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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Today's guest Professor Roger Bayard is a forensic pathologist. One

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Speaker 1: of the many cases he was involved in was examining

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Speaker 1: the remains of eleven murdered victims, eight of which were

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Speaker 1: stilled in barrels in the South Australian Snowtown murders case.

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Speaker 1: He has seen more death than anyone should, but still

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Speaker 1: manages to have what I found to be a practical

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Speaker 1: and compassionate view about life. And death. He has conducted

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Speaker 1: thousands of posts, more than examinations examining the remains of

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Speaker 1: people who have died of unnatural causes, been murdered, victims

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Speaker 1: of terrorist attacks, natural disasters, or even killed by animals.

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Speaker 1: We spoke about his career spanning more than forty years,

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Speaker 1: including some of the truly bizarre cases that he has

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Speaker 1: seen and the work that he does to prevent death.

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Speaker 1: It's probably appropriate to give a content warning up front.

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Speaker 1: What we talk about here is quite confronting. Roger. You

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Speaker 1: are the pathologists on the Snowtown murders. That's one of

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Speaker 1: Australia's most horrific cases. We'll talk more about that later,

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Speaker 1: but first help me understand what is the role of

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Speaker 1: a forensic pathologist.

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Speaker 2: Well, as you know, it's variable. Sometimes it's really critical,

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Speaker 2: other times it's not. If somebody is shot on the

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Speaker 2: head in front of thirty witnesses, you don't need a

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Speaker 2: forensic pathologist to tell you what's happened. But other times

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Speaker 2: we act as a team, so we're working together. So

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Speaker 2: the police have worked the scene and we have a

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Speaker 2: body and they want to know what's a likely cause

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Speaker 2: of death? What do I think has happened, what are

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Speaker 2: non possibilities, so it guides them so they're looking for

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Speaker 2: a samurai saw, not a pistol sort of thing. Time

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Speaker 2: of death is always a very difficult issue, and we're

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Speaker 2: often called in the past for that, but that's become

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Speaker 2: I think we've become more aware that it's not as

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Speaker 2: accurate as we used to think it was. You know,

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Speaker 2: we had those incredibly interesting scientific charts and you'd plot

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Speaker 2: this and that and they died at two minutes past

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Speaker 2: midnight and as I say, poss and minus a week.

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Speaker 1: But from a to take this point of view, crucial

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Speaker 1: to an investigation if you can get the time of

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Speaker 1: time death for when the incident occurred.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, if they're warm, the body temperatures of

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Speaker 2: thirty seven degrees, that means has happened very recently, which

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Speaker 2: means that the perpetrator may be in the area. If

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Speaker 2: you can give them a time frame, then it cuts

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Speaker 2: down on the number of people that may be evolved.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's the importance of it as well.

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Speaker 2: You know, the police come to the autopsy as well,

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Speaker 2: so that we can chat about stuff and work our

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Speaker 2: way through. People have said we should record all of

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Speaker 2: our conversations. Well, I disagree with that because it's a

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Speaker 2: work in progress. You know, we're coming up with all

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Speaker 2: sorts of theories, and we're bouncing off each other and

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Speaker 2: using each other's experience saying no, I don't think that's

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Speaker 2: likely all.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I think that's possible, and that's appropriate from a

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Speaker 1: policing point of view. If we've got well, this person

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Speaker 1: was last sight that we know for a fact that

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Speaker 1: this person was at the shopping center at nine am

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Speaker 1: in the morning, that type of information could be helpful

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Speaker 1: for you.

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Speaker 2: Yes, indeed, But strange things happened. I remember I went

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Speaker 2: to a stabbing and those have been stabbed multiple times.

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Speaker 2: But he had drops of blood on his back. So

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Speaker 2: I was very excited by this. I said, look, I

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Speaker 2: mean the only way he could get that is if

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Speaker 2: it had dropped from a height. Must be the perpetrator blood.

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Speaker 2: So I worked up for about forty five minutes, and

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Speaker 2: then one of the crime scene cops came in and said,

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Speaker 2: I'll actually passed the bloody T shirt over the back

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Speaker 2: of the body. But the usefulness of that is getting

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Speaker 2: information from each other so we don't make mistakes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, have you got any case, Well, you've done over

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Speaker 1: six thousand posts more than so when I say have

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Speaker 1: you got any cases, I assume that there's a lot

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Speaker 1: in that memory of yours, ones that your initial thoughts

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Speaker 1: on it changed to be completely different to what the

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Speaker 1: final analysis was. Well.

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Speaker 2: I think probably one of the most recent ones was

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Speaker 2: Jasmine Korr, a young Punjabi woman who was buried alive

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Speaker 2: by her ex boyfriend. He had a story that they

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Speaker 2: had a suicide packed and she had cuts on the

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Speaker 2: side of her neck. So the initial assumption was that

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Speaker 2: he'd cut her neck and then buried the body. But

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Speaker 2: the cuts are very superficial and so the assessment of

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Speaker 2: the crime scene was inaccurate. It wasn't cuts. She had

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Speaker 2: actually inhaled soil. She'd be buried alive. So that was

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Speaker 2: completely different from what we originally thought and horrific.

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Speaker 1: Of course, Yeah, I want to talk further about that

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Speaker 1: case because that is quite quite horrific. And in your

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Speaker 1: role as a forensic pathologist, did you go out to

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Speaker 1: the crime scenes or it was on a need basis

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Speaker 1: When you attended the crime scenes, you do.

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Speaker 2: When you don't, For example, Snowtown, which we're going to

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Speaker 2: talk about, I didn't go to the crime scene there

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Speaker 2: because that was a bank fault for me. The crime

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Speaker 2: scene was in the barrels, and so we'll talk about that,

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Speaker 2: how the evidence was inside the barrel So he brought

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Speaker 2: those down to Adelaide with Jasmine. I went to the

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Speaker 2: crime scene and assisted with the exhumation, just to see

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Speaker 2: the process. Also to be able to tell the court, yes,

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Speaker 2: I was there, I saw these injuries or not, because

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Speaker 2: if you're not at the crime scene sometimes it can

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Speaker 2: be put you. Well, clearly these injuries occurred post mortem

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Speaker 2: when the body was being moved. But if I could say, no,

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Speaker 2: I was there and this is what I saw, and

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Speaker 2: I document what I saw.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And the crime scenes can be misleading. I recall

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Speaker 1: one where I've turned up the crime scene, called out

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Speaker 1: to it on a Friday afternoon. Going to the crime scene.

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Speaker 1: There's a person naked with a cord wrapped around their

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Speaker 1: neck and blood all over the walls, with finger marks

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Speaker 1: and all that looked like there'd been a violent struggle.

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Speaker 1: We set that up as a murder investigation that was

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Speaker 1: running for twelve hours until we could get the forensic

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Speaker 1: pathologist to examine the situation. This person had a ruptured

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Speaker 1: a orta really and was making a phone call. The

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Speaker 1: called around his neck was a cord to the telephone

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Speaker 1: and was writhing around in agony with a ruptured a order,

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Speaker 1: coughing up blood and the blood was hitting the wall.

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Speaker 1: So that taught me, and that was very early in

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Speaker 1: my career, the importance of getting the opinion of a

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Speaker 1: forensic pathologist because we'd still be looking for the murderer

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Speaker 1: on that case. What led you to this.

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Speaker 2: Field, basically laziness.

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Speaker 1: I liked your on the sensors.

