professor Richard Johnson on the podcast. He produced 323 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 2: a really interesting research paper around f choks and how 324 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 2: frigtoks creates a metabolic crisis in the ma to chondria. 325 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 2: And his research is really interesting because he was an 326 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 2: anthropologist originally and he studied the Great Apes and he 327 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 2: showed that the Great Apes millions of years ago had 328 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 2: a genetical mutitian some of them were when they at fructose, 329 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 2: they got fat and that was naturally selected for. And 330 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 2: he's shown that basically it's to do with the urycase 331 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 2: gene that every Homo sapient on the planet has the 332 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 2: same version of the urycase gene, where we overconsole fructose 333 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 2: and we create a metabolic crisis and we shut down 334 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 2: energy production in the mitochondria. That then ramps up our 335 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:48,640 Speaker 2: hunger mechanisms and just basically shuts down your energy. Are 336 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 2: you familiar with that stuff? 337 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: I can't remember about all those pathways. 338 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 3: I've heard them before, but. 339 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 2: I have Poi Poiol pathway. I think it was the 340 00:20:58,600 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 2: Poio pathway from. 341 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 1: Memory and when we eat fructose, you actually need to 342 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:07,239 Speaker 1: use more ATP to convert it to glucose before you 343 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:11,399 Speaker 1: can use it as energy. And so it was a 344 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 1: bit of a misunderstanding to think that you could just 345 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 1: eat heaps of fruit to get more energy. You are 346 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: filling the liver up with more fatty liver, basically more glycogen, 347 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: and then it takes more energy to get ATP from 348 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 1: fructose than from glucose. 349 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so that's where the metabolic crisis comes. So, 350 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:43,120 Speaker 2: Chris Palmer, so I read his book recently about brain energy, 351 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 2: which I'm presuming that you have read as well. I mean, 352 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 2: that was pretty fascinating doing and it kind of makes 353 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 2: sense right when I read it, I'm like, oh, duh, 354 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:57,199 Speaker 2: Holy of course, right, because as you said, and I 355 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 2: never thought about this way, we know that is very 356 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 2: very hungry energetically, right. It's like three to three percent 357 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 2: of the year of body we have but uses twenty 358 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 2: five to thirty percent of the energy. And it's the 359 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 2: mitochondria that are pretty central to this. And he basically 360 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:22,440 Speaker 2: shown that very much every mental health conditional or more 361 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 2: than mental health actually and brillant health issues are at 362 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 2: least partly because of mitochondrial dysfunction. So talk us through 363 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 2: that a little bit, like, how does that happen? 364 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 1: I think when you say it's partly mitochondrial dysfunction, I 365 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: would say partly because the picture is different than everyone. 366 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 1: Why is someone parkinson, someone ms, someone als And so 367 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: you might think, well, the mitochondria is partly at play 368 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,719 Speaker 1: because everyone is presenting differently. But I would say that 369 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 1: the mitochondria is wholly fundamentally under aligning the neurophysiological inflammatory 370 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 1: processes that haven't been able to be pulled back like 371 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: they're full in force, because the mitochondria haven't got enough 372 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,399 Speaker 1: bio energetics behind it to pull back and to regulate. 373 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 1: So I'd say that mitochondrial dysfunction is inside every neurological condition, neurinflammatory, autism, depression, schizophrenia, 374 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 1: mental health, brain health. I mean I don't like saying 375 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: mental health. I say brain health because it is. Yes, yeah, 376 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: and so why does that happen? It's really the balance 377 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: of mitochondrial mismatch. And that's the work put together by 378 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 1: Robert Navio. So in about twenty eleven or twelve, he 379 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: published his first set of papers on something called the 380 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: cell danger response. 381 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 3: Oh yes, yes, yes. 382 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,880 Speaker 1: Before that he was a see already a mitochondria researcher. 383 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: He's a pediatric geneticist MD from the US. I think UCSD. 384 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 1: And so the cell danger response is when the metabolic 385 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 1: slash mitochondria pathways just cannot anymore handle all the information overload. 