WEBVTT - Former Soldier Heston Russell's Private Battles On The Front Line 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:03.440 This episode of Headgame was recorded on gadigal Land. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:09.800 It's October twenty first, twenty twelve. Heston Russell leads his 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:15.520 team through combat operations in Afghanistan. It's his third deployment 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:19.000 with the Special Forces, but his first as the commander 0:00:19.160 --> 0:00:23.200 of the November Platoon. He has more than fifty successful 0:00:23.200 --> 0:00:29.240 missions under his belt. Despite precise planning and carefully sequence maneuvers, 0:00:29.480 --> 0:00:33.080 one of the soldiers under Heston's command dies during an operation. 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:40.720 Twenty four year old Corporal Scott Smith is killed instantly 0:00:41.040 --> 0:00:44.760 when an ID explodes during a mission to target insurgeons 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:50.559 in Afghanistan's Uazgan Province. For Heston, Corporal Smith is the 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:54.440 first and would be the only soldier lost under his command, 0:00:55.040 --> 0:00:58.680 but it's a scar that would remain well into the future. 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:08.800 I'm at Middleton and this is Headgame today, fifth Generation 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:12.920 Defense Forces veteran Heston Russell on his sixteen years in 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:16.560 the Australian Army and the battle that's followed him from 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:24.199 the front line. Now, Heston, I'm going to rattle through quickly. Hesson, 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:26.600 you spent sixteen years in the military, joining at the 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:29.640 age of seventeen, going on to complete more than one 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:33.360 hundred combat missions. Your dad served twenty years in the Army. 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:38.040 Your grandfather, your mom's dad, fought in Career and Vietnam Wars. 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:42.479 Your great grandfather also served during World War II, and 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:46.800 his great great grandfather fought on the Western Front during 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:50.840 World War One. Being gassed twice during the previous two 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:54.560 years of combat in France. You deployed four times to 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:58.360 Afghanistan and the Middle East. Served in Iraq as the 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:03.800 Special Operations Joint Planner within the Special Operations Joint Task Force. 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:10.200 You've done multiple counter terrorist operations within Australia and the 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:15.600 Asia Pacific region, a year long exchange within the United 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:20.079 States Special Operations Command. Wow, I thought that I had 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:24.600 a versatile career in the military. You, my man, absolutely 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:26.840 blow me out the water. It seems like that you 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:31.920 were engulfed as a youngster with this sort of military family, 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:35.560 this military environment, military order. What was it like growing 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:38.000 up and when did you realize that you were encapsulated 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:41.680 by military heroes that you know that was bred into 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:42.280 your family. 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:44.440 Oh and first and foremost thanks having me on. 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:46.440 Well done a rattling all that off for one of 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:48.320 the few people who would probably know most of those 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:50.760 acronyms and all the rest. I grew up with the 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:55.079 military influence from my dad and living within that military family, 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:58.400 moving around the country. But as far as my grandfather, 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:01.320 I knew my grandfather Mum's dad as a fisherman. I 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:04.800 didn't know about his service in Korea or in Vietnam. 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:06.120 He was a gentleman. 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:08.720 He was a ballroom dancing champion, something you know a 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:09.640 lot about as well. 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:13.519 We won't mention my dancing with the stars day wheremen 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:17.120 have go into this military mindset, now, gotcha? 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:21.320 And yeah, I didn't honestly truly appreciate my lineage until 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:24.600 actually more recent years when I started doing some research myself. 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:28.280 My passage into the military came simply from seeing my 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:31.320 father and his mates and those around him as those 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:35.560 sort of aspirational men that were sure masculine and all 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:38.040 the traits we see from men in society, but were 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:42.920 also caring, nurturing team players, had that heart of service, 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:45.680 putting others and the mission before themselves, and I really 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:49.000 saw them as very aspirational values and character traits to me, 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:52.640 especially during a time when I went through high school. 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:55.040 I was the fat kid at high school. I was unpopular. 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:56.640 I was probably having he. 0:03:56.720 --> 0:04:00.160 Sat there with veins whipping through his muscles. 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:02.360 Again, never again, never going back, mate. 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:06.040 But you know, it's a classic identity piece, and I 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:10.320 saw the potential self actualized best version of myself in 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:12.800 the military and wanted to at least go through that 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:15.440 journey to see what would where it would take me. 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:19.480 Yeah, you say, And I think it's a massively important 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:21.839 point where you say, you know, people think that in 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:25.200 the military we're just you know, individuals locked away in 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:27.280 an armory and the armory is open, and the way 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:30.279 we go, we cause destruction everywhere we go. But the 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:34.160 compassionate and the empathetic, the loving side of who we 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:37.760 are to not only want to serve our friends and 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:41.279 our country and ourselves, but to you know, but to 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:43.680 serve the people. Yeah, you know, we are there because 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:45.800 we care about the people. We want what's best for 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:48.719 the people. We want to be able to give them 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:52.200 their their blanket of safety or freedom. You know that 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:56.159 they sleep under whice we go and prevent terror from 0:04:56.200 --> 0:04:59.520 coming onto our shores. And there's that huge sort of 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:03.040 compassion side to a soldier that is just sort of 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:06.000 you know, wiped out that people you know, don't even mention, 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:09.799 which you just mentioned, which is huge because again with myself, 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:13.239 that was a huge part of you know, going into combat. 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:16.120 It's like you're there to preserve life. And I believe 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:19.479 that no one has the god given right to take life. However, 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:23.520 if you or someone else thinks they have the right 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:26.360 to take a life, I will simply deny you that 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:30.640 right by taking your life, therefore saving a life. So 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:33.920 I always processed it in that way of preserve life, 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:36.359 preserve life, preserve life. And when I went into combat 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:38.920 like that, it gave me a new sense of a 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:41.960 new sense of soldiering. And the one that you just 0:05:42.040 --> 0:05:44.760 tapped on there, which I think is super important, is 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:48.520 the compassionate, the loving, you know, that empathetic side that 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:51.800 no one ever sees. And it's interesting that you mentioned 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:55.679 that you were brought up around this environment because anyone 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:58.520 would think from your background me having reeled off everything 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:00.760 that you know, it got you up in the morning 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:03.200 doing press ups, you know, do it, you know, which 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:05.880 would probably happened. But you know, having that sort of 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:10.000 male sort of dominant organization or family unit where it's 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:12.120 just hurah, you know, let's get the job done. But 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:14.000 Ultimately it is a flip, right. 