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Speaker 1: This episode of Headgame was recorded on gadigal Land.

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Speaker 2: It's October twenty first, twenty twelve. Heston Russell leads his

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Speaker 2: team through combat operations in Afghanistan. It's his third deployment

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Speaker 2: with the Special Forces, but his first as the commander

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Speaker 2: of the November Platoon. He has more than fifty successful

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Speaker 2: missions under his belt. Despite precise planning and carefully sequence maneuvers,

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Speaker 2: one of the soldiers under Heston's command dies during an operation.

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Speaker 2: Twenty four year old Corporal Scott Smith is killed instantly

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Speaker 2: when an ID explodes during a mission to target insurgeons

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Speaker 2: in Afghanistan's Uazgan Province. For Heston, Corporal Smith is the

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Speaker 2: first and would be the only soldier lost under his command,

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Speaker 2: but it's a scar that would remain well into the future.

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Speaker 2: I'm at Middleton and this is Headgame today, fifth Generation

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Speaker 2: Defense Forces veteran Heston Russell on his sixteen years in

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Speaker 2: the Australian Army and the battle that's followed him from

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Speaker 2: the front line. Now, Heston, I'm going to rattle through quickly. Hesson,

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Speaker 2: you spent sixteen years in the military, joining at the

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Speaker 2: age of seventeen, going on to complete more than one

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Speaker 2: hundred combat missions. Your dad served twenty years in the Army.

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Speaker 2: Your grandfather, your mom's dad, fought in Career and Vietnam Wars.

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Speaker 2: Your great grandfather also served during World War II, and

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Speaker 2: his great great grandfather fought on the Western Front during

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Speaker 2: World War One. Being gassed twice during the previous two

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Speaker 2: years of combat in France. You deployed four times to

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Speaker 2: Afghanistan and the Middle East. Served in Iraq as the

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Speaker 2: Special Operations Joint Planner within the Special Operations Joint Task Force.

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Speaker 2: You've done multiple counter terrorist operations within Australia and the

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Speaker 2: Asia Pacific region, a year long exchange within the United

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Speaker 2: States Special Operations Command. Wow, I thought that I had

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Speaker 2: a versatile career in the military. You, my man, absolutely

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Speaker 2: blow me out the water. It seems like that you

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Speaker 2: were engulfed as a youngster with this sort of military family,

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Speaker 2: this military environment, military order. What was it like growing

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Speaker 2: up and when did you realize that you were encapsulated

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Speaker 2: by military heroes that you know that was bred into

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Speaker 2: your family.

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Speaker 1: Oh and first and foremost thanks having me on.

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Speaker 3: Well done a rattling all that off for one of

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Speaker 3: the few people who would probably know most of those

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Speaker 3: acronyms and all the rest. I grew up with the

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Speaker 3: military influence from my dad and living within that military family,

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Speaker 3: moving around the country. But as far as my grandfather,

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Speaker 3: I knew my grandfather Mum's dad as a fisherman. I

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Speaker 3: didn't know about his service in Korea or in Vietnam.

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Speaker 1: He was a gentleman.

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Speaker 3: He was a ballroom dancing champion, something you know a

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Speaker 3: lot about as well.

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Speaker 2: We won't mention my dancing with the stars day wheremen

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Speaker 2: have go into this military mindset, now, gotcha?

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Speaker 3: And yeah, I didn't honestly truly appreciate my lineage until

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Speaker 3: actually more recent years when I started doing some research myself.

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Speaker 3: My passage into the military came simply from seeing my

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Speaker 3: father and his mates and those around him as those

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Speaker 3: sort of aspirational men that were sure masculine and all

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Speaker 3: the traits we see from men in society, but were

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Speaker 3: also caring, nurturing team players, had that heart of service,

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Speaker 3: putting others and the mission before themselves, and I really

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Speaker 3: saw them as very aspirational values and character traits to me,

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Speaker 3: especially during a time when I went through high school.

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Speaker 3: I was the fat kid at high school. I was unpopular.

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Speaker 3: I was probably having he.

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Speaker 2: Sat there with veins whipping through his muscles.

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Speaker 1: Again, never again, never going back, mate.

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Speaker 3: But you know, it's a classic identity piece, and I

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Speaker 3: saw the potential self actualized best version of myself in

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Speaker 3: the military and wanted to at least go through that

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Speaker 3: journey to see what would where it would take me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you say, And I think it's a massively important

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Speaker 2: point where you say, you know, people think that in

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Speaker 2: the military we're just you know, individuals locked away in

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Speaker 2: an armory and the armory is open, and the way

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Speaker 2: we go, we cause destruction everywhere we go. But the

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Speaker 2: compassionate and the empathetic, the loving side of who we

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Speaker 2: are to not only want to serve our friends and

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Speaker 2: our country and ourselves, but to you know, but to

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Speaker 2: serve the people. Yeah, you know, we are there because

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Speaker 2: we care about the people. We want what's best for

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Speaker 2: the people. We want to be able to give them

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Speaker 2: their their blanket of safety or freedom. You know that

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Speaker 2: they sleep under whice we go and prevent terror from

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Speaker 2: coming onto our shores. And there's that huge sort of

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Speaker 2: compassion side to a soldier that is just sort of

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Speaker 2: you know, wiped out that people you know, don't even mention,

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Speaker 2: which you just mentioned, which is huge because again with myself,

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Speaker 2: that was a huge part of you know, going into combat.

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Speaker 2: It's like you're there to preserve life. And I believe

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Speaker 2: that no one has the god given right to take life. However,

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Speaker 2: if you or someone else thinks they have the right

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Speaker 2: to take a life, I will simply deny you that

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Speaker 2: right by taking your life, therefore saving a life. So

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Speaker 2: I always processed it in that way of preserve life,

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Speaker 2: preserve life, preserve life. And when I went into combat

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Speaker 2: like that, it gave me a new sense of a

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Speaker 2: new sense of soldiering. And the one that you just

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Speaker 2: tapped on there, which I think is super important, is

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Speaker 2: the compassionate, the loving, you know, that empathetic side that

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Speaker 2: no one ever sees. And it's interesting that you mentioned

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Speaker 2: that you were brought up around this environment because anyone

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Speaker 2: would think from your background me having reeled off everything

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Speaker 2: that you know, it got you up in the morning

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Speaker 2: doing press ups, you know, do it, you know, which

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Speaker 2: would probably happened. But you know, having that sort of

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Speaker 2: male sort of dominant organization or family unit where it's

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Speaker 2: just hurah, you know, let's get the job done. But

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Speaker 2: Ultimately it is a flip, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, massive. I mean, as you know, mate, being being

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Speaker 3: a soldier, being an officer. So much of it is

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Speaker 3: actually diplomacy, even out in Afghanistan. You know, we were

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Speaker 3: fighting the enemy in and amongst the locals and the

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Speaker 3: villages we went out with our partner force. So much

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Speaker 3: of it was also the information operations piece. You know,

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Speaker 3: you had to deter the insurgents from wanting to ever

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Speaker 3: fight you or our allies again. But you're trying to

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Speaker 3: win over the locals to support you, because when we

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Speaker 3: got on the ground on targets, it was a locals

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Speaker 3: telling us, hey, he's not supposed to be here.