386 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 1: So the information overload comes from those highly conserved metabolic 387 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: mitochondrial pathways that have to deal with what evolved with us, 388 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 1: which is what are the signals coming from attackers. So 389 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: the attackers would usually be viruses, but can be bacteria 390 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 1: as well. So in the Precambrian, you know, prokaryotic sea 391 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: of life, it was just like viruses and mitochondria knew 392 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 1: how to live with that, and they just had their 393 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: ways of managing their their ions, their metal ions and ions. 394 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: Catire is to save resources for themselves or they're being 395 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: stolen by a virus or that they're fighting to keep 396 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 1: that back. So the cell danger response is the mitochondria 397 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: dealing with attack or the attack is not too bad. 398 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:20,120 Speaker 1: So he calls it peace time and wartime metabolism. So 399 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 1: when we have wartime metabolism, we have viruses, we have 400 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 1: bacteria and infections that are overwhelming the innate immune pathways. 401 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 1: Which are set up by the mitochondria. Because some people 402 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: would know, Okay, yeah, innate pathways when you have a virus, 403 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 1: and then you get your first immune system response and 404 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 1: then adaptive pathways and memory for later. Yes, yes, but 405 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:50,679 Speaker 1: at that very tiny cellular mitochondria level, it is the 406 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 1: mitochondria that sets up the innate response for your immune system. 407 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 1: And that is why, well, guess why the people who 408 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: struggle with COVID where the diabetics and the metabolic syndromes 409 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: and the OBEs and the hypertensives, and they already have 410 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 1: mitochondria that are like limping along. 411 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 2: Like yeah, interesting, So they've already got damaged mitochondria and 412 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 2: then you have COVID and the cyberkine storm that goes 413 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 2: with that. And it's because they've got weak, defenseless mitochondria 414 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 2: that they get overwhelmed basically their immune systems. 415 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, so the innate immunity is before the cytokine storm, 416 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 1: So the cytokine storm will only unfold and not get 417 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 1: balanced or pulled back if there isn't enough mitochondria resource 418 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 1: and the cell danger response is too overwhelming. 419 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:46,400 Speaker 3: So the cell danger. 420 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:51,360 Speaker 1: Response would be fighting the external world of bad guys. 421 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 1: But if nowadays the external. 422 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 3: World of bad guys is sure the glucose. 423 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 1: For metabolic pop's from not enough muscle mass, too much 424 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 1: other post tissue not exercising, blah blah, and then excess 425 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: glucoses also taking away resources from the mitochondria. And then 426 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: the last bit would be toxins. So in the Precambrian times, 427 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: they probably didn't have toxins, but they had maybe natural 428 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,919 Speaker 1: toxins of you know, mercarine, too much sulfur or too 429 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: much nitrogen, things like that. But today's world of toxins 430 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: is a whole different story, right, Like we're totally overloaded 431 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:41,439 Speaker 1: with heavy metals, with ntocrine disrupting chemicals, with pfasts, like 432 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 1: all those things are basically tying your mitochondria's hands behind 433 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: their back and using up their resources. So then you 434 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 1: end up having a system that just doesn't have enough 435 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,679 Speaker 1: power inside of itself to deal with what would be 436 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 1: natural and normal to meet viruses that that's natural and normal, 437 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 1: But then it's become unnatural and abnormal to have such a. 438 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 3: Heavy toxic load and to eat the way we do. 439 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 2: And then you throw in a lack of physical activity 440 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 2: and poor diet as well. And then what's happening and 441 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 2: from a very simplistic perspective, if I just kind of 442 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 2: pull back, is number one, your mitochondria getting overloaded from 443 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 2: all of these toxic insults. But because of the lifestyle, 444 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,920 Speaker 2: your mitochondria really aren't well trained. Right. It's like having 445 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 2: Dad's army who have just done no training whatsoever, and 446 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 