WEBVTT - Conspiracy Nation part 2: From fringe to Parliament

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<v Speaker 1>This is part two of a two part episode. If

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<v Speaker 1>you haven't yet, you can go back and listen to

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<v Speaker 1>the COVID conspiracy pipeline. Hi, I'm Ruby Jones and you're

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<v Speaker 1>listening to seven Am. It's easy to dismiss conspiracy theories

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<v Speaker 1>as fringe or imported, but conspiratorial ideas are gaining traction

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<v Speaker 1>with everyday Australians. About one in three endorse at least

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<v Speaker 1>one conspiracy belief. They're also being echoed by people in

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<v Speaker 1>power and have spilled into real world violence Today. Conspiracy

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<v Speaker 1>Nation authors Cam Wilson and Ariel Bogel on how conspiracies

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<v Speaker 1>lead from the fringe to the mainstream, including all the

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<v Speaker 1>way to Parliament House. It's Thursday, August fourteenth. We've spoken

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<v Speaker 1>about the Freedom Rally in Sydney in May of twenty

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<v Speaker 1>twenty three, and there were these posters and placards at

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<v Speaker 1>that rally expose the twenty eight, punished the twenty eight.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you tell me a bit more about that conspiracy

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<v Speaker 1>and where it came from.

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<v Speaker 2>So in the book, like we were trying to understand

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<v Speaker 2>Australian conspiracy theory culture, the kind of strongest threads that

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<v Speaker 2>come through all the Facebook groups and telegram channels and

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<v Speaker 2>in person rallies and protests that we have experienced, and

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<v Speaker 2>there are a few we looked at conspiracy theories around

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<v Speaker 2>Port Arthur. That's kind of one of the original conspiracy

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<v Speaker 2>theories that's spread on the internet in Australia. But this

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<v Speaker 2>idea of exposed that twenty eight is another.

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<v Speaker 3>Over to you, thank you, mister Chairman, mister Attorney General.

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<v Speaker 2>So back in twenty fifteen, Senator Bill Heffernan and Liberal

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<v Speaker 2>Party senator stood up in Senate Estimates and said that

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<v Speaker 2>he had a list.

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<v Speaker 3>It includes disturbingly documents that name in one document twenty

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<v Speaker 3>eight people as alleged pedophiles.

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<v Speaker 2>This was the time of their Royal Commission inter Institutional Abuse,

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<v Speaker 2>so Australia was kind of grappling with genuine cover ups

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<v Speaker 2>of child abuse.

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<v Speaker 3>At the highest of levels. There's a former Prime Minister

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<v Speaker 3>on this list and it is a police document.

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<v Speaker 2>But in terms of this document, there was not much

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<v Speaker 2>to it. People that claim to have seen it say

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<v Speaker 2>it's not signed, it's just conjecture. But for many of

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<v Speaker 2>these groups, it's become like one of the original sins

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<v Speaker 2>of Australia. So when you go to protests against renewal

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<v Speaker 2>but energy. When you go to protests that I went

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<v Speaker 2>to in late twenty twenty three against the Indigenous voys

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<v Speaker 2>to Parliament, you always see t shirts posters say expose

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<v Speaker 2>the twenty eight and it's become a kind of shibalith

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<v Speaker 2>I guess in Australian conspiracy theory culture.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, And so to what extent are we seeing politicians

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<v Speaker 1>take these theories from various forums, fringe theories and capitalizing

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<v Speaker 1>on them.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, certainly during the pandemic you did see some

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<v Speaker 2>politicians doubling in this space because there was a potential

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<v Speaker 2>political constituency there that they thought might be beneficial. So

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<v Speaker 2>we did see some nods and some kind of like

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<v Speaker 2>foot see I guess, between politicians and some of these groups.

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<v Speaker 2>But broadly we look at in the book the way

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<v Speaker 2>that these conspiratorial tropes are kind of politically useful because

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<v Speaker 2>they asked kind of so simple, us good guys fighting

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<v Speaker 2>against them, bad guys over there conspiring against us all.

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<v Speaker 2>And so we do see politicians use these frameworks. And

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<v Speaker 2>one thing we look at is the public discussion of

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<v Speaker 2>the Safe Schools program, which was an anti bullying program

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<v Speaker 2>began a Victoria was being rolled out federally in the

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<v Speaker 2>mid twenty tens.

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<v Speaker 4>Welcome turnbull is facing a new crisis in coalition ranks.

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<v Speaker 4>Government MP's are deeply divibe about and bullying program is

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<v Speaker 4>supposed to promote peace and harmony in the nation's schools.

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<v Speaker 2>And we did see some politicians using the term cultural Marxism,

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<v Speaker 2>that is.

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<v Speaker 5>This program is about marx societeology, about sexual liberation of

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<v Speaker 5>young people. I don't want it to be about sexual

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<v Speaker 5>liberation young people.