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:16.240 Yeah, massive. I mean, as you know, mate, being being 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:17.760 a soldier, being an officer. So much of it is 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:21.080 actually diplomacy, even out in Afghanistan. You know, we were 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:23.320 fighting the enemy in and amongst the locals and the 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:26.120 villages we went out with our partner force. So much 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:29.080 of it was also the information operations piece. You know, 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:31.599 you had to deter the insurgents from wanting to ever 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:33.640 fight you or our allies again. But you're trying to 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:36.120 win over the locals to support you, because when we 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:38.520 got on the ground on targets, it was a locals 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:40.320 telling us, hey, he's not supposed to be here. 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:41.600 He's not supposed to be here. 0:06:41.880 --> 0:06:44.240 And these are massive parts of the narrative that are 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:46.400 missed in the movies, a mist in the news I 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:49.720 missed in how much our soldier, sailors and men and 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:52.240 women were some of the most incredible diplomats as well 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:54.159 as having to flip the switch to be warriors to 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:57.960 take and prevent the loss of life in order to 0:06:57.960 --> 0:06:59.360 save life and achieve the mission. 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:02.719 Was there a moment growing up where you just thought 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:05.920 or you saw something. You might see some medals or whatever. 0:07:05.960 --> 0:07:07.400 It may be where you thought, this is what I 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:09.120 want to do, I want to join the military or 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:11.560 was it just the norm in your household and that 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:14.960 was the normal route of progression to take to join 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:16.400 the military. How did that come about? 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:18.240 Well, I think probably like a lot of veterans, mate, 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:20.840 I had a lead scout. I had the son of 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:23.080 one of my dad's army buddies. He was about four 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:24.920 or five years older than me, and he ended up 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:27.760 going to the Australian Defense Force Academy. He got direct 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:30.680 posted to the commandos and I think at the age 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:33.200 of fifteen, I remember walking into the recruiting office and said, 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:34.640 I want to be a commander officer. 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:35.480 I want to be lucky. 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:35.720 Yeah. 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:38.160 Argent laughed at me and said, there's a few steps 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:39.200 you got to take in between. 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:41.480 But that was a straight to. 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:44.240 The top mate, Listen, I love it. 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:45.600 Means to an end. Everything else in between. Yeah, that 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:47.360 was the goal. That was what got me in and 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:48.360 I just took me through. 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:50.600 And so that there's obviously the basic training you have 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:53.320 to go through. What unit did you join, How did 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:56.120 basic training look and was it a shock to you 0:07:56.720 --> 0:07:58.440 or was it what you expected? 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:00.000 I joined straight out of school. 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:03.960 I was seventeen, having gone to school in Queensland, and 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:06.720 I went down to the Defense Force Academy in Camera, 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:09.160 which is you do three years there, you study, you 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:11.760 do a degree at the same time. Picture a UNI 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:13.720 where you'd have your blocks of study throughout the day, 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:16.320 but in the morning it's physical training or it's out 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:18.240 there in the freezing temperatures doing an hour an hour 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:20.640 and a half a drill. Every Friday is a white 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:23.200 glove room inspection where you sleep on your floor because 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:25.160 you've owned your sheets to such a crisp point that 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:27.320 you don't want to sleep on them that night with 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:28.680 the hospital corners. 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:33.439 Three years mate, not good, goose goose bumps. You're bringing 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:34.760 back there the shivers. 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:36.960 Still to this day, I feel rebellious if I don't 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:40.000 make my bed. But yeah, you know, you're wearing the military. 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:43.760 Uniform polyesters every single day, and then when normal universities 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:47.680 would go on holidays, you're out bush doing your basic training, 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:50.960 doing your sleeping under hootchees and digging pits and patrolling 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:53.480 the stuff that handheld drones do these days we had 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:54.120 to do back then. 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:56.000 So it's three years and you go. 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:58.920 Across the hill to the Royal Military College where there's 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:02.640 no more civilian academics. It's all military strategy and study. 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:05.920 And I absolutely love that. And then it came out promoted. 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:07.360 That's where it starts to get meet to you, right, 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:10.560 that's when the two worlds I supposed start to separate, really, 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:14.400 you know, from society to really engulf in yourself. 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:17.439 Really well put yeah, yeah, absolutely into the military. 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:19.120 And particularly for me wanting to be an officer, that's 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:22.960 we really got to delve into the military art of tactics. 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:25.439 There's all the science of you know, the fundamentals of 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:27.720 the attack, the principles of war, all the rest. But 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:30.480 then we would just go out constantly and drill and 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:32.720 plan and then have to get a team and do 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:35.960 our plans and fail and see what was like, if 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:37.760 ever you were going to make soldiers do that, it 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:40.720 was brilliant and as opposed to arguing over you know, 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:44.040 philosophy or Pythagorisi's theorem or all the rest, it was 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:47.160 about military strategy and as you know, mate, it's one 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:49.120 of the oldest professions in the world. And the ability 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:52.679 to draw all that information and knowledge together to then 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:54.959 develop your own tactics and strategy. 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:57.760 It was really fun. There's actually quite a creative. 