2: they're pretty weak and pathetic, and then you put them 447 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 2: up against an army of different invaders, all coming from 448 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 2: different directions. It's not hard to see now how everything 449 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 2: gets overwhelmed. So when you add all of those different 450 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 2: toxins and insults from the environment, the oxidat of stress, 451 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 2: and then you know, we haven't be talked about out 452 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 2: a post tissue and what happens without a post tissue 453 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 2: from a metabolic perspective, because and particularly visceral fat, right, 454 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 2: which is different completely, and then you're not exercising and 455 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 2: you're having shared our slin yeah disaster. 456 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 3: Yeah. 457 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: So you as a sports scientist, you know you want 458 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: to talk about like myokinds and adipo kines, right, so 459 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: that all the inflammatory kinds or signaling that comes from 460 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: muscles and fat and so mitochondria have the same they 461 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: have mitokinds. So mitokinds are the signaling of that cell 462 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: danger response to say, okay, are we in wartime metabolism? 463 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 3: Do we have to put barriers up. 464 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 1: Around our boundaries other invaders coming in from the different countries, 465 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: and they literally put barriers up around the boundaries, and 466 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: that's what cell membranes do. So the mitochondria inside the 467 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: cells will know that there's a fight coming. And then 468 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: they're going to change the structure of the phospholipids of 469 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: the cell membranes and they're going to change your signaling. 470 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: And what they do is they release ATP not as energy, 471 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: which is what we said earlier. ATP is typically known 472 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: as the energy currency, but ATP is also are mitokind 473 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: and ATP when it's produced. 474 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 3: Outside of the cell. 475 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: So inside the mitochondria they're producing ATP and that's energy. 476 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: But then there's like, oh there's war, open your gates, 477 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: get the armies outs, and all these signals. The ATP 478 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 1: will come outside of the mitochondria, outside of the cell, 479 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 1: and that is your equivalent of your adipokine and new miokines, 480 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: and it's signaling danger. 481 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 3: And then that's when then the you start to trigger 482 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 3: off all that outside. 483 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: The kind storm and what's called the anal r P 484 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: three inflammasomes. 485 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 2: Right, okay, which then drives lots of different conditions right 486 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 2: from a metabolic in the body to the breeding as well. 487 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 2: Let's talk a little bit about mital hormesis, right, So 488 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 2: my listeners will be pretty familiar with hormesis because they 489 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 2: know I'm a big fan and you talked about hormeteris 490 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 2: on mistige, which is why I'm like, where have you 491 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 2: beat all my life? 492 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 1: Right? 493 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 2: So talk to us about just you know, go anywhere 494 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 2: with you walk with this, just around hormesis and then 495 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 2: diving into mityal hormesis, what it is, why it's useful, 496 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 2: all of these sorts of things. Just give us that 497 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 2: primer on it. 498 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 1: So homesis when I first learned that word would be 499 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 1: in toxicology, and as an environmental physician, my background was 500 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: learning a lot about toxicology, and homesis was that word 501 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 1: that described that J shaped curve of the dose makes 502 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: the response. So loadoses, okay, high dose could kill you. 503 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 1: But then interestingly, you know there are other fields that 504 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:12,080 Speaker 1: were overlapping, like homeopathy, which is technically not scientific, you know, yes. 505 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 2: But that we technically woo woo. 506 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 1: But when technically but from a home mesa's lens, they 507 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: were showing that the dose makes a response as well, 508 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: and that whether it's a physical low dose of a 509 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: heavy metal or a plastic or radiation things that are 510 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 1: you know, said to be bad for you in big doses, 511 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: low doses did do something beneficial for the system. 