1 00:00:05,921 --> 00:00:13,681 Speaker 1: Apodha production, life stuff, life, parenting. 2 00:00:14,281 --> 00:00:16,441 Speaker 2: We're doing life together and we're just going to tell 3 00:00:16,481 --> 00:00:17,161 Speaker 2: you all about it. 4 00:00:17,601 --> 00:00:22,041 Speaker 1: I hate the word perimenopause. I can't We're not in menopause, Like, 5 00:00:22,081 --> 00:00:23,361 Speaker 1: it's making me angry. 6 00:00:23,761 --> 00:00:28,401 Speaker 2: What Welcome back. 7 00:00:28,201 --> 00:00:32,321 Speaker 1: To another episode. Who even are We? We're on socials 8 00:00:32,361 --> 00:00:36,561 Speaker 1: as well. Who even are we? On Instagram? And Facebook? 9 00:00:37,281 --> 00:00:38,441 Speaker 2: Yeah? And the Facebook. 10 00:00:38,441 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: By the way, if anybody used to follow us when 11 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: we were doing Am I a Bad Mom? 12 00:00:42,441 --> 00:00:42,921 Speaker 2: Podcast? 13 00:00:43,361 --> 00:00:46,480 Speaker 1: We couldn't find a password for that. We've lost it, 14 00:00:46,601 --> 00:00:49,681 Speaker 1: So don't worry about following that one anymore and follow 15 00:00:49,961 --> 00:00:50,721 Speaker 1: Who even are We? 16 00:00:50,801 --> 00:00:53,561 Speaker 2: On Facebook? I don't think I'm even following it yet, 17 00:00:53,641 --> 00:00:56,121 Speaker 2: so I will go on and follow that as well. 18 00:00:57,001 --> 00:00:59,801 Speaker 1: This episode is a big one. This episode we are 19 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:04,921 Speaker 1: talking about grief, which, yeah, when you get to this 20 00:01:05,401 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: point in time, and when we talk about the name 21 00:01:07,961 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: of the podcast, which is who even are We? And 22 00:01:10,041 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 1: we get to this age in life, and I feel like, 23 00:01:12,721 --> 00:01:15,401 Speaker 1: you know, if you're lucky, you've had a good run 24 00:01:15,441 --> 00:01:19,321 Speaker 1: when you're younger of not having to go through grief. 25 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: You know, as a kid, you might have a pet 26 00:01:21,241 --> 00:01:25,361 Speaker 1: that dies, or you know, getting older, maybe a grandparent 27 00:01:25,961 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: which is sad, but I feel like when you get 28 00:01:29,121 --> 00:01:31,401 Speaker 1: to older in life and when I say. 29 00:01:32,161 --> 00:01:34,801 Speaker 2: Lucky every time older, yeah, I'm not younger. 30 00:01:34,961 --> 00:01:40,241 Speaker 1: Yeah, However, there does become situations where you know, people 31 00:01:40,521 --> 00:01:43,321 Speaker 1: pass on and I find this topic really difficult, actually, Rachel, 32 00:01:43,321 --> 00:01:46,321 Speaker 1: because I am somebody that is definitely scared of death, 33 00:01:46,881 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: has definitely spent years and years of my adult life 34 00:01:51,081 --> 00:01:54,721 Speaker 1: worrying about that. What's that on my leg? What does 35 00:01:54,761 --> 00:01:57,081 Speaker 1: this mean? What's the doctor going to say? 36 00:01:57,161 --> 00:02:00,721 Speaker 2: You know, but to unpack where your fear of death 37 00:02:00,801 --> 00:02:03,801 Speaker 2: comes from? Do you think that that does come from 38 00:02:04,001 --> 00:02:07,121 Speaker 2: the health scare of have MS, which you've spoken about publicly. 39 00:02:07,881 --> 00:02:11,161 Speaker 2: Do you think that that's where that fear comes from 40 00:02:11,201 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 2: because you've gone through something so big already to do 41 00:02:15,881 --> 00:02:18,521 Speaker 2: with your own health, so it's like there's almost like 42 00:02:18,561 --> 00:02:23,361 Speaker 2: a grief attached to having MS, and that's when you 43 00:02:23,441 --> 00:02:25,121 Speaker 2: started to Yeah, definitely. 44 00:02:25,841 --> 00:02:31,321 Speaker 1: I even remember whilst waiting for the diagnosis, so waiting 45 00:02:31,401 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: to go back for the results of the. 46 00:02:33,161 --> 00:02:37,081 Speaker 2: MRI, give me exact age for someone that doesn't know Katie, Like, 47 00:02:37,401 --> 00:02:38,921 Speaker 2: give the exact age when. 48 00:02:38,761 --> 00:02:44,161 Speaker 1: You twenty six yeap and even between the symptoms that 49 00:02:44,201 --> 00:02:47,321 Speaker 1: I had, going to the doctor doing the scans and 50 00:02:47,361 --> 00:02:50,761 Speaker 1: then waiting for the results. I felt so much better 51 00:02:50,921 --> 00:02:53,881 Speaker 1: that I was like nothing, I had the appointment to 52 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:55,921 Speaker 1: go into the hospital and get the results. 53 00:02:56,081 --> 00:02:57,881 Speaker 2: I had not a worry in the world. 54 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,241 Speaker 1: Rage Honestly, I was like, that's fine, Like I feel fine, 55 00:03:01,361 --> 00:03:03,921 Speaker 1: like it's going to be nothing, and then it wasn't. 56 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:07,841 Speaker 1: And I think you're right in saying when someone gives 57 00:03:07,841 --> 00:03:13,681 Speaker 1: you news that completely changes your view of where you're 58 00:03:13,721 --> 00:03:17,281 Speaker 1: going in life in that moment, So you wake up 59 00:03:17,281 --> 00:03:20,481 Speaker 1: that morning and everything's fine. You know what your plan 60 00:03:20,641 --> 00:03:22,361 Speaker 1: for life is, you know what you want to do 61 00:03:22,481 --> 00:03:25,041 Speaker 1: next year, you know what job you're in, and you 62 00:03:25,081 --> 00:03:27,281 Speaker 1: know what your future might look like. You're saving money 63 00:03:27,281 --> 00:03:29,881 Speaker 1: for a house or whatever it might be. And then 64 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:34,801 Speaker 1: a medical person can give you information that changes everything. 65 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,641 Speaker 2: The whole trajectory of your life. You go twenty six. 66 00:03:37,921 --> 00:03:42,761 Speaker 1: Oh fuck, I cried for so long wage And this 67 00:03:43,001 --> 00:03:46,041 Speaker 1: episode isn't even about no, but it is because this 68 00:03:46,161 --> 00:03:48,801 Speaker 1: is where I'm coming back to, is that in that 69 00:03:49,001 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: moment when you are a twenty six, your twenty six 70 00:03:51,481 --> 00:03:52,441 Speaker 1: year old version of. 71 00:03:52,361 --> 00:03:56,721 Speaker 2: Yourself, and they deliver you that news, there is a 72 00:03:56,761 --> 00:03:59,481 Speaker 2: grief then that you take upon yourself that there is 73 00:03:59,521 --> 00:04:02,001 Speaker 2: a changing and there's a piece of your life that's 74 00:04:02,281 --> 00:04:05,161 Speaker 2: ending as the way you know it. Then yeah, and 75 00:04:05,161 --> 00:04:08,281 Speaker 2: that's where I'm leading to. So yeah, directly not related 76 00:04:08,321 --> 00:04:11,881 Speaker 2: to the MS challenges with your health, but at the 77 00:04:11,881 --> 00:04:15,481 Speaker 2: same time, it really does put you in a position 78 00:04:15,641 --> 00:04:18,481 Speaker 2: at twenty six with this, I guess a heavy load 79 00:04:18,521 --> 00:04:21,801 Speaker 2: of grief of knowing who you were at that time 80 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 2: and then what life looks like after that. 81 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:28,961 Speaker 1: Yeah, everything changed. Your head goes to some crazy places, 82 00:04:29,041 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: you hit rock bottom. And I remember saying to my 83 00:04:32,281 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 1: husband Jay, I was like, if everything gets that bad, 84 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:37,761 Speaker 1: because you read everything, you google it, you know what 85 00:04:37,801 --> 00:04:39,721 Speaker 1: worst case