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:00.120 Artistic side to us, which you then have to go 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:03.320 practice physically to test your creativity. 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:05.280 It's not just so you. 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:07.960 Have to put it into into practice, into action to 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:08.840 test the theory. 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:11.640 Ultimately you are absolutely and that's the fun stuff. 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:14.640 And you know, all of that, combined with the officer 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:17.360 training I did throughout my career and particularly special Forces, 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:20.160 that development of the art of tactics is something that 0:10:20.200 --> 0:10:22.439 I just loved so much from the military career and 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:25.560 never really got to appreciate that creative piece. But promoted 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:29.000 to the lieutenant, went up to Townsville to the second Battalion, 0:10:29.040 --> 0:10:32.160 Royal Australian Regiment, a line infantry battalion, where I completed 0:10:32.280 --> 0:10:35.120 three years. Within my first year, I was deployed to 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:39.080 Team or Less peacekeeping operation and to this day I 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:41.400 probably say as one of the most important milestones in 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:43.880 my career as a twenty one year old between commander 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:47.120 of thirty people, a seven month deployment where you're spending 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:49.640 most of the time with your weapons slung and going 0:10:49.679 --> 0:10:52.760 out into the local tribes, into local villages doing key 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:57.319 leadership engagements and minds. That's it, and I'd studied Indonesia 0:10:57.360 --> 0:11:00.560 the language as a major at the academy. Straight away 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:03.280 I was able to really engage with the locals in 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:06.360 one of their languages and really achieve a lot as 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:08.360 the commander. You can imagine that comes through just from 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:10.040 a respectable level in itself. 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:14.079 Twenty one years old is platoon commander? Yeah, how do 0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:19.720 you feel, you know, especially going into that position as 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:22.800 a twenty one year old, such a young officer going 0:11:22.840 --> 0:11:25.920 into such an important role. And then you've got the 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:27.840 NCOs as well. 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:30.640 That are there that have been in for like sixty 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:36.000 seventeen years and they see this, Yeah, this young spunker 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:38.600 come in, he's twenty one years old, and you but you. 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:41.319 Know, you have to command respect, You have to you 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:44.720 almost have to, you know, go in with a level 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:48.720 of you know, authority, especially as a twenty one year old. 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:51.559 How did that unfold? And how hard was that to 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:54.720 settle in? As let's call it one of the lads. 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:57.280 No great question, mane you get it? Yeah, yeah, you 0:11:57.320 --> 0:12:00.720 are old ball, new ball and all the rest. By 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:04.240 this stage, I was really well advised by my dad. 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:07.280 My dad had been the military during peacetime. He joined 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:09.840 as a soldier, then became an officer, and during his 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:12.840 twenty years he deployed to Rifle Company Butterworth and that 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:14.559 was it. There was nothing else on and he got 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:16.640 out and he got back in ten years later, never 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:19.199 to be promoted again. And his simple words would be 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:21.040 good at your job, and be a good person, and 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:23.480 understand what your job is and what your role is 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:26.840 and for me coming into any team. And this really 0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:29.360 applied later when it particularly I went into the Special Forces. 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:31.960 You can imagine I was twenty six when I did that, 0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:35.480 and I had guys who deployed Afghanistan nine or ten times. 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:38.720 My job was to be an expert in planning and 0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:41.880 leadership and understanding that leadership is about actually being an 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:47.280 impact player, knowing and understanding your people, uniting people with purpose. 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:49.000 Is the role of a leader, not being the guy 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:50.760 out the front constantly. 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:52.840 And amgation decision making and. 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:56.760 Group planning, group decision making like bringing in your platoon sergeant, 0:12:56.760 --> 0:13:01.720 bringing in your section commanders, harnessing that experience and corporate knowledge, 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:04.000 giving them buy into the plan, learning from them, but 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:05.880 then just knowing end of the day, you're the one 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:08.080 to make the decision and you're the one responsible whether 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:09.760 it's a good plan or a bad plan. If it's 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:11.880 a good plan, it's all their success. If it's a 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:13.200 bad plan, it's all your failure. 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:14.440 Exactly. 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:15.880 Guess where I'm going to share. 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:19.160 Yeah, and just honestly just making yourself equal and having 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:21.280 those conversations where at the end of the day, you 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:24.160 do have the responsibility of the authority of your rank, 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:27.880 but no one is entitled to anything based on their authority. 0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:29.960 I mean, as you would know, mate, it's the toxic 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:33.240 leaders and the weak leaders who default to authority. Leadership 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:38.520 is about inspiring people, and I was very well benefited 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:41.720 by my physicality. I was always excellent at physical tasks 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:45.120 and tactical task and patrolling and all the rest, and 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:48.920 then really putting my due diligence to the planning, the communications, 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:51.319 the orders and all the rest, and just over time, 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:56.280 through respect and meritocracy, the guys sort of were won 0:13:56.360 --> 0:13:57.640 over and you've become part. 0:13:57.400 --> 0:13:59.120 Of the accepted tribe. 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:00.720 But then, as you know, the next part is to 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:02.760 make sure you don't transition into fully being one of 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:04.640 the lads and maintaining. 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:09.640 Absolutely buffer, especially of command, that hierarchical structure. You know, 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:12.960 there's a line to be drawn and for obvious reasons. 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:15.320 And I love what you said about leadership is about, 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:20.160 you know, putting yourself as an equal. It's that's super important. 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:22.160 At the end of the day, leadership is a service 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:24.160 to others. And you would know this from the military. 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:24.560 Mate. 0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:28.200 I've seen so many of my colleagues have gone up 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:31.280 the ranks. There's this something happens when they flip and 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:34.040 they think leadership is about being served, and that's when 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:35.320 you've lost it in my opinion. 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:37.840 Yeah, do you know what. It's a great point and 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:42.760 hence why you probably absolutely flourished in what you've done 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:45.080 as a twenty one year old and then you know 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:50.320 you progress onto the special forces. Now what's that transition like? 