1 00:00:03,900 --> 00:00:06,420 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,420 --> 00:00:11,550 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. One of Australia's biggest renewable energy companies is rebranding 3 00:00:11,550 --> 00:00:15,690 Sean Aylmer: as it prepares to launch completely green energy to consumers. 4 00:00:15,930 --> 00:00:19,439 Sean Aylmer: Pacific Blue was previously known as Pacific Hydro and has 5 00:00:19,470 --> 00:00:22,770 Sean Aylmer: a range of wind, hydro, and solar assets, as well 6 00:00:22,770 --> 00:00:26,160 Sean Aylmer: as a retail arm. What I find particularly interesting about 7 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:28,200 Sean Aylmer: this is the fact that Pacific Blue is one of 8 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:30,990 Sean Aylmer: the original players in this space, having been operating for 9 00:00:30,990 --> 00:00:33,449 Sean Aylmer: more than 30 years. It means it should have a 10 00:00:33,450 --> 00:00:36,150 Sean Aylmer: pretty decent head start over everyone else when it comes 11 00:00:36,150 --> 00:00:40,710 Sean Aylmer: to the transition to green energy. Domenic Capomolla is the CEO 12 00:00:40,710 --> 00:00:44,250 Sean Aylmer: of Pacific Blue, formerly Pacific Hydro. Domenic, welcome to Fear 13 00:00:44,250 --> 00:00:44,760 Sean Aylmer: and Greed. 14 00:00:45,270 --> 00:00:47,220 Domenic Capomolla: Thank you, Sean. It's my pleasure to be here. 15 00:00:47,820 --> 00:00:50,220 Sean Aylmer: 30 years in the space. I hope you know what 16 00:00:50,220 --> 00:00:50,910 Sean Aylmer: you're talking about. 17 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:55,470 Domenic Capomolla: Well, we should. We're an original pioneer in this space. 18 00:00:56,190 --> 00:01:00,960 Domenic Capomolla: 31 years this year. Our very first commercial wind farm 19 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:04,380 Domenic Capomolla: in Victoria and Australia was the first commercial wind farm 20 00:01:04,380 --> 00:01:07,440 Domenic Capomolla: in Victoria and Australia. And from there we just built 21 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:09,750 Domenic Capomolla: more and more and more, and we like to think 22 00:01:09,750 --> 00:01:11,790 Domenic Capomolla: we are a pioneer and continue to be a pioneer 23 00:01:11,790 --> 00:01:12,539 Domenic Capomolla: in this space. 24 00:01:13,140 --> 00:01:16,590 Sean Aylmer: How many companies are like you, sort of purely green? 25 00:01:17,670 --> 00:01:20,040 Domenic Capomolla: We have done our research and we think we are 26 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:25,470 Domenic Capomolla: the only 100% renewable energy generator. We do nothing else 27 00:01:25,470 --> 00:01:29,700 Domenic Capomolla: except wind, solar, and hydro. So for example, we don't 28 00:01:29,700 --> 00:01:33,780 Domenic Capomolla: have gas peaking plants or small diesel plants to supplement 29 00:01:33,930 --> 00:01:36,959 Domenic Capomolla: some firming and what have you. And we certainly know 30 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:42,569 Domenic Capomolla: that we're the only 100% renewable gentailer, meaning 100% renewable 31 00:01:42,569 --> 00:01:46,590 Domenic Capomolla: energy plus an energy retail arm that spans right across 32 00:01:46,770 --> 00:01:49,590 Domenic Capomolla: the residential, SME, and commercial market sectors. 33 00:01:50,250 --> 00:01:53,100 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So who are your customers primarily? 34 00:01:54,630 --> 00:01:57,360 Domenic Capomolla: Large corporates tend to be our off takers from our 35 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:04,200 Domenic Capomolla: renewable assets. But then we have a conglomeration of customers 36 00:02:04,620 --> 00:02:08,220 Domenic Capomolla: that are part of our Melbourne Renewable Energy Project 1 37 00:02:08,220 --> 00:02:11,160 Domenic Capomolla: and Mach 2, and they include Melbourne City Council. They 38 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:17,370 Domenic Capomolla: include banks, corporates, superannuation funds, chocolate lolly manufacturers. And in 39 00:02:17,370 --> 00:02:21,959 Domenic Capomolla: fact, that particular project underwrote the building of our Crowlands 40 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,240 Domenic Capomolla: Wind Farm. And so you can see how the coming 41 00:02:24,270 --> 00:02:29,850 Domenic Capomolla: together of retail corporations can actually promote building new renewable assets. 