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Speaker 2: I was going back to Canada. I trained in Tasmania,

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Speaker 2: and I've been going to Canada and I've done family

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Speaker 2: practice training there. But I was going back to emergency

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Speaker 2: medicine and I was in Belize and having great time snorkling,

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Speaker 2: and spent so much time snorkling. By the time I

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Speaker 2: got back to Canada, all the emergency jobs were taken,

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Speaker 2: so all I had left was pathology.

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Speaker 1: And you didn't get a career as a snoggl.

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Speaker 2: No, So then I went from general pathology to pediatric

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Speaker 2: pathology to forensic pathology. So it's fascinating. I mean, it

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Speaker 2: covers so many areas of medicine and life and law.

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Speaker 2: There's nothing quite like it.

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Speaker 1: Well, I see that you're passionate about it, and you've

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Speaker 1: been working in it for a very very long long time.

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Speaker 1: From it the impact it has on you. You're looking

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Speaker 1: at death, causes of death. What's the toll it's taken

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Speaker 1: on you.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm only twenty eight.

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say you're doing well for thirty.

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Speaker 2: That's right. Okay. It's an interesting question, and it's one

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Speaker 2: that I've for considered, as you know, and I've called

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Speaker 2: it the right to mourn and say that nobody talks

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Speaker 2: about post traumatic stress with forensic pathologists, and yet every

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Speaker 2: month of every year we go out to scenes. We

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Speaker 2: see dismembered bodies, incinerated bodies, we see children that have

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Speaker 2: been staffed to death, vehicle accidents, dreadful scenes, and we

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Speaker 2: have to not only immerse ourselves in it, we have

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Speaker 2: to then describe it in great detail, understand it. Then

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Speaker 2: we have to present it sometimes to a jury, and

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Speaker 2: be attacked, have our credibility attack while we're doing it.

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Speaker 2: So we are so close to this. I think one

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Speaker 2: of the things that saves us is the science of it.

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Speaker 2: We're focusing on the science, We're not focusing on the

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Speaker 2: horror of the situation. But I'm nearing the end of

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Speaker 2: my career now, in fact, I'm nearly dead.

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Speaker 1: Probably well, actually, if you died on the podcast.

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Speaker 2: That would be a spectacular finish.

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Speaker 1: We could do something with it. It wouldn't be forgotten.

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Speaker 2: But that going sort of television bloopers.

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Speaker 1: Or look, we'll find the place for this social media. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm starting to come to terms of it. We'll find

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Speaker 1: the place fore you'll go viral.

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Speaker 2: I feel comfortable there, okay, But as I get to

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Speaker 2: the end of my career, I've been thinking more and

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Speaker 2: more about the toll and what I've seen, and it

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Speaker 2: doesn't get easier. You know, my area's children pediatric forensics.

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Speaker 2: When I first started, I knew I was going to

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Speaker 2: find courses of these deaths and gung ho. And then

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Speaker 2: as I got further and further into my career, I

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Speaker 2: realized that, no, I'm not going to finances all the time,

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Speaker 2: and I'm going to have to sit down with families

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Speaker 2: and say I have no idea. All I can say

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Speaker 2: to them is it was nothing that you did. And

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Speaker 2: also a lot of the times they just want to

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Speaker 2: meet the person that looked after their baby between the

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Speaker 2: time when they saw the baby last, and when they

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Speaker 2: saw the baby at the funeral home, and to know

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Speaker 2: that the it wasn't just a case. And of course

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Speaker 2: I always refer to the babies by their name and

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Speaker 2: just so this was not just a case for me

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Speaker 2: or for the mortuary stuff. You know, a baby who

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Speaker 2: has died, or a little child has died is a

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Speaker 2: tragedy and there's no getting around it.

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Speaker 1: And that commit because they're very sensitive at that stage

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Speaker 1: and you say the wrong word or forget the child's

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Speaker 1: name or.

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Speaker 2: Call the child. I've seen people do that. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: mean just terrible things.

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Speaker 1: And that they're real triggering for a person grieving. So

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Speaker 1: I think I can see what you're saying, and we'd

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Speaker 1: have a great benefit to the people knowing that the

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Speaker 1: person handling their child or that loved one is someone

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Speaker 1: that's compassionate.

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Speaker 2: Well, I remember the first pediatric autopsy I did, a

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Speaker 2: little French Canadian girl called Genevieve, and that was back

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Speaker 2: in ninety eighty four. I think, and I often wonder

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Speaker 2: whether because I use her case for teaching, I've often thought,

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Speaker 2: should I get in contact with the parents and let

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Speaker 2: them know that you know, somebody remembers Genevieve, but I

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Speaker 2: don't know. I mean, it's it's so long ago, and

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Speaker 2: maybe it's better just to let it let it go.

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Speaker 1: The perception of what is involved in the post mortem

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Speaker 1: can Yeah, you've done over six thousand post mortems. Can

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Speaker 1: you just describe to our listeners what is involved in

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Speaker 1: the post mortem?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a basically, it's a scientific medical examination of

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Speaker 2: the body. So if it's a suspicious death, it'll involve

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Speaker 2: the clothing and the surroundings. But if it's just a

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Speaker 2: natural death somebody's just sort of fallen over in the street,

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Speaker 2: we bring them in. We video the bodies with the

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Speaker 2: clothing and possessions so that there's a record of that.

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Speaker 2: We take the body into the mortuary and then we

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Speaker 2: do a really detailed external examination. So essentially we're looking

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Speaker 2: for any signs of injury, because that's what we want

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Speaker 2: to exclude, you know, it's something that's unexpected that shouldn't

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Speaker 2: be there. And we're looking for signs of disease as well.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes you can identify disease from external examinations. And then

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Speaker 2: we do a three cavity dissection, and this is a

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Speaker 2: traditional autopsy. We've moved away from that now with radiological investigations.

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Speaker 2: But in the traditional form you would open the head

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Speaker 2: and examine the brain, you'd open the chest and examine

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Speaker 2: the lungs and heart and the admin, liver, intestines, all

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Speaker 2: the orbits are taken out in wighe they're carefully dissected,

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Speaker 2: looking for tumors, looking for inflammation, looking for some sort

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Speaker 2: of disease. We've moved on now we have CT examinations,

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Speaker 2: So all of our cases, most fronsic mortars around the

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Speaker 2: world get a CT which is just a very sophisticated

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Speaker 2: X ray that gives us very good imaging, the same

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Speaker 2: as the clinical cts and hospitals. So we can see

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Speaker 2: if there's a ruptured order blood around the heart, we

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Speaker 2: can see if there's a florid in pneumonia, we can

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Speaker 2: see if there's a brain hemorrhage. So in those cases

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Speaker 2: we will then say, okay, we've got a cause of death.

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Speaker 2: We'll do an external to make sure we don't see

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Speaker 2: anything untoward, and then the families don't have to go

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Speaker 2: through the whole process of having the autopsy done. We

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Speaker 2: have the information we need, so it's I think, in

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Speaker 2: a way kind of to families. Some families want autopsies,

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Speaker 2: families don't, and if they don't, this is a way

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Speaker 2: of sort of getting their loved ones back to them

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Speaker 2: as soon as possible.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, do you find now that's progressed into getting CT

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Speaker 1: scans and the science has improved along lads lines. The

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Speaker 1: findings that you had prior to T scans were correct,

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Speaker 1: because quite often I'd be standing there at the post

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Speaker 1: more than and we'd be looking at the say it

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Speaker 1: was a bullet wound. What was the direction of the

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Speaker 1: bullet stab wound? That type of thing looks like it's

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Speaker 1: come from the left. Did that change the thinking on

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Speaker 1: determining what the nature of the injuries were?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, CET's been excellent. It's interesting, as you know, with

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Speaker 2: stab wounds, you will the knife will be taken out

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Speaker 2: and then you'll do a careful lad dis section and

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Speaker 2: you can say this is the way it was going.

