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Speaker 1: Nick Wignoll, Welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me on.

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Speaker 1: You are the first.

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Speaker 3: Individual from Albuquerque, New Mexico, and that's so New Mexico

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Speaker 3: south southwest.

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Speaker 2: We're kind of sandwiched in between Texas and Arizona.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been around that area.

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Speaker 4: G thirty years ago, I was traveling and working in

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Speaker 4: the States and we had an RV and.

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Speaker 1: Went all the way round that.

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Speaker 4: Man, just this scenery is unbelievable, isn't it wild?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And it can be so diverse, it can change

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Speaker 2: so quickly. You know, you're you think you're in the desert,

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Speaker 2: and all of a sudden you're up in the mountains

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Speaker 2: and there's aspen trees.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's wild. Yeah, it's pretty fantastic stuff.

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Speaker 4: So, mate, you are a clinical psychologist by back, I'm true,

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Speaker 4: but also the founder of loom, where you do high

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Speaker 4: performance stuff for businesses, for leadership teams and that sort

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Speaker 4: of thing. But today we are we're going to poke

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Speaker 4: the burr a little bit, right because I've had quite

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Speaker 4: a few clinical psychologists on all talking about the positive stuff.

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Speaker 4: And you've got a really cool newsletter and you take

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Speaker 4: a different slant on things and So first of all,

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Speaker 4: let's talk about emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence is everywhere, right,

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Speaker 4: and people talking about how we need to increase our

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Speaker 4: EQ and all of that, and there's businesses that do

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Speaker 4: EQ training, and now you have a bit of an

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Speaker 4: approach that it's a bit overrated, so they can tell

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Speaker 4: us what you mean by that.

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Speaker 1: Let's dive into that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, part of it is maybe I'm just sick of

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Speaker 2: seeing it everywhere and hearing everyone talk about it and

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Speaker 2: kind of what I would consider slightly sloppy terms, like

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Speaker 2: it's kind of vague in general what people meeting by

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Speaker 2: EQ or by emotional intelligence. So I think what And

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Speaker 2: the first thing I'll say is like, overrated doesn't mean important, right,

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Speaker 2: And that's really is. It is important, But I think

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Speaker 2: the question is important relative to what else because we

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Speaker 2: all have limited time and energy to put into things

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Speaker 2: and to focus on things, especially to try and work

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Speaker 2: on ourselves and improve ourselves and our teams. Right, we

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Speaker 2: have limited amounts of energy and time and resources, so

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Speaker 2: that this really matters. And the place I like to

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Speaker 2: start is very few people outside of academics actually care

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Speaker 2: about emotional intelligence itself as an outcome. They want the

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Speaker 2: things that come from emotional intelligence. Ostensibly, they want better relationships.

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Speaker 2: They want more intimacy or trust in their relationships at

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Speaker 2: home or at work. Right, they want to they want

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Speaker 2: to be more resilient in the face of big, difficult

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Speaker 2: emotions they get super angry, they don't want to lose

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Speaker 2: it and get really defensive in a conversation, or they

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Speaker 2: don't want to get lost in spirals of worry and anxiety.

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Speaker 2: So I think this is where I usually start with

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Speaker 2: emotional intelligence, is most people what they want is emotional resilience.

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Speaker 2: We want to be able to experience big emotions because

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Speaker 2: that's inevitable. Like we're especially if we're doing ambitious, difficult things,

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Speaker 2: We're going to have difficult emotions like fear and anxiety

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Speaker 2: or anger or regret, all that kind of stuff. But

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Speaker 2: we don't want to get knocked over by it, right,

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Speaker 2: So I think, yeah, emotional resilience is kind of the

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Speaker 2: big overarching category. Emotional intelligence is an important component in that,

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Speaker 2: but it's not the only component. The other, really biggest

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Speaker 2: component is what I call emotional fitness, and those two

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Speaker 2: things together like that I think lead us to be resilience.

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Speaker 2: So emotional intelligence in my opinion. It's what you know

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Speaker 2: intellectually about your emotions and how to work with them

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Speaker 2: and work them well. So an example I always like

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Speaker 2: to give is like, worry is different than anxiety. A

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Speaker 2: worry is a type of thinking and it's something you

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Speaker 2: largely have control over. Anxiety is an emotion you can't.

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Speaker 2: There's no switch for like turning down anxiety. So if

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Speaker 2: you struggle with anxiety, the trick is actually to focus

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Speaker 2: on the habit that's perpetuating it, which is worry. But

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Speaker 2: a lot of people have never even heard of that distinction.

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Speaker 2: So that's an instance of understanding something about how our

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Speaker 2: emotions work. But if you think about it, in any

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Speaker 2: skill in life, whether it's you know, learning to play

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Speaker 2: the piano or running marathons or negotiating or whatever, any

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Speaker 2: kind of skill, insight or learning book learning is important,

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Speaker 2: but it's far far from sufficient. So if you wanted

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Speaker 2: to play the guitar, and you said, great, I read

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Speaker 2: this great book on guitar, but like, how come I

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Speaker 2: can't play the guitar anymore? Well, if you expect that

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Speaker 2: reading a book on guitar is going to make you

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Speaker 2: a good guitar player, like you're out to lunch. But weirdly,

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Speaker 2: when it comes to emotional health and resilience, we think, oh,

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Speaker 2: if I just heard this great idea, I was listening

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Speaker 2: to this podcast, or I read this great self help book,

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Speaker 2: that should be enough, Right, Not at all. That's the

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Speaker 2: very first step, most of the effect. If you really

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Speaker 2: want to be have kind of emotional strength and be

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Speaker 2: resilient in difficult situations, that's a muscle, right, and you've

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Speaker 2: got to exercise that muscle. You got to develop it,

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Speaker 2: you got to practice. That's the emotional fitness part. So

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Speaker 2: the reason I say emotional intelligence is overrated is to

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Speaker 2: kind of, you know, provoke people a little bit into

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Speaker 2: realizing you're putting all your time into trying to understand

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Speaker 2: stuff intellectually at the expense of actually practicing, putting in

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Speaker 2: the reps to do the work that's going to actually

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Speaker 2: lead to that resilience in the long.

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Speaker 4: I really like the term emotional fitness for a couple

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Speaker 4: of reasons. I often talk about stress fitness and talk

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Speaker 4: about the analogy with physical fitness, right, and I think

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Speaker 4: we can do the same with emotional fitness. Is that

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Speaker 4: there's a continuum, right, It's not just an on or

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Speaker 4: an off it is a continuum. There are low fit people,

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Speaker 4: there are medium fit people, and there are high fit people.

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Speaker 4: And then you ask anybody a massive audience, what is

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Speaker 4: the thing that distinguishes high fit physically fit people from

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Speaker 4: low physically fit people, And they will all tell you

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Speaker 4: it is that they do the work, and they do

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Speaker 4: the work consistently, right, And I think it's the same

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Speaker 4: with stress fitness. And what I'm hearing from you is

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Speaker 4: it's the same with emotional fitness.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 4: It's not just something that's a gift. Yes, there's a

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Speaker 4: little bit of genetics involved in all of this stuff, right,

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Speaker 4: but a lot of it is about doing the work.

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Speaker 4: And if you want to be high fit, you have

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Speaker 4: to constantly do the work. And if you stop at

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Speaker 4: any point doing the work, you're going to go down

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Speaker 4: and continuum, whereas if you just sit there and do nothing,

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Speaker 4: you're obviously going to be low fitness.

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Speaker 2: Really yeah, and you know, I think that's exactly right.

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Speaker 2: But I get a little frustrated with my own field

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Speaker 2: of clinical psychology and counseling and therapy because I think

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Speaker 2: we perpetuate this myth that like, well, you can just

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Speaker 2: come in and like talk about your stuff or like

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Speaker 2: read stuff and somehow proof magically that'll make everything better.

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Speaker 2: There's nothing wrong with therapy. Like I was a therapist

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Speaker 2: for a long time. I think I think it could

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Speaker 2: be really powerful. But it's just it's just the first step, right,

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Speaker 2: It's what are you doing in between your weekly sessions

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Speaker 2: every single day to get better, to get more resilient

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Speaker 2: at dealing with anxiety or you know, figuring out how

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Speaker 2: to understand and work through your tendency toward depression or

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Speaker 2: that's just that one hour in a day, one hour

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Speaker 2: week when you're talking to me. That's great, but that's

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Speaker 2: that's just the tip of the iceberg. Most of the

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Speaker 2: effects is going to happen in between. It's all those

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Speaker 2: practice sessions you are or aren't doing in the meantime.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, And and there are a lot of people, I

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Speaker 4: think who go to talk therapies just so that they

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Speaker 4: can unload and be heard, and then they walk out

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Speaker 4: and they do nothing, and they expect a different outcome.

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Speaker 4: I'm I'm not such a big fan of talk therapies

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Speaker 4: that that don't have an action associated with.

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Speaker 1: Them, you know.

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Speaker 4: And I'm I'm poking the bar a little bit when

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Speaker 4: it comes to psychology on.

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Speaker 1: This, what what's your what is your view on that?

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Speaker 4: You know, people, I think that that there's a little

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Speaker 4: bit of a risk that in Western psychology we have

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Speaker 4: become too much about may may may may me and

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Speaker 4: who's doing what to me?