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:55.680 And because like myself, I went on selection when I 0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:59.400 was twenty six as well, and I enjoyed when I 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:05.120 was seventy as well. I was a grunt. But it's 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:09.480 one of those where you know, your aspirations can almost 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:14.200 be treated as a delusion, you know, when you're so 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:18.800 young and you they go, he's such so young and keen, 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:24.240 and you know, did you ever face face any backlash, 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:27.680 shall we say, or any sort of jealousy or envy 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:31.080 being where you were, who you were, what you'd already 0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:34.280 achieved at such a young age, and then wanting not 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:38.200 going on, but wanting to be a special Forces operator. 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:40.920 Yeah, well, I think I think firstly that delusion is 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:44.360 probably a handy thing, solely focused. Remember I had a 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:46.960 Plan A and there was no Plan B. The biggest 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:49.960 struggle I had. You had to serve a minimum of 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:52.600 four years in the military before being able to apply, 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:55.560 and then when I applied, I remember turning up for 0:15:56.440 --> 0:15:59.440 the assessment day before the selection course. It was one 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:02.080 of thirty officers and I was the youngest officer and 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:05.200 all the others had deployed to the Middle East before. 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:07.920 One of them was my adjudant from when I was 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:09.400 at the Royal Military College. 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:11.320 Syndrome. 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:14.320 The syndrome was the biggest thing I had to deal 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:17.200 with because I just sat there and compared myself to them. 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:20.040 I knew and I'd studied all the tabulated data of 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:23.600 every asset and everything we need in our planning iterations 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:26.920 for a Middle East based scenarios we'd face on the course. 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:30.120 But these people had called in gunshots, they commanded troops 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:32.600 in combat, and the hardest part for me was to 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:36.560 get over that mindset of I'm too young, I'm too inexperienced, 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:40.240 and I'm not as good as these others before we're 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:43.080 even up against any form of assessment. And as you know, mate, 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:46.200 you're not being assessed against them, You're being assessed against 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:48.840 yourself and your own performance. And it was those initial 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:51.640 mental and mindset gateways that I had to really push 0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:53.600 through in a very rapid rate. 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:58.720 And how does it look special Forces selection? How long 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:00.640 is it? And obviously I know you go too much 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:03.480 into detail about it, but how does it look, you know, 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:08.760 going on from as as an officer or as anyone 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:11.760 really going on to Special Forces selection? Is it? Is 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:16.280 it like the UK where you know you're literally separating 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:19.840 yourself from the unit you sign yourself over. If you fail, 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:23.160 then you get art. You'd return to the unit if 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:25.800 you If you pass, and you know you progress on 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:29.600 into a squadron, which was which was what the Special 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:32.160 Forces does in the UK. You go to a saber 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:34.680 squadron and then and then you embed yourself there. How 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:36.640 does it look for the Aussies? 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:40.000 When I went through it, I have the benefit of 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:42.639 my last job in my career was then redesigning and 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:45.680 running the selection course just as well coming out of Afghanistan. 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:47.760 And I could talk to you all day about that, 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:51.160 because I know you get that backcasting, emotional quotient development, 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:53.479 testing all the rest. But when I did it, it 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:56.520 was a six week process for an officer. There was 0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:59.080 an initial officer per week where the thirty of us 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:02.160 got together in every n officer from the unit would 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:04.600 come and just you. 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:07.000 And to this day, yeah, still been on one of those. 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:08.720 I've been on one of those. 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:11.560 Everyone who's got a chip on their shoulder, come out 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:14.760 and just go through a group therapy session at your expense. 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:15.600 Especially for officers. 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:19.800 Mate, those PT sessions that pictures, you know, two or 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:21.800 three to one staff members just on you. 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:24.040 And I have this terrible ability. 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:26.600 I'm doing it now where when I'm under stressful duress, 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:29.480 I just smile because deep down I'm happy to be 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:30.800 there exactly. 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:32.919 Yeah, yea. And going back to. 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:39.920 Never highlight yourself in a negative way, my guys. 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:42.119 Used to say in combat, the wouldn't met a camouflage 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:43.240 my teeth because it was the. 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:44.920 Only part that the enemy might be able to see, 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:45.560 even at night. 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:50.720 But but yeah, so, particularly being the youngest and you 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:52.240 and you, going back to what you said. 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:55.280 Beforehand, was that a weakness that was exploited or a 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:56.480 perceived weakness? Oh? 0:18:56.600 --> 0:19:01.080 Mate, I remember crawling through the mud, pushing time, flipping tires, 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:03.639 carrying heavy things. And next thing is like, what are 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:06.359 you twenty six years old number candidate twelve? Do you 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:08.720 really think you have what it takes the command soldiers 0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:11.720 who've been there, killed people, done this, done that, and 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:15.040 just planting that seeds of sabotage within your own head. 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:18.240 Seas of dow seas and self doubt that you grow 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:18.800 in your head. 0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:21.159 You know massive well, mate, and I'm sure i'd be 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:23.480 interested to hear if the statistics are saying for you guys. 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:25.960 But on that, that's six weeks for me. 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:28.240 I started at ninety one kilos about the way I 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:31.680 am now and went down to just over seventy five kilos. 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:33.560 And of the one hundred and twenty we started with, 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:37.040 thirty finished, and eighty to eighty five percent of the 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:41.240 people who come off the course year after year come 0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:43.080 off by their own requests. They would pull out their 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:45.199 form and they withdraw at their own requests. 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:50.240 Pollute withdraw VW Yeah, we call at WRT VW. 