512 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 3: So the body had this. 513 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 1: Adaptive response to learn to get a signal, learn something, 514 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: and up regulate a pathway to deal with it. And 515 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: if the dose is just right, then you learn that 516 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 1: pathway to deal with it in a positive way that 517 00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 1: helps and supports biology and creates resiliendience. But if the 518 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: dose is too high, then that's a J shaped curve 519 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 1: that you fall off the other. 520 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 3: End that's not good for you. 521 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 1: So homemesis from the very beginning was how I learned. 522 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: It was all around exposure to toxicity. But then in 523 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: the last decade it's very much being around bringing it 524 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 1: into the longevity discussions and aging discussions, and then now 525 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: mityl resilience, you know, bringing it into the discussion of psychobiology. 526 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: So there's that maybe we'll come to this later mitochondrial 527 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: psycho biology, which I love, but all different words for 528 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,959 Speaker 1: the same things that we love. So yeah, mityl resilience. 529 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: The whole thesis. 530 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 3: What was not very well. 531 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: Understood, like why does wholemesis exist? 532 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 3: Like it was very strange. Nature does these things very strangely. 533 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: It's like, wow, that was what they observed but could 534 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: never really explain it. But we are observing more and 535 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: more of these pathways and understanding it more, and in 536 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: the end, you know, it's like nature exists, but science 537 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 1: is there to try and explain nature. 538 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,799 Speaker 2: And can I just jump in with some real practical 539 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 2: learnings from hormesis for people. It's kind of summed up 540 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,319 Speaker 2: by Frederick nietzchre right that which does not kill us 541 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 2: makes us stronger, And he just forgot the brackets as 542 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:26,439 Speaker 2: long as you get the dose correct, right. So it 543 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,280 Speaker 2: was Edward Calibrizi, I think, was one of the first 544 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 2: to discover it when he was a PhD student and 545 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 2: he was giving levels of plant toxins what's the name 546 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:42,759 Speaker 2: of them, pesticides to plants and he was trying to 547 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 2: work out what was the minimal effect of dose to 548 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 2: kill a plant and he found you know, at certain 549 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 2: doses the plant died, and then as he reduced it, 550 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 2: the plant started to flourish and grew better than plants 551 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 2: who hadn't had any poison. Effectively, that was where it 552 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 2: kind of first I learned. But now we know British 553 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 2: medical radiologists who were exposed to what they thought was 554 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 2: dangerous levels of radiation in the sixties actually when they 555 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 2: were followed up, had less cancer than their peers who 556 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 2: weren't exposed to it. And there's a whole heap of 557 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:20,839 Speaker 2: things like Chernobyl accident recovery workers, not the ones who 558 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 2: were in Chernobyl at the time of the nuclear leak, 559 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,239 Speaker 2: but the ones who went in to rescue them, and 560 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:28,840 Speaker 2: they thought, oh god, these guys got too much radiation. 561 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 2: They're going to get cancer. They followed them up, they 562 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:36,400 Speaker 2: got less cancer than other workers who were the same 563 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 2: basically the same as them, but who hadn't gone in 564 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:42,759 Speaker 2: to do the recovery so had not been exposed to 565 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 2: the radiation. And so you know, exercises are hermetic, stress 566 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 2: or cold hate, all of those sorts of things. So 567 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 2: just I wanted to make gither that homies is a 568 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 2: real world context for people right before we dive into 569 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 2: the mito stuff. 570 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's fascinating what you shaid, thank you, that 571 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:05,240 Speaker 1: was yeah, just what doesn't kill you makes he's stronger. 572 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: And so back to the mital resilience or mital homesis. 573 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: It is a mitochondria's metabolic pathways that allows this amazing 574 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 1: thing called homesis to actually unfold in a positive way 575 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,360 Speaker 1: to make you stronger and better and more adaptive and 576 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 1: so on, and it is it is the foundation for 577 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:34,239 Speaker 1: adaptive medicine and adaptive medicine, you know, from the Russians. 