42 00:02:30,270 --> 00:02:33,810 Sean Aylmer: But what Pacific Blue is doing is kind of where 43 00:02:33,990 --> 00:02:36,660 Sean Aylmer: we all have to get to eventually. Is that fair 44 00:02:36,660 --> 00:02:37,290 Sean Aylmer: to say that? 45 00:02:37,830 --> 00:02:40,680 Domenic Capomolla: Yep, I absolutely agree with that. And that's, Sean, the 46 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:44,190 Domenic Capomolla: key reason why we rebranded. We had Pacific Hydro a 47 00:02:44,970 --> 00:02:48,210 Domenic Capomolla: hundred percent renewable energy generator. We had Tango Energy as 48 00:02:48,210 --> 00:02:52,320 Domenic Capomolla: the retail arm, but nobody really knew our story. We 49 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:56,639 Domenic Capomolla: kept hearing promises about, we're moving to carbon neutral in 50 00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:02,760 Domenic Capomolla: 2050 or 2040, the likes of AGL, Alinta, ANGI. Well, we're already there. 51 00:03:03,419 --> 00:03:06,030 Domenic Capomolla: And then if you think about what AGL was trying 52 00:03:06,030 --> 00:03:08,040 Domenic Capomolla: to do last year, they were trying to create a 53 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:12,810 Domenic Capomolla: retailer with renewable assets, and then separate the carbon intensive 54 00:03:12,810 --> 00:03:16,200 Domenic Capomolla: assets into a separate vehicle. We sort of looked at 55 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:19,050 Domenic Capomolla: that and thought, actually we're already there and they're trying 56 00:03:19,050 --> 00:03:21,720 Domenic Capomolla: to catch us. We've got to tell our story and 57 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,960 Domenic Capomolla: we've got to actually bring our businesses together because we 58 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:28,290 Domenic Capomolla: are the pioneer and we are leading this change well ahead of anyone, 59 00:03:28,710 --> 00:03:29,820 Domenic Capomolla: and yet nobody knows that. 60 00:03:30,450 --> 00:03:34,619 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So tell me about the assets you have. Wind, 61 00:03:34,620 --> 00:03:38,670 Sean Aylmer: solar, hydro. What's the split? You're talking to someone here, 62 00:03:38,670 --> 00:03:42,780 Sean Aylmer: Domenic, who is very ignorant in this area. So what's 63 00:03:42,780 --> 00:03:45,990 Sean Aylmer: the split? What's the energy mix that you're drawing from? 64 00:03:46,590 --> 00:03:50,760 Domenic Capomolla: So we have almost 700 megawatts of installed capacity. By 65 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:55,560 Domenic Capomolla: way of example, Victoria on average has about 6, 000 megawatts 66 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:59,250 Domenic Capomolla: of generation feeding its needs in terms of electricity. So 67 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:03,720 Domenic Capomolla: we can generate up to 10% of Victoria's needs. Of 68 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:08,160 Domenic Capomolla: that 700, about 40 to 50 is hydro. They're our 69 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:14,070 Domenic Capomolla: older plants. Over 500 is wind generation, and most of 70 00:04:14,070 --> 00:04:16,860 Domenic Capomolla: that is in Victoria by the way. 108 megawatts of 71 00:04:16,860 --> 00:04:19,230 Domenic Capomolla: that wind is in New South Wales. And then we 72 00:04:19,230 --> 00:04:23,549 Domenic Capomolla: have just over 100 megawatts of solar in Queensland. But 73 00:04:23,550 --> 00:04:26,400 Domenic Capomolla: our intention is to continue to build that, particularly wind, 74 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:31,650 Domenic Capomolla: solar in Queensland, and start installing batteries for storage. Because 75 00:04:31,650 --> 00:04:35,070 Domenic Capomolla: once these coal-fired generators come completely off the bars and 76 00:04:35,070 --> 00:04:38,130 Domenic Capomolla: the gas comes off, we need to store energy. And 77 00:04:38,130 --> 00:04:41,340 Domenic Capomolla: battery at the moment is the best form of storage 78 00:04:41,430 --> 00:04:43,650 Domenic Capomolla: and the most economic form of storage. 