scenarios are going to be, and you take 86 00:04:39,761 --> 00:04:42,081 Speaker 1: yourself to worst case scenario. I certainly did in that 87 00:04:42,161 --> 00:04:44,721 Speaker 1: moment anyway, And I was like, you know, if I'm 88 00:04:44,761 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: blind and disabled and I can't do anything, can we 89 00:04:48,761 --> 00:04:50,681 Speaker 1: just go to a beach and we just like I 90 00:04:50,801 --> 00:04:54,361 Speaker 1: was desperate, right, Yeah, like I was desperate. You grieve 91 00:04:54,521 --> 00:04:57,761 Speaker 1: the healthy body you had yesterday. You grieve the fact 92 00:04:57,841 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: that your future now looks different, that you're gonna have 93 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:04,561 Speaker 1: hurdles along, you know, Don't get me wrong, You're gonna 94 00:05:04,601 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: have some great times and periods of normal life. But 95 00:05:10,081 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: then you've got to accept that your new life is 96 00:05:12,801 --> 00:05:15,641 Speaker 1: different because there are going to be other things that 97 00:05:15,681 --> 00:05:18,201 Speaker 1: happen on the way, and those things are scary. No 98 00:05:18,281 --> 00:05:21,521 Speaker 1: one can help you. You know, it's an incurable disease. 99 00:05:21,961 --> 00:05:24,801 Speaker 1: So yes, you have doctors and neurologists and all the 100 00:05:24,801 --> 00:05:27,921 Speaker 1: rest of it who can go, oh, this is a 101 00:05:27,961 --> 00:05:30,361 Speaker 1: great medication, or this will do this well. At the 102 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:34,561 Speaker 1: end of the day, they can't fix it firstly, and 103 00:05:34,681 --> 00:05:38,601 Speaker 1: they can't really change what happens. 104 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,681 Speaker 2: They can't. That leads you to that next part of it, 105 00:05:41,761 --> 00:05:46,321 Speaker 2: which is, no one's got what the next stage of 106 00:05:46,361 --> 00:05:48,801 Speaker 2: your life looks like. No, that's right. 107 00:05:48,921 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: That is where's the realization, right, So yes, we're talking 108 00:05:52,801 --> 00:05:56,401 Speaker 1: MS and my own situation, and everybody's got something where 109 00:05:56,401 --> 00:06:00,881 Speaker 1: there's a realization of life's not forever. I'm not in 110 00:06:00,961 --> 00:06:04,361 Speaker 1: control of what's going to happen, and anything can happen 111 00:06:04,401 --> 00:06:06,681 Speaker 1: at any time. And I think the minute you go 112 00:06:06,801 --> 00:06:10,761 Speaker 1: from like you know, a twenties happy go lucky, I'm invincible, 113 00:06:10,961 --> 00:06:14,161 Speaker 1: I've got nothing to worry about, and that's gonna happen 114 00:06:14,201 --> 00:06:18,881 Speaker 1: forever hopefully, then you realize, no, it doesn't and actually, 115 00:06:19,361 --> 00:06:24,961 Speaker 1: something could happen tomorrow, something could happen this afternoon that completely. 116 00:06:24,521 --> 00:06:25,361 Speaker 2: Changes your life. 117 00:06:25,721 --> 00:06:29,161 Speaker 1: And it's a hard thing to try and understand and 118 00:06:29,961 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: make peace with. 119 00:06:31,161 --> 00:06:34,601 Speaker 2: Do you think that The hard place to come from 120 00:06:34,681 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 2: in making peace with it, though, comes from how quickly 121 00:06:39,241 --> 00:06:41,921 Speaker 2: you were thrown into it. So it could be the 122 00:06:41,961 --> 00:06:45,281 Speaker 2: same as losing someone tomorrow, Yeah, and not being able 123 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 2: to say goodbye because it was that quick they got 124 00:06:47,361 --> 00:06:50,601 Speaker 2: taken that quickly that you didn't You didn't say goodbye, 125 00:06:50,681 --> 00:06:52,801 Speaker 2: You didn't tell them that you love them, You didn't 126 00:06:52,801 --> 00:06:56,121 Speaker 2: have the opportunity saying goes for you with your MS. 127 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 2: One day you walk in there twenty six year old, happy, 128 00:06:59,361 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 2: go lucky, having big weekends, live in your best life, 129 00:07:03,601 --> 00:07:05,201 Speaker 2: and then the next day it's taking away from you. 130 00:07:05,521 --> 00:07:07,121 Speaker 2: And when I say it's taken away from you, you 131 00:07:07,161 --> 00:07:10,521 Speaker 2: walk out with no future in that moment control. Yeah, 132 00:07:11,241 --> 00:07:14,881 Speaker 2: So then the emotions that then attached to it leads 133 00:07:14,881 --> 00:07:18,281 Speaker 2: me down that connection path of going there would have 134 00:07:18,361 --> 00:07:21,601 Speaker 2: been a stage of grief in that for you, Yeah, 135 00:07:21,641 --> 00:07:23,961 Speaker 2: because you would have been grieving a life you once 136 00:07:24,041 --> 00:07:27,201 Speaker 2: knew to them, not knowing what the future would look like. 137 00:07:27,881 --> 00:07:30,561 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that until you start doing work 138 00:07:30,601 --> 00:07:33,521 Speaker 1: on that. That can go on for years as well 139 00:07:33,881 --> 00:07:37,161 Speaker 1: in different ways, because yes, things can get better and 140 00:07:37,201 --> 00:07:40,961 Speaker 1: you have you know, periods of time years even where 141 00:07:41,361 --> 00:07:46,001 Speaker 1: you're okay and you're fine, but then it's almost like 142 00:07:46,241 --> 00:07:49,641 Speaker 1: those triggers when something does happen and I know we'll 143 00:07:49,681 --> 00:07:52,001 Speaker 1: go into this in more detail in another episode, but 144 00:07:52,361 --> 00:07:55,921 Speaker 1: you know, something happened for me last year which all 145 00:07:55,961 --> 00:07:58,041 Speaker 1: of a sudden I went back to that place of 146 00:07:58,081 --> 00:08:01,481 Speaker 1: being diagnosed again and it was like, fuck, don't forget. 147 00:08:01,601 --> 00:08:03,561 Speaker 1: This is what you've got and it's going to be 148 00:08:03,681 --> 00:08:06,321 Speaker 1: really shit, you know. Yeah, And so then there's that 149 00:08:06,361 --> 00:08:09,761 Speaker 1: whole grief process all over again. So it's continuous work 150 00:08:09,801 --> 00:08:13,681 Speaker 1: and I feel like every hurdle and every change in 151 00:08:13,721 --> 00:08:17,401 Speaker 1: medication or new symptom and whatever it might be, is 152 00:08:17,481 --> 00:08:20,681 Speaker 1: going to have that. It's a grief, but it's also disappointment. 153 00:08:20,881 --> 00:08:24,121 Speaker 1: You disappointed, and then you try hard to be grateful 154 00:08:24,161 --> 00:08:26,721 Speaker 1: and going, I don't have this, and that's worse. 155 00:08:26,841 --> 00:08:29,721 Speaker 2: And it was like a big halt for you because 156 00:08:29,721 --> 00:08:32,081 Speaker 2: it was like your body was going, no, this is 157 00:08:32,121 --> 00:08:36,281 Speaker 2: no longer working. You need to redirect how you're looking 158 00:08:36,321 --> 00:08:38,121 Speaker 2: at this, what you're doing with your body and what 159 00:08:38,121 --> 00:08:41,161 Speaker 2: you're going to do going forward. And it was like, 160 00:08:41,281 --> 00:08:44,641 Speaker 2: I don't remember sitting there with you crying, not like 161 00:08:44,721 --> 00:08:46,761 Speaker 2: i'd lost you, but at the same time I had 162 00:08:46,761 --> 00:08:48,681 Speaker 2: a little bit of grief there for you, going like 163 00:08:48,841 --> 00:08:51,121 Speaker 2: is this it? Like? Is this the future? Like I 164 00:08:51,281 --> 00:08:54,201 Speaker 2: was sad for you, So I can't imagine what you 165 00:08:54,241 --> 00:08:56,841 Speaker 2: were feeling in terms of like your emotions with that 166 00:08:56,961 --> 00:09:00,681 Speaker 2: as well. Yeah, it's heavy, right. 