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<v Speaker 2>So these are the ways that these kind of tropes

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<v Speaker 2>can creep into our discourse, and we see this increasingly

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<v Speaker 2>because again, yeah, it is just such a useful way

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<v Speaker 2>to create a simple political narrative for people that want

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<v Speaker 2>to get clicks, get attention. Unfortunately, we do see them

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<v Speaker 2>kind of get folded in themselves because some of those

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<v Speaker 2>politicians that dabbled in anti lockdown kind of conspiracy theories

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<v Speaker 2>themselves became the target of conspiracy theories when people kind

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<v Speaker 2>of turned on them and accuse them of being part

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<v Speaker 2>of the plot, the part of the kommal themselves. So

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<v Speaker 2>these things do come full circle as well.

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<v Speaker 1>And what impact does it have having politicians who are

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<v Speaker 1>very much part of the esta plishment lean into these

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<v Speaker 1>kind of anti institutional ideas.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's really dangerous. Anna Merliner, journalist in the

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<v Speaker 2>United States who has looked at conspiratorial culture in the

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<v Speaker 2>United States, you know, she talks about how dangerous conspiracy

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<v Speaker 2>theories be as a way of framing the enemy. It

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<v Speaker 2>can lead to hatred so quickly. That's why I think

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<v Speaker 2>it is a very dangerous sort of framework for politicians

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<v Speaker 2>to be using. In the book as well, we do

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<v Speaker 2>look at the sort of threads of white replacement in Australia.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the conspiracy theory that white people are being

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<v Speaker 2>eliminated in Western countries.

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<v Speaker 5>Today, proof that the Abezi government is destroying.

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<v Speaker 6>Australia, whether it be through immigration, destroying.

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<v Speaker 5>It almost literally, it's crazy immigration intake. Now, this is

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<v Speaker 5>not a conspiracy theory, you know, the great replacement.

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<v Speaker 2>Through birth rate, through other means.

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<v Speaker 5>Our latest fertility figures show Australian women have never had

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<v Speaker 5>fewer babies purpose not in the history of modern Australia.

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<v Speaker 5>Just one point five babies now per woman.

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<v Speaker 2>And that means and of course in Australia, this has

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<v Speaker 2>ties to one of the worst acts of terrorism committed

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<v Speaker 2>by an Australian they're shooting two mosques in Christchurch.

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<v Speaker 6>In twenty nineteen, Brenton Terrant, a twenty eight year old Australian,

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<v Speaker 6>he posted a seventy four page manifesto calling himself an

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<v Speaker 6>avowed racist and citing his inspiration both the white supremacist

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<v Speaker 6>who killed seventy seven people in Norway in twenty eleven

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<v Speaker 6>and the white supremacist who murdered nine black parishioners at

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<v Speaker 6>a Charleston, South Carolina church in twenty fifteen.

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<v Speaker 2>And so those sort of threads of a plot of

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<v Speaker 2>invasion in Australia, you can see that coming time and

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<v Speaker 2>again throughout Australian history, appearing in our media. Scholar Cassanjaj's

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<v Speaker 2>looked at some of these issues, you know.

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<v Speaker 6>He argues that mainstream media.

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<v Speaker 2>And politicians have normalized white nationalist frameworks like this by

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<v Speaker 2>treating them as representing legitimate concerns. So you can see

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<v Speaker 2>the danger there, particularly when you look at christ Church

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<v Speaker 2>as well.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up, how Australia hasn't fully reconciled with conspiracy fueled violence.

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<v Speaker 1>Cam I'd like to talk more about the real world

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<v Speaker 1>implications of these kinds of beliefs. We've talked about the

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<v Speaker 1>christ shooter, but there are other cases too, aren't there.

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<v Speaker 7>Yeah, there's definitely been other acts of violence linked to

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<v Speaker 7>conspiracy theories in Australia. Probably the one that comes to

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<v Speaker 7>mind for many people most is the wind Biller shooting,

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<v Speaker 7>which happened in late twenty twenty two when three people

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<v Speaker 7>ambushed and killed two police officers, injured some more and

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<v Speaker 7>also killed a neighbor as well. And they had this

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<v Speaker 7>wide spectrum of beliefs.

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<v Speaker 8>The Trained Family members subscribe to what we will call

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<v Speaker 8>a broad Christian fundamentalist belief system known as pre millennialism.

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<v Speaker 8>It's a belief system that comes from Christian theology.

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<v Speaker 7>Anti government. They're also anti vaccine.

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<v Speaker 8>A range of different things help contribute to their belief

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<v Speaker 8>in this system, so the COVID pandemic, climate change, global conflicts,

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<v Speaker 8>social disparity.

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<v Speaker 7>There is also a sense of some pseudo war and

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<v Speaker 7>sovereign citizen ideology.