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:52.320 And as you don't mate, that's the most important, particularly 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:54.760 when we're given missions that are potentially no fail there 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:58.040 is no backup, and that process of breaking people down 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:02.280 physically and mentally to expose the true authenticity and do 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:04.640 you have what it takes when you're alone, when you're tired, 0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:07.640 when you're hungry, when you're under stress, to not come 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:09.639 up with a reason in your head why you can't 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:12.000 do it, but instead find a reason why you must 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:14.399 do it. And it was brilliant to be taken on 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:16.520 that mental journey and then, like I said at the 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:18.639 end of my career, be a part of taking people 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:21.400 on that mental journey and giving them their reflections once 0:20:21.400 --> 0:20:23.800 you come off the course. That in itself is just 0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:27.600 an evolutionary upgrade for anyone I believe who's gone through 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:30.160 that process, particularly people like you and I who've gone 0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:34.879 through successfully. 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:42.800 So when you do finally we call it getting badged. 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:46.440 When you do finally pass selection, what does that feel 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:49.199 like for you as a young off sub and what 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:52.720 does it look like for you moving forward? Because that's 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:54.720 just the tip of the iceberg. You go there and 0:20:54.760 --> 0:20:57.080 all of a sudden you are thrust off into multiple 0:20:57.080 --> 0:21:01.280 operations in multiple countries. It's like, but that moment, just 0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:05.560 that moment of you being badged or passing selection, how 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:08.040 did that feel? And what unit did you go to 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:10.440 and what happened thereafter? 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:13.280 Yeah, so I went to the second Commander Regiment. So 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:18.080 it's bet And as you know, mate, that beret is 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:20.280 so covered and it goes back to World War II, 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:23.720 and there's so much history and honor that comes with that, 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:28.119 and the official beret presenting ceremony is very ceremonial and 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:31.880 very detailed for that reason. But as you said, it's 0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:35.080 just the start of the journey, and you would know 0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:38.639 better than others. There's the whole being qualified. All the 0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:41.359 qualifications and skills we got on all the courses is 0:21:41.440 --> 0:21:44.679 like the academics and university, but then there's a lived 0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:47.720 experience and application of those skills in real life. 0:21:47.920 --> 0:21:50.600 That is the true education component. 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:53.040 So while you're skilled and drilled on paper, after the 0:21:53.080 --> 0:21:57.080 requirements to being a Beret qualified commando, the journey just begins. 0:21:57.760 --> 0:22:00.480 And for me, it was a baptism of five where 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:04.840 I was assigned to November Platoon, a platoon with an 0:22:04.840 --> 0:22:07.440 Alpha Company two Komando Regiment. They had just got back 0:22:07.440 --> 0:22:11.320 from Afghanistan. I was the youngest as a platoon commander. 0:22:11.640 --> 0:22:12.840 Here's the kicker, mate. 0:22:13.160 --> 0:22:17.280 During that deployment in twenty ten, on insertion to a target, 0:22:17.359 --> 0:22:22.560 one of the Blackhawks carrying an element of novembertoon crashed, 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:26.359 hit low, hit a feature up from the ground and 0:22:26.480 --> 0:22:29.080 three people were killed. Straight away, Ben Chuck, Tim Applan 0:22:29.080 --> 0:22:31.800 and Scottie Palmer and the others on the helicopter sustained 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:34.920 pretty incredible injuries, as you could imagine. They come back, 0:22:35.080 --> 0:22:37.119 they go through their de compression period. 0:22:37.200 --> 0:22:37.960 Next thing, I'm. 0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:40.240 Brought in as a new platoon commander. The platoon sergeant 0:22:40.280 --> 0:22:41.880 need to be replaced. He was injured on that flight 0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:44.320 as well. So my first job is forming, norming and 0:22:44.359 --> 0:22:47.800 storming a battle hardened platoon that's also just lost three 0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:51.560 of their best warriors during that recent deployment. And again, mate, 0:22:51.600 --> 0:22:53.960 it was defaulting back to the team more piece. It's 0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:56.800 just hey, what's my job? Get into it. And we 0:22:56.920 --> 0:22:59.840 had to then take over the domestic counterterrorism role that 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:02.680 we'd run out at Holsworthy here and straight away we're 0:23:02.680 --> 0:23:06.800 into an exercise that's the handover takeover exercise that the 0:23:06.800 --> 0:23:11.000 Minister has to come and sign you off, and you're shooting, moving, communicating, 0:23:11.040 --> 0:23:13.600 flying all around the country, presenting orders, doing all the rest. 0:23:13.640 --> 0:23:16.200 So I was actually really enabled by just being putting 0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:20.040 straight into a job that was too much straight in. 0:23:20.280 --> 0:23:21.960 There wasn't enough time to sit around and have cups 0:23:21.960 --> 0:23:23.639 of coffee unless it was first thing in the morning 0:23:23.640 --> 0:23:26.919 before the mission, and it was just all actions and 0:23:27.000 --> 0:23:29.680 words in orders and planning and all the rest, and 0:23:29.720 --> 0:23:32.280 straight away through just competence and being a good person 0:23:32.280 --> 0:23:34.720 at the same time, was able to win them over 0:23:35.040 --> 0:23:37.520 through the high tempo that is the nature of our operations, 0:23:37.600 --> 0:23:40.399 but it also could have very easily been the prime 0:23:40.480 --> 0:23:43.920 exposure for as you know, you can't bluff your way 0:23:43.960 --> 0:23:46.920 through that shit, and especially and especially with the first 0:23:47.000 --> 0:23:49.760 response from the lines then you're going into is just 0:23:49.880 --> 0:23:51.560 looking for weakness and looking for blood. 0:23:52.560 --> 0:23:54.360 That was probably one of the hardest. 0:23:55.440 --> 0:23:58.239 Times for me, just as far as being aware of 0:23:58.280 --> 0:24:01.560 all that I'm very empathetic and aware of all this 0:24:01.640 --> 0:24:03.880 that's going on, and then just being able to bring 0:24:03.920 --> 0:24:07.000 your mindset down to the five, ten and fifteen minute 0:24:07.040 --> 0:24:09.040 targets in front of you and not worry about the 0:24:09.040 --> 0:24:12.080 whole swirling emotional situation around you. 0:24:12.600 --> 0:24:14.320 I love that, mate, and that's why, you know, it's 0:24:14.359 --> 0:24:17.639 so important that I asked that question because I know it. 0:24:17.880 --> 0:24:19.000 I know that one you. 0:24:18.920 --> 0:24:27.679 Know who, they're not going to help you out climbing 0:24:27.680 --> 0:24:28.240 that road Maine. 0:24:28.320 --> 0:24:31.320 But you know what what you said about being thrust 0:24:31.359 --> 0:24:34.600 into the into work and you know having you know, 0:24:34.640 --> 0:24:36.920 there's no time to think about things. There's no R 0:24:37.000 --> 0:24:39.320 and R, there's no you know. It's the same with myself. 0:24:40.119 --> 0:24:44.800 I passed selection and within two weeks I was in 0:24:44.840 --> 0:24:47.760 the Middle East on pre deployment training and within four 0:24:47.800 --> 0:24:51.480 weeks I was point man within a saber squadron. So 0:24:51.760 --> 0:24:55.560 I understand the importance of you know, you being thrust 0:24:55.600 --> 0:24:58.440 into that because you can almost you almost own your stripes, 0:24:58.560 --> 0:25:00.879 you know straight away, don't you, rather than having to 0:25:00.920 --> 0:25:02.960 sit back and lay back and go, oh, do you 0:25:03.160 --> 0:25:05.679 do your funds in the office and go shit, you 0:25:05.720 --> 0:25:06.880 know what am I going to do now? 0:25:07.320 --> 0:25:09.320 And as you do, mate, That's what I just love 0:25:09.440 --> 0:25:13.119 so much about that whole Special Forces community and the 0:25:13.160 --> 0:25:17.240 whole job, particularly now in everyday life, where there is 0:25:17.400 --> 0:25:21.040 no room to hide, there's no room for inauthenticity, there's 0:25:21.080 --> 0:25:24.359 no room for you know this lollibag of words. It 0:25:24.520 --> 0:25:26.840 really came down to what you did and how you 0:25:26.880 --> 0:25:30.840 treated people, and as you've experienced out there for real 0:25:31.359 --> 0:25:33.960 with life and death scenarios, like what other job are 0:25:33.960 --> 0:25:36.119 you able to feel out each other and form a 0:25:36.160 --> 0:25:38.760 culture where you know you can't hide behind a computer 0:25:38.800 --> 0:25:42.880 and emails. You're out there planning, implementing the plans, taking 0:25:42.880 --> 0:25:44.920 the fight to the enemy, receiving the fight from the enemy, 0:25:44.960 --> 0:25:47.520 and being exposed. And I think also for me, it 0:25:47.600 --> 0:25:50.720 was just amazing to see how professional that selection and 0:25:50.800 --> 0:25:53.960 training process was to be able to then, as you said, 0:25:54.440 --> 0:25:55.359 default to your. 0:25:55.320 --> 0:25:56.040 Level of training. 