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Speaker 2: A friend of mine in Sweden a number of years

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Speaker 2: ago did a CT on a stab wound with the

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Speaker 2: knife in place. And what the knife had done is

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Speaker 2: had come in from the left side and pushed all

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Speaker 2: of the organs to the right. But when you took

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Speaker 2: the knife out, everything came back to the midline. So

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Speaker 2: the careful dissection was say, knife was coming from the front.

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Speaker 2: The CT told us a different story. And sometimes cts

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Speaker 2: will tell you something that's not at all obvious. I

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Speaker 2: had a poor detective. He'd had a body and this

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Speaker 2: fellow had cut his wrists and arms and bled to

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Speaker 2: death in the bath. And so I was looking at

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Speaker 2: the CT and lo and behold there was a collapse

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Speaker 2: lung and there was a stab wound in the chest

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Speaker 2: which this bloke had missed. And so I presented it

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Speaker 2: to Major Crime and I said, fancy missing that, I said,

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Speaker 2: and look at the body. I missed it too, because

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Speaker 2: what had happened is that the wound had closed over,

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Speaker 2: so you couldn't looking at the body externally. Very hard

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Speaker 2: to see CT two seconds.

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Speaker 1: Wow, well there's a science, said. Were you a believer

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Speaker 1: in having the investigator at the post more than absolutely?

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, all the time. I mean it's with OCKH

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Speaker 2: health and safety rules. Now, sometimes the police have to

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Speaker 2: stand on the other side of the observation screen. I

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Speaker 2: prefer to have the police in there so that we're

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Speaker 2: talking about the case, working our way through it. When

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Speaker 2: I find something, you know, if I show you through

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Speaker 2: a glass window. It's not the same as pointing out

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Speaker 2: to you directly.

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Speaker 1: No, I always found it beneficial to be at the

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Speaker 1: post more than if I was on a particular investigation.

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Speaker 1: I tell this story and that probably dates me. But

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Speaker 1: the first post, more than I went to, and I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to name the hospital, and I'm sure the

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Speaker 1: pathologist is long gone, was smoking, standing there smoking, Yes,

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Speaker 1: no gloves on. And I walk in as this young

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Speaker 1: copy shook my hand and then I look where his

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Speaker 1: hands had been with no gloves and standing over the

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Speaker 1: body smoking. We've come a long way.

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Speaker 2: Well, i wear a full protective suit, so I've got

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Speaker 2: a respirator, you know, I've gloves, sleeves, food smoking, nothing

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Speaker 2: like that in the mortuary. No, it's a much more.

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Speaker 2: It's a process that could be videoed and used to

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Speaker 2: show people that it's done scientifically now and with respect,

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Speaker 2: with respect.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's the important thing. And I think that's a

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Speaker 1: fear that the victim or the deceased families have, is

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Speaker 1: what's going to happen. Who's caring for our loved one,

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Speaker 1: regardless of the fact that they're now deceased. I want

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Speaker 1: to talk on this is. I think it's played prominently

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Speaker 1: in your career. Not the only case, obviously, but that's

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Speaker 1: the bodies in the barrel case. We talk about the

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Speaker 1: Snowtown murders. Eleven people I believe were murdered. Where the

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Speaker 1: bodies were disposed. I think there was eight bodies disposed

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Speaker 1: in a disused bank in a small country town. I'd

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Speaker 1: call them forty four gallon drum type barrels. You had

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Speaker 1: just started as a forensic pathologist, yep, down in South Australia.

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Speaker 2: My first week on call.

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Speaker 1: Actually, I don't know what it is about South Australia,

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Speaker 1: but whenever South Australia police I find me, it was

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Speaker 1: never good news. There's something about South Australia, but it's

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Speaker 1: a special place. Your second week and you get a call,

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Speaker 1: do you want to talk us through the process of

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Speaker 1: that case? It was a horrific and what you uncovered

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Speaker 1: and the role that you played in that case.

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Speaker 2: Well, when I started, my colleagues in Eastern States, we're

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Speaker 2: talking about adelaide As being the city of churches and

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Speaker 2: serial killers, and there's there's a certain truth to that.

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Speaker 2: There's Snowtown. I was called by head a major crime

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Speaker 2: one night I think it was a Thursday night, and

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Speaker 2: I was so green. I didn't realize that when the

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Speaker 2: head of major crime calls you, it's pretty serious.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: He said he was in a little place called Snowtown

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Speaker 2: and he described the barrels and they said, do you

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Speaker 2: want to come up? And so you know the evidence

349
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Speaker 2: is in there, you know, why don't you just bring them?

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Speaker 2: Bring them down to Adelaide. So I didn't go to

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Speaker 2: the crime scene because for me, the crime scene was

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Speaker 2: actually within the barrels. So they were brought down and

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Speaker 2: the next day we had to work out the mechanics

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Speaker 2: of how to handle this because they're very heavy. We'd

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Speaker 2: been told our full of acids, so it could be toxic,

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Speaker 2: so we had to test the fluid. Then we had

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Speaker 2: to work out how to empty the barrels and not

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Speaker 2: lose evidence because you know, you could be bullets are

359
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Speaker 2: inn in there. So there are eight bodies partially dismembered

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Speaker 2: in the barrels.

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Speaker 1: What did you know at that stage?

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Speaker 2: Well, I tried to convince Paul Schram that was probably hydroponic,

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Speaker 2: and he said what should he do? And I said,

364
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Speaker 2: We'll take a lit off and if you find remains,

365
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Speaker 2: give me be a call, and you know, ten minutes

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Speaker 2: later said yes, there were feet poking out. So I said, dear,

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Speaker 2: how many barrels? Eight barrels, and I said, let's bring

368
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Speaker 2: them down. But there were two bodies buried at Waterloo Corner.

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Speaker 2: Clinton's recise had been murdered. He was the first one

370
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Speaker 2: buried up at lower Light. And there was a case

371
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Speaker 2: that was a hanging that originally thought to be a suicide,

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Speaker 2: but they'd actually forced their spoke to hang himself. So

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Speaker 2: there were a number of them. But the mechanics of

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Speaker 2: taking the bodies out was extraordinary.

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Speaker 1: So okay, and I hadn't even thought about the logistics,

376
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Speaker 1: but yeah, moving the barrels and all sorts of potential issues.

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Speaker 1: You don't know what's in them. So you work out

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Speaker 1: the mechanics to get the barrels to your laboratory or

379
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Speaker 1: and then how did you what was the process?

380
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,120
Speaker 2: Well, we took the lid off, had to look inside,

381
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:11,879
Speaker 2: got some idea what was going on, and they were

382
00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,640
Speaker 2: in various states of decomposition. Some are actually quite well preserved.