167 00:09:00,961 --> 00:09:03,601 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think when you talk about stages of grief, 168 00:09:03,681 --> 00:09:07,401 Speaker 1: I guess the similarities are you go through stages of 169 00:09:07,561 --> 00:09:10,801 Speaker 1: being angry. Yeah, you go through stages of being really 170 00:09:10,841 --> 00:09:14,921 Speaker 1: fucking sad about it and being out of control and 171 00:09:15,281 --> 00:09:18,881 Speaker 1: realizing that actually there's nothing you can do about it. 172 00:09:18,921 --> 00:09:20,921 Speaker 2: So she leads you back to that whole thing of 173 00:09:21,001 --> 00:09:23,881 Speaker 2: going like, you have a level of what you can 174 00:09:23,921 --> 00:09:25,961 Speaker 2: do every day when you show up in this world, 175 00:09:26,521 --> 00:09:28,801 Speaker 2: you have control over that, how you show up, what 176 00:09:28,801 --> 00:09:30,801 Speaker 2: you put in your body, how you move it. The 177 00:09:30,921 --> 00:09:34,401 Speaker 2: little key players add up to the bigger picture. But really, 178 00:09:34,481 --> 00:09:37,961 Speaker 2: at the end of the day, who knows what happens tomorrow, Right, 179 00:09:38,041 --> 00:09:40,601 Speaker 2: That's what it is. And I think you know, going 180 00:09:40,681 --> 00:09:42,681 Speaker 2: back to that, you know, for you it was at 181 00:09:42,721 --> 00:09:47,001 Speaker 2: twenty six and then I look at it and go, me, 182 00:09:47,081 --> 00:09:50,241 Speaker 2: at twenty six, I don't think I even knew what 183 00:09:50,281 --> 00:09:53,481 Speaker 2: it would feel like to grieve. So, like if I 184 00:09:53,601 --> 00:09:56,001 Speaker 2: was to say to you, looking back on you know, 185 00:09:56,041 --> 00:09:57,881 Speaker 2: your twenty five year old self, did you know how 186 00:09:57,921 --> 00:10:01,681 Speaker 2: you were going to handle grief when it hits you? Right? 187 00:10:02,161 --> 00:10:04,601 Speaker 2: And then like for some of us when we think 188 00:10:05,161 --> 00:10:08,601 Speaker 2: if we think death and loss of another, and I 189 00:10:08,641 --> 00:10:10,641 Speaker 2: think that you sort of don't know how you're going 190 00:10:10,681 --> 00:10:12,841 Speaker 2: to respond to it until you're in it. Yeah, So 191 00:10:13,081 --> 00:10:15,841 Speaker 2: until you've lost that person, or you've lost the animal 192 00:10:15,881 --> 00:10:18,081 Speaker 2: that you love the most, or you've you know, been 193 00:10:18,161 --> 00:10:21,201 Speaker 2: diagnosed with something that you go, this is incurable and 194 00:10:21,241 --> 00:10:22,801 Speaker 2: I have to now live with this for the rest 195 00:10:22,801 --> 00:10:24,681 Speaker 2: of my life. How do I manage that? 196 00:10:24,921 --> 00:10:28,441 Speaker 1: There's also grief in splitting up with people, there's grief 197 00:10:28,481 --> 00:10:33,361 Speaker 1: and divorce. So in two thousand and fourteen, my mom 198 00:10:33,401 --> 00:10:37,441 Speaker 1: passed away. This is an interesting one because losing a 199 00:10:37,561 --> 00:10:44,481 Speaker 1: parent it's almost like abandonment feeling there right, because I mean, 200 00:10:44,521 --> 00:10:48,041 Speaker 1: if you're lucky, you have these two people that love 201 00:10:48,081 --> 00:10:53,041 Speaker 1: you and there's kind of no one really like parents. 202 00:10:53,121 --> 00:10:55,561 Speaker 1: When you think about who's going to have your back 203 00:10:55,601 --> 00:10:59,281 Speaker 1: in your life, and for me, my mom and dad 204 00:11:00,001 --> 00:11:02,881 Speaker 1: were that. You know, when you think something really fucking 205 00:11:03,001 --> 00:11:06,241 Speaker 1: terrible happened, you can always go to them and they'll 206 00:11:06,281 --> 00:11:09,601 Speaker 1: help you out, whether it be emotionally financially even. Is 207 00:11:09,641 --> 00:11:11,761 Speaker 1: there anyone in your life that you would go to 208 00:11:11,921 --> 00:11:15,001 Speaker 1: for money if times were really hard other than your parents? 209 00:11:15,041 --> 00:11:17,681 Speaker 2: Probably not. Yeah. So when my mom. 210 00:11:17,601 --> 00:11:21,041 Speaker 1: Died, so she had Parkinson's disease. She then got dementia, 211 00:11:21,321 --> 00:11:23,681 Speaker 1: so she had to be in a nursing home. There's 212 00:11:23,721 --> 00:11:25,881 Speaker 1: so much guilt you go through for that as well. 213 00:11:25,881 --> 00:11:29,841 Speaker 1: By the way, like putting your parent in a nursing 214 00:11:29,921 --> 00:11:34,721 Speaker 1: home when she wasn't even sixty at age, that's young, 215 00:11:35,321 --> 00:11:37,481 Speaker 1: feels like a very selfish thing to do. 216 00:11:38,281 --> 00:11:40,241 Speaker 2: I can see how that would feel, Yeah. 217 00:11:40,041 --> 00:11:43,041 Speaker 1: Because there's a part of me that's like, she should 218 00:11:43,081 --> 00:11:45,961 Speaker 1: have just lived with you. But there's also that piece 219 00:11:46,001 --> 00:11:49,081 Speaker 1: of you have to have a life too, and that 220 00:11:49,161 --> 00:11:51,801 Speaker 1: could go on for twenty thirty. 221 00:11:51,761 --> 00:11:55,001 Speaker 2: Yearssually if they are physically able. 222 00:11:54,961 --> 00:11:59,121 Speaker 1: And look, Parkinson's disease is fucked. That's a horrible disease. 223 00:11:59,681 --> 00:12:00,641 Speaker 1: Dementia's fucked. 224 00:12:00,681 --> 00:12:02,721 Speaker 2: I was going to say, demension is so horrible. Yeah, 225 00:12:03,561 --> 00:12:06,641 Speaker 2: you know, talking about grief. A friend of ours, her 226 00:12:07,001 --> 00:12:12,641 Speaker 2: dad has dementia, and it's now at that point that 227 00:12:12,761 --> 00:12:14,841 Speaker 2: it is pretty much taking it over. And I was like, 228 00:12:14,921 --> 00:12:16,601 Speaker 2: and she was like, I'm just so sad. And I 229 00:12:16,641 --> 00:12:20,081 Speaker 2: was like, absolutely sad because you've started the grieving process 230 00:12:20,961 --> 00:12:24,561 Speaker 2: because physically your dad is here, but mentally your dad 231 00:12:24,641 --> 00:12:28,201 Speaker 2: is gone. Yeah. I can't even imagine to start to 232 00:12:28,241 --> 00:12:31,961 Speaker 2: know what that feels like, because you've still got him here, 233 00:12:32,161 --> 00:12:36,041 Speaker 2: You're still looking at him, he's still like you think 234 00:12:36,121 --> 00:12:38,681 Speaker 2: what you're going to receive back is something else, and 235 00:12:38,761 --> 00:12:40,881 Speaker 2: then you don't actually know what you're going to get 236 00:12:40,881 --> 00:12:43,761 Speaker 2: from him every single day. And I was like, that's 237 00:12:43,801 --> 00:12:44,361 Speaker 2: really tough. 238 00:12:44,641 --> 00:12:47,881 Speaker 1: We've all seen people with dementia, you know, like you 239 00:12:48,001 --> 00:12:50,961 Speaker 1: might see someone in the streets or wherever it might be, 240 00:12:51,041 --> 00:12:53,401 Speaker 1: and you're like, oh, bless him, you know, but you 241 00:12:53,601 --> 00:12:57,801 Speaker 1: haven't seen that person in their twenties or in their thirties, 242 00:12:57,921 --> 00:13:00,921 Speaker 1: or at the highlight of their career or being a 243 00:13:00,961 --> 00:13:04,841 Speaker 1: parent doing these normal, very high functioning things. There was 244 00:13:04,841 --> 00:13:07,041 Speaker 1: a lady that used to live down the road from us, 245 00:13:07,121 --> 00:13:09,881 Speaker 1: and she used to walk past in a ninety every 246 00:13:09,921 --> 00:13:12,041 Speaker 1: single day and she'd be talking to herself and she'd 247 00:13:12,041 --> 00:13:15,121 Speaker 1: be away with the fairies. It takes a while before 248 00:13:15,161 --> 00:13:17,481 Speaker 1: you go, oh wow. Imagine if she might have been 249 00:13:17,521 --> 00:13:21,041 Speaker 1: a teacher, she could have been a nurse, like she 250 00:13:21,361 --> 00:13:24,121 Speaker 1: probably did a very normal job at some point in 251 00:13:24,161 --> 00:13:26,801 Speaker 1: her life. And so when it's a family member, like 252 00:13:26,841 --> 00:13:29,801 Speaker 1: with Mum, it's heartbreaking when you see somebody like that. 253 00:13:29,881 --> 00:13:33,241 Speaker 1: My mum was a teacher and she was very highly 254 00:13:33,281 --> 00:13:36,681 Speaker 1: respected in what she did. And to then see her 255 00:13:37,281 --> 00:13:39,441 Speaker 1: she got nail polished and she'd say, I'm going to 256 00:13:39,481 --> 00:13:42,601 Speaker 1: paint my nails and then she would paint the side 257 00:13:42,641 --> 00:13:44,081 Speaker 1: of the nail polish bottle. 