0:25:56.359 --> 0:25:58.639 I love that people say, you know, in crisis, you 0:25:58.640 --> 0:26:01.200 know you rise to the occasion defaulty level of training 0:26:01.240 --> 0:26:05.000 and experience. And the beast that trained us and put 0:26:05.080 --> 0:26:07.960 us out same same between Australia, the UK and the 0:26:08.080 --> 0:26:10.240 US and all the rest is just so professional and 0:26:10.280 --> 0:26:12.960 what it does, and it helps you to appreciate why 0:26:12.960 --> 0:26:14.879 you went through all of that ship Yeah, to be 0:26:14.920 --> 0:26:16.800 where you're at and then be tested, Yeah, because you. 0:26:16.840 --> 0:26:19.280 Question it sometimes why am I going through this? And 0:26:19.320 --> 0:26:22.040 it all makes sense when and when things are harder, 0:26:22.080 --> 0:26:25.240 when things are you know, out of your control, where 0:26:25.280 --> 0:26:27.320 you have to adapt, you have to improvite, you have 0:26:27.400 --> 0:26:30.000 to overcome, you have to use each other. We sort 0:26:30.000 --> 0:26:33.119 of operated and functioned through the Golden Days, you know 0:26:33.160 --> 0:26:36.159 when you know it's like training on the on the football, 0:26:36.160 --> 0:26:37.960 which you trained because you want to want to perform 0:26:38.000 --> 0:26:40.160 in the cup final, you know, you want to. We 0:26:40.160 --> 0:26:42.639 were like, right, this is what I've trained, this is 0:26:42.640 --> 0:26:44.920 what the government spent millions on us for. This is 0:26:44.960 --> 0:26:47.800 what we need to do. And I do call it 0:26:47.840 --> 0:26:51.399 the Golden Days because you know, Afghanistan was kinetic. You know, 0:26:51.720 --> 0:26:54.480 you joined the military, you joined the Special Forces, knowing 0:26:54.520 --> 0:26:56.280 that you're going to do back to back tours in 0:26:56.520 --> 0:26:58.360 the Middle East. You're going to you know, that's that's 0:26:58.359 --> 0:27:00.000 where you're going to live the majority of your life. 0:27:00.080 --> 0:27:02.040 And then you're going to go on rotation. You're going 0:27:02.040 --> 0:27:04.640 to go and cross train with the Aussies, the Americans, 0:27:04.720 --> 0:27:07.800 the Kiwis. You know, but you knew that you'd be 0:27:07.840 --> 0:27:13.240 constantly busy. When was your first tour of Afghanistan with 0:27:14.320 --> 0:27:18.040 in the Special Forces, with a body of individuals under 0:27:18.040 --> 0:27:18.520 your command. 0:27:18.680 --> 0:27:20.640 Yeah, so twenty twelve was my. 0:27:22.280 --> 0:27:25.080 Platoon kinetic operation as a part of the Special Operations 0:27:25.119 --> 0:27:28.399 Task Group. My first deployment, I took our first female 0:27:28.400 --> 0:27:32.879 Prime minister over there on a PSDAL security office. That 0:27:32.960 --> 0:27:35.159 was fascinating, good to see some of the insights. But 0:27:35.200 --> 0:27:38.600 the first proper kinetic operation. We were really professional the 0:27:38.640 --> 0:27:40.560 way in which we rotated in and out as well. 0:27:40.640 --> 0:27:42.720 I actually did a pre deployment where I went and 0:27:42.840 --> 0:27:46.200 embedded with the company and platoon that was over there 0:27:46.240 --> 0:27:48.679 for two weeks and did some missions, came back and 0:27:48.720 --> 0:27:51.600 helped run our mission rehearsal exercises, and then we deployed 0:27:52.000 --> 0:27:53.440 and deployed for five months in. 0:27:53.680 --> 0:27:54.560 So you've got that crossover. 0:27:54.680 --> 0:27:57.160 So it's the latest TTP. 0:27:57.640 --> 0:28:00.000 You can imagine everything from the technology that we're in 0:28:00.080 --> 0:28:02.960 plowing from the assets in the sky through to By 0:28:03.000 --> 0:28:06.000 that stage, we were partnering with the Drug Enforcement Administration, 0:28:06.119 --> 0:28:08.320 the DEA guys from the US to go into Helman 0:28:08.400 --> 0:28:11.119 and blow up opium labs and track the money that 0:28:11.240 --> 0:28:12.040 was funding terrors. 0:28:12.800 --> 0:28:15.080 Yeah yeah, yeah. Who's the Golden. 0:28:15.040 --> 0:28:17.679 Where they're big with a big silver you know the 0:28:17.800 --> 0:28:19.919 pits and the silver trades where they used to do 0:28:20.080 --> 0:28:21.000 the cook all. 0:28:20.920 --> 0:28:24.840 There, and they had these giant presses and just the 0:28:24.880 --> 0:28:29.200 different even the because unfortunately being Australian. We never had 0:28:29.200 --> 0:28:32.040 any of our own aircraft of helicopters there. So just 0:28:32.119 --> 0:28:34.800 even going over there and learning who were the battlespace owners, 0:28:34.840 --> 0:28:36.560 who owned the assets, who you had to take a 0:28:36.600 --> 0:28:38.240 cartn of red bulls to if you need an extra 0:28:38.400 --> 0:28:41.080 patch that yeah, yeah, yeah, and you and I laughed. 0:28:41.120 --> 0:28:44.880 But literally of a quiet military assets through Australian Fresh 0:28:44.880 --> 0:28:47.320 cream milk and red bulls and Fanta for the local 0:28:47.320 --> 0:28:48.000 partner force. 0:28:48.520 --> 0:28:48.840 But yeah. 0:28:49.320 --> 0:28:55.040 July twenty twelve deployed based in Tarran count and immediately 0:28:55.040 --> 0:28:57.440 commenced two lines of operation. One was sort of counter 0:28:57.560 --> 0:29:01.040 leadership and insurgents within Uruzgan and Candor and then the 0:29:01.040 --> 0:29:05.320 counter drugs working with the DEA guys into Helmond. And 0:29:05.480 --> 0:29:10.400 during that five months sixty seven missions. I don't like 0:29:10.440 --> 0:29:12.600 it as a measurement, but we killed one hundred and 0:29:12.640 --> 0:29:15.360 seventeen sergeants, captured so many more, and I lost one 0:29:15.400 --> 0:29:17.960 of my best soldiers, Corporal Scott Smith, who was killed 0:29:18.320 --> 0:29:20.440 by an ID on the twenty first of October. 0:29:21.040 --> 0:29:24.120 Do you remember that day? And can you recall that 0:29:24.200 --> 0:29:25.000 day massively? 0:29:25.040 --> 0:29:28.040 It was so we had been sent to conduct a 0:29:28.120 --> 0:29:32.760 three day clearance partnered with the United States Marine Corps. 0:29:33.000 --> 0:29:35.680 They were the battlefield commander of that area of Keshmesh 0:29:35.760 --> 0:29:39.520 Khan up near the Kajaki Fan and they wanted to 0:29:39.560 --> 0:29:43.160 do a clearance and we partnered with a troop of tanks. 0:29:43.160 --> 0:29:45.360 Michel Toombe partnered with a troop of m one Abrams 0:29:45.360 --> 0:29:47.840 tanks from the US Marine Corps and we did a 0:29:47.840 --> 0:29:51.600 three day rather conventional clearance from west to east. And 0:29:51.640 --> 0:29:54.400 it was on the morning of the second day where 0:29:54.600 --> 0:29:56.600 I push one of my teams up into this building 0:29:56.600 --> 0:29:59.959 that was firing on our company headquarters. There's correz system, 0:30:00.120 --> 0:30:03.080 so giant wells cut into the ground that's got the 0:30:03.120 --> 0:30:07.280 waterway underneath. You'd have insurgents going through those waterways popping 0:30:07.360 --> 0:30:10.640 up with RPG shooting at the tanks. We're uncovering massive 0:30:10.680 --> 0:30:13.200 cases of rockets, mortars. 0:30:13.240 --> 0:30:14.400 Weapons and all the rest. 0:30:14.600 --> 0:30:18.320 Yeah, And the biggest one was because we had the tanks, 0:30:18.360 --> 0:30:20.600 they just set out put these IEDs everywhere, and I 0:30:20.680 --> 0:30:23.960 remember we'd literally start jumping on the tanks to travel 0:30:24.080 --> 0:30:26.680 even fifty meters between two compounds, and he'd just be 0:30:27.040 --> 0:30:29.760 popping as his loads are going off underneath you. 0:30:29.840 --> 0:30:30.800 It was pretty incredible. 0:30:30.880 --> 0:30:34.120 On that second morning pushed my team up to clear 0:30:34.200 --> 0:30:38.040 this compound, so big mud bricked wall compound where insurgents 0:30:38.040 --> 0:30:41.560 were firing at our company headquarter element. They cleared that 0:30:41.640 --> 0:30:45.320 compound but immediately found hundreds of components that would be 0:30:45.400 --> 0:30:48.760 made used to make IEDs. And Scott was the special 0:30:48.800 --> 0:30:52.080 operations engineer attached to that team. I had a team 0:30:52.120 --> 0:30:55.520 a section attached to my platoon and he immediately identified 0:30:56.040 --> 0:30:59.000 there were issues and he pushed his point man back 0:30:59.040 --> 0:31:02.400 while he went and cleared this doorway and there was 0:31:02.400 --> 0:31:05.520 a zero metal content pressure plate that immediately detonated and 0:31:06.240 --> 0:31:08.280 killed him and blew him over about three hundred meters 0:31:08.520 --> 0:31:11.960 worth of worth of span from you know, a limb 0:31:12.000 --> 0:31:14.160 through to a five cent piece of him. And as 0:31:14.240 --> 0:31:16.680 you would know mate straight away, that giant plume of 0:31:16.760 --> 0:31:19.960 dust and smoke was a giant signal for every insurgent 0:31:20.440 --> 0:31:22.800 in the region and then come and try and drive 0:31:22.960 --> 0:31:25.640 their advantage. And it's still one of the most inspiring 0:31:26.280 --> 0:31:29.080 days to me and I love reflecting on it, for 0:31:29.680 --> 0:31:31.600 it was terrible, but it was so tremendous in what 0:31:31.640 --> 0:31:34.320 it taught me about, like that true human spirit. In Australia, 0:31:34.360 --> 0:31:37.560 we talked about the ANZAC spirit where my guy straight away? 0:31:37.600 --> 0:31:39.760 You know, we were I remember looking around and the 0:31:39.800 --> 0:31:40.680 guys were up. 0:31:40.640 --> 0:31:42.240 So where were you at this stage? 0:31:42.360 --> 0:31:44.280 I was about four hundred meters back. And then I 0:31:44.320 --> 0:31:47.400 had the call that there'd been an AD strike and 0:31:47.880 --> 0:31:51.040 they read out his call sign was KA, and I 0:31:51.120 --> 0:31:54.680 called over the nearest tank, grabbed my headquarters, jumped on 0:31:54.720 --> 0:31:56.840 the tank and just said drive straight for that compound. 0:31:56.880 --> 0:31:58.680 I could see the plume of dust, yeah, of course, 0:31:58.760 --> 0:32:00.280 and then turn up and then just went out into 0:32:00.880 --> 0:32:02.920 went into action mode like we were under an attack. 