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Speaker 1: He's not supposed to be here.

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Speaker 3: And these are massive parts of the narrative that are

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Speaker 3: missed in the movies, a mist in the news I

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Speaker 3: missed in how much our soldier, sailors and men and

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Speaker 3: women were some of the most incredible diplomats as well

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Speaker 3: as having to flip the switch to be warriors to

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Speaker 3: take and prevent the loss of life in order to

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Speaker 3: save life and achieve the mission.

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Speaker 2: Was there a moment growing up where you just thought

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Speaker 2: or you saw something. You might see some medals or whatever.

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Speaker 2: It may be where you thought, this is what I

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Speaker 2: want to do, I want to join the military or

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Speaker 2: was it just the norm in your household and that

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Speaker 2: was the normal route of progression to take to join

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Speaker 2: the military. How did that come about?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think probably like a lot of veterans, mate,

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Speaker 3: I had a lead scout. I had the son of

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Speaker 3: one of my dad's army buddies. He was about four

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Speaker 3: or five years older than me, and he ended up

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Speaker 3: going to the Australian Defense Force Academy. He got direct

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Speaker 3: posted to the commandos and I think at the age

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Speaker 3: of fifteen, I remember walking into the recruiting office and said,

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Speaker 3: I want to be a commander officer.

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Speaker 2: I want to be lucky.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Argent laughed at me and said, there's a few steps

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Speaker 3: you got to take in between.

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Speaker 1: But that was a straight to.

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Speaker 2: The top mate, Listen, I love it.

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Speaker 1: Means to an end. Everything else in between. Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: was the goal. That was what got me in and

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Speaker 1: I just took me through.

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Speaker 2: And so that there's obviously the basic training you have

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Speaker 2: to go through. What unit did you join, How did

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Speaker 2: basic training look and was it a shock to you

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Speaker 2: or was it what you expected?

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Speaker 1: I joined straight out of school.

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Speaker 3: I was seventeen, having gone to school in Queensland, and

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Speaker 3: I went down to the Defense Force Academy in Camera,

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Speaker 3: which is you do three years there, you study, you

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Speaker 3: do a degree at the same time. Picture a UNI

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Speaker 3: where you'd have your blocks of study throughout the day,

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Speaker 3: but in the morning it's physical training or it's out

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Speaker 3: there in the freezing temperatures doing an hour an hour

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Speaker 3: and a half a drill. Every Friday is a white

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Speaker 3: glove room inspection where you sleep on your floor because

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Speaker 3: you've owned your sheets to such a crisp point that

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Speaker 3: you don't want to sleep on them that night with

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Speaker 3: the hospital corners.

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Speaker 2: Three years mate, not good, goose goose bumps. You're bringing

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Speaker 2: back there the shivers.

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Speaker 1: Still to this day, I feel rebellious if I don't

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Speaker 1: make my bed. But yeah, you know, you're wearing the military.

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Speaker 3: Uniform polyesters every single day, and then when normal universities

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Speaker 3: would go on holidays, you're out bush doing your basic training,

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Speaker 3: doing your sleeping under hootchees and digging pits and patrolling

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Speaker 3: the stuff that handheld drones do these days we had

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Speaker 3: to do back then.

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Speaker 1: So it's three years and you go.

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Speaker 3: Across the hill to the Royal Military College where there's

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Speaker 3: no more civilian academics. It's all military strategy and study.

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Speaker 3: And I absolutely love that. And then it came out promoted.

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Speaker 2: That's where it starts to get meet to you, right,

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Speaker 2: that's when the two worlds I supposed start to separate, really,

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Speaker 2: you know, from society to really engulf in yourself.

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Speaker 1: Really well put yeah, yeah, absolutely into the military.

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Speaker 3: And particularly for me wanting to be an officer, that's

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Speaker 3: we really got to delve into the military art of tactics.

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Speaker 3: There's all the science of you know, the fundamentals of

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Speaker 3: the attack, the principles of war, all the rest. But

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Speaker 3: then we would just go out constantly and drill and

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Speaker 3: plan and then have to get a team and do

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Speaker 3: our plans and fail and see what was like, if

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Speaker 3: ever you were going to make soldiers do that, it

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Speaker 3: was brilliant and as opposed to arguing over you know,

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Speaker 3: philosophy or Pythagorisi's theorem or all the rest, it was

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Speaker 3: about military strategy and as you know, mate, it's one

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Speaker 3: of the oldest professions in the world. And the ability

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Speaker 3: to draw all that information and knowledge together to then

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Speaker 3: develop your own tactics and strategy.

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Speaker 1: It was really fun. There's actually quite a creative.

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Speaker 3: Artistic side to us, which you then have to go

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Speaker 3: practice physically to test your creativity.

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Speaker 1: It's not just so you.

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Speaker 2: Have to put it into into practice, into action to

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Speaker 2: test the theory.

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Speaker 1: Ultimately you are absolutely and that's the fun stuff.

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Speaker 3: And you know, all of that, combined with the officer

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Speaker 3: training I did throughout my career and particularly special Forces,

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Speaker 3: that development of the art of tactics is something that

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Speaker 3: I just loved so much from the military career and

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Speaker 3: never really got to appreciate that creative piece. But promoted

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Speaker 3: to the lieutenant, went up to Townsville to the second Battalion,

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Speaker 3: Royal Australian Regiment, a line infantry battalion, where I completed

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Speaker 3: three years. Within my first year, I was deployed to

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Speaker 3: Team or Less peacekeeping operation and to this day I

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Speaker 3: probably say as one of the most important milestones in

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Speaker 3: my career as a twenty one year old between commander

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Speaker 3: of thirty people, a seven month deployment where you're spending

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Speaker 3: most of the time with your weapons slung and going

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Speaker 3: out into the local tribes, into local villages doing key

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Speaker 3: leadership engagements and minds. That's it, and I'd studied Indonesia

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Speaker 3: the language as a major at the academy. Straight away

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Speaker 3: I was able to really engage with the locals in

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Speaker 3: one of their languages and really achieve a lot as

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Speaker 3: the commander. You can imagine that comes through just from

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Speaker 3: a respectable level in itself.

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Speaker 2: Twenty one years old is platoon commander? Yeah, how do

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Speaker 2: you feel, you know, especially going into that position as

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Speaker 2: a twenty one year old, such a young officer going

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Speaker 2: into such an important role. And then you've got the

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Speaker 2: NCOs as well.

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Speaker 4: That are there that have been in for like sixty

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Speaker 4: seventeen years and they see this, Yeah, this young spunker

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Speaker 4: come in, he's twenty one years old, and you but you.

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Speaker 2: Know, you have to command respect, You have to you

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Speaker 2: almost have to, you know, go in with a level

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Speaker 2: of you know, authority, especially as a twenty one year old.