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Speaker 1: And woe is me?

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Speaker 4: And that can be sometimes reinforced if there's no self

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Speaker 4: reflection and action, particularly what's your thoughts around.

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Speaker 2: I think it's a huge risk that almost nobody talks

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Speaker 2: about with psychotherapy or counseling, or coaching or or a

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Speaker 2: lot of these self development programs, is they can unintentionally

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Speaker 2: I don't think anyone is deliberately doing this, but they

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Speaker 2: can unintentionally reinforce patterns of dependence and sort of low agency.

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Speaker 2: So you go in in part because you know the

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Speaker 2: we we approach something like therapy like we approach medicine,

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Speaker 2: which is where right or wrong. I think there's a

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Speaker 2: good indication, not a very helpful way anything about physical

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Speaker 2: health either. But we think like something hurts, so I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna go and im and talk to doctor. They're gonna

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Speaker 2: figure out what's wrong. They're gonna be a bunch of tests.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what's happening they're just gonna like test me.

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Speaker 2: Then they're gonna give you, give me a pill, maybe

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Speaker 2: maybe put me under and do some surgery, and then

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Speaker 2: like poof, I'm gonna be better. And we expect that

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Speaker 2: the same thing that that's how you know emotional health

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Speaker 2: should work too. I'm depressed or I'm anxious, I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: go in some super smart therapist is going to like

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Speaker 2: analyze what's wrong, and then we're gonna talk about things

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Speaker 2: dot dot dot and then somehow everything's gonna be better

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Speaker 2: and it just does. And again, talking can be helpful, right,

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Speaker 2: and there are a lot of very smart, insightful therapists.

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Speaker 2: But if your model is that I'm just gonna go in,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to kind of vent or talk about things

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Speaker 2: and then I don't know, somehow like everything's gonna get better,

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Speaker 2: Like it's just it does it. I've never seen it

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Speaker 2: work that way. It always requires a substantial amount of work,

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Speaker 2: like not maybe not literally sweating sometimes sweating, but like

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Speaker 2: real work on the part of the person who wants

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Speaker 2: to grow and improve and get better. And it's just

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Speaker 2: we don't do people any favors reinforcing this model that

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Speaker 2: you can just come in and like chat for sixty

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Speaker 2: minutes every week and like then you'll get better.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, And I think that every not in every therapy session,

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Speaker 4: but every school should be teaching kids life is hard.

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Speaker 1: You know. Life is not easy.

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Speaker 4: It was never supposed to be easy. And anybody who's

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Speaker 4: told you that life is easy and you deserve to

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Speaker 4: be happy has sorry, but they've lied to you. Life

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Speaker 4: has always been hard and always will be hard, and

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Speaker 4: in different ways. And it's like when we try to

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Speaker 4: make life not hard, that's when I think we get

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Speaker 4: in when we get into trouble, when we try to

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Speaker 4: get rid of negative emotions and negative excs experiences and go,

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Speaker 4: this is uncomfortable, so I just want to get rid

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Speaker 4: of it. And I don't think that's the right answer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I used to see this and I

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Speaker 2: still see it so often. This this counterintuitive problem where

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Speaker 2: again I think it's because we have this medical model

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Speaker 2: where when we're suffering emotionally, we equate pain or suffering

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Speaker 2: with pathology, like that something's broken or wrong because I'm

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Speaker 2: in pain.

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Speaker 4: And we've been fed that though as well by largely

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Speaker 4: by the pharmaceutical industry, that you know, this is something

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Speaker 4: that can just be fixed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's all. I think there's a lot

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Speaker 2: to it, and I think there's a spectrum of nefariousness here.

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of medical providers and mental health

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Speaker 2: providers are against super well intentioned and trying to do

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Speaker 2: the right thing by their clients. But the idea, if

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Speaker 2: you think, if you really stop and think about it,

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Speaker 2: the idea that it that if I'm feeling anxious, there

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Speaker 2: is something wrong with me, something broken inside of me

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Speaker 2: that needs to be fixed. This is help you go

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Speaker 2: into a lot of therapy or self help books or

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Speaker 2: whatever it is. The problem is, even though it feels

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Speaker 2: like that, we all know that while pain is sometimes

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Speaker 2: an indicator of a problem something's wrong, it's very often

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Speaker 2: not that at all. In many cases, pain is a

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Speaker 2: sign of growth. When your muscle's hurt after a new workout,

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Speaker 2: that's literally because your muscles are growing, right, So I

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Speaker 2: think to assume that pain means something is literally broken

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Speaker 2: or wrong is really it's tempting, but it's so detrimental

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Speaker 2: because here's what happens. There's this process that's a little nerdy,

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Speaker 2: but I'll explain it because I think I think it

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Speaker 2: really matters. There's this process called emotional fear learning.

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Speaker 4: No.

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Speaker 2: Emotional fear learning is when there's a part of your

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Speaker 2: brain the amigdala, primarily which it's responsible for threats, for

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Speaker 2: tracking and helping you deal with threats. So if you're

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Speaker 2: walking around you see a bear jump out in front

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Speaker 2: of you, it's the thing that's going to shoot you

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Speaker 2: into fight or flight modes that you can run get

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Speaker 2: out of there. It's really helpful if you're encountering a

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Speaker 2: true threat to your something literally dangerous. But the wild

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Speaker 2: thing about the amignal is, depending on your behavior, you

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Speaker 2: can train it to believe that anything is dangerous. And

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Speaker 2: here's this idea of emotional fear learning. If in response

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Speaker 2: to a difficult emotion like anxiety or shame or sadness

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Speaker 2: or or fear or anything like this, if you immediately

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Speaker 2: either try to run away and avoid it or get

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Speaker 2: rid of it, that's teaching your brain that this thing,

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Speaker 2: your own emotions are dangerous, are threats, so that even

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Speaker 2: if you feel a little bit better in the short term,

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Speaker 2: you're gonna feel worse long term because the next time

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Speaker 2: that emotion comes up, you're not just gonna be anxious,

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Speaker 2: You're gonna be anxious about being anxious, and when your

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Speaker 2: emotions come pound like this, they get way bigger and

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Speaker 2: way harder to deal with. So so much well intentioned

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Speaker 2: mental health advice I think is actually completely counterproductive. Like

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Speaker 2: a great example of this is coping skills. You hear

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Speaker 2: about this all the time, like, oh, you need more

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Speaker 2: coping skills. You gotta like fill out your tool belt

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Speaker 2: of coping skills so that when you get anxious, you

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Speaker 2: just like whip out a little exercise and cope with

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Speaker 2: your anxiety. No, this is a terrible, terrible idea, because

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Speaker 2: even if you get a little bit of relief in

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Speaker 2: the short term by coping with your anxiety, what your

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Speaker 2: brain is learning is that anxiety is dangerous, it's bad.

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Speaker 2: You're essentially trying to get rid of it. So again,

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Speaker 2: you're going to be even more on the lookout. Your

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Speaker 2: brain's going to be even more sensitive to anxiety, and

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Speaker 2: you're going to feel anxious about being anxious increasingly. This

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Speaker 2: is where people get into real problems with their emotional health.

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Speaker 2: They get self critical about being sad. That's what leads

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Speaker 2: to depression, right or can anyway. They get anxious about

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Speaker 2: being anxious, that's what leads to panic attacks, but feeling sad,

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Speaker 2: feeling anxious, feeling angry, feeling feeling guilty. These are all

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Speaker 2: incredibly normal human experiences, which, however painful, aren't. They're natural,

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Speaker 2: they're normal, They're not a sign that something is wrong.

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Speaker 4: So sorry, it's no note. I love it and I'm

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Speaker 4: completely aligned with and in a couple of comments just

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Speaker 4: just on that. One is that we know that when

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Speaker 4: people are just like you described, what they can actually

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Speaker 4: do or what happens over time is there amigdala can

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Speaker 4: actually enlarge and become more sensitive. And we see that

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Speaker 4: with people who are either chronically stressed or or and

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Speaker 4: stress could.

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Speaker 1: Be real or imaginary.

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Speaker 4: Right, And as you say, when you get worried about

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Speaker 4: being worried the amygdala in functional MRI studies, when they

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Speaker 4: follow people, the amygdala grows bigger. That means they become

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Speaker 4: hyper vigilant, doesn't it.

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Speaker 1: So the brilling is.

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Speaker 4: Then non consciously scanning the environment for bad shit. And

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Speaker 4: you can find that these days you just need to

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Speaker 4: turn on the bloody news and then you linger on

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Speaker 4: that longer than other people, and then it compounds, which

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Speaker 4: is when we think about it is in a dative

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Speaker 4: response if you're a key of man being in a

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Speaker 4: dangerous warst right, but now it's maladaptive.

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Speaker 2: Right, yeah, it's it's But again, I think the key

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Speaker 2: idea here is that even in that case where you

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Speaker 2: have habitually trained your amigola to be hyper sensitive and

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Speaker 2: hypervigilant to things, it's your brain is still trying to

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Speaker 2: do the right thing. It's still trying to help you.

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Speaker 2: Your brain is always trying to help you. Yeah, but

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Speaker 2: if you treat it like an enemy, it's going to

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Speaker 2: increasingly start to feel like an enemy. That's the problem.

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Speaker 1: Like that.