383
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Speaker 2: Then we put the lid bag on, turned them on

384
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Speaker 2: the side on a bench and used sieves, you know,

385
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Speaker 2: the sieves were archaeological and just sieved all the fluid

386
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Speaker 2: as it came out. We found well, we found thumb

387
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Speaker 2: locks and gags and all sorts of things. So we

388
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Speaker 2: didn't we didn't want that material to be lost because

389
00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:35,480
Speaker 2: it was very important. So then when all the floor

390
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:37,960
Speaker 2: was out, we brought the bodies out and we just

391
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,960
Speaker 2: gave them letters f and then put them on taps

392
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Speaker 2: and then just matched up. We did DNA testing, which

393
00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:49,159
Speaker 2: didn't work. Which is interesting is that, well, that's what

394
00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:50,520
Speaker 2: people said, you know you can get you can do

395
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Speaker 2: DNA testing on dinosaurs. Why not this because of the

396
00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:56,080
Speaker 2: nature of how it was the bodies were stored. They're

397
00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:00,480
Speaker 2: in an oxygen deprived environment, which was originally a and

398
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,000
Speaker 2: DNA just doesn't survive that. We got a foot in

399
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,199
Speaker 2: a gumbot that came up in a fishing net in

400
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,320
Speaker 2: the bit. We could do DNA on that, and it

401
00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:10,560
Speaker 2: was from a fisherman who had overboard ten years before.

402
00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:15,080
Speaker 2: But the condition was obviously much better for preserving DNA

403
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:16,040
Speaker 2: than in these barrels.

404
00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,240
Speaker 1: Had the bodies that had the flesh decomposed in.

405
00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,960
Speaker 2: The yes, No, some hadn't, some had, Some were very

406
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,520
Speaker 2: well preserved and we could. We could see tattoos you

407
00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:30,400
Speaker 2: could use to identify, We could do dental records. And

408
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,399
Speaker 2: also the police had a fair idea who they were,

409
00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:35,880
Speaker 2: which is obviously important because if you have no idea

410
00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:37,760
Speaker 2: who somebody is, how can you actually then you know,

411
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:40,640
Speaker 2: do dental records, you know, how can we.

412
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,880
Speaker 1: Where these stay? Yeah, that's right, you've called out identification,

413
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Speaker 1: but also the cause and manner of death.

414
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,919
Speaker 2: Yes, indeed, what did you find? It was difficult because

415
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:56,719
Speaker 2: of the or preservation. The bodies had broken down. We

416
00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,399
Speaker 2: were looking for natural diseases, but sometimes the augments were

417
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:06,480
Speaker 2: missing because that decomposed. We found gags and things put

418
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,920
Speaker 2: in their mouths, you know, suffocation was was likely. As

419
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,480
Speaker 2: I said, they had handcuffs and thumb locks, so we

420
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,880
Speaker 2: didn't find any evidence of torture, probably because of the

421
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,720
Speaker 2: state of preservation. There's been stories about they've been inserting

422
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,800
Speaker 2: sparkles into their penises, and we could find OVID into that,

423
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:28,320
Speaker 2: which doesn't mean it didn't happen. Happen. And the cannibalism,

424
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:32,960
Speaker 2: you know, the last victim, apparently forgotten which perpetrator might

425
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,200
Speaker 2: have been Bunting, took a slab of thigh and cooked

426
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:37,080
Speaker 2: it up for his mates.

427
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,520
Speaker 1: Where where did where did that information come from?

428
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Speaker 2: Jimmy of Thesarkus was one of the perpetrators Bunting Wagner

429
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,919
Speaker 2: of the circus, and he gave the police a lot

430
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,680
Speaker 2: of evidence. He gave that story.

431
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, how did that impact on you?

432
00:21:53,960 --> 00:22:00,320
Speaker 2: Again? You hide behind the science. You know, people generally

433
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 2: are just terrible dealing with death now. But because we

434
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,840
Speaker 2: do it all the time, and because my aim was

435
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,919
Speaker 2: to see if I could find physical evidence of this

436
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,439
Speaker 2: to corroborate or disprove the story, then I'm focusing on that.

437
00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,720
Speaker 2: You sort of remove yourself. It's like surgeons in the

438
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,440
Speaker 2: operating room sometimes leaning on a chest and then takes

439
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 2: a breath. They realized it it's actually a patient, not

440
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:23,800
Speaker 2: just an appendix. You know, you focus.

441
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,920
Speaker 1: I understand and that one of the interviews that you did,

442
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,480
Speaker 1: you talked about it didn't impact because you had a

443
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,639
Speaker 1: job to do. You're looking at this person is okay,

444
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:35,640
Speaker 1: this is my role, this is a job.

445
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 2: I think that's true. I mean with Thailand, with the tsunami,

446
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 2: when I was in body identifications, I was offered a

447
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 2: chance to go back a second time. I couldn't do it.

448
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,359
Speaker 2: There were so many dead children, and you know, these

449
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 2: piles of bodies, truckloads of bodies. That was and you're

450
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 2: just seeing the whole scene. You're not focusing on a

451
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 2: knife wound and the horror of it all.

452
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 1: How long were you involved in the Snowtown investigation? Did

453
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:00,440
Speaker 1: you give evidence at court? Yes?

454
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 2: I did. Snowtown went on for years actually, but initially

455
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 2: we were asked about the state of the bodies and

456
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 2: you know how they putrefy, what sort of does this

457
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,800
Speaker 2: do to the evidence? And then the case that I

458
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 2: went to caught with. I mean, I assisted getting all

459
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 2: the bodies out of the barrels, but then I was

460
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 2: overseas for a couple of weeks. So the one that

461
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,120
Speaker 2: I was involved when was a body, a skeletonized body

462
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 2: found at Waterloo Corner. Two bodies found there. Again, could

463
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 2: I exclude the fact that she had died of a

464
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 2: heart attack and they just hidden the body? No, I couldn't,

465
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,200
Speaker 2: because I don't have the heart. You know, if you

466
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,359
Speaker 2: don't have the organs. And that's I've done a study

467
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:47,239
Speaker 2: on concealment of homicides and quite a significant percentage, as

468
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,919
Speaker 2: you know, are concealed hoping they won't be found, or

469
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 2: if they are found, I'd be so decomposed that a

470
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 2: lot of the evidence will have gone.

471
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:58,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I find that then. I don't want to say

472
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,199
Speaker 1: too much. You don't want to give people idea is

473
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 1: but the amount of bodies that go into the water,

474
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,679
Speaker 1: that surface come to the surface, and that gives us

475
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 1: something to something to start the investigation with.

476
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,359
Speaker 2: Time and time again, I think we can talk about

477
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 2: it because I think that the people who do this

478
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 2: sort of thing are so into the internet. I did

479
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,720
Speaker 2: a study a few years ago. They do surgical studies

480
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 2: on pigs, and I got the carcasses and I took

481
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 2: a broken wine glass, I took a quantus plastic knife

482
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 2: that i'd bitten, and I took a Stateler pen and

483
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 2: I could stab straight into the carotids. So what I

484
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 2: was saying with that is that all the security measures

485
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 2: at the airports, you know, if you really want to

486
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 2: do it, you can do it. And I wasn't informing

487
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 2: terrorists they know that.

488
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, obviously, why do we use pigs?

489
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 2: They're quite like us. I mean, the most similar, of course,

490
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,199
Speaker 2: would be primates. But that's no go territory.

491
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 1: I'm not going.