578 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 4: Oh, that's a. 579 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 2: Nice term, adaptive medicine. That cool. 580 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:42,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, so that the adaptive medicine really came originally from 581 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 1: the Russians. Adaptive medicine is not used very much, but 582 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 1: we've been using it more in our recent new practice 583 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: and because it's really wanting to teach people to adapt better. 584 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: But they, of course, you know, true to the Russians, 585 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,239 Speaker 1: what doesn't kill you makes you stronger? And is ending 586 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 1: up the fighter pilots with no cockpit and they're up 587 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:07,360 Speaker 1: in hypoxia, Like, why do you train these guys to 588 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 1: survive hypoxia? Well, do hypoxic training? So hypoxic training, and 589 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: probably in the spots where you probably know it's altitude training, 590 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 1: it was like, that is seriously powerful adaptive medicine a plane. 591 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:25,360 Speaker 1: Why does it work because when you when you expose 592 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 1: your mitochondria to what it evolved in, Like, mitochondria evolved 593 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:33,360 Speaker 1: through nature knowing how to deal with cold, how to 594 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:37,720 Speaker 1: deal with not enough oxygen. So when you expose yourself 595 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 1: to not enough oxygen, there's just all these highly conserved 596 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 1: pathways that go, oh, I remember that kicking kickin. Let's 597 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:51,359 Speaker 1: upregulate those oxygen using oxygen efficiency pathways, and then you 598 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:56,720 Speaker 1: get these incredibly strong mitochondria from regularly exposing and training 599 00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 1: yourself in hypoxia. So intermittent hyper training is one of 600 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:08,440 Speaker 1: my favorite amazing metabolic resilience training tools, not just in sports. 601 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: There's a ton of research of it in sports and 602 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 1: NASA and the Army and all of that, but there's 603 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: now thankfully increasing research in what I deal with the 604 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 1: chronic disease end of the spectrum with chronic fatigue syndromes, 605 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 1: long COVID for sure, metabolic syndromes. It's good literature on 606 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 1: like reversing metabolic disease Type two diabetes, Like if you 607 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,320 Speaker 1: catch it early enough and you just do HT intermiddent 608 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 1: hypoxy training, you can actually reverse metabolic syndrome. 609 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:49,359 Speaker 2: Well, because you're then stimulating the mitochondria to adapt. Right, Yeah, 610 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 2: I wanted to just you talked about conserves. You've mentioned 611 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:54,920 Speaker 2: a couple of times, just in case that word has 612 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 2: slipped past our listeners. When you say conserved, you mean 613 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 2: conserve devolutionarily, So it's been presenting for millions of years, right, 614 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 2: So these are ancient cellular responses to mild stress that 615 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:15,759 Speaker 2: create adaptation that actually then benefits the host. Right, And 616 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:16,879 Speaker 2: that's the key thing. 617 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:18,279 Speaker 3: That's the key thing. 618 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,160 Speaker 1: And that's the key thing that Robert Navio was really 619 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 1: highlighting in that in that whole new generation of mitochondrial 620 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 1: discussions from ten years ago. It's these conserved Pathways's not 621 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 1: just that they make u entity. There's these conserved pathways 622 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,560 Speaker 1: that have to be almost seen to understood where do 623 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,560 Speaker 1: they fit in? So then if you've got too much 624 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 1: toxicity not enough nutrient load, then those conserved pathways take 625 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,799 Speaker 1: a different direction because that's how they are. 626 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:51,399 Speaker 3: That's how they are. 627 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,400 Speaker 2: Tell me this, how does I don't know if you've 628 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:58,720 Speaker 2: been experiencing this. But hyperbaric oxygen therapy does that play 629 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,400 Speaker 2: into mito horn? Miss? How are we talking a different 630 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:02,439 Speaker 2: pathway here? 631 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:05,399 Speaker 1: It does play in and it probably plays in at 632 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,200 Speaker 1: a different level in terms of how strong you want 633 00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:12,160 Speaker 1: to get, let's say, So it does play in that. 634 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:17,640 Speaker 1: Hyperbaric oxygen is considered a hormetic stress, so that is 635 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 1: also you know, it's like, well if you think Goldielock's 636 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,240 Speaker 1: not too much, not too little, just right, But yeah, 637 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:26,440 Speaker 1: I mean you do want to do both. 638 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,240 Speaker 3: So hyperbaric is a stress. 