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Speaker 2: It's so I think so many of us, unintentionally and

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Speaker 2: on the bad advice of supposed professionals, we get more

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Speaker 2: and more stuck and overwhelmed by difficult emotions because we're

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Speaker 2: constantly trying to either run away from them or get

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Speaker 2: rid of them cope with them, right, which unintentionally just

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Speaker 2: makes it harder and harder in the long run.

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Speaker 4: So, so, what is a more productive strategy then, for

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Speaker 4: if somebody is listening to this and going, oh, this

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Speaker 4: stage just nailed me either currently are are in the past,

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Speaker 4: But what is a more productive adaptive strategy? I mean,

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Speaker 4: we know with anxiety exposure therapy created exposure is one

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Speaker 4: of the key things, and it's it's the same as

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Speaker 4: the principle with exercise training. You know, you need to

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Speaker 4: progressively overload the system in order to stimulate adaptation. So

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Speaker 4: what would your advice be to someone who's kind of

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Speaker 4: stuck in that loop of wanting to get away from

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Speaker 4: their emotions or make them disappear or cope with them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, the first thing I would just say

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Speaker 2: is like, as unproductive as that can end up being

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Speaker 2: if you end up backing on it, as we've been

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Speaker 2: talking about it, it's very natural, So like, give yourself.

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Speaker 2: Don't immediately go to start criticizing yourself now because you're

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Speaker 2: doing this, it's very instinctive to want to avoid pain,

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Speaker 2: and just getting critical with yourself about that is not

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Speaker 2: gonna help. That's just gonna make things worse. So be careful.

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Speaker 2: That's the worst thing I'll say. Yeah, in gen I mean,

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Speaker 2: emotional resilience is a huge kind of topic. There's a

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Speaker 2: lot of ways we could go here. I'll share with

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Speaker 2: you one small but really powerful technique that I teach

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Speaker 2: people in my work, especially I I have a whole

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Speaker 2: course on emotional resilience called mood mastery, and the kind

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Speaker 2: of the cornerstone practice in that in that program is

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Speaker 2: something I'll call the AVA method. AVA like a v A.

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Speaker 2: It's a it's a memory device, but it stands for

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Speaker 2: these like three little simple steps that you can apply

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Speaker 2: in any emotionally difficult situation. These will be you can

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Speaker 2: guarantee these will be teaching your brain the right thing,

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Speaker 2: not the wrong thing. And so I'll walk you through

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Speaker 2: really quick. AVA stands for a acknowledge, So just very

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Speaker 2: briefly label how you're feeling. I'm feeling angry, I'm feeling sad,

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Speaker 2: I'm feeling you know, mad. And the key here though,

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Speaker 2: is don't intellectualize we adults. When was the last time

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Speaker 2: you hear an adult say I'm sad? It sounds childish, right,

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Speaker 2: It sounds like the kind of thing a six year

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Speaker 2: old would say. But the reason we do that is

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Speaker 2: it's a subtle avoidance strategy. Saying oh, I'm so overwhelmed

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Speaker 2: doesn't feel quite as bad as saying I feel really

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Speaker 2: sad right now, that's prickler. It's more emotionally evocative. So

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Speaker 2: we get in the habit of using vague overly intellectual

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Speaker 2: language to describe how we feel. Knock it off, Like,

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Speaker 2: that's the first step. Use very simple words. I tell

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Speaker 2: my students, say it like a six year old when

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Speaker 2: you're struggling, right, how would a little kid described this feeling.

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Speaker 2: So that's the first one. Just acknowledge your emotions. And

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Speaker 2: this is really fast. This is like five seconds. I

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Speaker 2: feel sad and a little bit frustrated right now.

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Speaker 1: And it's been shown neck.

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Speaker 4: I think to reduce the emotional intensity whenever you name

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Speaker 4: it right, name it to tamate. I've heard other people

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Speaker 4: talk about it does.

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Speaker 2: But this next step is like intensity reduction on steroids.

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Speaker 2: It's this is the one that really will help you

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Speaker 2: alleviate some of that intensity. The V stands for validate

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Speaker 2: and validate means once you've acknowledged, okay, I'm feeling anxious,

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Speaker 2: validate means it's valid It's okay to feel whatever I'm feeling.

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Speaker 2: Just because it feels bad doesn't mean it is bad

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Speaker 2: or that I'm bad for feeling. So I don't like

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Speaker 2: feeling anxious right. In fact, it's a pain in the ass.

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Speaker 2: I really wish I wasn't feeling anxious. But it's not

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Speaker 2: surprising that I'm feeling anxious given what just happened to me,

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Speaker 2: or it's not surprising that I'm angry given that what happened.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people would be angry in this situation.

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Speaker 2: It's valid, it's okay. It's what you would say if

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Speaker 2: a good friend came to you and they were really sad.

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Speaker 2: You'd say, I'm really sorry to hear that, like, you know,

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Speaker 2: I've been there before, and it's really tough, like I understand,

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Speaker 2: but it's okay, you know. So it's just being that

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Speaker 2: same level of supportive with yourself instead of being critical

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Speaker 2: with yourself. Oh I shouldn't feel this way, or what

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Speaker 2: do I need to do to make myself not feel

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Speaker 2: this way? No, you're going to validate it. It's valid.

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Speaker 2: You might not like it, it might be painful as hell, right,

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Speaker 2: but it's valid. It okay to feel that way. And again,

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Speaker 2: this step, you're not having a therapy session with yourself.

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Speaker 2: This is not sixty minutes or like journaling for half

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Speaker 2: an hour. This is ten seconds. You're saying, Okay, I'm

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Speaker 2: feeling really anxious right now. As much as I don't

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Speaker 2: like feeling anxious, it's okay that I'm feeling this way. Okay,

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Speaker 2: So that's that's step two, and then the third step,

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Speaker 2: arguably the most important step is the second a, which

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Speaker 2: is on your values. So many people, especially especially in

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Speaker 2: like modern therapy culture, we are a little bit too

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Speaker 2: obsessed with our emotions. Fifty years ago, we were probably

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Speaker 2: too avoidant with our emotions. We just didn't even talk

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Speaker 2: about emotions at all. Right, that's obviously not helpful. I

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Speaker 2: would argue we've swung a little too far to the

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Speaker 2: other extreme, where we've got kind of obsessive about our emotions.

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Speaker 2: We get stuck in them. We think, we overanalyze them,

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Speaker 2: we talk about them too much. I think a lot

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Speaker 2: of it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a great because.

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Speaker 2: And what's key is the reason that's problematic is to

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Speaker 2: your brain, it looks like like a fight response, like

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Speaker 2: you're trying to get rid of this thing, this emotion,

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Speaker 2: and that's just as unhelpful as the avoidant one. The

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Speaker 2: healthy middle ground is to acknowledging it, accept it, and

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Speaker 2: just let it be there. It's okay, I'm anxious. I

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Speaker 2: don't have to do anything about being anxious. My brain

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Speaker 2: is just trying to help me. Maybe it's a little

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Speaker 2: bit confused. It thinks there's something dangerous, when really there

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Speaker 2: is anything dangerous, but it's just trying to help me.

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Speaker 2: And I'm not going to stay stuck in this emotion.

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to keep ruminating about it or venting

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Speaker 2: about it to other people. I'm going to get on

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Speaker 2: with my life despite feeling this emotion. I'm going to

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Speaker 2: act on my values. What's meaningful or important to me

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Speaker 2: right now. I'm not going to act on the emotion.

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Speaker 2: This is not coping skills. I'm going to act on

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Speaker 2: my values. And when your brain sees that you are

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Speaker 2: willing to get on with your life despite feeling anxious

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Speaker 2: or sad or angry or whatever it is, it downregulates.

433
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,280
Speaker 2: It stops getting so emotionally worked up every time you

434
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 2: feel an emotion, and your level of emotional equanimity will

435
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,400
Speaker 2: just be It'll be so profound once you start doing

436
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:59,199
Speaker 2: this regularly. So that's the third step. Acknowledge, validate, and

437
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 2: then put on your values. Allow the emotion to be there,

438
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 2: and get on with your life. Refocus on that the

439
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 2: other person you're having a conversation with. Start writing that

440
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,399
Speaker 2: report you know you're nervous about writing. Go to the

441
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,679
Speaker 2: gym instead of overthinking about whether you should I shouldn't

442
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,120
Speaker 2: you know what to get on with things. So that's

443
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 2: my I said, it's going to be brief as usual,

444
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 2: like over talked a little bit on this, but eva

445
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 2: aba acknowledge, validate, and then move on, act on your values.

446
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,119
Speaker 2: Let the emotion just be there. So that to answer you.

447
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 2: That's a long winded way of answering your question all about.

448
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 4: Like, but it's a great it's a great answer, and

449
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 4: I particularly like I like all components of it, but

450
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 4: that it is directed towards acting and linking it to

451
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 4: values right, which is straight out of acceptance commitments that

452
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 4: are taking.

453
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,719
Speaker 1: It towards move rather than away, which is hugely important.

454
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 1: So you know, let's make it real.

455
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,199
Speaker 4: Let's just say I have anxiety and and you have

456
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 4: a birthday party coming up. But you know fortis birthday,

457
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,400
Speaker 4: whatever it may be, is a big birthday. You invite

458
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 4: me to the party. My brain all of a sudden

459
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:05,639
Speaker 4: is going no frequent way, no way can I go

460
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 4: to this party. You know, everybody's going to be looking

461
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 4: at me. What am I going to do with my hands?