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Speaker 2: How did that unfold? And how hard was that to

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Speaker 2: settle in? As let's call it one of the lads.

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Speaker 3: No great question, mane you get it? Yeah, yeah, you

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Speaker 3: are old ball, new ball and all the rest. By

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Speaker 3: this stage, I was really well advised by my dad.

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Speaker 3: My dad had been the military during peacetime. He joined

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Speaker 3: as a soldier, then became an officer, and during his

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Speaker 3: twenty years he deployed to Rifle Company Butterworth and that

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Speaker 3: was it. There was nothing else on and he got

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Speaker 3: out and he got back in ten years later, never

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Speaker 3: to be promoted again. And his simple words would be

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Speaker 3: good at your job, and be a good person, and

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Speaker 3: understand what your job is and what your role is

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Speaker 3: and for me coming into any team. And this really

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Speaker 3: applied later when it particularly I went into the Special Forces.

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Speaker 3: You can imagine I was twenty six when I did that,

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Speaker 3: and I had guys who deployed Afghanistan nine or ten times.

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Speaker 3: My job was to be an expert in planning and

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Speaker 3: leadership and understanding that leadership is about actually being an

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Speaker 3: impact player, knowing and understanding your people, uniting people with purpose.

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Speaker 3: Is the role of a leader, not being the guy

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Speaker 3: out the front constantly.

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Speaker 2: And amgation decision making and.

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Speaker 3: Group planning, group decision making like bringing in your platoon sergeant,

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Speaker 3: bringing in your section commanders, harnessing that experience and corporate knowledge,

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Speaker 3: giving them buy into the plan, learning from them, but

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Speaker 3: then just knowing end of the day, you're the one

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Speaker 3: to make the decision and you're the one responsible whether

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Speaker 3: it's a good plan or a bad plan. If it's

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Speaker 3: a good plan, it's all their success. If it's a

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Speaker 3: bad plan, it's all your failure.

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Speaker 1: Exactly.

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Speaker 2: Guess where I'm going to share.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and just honestly just making yourself equal and having

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Speaker 3: those conversations where at the end of the day, you

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Speaker 3: do have the responsibility of the authority of your rank,

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Speaker 3: but no one is entitled to anything based on their authority.

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Speaker 3: I mean, as you would know, mate, it's the toxic

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Speaker 3: leaders and the weak leaders who default to authority. Leadership

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Speaker 3: is about inspiring people, and I was very well benefited

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Speaker 3: by my physicality. I was always excellent at physical tasks

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Speaker 3: and tactical task and patrolling and all the rest, and

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Speaker 3: then really putting my due diligence to the planning, the communications,

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Speaker 3: the orders and all the rest, and just over time,

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Speaker 3: through respect and meritocracy, the guys sort of were won

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Speaker 3: over and you've become part.

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Speaker 1: Of the accepted tribe.

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Speaker 3: But then, as you know, the next part is to

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Speaker 3: make sure you don't transition into fully being one of

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Speaker 3: the lads and maintaining.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely buffer, especially of command, that hierarchical structure. You know,

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Speaker 2: there's a line to be drawn and for obvious reasons.

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Speaker 2: And I love what you said about leadership is about,

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Speaker 2: you know, putting yourself as an equal. It's that's super important.

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Speaker 3: At the end of the day, leadership is a service

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Speaker 3: to others. And you would know this from the military.

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Speaker 1: Mate.

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Speaker 3: I've seen so many of my colleagues have gone up

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Speaker 3: the ranks. There's this something happens when they flip and

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Speaker 3: they think leadership is about being served, and that's when

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Speaker 3: you've lost it in my opinion.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, do you know what. It's a great point and

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Speaker 2: hence why you probably absolutely flourished in what you've done

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Speaker 2: as a twenty one year old and then you know

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Speaker 2: you progress onto the special forces. Now what's that transition like?

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Speaker 2: And because like myself, I went on selection when I

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Speaker 2: was twenty six as well, and I enjoyed when I

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Speaker 2: was seventy as well. I was a grunt. But it's

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Speaker 2: one of those where you know, your aspirations can almost

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Speaker 2: be treated as a delusion, you know, when you're so

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Speaker 2: young and you they go, he's such so young and keen,

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Speaker 2: and you know, did you ever face face any backlash,

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Speaker 2: shall we say, or any sort of jealousy or envy

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Speaker 2: being where you were, who you were, what you'd already

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Speaker 2: achieved at such a young age, and then wanting not

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Speaker 2: going on, but wanting to be a special Forces operator.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think I think firstly that delusion is

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Speaker 3: probably a handy thing, solely focused. Remember I had a

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Speaker 3: Plan A and there was no Plan B. The biggest

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Speaker 3: struggle I had. You had to serve a minimum of

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Speaker 3: four years in the military before being able to apply,

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Speaker 3: and then when I applied, I remember turning up for

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Speaker 3: the assessment day before the selection course. It was one

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Speaker 3: of thirty officers and I was the youngest officer and

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Speaker 3: all the others had deployed to the Middle East before.

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Speaker 3: One of them was my adjudant from when I was

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Speaker 3: at the Royal Military College.

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Speaker 1: Syndrome.

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Speaker 3: The syndrome was the biggest thing I had to deal

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Speaker 3: with because I just sat there and compared myself to them.

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Speaker 3: I knew and I'd studied all the tabulated data of

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Speaker 3: every asset and everything we need in our planning iterations

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Speaker 3: for a Middle East based scenarios we'd face on the course.

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Speaker 3: But these people had called in gunshots, they commanded troops

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Speaker 3: in combat, and the hardest part for me was to

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Speaker 3: get over that mindset of I'm too young, I'm too inexperienced,

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Speaker 3: and I'm not as good as these others before we're

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Speaker 3: even up against any form of assessment. And as you know, mate,

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Speaker 3: you're not being assessed against them, You're being assessed against

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Speaker 3: yourself and your own performance. And it was those initial

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Speaker 3: mental and mindset gateways that I had to really push

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Speaker 3: through in a very rapid rate.

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Speaker 2: And how does it look special Forces selection? How long

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Speaker 2: is it? And obviously I know you go too much

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Speaker 2: into detail about it, but how does it look, you know,

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Speaker 2: going on from as as an officer or as anyone

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Speaker 2: really going on to Special Forces selection? Is it? Is

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Speaker 2: it like the UK where you know you're literally separating

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Speaker 2: yourself from the unit you sign yourself over. If you fail,

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Speaker 2: then you get art. You'd return to the unit if

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Speaker 2: you If you pass, and you know you progress on

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Speaker 2: into a squadron, which was which was what the Special

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Speaker 2: Forces does in the UK. You go to a saber

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Speaker 2: squadron and then and then you embed yourself there. How

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Speaker 2: does it look for the Aussies?

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Speaker 3: When I went through it, I have the benefit of

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Speaker 3: my last job in my career was then redesigning and

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Speaker 3: running the selection course just as well coming out of Afghanistan.