0:32:02.960 --> 0:32:04.840 As soon as we got there. We got the. 0:32:04.800 --> 0:32:08.840 Tank to drive from that compound in a straight line 0:32:08.880 --> 0:32:11.680 and punched a hole through the three meter high wall 0:32:11.720 --> 0:32:14.840 in the next compound, started moving the partner force along 0:32:14.920 --> 0:32:18.520 the track that the tank had made. With the track 0:32:18.560 --> 0:32:21.880 moving along, so we knew that was ied cleared. Got 0:32:22.000 --> 0:32:24.680 absolutely pizzled moving between those two buildings. We still got 0:32:24.680 --> 0:32:28.120 them through and then started trying to coordinate one establishing 0:32:28.120 --> 0:32:31.040 a defensive perimeter, pulled the tanks up onto points. Also 0:32:31.120 --> 0:32:34.120 had other marines with, you know, like the Mark nineteen 0:32:34.200 --> 0:32:37.280 grenade launchers fifty gals and they had my guys in 0:32:37.400 --> 0:32:40.520 roots cutting holes in the walls to fire out of, 0:32:41.080 --> 0:32:43.920 and while half the platoon established that position and we 0:32:44.000 --> 0:32:47.480 won sort of that initial initiative and took it back, 0:32:48.200 --> 0:32:50.360 had some harriers come in, had some apaches come in. 0:32:50.400 --> 0:32:53.240 Everyone wanted to help. Everyone had wanted to come and help, 0:32:53.240 --> 0:32:54.800 but I was kind of like, hey, like we can't. 0:32:54.840 --> 0:32:58.720 Everything was so close to us, and the terrain is 0:32:58.760 --> 0:33:01.640 that complicated. That lasting needed was to get in trouble 0:33:01.720 --> 0:33:04.760 legally as well. And then I remember looking up seeing 0:33:04.760 --> 0:33:07.200 everyone fighting, doing their job, and then watching you know, 0:33:07.240 --> 0:33:09.959 the other half of my platoon, big burly tattooed men 0:33:10.560 --> 0:33:12.560 on hands and knees, you know, for two and a 0:33:12.600 --> 0:33:15.160 half hours picking up the smallest pieces of Scott to 0:33:15.200 --> 0:33:17.480 put into these bags so we could put him on 0:33:17.480 --> 0:33:19.520 the helicopter to get him out of there. And it 0:33:19.560 --> 0:33:23.120 was just so inspiring seeing that juxtaposition of you know 0:33:23.200 --> 0:33:26.160 that the brutality of war and warriors doing their job, 0:33:26.240 --> 0:33:29.440 and then just the care and love and affection the 0:33:29.480 --> 0:33:31.240 guys had trying to make sure we got all of 0:33:31.280 --> 0:33:32.680 Scott to send him home. 0:33:33.160 --> 0:33:35.760 And yeah, that was pretty it was pretty incredible. 0:33:35.800 --> 0:33:38.200 It was my job to then carry him back to 0:33:38.360 --> 0:33:41.600 the company Sergeant major who then put him on a 0:33:41.600 --> 0:33:43.880 helicopter and took him home, and then we spent the 0:33:43.960 --> 0:33:47.040 next two days fighting on to finish the mission. And 0:33:47.040 --> 0:33:50.120 I'm sure you can imagine the one of my favorite 0:33:50.160 --> 0:33:54.040 pictures on my desk at home is I called in 0:33:54.120 --> 0:33:57.040 the team commanders after went back to the company, dropped 0:33:57.040 --> 0:34:00.320 Scott off and just got them around the map, pull 0:34:00.360 --> 0:34:02.920 out a knife. One of my commanders, one of my 0:34:02.960 --> 0:34:05.840 second commanders, put grenades to hold the map down just 0:34:05.880 --> 0:34:08.680 for the picture point of view, but just briefed everyone 0:34:08.760 --> 0:34:12.240 on the mission. Old school, no powerpoints, no gadget's nothing, 0:34:12.960 --> 0:34:15.960 you know, the situation, mission execution, having logistics command and 0:34:15.960 --> 0:34:19.200 sig hey, we got a new purpose to honor Scott's death, 0:34:19.640 --> 0:34:21.600 not to take revenge, but to find on you know, 0:34:21.680 --> 0:34:24.640 so he would be proud of this mission and those 0:34:24.680 --> 0:34:28.160 three days while we lost Scott. And it's still painful 0:34:28.200 --> 0:34:32.640 to remember that just forged a new level of matship 0:34:32.640 --> 0:34:35.400 and team solid. I've never been able. 0:34:35.280 --> 0:34:38.080 To replicate it again in my Yeah yeah, and. 0:34:38.080 --> 0:34:47.960 Still stands and still inspires to this day. 0:34:49.880 --> 0:34:54.120 How hard is it not to seek revenge or not 0:34:54.239 --> 0:34:57.960 to let that revenge mindset sort of come into play, 0:34:58.000 --> 0:35:04.160 because yeah, it's a negative sort of emotion sets. It 0:35:04.200 --> 0:35:07.239 can lead to a negative outcome, to negative decisions, to 0:35:07.440 --> 0:35:09.880 bad decisions. And how hard is it to keep that 0:35:09.960 --> 0:35:13.080 obey knowing that one of your men, you know, had 0:35:13.120 --> 0:35:13.880 just been blown up. 0:35:14.120 --> 0:35:17.640 Great question, mate, really great question, and particularly in that 0:35:17.719 --> 0:35:21.040 context where you don't have someone to blame. It's a 0:35:21.080 --> 0:35:24.440 bomb under the ground, so every insurgent is to blame. 0:35:25.040 --> 0:35:30.680 And being aware, I think a big thing that the 0:35:30.719 --> 0:35:32.839 selection course teaches us is to be aware of our 0:35:32.880 --> 0:35:35.000 emotions and not let them control us. And I just 0:35:35.040 --> 0:35:38.960 remember all of the emotions you spoke up, came over me, 0:35:39.160 --> 0:35:42.520 came over my guys, and I think straight away it's 0:35:42.520 --> 0:35:46.879 that relationship you have going into those crisis situations where 0:35:46.880 --> 0:35:49.359 you can read those in each other and have those 0:35:49.480 --> 0:35:52.080 upfront conversations. And particularly for me, it was using that 0:35:52.239 --> 0:35:55.160 orders group to refocus that energy into the mission and 0:35:55.200 --> 0:35:57.640 not into whatever anyone was driving in their own heart, 0:35:57.719 --> 0:36:00.880 and talk about the importance of why we're there and 0:36:00.920 --> 0:36:04.160 the long lasting impacts of what our next actions would have. 0:36:04.640 --> 0:36:05.520 Because it's so easy. 0:36:05.560 --> 0:36:07.440 You're out there in the middle of nowhere, you are 0:36:07.520 --> 0:36:09.640 the masters of your own universe. I could call in 0:36:09.680 --> 0:36:12.239 the finger of God and give my initials to give 0:36:12.239 --> 0:36:15.960 the approvals. You know, you could completely be unaccountable to 0:36:15.960 --> 0:36:20.080 anyone else, but it was the true test of service 0:36:20.120 --> 0:36:22.879 and those values as to while you were there that 0:36:23.080 --> 0:36:26.240 you had to display and dig into. And I honestly 0:36:26.280 --> 0:36:28.360 think it's everything that leads you up to that process, 0:36:28.680 --> 0:36:30.879 being selected, working with a team, and all the rest 0:36:30.920 --> 0:36:34.040 that just really make sure you're the right person to 0:36:34.120 --> 0:36:37.080 go through those situations. But one hundred percent, it's a 0:36:37.080 --> 0:36:39.839 team effort and you no, Maad only takes a few 0:36:39.880 --> 0:36:42.120 bad eggs or a few bad influences to help it 0:36:42.200 --> 0:36:45.120 go the other way. But fortunately in that situation, we're 0:36:45.160 --> 0:36:48.200 able to channel that energy for the positive purpose that 0:36:48.239 --> 0:36:48.799 we still had. 0:36:49.200 --> 0:36:51.840 What did it feel like as an officer? Yeah too, 0:36:52.920 --> 0:36:56.080 And it's different for us. I suppose it's the same. 0:36:56.120 --> 0:36:59.160 But you know, was it like as an officer to 0:36:59.400 --> 0:37:06.600 lose one of your men on a mission that you 0:37:06.680 --> 0:37:07.160 were leading? 0:37:07.360 --> 0:37:11.800 Yeah, I remember struggling with emotions of shame, embarrassment exactly 0:37:11.800 --> 0:37:14.799 as you said, like, this is my mission I'm responsible 0:37:14.840 --> 0:37:16.600 for at the end of the day, good or bad, 0:37:17.080 --> 0:37:19.480 and I had lost one of my soldiers and it's 0:37:19.520 --> 0:37:22.160 not a name on a piece of paper. You know, 0:37:22.160 --> 0:37:23.680 he had a mum, he had a sister, you know 0:37:23.719 --> 0:37:25.640 he has a nephew, all these sorts of things, and 0:37:26.280 --> 0:37:31.320 it's really difficult to you almost feel selfish thinking about 0:37:32.440 --> 0:37:36.400 the sorrowful parts that impact you on your professional career 0:37:36.480 --> 0:37:39.360 on all the rest. And I think it's just having 0:37:39.400 --> 0:37:42.480 to again what I'm good at doing in a pragmatic way, 0:37:42.560 --> 0:37:45.080 putting the mission and team before yourself, like it's not 0:37:45.160 --> 0:37:47.960 about me. If the shoe had been on the other 0:37:48.000 --> 0:37:50.399 foot and it was me, I know that I would 0:37:50.400 --> 0:37:51.960 have died doing what I wanted to do, and I 0:37:52.000 --> 0:37:53.880 knew that's exactly what he did as well. So I 0:37:53.920 --> 0:37:57.080 think it's really going through a very pragmatic process to 0:37:57.520 --> 0:38:01.080 understand and appreciate the emotions you're having, but to again 0:38:01.160 --> 0:38:08.320 remove yourself from the attachment. Yeah, and it's difficult, especially 0:38:08.920 --> 0:38:11.120 it's a pretty hyper experience to learn it for the 0:38:11.120 --> 0:38:13.560 first time. But I was just so fascinated to feel 0:38:13.600 --> 0:38:16.920 those emotions of shame and embarrassment and feel like I 0:38:16.960 --> 0:38:20.359 had failed in some way tactically and perhaps break through 0:38:20.400 --> 0:38:23.120 some of that delusion whereas to thinking that I could 0:38:23.120 --> 0:38:26.960 perfectly orchestrate warfare like it was a written script. 0:38:27.520 --> 0:38:31.239 Was there ever a moment for you where you you know, 0:38:31.760 --> 0:38:35.160 you know, I suppose combat fatigued, so it kicks in 0:38:35.200 --> 0:38:38.560 and you think, you know, I need to hand over 0:38:38.560 --> 0:38:39.000 the torch. 0:38:39.360 --> 0:38:40.720 Yeah, I loved it. 0:38:42.400 --> 0:38:45.560 Maslow's hierarchy of needs, that self actualized version of myself 0:38:45.600 --> 0:38:49.320 achieving flow in combat, being so in the moment, immersed 0:38:49.320 --> 0:38:51.879 and with a team and tribe that I just felt 0:38:51.920 --> 0:38:53.759 so a part of I would go back and do 0:38:53.840 --> 0:38:57.279 that tomorrow with the right people, for the right purpose. Unfortunately, 0:38:57.680 --> 0:38:59.600 probably like yourself, I've since been able to look a 0:38:59.600 --> 0:39:02.799 lot at the wars we fought and perhaps why we 0:39:02.800 --> 0:39:07.040 were there and all the rest. But for me, my 0:39:07.200 --> 0:39:10.880 reason to end up leaving the military actually came from 0:39:11.160 --> 0:39:13.279 a lot of reasons of the heart and head. 0:39:13.800 --> 0:39:16.840 I fell in love with someone, and. 0:39:17.040 --> 0:39:20.480 I wasn't sure how to mesh my personal life with 0:39:20.520 --> 0:39:21.719 my professional life. 0:39:21.960 --> 0:39:26.240 We fell in love with someone from work outside. 0:39:25.880 --> 0:39:29.320 In America, and one year I went to the Rangers. 