462
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 4: People are going to be talking about me, what am

463
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,399
Speaker 4: I going to work? All this shit goes on, and

464
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,919
Speaker 4: then often people do avoidance behaviors, right, they don't go

465
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 4: to the party. They make up some bullshit excuse, Whereas

466
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:25,439
Speaker 4: what you're talking about is you acknowledge it, you validate it.

467
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 4: It's okay to freelanxis, and particularly because I've got a

468
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 4: bit of social anxiety. But actually a value of mine

469
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,439
Speaker 4: is friendship, and Nick is a very good friend of mine.

470
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 4: So I'm going to take my anxiety with me to

471
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,679
Speaker 4: the party in the service of something bigger. It's not

472
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 4: that you're getting rid of the anxiety, you take it

473
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 4: with you, right bing.

474
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 2: Oh, that's so right on, And I love that, like

475
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 2: bringing friendship in. You know, psychologically, why this isn't. One

476
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 2: of the reasons this is so important is that our

477
00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 2: values are a huge, largely untapped source of motivation that

478
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 2: we almost never think about. We all have values. There's

479
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 2: a reason you initially wanted to come to my birthday party, Paul,

480
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,159
Speaker 2: or whatever the whatever this year. You wanted to go

481
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 2: to the gym, you wanted to do that podcast, you

482
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,400
Speaker 2: wanted to write that book, you want to do whatever

483
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 2: it is. Tap into that value when you remind yourself

484
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 2: of that value and make it clear and kind of

485
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,439
Speaker 2: just spend a little time thinking about it. There's so

486
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 2: much motivation there to help you overcome that whatever difficult

487
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 2: emotion is getting in your way. Not that the emotion's bad,

488
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 2: it's just your brain giving you some advice and maybe

489
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 2: it's not especially helpful advice, so you're not obligated to

490
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 2: listen if you decide, you know what, Thanks brain, I

491
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 2: appreciate your input, but I've really decided it's important for

492
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 2: me to go to this, to go to this birthday party,

493
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 2: and so I'm going to do it anyway, right, So

494
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 2: I love your example there.

495
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,679
Speaker 4: And this value I actually want to really dive into

496
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 4: the value stylence. And you know, because I think and

497
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 4: I've been thinking about this a lot, and the kind

498
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:08,159
Speaker 4: of loss of religion in the West. Now I'm not

499
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 4: religious at all. I'm a recovering Catholic from Northern Ireland.

500
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 4: I've been in recovery for thirty years.

501
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 1: But I a lot.

502
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 4: This is not my original thinking. Lots of other people

503
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 4: will say this, that the breakdown of religion has has

504
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 4: had an issue, not because of the lack of religiosity

505
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 4: or whatever, but because.

506
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 1: You look at all religions is they give people values

507
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 1: to live by, and people.

508
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 4: Will then live by those shared values and they don't

509
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,640
Speaker 4: have to think about it too much, whereas not when

510
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 4: there's a lot less religion, people then have to think about.

511
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,400
Speaker 1: Their own values and what they actually are.

512
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 4: And when I run workshops, and I would imagine that

513
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 4: values come into your workshops when you're when you're doing

514
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,919
Speaker 4: stuff in corporates. When I'm talking about it, lots of

515
00:26:57,960 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 4: people are.

516
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,400
Speaker 1: Like, oh, even about what my values are?

517
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 2: Right, But they are.

518
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 1: A compassed by which you should be living your life.

519
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 4: Right, It's hugely important. And and just one other comment

520
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 4: of me before I throw back to you, and you know,

521
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 4: talking about values and habits and behaviors, and so for me,

522
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 4: I'm I'm arismx military. I've had an unhealthy relationship with

523
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:27,640
Speaker 4: alcohol for for for.

524
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: Many years, not not not not.

525
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 4: A ridiculous piss hit or an alcoholic, but just probably

526
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 4: drunk too much. And you know that whole culture of

527
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,479
Speaker 4: binge drinking. The one thing, and it was probably a

528
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 4: couple of years ago that I significantly reduced my alcohol

529
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 4: consumption and now I only drink once.

530
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 1: Or twice a week.

531
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 4: I'll still give it a nudge if I'm out with

532
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 4: friends and I'm no ee injel. But the one thing

533
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 4: for me was authenticity, which is a deeply held value

534
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 4: of mine. And as somebody who's a corporate speaker and

535
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,400
Speaker 4: talks about high performance, I'm not being authentic if I'm

536
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 4: coming home on a Tuesday night and drinking half a

537
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 4: bottler or bottle of wine, right, And so for me,

538
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 4: it was tapping into that authenticity.

539
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 1: And particularly when you're walking.

540
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,479
Speaker 4: Past the bottle shop or I don't know what you

541
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 4: guys call them in the States, but you're walking past

542
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,880
Speaker 4: it and your brain is getting seduced into it, right,

543
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:29,160
Speaker 4: that's when values become really important and going yeah, wow,

544
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,679
Speaker 4: I'd love to do that, but I wouldn't be being authentic.

545
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,439
Speaker 1: So I just want to throw that back to you.

546
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 1: That's discussion.

547
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 2: What I like, too, is like, especially when at the

548
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,959
Speaker 2: end that idea of I think people miss this they

549
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 2: think about values, is these things inside of you that

550
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 2: you I don't know. You take a test or you

551
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 2: listen to someone talk to you, and you kind of

552
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 2: like uncover your values and it's like, ooh, interesting, there

553
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 2: are values and that's great. If you haven't done that,

554
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 2: like that's good. Work to do is to start to

555
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 2: understand what your values are. But I think what where

556
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 2: they get really powerful is when you start deliberately using.

557
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 1: Right.

558
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 2: They're not just these abstract things. You should be using

559
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 2: them on a regular bringing them into your life in

560
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 2: difficult decisions, when you're trying to follow through on a

561
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 2: particular commitment, when you're in a difficult conversation with your

562
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 2: spouse or a person at work or whatever. It is

563
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 2: like what you Know? Simon Sinek wrote that great book

564
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 2: like What's Your Why you Know? And I think a

565
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 2: lot of ways values are about that. It's about just

566
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 2: this basic thing of reminding yourself there are bigger reasons

567
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 2: why I'm trying to do these difficult things in my life,

568
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 2: these important difficult things. And turns out if you just

569
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 2: get better at reminding yourself of those, you have so

570
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 2: much more motivation to follow through and do those things

571
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 2: that you aspire to do. So it's really low hanging

572
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 2: fruit that I think a lot of us are missing,

573
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 2: not just exploring our values but using them right, bringing

574
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 2: them into our lives.

575
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 4: One hundred percent got to become part of your behavioral DNA.

576
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: Right.

577
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 4: And this goes back and some of my listeners. Can

578
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 4: They'll be rolling their eyes here right because I'm going

579
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 4: to talk about the stoic philosophers again and arete you

580
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 4: know arite that that whole character was really all you

581
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 4: needed to be the good life And it was basically

582
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 4: acting with integrity and being true to your values or

583
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 4: your virtues as they called them in those days, and

584
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 4: that was really all that you needed. And it's actually

585
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 4: really powerful when you go into a situation and that

586
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 4: could end up in a heated argument, but you tap

587
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 4: into some of your values or your virtues and actually

588
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 4: take the higher grind and then reflect on it later

589
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 4: on and go, actually, that was good behavior, Well done

590
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 4: me nice.

591
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 2: I like that little reflection afterwards. It makes me think

592
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 2: I was just doing a little workshop on communication, like

593
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 2: people who are difficult communication scenarios. And we're talking about boundaries, right,

594
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 2: So there's a hot topic these days. Everyone wants to

595
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 2: know about like setting down yes. And I think boundaries

596
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 2: are important. But I think something people misunderstand about boundaries

597
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 2: is they think of them very negatively, like it's all

598
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 2: about saying no, and then someone violates your boundary and

599
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 2: you say no and you yes, yes, and that's part

600
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 2: of it. But I think what can be really powerful

601
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 2: people if you're trying to set, you know, a boundary,

602
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 2: maybe with a you know, a manager at work or

603
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 2: a relative or whatever it is, your kids, even it's

604
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 2: important to remind yourself maybe them too, that the reason

605
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 2: you're saying no is for a bigger yes behind it.

606
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 2: You're not just saying no to be difficult or to

607
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 2: be a pain in the ass, right, You're saying no

608
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 2: because there's something, There's some bigger important value on the

609
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 2: other side. Like why am I saying, you know, well,

610
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 2: my kid wants to play locks for you know, the

611
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 2: third hour in a row on Saturday, and I say no,

612
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 2: I'm going to go for a run. I'm not just

613
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 2: saying no because I you know, I don't like my

614
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 2: kid or something. I'm saying yes to self care, to

615
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 2: my health and to taking care of myself.

616
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

617
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 2: Right, So I'm not just being saying no to be mean, right,

618
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 2: I'm saying no because I'm trying to balance many values.

619
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 2: I won't quality time with my kids, but I also

620
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 2: really value my health, like I want to be around

621
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 2: for a long time with them. It's the same no

622
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 2: to some playtime on Saturday, so that I can say yes,

623
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 2: right to exercise because health is a really important value

624
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 2: for me.