258 00:13:44,481 --> 00:13:44,561 Speaker 2: Oh. 259 00:13:44,921 --> 00:13:48,361 Speaker 1: And to see her doing things like that and trying 260 00:13:48,401 --> 00:13:51,521 Speaker 1: to cook fish and chips in a toaster, you know, 261 00:13:51,921 --> 00:13:55,161 Speaker 1: it's like, oh my god, wild ride. Yeah, it is 262 00:13:55,201 --> 00:13:57,761 Speaker 1: a world ride. So I think when Mom died, I 263 00:13:57,961 --> 00:14:02,121 Speaker 1: more so grieved the illnesses that she had and the 264 00:14:02,201 --> 00:14:06,281 Speaker 1: life that I felt was so unfair than the actual 265 00:14:06,321 --> 00:14:10,121 Speaker 1: death itself. Because although I was really really sad that 266 00:14:10,201 --> 00:14:15,121 Speaker 1: she died, there was an element of relief that she 267 00:14:15,241 --> 00:14:18,841 Speaker 1: didn't have to go through that anymore. And there's little things. 268 00:14:18,961 --> 00:14:22,641 Speaker 1: Rach I went to her room. So she was in 269 00:14:22,641 --> 00:14:24,441 Speaker 1: a care home, but I went to her room to 270 00:14:24,521 --> 00:14:27,201 Speaker 1: pack up her things after she passed away, and her 271 00:14:27,201 --> 00:14:30,001 Speaker 1: glasses were still on the bedside table, and her slippers 272 00:14:30,001 --> 00:14:31,881 Speaker 1: were still on the floor. And it was things like 273 00:14:31,961 --> 00:14:34,841 Speaker 1: that that just made me go, oh my god. Christmas 274 00:14:34,841 --> 00:14:38,761 Speaker 1: card that I had sent her was on the bed 275 00:14:38,761 --> 00:14:41,281 Speaker 1: and she hadn't opened it, had just been put on 276 00:14:41,281 --> 00:14:43,121 Speaker 1: her bed. And she'd been taken to hospital. And she 277 00:14:43,161 --> 00:14:48,001 Speaker 1: died of pneumonia within three days, which also is a 278 00:14:48,121 --> 00:14:52,281 Speaker 1: very interesting sign of her body just had given up, 279 00:14:52,481 --> 00:14:55,801 Speaker 1: because most people can have antibiotics for pneumonia and just 280 00:14:55,801 --> 00:14:57,321 Speaker 1: get over it and get on with life. 281 00:14:57,441 --> 00:15:00,641 Speaker 2: Do you think that the grief process though, when you say, 282 00:15:01,201 --> 00:15:04,041 Speaker 2: for you, when she passed, there was relief in it, 283 00:15:04,201 --> 00:15:06,641 Speaker 2: that was because you'd been grieving it for so long 284 00:15:06,761 --> 00:15:07,801 Speaker 2: prior to them. 285 00:15:08,281 --> 00:15:13,721 Speaker 1: Yeah, leaving interesting emotion when she died, although I was 286 00:15:13,841 --> 00:15:17,521 Speaker 1: really really sad. I remember saying, I just feel so lonely. 287 00:15:17,641 --> 00:15:20,881 Speaker 1: I feel so lonely. I remember my sister saying for 288 00:15:20,961 --> 00:15:23,681 Speaker 1: I'm here, and I'm like, yeah, it didn't matter how 289 00:15:23,681 --> 00:15:26,401 Speaker 1: many people were there or how many messages I got 290 00:15:26,561 --> 00:15:31,121 Speaker 1: or who I spoke to, the feeling of loneliness is 291 00:15:31,641 --> 00:15:32,841 Speaker 1: really crazy. 292 00:15:33,241 --> 00:15:35,001 Speaker 2: I think there is a part of it that feels 293 00:15:35,001 --> 00:15:38,721 Speaker 2: really isolating you, genuinely, and that I believe is part 294 00:15:38,721 --> 00:15:42,161 Speaker 2: of it that links with loneliness, is you feel so isolated, 295 00:15:42,201 --> 00:15:44,281 Speaker 2: you feel like you're the only one going through it, 296 00:15:44,321 --> 00:15:46,641 Speaker 2: and you think you're the only one that understands it 297 00:15:47,041 --> 00:15:49,121 Speaker 2: and that no one else is getting it because they're 298 00:15:49,121 --> 00:15:51,681 Speaker 2: not to the degree that you are. Because it's your grief, 299 00:15:51,761 --> 00:15:54,401 Speaker 2: it's your emotion, it's your feelings that are attached to it. 300 00:15:54,681 --> 00:15:57,281 Speaker 2: And I think for me, like the loneliness a part 301 00:15:57,281 --> 00:15:59,321 Speaker 2: of it and how you would have been feeling is 302 00:15:59,361 --> 00:16:02,201 Speaker 2: a little bit to do with that isolation. And when 303 00:16:02,241 --> 00:16:05,041 Speaker 2: you're going through it, so many people are there for you, 304 00:16:05,121 --> 00:16:08,361 Speaker 2: there for you, and then after everyone returns back to 305 00:16:08,401 --> 00:16:10,961 Speaker 2: their own busy lives, that's when it can feel so 306 00:16:11,161 --> 00:16:13,761 Speaker 2: lonely the most because you're like, I'm still here, I'm 307 00:16:13,801 --> 00:16:16,041 Speaker 2: still in it, and it's only been a couple of weeks, 308 00:16:16,041 --> 00:16:18,801 Speaker 2: and you're like, you know, it's almost like there's an 309 00:16:18,881 --> 00:16:20,841 Speaker 2: element of loneliness. 310 00:16:20,401 --> 00:16:23,961 Speaker 1: That safety's gone, that person that will always have your back, 311 00:16:24,001 --> 00:16:26,961 Speaker 1: that will always be there for you. It didn't matter 312 00:16:27,041 --> 00:16:29,801 Speaker 1: how many people were around. I've got kids, I've got 313 00:16:29,841 --> 00:16:33,681 Speaker 1: a husband, you know, other family, my dad. I felt 314 00:16:33,721 --> 00:16:35,721 Speaker 1: like I was by myself. I was on my own 315 00:16:35,761 --> 00:16:37,561 Speaker 1: and there was nothing I can do about it. I'm 316 00:16:37,601 --> 00:16:40,521 Speaker 1: all by myself now. I had a dream, Rach. I 317 00:16:40,721 --> 00:16:43,561 Speaker 1: cried for so long when my mom passed away, and 318 00:16:43,601 --> 00:16:47,081 Speaker 1: I went to bed one night. And it's going to 319 00:16:47,121 --> 00:16:50,881 Speaker 1: make me emotion all the story, but I went to 320 00:16:50,921 --> 00:16:54,881 Speaker 1: bed that night and I had a dream. No, I'm 321 00:16:54,921 --> 00:16:58,081 Speaker 1: not a religious person. I don't know how I feel 322 00:16:58,081 --> 00:17:02,001 Speaker 1: about spirituits. And I went for ages, Rach, waking up 323 00:17:02,001 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: in the night thinking, please, Mum, just be sitting on 324 00:17:04,641 --> 00:17:05,041 Speaker 1: the end of it. 325 00:17:05,521 --> 00:17:07,961 Speaker 2: Like I really wanting for that connection. 326 00:17:08,161 --> 00:17:11,441 Speaker 1: Yeah, And when it didn't happen, I was like, please Mum, 327 00:17:11,481 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: go sit on the kid's beds. I wanted them to 328 00:17:13,481 --> 00:17:15,481 Speaker 1: tell me stories about Grandma being on the end of 329 00:17:15,521 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 1: the bed. And that never happened either. And I had 330 00:17:18,281 --> 00:17:23,041 Speaker 1: this dream that night. And in the dream, I was 331 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:26,521 Speaker 1: in like a stairwell of a pump block or something, 332 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:32,761 Speaker 1: and I walked down the steps and I saw mom. 333 00:17:33,001 --> 00:17:36,041 Speaker 1: Mom was there and I went, oh my god, Mom, 334 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 1: I miss you so much, and she went, I know 335 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: you do, Darling, I see you. And I woke up 336 00:17:43,241 --> 00:17:46,160 Speaker 1: that next morning rage and didn't cry after that, Like 337 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:47,201 Speaker 1: I didn't cry that night. 338 00:17:47,241 --> 00:17:48,801 Speaker 2: I felt so relieved. 339 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,321 Speaker 1: It was like she was saying to me, I know 340 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,041 Speaker 1: you're really sad, and I see you and I'm here still. 