1 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I'm Suan Alma. 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 1: We hear a lot about the gender pay gap and 3 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: the work being done to slowly close it. But this 4 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: gap isn't just reflective in salaries and wages. It's perhaps 5 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:21,600 Speaker 1: even more pronounced in superannuation, where men are retiring with 6 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 1: vastly larger sums than women. Kiaren Buller is a private 7 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: client advisor at Unisuper, which is a trivick supporter of 8 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: this podcast. She joins me in our Melbourne studio. Kieren, 9 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to Fear and Greed. 10 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:35,599 Speaker 2: Hi Sean, great to be here, Thanks for having me. 11 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,559 Speaker 1: The gender super pay gap, how big is it? How 12 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: big an issue is it? 13 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 2: It is quite a significant issue, and it reflects the 14 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 2: disparity between average balances in men and women, and women 15 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 2: are retiring with almost a quarter less in their super 16 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 2: than men, and if you combine that with the fact 17 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 2: that women do live longer, it is a significant issue 18 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 2: and it could be a difference between retiring comfortably and 19 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 2: just graping it in. And there's a lot of debate 20 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 2: around this, a lot being sent, government are being blobbied. However, 21 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 2: there is still a significant amount of work that is 22 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 2: required to bridge this. We do find that it starts 23 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 2: off quite early, as women in their maybe mid twenties 24 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 2: and thirties lee workforce to have children. Even at that point, 25 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:32,559 Speaker 2: an average you know, women with same salaries as men 26 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 2: could have a super gap of approximately fourteen percent. 27 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 1: And because of the child rearing, because of yeah. 28 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:44,320 Speaker 2: As a v workforce, Yeah, for caring responsibilities. So it's 29 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 2: not just the pay gap, I mean pay gap is 30 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 2: a significant issue women in general. The pay gap in 31 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 2: Australia is eleven point nine percent, which is two hundred 32 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 2: and thirty dollars a week. So what that means is 33 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 2: women are earning less than men, which equates to about 34 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 2: twelve thousand, eight hundred in a year. And if you 35 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:09,239 Speaker 2: consider the impact on superannuation, that's over fourteen hundred dollars 36 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 2: a year less in their superannuation savings per year. Now, 37 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,239 Speaker 2: if you look at that issue that women do get 38 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 2: paid less and combine that with the fact that women 39 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 2: do take time off workforce to have children, and initially 40 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,799 Speaker 2: in their mid twenties or thirties, this gap in their 41 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 2: super could be fourteen percent. However, it compounds over their lifetimes. 42 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,639 Speaker 2: So if you look at in the forties, women when 43 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 2: they re enter workforce, whether in part time or lower 44 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 2: paying jobs. The fact that women paid are paid less 45 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 2: and when they go back to work there could be 46 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 2: a bit of a gap in them being able to 47 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 2: get higher paying jobs in terms of promotion cliff we 48 00:02:56,280 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 2: call it or a motherhood penalty. We find women are 49 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 2: entering into female dominated careers for example healthcare, and they 50 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:13,239 Speaker 2: are overrepresented in lower paying jobs, so this gap tends 51 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 2: to widen in their forties. And when we see in 52 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 2: the fifties, we further see that women, due to various 53 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 2: factors such as menopause or caring for elderly or aging 54 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 2: family members, they again either go part time or take 55 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 2: time off work. It often defaults to women to take 56 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 2: time off work to provide caring, whether it be children 57 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 2: or elderly family members, which not only just results in 58 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 2: lower contributions in their SUPER but also ends up manifesting 59 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 2: itself in lower compounding returns over their lifetimes and could 60 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 2: be one hundred thousand dollars less in SUPER for women, 61 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 2: which is a significant issue. 62 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: Yes, is this something that's gotten any better? We have 63 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: spoken about it for a while, and I want to 64 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 1: come to potentially what we should be doing about it. 65 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: But in twenty twenty five has it improved at all? 66 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 2: In the last decade or so, there has been a 67 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 2: lot of research done. We have seen figures that previously, 68 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 2: the data that came out in twenty fifteen said it 69 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 2: was about forty seven percent less. Now the latest data 70 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 2: we are seeing is probably more promising. When we generally 71 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 2: see women are breaking barriers, they are entering occupations and 72 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:33,359 Speaker 2: even in UNIE Super I work in Unie Souper. We 73 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 2: have forty two percent of our senior leadership as women. 74 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 2: So we have the target of forty percent as senior 75 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 2: leaders to be women and we have obviously exceeded that 76 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 2: and sixty percent of our members are women in the 77 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:51,119 Speaker 2: workforce in higher education sector, so we do see women 78 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 2: actually are breaking barriers. They're doing really well. However, there 79 00:04:56,279 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 2: is still this superannuation gap that exists and is for 80 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 2: assistance and it is a scary number if you think 81 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 2: about how it impacts the confidence peace and women, how 82 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 2: it impacts their lifestyle and retirement, how it impacts their 83 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 2: quality of life, not just in working years but even 84 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 2: in retirement. 85 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:18,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to come to some of those issues 86 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: in a moment, but there is a structural issue here 87 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 1: in that women give birth so they have time off. Now, 88 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: maybe it's more of a social issue about caring for 89 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 1: children when they're young or caring for older parents. But 90 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 1: is there something we can do so that if women 91 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: have twelve months off when they give birth, they don't 92 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:41,480 Speaker 1: fall behind. I mean, I know the Albenezi government has 93 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 1: been pushing down that path, but we're a long way 94 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 1: from it. What needs to be done. 95 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, the responsibility isn't just on women. It is almost 96 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,039 Speaker 2: like if you have a partner, it's a teamwork. You 97 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:57,160 Speaker 2: need to start thinking on those lines what women's partners 98 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 2: can do. So you have to start thinking because there 99 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 2: aren't just benefits to women in this, you know, there 100 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 2: are also benefits to the partners. They miss out a lot. 101 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 2: If you have a male partner who doesn't spend time 102 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 2: with children, it is equally there missing out. So we 103 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:19,719 Speaker 2: are seeing employers are modernizing the paid parental leave policies. 