625
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, very good point, Very good point. And let's not

626
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 4: let's move on to the next topic. That was a

627
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 4: rather deep little rabbitovey.

628
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 1: But that's co so link to all of this stuff.

629
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 4: It's kind of intertwined in it. But you have this

630
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 4: this concept that stress management is a bad idea, and

631
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 4: I think we're going to be following a familiar theme here, right, Yeah,

632
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 4: so this.

633
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 2: Is definitely a little poking the bear. It's not just provocative.

634
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 2: I think there's a deeper truth on your here. But

635
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 2: something I see in a lot of my work, whether

636
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 2: it was for years when I was doing therapy with

637
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 2: folks but now in more of my corporate work or

638
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 2: with my students, is managing your stress can often be

639
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 2: a distraction from doing more important. Now, what I mean

640
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 2: to this is, I think there's this important distinction between

641
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 2: stress and a stressor. Right, so if I'm out for

642
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 2: a height and again, like a bear jumps out in

643
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 2: front of me, the you know, me feeling tense and

644
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 2: my heart rate going up, and like that's a stress response.

645
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 2: Stress is what happens to your body physiologically, the stressor

646
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 2: is the bear, right, that's the thing triggering or generating

647
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 2: the stress in the first place. So it's really what

648
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 2: people end up doing, though I think is so problematic

649
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 2: is they forget about the stressor and all they're doing

650
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 2: is thinking about the stress anytime they get stressed. The

651
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 2: question isn't why am I getting stressed in the first place,

652
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 2: The question is how can I feel less stressed, which,

653
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 2: again very normal thing to want to feel like I

654
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 2: hate feeling stressed, Like I don't want to fel stressed when

655
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 2: I'm stressed. And I think there are times when literally

656
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 2: managing your stress, do some deep breathing exercises or go

657
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 2: for a run or like whatever it is, like, that's fine.

658
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 2: But what I don't like is where we get so

659
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 2: consumed with managing our stress that we don't focus at

660
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 2: all and do anything about the origins of that stress.

661
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,280
Speaker 2: And where I see this a lot is this usually

662
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:18,320
Speaker 2: takes the form of assertive communication. If you're chronically stressed,

663
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 2: nine times out of ten, it's because there's a difficult

664
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 2: conversation you need to have that you're avoiding. It might

665
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,240
Speaker 2: be with your spouse, it might be with your manager,

666
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 2: it might be with your kids, it might be with

667
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,879
Speaker 2: your parent, it might be their best friend, it might

668
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,359
Speaker 2: be with your barista at Starbucks. I don't know, right,

669
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 2: but so often the source of our chronic stress is

670
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,919
Speaker 2: an actual issue or problem out there that we need

671
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 2: to address, probably a conversation that we need to have,

672
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:49,800
Speaker 2: but because it's difficult and uncomfortable addressing the source.

673
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: We end up.

674
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 2: I like people do this explicitly, but because it's easier, right,

675
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 2: we fall back to, well, I'm just going to do

676
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 2: some deep breathing as sizes, or I'm gonna have a

677
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 2: glass of wine or whatever. I'm just going to try

678
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 2: and manage the stress itself. So any we can probably

679
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:08,879
Speaker 2: get into more of this. But that's what I don't

680
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:10,959
Speaker 2: like about the idea of stress management is that it's

681
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 2: often an avoidance mechanism for looking about these sources of

682
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 2: stress in the first place.

683
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 1: And I would build on this.

684
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 4: What I don't like about the term stress management is

685
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 4: the inference that all stress is bad and has to

686
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 4: be managed. Right, there's you know, there's de stress, and

687
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:36,720
Speaker 4: there's you stress, and you know anybody here's who's listening.

688
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 4: I want you to think about your biggest achievement in

689
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 4: your life, like the stuff that you are super super

690
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 4: proud of, And then did it involve stress and being

691
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 4: out of your comfort zone? And I guarantee you, for

692
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 4: ninety nine percent of people, the answer is a resignding yes.

693
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:54,439
Speaker 1: That is where we grow.

694
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 4: And I think we've we've created a society where this

695
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 4: whole idea that stress is bad and is making things

696
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,800
Speaker 4: worse for quite a lot of people, and that that

697
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 4: that your.

698
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 1: Attitude as well.

699
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 4: And this opens up the whole conversation around this, this

700
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 4: attitude around challenging threat that we know that if we

701
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,439
Speaker 4: are me and you are faced with the exact same

702
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 4: stressor if I view it as a threat, it I

703
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 4: start to become have all those negative emotions and avoidance behaviors.

704
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 4: But what it does physiologically that threat and psychology activates

705
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 4: cortisol and the major stress hormone, which.

706
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,359
Speaker 1: Has a half life of more than an r.

707
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 4: Whereas if you view the same thing as a challenge,

708
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 4: not only does that change your psychology and probably your

709
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:52,319
Speaker 4: behavior around it, but it changes your physiology because it

710
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 4: activates your fight or flight response and the chemicals adrenaline

711
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 4: and nord adrenaline, which you'll know is Epinefforn and nor

712
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 4: Epeneffor and right, and they have a half life of

713
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 4: less than a minute, so very quickly you're back to homeostasis,

714
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 4: whereas in our leader, I'm still in a hypervigilant state.

715
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,359
Speaker 4: There's cortisol going through my body, and we know that

716
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 4: chronic cortisol ravages your body in your brain, and a

717
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 4: lot of that comes from people's just their attitude around it.

718
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,959
Speaker 4: And that's one of the reasons why fundamentally I hate

719
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 4: the term stress management, and that you know, we need

720
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 4: to encourage people to have more of that challenge response.

721
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 4: But again, I'll just finish off with my rant, is

722
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 4: that a challenge response, like I can only really have

723
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 4: a challenge response if I believe that I have the

724
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,879
Speaker 4: resources to be able to deal with it. And that

725
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 4: actually comes back to having done hard stuff in a

726
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 4: lot of and a lot of things. I believe that

727
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 4: I can do this because I've done this before, Whereas

728
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,479
Speaker 4: if I have a history of avoidance behaviors, of course

729
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:05,439
Speaker 4: I've got no belief that I'm going to be able

730
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 4: to come this challenge, and then I'm gonna go into

731
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:09,439
Speaker 4: a threat response and avoidance behaviors and blah blah blah

732
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 4: blah blah.

733
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 1: Anyway, that's my runt. I'll throw that back over to you.

734
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 2: I love this because it reminds me of one of

735
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 2: my favorite ideas in all of psychology and really in

736
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 2: all of life, I think, but I think about it

737
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 2: in the context of psychology all the time, and that

738
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 2: is it's kind of a mouthful, but incrementalism, and incrementalism

739
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 2: is kind of a fancy term for this thing we

740
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 2: all basically know, which is if you want to get

741
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 2: better at something in life like, it basically requires slow,

742
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 2: steady progress. You do. You know, if you want to learn,

743
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 2: if you want to be a great piano player, you

744
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 2: don't just try and play Beethoven. It's not gonna work.

745
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 2: You're gonna suck and then you're gonna feel bad. And

746
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 2: it's like, that's not how you do it. What do

747
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 2: you do? You play Twinkle Twink a Little Star right

748
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:50,360
Speaker 2: until you get kind of good at Twinkle Twink a

749
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,320
Speaker 2: Little Star. Then you play chop sticks, then you play whatever,

750
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 2: and you slowly but surely incrementally, you work your way up,

751
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 2: building both competence, ability and skill, yes, and confidence. That's

752
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 2: where confidence come, everyone wants more confidence.

753
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 1: Like confidence comes from competence, right exactly.

754
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:11,720
Speaker 2: But I think a lot of people make this mistake,

755
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 2: especially with kind of personal growth, self improvement, psychological type topics. Again,

756
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 2: they think, oh, I read this great book about being

757
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 2: more assertive, so I'm going to go like barge into

758
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 2: my boss's office and like demand a fifty percent raise

759
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 2: or else I'm quitting or something, And then like that

760
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 2: doesn't go real, Well, that's because you haven't practiced being

761
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 2: more assertive in kind of a gradual way. Or you decide, Okay,

762
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:35,359
Speaker 2: I'm gonna do this big thing, and then you chicken

763
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 2: out every time. Why is it because you're not It's

764
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 2: not because you're a bad person. It's because you're trying

765
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 2: to play Beethoven when you haven't learned how to play

766
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 2: Twinkle Twinkle.

767
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: A Little Star.

768
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 2: So I think this applies to so many situations. Is

769
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,919
Speaker 2: that important to check ourselves and say, yes, we want

770
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 2: to get up here, right, but what are the steps

771
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 2: I need to take to get up there? Can I

772
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 2: design kind of a training program for this? I used

773
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 2: to all the time with my anxious clients, like, yeah,

774
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 2: you don't want to have panic attacks when you're driving anymore.

775
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 2: I get it. But what we're gonna start with is

776
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,720
Speaker 2: little tiny bits of anxiety, and you're gonna get better

777
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 2: at feeling the anxiety and being willing to have it

778
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 2: and to continue talking to me sitting in a nice

779
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 2: comfy office.