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<v Speaker 8>Now, early speculation around the motivation of the Trained Family

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<v Speaker 8>members was that it's centered on sovereign citizen sovereign citizen ideology.

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<v Speaker 7>And it's an example of how these beliefs can lead

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<v Speaker 7>you to extreme acts because they are extreme beliefs. When

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<v Speaker 7>you say that you were on the side of good

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<v Speaker 7>and other people are on the side of evil, and

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<v Speaker 7>you see that they're doing terrible things and maybe not

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<v Speaker 7>just threatening yourself, but perhaps threatening and actually harming lots

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<v Speaker 7>of other people, that kind of mindset leads you very

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<v Speaker 7>quickly to deciding that you want to take an extreme

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<v Speaker 7>response yourself. And if you spend any time in these

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<v Speaker 7>communities online or even in person, they are ones where

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<v Speaker 7>talk of violence is pretty common. Thankfully, it doesn't often

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<v Speaker 7>become real acts, but it does enough for it to

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<v Speaker 7>be a serious threat.

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<v Speaker 1>Can we talk a little more about this sort of

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<v Speaker 1>the antique government sovereign citizen ideologies, because there seems to

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<v Speaker 1>be a uniquely Australian kind of version of it.

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<v Speaker 9>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So, I think what people might be familiar with these

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<v Speaker 2>videos that spread online where people are having these bizarre

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<v Speaker 2>confrontations with cops.

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<v Speaker 6>I'm not in your juris sorry, I'm not in your jurisdic.

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<v Speaker 2>Gives can you tell the police they have no authority?

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<v Speaker 1>Can you can you bring can you bring the most

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<v Speaker 1>you don't have any authority?

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<v Speaker 5>What is the karan that's been committed?

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<v Speaker 1>No?

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe they say I'm traveling, not driving, so you don't

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<v Speaker 2>have authority or something like this.

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<v Speaker 1>We are not driving, we are traveling, traveling.

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<v Speaker 7>You guys don't even know what use are on about.

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<v Speaker 3>I made your most seniors.

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<v Speaker 2>These I would class under this broad umbrella of pseudo law.

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<v Speaker 2>So the term sovereign citizen is more common, but that's

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<v Speaker 2>quartistically American. Pseudo law is broadly this idea that Australian

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<v Speaker 2>laws are somehow illegitimate and don't affect the individual that

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<v Speaker 2>is trying to use them. So when we've spoken to

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<v Speaker 2>people that believe in these ideas or who once did

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<v Speaker 2>and no longer do, people have often turned to them

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<v Speaker 2>in a kind of moment of confrontation with power in

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<v Speaker 2>some way. You know, they've had something go very wrong

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<v Speaker 2>in their life, whether it be a kind of financial issue,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe they've run out of money and you know, haven't

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<v Speaker 2>been able to pay the mortgage on their house, and

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<v Speaker 2>in the confrontation with the bank, they turn to these

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<v Speaker 2>ideas that are kind of out of a desperation. I

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<v Speaker 2>think you often see people turn to these ideas and

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<v Speaker 2>kind of in a somewhat logical way because the banking system,

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<v Speaker 2>the legal system, like they are extremely complex, almost as

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<v Speaker 2>complex as sudo law itself. But there was a historian,

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<v Speaker 2>Market Cabbage I spoke to, who's a historian of these

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<v Speaker 2>movements in the United States, and he agreed about this complexity.

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<v Speaker 2>People do kind of come up with these ideas in

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<v Speaker 2>the face of immense complexity. But it's also just like

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<v Speaker 2>a great get out of jail free card, like you've

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<v Speaker 2>got to find just say you don't believe in the government,

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<v Speaker 2>like you've got a mortgage you can't page, you don't

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<v Speaker 2>believe in the government, like the council's told you not

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<v Speaker 2>do something. He's easy way out. And that's where I

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<v Speaker 2>think it might tind this kind of complex relationship Australia

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<v Speaker 2>has as a kind of post colonial nation. We do

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<v Speaker 2>have a sort of uneasy place here on stolen land,

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<v Speaker 2>and so sometimes I think at heart it's about that

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<v Speaker 2>really uneasy relationship we have with what we as non

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<v Speaker 2>indigenous people are doing here.

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<v Speaker 1>And let's talk a little more about how we as

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<v Speaker 1>a country responding. We talked briefly about the christ Church attack.

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<v Speaker 1>It obviously took place in New Zealand, but it was

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<v Speaker 1>carried out by an Australian. Do you think the Australian

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<v Speaker 1>government has reconciled with how dangerous these ideologies can be.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, in the book, we didn't want to just leave

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<v Speaker 2>all these ideas on the table and not discuss at

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<v Speaker 2>all how to address them, so we did look at

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<v Speaker 2>how people are addressing them on a personal level, on

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<v Speaker 2>a community level, and we did again look at the

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<v Speaker 2>failure of Australian government to deal with some of the

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<v Speaker 2>worst acts of violence that have been attached to these ideas,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think Christ Church is probably the most prominent

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<v Speaker 2>example of this.