104 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 2: I'm really pleased to say the government is starting superannuation 105 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 2: from one July twenty twenty five on paid parental leave, 106 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 2: which is a quick win for women and in you know, 107 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 2: it helps in bridging some of that superannuation gap that exists. So, yes, 108 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 2: there has been work done, but there is a lot 109 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 2: that can be done. One of the things which I 110 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 2: think as financial advisors we can do is highlight where 111 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 2: you can make a difference. So one of the things 112 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 2: that we advocate a lot is women to take active 113 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 2: participation in financial planning and financial decisions, for them to 114 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 2: be involved in decision making. You should both come together 115 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 2: and make decisions decisions and be aware of what opportunities 116 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 2: are there throughout your working lives. Governments are being lobbied, 117 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 2: but change of this nature can take time. What is 118 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 2: it that we can do ourselves and where we can 119 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 2: take accountability of some things that we can do in 120 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 2: order to bridge the gap and build the difference. For example, 121 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 2: if we know that there is this issue that may 122 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 2: take years to be resolved, or we have equity in this, 123 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 2: So what can we do If I have a daughter 124 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 2: and she's entering workforce, and I can educate her to 125 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 2: make a difference and start thinking about the fact that 126 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 2: women are likely to have career breaks. What can she 127 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 2: do if she was to save and put fifty dollars 128 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 2: aside in her superannuation a week. What does that mean. 129 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 2: So someone's starting out today in their mid twenties and 130 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 2: they have forty years of working life ahead of them, 131 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 2: fifty dollars a week could be over one point one 132 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 2: million dollars if you consider seven percent compound interest. If 133 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 2: you're in your mid thirties, never too late, it's five 134 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 2: hundred and sixty thousand dollars. The fact that you can 135 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 2: invest and take a bit more proactive approach investment earnings 136 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 2: and compounding returns can make a huge difference. So seven 137 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 2: percent return compared to six percent return can actually make 138 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 2: a huge difference in the quality of life you're going 139 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 2: to have in retirement. 140 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:26,239 Speaker 1: Something you mentioned a moment ago financial confidence. What about 141 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 1: the non monetary impacts of the pay gap, the gender 142 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 1: pay gap in superinnoation, I kind of get that financial 143 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: conference because if you don't have as much money, you 144 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:38,959 Speaker 1: just don't have the confidence necessarily. 145 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't want to be stuck in a situation. 146 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 2: You want to Money makes things happen. It is a 147 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 2: sense of control you can have, what quality of life 148 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 2: you're going to have. It's financial planning isn't just about money. 149 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 2: It is about your dreams. It is about your goals. 150 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 2: It is about what you envisage, what type of life 151 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 2: you're going to have. We have a lot of research 152 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 2: and data on domestic violence issues, how women feel less 153 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 2: stuck in a position. I mean, you want to have 154 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 2: ability to make the difference and have the control in 155 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 2: your hands, and that those issues, I guess are something 156 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 2: that we find women struggle a lot. We see that 157 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 2: women take career breaks and you know, then comes a 158 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,439 Speaker 2: time where there's other divorce or separation and they're left. 159 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 2: There's a lot being said about single women are the 160 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 2: highest risk at poverty alder women. That is a shocking statistic. 161 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 2: And in my twenty years in financial planning, I have 162 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 2: worked with a lot of strong, independent women who have 163 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:44,559 Speaker 2: done fantastic in their careers. But at the same time, 164 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 2: I have worked with women who don't have ability to know. 165 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 2: There's a lot of uncertainty. Their confidence in the quality 166 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 2: of life they're going to have is shaken, It is 167 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 2: eroded just because they don't understand what they need and 168 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 2: that confidence piece. 169 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: We are out of time, but it's kind of wrapping 170 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:10,319 Speaker 1: it up here. In a sense. There is progress being made, 171 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: but there's plenty more to make if we are to 172 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: narrow this gender pay gap in superannuation. 173 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 2: Absolutely there are a lot of steps one can do 174 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 2: too narrow. I guess what one tip would be to 175 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 2: be aware of your current position, be aware of your 176 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 2: cash flow, and take more control, more proactive, more intentional 177 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 2: control of your ability to save and invest. Women need 178 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 2: to feel confident about their future and money is a 179 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 2: part of it, but it will make it happen for you. 180 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 2: So you need to take a bit more charge. And 181 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 2: in case you don't know how to, there is help available. 182 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 2: Come and see us, Come and see your super fund. 183 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:57,079 Speaker 2: They might be advice on simple topics like investments or contributions, 184 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 2: which can help you gain clarity on the lifestyle that 185 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 2: you can have. 186 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: Kieran, thank you very much for talking to Fear and Greed. 187 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 2: Thanks Sean. 188 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: That was Karen Buller, private client advisor at Unisuper. This 189 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: is the Fear and Greed Business Interview. Join us every 190 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed Business 191 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: news for people who make their own decisions. I'm Jane Elmer. 192 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: Enjoy your day.