492
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,680
Speaker 2: Not at all. So that is not done anymore. There

493
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,159
Speaker 2: have been some horrific experiments in the past, but with

494
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:04,159
Speaker 2: pigs they can be anesthetized. Their tissues are pretty similar

495
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 2: to humans. We did a pig study with the series

496
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 2: I did with Lawless, looking at the Canniff brothers up

497
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 2: in Queensland. You know the classic story. The two bush

498
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 2: rangers had killed a station owner and a cop and

499
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 2: then the dismembered remains were found in saddle bags and

500
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 2: they'd been put on a fire, and so the prosecution

501
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 2: turned it around from being shot to actually these horrific

502
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 2: creatures dismembered these poor men and then burnt them. So

503
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 2: we got a whole pig carcass and a dismembered pig

504
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 2: carcass put on the fire. The dismember pig carcass disappeared,

505
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 2: the whole carcass turned into what we had seen with

506
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 2: the Caniff, so we could show using the bodies there

507
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 2: that their story was actually correct. They hadn't dismembered them.

508
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 2: And that's that's historical forensics. It's not important nowadays, but

509
00:25:57,800 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 2: it's interesting.

510
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: No, it is odd experience. How often would you find

511
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 1: yourself in court?

512
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,719
Speaker 2: Ah, it's interesting. I never kept a record. I mean,

513
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:07,360
Speaker 2: sometimes you know, you know what it's like. You get

514
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 2: three in a week. Other times you get nothing for months, so.

515
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 1: You never won the see the inside of a cord.

516
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 2: Again, that's right. Other times, you know, it can be

517
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 2: a breeze. I mean the last one I went to,

518
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 2: I think it was a shooting, and both prosecution and

519
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,719
Speaker 2: defense agreed that yes, it was a shooting. And they said, well,

520
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 2: what did you find? I said, A gunshot wound? What

521
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 2: did they die of? Gunshot wound? Thank you very much?

522
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 2: You know that. I like that when and it happens

523
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 2: more with experienced lawyers, when they're not trying to make

524
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 2: points or you know, pursue some odd story, you know,

525
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:42,159
Speaker 2: taking what's obvious and then moving on.

526
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,479
Speaker 1: We talked before we started recording about being involved in

527
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 1: trials where there's a lot of medical evidence and how

528
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:53,399
Speaker 1: confusing it is for myself that I have an understanding

529
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,159
Speaker 1: of what's occurred and you've got the jury there and

530
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 1: people like yourself, eminently qualified people are coming in and

531
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 1: giving them very scientific explanation. Do you get a sense

532
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,400
Speaker 1: how difficult it would be for juras on some cases,

533
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 1: not cidely any particular case, but some case to absorb

534
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: all the information that's put for lock.

535
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and it's interesting.

536
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 1: You know.

537
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,919
Speaker 2: Sometimes I'm giving the most interesting information in my career

538
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 2: and the juries asleep and the judges gone to sleep.

539
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: They realize how long I studied.

540
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 2: Other times I'm almost sleep myself and they're writing it

541
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 2: all down. So yeah, it's fascinating, and I think it's

542
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 2: particularly difficult with experts. You're an expert if you say

543
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 2: your life. Sometimes you don't have to have a background

544
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,879
Speaker 2: in it, and so you can get somebody being diametrically

545
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 2: opposed to you and they look like, you know, an

546
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 2: old guy that's been on the traps for one hundred years.

547
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 2: You know, who do you believe? Also, now part of

548
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,640
Speaker 2: the problem is in publishing. There are these journals called

549
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 2: predatory journals, and they look absolutely kosher. But you pay

550
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:57,400
Speaker 2: to get your stuff.

551
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: Published, Okay, so I can get ability.

552
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can give two thousand US and I can

553
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 2: get a paper published on my theory and that can

554
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 2: be produced in court and it looks.

555
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: And then you represented as have been published. You find

556
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 1: these zoo impact.

557
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 2: I had a friend in a colleague in Malaysia that

558
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 2: happened to in the middle of the trial, I said,

559
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 2: what about this? It goes completely against what you said.

560
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 2: So the way I handle that is, you're on I

561
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 2: haven't had a chance to read this. Could I have

562
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 2: a ten minute recess? And then I go out and

563
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 2: I frantically google is this a predatory journal? And if

564
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:28,360
Speaker 2: it comes up as one, then I go in and say,

565
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 2: well it's not worth the papers. Predial Okay, interesting, but yeah,

566
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 2: thank god for Google. I don't know how we survived

567
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 2: up until when you talk about strange steps, different things

568
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 2: that you've come across with the examinations. If you've done

569
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 2: animals killing people. I heard you talk on the podcast

570
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 2: Guardians of the Death and talking about animals that kill.

571
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 2: What's your experience with animals because some of the stuff

572
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 2: that you were saying was quite bizarre that I never expected. Yeah,

573
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 2: I've been collecting animal deaths. I mean your death from dogs, snakes, sharks, roosters, mackerel,

574
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 2: bloke fishing in the dar And Harbor, and sharks from nearby.

575
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 2: So this twenty five kilogram mackel jumped out of the

576
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 2: water and sideswiped him.

577
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, wrong place, wrong time.

578
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you can't be unlucky. And the rooster death.

579
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:27,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, please tell me about the roosters.

580
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 2: It's just a little old lady out the back collecting

581
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 2: eggs and roosters. I understand, the nasty creatures. It went

582
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 2: for her and she had Varica's veins and pecked her leg.

583
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 2: And I've had a number of deaths of people with

584
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 2: Varka's veins who have just had minor trauma. There was one.

585
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 2: There's a cat scratch and people don't realize. And this

586
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 2: is the reason that I actually publicized this this stuff.

587
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 2: It's not because it's bizarre and weird. It's to let

588
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 2: people know that if you've got Varka's veins and you

589
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 2: get a small hole, lie down and put your finger

590
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 2: over it and elevate it, right, you will survive. What

591
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 2: they tend to do is wander around panicking and they

592
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 2: bleed to death, completely unnecessary deaths. Okay, but you never

593
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 2: trust a rooster.

594
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, take some advice there. Part of the stuff

595
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 1: that you do too. And I found that interesting because

596
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 1: people often look at forensic pathologists where you're only looking

597
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: at death, but part of your attraction to the work

598
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: that you do is that you can also prevent death.

599
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: Now you've given us all a warning about watching out

600
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: for roosters. If you've got Barricker's fanes, we'll take that,

601
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: take that on board. What what are some of the

602
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 1: things that you've looked at And I know that you

603
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: had a high level of expertise in Sid's death, and

604
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 1: how has that what you've learned helped prevent those deaths

605
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 1: down the track.

606
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 2: What's interesting My clinical colleagues call me doctor Death because

607
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 2: they don't understand forensic pathology. So I've they don't understand

608
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 2: all that much.

609
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: Really the area we won't delete that, we'll stand stand

610
00:30:59,600 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: by you.

611
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 2: But it's an area called preventive pathology. And so I

612
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 2: was taking cases from the mortuary and examining them and

613
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 2: seeing what went wrong and what you can do to

614
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 2: prevent it. And this is one of the joys I

615
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 2: find of pediatric forensic pathology. People say, how can you

616
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 2: do it so well? If I can actually find something

617
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 2: that caused this death and then let people know about it,

618
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 2: Like unsafe cots, unsafe costs. Years ago, they were all

619
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 2: over the place and kids were hanging themselves and getting

620
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 2: stuck in them and wedging. So I work with Kids

621
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 2: Safe and we lobbied the federal government and now there's

622
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 2: a standard. All cots in the secondhand ones have to

623
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,959
Speaker 2: follow the Australian standard, so you cannot sell an unsafe

624
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 2: cut and that's safe lives. Can't remember the last unsafe

625
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 2: cut I've seen, so that's really heartening. The SIDS story

626
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 2: is interesting. I've been involved with SIDS groups for decades

627
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 2: and we did a collaborative study with Harvard and we

628
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 2: showed that the SIDS babies have a deficiency and a

629
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 2: chemical in the back of the brain that controls they

630
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 2: head and neck movement substance P. So we've always said,

631
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 2: why do they you know, why are they dying face down?