780
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

781
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:18,799
Speaker 2: Then once you're better at that, we're gonna go for

782
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 2: a walk around the block, right, or we're gonna go

783
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:22,759
Speaker 2: to the grocery store together, and you're gonna get a

784
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 2: little bit more anxiety, but you're gonna slowly build up

785
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 2: the skill so that you really believe it. It's not

786
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:31,879
Speaker 2: just me. You're like cheerleading therapist telling me you can

787
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 2: do it right. No, you have confidence because you have

788
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 2: shown yourself that you can do it. So I think

789
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 2: this is just so important. I think any good therapist

790
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 2: or coach who's worth their who's worth their wait and whatever.

791
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 2: I think we'll adhere to this on some level because

792
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 2: it's it's just the only way anyone grows in anything.

793
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:52,279
Speaker 2: I think.

794
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: So.

795
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 2: So we forgot about that at our at our peril.

796
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 4: And I think Nick buried within that message, I think

797
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:06,399
Speaker 4: is one of the best bits of parenting advice. If

798
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 4: you want to bring up well rounded children. Is they

799
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 4: get out of this bullshit idea that came out of

800
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 4: the States in the nineteen eighties of you should just

801
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 4: boost your kids' self esteem and tell them that they're

802
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 4: awesome and they're brilliant and they can be anything that

803
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 4: they want to be.

804
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 1: As you rightly said, and.

805
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 4: Any good sports psychologists will tell you this, that confidence

806
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 4: comes from competence.

807
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 1: What you just talked about.

808
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 4: So if you want your kids to grow up as

809
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 4: well rounded, confident individuals who are adept at stuff, is

810
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,319
Speaker 4: slowly build up their confidence by getting them to do

811
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:52,319
Speaker 4: incrementally hard stuff. Right, That's the thing, not telling them

812
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 4: they can be anything they want to be could because

813
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 4: there's a friggin' bell curve for a reason. Not everybody

814
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:01,760
Speaker 4: can be an astronaut. Right, Yeah, whatever, But I think that, God,

815
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 4: I think it's a poor message, right that. I think

816
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 4: the message we got to give to kids is you

817
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 4: can be the best that you can be, not you

818
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 4: can be anything you want to be, or that you

819
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 4: are amazing or so special, and you can be the

820
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 4: best that you can be if you put it in

821
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:17,479
Speaker 4: the work.

822
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I feel like I love you brought

823
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 2: that up. I was just talking to somebody about this.

824
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 2: I got the advice early on from a psychologist, actually

825
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 2: a good smart psychologist, who said, you cannot improve your

826
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 2: kids self esteem. Only they can improve their self esteem. Yes,

827
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,359
Speaker 2: and actually you trying to do it will only make

828
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 2: it harder from them, because it'll teach them that self

829
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 2: esteem comes from other people, from outside.

830
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: Yes, south validation from the way.

831
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 2: To you ever have good self esteem, to assume that

832
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 2: it's coming from others, You need permission from other people

833
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 2: to get self esteem. Right. So the idea is more

834
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 2: can and I think this. You know this applies to

835
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 2: little kids, I think, but also I think it applies

836
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 2: to ourselves, anyone who's out there listening and thinking, like

837
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:00,839
Speaker 2: I wish I had better selfish, which is something people

838
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 2: write into me all the time about asking about is

839
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 2: it's not a matter of like staring in the mirror

840
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 2: and telling yourself that you're great and you're wonderful. Yes,

841
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 2: that's like telling a kid, oh, you're the best, like

842
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 2: you can be whatever you want to be. This is

843
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 2: not It's well intentioned, but it's not going to do anything.

844
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 2: I think the smarter way to think about it is

845
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 2: how can I create the conditions such that I can

846
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:26,320
Speaker 2: build self esteem myself. And I think this idea of incrementalism,

847
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 2: setting small, meaningful goals for yourself and following through with

848
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 2: them regularly. I think that so that you can develop

849
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 2: that competence and confidence. That's where self esteem comes from.

850
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:42,239
Speaker 2: Self esteem is an output, it's an effect. It's not

851
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 2: an input. You don't do self esteem. It happens as

852
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:49,399
Speaker 2: a result of doing things that you can be proud of, right,

853
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 2: And I think building, But I think the key there

854
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 2: is that idea of if you're struggling with that, start smaller.

855
00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:00,839
Speaker 2: If you're struggling, do something smaller, so that you can

856
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 2: give yourself the chance to build up even a tiny

857
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 2: amount of competence and then the confidence that comes with it,

858
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 2: and then you can do a little bit more the

859
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:10,879
Speaker 2: next time. So I think it's a great little till.

860
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,720
Speaker 2: Like if you're running into problems like always get smaller.

861
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 2: What's the What's what's a smaller unit that I can

862
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 2: try to tackle so that I can build up that

863
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 2: that confidence and competence.

864
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 4: And I think that gets combinded today. The issue of

865
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 4: this is combinded today with social media and particularly especially

866
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:35,760
Speaker 4: teenager but not just teenagers and is everybody and looking

867
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:40,839
Speaker 4: on social media and the ridiculous amount of upwards comparison

868
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 4: that we have.

869
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:43,720
Speaker 1: You know, we see.

870
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 4: The best little herb brush snapshots of people's lives. We

871
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:50,800
Speaker 4: don't see all this shit that's going on, and often

872
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 4: we don't see reality.

873
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 1: And that's what's called an upwards comparison.

874
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 4: I'm comparing myself, which is what the human braind does,

875
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 4: especially teenagers. And when do you think of when we

876
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,719
Speaker 4: were kids, Like how many teenagers do we interact with?

877
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 4: There might have been one hundred in year class at school,

878
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 4: or or in your year level or stuff like that,

879
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 4: and we are constantly comparing ourselves. It's a natural thing

880
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:16,720
Speaker 4: to do. But now we get to compare ourselves to

881
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 4: tens of thousands of people who seemingly have these amazing

882
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 4: perfect lives, and that then kind of rule our self

883
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,919
Speaker 4: esteem further because we think I need to be like them,

884
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 4: and that that gap between where I currently am and

885
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 4: where I think I should be is just way too

886
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 4: big and often way too big to even get people started.

887
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 4: So I love your idea of incrementalism and start small

888
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,320
Speaker 4: and build yourself efficacy through effort.

889
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 2: Yeah that you know the three where I heard this.

890
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:49,359
Speaker 2: I heard this somewhere, but it was something like, if

891
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:51,799
Speaker 2: you must compare yourself to other people, compare yourself based

892
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 2: on inputs, not outputs. So I always think, you know,

893
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 2: Jocko has this thing and I don't really follow him,

894
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 2: but he's got this thing where he every morning he

895
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,319
Speaker 2: takes a photo of his watch at like you know,

896
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 2: four am or something of him like he's up and

897
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 2: he's going to the gym. So it's not photos of

898
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 2: him being jacked, right, it's photos of the input of

899
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 2: what his photos of him getting up at a godly

900
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 2: hour to go work out, which is something anyone can do.

901
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 2: I can't just be Jocko tomorrow, right, I can't just

902
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 2: look incredible, but I could get up early tomorrow and

903
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:26,840
Speaker 2: go work out. So I think it's a nice way to,

904
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:30,920
Speaker 2: you know, think about someone you admire maybe and something

905
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 2: you want if you do want to start exercising more,

906
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 2: you want to start writing more, or whatever it is.

907
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 2: I do think role models can be useful. But then

908
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 2: when you do that, look for the look for the inputs, right,

909
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 2: what are the things they're doing that are leading to

910
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 2: the outcome that you desire or that you want and

911
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 2: keep your focus on the inputs, not so much the outputs.

912
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,240
Speaker 2: I don't I find that like a nice little distinction.

913
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:59,479
Speaker 4: Man, that that is sports psychology one oh one, right,

914
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 4: But it's hugely important. I mean I I've been doing

915
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:08,320
Speaker 4: some mindset coaching for karate athletes and particularly the guys

916
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 4: who are wanting to get to the Olympics of the

917
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 4: World Championships and talking to them about process versus outcome.

918
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 4: So many light bulbs going off right that thinking about

919
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 4: when their performance was bad, what were they thinking about?

920
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,319
Speaker 4: And often it was about I'm in the final, I

921
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:29,840
Speaker 4: need to win this, right, or there's people watching me,

922
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 4: I need to win this, and they're focusing on the outcome,

923
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 4: not on the process, on the skills and behaviors that

924
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 4: they need to do. So it's exactly what you're talking about,

925
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 4: and all sports psychologists will say this is absolutely critical.

926
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 4: Process beats outcome. Every single day of the week. You

927
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,840
Speaker 4: focus on the process and then the outcome will come

928
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 4: or may or may not come. But it's about the

929
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 4: process that's the key thing. So that's your inputs think

930
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 4: right and completely endorsement.

931
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:00,840
Speaker 2: And it's you know, it's the emotional fitness thing. You know.

932
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:03,919
Speaker 2: So in my world of emotional health and resilience, it's

933
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:07,439
Speaker 2: if you want to be less anxious, anxiety is the outcome, Like, yeah,

934
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 2: you want to be less anxious, like we all want

935
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 2: to be less anxious. I think for the most part,

936
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 2: the more important question to ask, though, is what are

937
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:16,880
Speaker 2: the inputs to my anxiety and what can I do

938
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 2: differently there? So, when do I find myself worrying a lot,

939
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 2: getting lost in worries? And how could I handle that better?