341 00:17:54,921 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, reaffirming giving you that reaffirming that you 342 00:17:59,561 --> 00:18:02,201 Speaker 2: need at that time, and whether you look for it 343 00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 2: or whether you receive it, or whether you're open to 344 00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:09,001 Speaker 2: receiving it is another thing that key player to the 345 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 2: stages of grief and the grief. When I say processing, 346 00:18:11,921 --> 00:18:14,801 Speaker 2: it's individual, it's so individual for each and every one 347 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,400 Speaker 2: of us in how we process grief. If we choose 348 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,161 Speaker 2: to process grief. A lot of people think that they 349 00:18:20,321 --> 00:18:23,281 Speaker 2: can never let go because if they let go, they're 350 00:18:23,321 --> 00:18:25,441 Speaker 2: going to be gone. You know. For me, the way 351 00:18:25,481 --> 00:18:27,281 Speaker 2: that I look at it, I look at it and going, 352 00:18:27,441 --> 00:18:30,281 Speaker 2: they're never going to leave us because we loved them, 353 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,361 Speaker 2: we love them. There's much to grieve them. There's much. 354 00:18:33,761 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 2: There's a part of it that I see as it's 355 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:39,921 Speaker 2: still love, whether they're here on this earth or whether 356 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:44,321 Speaker 2: they're not no longer with us. I was blessed enough 357 00:18:44,360 --> 00:18:46,321 Speaker 2: to have them in my life for that long, to 358 00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 2: be able to love as hard as I did, and 359 00:18:48,721 --> 00:18:51,041 Speaker 2: then now that they're not here, it doesn't change my 360 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,521 Speaker 2: love for them. It just means I have to sort 361 00:18:54,561 --> 00:18:57,441 Speaker 2: of say it to a different version of them rather 362 00:18:57,481 --> 00:18:59,841 Speaker 2: than you know, directly over the fact. Don't get me wrong, 363 00:18:59,921 --> 00:19:02,921 Speaker 2: I would love that interaction back. But I think there 364 00:19:03,001 --> 00:19:05,160 Speaker 2: is a part of it that comes with grief that 365 00:19:05,201 --> 00:19:07,881 Speaker 2: you sort of look at and go should I wouldn't 366 00:19:07,921 --> 00:19:10,441 Speaker 2: have had this feeling of grief if I hadn't had 367 00:19:10,481 --> 00:19:13,881 Speaker 2: the love to start with with. Love has to come lost. 368 00:19:14,801 --> 00:19:17,281 Speaker 2: I think that when you have lost, it shows how 369 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 2: much you've loved, and I think that is such an 370 00:19:20,801 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 2: important part of grief. It shifts your identity. It gives 371 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 2: you a really big, what the actual fuck moment? And 372 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:30,801 Speaker 2: if you do not take that on board, and I'm 373 00:19:30,801 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 2: only saying this after losing my brother not that long ago, 374 00:19:34,561 --> 00:19:37,561 Speaker 2: it gives you perspective on life. And if you don't 375 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:42,680 Speaker 2: get that perspective, it's almost like you're waiting for even 376 00:19:42,721 --> 00:19:44,881 Speaker 2: more of a slap in the face. If you don't 377 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,360 Speaker 2: get perspective with grief, I don't know what's going to 378 00:19:47,441 --> 00:19:47,640 Speaker 2: do it. 379 00:19:47,721 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 1: There's also a shock factor as well. I think with grief, 380 00:19:51,001 --> 00:19:54,201 Speaker 1: like there's an element of shock and kind of almost 381 00:19:54,281 --> 00:19:57,881 Speaker 1: like a can't believe this is happening now. My mum 382 00:19:58,001 --> 00:20:00,160 Speaker 1: was a bit different because she was older and she 383 00:20:00,281 --> 00:20:01,041 Speaker 1: was very sick. 384 00:20:01,321 --> 00:20:03,961 Speaker 2: She was in a nursing home, and you know. 385 00:20:04,001 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: As horrible as a was, she'd raised her two children. 386 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: We were both married, we both have kids, and you know, 387 00:20:10,961 --> 00:20:12,801 Speaker 1: I remember my cousin saying. 388 00:20:12,921 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 2: She had fifty really great years. Yeah. 389 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: Aye, guys, your brother was a real shock factor. And 390 00:20:21,241 --> 00:20:25,321 Speaker 1: I think, like for you, I've seen what you've been 391 00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 1: going from, but even for someone like me who's just 392 00:20:28,241 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 1: a friend, like not a family member. I didn't grow 393 00:20:30,921 --> 00:20:33,321 Speaker 1: up with him. It's not my brother, but there was 394 00:20:33,481 --> 00:20:37,561 Speaker 1: a real shock of this guy is only forty, he's 395 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:42,121 Speaker 1: got two very young kids, a family that loves him, 396 00:20:42,241 --> 00:20:48,281 Speaker 1: everything going for him. Fit, healthy, active, and he got 397 00:20:48,481 --> 00:20:51,561 Speaker 1: brain cancer. That was a fucking shock. 398 00:20:51,801 --> 00:20:54,401 Speaker 2: Yeah, he had a really big health scar and that's 399 00:20:54,441 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 2: what got him into the hospital finally, and that's how 400 00:20:56,561 --> 00:21:00,801 Speaker 2: the diagnosis came. Right. This guy was stoic, stubborn, but stoic, 401 00:21:01,321 --> 00:21:04,640 Speaker 2: and I think there was an element of grieving him 402 00:21:04,681 --> 00:21:08,481 Speaker 2: from the moment of that diagnosis, because his whole identity 403 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 2: changed from that moment. It just changes. It changes who 404 00:21:12,681 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 2: you are, It changes the people around you, It changes 405 00:21:15,001 --> 00:21:18,721 Speaker 2: the relationships. There's a whole part of your own grief 406 00:21:18,801 --> 00:21:21,041 Speaker 2: journey that goes, why won't you listen to me? Why 407 00:21:21,041 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 2: won't you do what I'm telling you to do. There's 408 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 2: so much learning in it of stepping back and going 409 00:21:27,001 --> 00:21:31,241 Speaker 2: because it's not my journey, this is his. These are 410 00:21:31,241 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 2: his decisions. You have to support them no matter what 411 00:21:35,801 --> 00:21:36,401 Speaker 2: the outcome. 412 00:21:36,681 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 1: Everyone was desperate to do their own research and find 413 00:21:39,721 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 1: out this. Oh people with cancer must get sick of 414 00:21:42,481 --> 00:21:45,201 Speaker 1: people going, oh, have you tried green and smoothie? 