639 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:33,960 Speaker 1: And for other patient category where they are not well, 640 00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:39,720 Speaker 1: there is you know, especially like tvis brain conditions, their 641 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,320 Speaker 1: redox pathways are not going very well, they're not recovering 642 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:48,240 Speaker 1: from exercise, things like that. Hyperbaric oxygen definitely is useful, 643 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 1: has a role to play, and I love hyperbaric oxygen. 644 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 3: I use it a lot in my patients. 645 00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:56,880 Speaker 1: But I would say that if I was an athlete, 646 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,080 Speaker 1: like I wasn't a sick patient. 647 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,280 Speaker 3: Then I'll be doing IHT. So it's just the level 648 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:04,319 Speaker 3: of where is. 649 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:08,319 Speaker 1: Your training capacity at Your redox is pretty good and 650 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,880 Speaker 1: you're quite well, and you don't. 651 00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:12,560 Speaker 3: Necessarily need hyperbaric. 652 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,520 Speaker 2: Oxygen, which it's expensive, right, and. 653 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:16,600 Speaker 3: It's a more passive thing. 654 00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:20,280 Speaker 1: It's not that expensive because it's becoming more popular now. 655 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:22,759 Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean whether it's eighty or. 656 00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:25,239 Speaker 1: One hundred and twenty dollars a session depending where you go, 657 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,239 Speaker 1: for sure, but intermittent hypoxic training is probably around the 658 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:32,479 Speaker 1: same cost or more depending on the systems that you use. 659 00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,600 Speaker 1: But it's more that it's training to whether you want 660 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,439 Speaker 1: to call it a deeper level of getting deep into 661 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:43,080 Speaker 1: those metabolic pathways that can really be trained up and 662 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:47,640 Speaker 1: training you to DeFore deep bus higher level rather than 663 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:49,799 Speaker 1: passively helping you. 664 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,880 Speaker 2: Gotcha. So if you have some sort of chronic disease 665 00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,760 Speaker 2: here spot and the hyperbaric oxygen, it can be more appropriate. 666 00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,520 Speaker 2: But if you're functioning way out and you just want 667 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:04,200 Speaker 2: to function even better in terms of performance cellular and 668 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:09,080 Speaker 2: exercise performance, and the intermittent typoxia is the way. Is 669 00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:09,840 Speaker 2: that what you're saying? 670 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:10,799 Speaker 3: Yeah, it is. 671 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,759 Speaker 1: I mean if I was an athlete, and I'm not 672 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:18,359 Speaker 1: really if I was an athlete, then I would do 673 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,840 Speaker 1: all that exercise that you do, and then I would 674 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:25,240 Speaker 1: I do i HT regularly and then I would recover 675 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,520 Speaker 1: with cold and I would recover with red light. 676 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,719 Speaker 2: Yes, I want to do you want to talk about red light, 677 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,000 Speaker 2: but before we get onto it, just because we're talking 678 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:40,279 Speaker 2: about oxygen, but so carbon dioxide, so intermittent exposure to 679 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:45,279 Speaker 2: higher levels of carbon dioxide also seems to be beneficial. 680 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,840 Speaker 2: Are you familiar with any of this stuff? Talk to 681 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:49,560 Speaker 2: talk us through this. 682 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:54,560 Speaker 1: Yes, I'm not sure about intermittent levels of carbon dioxide 683 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,320 Speaker 1: because the way I see it is, first, carbon dioxide 684 00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:01,560 Speaker 1: needs to be at a particular level, or a minimal level, 685 00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:05,359 Speaker 1: and when people drop below that level, then that's when 686 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:09,399 Speaker 1: we see problems. So the problems that are related, they're 687 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,280 Speaker 1: called they call a few different names. But some people 688 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:16,800 Speaker 1: call it hyperventilation syndrome. Some people call it hypocapnic syndrome. 689 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,279 Speaker 1: It's just low COEO two. So COEO two should sit 690 00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:24,640 Speaker 1: probably anywhere between thirty five to forty millimeters of mercury. 