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Speaker 3: And I could talk to you all day about that,

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Speaker 3: because I know you get that backcasting, emotional quotient development,

355
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Speaker 3: testing all the rest. But when I did it, it

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Speaker 3: was a six week process for an officer. There was

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Speaker 3: an initial officer per week where the thirty of us

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Speaker 3: got together in every n officer from the unit would

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Speaker 3: come and just you.

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Speaker 2: And to this day, yeah, still been on one of those.

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Speaker 2: I've been on one of those.

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Speaker 3: Everyone who's got a chip on their shoulder, come out

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Speaker 3: and just go through a group therapy session at your expense.

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Speaker 2: Especially for officers.

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Speaker 3: Mate, those PT sessions that pictures, you know, two or

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Speaker 3: three to one staff members just on you.

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Speaker 1: And I have this terrible ability.

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Speaker 3: I'm doing it now where when I'm under stressful duress,

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Speaker 3: I just smile because deep down I'm happy to be

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Speaker 3: there exactly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yea. And going back to.

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Speaker 2: Never highlight yourself in a negative way, my guys.

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Speaker 3: Used to say in combat, the wouldn't met a camouflage

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Speaker 3: my teeth because it was the.

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Speaker 1: Only part that the enemy might be able to see,

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Speaker 1: even at night.

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Speaker 3: But but yeah, so, particularly being the youngest and you

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Speaker 3: and you, going back to what you said.

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Speaker 1: Beforehand, was that a weakness that was exploited or a

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Speaker 1: perceived weakness? Oh?

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Speaker 3: Mate, I remember crawling through the mud, pushing time, flipping tires,

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Speaker 3: carrying heavy things. And next thing is like, what are

383
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Speaker 3: you twenty six years old number candidate twelve? Do you

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Speaker 3: really think you have what it takes the command soldiers

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Speaker 3: who've been there, killed people, done this, done that, and

386
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Speaker 3: just planting that seeds of sabotage within your own head.

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Speaker 2: Seas of dow seas and self doubt that you grow

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Speaker 2: in your head.

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Speaker 3: You know massive well, mate, and I'm sure i'd be

390
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Speaker 3: interested to hear if the statistics are saying for you guys.

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Speaker 1: But on that, that's six weeks for me.

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Speaker 3: I started at ninety one kilos about the way I

393
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Speaker 3: am now and went down to just over seventy five kilos.

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Speaker 3: And of the one hundred and twenty we started with,

395
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Speaker 3: thirty finished, and eighty to eighty five percent of the

396
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Speaker 3: people who come off the course year after year come

397
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Speaker 3: off by their own requests. They would pull out their

398
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Speaker 3: form and they withdraw at their own requests.

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Speaker 2: Pollute withdraw VW Yeah, we call at WRT VW.

400
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Speaker 3: And as you don't mate, that's the most important, particularly

401
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Speaker 3: when we're given missions that are potentially no fail there

402
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,040
Speaker 3: is no backup, and that process of breaking people down

403
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Speaker 3: physically and mentally to expose the true authenticity and do

404
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,640
Speaker 3: you have what it takes when you're alone, when you're tired,

405
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Speaker 3: when you're hungry, when you're under stress, to not come

406
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Speaker 3: up with a reason in your head why you can't

407
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Speaker 3: do it, but instead find a reason why you must

408
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Speaker 3: do it. And it was brilliant to be taken on

409
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Speaker 3: that mental journey and then, like I said at the

410
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Speaker 3: end of my career, be a part of taking people

411
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Speaker 3: on that mental journey and giving them their reflections once

412
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Speaker 3: you come off the course. That in itself is just

413
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Speaker 3: an evolutionary upgrade for anyone I believe who's gone through

414
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Speaker 3: that process, particularly people like you and I who've gone

415
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Speaker 3: through successfully.

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Speaker 2: So when you do finally we call it getting badged.

417
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:46,440
Speaker 2: When you do finally pass selection, what does that feel

418
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Speaker 2: like for you as a young off sub and what

419
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Speaker 2: does it look like for you moving forward? Because that's

420
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Speaker 2: just the tip of the iceberg. You go there and

421
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Speaker 2: all of a sudden you are thrust off into multiple

422
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Speaker 2: operations in multiple countries. It's like, but that moment, just

423
00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:05,560
Speaker 2: that moment of you being badged or passing selection, how

424
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Speaker 2: did that feel? And what unit did you go to

425
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Speaker 2: and what happened thereafter?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I went to the second Commander Regiment. So

427
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Speaker 3: it's bet And as you know, mate, that beret is

428
00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:20,280
Speaker 3: so covered and it goes back to World War II,

429
00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,720
Speaker 3: and there's so much history and honor that comes with that,

430
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:28,119
Speaker 3: and the official beret presenting ceremony is very ceremonial and

431
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,880
Speaker 3: very detailed for that reason. But as you said, it's

432
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Speaker 3: just the start of the journey, and you would know

433
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,639
Speaker 3: better than others. There's the whole being qualified. All the

434
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,359
Speaker 3: qualifications and skills we got on all the courses is

435
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,679
Speaker 3: like the academics and university, but then there's a lived

436
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,720
Speaker 3: experience and application of those skills in real life.

437
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Speaker 1: That is the true education component.

438
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Speaker 3: So while you're skilled and drilled on paper, after the

439
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:57,080
Speaker 3: requirements to being a Beret qualified commando, the journey just begins.

440
00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,480
Speaker 3: And for me, it was a baptism of five where

441
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:04,840
Speaker 3: I was assigned to November Platoon, a platoon with an

442
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,440
Speaker 3: Alpha Company two Komando Regiment. They had just got back

443
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 3: from Afghanistan. I was the youngest as a platoon commander.

444
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:12,840
Speaker 1: Here's the kicker, mate.

445
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:17,280
Speaker 3: During that deployment in twenty ten, on insertion to a target,

446
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:22,560
Speaker 3: one of the Blackhawks carrying an element of novembertoon crashed,

447
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,359
Speaker 3: hit low, hit a feature up from the ground and

448
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,080
Speaker 3: three people were killed. Straight away, Ben Chuck, Tim Applan

449
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,800
Speaker 3: and Scottie Palmer and the others on the helicopter sustained

450
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,920
Speaker 3: pretty incredible injuries, as you could imagine. They come back,

451
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,119
Speaker 3: they go through their de compression period.

452
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:37,960
Speaker 1: Next thing, I'm.

453
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,240
Speaker 3: Brought in as a new platoon commander. The platoon sergeant

454
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:41,880
Speaker 3: need to be replaced. He was injured on that flight

455
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 3: as well. So my first job is forming, norming and

456
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,800
Speaker 3: storming a battle hardened platoon that's also just lost three

457
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 3: of their best warriors during that recent deployment. And again, mate,

458
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:53,960
Speaker 3: it was defaulting back to the team more piece. It's

459
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,800
Speaker 3: just hey, what's my job? Get into it. And we

460
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 3: had to then take over the domestic counterterrorism role that

461
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,680
Speaker 3: we'd run out at Holsworthy here and straight away we're

462
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 3: into an exercise that's the handover takeover exercise that the

463
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 3: Minister has to come and sign you off, and you're shooting, moving, communicating,

464
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 3: flying all around the country, presenting orders, doing all the rest.