415 00:21:45,201 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 2: You know who? 416 00:21:45,681 --> 00:21:48,161 Speaker 1: Like, there's always something that you go this could help, 417 00:21:48,201 --> 00:21:51,561 Speaker 1: that could help out CBD oil, I think Yeah. For Lee, 418 00:21:52,001 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 1: it was a case of no, this is what I'm 419 00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:54,921 Speaker 1: deciding to do. 420 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,001 Speaker 2: Took me a lot to get there, Yeah, because I 421 00:21:57,041 --> 00:21:59,880 Speaker 2: was like, no, no, no, let's go this way. You're looking 422 00:21:59,921 --> 00:22:02,121 Speaker 2: at your paths and you're going, what if we took this? 423 00:22:02,441 --> 00:22:02,761 Speaker 1: Yeah? 424 00:22:02,761 --> 00:22:04,880 Speaker 2: What if? Why do you want to do this path? 425 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 2: There's ego that comes into it. There's selfishness within yourself 426 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 2: going like I know better. I didn't know any better, 427 00:22:13,360 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 2: but I was fucking desperate yeah, I was desperate to 428 00:22:16,521 --> 00:22:19,321 Speaker 2: make it better. I was desperate to help him. There's 429 00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 2: a desperation in the early stages of a diagnosis, and 430 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,201 Speaker 2: I believe like there's you know, probably key elements of grief. 431 00:22:27,281 --> 00:22:31,041 Speaker 2: Let's start in that, because especially a terminal diagnosis. Yeah, 432 00:22:31,041 --> 00:22:33,961 Speaker 2: it was straight up. It was just like you feel 433 00:22:33,961 --> 00:22:35,921 Speaker 2: like your casun, you got no way out. And I'm 434 00:22:35,921 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 2: not even the one going through it, you know, having 435 00:22:38,241 --> 00:22:41,121 Speaker 2: his wife and his two babies first and foremost are 436 00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:44,561 Speaker 2: in the thick of it the most, and even take 437 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 2: away the wife and the kids, he is the person 438 00:22:48,761 --> 00:22:49,281 Speaker 2: living it. 439 00:22:49,801 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 1: And the most you know, inspiring person I have ever 440 00:22:54,521 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: talk about people's legacy and what they are here to 441 00:22:58,360 --> 00:23:02,120 Speaker 1: do on this earth. And even just me, like not 442 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,721 Speaker 1: a family member, haven't known him, you know, for hadn't 443 00:23:05,721 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: known him for very long, the impact he had on 444 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: just in my life, yeah, and his mindset, and he 445 00:23:12,961 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 1: was very much like, yeah, okay, well they've told me 446 00:23:15,241 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: nine months whatever it was, No, that's not me. I'm 447 00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 1: not ready to go anywhere. And he had, oh my god, 448 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:25,281 Speaker 1: intention until was it three years ye three years later, 449 00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:28,921 Speaker 1: when it was right at the almost the very end, 450 00:23:29,441 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: he still was I keeping going. 451 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,681 Speaker 2: He would have like good days and then really bad 452 00:23:35,761 --> 00:23:39,761 Speaker 2: days and then like down, up, down, and you'd watch 453 00:23:39,801 --> 00:23:43,001 Speaker 2: him and it's like his own grief. You would be 454 00:23:43,041 --> 00:23:45,761 Speaker 2: in it with him, like you'd be dealing with your own, 455 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,801 Speaker 2: but then you'd be trying to like accommodate his because 456 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 2: he was grieving. He was grieving from the moment he 457 00:23:51,241 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 2: got the diagnosis, and he would have good days and 458 00:23:54,241 --> 00:23:56,400 Speaker 2: then he would have bad and then it would be 459 00:23:56,441 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 2: like you'd get some positive news and then it'd just 460 00:23:58,481 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 2: be like so bad, and you're trying to manage your 461 00:24:02,120 --> 00:24:05,640 Speaker 2: own emotions and your own grief and that anger nothing 462 00:24:05,681 --> 00:24:08,281 Speaker 2: will change it, and you know you're going through all 463 00:24:08,321 --> 00:24:12,321 Speaker 2: of this, and but then you're trying to like console him, 464 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 2: knowing that he's got to go through it just the 465 00:24:14,761 --> 00:24:18,120 Speaker 2: same that on a completely different level. Yeah, And his 466 00:24:18,241 --> 00:24:22,321 Speaker 2: grief was leaving this earth, leaving his boys, leaving his 467 00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:26,281 Speaker 2: wife and his family. So I think you know that 468 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,561 Speaker 2: part of it just shows that grief, it doesn't have 469 00:24:29,801 --> 00:24:33,961 Speaker 2: just one definition. It's not linear like it's it's in everything. 470 00:24:33,681 --> 00:24:35,961 Speaker 1: When you talk about grief for you, and the fact 471 00:24:36,001 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 1: that that was a three year time so it was 472 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,281 Speaker 1: this is what he's got and it's terminal. There's a 473 00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:47,281 Speaker 1: whole grief process there. There's the grief process that goes along, 474 00:24:47,721 --> 00:24:51,481 Speaker 1: but there's also a very confusing part when things get 475 00:24:51,561 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: better or there's new medications or there's a trial he 476 00:24:54,521 --> 00:24:55,321 Speaker 1: can go on. 477 00:24:55,721 --> 00:24:57,120 Speaker 2: That is, oh, you're living at that hope. 478 00:24:57,201 --> 00:25:01,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a very confusing hope situation because then you 479 00:25:01,201 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 1: get another test result and it's like bam, grief again. 480 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,801 Speaker 2: I look at it this way, Katie and go. I 481 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 2: had three years to say goodbye. There was cherished moments 482 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 2: in there that I am so thankful for. And some 483 00:25:17,521 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 2: people don't get that, you know, the extremes of the 484 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 2: world that we live in today, like you know, you 485 00:25:25,241 --> 00:25:27,561 Speaker 2: don't know if today's the last day on Earth, and 486 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,961 Speaker 2: those people that grieve the loss of someone and never 487 00:25:30,961 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 2: get to say goodbye. I feel like that is a 488 00:25:34,120 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 2: way in itself, Like I feel gratitude having three years 489 00:25:37,681 --> 00:25:43,681 Speaker 2: to say goodbye, and because the griefs done it, then 490 00:25:44,120 --> 00:25:46,241 Speaker 2: you go through it for the three years you're all 491 00:25:46,241 --> 00:25:53,360 Speaker 2: fighting this beast and then you lose them physically, just physically. 492 00:25:54,561 --> 00:25:57,561 Speaker 2: There's a part of it that shows that, you know, 493 00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:58,641 Speaker 2: for me, I looked. 