632
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 2: Why don't they just lift their heads? They don't lift

633
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 2: their heads because they can't. So we're looking at genetic

634
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 2: markers of that. So maybe we can have a diagnostic

635
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 2: market to show kids at increase risk. So that sort

636
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 2: of thing I think makes this job really rewarding.

637
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you talk about the cots and wasn't the

638
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: old school thinking about laying children I'm talking young infants

639
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 1: laying them on their stomach and that that changed with.

640
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 2: The medicine is an interesting area and if you look

641
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 2: at the history of babies sleeping patterns. Babies used to

642
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 2: be put to sleep on their backs, and then people

643
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 2: said no, no, no, well I'll vomit. No last break,

644
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 2: Let's put them face down, and so there was a

645
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 2: really strong push to have babies sleeping face down. There

646
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 2: was a pediatrician Abrams in New York, so don't do this,

647
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 2: I'll suffocate. And there was a study that showed that

648
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 2: by putting babies face down, probably sixty thousand babies died.

649
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 2: Don't hear that very often that medicine is responsible for

650
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 2: that because it was a health initiative that didn't have

651
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 2: evidence and they saw you put them on their back,

652
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 2: they're going to vomit and inhale that they don't. So

653
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 2: it was just well intentioned but wrong.

654
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: I understand now what you're saying about the work of

655
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 1: forensic pathologists. It's not all about Okay, the death's happened,

656
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: there's nothing we can do, move on to the next step.

657
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 1: There is things that you can pick up in the

658
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 1: science and the medical science that can assist.

659
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 2: And that's why talking to you like I think is

660
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 2: important because it gets it. It tells people what forensics

661
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 2: is about. So it means that you know when I retire,

662
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 2: I'm not going to get you know, leather bound seat

663
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 2: of my autopsy reports. You know, I've put another notch

664
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 2: on the wall. I've actually done something to have an

665
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 2: impact in medicine. It may be because I am qualified

666
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 2: general practitioner. I qualified in general practice in Canada before

667
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 2: it started forensics, and so that maybe has given me

668
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 2: an idea of what the community deserves.

669
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 1: So you're looking at prevention, a couple of other little

670
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 1: side I won't say site hustles, that's not the right words. Careful, careful, Okay.

671
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: You had an interest in going back and look at

672
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 1: the historical cases involving bush Rangers, and I thought that

673
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 1: was that was quite interesting. Do you want to talk

674
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: us through that and what inspired you to have a look.

675
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 2: Well, the two areas that I findancially bush rangers and respute.

676
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 2: And I don't know whether you've seen my paper on

677
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 2: the death of rescue. You can you can take us

678
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 2: through you like that one? Yeah, I know the bush Rangers.

679
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 2: I got involved with a Foxtail series, Lawless, and we

680
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 2: looked at Ned Kelly, Captain Moonlight, Ben Hall and the

681
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:37,839
Speaker 2: Kenniff brothers and basically trying to see what the what

682
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 2: evidence there was for the historical story. If you look

683
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 2: at Ben Hall, the popular theory is that basically the

684
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 2: police snuck up on him and shot him in his swag.

685
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 2: The police version some things don't change. Be careful, it's

686
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 2: a bit different. They said they were waiting for him,

687
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:55,720
Speaker 2: They called him to stop, he didn't, and then consortable

688
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 2: hip Kiss shot him through and through with a point

689
00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 2: five six went through his gun belt. So we had

690
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 2: the gun belt at the Powerhouse Museum. Nobody had ever

691
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 2: looked at it properly. I put it together and it's extraordinary.

692
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 2: The bullet hole, it was a bullet hole shelving and

693
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 2: the only place you could have shot him to do

694
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 2: that would have been standing behind him, to the left

695
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 2: where hip Kiss was. Then we did scanning electro microscopy

696
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 2: which looks at sort of particles, and we found accelerant

697
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 2: and part of the bullet that killed Ben Hall, which

698
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 2: got lost in the cutting room floor. Because I thought

699
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 2: it was the most fascinating part.

700
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: Of the story and your interpretation from that that the

701
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 1: police story was absolutely correct, supporting supporting the place. Another

702
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 1: one that you looked at, Ned Kelly that's been put

703
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: up there as this folk here, you've got different in views.

704
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,800
Speaker 2: I'm amazed. I mean, you know, we had a stamp

705
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 2: issued on the one hundredth anniversary of his death. You know,

706
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: he was the Sydney Olympics, and yet he was a

707
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 2: bloke who very proudly stole cattle and horses from sharecroppers.

708
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 2: He wasn't stealing always from squatters, so people whose livelihood

709
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 2: depended on it he was taking.

710
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 1: So it wasn't a Robin Hood.

711
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 2: As I say, Robin Hood did not steal from the

712
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 2: poor and keep it fro himself. Yes, you only have

713
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 2: to look at the Drillery letter where he says he

714
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 2: wants the blood of the brains and the police to

715
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 2: rain down, where he wants to tie people who oppose

716
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 2: him over ant heaps and pour their fat boiling down

717
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 2: their throats. If the glen Rowan train crash it occurred,

718
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,879
Speaker 2: it would have been the biggest killing of police to date,

719
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 2: set up to kembush twenty eight police by derailing the train.

720
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,399
Speaker 2: I don't think killing serving police officers is a good thing,

721
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 2: and I don't think the person who has done it

722
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 2: should be treated as a hero. People will say to

723
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 2: me meetings and stuff, Well, you know the Americans do it.

724
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 2: Billy the Kid didn't see Billy the Kid at the

725
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 2: LA Olympics.

726
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, true, true, it's funny.

727
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 2: And we named so many things after Nick Kelly. He

728
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 2: was as sociopath and the thug.

729
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 1: Well part of our history, isn't it? And yeah, what

730
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,800
Speaker 1: other things about Ned Kelly did you learn looking into

731
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 1: the history?

732
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 2: Well, it was interesting when we were filming Lawless up

733
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 2: at Stringy Bark Creek. Stringy Bark Have you been a

734
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 2: Stringy Bar It's actually quite an eerie place because of

735
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 2: the history of it. Yeah, and it's just kind of presence.

736
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 2: But what they wanted to do is they wanted to

737
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 2: have relatives of people on both sides. So Leo Kennedy,

738
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 2: who was the great grandson of Sergeant Kennedy who was

739
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 2: executed by Ned Kelly, he actually initiated the whole project

740
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 2: by saying how terrible it is to go to his relatives'

741
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 2: graves to find kelly memorabilia. You know, we're more yea

742
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 2: giving a memorial to the killers, but not to the

743
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 2: serving police officers. But one of Kelly's relatives was there

744
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 2: and I was asked what I thought of the killing

745
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 2: of Sergeant Kennedy, and I said, well, when you shoot

746
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 2: an unarmed maned point blank in the chest with the shotgun,

747
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 2: it's an execution. And this fellows. Oh, I don't know

748
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 2: about that. You know, none of us were there. I said, well,

749
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 2: Sergeant Kennedy was there, and Kelly came out with a shotgun,

750
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,320
Speaker 2: so he could have put him on a horse and

751
00:37:58,560 --> 00:37:59,280
Speaker 2: send him back.