940
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:26,839
Speaker 2: What could I do differently when I start to when

941
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:30,720
Speaker 2: I start to worry right, or anger if I'm really angry,

942
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 2: and like I personally am am a very impatient person.

943
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 2: So I'm trying to like work, I'm not losing my

944
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,400
Speaker 2: temper with my kids as much, being a little more relaxed.

945
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 2: But I've been trying to think about don't worry about

946
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 2: the anger. What are the inputs in particular, what are

947
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 2: my expectations when I'm sitting down to dinner and I

948
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 2: start getting frustrated with my kids, because often that's what

949
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 2: I have control over, right, That's what I can actually

950
00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 2: those are the levers I can pull and adjust, right,

951
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 2: and if I can stay focused on those, I will

952
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 2: then try to trust that the outcome will take care

953
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 2: of itself. Right. So, I think even we're talking about

954
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 2: sports psychology and you know, lifting weights, all that kind

955
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 2: of stuff, but I think it applies to any type

956
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 2: of goal, even these kind of emotional goals that we have,

957
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 2: is to stop focusing so much on the emotion and

958
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:22,440
Speaker 2: ask yourself, what are the inputs to that emotion that

959
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 2: I have some control over?

960
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it.

961
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:28,279
Speaker 4: And and then if you can kneel the not being

962
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 4: so angry with your kids, we'll get you back on

963
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:33,319
Speaker 4: the podcast because that will be an absolute blockbuster.

964
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 2: It might be a little laugh if I'm being honest,

965
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:38,920
Speaker 2: and you and.

966
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 1: Me both, So let's let's let's let's let's let's.

967
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:47,640
Speaker 4: Let's take at different chat here, and you talk about

968
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 4: and why we should stop thinking about insomnia as a

969
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:56,879
Speaker 4: sleep problem. That's an interesting twist, so so talk us.

970
00:49:56,840 --> 00:49:58,799
Speaker 2: Through that, because bears getting really tired of being poked.

971
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 2: Ba I used to get in arguments like fights with

972
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 2: people at conference psychology conferences because I'd sort of poked

973
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 2: the bear there and claim that you know, insombia is

974
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 2: obviously classified as a sleep disorder, right, but you talk

975
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:14,399
Speaker 2: to anyone who actually studies sleep, and they will. There

976
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 2: is nothing physically wrong with people who have insomnia. There's

977
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 2: nothing wrong with your brain, there's no pathology involved. And

978
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 2: in fact, people with insomnia, this is a little known statistic.

979
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:31,760
Speaker 2: People withinsomnia on average don't sleep any less than people

980
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 2: without insomnia.

981
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 1: Oh really, They just spend more time in bed.

982
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,840
Speaker 2: Spend way more time in bed, and they spend a

983
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 2: ton of time thinking worrying about sleep or not getting sleep,

984
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:48,200
Speaker 2: anxious about sleep. So my kind of hot take on

985
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 2: insomnia is that if you if you think about insomnia descriptively,

986
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:55,759
Speaker 2: what it looks like. Sure, it looks like a sleep disorder, right,

987
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 2: because it's about sleep. But if you look at it mechanistically,

988
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 2: which is how any sophisticated field in medicine, it defines

989
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 2: its disorders by mechanics, how it looks superficially. Right. So

990
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:10,880
Speaker 2: like when you have a heart attack, right, that's defined

991
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:14,200
Speaker 2: by you know, what's going on inside your body when

992
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 2: you're having a heart it's not defined by like the

993
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:17,879
Speaker 2: fact that you have chest tightness. It's not a chest

994
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 2: tightness attack, right, Yes, what is with insomnia? What causes insomnia?

995
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:29,759
Speaker 2: The underlying mechanism is anxiety. It's an anxiety issue. You

996
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:34,279
Speaker 2: are trying much too hard to sleep, and because you're

997
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 2: trying too hard to sleep, you're teaching your brain that

998
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 2: all sorts of things around sleep and bed are dangerous,

999
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 2: and so you're you go into a state of kind

1000
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 2: of hypervigilance, chronic worry, anxiety, which is fundamentally incompatible with

1001
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 2: rest and relaxation and sleep, which is why people struggle

1002
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:57,040
Speaker 2: so much with sleep. That insomnia is literally it's a

1003
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:00,400
Speaker 2: struggle with sleep. It's the lack of sleep. And so

1004
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 2: I have found Gotcha by far the most helpful way

1005
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:05,680
Speaker 2: to get people out of in Zombia. And you can

1006
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 2: literally cure in Zombia quickly, like really quickly. But what

1007
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:13,920
Speaker 2: it requires is this fundamental shift and you have to

1008
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 2: stop thinking about as a sleep problem, and really it's

1009
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:20,880
Speaker 2: an effort problem. You're trying too hard to do something

1010
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:24,959
Speaker 2: that only happens when you relax. Yeah.

1011
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, because if you if you are up tight, you're

1012
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:33,520
Speaker 4: in sympathetic nervous system and you're in high beta wave

1013
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:36,239
Speaker 4: and it is impossible to sleep if you're being as

1014
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 4: in beta waves. It has to go through alpha wave

1015
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:43,280
Speaker 4: to theta to fall asleep today and deep sleep is delta.

1016
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 1: Right, So if you are.

1017
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 4: Stimularly overaraged, and you know that that's what us physiologists

1018
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 4: a psychologists'll talk about it. It's not that sort of

1019
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 4: arrisal in bad but but if you are overaraged from

1020
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 4: a nervous system perspective, good luck getting the sleep.

1021
00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not gonna happen.

1022
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:01,840
Speaker 1: You got no chucks shut.

1023
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 2: And it's interesting all these people who struggle in somnia.

1024
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:06,759
Speaker 2: They've got checklists, dozens of things they have to do

1025
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 2: every night before bed. They've got their blackout curtains and

1026
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:11,479
Speaker 2: they had no blue light, and there's all their weird

1027
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 2: supplements and like all this stuff, right, which really is

1028
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:17,320
Speaker 2: just a form of what I call sleep effort. You're

1029
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 2: trying hard to do something. And if you look at

1030
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:23,799
Speaker 2: all the best sleepers in the world, they're not the

1031
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 2: ones with huge checklists and like meticulous routines around sleep.

1032
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:29,319
Speaker 2: The best sleepers break the rules all the time and

1033
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:33,200
Speaker 2: sleep like babies. You don't need. You don't need all

1034
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:35,720
Speaker 2: of the tips and tricks and the funky gadgets, And

1035
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 2: in fact they often get in the way. And so

1036
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 2: there's we probably all the time to get into like

1037
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 2: the whole thing, but I will sort of leave it

1038
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:46,400
Speaker 2: as a like on the mindset level, if you're thinking

1039
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 2: of sleep as this big problem you have to prepare

1040
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:53,120
Speaker 2: for and solve, is it really surprising that your brain

1041
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 2: starts thinking of sleep as a problem and then you

1042
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:58,840
Speaker 2: shockingly have a hard time actually relaxing and falling asleep.

1043
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:04,800
Speaker 1: Hmmm, yeah. Interesting. There was a guy in university I

1044
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 1: think it was South Australia.

1045
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:09,719
Speaker 4: It was one of the local universities who created this

1046
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 4: program around insmodi. So we created this ring and what

1047
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:16,879
Speaker 4: happened and I actually got a ring. I was part

1048
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:19,360
Speaker 4: of the study, just out of interesting. I don't have

1049
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 4: an insomni issue. But the ring would go on and

1050
00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 4: it would vibrate every fifteen minutes.

1051
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 1: And you actually, I had to get out of bed.

1052
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:31,440
Speaker 1: You had to physically. So there's people insomnia.

1053
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 4: They had to get out of bed and they had

1054
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 4: to go and sit in another room until they felt

1055
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:38,840
Speaker 4: tired again, and then they got into bed and they

1056
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:41,040
Speaker 4: had to reset it and then it buzzed again after

1057
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:42,919
Speaker 4: fifteen minutes and they had to get out of bed

1058
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:45,000
Speaker 4: right And so they did.

1059
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 1: This for.

1060
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:51,400
Speaker 4: Two nights and created massive amounts of sleep pressure and

1061
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:53,880
Speaker 4: sleep debt and then all of a sudden bomb they

1062
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:58,920
Speaker 4: fell asleep. Right, So just manipulation of the physiology and

1063
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 4: then all the worry and away when I am so

1064
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 4: friggin tired, If she take an insomniac and don't let

1065
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:08,280
Speaker 4: them sleep for two days, they will fall asleep pretty quickly.

1066
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:11,319
Speaker 2: I don't know why it's such a secret, but there's

1067
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:14,239
Speaker 2: an approach, and I think it comes out of that

1068
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 2: approach of describing comes out of this. But there's an

1069
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:18,960
Speaker 2: approach called cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia.

1070
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:20,000
Speaker 1: Which is YIBTI.

1071
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:23,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is the gold standard. It works and I

1072
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:27,200
Speaker 2: I've worked with hundreds of people with insomnia. I have

1073
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:33,040
Speaker 2: never seen it not work when applied. It's curative. It

1074
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:36,759
Speaker 2: literally gets rid of inzomnia, and it's so powerful and

1075
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:39,800
Speaker 2: nobody knows about it. Everyone's like stuck on sleeping pills

1076
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:42,400
Speaker 2: and all sorts of goofy sleep hygiene routines and stuff.