494 00:25:58,441 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 3: At it and go well, I was really lucky to 495 00:26:00,961 --> 00:26:06,880 Speaker 3: have three years to say goodbye and to process grief 496 00:26:06,961 --> 00:26:11,161 Speaker 3: with them, because there were so many moments in those 497 00:26:11,201 --> 00:26:15,961 Speaker 3: three years that you could you could process it together, 498 00:26:16,481 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 3: like if you were willing to go there, because it's 499 00:26:18,921 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 3: hard to get there into those conversations and those moments 500 00:26:22,481 --> 00:26:22,841 Speaker 3: which you. 501 00:26:22,801 --> 00:26:24,521 Speaker 2: Really don't want to talk about. You don't want to 502 00:26:24,521 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 2: show light too. You got to be strong, yeah, and 503 00:26:27,201 --> 00:26:29,721 Speaker 2: he was like that. I didn't want anyone crying around, 504 00:26:30,041 --> 00:26:31,721 Speaker 2: and he would be looking at me right now, going 505 00:26:31,961 --> 00:26:34,640 Speaker 2: stop crying. And there was a pressure to be strong 506 00:26:34,681 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 2: in that, you know, and he was stoic and that 507 00:26:37,001 --> 00:26:39,041 Speaker 2: was the way that he did it. So even knowing 508 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,001 Speaker 2: like we would be sitting out the back, we both 509 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,001 Speaker 2: knew deep down we're about to go into one of 510 00:26:43,001 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 2: those conversations and we needed to have those conversations between 511 00:26:46,521 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 2: him and I before he left this earth. We needed 512 00:26:49,481 --> 00:26:52,120 Speaker 2: to fix some pieces to the puzzle. There was that 513 00:26:52,241 --> 00:26:55,761 Speaker 2: pressure of like strength that you would have to hold together. 514 00:26:55,801 --> 00:26:58,721 Speaker 2: But at the same time I now look back and go, shit, man. 515 00:26:58,801 --> 00:27:03,201 Speaker 2: They were such big parts of the grief of losing him, 516 00:27:03,321 --> 00:27:05,281 Speaker 2: but I was so lucky to do it with him. 517 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 2: I can't imagine what it's like to sit there in 518 00:27:07,721 --> 00:27:11,801 Speaker 2: question marks of not knowing and not being able to 519 00:27:11,801 --> 00:27:15,001 Speaker 2: have like a level of closure together. You know, I 520 00:27:15,041 --> 00:27:18,761 Speaker 2: look at that with gratitude and love. You know, there's 521 00:27:18,761 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 2: still moments in it where I like, you know, the 522 00:27:21,281 --> 00:27:26,640 Speaker 2: anniversaries and then or like songs or like smells or 523 00:27:27,321 --> 00:27:30,041 Speaker 2: you know, seeing like a feather drop from the sky 524 00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:34,561 Speaker 2: but there's no birds and you're like, hey, mate, you 525 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:41,041 Speaker 2: know that and itself is like something so special. Yeah, 526 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,481 Speaker 2: and you know, like we've got another friend. And black 527 00:27:43,521 --> 00:27:47,521 Speaker 2: and white butterflies is her for her mum, and no 528 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,121 Speaker 2: word to like. I can tell you I've been on 529 00:27:50,201 --> 00:27:52,041 Speaker 2: walks and then out of nowhere it will be like 530 00:27:52,041 --> 00:27:54,481 Speaker 2: this big black and white butterfly and it's like fluttering 531 00:27:54,521 --> 00:27:56,721 Speaker 2: in my face. And I can tell you on three 532 00:27:56,761 --> 00:28:00,120 Speaker 2: different occasions that's happened on three different walks. I'm so 533 00:28:00,241 --> 00:28:01,360 Speaker 2: interested in those things. 534 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,761 Speaker 1: When my mom died, I was flying over from Brisbane 535 00:28:05,921 --> 00:28:10,201 Speaker 1: to London. I'd stopped in Singapore, I'd called my sister Yep, 536 00:28:10,281 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 1: she's okay, and then got on the next flight and 537 00:28:14,041 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: all I wanted Rachel was to give her a cuddle. 538 00:28:16,120 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 2: I knew she wasn't gonna make it. 539 00:28:17,321 --> 00:28:19,441 Speaker 1: I just I was desperately getting over that. I jumped 540 00:28:19,441 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: on a flight that evening when the doctor said it's 541 00:28:22,201 --> 00:28:26,920 Speaker 1: not looking good. And I woke up. I was about 542 00:28:26,961 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: four hours from landing, and I looked up and I 543 00:28:30,120 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: saw this light and look, it was probably like a 544 00:28:33,721 --> 00:28:36,321 Speaker 1: watch reflected like it looked like that. Yeah, but I 545 00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:38,841 Speaker 1: had this real strong feeling of oh, no, I think 546 00:28:38,921 --> 00:28:43,361 Speaker 1: Mum's gone. I obviously couldn't know anything until I landed. 547 00:28:43,841 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 1: And when I landed, I got like a couple of 548 00:28:46,961 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: messages that were just a bit strange. There were a 549 00:28:49,721 --> 00:28:51,761 Speaker 1: couple of people at the airport waiting for me that 550 00:28:51,801 --> 00:28:53,561 Speaker 1: I wasn't expecting, and I thought, I was like, oh 551 00:28:53,601 --> 00:28:54,361 Speaker 1: my god. 552 00:28:54,761 --> 00:28:56,121 Speaker 2: But yeah, she had died. 553 00:28:56,161 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: Then there's another one where my uncle died and my 554 00:29:00,321 --> 00:29:03,081 Speaker 1: uncle loved Robin's and my auntie bought us all like 555 00:29:03,121 --> 00:29:06,641 Speaker 1: a robin in memory of him. And when they were 556 00:29:06,681 --> 00:29:08,761 Speaker 1: cleaning out he had like a workshop where he did 557 00:29:08,841 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: woodwork and stuff like that underneath the house, and they 558 00:29:12,521 --> 00:29:16,041 Speaker 1: were all clearing out his workshop one day and a 559 00:29:16,241 --> 00:29:20,921 Speaker 1: robin flew through the window of the house and landed 560 00:29:21,001 --> 00:29:22,281 Speaker 1: on my cousin's shoulder. 561 00:29:23,761 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 2: Isn't that crazy? I think you know, the signs that 562 00:29:27,281 --> 00:29:29,761 Speaker 2: you look for is because you know there's an element 563 00:29:29,801 --> 00:29:33,161 Speaker 2: of you looking for them. Yeah, and that's okay. 564 00:29:33,481 --> 00:29:36,241 Speaker 1: But it's continuous work as well, isn't it. I remember 565 00:29:36,601 --> 00:29:40,521 Speaker 1: different things you've talked about. There was a moment where 566 00:29:40,561 --> 00:29:41,881 Speaker 1: you had panic attacks. 567 00:29:42,001 --> 00:29:44,401 Speaker 2: Yeah, in the work that I've done on myself. I 568 00:29:44,441 --> 00:29:46,881 Speaker 2: lost my dad at fourteen. And when I say I 569 00:29:46,921 --> 00:29:49,681 Speaker 2: lost my dad, he's physically here for me. And you 570 00:29:49,681 --> 00:29:53,361 Speaker 2: were saying there's a level of like abandonment right coming 571 00:29:53,361 --> 00:29:56,281 Speaker 2: in for you for grief. I probably went through that 572 00:29:56,321 --> 00:29:58,881 Speaker 2: at like fourteen when Dad decided to leave, like he 573 00:29:58,961 --> 00:30:01,361 Speaker 2: went left to us. You know, Mum and Dad's split. 574 00:30:01,361 --> 00:30:03,641 Speaker 2: When I say that, it's mum and dad split. Dad 575 00:30:03,641 --> 00:30:07,081 Speaker 2: decided to relocate into date. We never see him, you know, 576 00:30:07,161 --> 00:30:09,601 Speaker 2: and there was big things happened between him and I 577 00:30:09,641 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 2: from fourteen to I think we sort of tried to 578 00:30:12,761 --> 00:30:17,881 Speaker 2: reconcile about eighteen or nineteen, so there's years of no contact. 