465
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 3: So I was actually really enabled by just being putting

466
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:20,040
Speaker 3: straight into a job that was too much straight in.

467
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 3: There wasn't enough time to sit around and have cups

468
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:23,639
Speaker 3: of coffee unless it was first thing in the morning

469
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,919
Speaker 3: before the mission, and it was just all actions and

470
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,680
Speaker 3: words in orders and planning and all the rest, and

471
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 3: straight away through just competence and being a good person

472
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,720
Speaker 3: at the same time, was able to win them over

473
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 3: through the high tempo that is the nature of our operations,

474
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,399
Speaker 3: but it also could have very easily been the prime

475
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,920
Speaker 3: exposure for as you know, you can't bluff your way

476
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,920
Speaker 3: through that shit, and especially and especially with the first

477
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 3: response from the lines then you're going into is just

478
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 3: looking for weakness and looking for blood.

479
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,360
Speaker 1: That was probably one of the hardest.

480
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,239
Speaker 3: Times for me, just as far as being aware of

481
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 3: all that I'm very empathetic and aware of all this

482
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:03,880
Speaker 3: that's going on, and then just being able to bring

483
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 3: your mindset down to the five, ten and fifteen minute

484
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 3: targets in front of you and not worry about the

485
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 3: whole swirling emotional situation around you.

486
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 2: I love that, mate, and that's why, you know, it's

487
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,639
Speaker 2: so important that I asked that question because I know it.

488
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 2: I know that one you.

489
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:27,679
Speaker 3: Know who, they're not going to help you out climbing

490
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 3: that road Maine.

491
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 2: But you know what what you said about being thrust

492
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 2: into the into work and you know having you know,

493
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 2: there's no time to think about things. There's no R

494
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 2: and R, there's no you know. It's the same with myself.

495
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 2: I passed selection and within two weeks I was in

496
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 2: the Middle East on pre deployment training and within four

497
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 2: weeks I was point man within a saber squadron. So

498
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 2: I understand the importance of you know, you being thrust

499
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 2: into that because you can almost you almost own your stripes,

500
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 2: you know straight away, don't you, rather than having to

501
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 2: sit back and lay back and go, oh, do you

502
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,679
Speaker 2: do your funds in the office and go shit, you

503
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:06,880
Speaker 2: know what am I going to do now?

504
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 3: And as you do, mate, That's what I just love

505
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 3: so much about that whole Special Forces community and the

506
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 3: whole job, particularly now in everyday life, where there is

507
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 3: no room to hide, there's no room for inauthenticity, there's

508
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 3: no room for you know this lollibag of words. It

509
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 3: really came down to what you did and how you

510
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 3: treated people, and as you've experienced out there for real

511
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 3: with life and death scenarios, like what other job are

512
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 3: you able to feel out each other and form a

513
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 3: culture where you know you can't hide behind a computer

514
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,880
Speaker 3: and emails. You're out there planning, implementing the plans, taking

515
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 3: the fight to the enemy, receiving the fight from the enemy,

516
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 3: and being exposed. And I think also for me, it

517
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 3: was just amazing to see how professional that selection and

518
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 3: training process was to be able to then, as you said,

519
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 3: default to your.

520
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 1: Level of training.

521
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 3: I love that people say, you know, in crisis, you

522
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,200
Speaker 3: know you rise to the occasion defaulty level of training

523
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 3: and experience. And the beast that trained us and put

524
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 3: us out same same between Australia, the UK and the

525
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 3: US and all the rest is just so professional and

526
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 3: what it does, and it helps you to appreciate why

527
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 3: you went through all of that ship Yeah, to be

528
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 3: where you're at and then be tested, Yeah, because you.

529
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 2: Question it sometimes why am I going through this? And

530
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 2: it all makes sense when and when things are harder,

531
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 2: when things are you know, out of your control, where

532
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 2: you have to adapt, you have to improvite, you have

533
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 2: to overcome, you have to use each other. We sort

534
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 2: of operated and functioned through the Golden Days, you know

535
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 2: when you know it's like training on the on the football,

536
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 2: which you trained because you want to want to perform

537
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 2: in the cup final, you know, you want to. We

538
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 2: were like, right, this is what I've trained, this is

539
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:44,920
Speaker 2: what the government spent millions on us for. This is

540
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 2: what we need to do. And I do call it

541
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 2: the Golden Days because you know, Afghanistan was kinetic. You know,

542
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 2: you joined the military, you joined the Special Forces, knowing

543
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 2: that you're going to do back to back tours in

544
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:58,360
Speaker 2: the Middle East. You're going to you know, that's that's

545
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 2: where you're going to live the majority of your life.

546
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 2: And then you're going to go on rotation. You're going

547
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 2: to go and cross train with the Aussies, the Americans,

548
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 2: the Kiwis. You know, but you knew that you'd be

549
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 2: constantly busy. When was your first tour of Afghanistan with

550
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 2: in the Special Forces, with a body of individuals under

551
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 2: your command.

552
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, so twenty twelve was my.

553
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 3: Platoon kinetic operation as a part of the Special Operations

554
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 3: Task Group. My first deployment, I took our first female

555
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:32,879
Speaker 3: Prime minister over there on a PSDAL security office. That

556
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,159
Speaker 3: was fascinating, good to see some of the insights. But

557
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 3: the first proper kinetic operation. We were really professional the

558
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 3: way in which we rotated in and out as well.

559
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 3: I actually did a pre deployment where I went and

560
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 3: embedded with the company and platoon that was over there

561
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,679
Speaker 3: for two weeks and did some missions, came back and

562
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 3: helped run our mission rehearsal exercises, and then we deployed

563
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 3: and deployed for five months in.

564
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 2: So you've got that crossover.

565
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 1: So it's the latest TTP.

566
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 3: You can imagine everything from the technology that we're in

567
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 3: plowing from the assets in the sky through to By

568
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 3: that stage, we were partnering with the Drug Enforcement Administration,

569
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 3: the DEA guys from the US to go into Helman

570
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 3: and blow up opium labs and track the money that

571
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 3: was funding terrors.

572
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah. Who's the Golden.

573
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 2: Where they're big with a big silver you know the

574
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:19,919
Speaker 2: pits and the silver trades where they used to do

575
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 2: the cook all.

576
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 3: There, and they had these giant presses and just the

577
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 3: different even the because unfortunately being Australian. We never had

578
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 3: any of our own aircraft of helicopters there. So just

579
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 3: even going over there and learning who were the battlespace owners,

580
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 3: who owned the assets, who you had to take a

581
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 3: cartn of red bulls to if you need an extra

582
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 3: patch that yeah, yeah, yeah, and you and I laughed.