1077
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:46,799
Speaker 2: And there's this approach which is really straightforward that is

1078
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 2: just phenomenally effective, So people are really interested kind of

1079
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:53,360
Speaker 2: behavioral therapy for insomnia. It's this really robust protocol for

1080
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:55,960
Speaker 2: dealing with insomnia. Is super powerful.

1081
00:55:55,600 --> 00:56:00,200
Speaker 4: I've fully endorsed that. And sleeping tablets are not the

1082
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:02,680
Speaker 4: answer you're that. They don't make you sleep, they put

1083
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 4: you unconscious. The brain wave patterns are completely different, changes

1084
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:07,440
Speaker 4: your brain chemistry over time.

1085
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 1: Just a not good ship.

1086
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 4: And last one just because I have to run, but

1087
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:16,959
Speaker 4: I really want to talk about this one. You talk

1088
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:23,120
Speaker 4: about a daily scheduled worry practice being better than drugs

1089
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 4: or therapy for chronic anxiety, and I.

1090
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:27,960
Speaker 1: Think I know where you're going here, but yeah, talk

1091
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:30,040
Speaker 1: us through this. I think this is genius.

1092
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:32,480
Speaker 2: It's my favorite. I think it's my favorite practice in

1093
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:35,759
Speaker 2: all of emotional health. It's so it's so cool, it's

1094
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:39,320
Speaker 2: so simple, and it's so powerful. It is the number

1095
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 2: one thing I do that I recommend for anyone with

1096
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:44,359
Speaker 2: any kind of chronic anxiety. And all it is, it's

1097
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:48,279
Speaker 2: incredibly simple. All it is is you find ten to

1098
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 2: fifteen minutes a day and you make time to worry

1099
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:55,359
Speaker 2: on purpose. And so what you do is you set

1100
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 2: a little timer for like ten minutes. Then you get

1101
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:00,120
Speaker 2: out your little just a little pad of paper, and

1102
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:02,440
Speaker 2: you just write down anything and everything you can think

1103
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:04,479
Speaker 2: of that you're worried about. It could be tiny, little

1104
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:06,440
Speaker 2: minor things like I forgot to get bananas at the

1105
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 2: grocery store. It could be nuclear war, you know it could,

1106
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:11,640
Speaker 2: and everything in between. Anything you're worried about, you just

1107
00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:15,319
Speaker 2: barf it all down onto the page. Now you're not

1108
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 2: solving anything. You're not analyzing it, you're not creating to

1109
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:20,360
Speaker 2: do lists. You're just getting it in your brain and

1110
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 2: putting it onto paper. After your ten minutes is up,

1111
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:26,200
Speaker 2: crinkle the paper up, throw it away. Do the same

1112
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:30,720
Speaker 2: thing the next day. It sounds crazy. I have never

1113
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:34,200
Speaker 2: found anything as powerful as this for dealing with chronic anxiety,

1114
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:35,920
Speaker 2: and I don't tend to get into it. But the

1115
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 2: basic mechanism is that it's essentially exposure therapy for chronic worry.

1116
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:47,640
Speaker 2: You are forcing yourself to deliberately approach your worries instead

1117
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:49,480
Speaker 2: of what we always do, which is run away from

1118
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:51,680
Speaker 2: them or try to suppress them or distract ourselves from them,

1119
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:54,440
Speaker 2: which only makes them more intense, which leads to more anxiety.

1120
00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:56,480
Speaker 2: But when you get in the habit, and this is

1121
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:58,280
Speaker 2: the thing, this is not a coping mechanism. You don't

1122
00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:00,920
Speaker 2: do it when you're anxious. It's an exercise. Like just

1123
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:02,600
Speaker 2: like you go for a run every day, you like,

1124
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:05,880
Speaker 2: do your scheduled worry every day, and over time this

1125
00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 2: trains your brain to have a healthier relationship with worry

1126
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 2: and anxiety. So the overall it desensitizes your brain to

1127
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:16,959
Speaker 2: worried anxiety. And people who have chronic worry, they're they're

1128
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 2: highly sensitized to worry and anxiety. So you do this

1129
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:24,560
Speaker 2: regularly and your overall level of chronic worry is dramatically

1130
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:26,920
Speaker 2: going to decrease, and along with it your level of

1131
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:29,600
Speaker 2: chronic anxiety. So it's very simple. I just described it.

1132
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:32,960
Speaker 2: You anyone can do it. I actually maintain a little

1133
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:35,280
Speaker 2: like my website just for it. It's called Scheduled Worry

1134
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:37,840
Speaker 2: dot com. And there's a little like package so people

1135
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:39,520
Speaker 2: can download like little PDAF that shows you how to

1136
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:43,040
Speaker 2: do it. But it is so powerful, like it's the

1137
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:45,440
Speaker 2: best if anyone's interested in this, like shoot medium, I

1138
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:47,400
Speaker 2: love as you can tell, Like, I just get so

1139
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:50,240
Speaker 2: stoked talking about it because it's it's really powerful and

1140
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 2: almost no one knows it about it, and it's it's cheap,

1141
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:56,640
Speaker 2: it's easy, it's free. You're not like eating weird things

1142
00:58:56,680 --> 00:59:00,200
Speaker 2: and like ingesting strange shampicles like. It's just very it's

1143
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:02,920
Speaker 2: very straightforward and awesome and I highly.

1144
00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:05,320
Speaker 1: Recommend very very cool.

1145
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:09,680
Speaker 4: Can I suggest a tweak, Yeah, it's rather than get

1146
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:11,520
Speaker 4: a piece of paper that you throw away, it's have

1147
00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 4: a journal and write it down and just keep it

1148
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:18,280
Speaker 4: and then six months later come back and go through

1149
00:59:18,320 --> 00:59:21,520
Speaker 4: it line by line to see what came true and

1150
00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 4: what didn't. Because there was a paper released that you've

1151
00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:27,240
Speaker 4: probably seen, this paper around generalized anxiety disorder. They took

1152
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:29,320
Speaker 4: a bunch of people, I think the name of the

1153
00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:31,760
Speaker 4: paper's worries that don't come true. They got them to

1154
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:35,200
Speaker 4: write down all of their worries, and then they had

1155
00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:37,800
Speaker 4: to come back as a bunch of time leader. I

1156
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:40,240
Speaker 4: can't remember when it was hard much later go.

1157
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:42,480
Speaker 1: Through line by line and work out what came true.

1158
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:46,200
Speaker 4: Ninety one percent of the shit that people worried about

1159
00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:47,360
Speaker 4: never came true.

1160
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:51,120
Speaker 2: Nice. There's all sorts of really cool variants like that

1161
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:52,919
Speaker 2: that you can do off schedule. You can get really

1162
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:54,800
Speaker 2: like sophisticated with it. That's a good one, though I

1163
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:56,560
Speaker 2: didn't know it was that high. I mean, that's that's

1164
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:56,919
Speaker 2: I mean.

1165
00:59:57,680 --> 00:59:59,880
Speaker 1: It's bunkers. I'll flick you the paper.

1166
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:03,800
Speaker 4: These just bonkers and when people go, oh Jesus right.

1167
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:04,600
Speaker 1: But I love you.

1168
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:08,600
Speaker 4: I love that scheduled worry stuff. In fact, I've loved

1169
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:10,720
Speaker 4: everything you've talked about. And there's a whole heap of

1170
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:13,280
Speaker 4: stuff I'd love to talk about, but we will because

1171
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:16,960
Speaker 4: I have to run for an appointment, and so mere

1172
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:19,680
Speaker 4: can people go to find most of their schedule worry

1173
01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:20,920
Speaker 4: dot com for the warriors.

1174
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 1: But you have, you've got a pretty awesome news letter.

1175
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:27,600
Speaker 4: Tell us about that and more people can can follow

1176
01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:28,360
Speaker 4: you and find out more.

1177
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:31,080
Speaker 2: Sure, I have a newsletter called The Friendly Mind. It's free.

1178
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:32,720
Speaker 2: It goes ou every week every Monday morning. I've been

1179
01:00:32,720 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 2: doing it for seven years now. It's basically an advice

1180
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:38,640
Speaker 2: column for emotional health, so readers write in with questions

1181
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:42,120
Speaker 2: about anxiety or stress or anger or you know, depression

1182
01:00:42,200 --> 01:00:45,400
Speaker 2: or whatever it is. I just answer reader questions about

1183
01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:48,400
Speaker 2: bioty things. It's it's really straightforward, practical, kind of no

1184
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:52,480
Speaker 2: nonsense and friendly. So it's free. You can sign up

1185
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:54,160
Speaker 2: check it out see if you like it or not.

1186
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:57,240
Speaker 2: The Friendlymind dot com. And yeah, I would love to

1187
01:00:57,240 --> 01:00:59,520
Speaker 2: see you on there. Thanks, Paul. I really appreciate you

1188
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:00,560
Speaker 2: having me that stuff.

1189
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:03,880
Speaker 4: Yep, mate, great to have you on, I love the conversation.

1190
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:06,040
Speaker 1: Keep doing your ship, keep poking the bar

1191
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:16,360
Speaker 2: H