752
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 1: Because the the narrative that's been fed is that he

753
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:04,720
Speaker 1: was dying and he put him out of his misery,

754
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: so it was a noble action. But you're you're suggesting otherwise.

755
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 2: Well, I wouldn't trust things that Ned said.

756
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 1: Yes, you're so judgmental, right, yeah, I am.

757
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 2: I just this is what.

758
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: Robert Robert a couple of banks and chewed a couple

759
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: of people. And what about his arm or what's your

760
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 1: take on that from would that that protect him from

761
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:26,919
Speaker 1: a forensic pathologist point of view?

762
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, it's interesting because if he'd actually successfully killed

763
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 2: the those police with the train, would have been the

764
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 2: biggest killing of police officers to date in Australia. But

765
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:42,319
Speaker 2: I thought it was just a somewhat irish approach to armor,

766
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 2: that he'd only had the upper part of his body protected,

767
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 2: but it was actually well thought out. He that's probably

768
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:53,800
Speaker 2: a racist slurtion. Yeah, my great grandmother was Irish.

769
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 1: Okay, you can balance that out then.

770
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 2: But the plan was that the carriage would go over

771
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 2: the bank and he would be protected by the embankments

772
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 2: so his legs wouldn't have to be covered. And of

773
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:06,800
Speaker 2: course it was made out of plowshares. It was very heavy,

774
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,879
Speaker 2: so if you could reduce as much as weight. Yeah.

775
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 2: The other thing too, is you know, such his life.

776
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,280
Speaker 2: He didn't say that really. Yeah, no, it's just myth.

777
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 1: So with all those people that have such a life,

778
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,879
Speaker 1: it was you, wasn't it that identified if you've got

779
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 1: ned Kelly tattoos? Yes, to talk us through that, that's

780
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:30,320
Speaker 1: another obscure fact that came from well so obscure.

781
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 2: But no, I just noticed that a lot of the

782
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 2: people coming into the watary with ned Kelly tattoos that

783
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 2: died violent death. So I did a retrospective study, and

784
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 2: then I did a ten year prospective study, and sure enough,

785
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 2: something like eighty percent of them have died of accidents

786
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 2: or suicides or homicides or all sorts of strange things.

787
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 2: That's in a forensic context that doesn't mean if you're

788
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 2: in the community and you've got a Ned Kelly tattoo,

789
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 2: you're marked. But it's just it's a I think a

790
00:39:54,520 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 2: mark for sometimes drug associated lifestyles or risk breaking.

791
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 1: Risk taking. It's interesting. But I remember when I looked

792
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 1: at or heard you say that, I thought.

793
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 2: You're a Kelly tattoo taken off.

794
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,359
Speaker 1: Now I'm taking off straight away. I had had an

795
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: informant that was pretty hard to hide, and he's passed

796
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 1: away now so I can talk about him. But he

797
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 1: had a bald head and the tattoo of ned Kelly

798
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 1: on the back of his head, with the helmet and

799
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 1: the two guns, he was hard to hide. Needless to say,

800
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 1: Oh interesting Respute, Oh yes, please do.

801
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 2: I've always been fascinated by Respute. And the story is

802
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 2: that he was invited around to Prince Yusupov's house. He

803
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 2: was given enough sign not to kill a horse. They

804
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 2: bludgeoned him and then they shot him, and then they

805
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,479
Speaker 2: threw him into the Neva River, and the autopsy showed

806
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 2: that it actually drowned. So I thought this sound was

807
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:52,799
Speaker 2: not plausible. So there's one crime scene shot and there's

808
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 2: a contact gunshot wound in his head. You don't get

809
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,360
Speaker 2: that underwater. You don't get that running across the courtyard

810
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:02,359
Speaker 2: yelling out, I'm going to tell Zarina. You get that

811
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 2: when you walk into the place and the toxicology was

812
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 2: negative for the sin ard as well. You get that

813
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 2: walking into the place they want to get rid of in.

814
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 2: What do they do. They put a gun to his

815
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 2: head and shooting. I mean, you know, they want to

816
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:14,799
Speaker 2: get it over with quickly. So just that one photograph

817
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 2: on the historical record could show that all of the

818
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 2: mythology around resputants death was wrong. It's an interesting applying

819
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 2: modern techniques to that.

820
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 1: Well, it is interesting. And look, eye catch skills. Here

821
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 1: we are on the podcast and we're solving something unraveling.

822
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 1: There was another and I think it was a recent

823
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 1: article that you did about again, it's just the bizarre

824
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 1: world that you look at that your observations of the

825
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 1: world that mummified males dying in their house in South

826
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 1: Australia tell us about that.

827
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 2: I was sitting one Sunday night and there was an

828
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:50,280
Speaker 2: SBS program on this thing called kotakushi in Japan, elderly

829
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:54,399
Speaker 2: folk without family or social contacts being found dead after

830
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 2: months or years in their huh, And so I thought

831
00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 2: that's interesting. I wonder where that happens here. So I

832
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 2: did a study looking at elderly twenty years ago elderly

833
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 2: now and the percentage of cases that had decomposition and

834
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 2: increased markedly. The major group is sixty to sixty nine

835
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 2: year old. This is in Salustralia, sixty to sixty nine

836
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 2: year old males. And it makes sense because they're the

837
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 2: ones whose relationships have fallen apart, their kids have moved out,

838
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 2: their friends have all gone, they're getting into alcohol abuse

839
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 2: and they're lonely. So when they die, nobody knows.

840
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:33,400
Speaker 1: You're getting or they've been referred to examinations. People are

841
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:37,280
Speaker 1: being called and or coming across an abandoned place and

842
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 1: finding these bodies.

843
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 2: Well we see them the news all the time, don't

844
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 2: you know. Somebody has found they had been seen for

845
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:46,840
Speaker 2: three years and nobody cared. The way around this is

846
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 2: to have communities. And where I live in North Adelaide,

847
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 2: there's a coffee shop that will go to and about

848
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 2: two years ago one of the old fellows used to

849
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 2: come every morning didn't turn up, so people went around.

850
00:42:58,600 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 2: He'd had a stroke and he was in his bed.

851
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 2: He hadn't had that contact, he'd be yet another statistic.

852
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:08,320
Speaker 2: So we've just got to get back to understanding importance

853
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 2: of community very much.

854
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 1: The way life can live these days, you can not

855
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:15,919
Speaker 1: have contact and those little things like you're not going

856
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:17,840
Speaker 1: down to the local newsagent to buy the paper in

857
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 1: the morning. Yeah, that could be a simple thing, but

858
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 1: we've lost all that, and we can sit on their

859
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 1: phones or on their computers and not have that human contact.

860
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: But it's interesting that you identified identified that. What's the

861
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 1: most bizarre case you've come across.

862
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 2: There was a sharer talking about animal deaths who basically

863
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 2: got his throat cut because the electric shears and the

864
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,760
Speaker 2: sheep kicked the shears. You know, something you wouldn't expect.