583
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 3: But literally of a quiet military assets through Australian Fresh

584
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 3: cream milk and red bulls and Fanta for the local

585
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 3: partner force.

586
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: But yeah.

587
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 3: July twenty twelve deployed based in Tarran count and immediately

588
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 3: commenced two lines of operation. One was sort of counter

589
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 3: leadership and insurgents within Uruzgan and Candor and then the

590
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 3: counter drugs working with the DEA guys into Helmond. And

591
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 3: during that five months sixty seven missions. I don't like

592
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 3: it as a measurement, but we killed one hundred and

593
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 3: seventeen sergeants, captured so many more, and I lost one

594
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 3: of my best soldiers, Corporal Scott Smith, who was killed

595
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 3: by an ID on the twenty first of October.

596
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 2: Do you remember that day? And can you recall that

597
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 2: day massively?

598
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 3: It was so we had been sent to conduct a

599
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 3: three day clearance partnered with the United States Marine Corps.

600
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 3: They were the battlefield commander of that area of Keshmesh

601
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 3: Khan up near the Kajaki Fan and they wanted to

602
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 3: do a clearance and we partnered with a troop of tanks.

603
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 3: Michel Toombe partnered with a troop of m one Abrams

604
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 3: tanks from the US Marine Corps and we did a

605
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 3: three day rather conventional clearance from west to east. And

606
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 3: it was on the morning of the second day where

607
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 3: I push one of my teams up into this building

608
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,959
Speaker 3: that was firing on our company headquarters. There's correz system,

609
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 3: so giant wells cut into the ground that's got the

610
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 3: waterway underneath. You'd have insurgents going through those waterways popping

611
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 3: up with RPG shooting at the tanks. We're uncovering massive

612
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 3: cases of rockets, mortars.

613
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 1: Weapons and all the rest.

614
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, And the biggest one was because we had the tanks,

615
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 3: they just set out put these IEDs everywhere, and I

616
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 3: remember we'd literally start jumping on the tanks to travel

617
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 3: even fifty meters between two compounds, and he'd just be

618
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 3: popping as his loads are going off underneath you.

619
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 1: It was pretty incredible.

620
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 3: On that second morning pushed my team up to clear

621
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 3: this compound, so big mud bricked wall compound where insurgents

622
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 3: were firing at our company headquarter element. They cleared that

623
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 3: compound but immediately found hundreds of components that would be

624
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 3: made used to make IEDs. And Scott was the special

625
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 3: operations engineer attached to that team. I had a team

626
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 3: a section attached to my platoon and he immediately identified

627
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 3: there were issues and he pushed his point man back

628
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 3: while he went and cleared this doorway and there was

629
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 3: a zero metal content pressure plate that immediately detonated and

630
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 3: killed him and blew him over about three hundred meters

631
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 3: worth of worth of span from you know, a limb

632
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 3: through to a five cent piece of him. And as

633
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 3: you would know mate straight away, that giant plume of

634
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 3: dust and smoke was a giant signal for every insurgent

635
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 3: in the region and then come and try and drive

636
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 3: their advantage. And it's still one of the most inspiring

637
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 3: days to me and I love reflecting on it, for

638
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 3: it was terrible, but it was so tremendous in what

639
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 3: it taught me about, like that true human spirit. In Australia,

640
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 3: we talked about the ANZAC spirit where my guy straight away?

641
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 3: You know, we were I remember looking around and the

642
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 3: guys were up.

643
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 2: So where were you at this stage?

644
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 3: I was about four hundred meters back. And then I

645
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 3: had the call that there'd been an AD strike and

646
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 3: they read out his call sign was KA, and I

647
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 3: called over the nearest tank, grabbed my headquarters, jumped on

648
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 3: the tank and just said drive straight for that compound.

649
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 3: I could see the plume of dust, yeah, of course,

650
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 3: and then turn up and then just went out into

651
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 3: went into action mode like we were under an attack.

652
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 1: As soon as we got there. We got the.

653
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 3: Tank to drive from that compound in a straight line

654
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 3: and punched a hole through the three meter high wall

655
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 3: in the next compound, started moving the partner force along

656
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 3: the track that the tank had made. With the track

657
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 3: moving along, so we knew that was ied cleared. Got

658
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 3: absolutely pizzled moving between those two buildings. We still got

659
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 3: them through and then started trying to coordinate one establishing

660
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 3: a defensive perimeter, pulled the tanks up onto points. Also

661
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 3: had other marines with, you know, like the Mark nineteen

662
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 3: grenade launchers fifty gals and they had my guys in

663
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 3: roots cutting holes in the walls to fire out of,

664
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 3: and while half the platoon established that position and we

665
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 3: won sort of that initial initiative and took it back,

666
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 3: had some harriers come in, had some apaches come in.

667
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 3: Everyone wanted to help. Everyone had wanted to come and help,

668
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 3: but I was kind of like, hey, like we can't.

669
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 3: Everything was so close to us, and the terrain is

670
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 3: that complicated. That lasting needed was to get in trouble

671
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 3: legally as well. And then I remember looking up seeing

672
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 3: everyone fighting, doing their job, and then watching you know,

673
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,959
Speaker 3: the other half of my platoon, big burly tattooed men

674
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 3: on hands and knees, you know, for two and a

675
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 3: half hours picking up the smallest pieces of Scott to

676
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 3: put into these bags so we could put him on

677
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 3: the helicopter to get him out of there. And it

678
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 3: was just so inspiring seeing that juxtaposition of you know

679
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 3: that the brutality of war and warriors doing their job,

680
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 3: and then just the care and love and affection the

681
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 3: guys had trying to make sure we got all of

682
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 3: Scott to send him home.

683
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: And yeah, that was pretty it was pretty incredible.

684
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 3: It was my job to then carry him back to

685
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 3: the company Sergeant major who then put him on a

686
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 3: helicopter and took him home, and then we spent the

687
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 3: next two days fighting on to finish the mission. And

688
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 3: I'm sure you can imagine the one of my favorite

689
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 3: pictures on my desk at home is I called in

690
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 3: the team commanders after went back to the company, dropped

691
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 3: Scott off and just got them around the map, pull

692
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 3: out a knife. One of my commanders, one of my

693
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 3: second commanders, put grenades to hold the map down just

694
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 3: for the picture point of view, but just briefed everyone

695
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,240
Speaker 3: on the mission. Old school, no powerpoints, no gadget's nothing,

696
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 3: you know, the situation, mission execution, having logistics command and

697
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 3: sig hey, we got a new purpose to honor Scott's death,

698
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 3: not to take revenge, but to find on you know,

699
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 3: so he would be proud of this mission and those

700
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 3: three days while we lost Scott. And it's still painful

701
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 3: to remember that just forged a new level of matship

702
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 3: and team solid. I've never been able.

703
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 1: To replicate it again in my Yeah yeah, and.

704
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 3: Still stands and still inspires to this day.