579 00:30:18,641 --> 00:30:21,801 Speaker 2: I felt grief at that stage as a fourteen year 580 00:30:21,841 --> 00:30:25,081 Speaker 2: old girl, of loss of a human being that was 581 00:30:25,121 --> 00:30:27,801 Speaker 2: still here. That was an interesting comment that you made. 582 00:30:27,801 --> 00:30:30,721 Speaker 2: About that abandonment part, I look at it and go 583 00:30:30,801 --> 00:30:35,681 Speaker 2: When I lost my oldest brother, I don't believe that 584 00:30:35,721 --> 00:30:40,201 Speaker 2: I actually knew what grief was. I'd experienced it losing 585 00:30:40,321 --> 00:30:45,641 Speaker 2: other loved ones, but no one as significant as a sibling, Yeah, 586 00:30:45,641 --> 00:30:48,641 Speaker 2: but also a sibling that I idolized. He was eight 587 00:30:48,721 --> 00:30:51,841 Speaker 2: years older than me. He played that role in my 588 00:30:52,001 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 2: life where there was very big moments where he's helped 589 00:30:55,441 --> 00:30:57,921 Speaker 2: me get out of the mud, but he's happy to 590 00:30:58,041 --> 00:30:59,761 Speaker 2: stay in the mud with you as long as I 591 00:30:59,801 --> 00:31:02,801 Speaker 2: need it until I got out. So then the panic 592 00:31:02,841 --> 00:31:07,841 Speaker 2: attacks I think come off that twisting enough because he 593 00:31:07,961 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 2: was a big player in my recovery after post natal, 594 00:31:12,321 --> 00:31:15,281 Speaker 2: which also were panic attacks. There was so many of 595 00:31:15,321 --> 00:31:19,081 Speaker 2: them in there that I started to feel those panic 596 00:31:19,121 --> 00:31:23,881 Speaker 2: attacks again when losing him, because I was like, no 597 00:31:23,921 --> 00:31:25,481 Speaker 2: one's going to be able to help me out of 598 00:31:25,521 --> 00:31:27,161 Speaker 2: this I need for myself. 599 00:31:27,481 --> 00:31:27,721 Speaker 3: Yeah. 600 00:31:28,521 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 2: So I think that there was so many emotions in 601 00:31:31,081 --> 00:31:36,321 Speaker 2: that and in itself of past you know, life obstacles, 602 00:31:36,361 --> 00:31:39,081 Speaker 2: we would say, well, I say it as things that 603 00:31:39,161 --> 00:31:42,721 Speaker 2: make you stronger when you get past them and get 604 00:31:42,721 --> 00:31:44,921 Speaker 2: through them and you know, work your way to where 605 00:31:44,921 --> 00:31:47,361 Speaker 2: you meant to be and he was always a player 606 00:31:47,641 --> 00:31:51,961 Speaker 2: in every stage of my life with those really big 607 00:31:52,001 --> 00:31:55,281 Speaker 2: things and the panic attacks, Yeah, definitely came off the 608 00:31:55,361 --> 00:31:58,801 Speaker 2: back of going, oh, fuck, no one's going to help 609 00:31:58,801 --> 00:32:01,361 Speaker 2: me out now. There was some inner work that I 610 00:32:01,401 --> 00:32:04,281 Speaker 2: needed to do in myself to know that I have 611 00:32:04,481 --> 00:32:07,841 Speaker 2: the inner strength now and I have to look at 612 00:32:07,881 --> 00:32:11,161 Speaker 2: it and go, you know, that man was all about legacy, 613 00:32:11,681 --> 00:32:14,881 Speaker 2: and I have to thank him for teaching me elements 614 00:32:14,921 --> 00:32:18,881 Speaker 2: of his stoic behavior. I still cry it very rarely, 615 00:32:19,121 --> 00:32:22,601 Speaker 2: but you know I still cry. There's parts of him 616 00:32:22,641 --> 00:32:25,241 Speaker 2: that I will forever be grateful and I will live 617 00:32:25,321 --> 00:32:28,601 Speaker 2: on trying, you know, in his legacy to share with 618 00:32:28,641 --> 00:32:33,121 Speaker 2: others and make sure his boys understand fully. And I 619 00:32:33,161 --> 00:32:37,561 Speaker 2: know their mum like absolutely shares every ounce of her 620 00:32:37,601 --> 00:32:41,241 Speaker 2: living moments with him with the boys. But it's sort 621 00:32:41,281 --> 00:32:43,921 Speaker 2: of like the early days of Dad that they get 622 00:32:43,921 --> 00:32:46,681 Speaker 2: to learn from the family that you know, I'll pass on. 623 00:32:46,841 --> 00:32:49,841 Speaker 2: And I promised him to the day that you know 624 00:32:49,921 --> 00:32:54,961 Speaker 2: he parts that I would for his boys. But yeah, 625 00:32:55,041 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 2: not only that, it was for me too. Grief is 626 00:32:58,041 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 2: like in everything, some of us might get away with 627 00:33:01,241 --> 00:33:04,481 Speaker 2: it for a really long time. When you lose those 628 00:33:04,481 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 2: big keep players in your life, and for each and 629 00:33:07,201 --> 00:33:09,361 Speaker 2: every one of us, it's going to be really different people. 630 00:33:10,641 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 2: For you, it's your mum. Until you really experience that 631 00:33:14,521 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 2: heartbreak feeling of losing someone, you sort of don't know 632 00:33:18,481 --> 00:33:19,441 Speaker 2: how you're going to respond. 633 00:33:20,481 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: I fully understand the panic part though. It's the panic 634 00:33:23,681 --> 00:33:26,921 Speaker 1: of I need you, the realization of we will see 635 00:33:26,921 --> 00:33:29,841 Speaker 1: them in different ways, but I am never going to 636 00:33:29,961 --> 00:33:32,401 Speaker 1: have you physically sit in front of me every again. 637 00:33:33,201 --> 00:33:38,561 Speaker 1: Is such a letting go of what you can control, 638 00:33:38,641 --> 00:33:41,881 Speaker 1: like you cannot control it. Lee did teach you to 639 00:33:41,961 --> 00:33:44,801 Speaker 1: be able to do that by yourself. Yeah, And so yes, 640 00:33:44,841 --> 00:33:47,561 Speaker 1: you needed him during the post natal time and he 641 00:33:47,601 --> 00:33:49,801 Speaker 1: did a lot for you, but he was giving you 642 00:33:49,841 --> 00:33:54,281 Speaker 1: those tools to yourself and of that, that's yes. 643 00:33:54,321 --> 00:33:56,961 Speaker 2: So I know that the panics were like just that 644 00:33:57,121 --> 00:34:00,641 Speaker 2: internal panic within myself or going, ah, I don't have 645 00:34:00,721 --> 00:34:03,241 Speaker 2: you here anymore, like how do I do this? Trust 646 00:34:03,321 --> 00:34:06,681 Speaker 2: that you learn the lessons needed to I did, It 647 00:34:06,721 --> 00:34:10,361 Speaker 2: doesn't ever leave you. It just shapes who you are 648 00:34:10,401 --> 00:34:14,921 Speaker 2: going forward. Yeah, grief means I've loved and for that 649 00:34:15,001 --> 00:34:18,361 Speaker 2: I'm grateful, and it doesn't change my love for the person, 650 00:34:18,521 --> 00:34:20,641 Speaker 2: even if they're not here. And I think it takes 651 00:34:20,641 --> 00:34:23,121 Speaker 2: some of the weight out of it. Because people tend 652 00:34:23,161 --> 00:34:26,601 Speaker 2: to feel like grief is heavy and you can't stop 653 00:34:26,681 --> 00:34:29,361 Speaker 2: carrying it. I want to put a positive spin on 654 00:34:29,441 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 2: it and go, if you are grieving, you're not doing 655 00:34:32,521 --> 00:34:35,201 Speaker 2: it wrong. There's no right or wrong with this, and 656 00:34:35,321 --> 00:34:39,201 Speaker 2: each of us is so individual. Instead of seeing it 657 00:34:39,241 --> 00:34:42,441 Speaker 2: as a heavy burden, try and find some light in 658 00:34:42,521 --> 00:34:45,321 Speaker 2: the one that you got to choose to love on 659 00:34:45,401 --> 00:34:49,801 Speaker 2: this earth for this lifetime. And I don't think today's 660 00:34:49,841 --> 00:34:52,601 Speaker 2: episode has been about any answers to do with grief, 661 00:34:52,761 --> 00:34:55,081 Speaker 2: but I think there are any answers, but it is 662 00:34:55,121 --> 00:34:57,921 Speaker 2: a really good way of understanding that every one of 663 00:34:58,001 --> 00:35:02,481 Speaker 2: us is being seen. So I guess with that will wrap. Yeah, 664 00:35:02,601 --> 00:35:04,961 Speaker 2: send out love to everyone. There's a heavy one today, 665 00:35:05,081 --> 00:35:09,761 Speaker 2: but we knew what was coming. Mmm.