865
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 2: I remember one fellow had I think thirty cats in

866
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 2: his house of cause animals, when you're dead get hungry

867
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 2: and they feed on you. So these cats are just

868
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 2: stripped this body. Of course, I don't know how he

869
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,360
Speaker 2: died because there are no organs left. If you have

870
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 2: a suspected homicide by shooting, say dogs have been at

871
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 2: the body, you need to get the youngest probationary constable

872
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 2: to go around and pick up all the dog scouts

873
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:06,440
Speaker 2: in the dog dropping Yeah, to X ray and look

874
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 2: for bullets, and you need to look at the dogs

875
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 2: to see those bullets inside there. I suppose the worst

876
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 2: would have been Jazzmine Core. The most bizarre probably would

877
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 2: have been Snowtown.

878
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:19,279
Speaker 1: Okay, with the Snowtown, I know that you've made a

879
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 1: comment that that stuck with you for a bit, that

880
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 1: you were getting the dreams.

881
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:26,959
Speaker 2: About a week. Yeah, okay, coming back alive.

882
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, talk us through that, because not many people talk

883
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:30,799
Speaker 1: talk about that.

884
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 2: No, it's just it's only happened to me twice once.

885
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,359
Speaker 2: It was with Snowtown, and I just was having these

886
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 2: nightmares that the bodies were all coming back alive. The tsunami.

887
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 2: I had nightmares after that, only for a short time.

888
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,399
Speaker 2: And Jasmine I didn't have nightmares. I just couldn't get

889
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,800
Speaker 2: her death out of my head. It really weighed heavily

890
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:51,280
Speaker 2: on me because it was so horrific.

891
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 1: Another said case that the murder of Samanthro Riley, that

892
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:02,399
Speaker 1: she was too thousand and three, schoolgirl, fifteen year old.

893
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 1: What was the circumstances surrounding that case? And this sort

894
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 1: of demonstrates why the forensic pathologists can bring to an investigation.

895
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean I can talk about this as you know,

896
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,760
Speaker 2: because I've been through the courts and everybody knows what happened,

897
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,880
Speaker 2: and the perpetrator has been convicted. Her body was found

898
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 2: semi clad beside a road north of Adelaide, Humbug scrub.

899
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:27,800
Speaker 2: It was, it was, it's a strange scene. Her underwear

900
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 2: had been obviously taken off and put on again. So

901
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 2: we don't undress bodies at the scene because you'll lose things.

902
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:38,239
Speaker 2: So it took her into the mortuary and she'd been strangled,

903
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 2: and underneath her underpants I found a tuft of green

904
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 2: carpet and all these brown flakes. It turned out to

905
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 2: be paint flakes. I also took a lot of DNA swaps.

906
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 2: I will swab anything because if I get a negative result,

907
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 2: who cares. If I get a positive result, great, And

908
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 2: I did get a positive result the DNA from the

909
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 2: outside of her genitalia, and so the police announced they

910
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 2: were going to test all the men in the district.

911
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 2: He perpetrator. He tried to kill himself but failed and

912
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 2: turned himself in. If we hadn't had the DNA. The

913
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 2: carpet came from the back of his car and the

914
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:17,520
Speaker 2: pain flakes came from his backstep. It shows you that

915
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 2: we've got modern scientific techniques, but we could have also

916
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 2: had something to fall back on, and just shows you

917
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 2: just a tiny tuft of carpet is one of the

918
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,439
Speaker 2: most important parts of the autopsy. You know, my mother

919
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 2: could tell that she had been strangled, but she might

920
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 2: understand the significance of the carpet.

921
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 1: Did you feel the pressure when you're doing autopsies on

922
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 1: cases like that, in a very sad case of fifteen

923
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 1: year old girl, did you feel the pressure that when

924
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 1: you're looking at this doing the autopsy, making sure that

925
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:47,240
Speaker 1: you're not missing missingthing.

926
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 2: Well, that's why I think the police help. Actually, you

927
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 2: know when they're in the autopsy room, because we're working

928
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,919
Speaker 2: through it together. So and the police have never put

929
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 2: pressure on me to be the case through or to

930
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 2: come up with a particular conclusion. They've always been incredibly

931
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 2: reasonable and I do appreciate that. But it was it

932
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:14,240
Speaker 2: was very sad because at the end of the autops

933
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 2: he was about three in the morning. The mortue tender said,

934
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 2: if you noticed something about her, I said, yeah, she

935
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:20,919
Speaker 2: doesn't have her ears pierced. She was quite a naive

936
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 2: little girl, and she used to go up to the

937
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:25,760
Speaker 2: bride shop at the shopping center and look at bridle

938
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 2: gowns and imagine being married in BALI.

939
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:32,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's just in your take on that situation that

940
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 1: sort of brings at home. What we're talking about.

941
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 2: Is does and I feel sad twenty years later.

942
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 1: Still it's horrible.

943
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 2: And if you don't feel sad, then I don't think

944
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:43,319
Speaker 2: you should be doing the job.

945
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, look you say that. I agree. I've been

946
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 1: surprised when working homicides that some people just seem to

947
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 1: have a disconnect. And I'm thinking that you actually understanding

948
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,400
Speaker 1: what we're doing here, the importance of it and the

949
00:47:57,440 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 1: impact it should have on you, and something I'd think

950
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 1: chip's missing if you don't pick up on.

951
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 2: I do too. And one other thing that I just

952
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 2: we can do that it's useful as forensic pathologists, you know,

953
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 2: if you're in court and the family are there. And

954
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 2: I remember going through a horrific assault this young woman

955
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 2: and her father was. She was Irish and her father

956
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 2: was he'd come out and I went out to him afterwards,

957
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 2: and I said, you realize, of course that she had

958
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 2: quite a significant head injury. So it's quite likely she

959
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:28,759
Speaker 2: was unconscious right at the beginning and felt nothing. I

960
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 2: don't know that, but it's possible, and at least that's

961
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:34,439
Speaker 2: something he can hold something to hold on to, rather

962
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 2: than listening to all of my description of the horror.

963
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 1: I've found families want to be informed, and there's a

964
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 1: time and place when they can be informed if the

965
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,880
Speaker 1: investigation's ongoing. Sometimes you've got to protect the integrity of it.

966
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 1: But I in my dealings, and I'm not saying that

967
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:52,440
Speaker 1: it's across the board, but in my dealings, at some

968
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 1: point in time, I say I'll sit down and I'll

969
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 1: tell you everything that I know, and they appreciate it,

970
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,319
Speaker 1: because otherwise, as you said, it's just circling around in there.

971
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 1: He had one under A lot took place, get.

972
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,400
Speaker 2: The wrong end of the stick sometimes and so easy

973
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 2: just to correct it. And I've had I've had a

974
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 2: woman contact me twenty five years after I autopsy her

975
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 2: daughter really just to go over it again. Yeah, it

976
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 2: was lovely actual because she sent me a poem this

977
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:19,360
Speaker 2: little girl had written with a photograph of her afterwards.

978
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 2: So that that's what makes it worthwhile.

979
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 1: It must mean a lot to you, little things like that,

980
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:28,359
Speaker 1: we might we might take a break here when we

981
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 1: get back. We've got we've got so much, so much

982
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 1: to talk about. I want to talk about the tsunami

983
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 1: and the process and what your involvement there in disaster,

984
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 1: victim identification, also balley bombing, and a couple of other

985
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 1: cases that you've lent your expertise to get into the

986
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 1: bottom of it. I also want to talk about your

987
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:54,440
Speaker 1: thoughts on life and death, because I find it fascinating

988
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 1: someone like yourself that has seen so much death, what

989
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 1: your your take on the whole? Are these our purpose here,

990
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 1: so we might delve a little bit deep into that,

991
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 1: if you don't mind that, h

992
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:10,920
Speaker 2: M hm