705
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 2: How hard is it not to seek revenge or not

706
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 2: to let that revenge mindset sort of come into play,

707
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 2: because yeah, it's a negative sort of emotion sets. It

708
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 2: can lead to a negative outcome, to negative decisions, to

709
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 2: bad decisions. And how hard is it to keep that

710
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 2: obey knowing that one of your men, you know, had

711
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 2: just been blown up.

712
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 3: Great question, mate, really great question, and particularly in that

713
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 3: context where you don't have someone to blame. It's a

714
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 3: bomb under the ground, so every insurgent is to blame.

715
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 3: And being aware, I think a big thing that the

716
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:32,839
Speaker 3: selection course teaches us is to be aware of our

717
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 3: emotions and not let them control us. And I just

718
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 3: remember all of the emotions you spoke up, came over me,

719
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 3: came over my guys, and I think straight away it's

720
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:46,879
Speaker 3: that relationship you have going into those crisis situations where

721
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,359
Speaker 3: you can read those in each other and have those

722
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 3: upfront conversations. And particularly for me, it was using that

723
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 3: orders group to refocus that energy into the mission and

724
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 3: not into whatever anyone was driving in their own heart,

725
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 3: and talk about the importance of why we're there and

726
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 3: the long lasting impacts of what our next actions would have.

727
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 1: Because it's so easy.

728
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 3: You're out there in the middle of nowhere, you are

729
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 3: the masters of your own universe. I could call in

730
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 3: the finger of God and give my initials to give

731
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 3: the approvals. You know, you could completely be unaccountable to

732
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 3: anyone else, but it was the true test of service

733
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,879
Speaker 3: and those values as to while you were there that

734
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:26,240
Speaker 3: you had to display and dig into. And I honestly

735
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 3: think it's everything that leads you up to that process,

736
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:30,879
Speaker 3: being selected, working with a team, and all the rest

737
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 3: that just really make sure you're the right person to

738
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 3: go through those situations. But one hundred percent, it's a

739
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 3: team effort and you no, Maad only takes a few

740
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 3: bad eggs or a few bad influences to help it

741
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 3: go the other way. But fortunately in that situation, we're

742
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 3: able to channel that energy for the positive purpose that

743
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 3: we still had.

744
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 2: What did it feel like as an officer? Yeah too,

745
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 2: And it's different for us. I suppose it's the same.

746
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 2: But you know, was it like as an officer to

747
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 2: lose one of your men on a mission that you

748
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 2: were leading?

749
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:11,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember struggling with emotions of shame, embarrassment exactly

750
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 3: as you said, like, this is my mission I'm responsible

751
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 3: for at the end of the day, good or bad,

752
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 3: and I had lost one of my soldiers and it's

753
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 3: not a name on a piece of paper. You know,

754
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 3: he had a mum, he had a sister, you know

755
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 3: he has a nephew, all these sorts of things, and

756
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:31,320
Speaker 3: it's really difficult to you almost feel selfish thinking about

757
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 3: the sorrowful parts that impact you on your professional career

758
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 3: on all the rest. And I think it's just having

759
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 3: to again what I'm good at doing in a pragmatic way,

760
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 3: putting the mission and team before yourself, like it's not

761
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 3: about me. If the shoe had been on the other

762
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,399
Speaker 3: foot and it was me, I know that I would

763
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 3: have died doing what I wanted to do, and I

764
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 3: knew that's exactly what he did as well. So I

765
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 3: think it's really going through a very pragmatic process to

766
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 3: understand and appreciate the emotions you're having, but to again

767
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:08,320
Speaker 3: remove yourself from the attachment. Yeah, and it's difficult, especially

768
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 3: it's a pretty hyper experience to learn it for the

769
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 3: first time. But I was just so fascinated to feel

770
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 3: those emotions of shame and embarrassment and feel like I

771
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,359
Speaker 3: had failed in some way tactically and perhaps break through

772
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 3: some of that delusion whereas to thinking that I could

773
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 3: perfectly orchestrate warfare like it was a written script.

774
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 2: Was there ever a moment for you where you you know,

775
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 2: you know, I suppose combat fatigued, so it kicks in

776
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 2: and you think, you know, I need to hand over

777
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 2: the torch.

778
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:40,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I loved it.

779
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 3: Maslow's hierarchy of needs, that self actualized version of myself

780
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:49,320
Speaker 3: achieving flow in combat, being so in the moment, immersed

781
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,879
Speaker 3: and with a team and tribe that I just felt

782
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 3: so a part of I would go back and do

783
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 3: that tomorrow with the right people, for the right purpose. Unfortunately,

784
00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 3: probably like yourself, I've since been able to look a

785
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 3: lot at the wars we fought and perhaps why we

786
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 3: were there and all the rest. But for me, my

787
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 3: reason to end up leaving the military actually came from

788
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 3: a lot of reasons of the heart and head.

789
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,840
Speaker 1: I fell in love with someone, and.

790
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 3: I wasn't sure how to mesh my personal life with

791
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 3: my professional life.

792
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:26,240
Speaker 2: We fell in love with someone from work outside.

793
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,320
Speaker 3: In America, and one year I went to the Rangers.

794
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 1: Yeah.

795
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 3: I sort of kept myself in the closets sexually throughout

796
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 3: my entire career, and in the US I actually got

797
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,919
Speaker 3: to meet professional gay men I didn't know who were gay.

798
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 3: I did own it as their identity, and I've got

799
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 3: to figure out, hey, I can actually still be Heston Russell,

800
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 3: the commander officer and whoever I want to be in

801
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 3: my personal life. But yeah, my last apployment to Iraq,

802
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 3: or we helped to take the fight to isis one

803
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 3: of the most incredible deployments and missions I've ever been

804
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 3: a part of. He was back in la and it

805
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 3: is the first time I've been deployed with someone back

806
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,280
Speaker 3: at home. And at the same time, I was deployed

807
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 3: with the general who was going to come back and

808
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 3: be the next commander of our special operations. He'd come

809
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,319
Speaker 3: from a very conventional career and in his mindset he

810
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 3: needed to get us back to haircuts, ironing uniforms, being

811
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 3: the Special Forces Brigade just refused to listen to any

812
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 3: of the experience that we had around him. And my

813
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 3: next position mate was to start climbing the ranks to

814
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 3: lieutenant colone or going down the Canberra move on to

815
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 3: a career that was away from the guys and the teams,

816
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,320
Speaker 3: and I wanted to be a part of. So those

817
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,760
Speaker 3: three combined, I took my long service leave. I followed

818
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 3: my heart moved to the US to be with my

819
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,800
Speaker 3: boyfriend at the time, and so I said about for

820
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 3: wing a new life from there.

821
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 1: Wow, they're right.

822
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 2: Wow, it was segue different, different, And throughout your whole

823
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,279
Speaker 2: career were you always in the closet? Where was it?

824
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 2: Did it affect your work, did it affect who you

825
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 2: were or did you just think? Or did you just were?

826
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 2: You very good at compartmentalizing, separating.

827
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:04,360
Speaker 3: The team developed this, there's different personality, Mike the pe teacher.

828
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 2: I think we need another hour.