691 00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,680 Speaker 3: But a lot of people are sitting at butty one 692 00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:28,399 Speaker 3: birty two. 693 00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,560 Speaker 1: And if you're not very good and that kind of 694 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:36,600 Speaker 1: breathing very fast, quite experiencing a lot of anxiety, maybe 695 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:39,680 Speaker 1: it's chronic pain. It's not like it's just psychological, it's 696 00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:44,960 Speaker 1: just it's neurophysiological. To breathe faster, and to breathe more. 697 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,440 Speaker 1: When you're in pain, in discomfort, in distress, feeling some 698 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:53,840 Speaker 1: level of emotional whether it's abuse or trauma or whatever, 699 00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,480 Speaker 1: people will just breathe faster. So then that COEO two 700 00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,479 Speaker 1: will drop when you breathe faster, And when your CEO 701 00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:05,160 Speaker 1: two drops, then you lose MITO resilience. You lose resilience 702 00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:09,040 Speaker 1: overall of the neurophysiology. So then that the nerve there 703 00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,480 Speaker 1: more twitchy. Because carbon dioxide is actually a new transit, 704 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:15,600 Speaker 1: gaseous new transmits as well, a bit like nitric oxide. 705 00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:22,160 Speaker 2: Interesting, Yeah, so I'm talking about here deliberate hypercapnia. So 706 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:27,120 Speaker 2: carbon dioxide COEO too tolerance training like free divers, and 707 00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:32,759 Speaker 2: some athletes now are doing too, and some amazing benefits 708 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:37,240 Speaker 2: from interest. So it's a harmetic stress or intermittent hypercapnia. 709 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,800 Speaker 2: And I know a couple of guys who train athletes 710 00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:45,240 Speaker 2: and are getting them to do carbon dioxide tolerance training 711 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:51,759 Speaker 2: and actually getting really good increases in physical performance afterwards. 712 00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,680 Speaker 2: And it's again it's this hormetic stressor that which does 713 00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:56,359 Speaker 2: not kill you makes you stronger, but you get that 714 00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:57,279 Speaker 2: wrong and you die. 715 00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:01,200 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, Yeah, I loved read more about what the 716 00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:05,640 Speaker 1: hypower capnia does just at the mitochondria level. 717 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 3: I don't know, but I do. 718 00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:10,600 Speaker 1: I do know that from the it's a bit like 719 00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,960 Speaker 1: you know, they call it well with mito resilience and 720 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:20,640 Speaker 1: psychophysical resilience. So it's like these three divers and people 721 00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,640 Speaker 1: you're pointing to, they're already trained up at a particular level. 722 00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,160 Speaker 1: You can be sure they do not experience high pole capnia. 723 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:30,279 Speaker 1: You can be sure their COE two is already super good. 724 00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:33,120 Speaker 1: You can be sure they're really very good at breath 725 00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:35,719 Speaker 1: holding in all of this. So they're already at a 726 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:43,120 Speaker 1: very optimized like reados mitochondrial sellar level. And because they've 727 00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:46,960 Speaker 1: got that, they're really they're pulling in so much capacity 728 00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:51,560 Speaker 1: of their mind, so their mind, the mind mitochondria, so 729 00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:54,640 Speaker 1: they can pull in so much more like focus and 730 00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:57,120 Speaker 1: training and pushing like major boundaries with. 731 00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:58,200 Speaker 3: Their mind and I wouldn't. 732 00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:00,960 Speaker 1: And what can they do with the heart right variability 733 00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,719 Speaker 1: and the fatal tone must be amazing and they'll be 734 00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,879 Speaker 1: like the modern Yogis of the underworld, you know that's 735 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:09,480 Speaker 1: undersea world. 736 00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's some there's some pretty cool stuff actually about 737 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:18,600 Speaker 2: carbon dioxide tolerance training. Are sorry your your carbon dioxide 738 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:23,320 Speaker 2: tolerance is actually predictive of success in special forces selection 739 00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:29,760 Speaker 2: because it's a marker, a general marker of overall diychological 740 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:33,839 Speaker 2: distress tolerance, right, because it's freaking horrible doing that type 741 00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:37,719 Speaker 2: of training. It's really psychologically, it's really tough as well, 742 00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:39,840 Speaker 2: it's physically challenging everybody. 743 00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:43,040 Speaker 5: So unfortunately that brings us to the end of Part 744 00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:47,279 Speaker 5: one with doctor Cristabel and we have covered all the 745 00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:50,560 Speaker 5: essentials of metabolic health and them particularly the role of 746 00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:51,440 Speaker 5: the mitochondria. 747 00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:54,919 Speaker 4: Make sure you tune in next week where Crystabell goes 748 00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:58,439 Speaker 4: through a whole range of practical strategies that we can 749 00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:02,720 Speaker 4: do to enhance our mitochondrial health and therefore our overall health, 750 00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:07,440 Speaker 4: including exercise, nutritional and light strategies. Catching expert