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<v Speaker 10>Last week, on the eighteenth of March, Kebnet agreed to

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<v Speaker 10>establish an inquiry into the Christ Church Mosque's terror attack. Today,

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<v Speaker 10>Kebnet agreed the inquiry will be a Royal commission.

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<v Speaker 2>There was this Royal commission in New Zealand after the attack,

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<v Speaker 2>and I've spoken to people from the Muslim community there

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<v Speaker 2>who have very genuine concerns about how that process played

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<v Speaker 2>out and the role that they were able to have

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<v Speaker 2>in the process. But they point out to me that

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<v Speaker 2>Australia did not even do that. So at least in public,

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<v Speaker 2>we've had so little reckoning with the Australian roots of

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<v Speaker 2>the man who committed this act, you know what kind

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<v Speaker 2>of culture he was marinating in.

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<v Speaker 7>Here.

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<v Speaker 2>There has been reporting about his ties to far right

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<v Speaker 2>groups in Australia which is very well documented. He was

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<v Speaker 2>a par dissipant in our white supremacist scene on Facebook,

0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:29.600
<v Speaker 2>on other platforms, he was a donor to white supremacist causes.

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<v Speaker 2>But in terms of whether we could have spotted him

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<v Speaker 2>before he traveled there, any of these questions remain unanswered

0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:38.800
<v Speaker 2>in Australia because we haven't had any public process to

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<v Speaker 2>question our role in growing this person.

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<v Speaker 1>And when you look at us politics, conspiracy theories no

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<v Speaker 1>longer fringe. They've made it all the way to the

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<v Speaker 1>White House. Your book is called Conspiracy Nations, So tell

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<v Speaker 1>me how worried you are that Australia could have done

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<v Speaker 1>that same path.

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<v Speaker 7>Look to compare different cultures in different countries, but the

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<v Speaker 7>effect on individuals varies widely. Like saying that you believe

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<v Speaker 7>that howld Holt was kidnapped by the Chinese and a submarine,

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<v Speaker 7>very different to saying that you think that you know

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<v Speaker 7>vaccines are filled with microchips, and so you won't let

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<v Speaker 7>your children or anyone else in your life get vaccinated.

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<v Speaker 7>I'm not sure if I had to say, I'm not

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<v Speaker 7>sure we're quite where the US is. But the thing

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<v Speaker 7>is with Australia is that we have seen these conspiracy

0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:32.479
<v Speaker 7>theories used by powerful people in public life, and ultimately

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<v Speaker 7>this is something that needs to be resisted because we

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<v Speaker 7>think that conspiracy theories are part of human nature. They're

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<v Speaker 7>a way of understanding a world that is complex and

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<v Speaker 7>often has conditions that feel unfair to us. But that

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<v Speaker 7>doesn't mean that we should be resigned to accepting people

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<v Speaker 7>using them. We shouldn't accept them. We should be empathetic

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<v Speaker 7>towards the people who are kind of falling under their spell,

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<v Speaker 7>but to the people who are using them for their

0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:57.840
<v Speaker 7>own game, which we coin them out because ultimately we

0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:01.760
<v Speaker 7>really need that shared commitment to to a reality if

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<v Speaker 7>we actually are to solve the problems.

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<v Speaker 9>That are facing all of us.

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<v Speaker 1>Ariel and Cam thank you so much for your time today.

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<v Speaker 6>Thanks Ruby.

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<v Speaker 9>Thanks.

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<v Speaker 1>Also in the news today, Australia has joined two dozen countries,

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<v Speaker 1>including the UK, Canada and European allies calling for a

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<v Speaker 1>flood of aid into Gaza. It comes as Israel has

0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:43.520
<v Speaker 1>intensified its bombardments of Gaza City ahead of its planned

0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:48.640
<v Speaker 1>occupation of the area, and a blacklisted childcare worker in

0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:51.760
<v Speaker 1>Victoria was allowed to keep his working with children zech

0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:55.120
<v Speaker 1>for years. Afterwards, the male educator was sacked for sexual

0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:59.240
<v Speaker 1>misconduct in twenty twenty after an internal investigation found he

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<v Speaker 1>was grooming topdlers. The Victorian government says it's moving to

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<v Speaker 1>cancel the man's working with children check. The case comes

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<v Speaker 1>after allegations last month that another childcare worker, Joshua Dale Brown,

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<v Speaker 1>abused eight children at a center in Melbourne's southwest. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>Ruby Jones. This is seven AM.

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<v Speaker 9>Thanks listening