0:39:29.600 --> 0:39:29.839 Yeah. 0:39:29.960 --> 0:39:32.560 I sort of kept myself in the closets sexually throughout 0:39:32.600 --> 0:39:35.000 my entire career, and in the US I actually got 0:39:35.000 --> 0:39:37.919 to meet professional gay men I didn't know who were gay. 0:39:38.040 --> 0:39:40.640 I did own it as their identity, and I've got 0:39:40.719 --> 0:39:43.680 to figure out, hey, I can actually still be Heston Russell, 0:39:43.719 --> 0:39:46.080 the commander officer and whoever I want to be in 0:39:46.120 --> 0:39:50.000 my personal life. But yeah, my last apployment to Iraq, 0:39:50.080 --> 0:39:51.799 or we helped to take the fight to isis one 0:39:51.800 --> 0:39:54.480 of the most incredible deployments and missions I've ever been 0:39:54.520 --> 0:39:56.840 a part of. He was back in la and it 0:39:56.920 --> 0:39:59.200 is the first time I've been deployed with someone back 0:39:59.200 --> 0:40:02.280 at home. And at the same time, I was deployed 0:40:02.320 --> 0:40:04.560 with the general who was going to come back and 0:40:04.600 --> 0:40:07.080 be the next commander of our special operations. He'd come 0:40:07.080 --> 0:40:10.319 from a very conventional career and in his mindset he 0:40:10.360 --> 0:40:14.160 needed to get us back to haircuts, ironing uniforms, being 0:40:14.160 --> 0:40:17.520 the Special Forces Brigade just refused to listen to any 0:40:17.560 --> 0:40:20.600 of the experience that we had around him. And my 0:40:20.719 --> 0:40:23.040 next position mate was to start climbing the ranks to 0:40:23.120 --> 0:40:25.400 lieutenant colone or going down the Canberra move on to 0:40:25.440 --> 0:40:28.160 a career that was away from the guys and the teams, 0:40:28.200 --> 0:40:30.320 and I wanted to be a part of. So those 0:40:30.320 --> 0:40:32.760 three combined, I took my long service leave. I followed 0:40:32.760 --> 0:40:35.279 my heart moved to the US to be with my 0:40:36.080 --> 0:40:38.800 boyfriend at the time, and so I said about for 0:40:38.920 --> 0:40:39.960 wing a new life from there. 0:40:40.640 --> 0:40:41.799 Wow, they're right. 0:40:41.960 --> 0:40:49.160 Wow, it was segue different, different, And throughout your whole 0:40:49.200 --> 0:40:52.279 career were you always in the closet? Where was it? 0:40:52.320 --> 0:40:54.440 Did it affect your work, did it affect who you 0:40:54.520 --> 0:40:56.600 were or did you just think? Or did you just were? 0:40:56.600 --> 0:40:59.520 You very good at compartmentalizing, separating. 0:40:59.080 --> 0:41:04.360 The team developed this, there's different personality, Mike the pe teacher. 0:41:07.760 --> 0:41:09.080 I think we need another hour. 0:41:11.239 --> 0:41:14.840 I was able to compartmentalize and separate, and look again, 0:41:15.000 --> 0:41:16.759 you can imagine how hard it is for me on 0:41:16.800 --> 0:41:21.279 the outside trying to explain military culture to you know, 0:41:21.280 --> 0:41:25.880 the LGBT IQO plus community and vice versa. The culture 0:41:26.120 --> 0:41:29.160 service admission before self to a culture that's all about 0:41:30.320 --> 0:41:32.920 being seen and being heard, and like, I get it 0:41:32.920 --> 0:41:37.000 for those reasons, but I got to a place where 0:41:37.080 --> 0:41:39.840 I didn't need to be recognized or accepted for my 0:41:39.880 --> 0:41:42.840 sexuality because it meant nothing to what I truly loved. 0:41:43.239 --> 0:41:45.440 That was my mission and that was my job, and 0:41:45.520 --> 0:41:47.560 I didn't know how to mesh the two together, so 0:41:47.600 --> 0:41:50.520 I kept them completely separate. I also didn't know what 0:41:50.640 --> 0:41:53.040 gay was. I was brought up in a very conservative 0:41:53.360 --> 0:41:56.120 family up in Brisbane. When I moved down to Sydney 0:41:56.120 --> 0:41:58.399 and joined the Commandos, the first insight to the gay 0:41:58.440 --> 0:42:00.720 world I saw was middrift and drag queens on Oxford 0:42:00.719 --> 0:42:02.360 Street and scared the shit out of me because I 0:42:02.360 --> 0:42:06.520 didn't see there wasn't another there was another gay Special 0:42:06.520 --> 0:42:09.399 Forces person that I knew of, and there hasn't been 0:42:09.560 --> 0:42:12.319 again in the Australian military publicly, not that they need 0:42:12.360 --> 0:42:14.040 to be at all. So I just didn't know what 0:42:14.080 --> 0:42:16.319 I didn't know, and I was too afraid to be 0:42:16.400 --> 0:42:18.319 the first, and I was too afraid for it to 0:42:18.400 --> 0:42:23.440 potentially impact any form of stigmas or stereotypes within the 0:42:23.480 --> 0:42:25.879 guys within the unit. Like this was two thousand and 0:42:25.920 --> 0:42:28.480 ten to twenty fifteen, before the gay marriage vote, before 0:42:28.520 --> 0:42:30.200 all this, and as you would know, mate, it actually 0:42:30.280 --> 0:42:33.000 doesn't matter, and the guys since have reinforced it so much. 0:42:33.560 --> 0:42:36.319 But as the officer, as the commander, as a member 0:42:36.320 --> 0:42:38.880 of the Special Forces, there was nothing I wanted to 0:42:38.880 --> 0:42:43.960 introduce into the mixture of our social engagement and environment 0:42:44.000 --> 0:42:47.560 in the workplace. To do that was even more uncertain 0:42:47.600 --> 0:42:49.880 than what we had to deal with. So I chose 0:42:49.920 --> 0:42:52.440 to put my sexuality on the back foot. I was 0:42:52.520 --> 0:42:55.600 more than happy with that. I never had relationships and 0:42:55.600 --> 0:42:57.959 all the rest till I met Blake. And then again 0:42:58.000 --> 0:43:00.520 there was that natural divide where hey, I'm done with 0:43:00.560 --> 0:43:03.200 this and it's time to explore this love thing that 0:43:03.239 --> 0:43:04.200 I've never felt before. 0:43:06.000 --> 0:43:09.680 Do you think anyone new? Do you think anyone. 0:43:10.640 --> 0:43:13.200 I delay? I delayed telling my daddy here and he 0:43:13.239 --> 0:43:18.719 reckons he knew. But did your dad say he didn't? Yeah, 0:43:18.880 --> 0:43:20.799 he found out here after mom and sister. 0:43:22.200 --> 0:43:24.880 But no, And it's not that I prided myself on that. 0:43:24.960 --> 0:43:27.080 I just love and I still love it today. Where 0:43:27.520 --> 0:43:30.279 people know me it's Heston Russell, not as any of 0:43:30.280 --> 0:43:32.920 these other labels in between, because that's what I feel 0:43:32.920 --> 0:43:34.880 we have to aspire from. That's where I feel we're 0:43:34.880 --> 0:43:37.520 getting wrong in society. Like I'm gay, you have to 0:43:37.520 --> 0:43:39.040 accept me. I'm a veteran, you have to accept me. 0:43:39.120 --> 0:43:41.759 No one ever will mate. It's how you perform in 0:43:41.800 --> 0:43:44.760 yourself and treat others like your name is your label. 0:43:44.840 --> 0:43:47.279 And that's why I fought so hard to grasp for 0:43:47.360 --> 0:43:49.200 myself and encourage others to do as well. 0:43:49.719 --> 0:43:51.920 Or Mate You've done a phenomenal job in doing that, 0:43:52.040 --> 0:43:55.480 absolutely phenomenal and sat opposite you. May you know it's 0:43:55.719 --> 0:43:59.279 it's been an absolute pleasure and there's so much more 0:43:59.320 --> 0:44:01.759 to say. Do you know what You're gonna have to 0:44:01.800 --> 0:44:05.600 get Heston's book? Just remind us of the name of your. 0:44:05.480 --> 0:44:07.000 Book, Forging the Will to Fight. 0:44:07.120 --> 0:44:09.359 It's all my web Forging the Will to Fight? Yeah, 0:44:09.480 --> 0:44:11.040 Ford on your website? What's your website? 0:44:11.080 --> 0:44:12.560 Heston Russell dot com. 0:44:12.280 --> 0:44:15.000 Heston Russell dot com Forging the Will to Fight? You 0:44:15.040 --> 0:44:19.000 can go a lot more into depth by getting Heston's book. 0:44:19.040 --> 0:44:21.160 But mate, you've been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. 0:44:21.360 --> 0:44:23.840 Mate of reminisces. I think I've talked more about myself 0:44:23.840 --> 0:44:25.720 than I have about ye know more. 0:44:25.560 --> 0:44:27.360 About you, mate, everything We know a lot about you. 0:44:27.360 --> 0:44:29.279 There's so many more layers to be seen. Yeah, do 0:44:29.280 --> 0:44:29.440 you know? 0:44:29.520 --> 0:44:31.600 It's like everyone right, there's so much more layers to 0:44:31.600 --> 0:44:34.799 be seen. There's so much more you know of us 0:44:34.840 --> 0:44:37.520 than than people know. But mate, it's an absolute pleasure 0:44:37.560 --> 0:44:39.719 to get to know you within the short hour that 0:44:39.760 --> 0:44:42.120 I've got you. What is next for you? Heston? 0:44:43.000 --> 0:44:45.480 The book launch made, It's been four years in the making, 0:44:45.640 --> 0:44:48.120 and I'm really looking forward to getting that out and 0:44:48.560 --> 0:44:50.520 I'm trying to get myself back into I run an 0:44:50.520 --> 0:44:52.640 event once a year called the Veteran Games through my 0:44:52.719 --> 0:44:55.799 charity and building that it's in its third year Veterangames 0:44:55.800 --> 0:44:58.560 dot Com. Trying to get guys who are isolated out 0:44:58.560 --> 0:45:00.560 there and at the biggest risk of mental health off together, 0:45:01.080 --> 0:45:04.200 doing obstacle courses, doing casual evacuations, doing all the team 0:45:04.280 --> 0:45:07.239 stuff we used to do, and then myself getting back 0:45:07.280 --> 0:45:09.840 into some corporate speaking and just helping to spread the 0:45:09.880 --> 0:45:12.319 good word mate, much like you do out there, and 0:45:12.360 --> 0:45:14.400 trying to just be the best version of me I 0:45:14.440 --> 0:45:17.960 can outside of that amazing purpose and environment we have 0:45:18.000 --> 0:45:19.240 with motivation in service. 0:45:19.760 --> 0:45:21.760 That was a pretty good version mate. It's a pretty 0:45:21.760 --> 0:45:23.360 good version of a right. 0:45:23.200 --> 0:45:26.440 Now better inspiration out there in the community. 0:45:26.440 --> 0:45:27.960 I want to thank you for your service and what 0:45:28.000 --> 0:45:30.200 you do, particular here in Australia. It's great to see 0:45:30.600 --> 0:45:32.439 a brick come over here and do what you do, mate, 0:45:32.440 --> 0:45:34.160 and break through so many of the stigmas as well, 0:45:34.239 --> 0:45:34.920 so I appreciate it. 0:45:35.040 --> 0:45:36.839 You know what, mate, if you need any help, will 0:45:36.880 --> 0:45:39.200 fucking help out in any way with your events. Let 0:45:39.200 --> 0:45:40.960 me know we'll do pleasure mate. Thank you. 0:45:41.000 --> 0:45:41.640 Thanks Anne. 0:45:44.440 --> 0:45:47.680 As you've heard, Heston's book, Forging the Will to Fight 0:45:47.840 --> 0:45:51.120 is available now via his website. You can also check 0:45:51.160 --> 0:45:56.040 out Heston's podcast, The ABC's of Heston Russell. I'll put 0:45:56.080 --> 0:45:58.960 it in the show notes and don't forget if you 0:45:59.040 --> 0:46:04.600 need help. Also, you can contact Lifeline on thirteen eleven 0:46:05.080 --> 0:46:10.320 fourteen or Beyond Blue at beyond blue dot org dot AU. 0:46:11.239 --> 0:46:15.759 ADF personnel can also access confidential support our link the 0:46:15.840 --> 0:46:19.120 details in the show notes. Thank you for joining me 0:46:19.200 --> 0:46:22.680 on this episode of Headgame. If you enjoyed this episode, 0:46:23.000 --> 0:46:26.839 please share it with a friend. I'm at Middleton. Catch 0:46:26.920 --> 0:46:32.880 you in the next episode.