829
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:14,840
Speaker 3: I was able to compartmentalize and separate, and look again,

830
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 3: you can imagine how hard it is for me on

831
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:21,279
Speaker 3: the outside trying to explain military culture to you know,

832
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 3: the LGBT IQO plus community and vice versa. The culture

833
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 3: service admission before self to a culture that's all about

834
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 3: being seen and being heard, and like, I get it

835
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 3: for those reasons, but I got to a place where

836
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 3: I didn't need to be recognized or accepted for my

837
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 3: sexuality because it meant nothing to what I truly loved.

838
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 3: That was my mission and that was my job, and

839
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 3: I didn't know how to mesh the two together, so

840
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 3: I kept them completely separate. I also didn't know what

841
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 3: gay was. I was brought up in a very conservative

842
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 3: family up in Brisbane. When I moved down to Sydney

843
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:58,399
Speaker 3: and joined the Commandos, the first insight to the gay

844
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:00,720
Speaker 3: world I saw was middrift and drag queens on Oxford

845
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 3: Street and scared the shit out of me because I

846
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 3: didn't see there wasn't another there was another gay Special

847
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,399
Speaker 3: Forces person that I knew of, and there hasn't been

848
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 3: again in the Australian military publicly, not that they need

849
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 3: to be at all. So I just didn't know what

850
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:16,319
Speaker 3: I didn't know, and I was too afraid to be

851
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,319
Speaker 3: the first, and I was too afraid for it to

852
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 3: potentially impact any form of stigmas or stereotypes within the

853
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:25,879
Speaker 3: guys within the unit. Like this was two thousand and

854
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 3: ten to twenty fifteen, before the gay marriage vote, before

855
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 3: all this, and as you would know, mate, it actually

856
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 3: doesn't matter, and the guys since have reinforced it so much.

857
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 3: But as the officer, as the commander, as a member

858
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 3: of the Special Forces, there was nothing I wanted to

859
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 3: introduce into the mixture of our social engagement and environment

860
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 3: in the workplace. To do that was even more uncertain

861
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 3: than what we had to deal with. So I chose

862
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 3: to put my sexuality on the back foot. I was

863
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 3: more than happy with that. I never had relationships and

864
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:57,959
Speaker 3: all the rest till I met Blake. And then again

865
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 3: there was that natural divide where hey, I'm done with

866
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 3: this and it's time to explore this love thing that

867
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 3: I've never felt before.

868
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 2: Do you think anyone new? Do you think anyone.

869
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 1: I delay? I delayed telling my daddy here and he

870
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 1: reckons he knew. But did your dad say he didn't? Yeah,

871
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:20,799
Speaker 1: he found out here after mom and sister.

872
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,880
Speaker 3: But no, And it's not that I prided myself on that.

873
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 3: I just love and I still love it today. Where

874
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 3: people know me it's Heston Russell, not as any of

875
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 3: these other labels in between, because that's what I feel

876
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 3: we have to aspire from. That's where I feel we're

877
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 3: getting wrong in society. Like I'm gay, you have to

878
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 3: accept me. I'm a veteran, you have to accept me.

879
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 3: No one ever will mate. It's how you perform in

880
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,760
Speaker 3: yourself and treat others like your name is your label.

881
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:47,279
Speaker 3: And that's why I fought so hard to grasp for

882
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 3: myself and encourage others to do as well.

883
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 2: Or Mate You've done a phenomenal job in doing that,

884
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 2: absolutely phenomenal and sat opposite you. May you know it's

885
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 2: it's been an absolute pleasure and there's so much more

886
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 2: to say. Do you know what You're gonna have to

887
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 2: get Heston's book? Just remind us of the name of your.

888
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: Book, Forging the Will to Fight.

889
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:09,359
Speaker 2: It's all my web Forging the Will to Fight? Yeah,

890
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 2: Ford on your website? What's your website?

891
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 1: Heston Russell dot com.

892
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 2: Heston Russell dot com Forging the Will to Fight? You

893
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 2: can go a lot more into depth by getting Heston's book.

894
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 2: But mate, you've been an absolute pleasure to talk to you.

895
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:23,840
Speaker 2: Mate of reminisces. I think I've talked more about myself

896
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:25,720
Speaker 2: than I have about ye know more.

897
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:27,360
Speaker 1: About you, mate, everything We know a lot about you.

898
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:29,279
Speaker 1: There's so many more layers to be seen. Yeah, do

899
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 1: you know?

900
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 2: It's like everyone right, there's so much more layers to

901
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 2: be seen. There's so much more you know of us

902
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 2: than than people know. But mate, it's an absolute pleasure

903
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 2: to get to know you within the short hour that

904
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 2: I've got you. What is next for you? Heston?

905
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 3: The book launch made, It's been four years in the making,

906
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 3: and I'm really looking forward to getting that out and

907
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 3: I'm trying to get myself back into I run an

908
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 3: event once a year called the Veteran Games through my

909
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 3: charity and building that it's in its third year Veterangames

910
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 3: dot Com. Trying to get guys who are isolated out

911
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 3: there and at the biggest risk of mental health off together,

912
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 3: doing obstacle courses, doing casual evacuations, doing all the team

913
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:07,239
Speaker 3: stuff we used to do, and then myself getting back

914
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 3: into some corporate speaking and just helping to spread the

915
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:12,319
Speaker 3: good word mate, much like you do out there, and

916
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:14,400
Speaker 3: trying to just be the best version of me I

917
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 3: can outside of that amazing purpose and environment we have

918
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:19,240
Speaker 3: with motivation in service.

919
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:21,760
Speaker 2: That was a pretty good version mate. It's a pretty

920
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:23,360
Speaker 2: good version of a right.

921
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 1: Now better inspiration out there in the community.

922
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 3: I want to thank you for your service and what

923
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 3: you do, particular here in Australia. It's great to see

924
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:32,439
Speaker 3: a brick come over here and do what you do, mate,

925
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 3: and break through so many of the stigmas as well,

926
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 3: so I appreciate it.

927
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:36,839
Speaker 2: You know what, mate, if you need any help, will

928
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 2: fucking help out in any way with your events. Let

929
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 2: me know we'll do pleasure mate. Thank you.

930
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 1: Thanks Anne.

931
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 2: As you've heard, Heston's book, Forging the Will to Fight

932
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 2: is available now via his website. You can also check

933
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 2: out Heston's podcast, The ABC's of Heston Russell. I'll put

934
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 2: it in the show notes and don't forget if you

935
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 2: need help. Also, you can contact Lifeline on thirteen eleven

936
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:10,320
Speaker 2: fourteen or Beyond Blue at beyond blue dot org dot AU.

937
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:15,759
Speaker 2: ADF personnel can also access confidential support our link the

938
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 2: details in the show notes. Thank you for joining me

939
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 2: on this episode of Headgame. If you enjoyed this episode,

940
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:26,839
Speaker 2: please share it with a friend. I'm at Middleton. Catch

941
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:32,880
Speaker 2: you in the next episode.