79 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:45,690 Sean Aylmer: So I want to get onto batteries in a moment 80 00:04:45,690 --> 00:04:48,630 Sean Aylmer: because I think it's a fascinating area, but when you 81 00:04:48,660 --> 00:04:53,100 Sean Aylmer: talk about generating and pushing more wind, pushing more solar, 82 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,909 Sean Aylmer: are there cost advantages in some over others? Is it 83 00:04:56,910 --> 00:04:59,310 Sean Aylmer: all geography dependent? How's that all work? 84 00:04:59,490 --> 00:05:03,870 Domenic Capomolla: Yeah, really good question, Sean. It is geography dependent. So 85 00:05:03,870 --> 00:05:08,190 Domenic Capomolla: for example, to get a more efficient solar farm, the 86 00:05:08,190 --> 00:05:11,010 Domenic Capomolla: cost of building the solar farm generally anywhere on the 87 00:05:11,010 --> 00:05:15,359 Domenic Capomolla: east coast is about the same per unit. But you 88 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,750 Domenic Capomolla: can imagine in Queensland there's more sun more often than 89 00:05:18,750 --> 00:05:22,680 Domenic Capomolla: there is in Victoria or Tasmania. So you get more 90 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:27,390 Domenic Capomolla: generation output from a solar farm in Queensland, a little 91 00:05:27,390 --> 00:05:29,520 Domenic Capomolla: bit less in New South Wales, and that degrades as 92 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,520 Domenic Capomolla: you come down the east coast. It doesn't mean you 93 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:36,120 Domenic Capomolla: can't build an economic solar farm, but it just means 94 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:38,729 Domenic Capomolla: that in those more sunny states where the irradiation is 95 00:05:38,790 --> 00:05:42,210 Domenic Capomolla: higher, you'll get better efficiency and cheaper energy as a 96 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:44,400 Domenic Capomolla: result because you get more out of the same kit. 97 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:49,589 Domenic Capomolla: Now similarly with wind, we have 10 wind assets in 98 00:05:49,589 --> 00:05:53,460 Domenic Capomolla: the southwest corner of Victoria in and around Warrnambool. The 99 00:05:53,460 --> 00:05:56,010 Domenic Capomolla: reason we have them there is because there's more wind 100 00:05:56,010 --> 00:05:59,549 Domenic Capomolla: more often. So again, for the same cost for the 101 00:05:59,550 --> 00:06:03,210 Domenic Capomolla: same piece of kit, you are getting more output of 102 00:06:03,210 --> 00:06:06,960 Domenic Capomolla: energy, which then means as a dollar cost per megawatt 103 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:09,990 Domenic Capomolla: installed, you're able to produce more energy. So you're able 104 00:06:09,990 --> 00:06:12,810 Domenic Capomolla: to provide it cheaper into the system. If you move 105 00:06:12,810 --> 00:06:15,780 Domenic Capomolla: inland is less wind. It makes sense. Near the beach 106 00:06:15,900 --> 00:06:18,450 Domenic Capomolla: tends to be windier than it tends to be inland. 107 00:06:18,450 --> 00:06:22,109 Domenic Capomolla: So it does depend on geography and that geography really 108 00:06:22,110 --> 00:06:25,799 Domenic Capomolla: then dictates the resources that are available, both wind and 109 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:27,090 Domenic Capomolla: the amount of sunlight hours. 110 00:06:27,570 --> 00:06:29,580 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me Domenic, we'll be back in a minute. 111 00:06:35,490 --> 00:06:41,580 Sean Aylmer: My guest today is Domenic Capomolla, CEO of Pacific Blue. Batteries. 112 00:06:41,730 --> 00:06:45,570 Sean Aylmer: Where are you up to? It seems when everyone talks 113 00:06:45,570 --> 00:06:49,200 Sean Aylmer: about batteries, they say it's kind of the holy grail, 114 00:06:49,620 --> 00:06:52,500 Sean Aylmer: but there's a long way to go still with batteries 115 00:06:52,500 --> 00:06:53,849 Sean Aylmer: to make sure they're efficient. 116 00:06:55,380 --> 00:06:58,080 Domenic Capomolla: Look, batteries are efficient at the moment, Sean, and we've 117 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:02,460 Domenic Capomolla: seen a number of big installations. Probably the most public 118 00:07:02,460 --> 00:07:05,279 Domenic Capomolla: one is Hornsdale in South Australia a few years ago 119 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:09,300 Domenic Capomolla: when South Australia had their blackouts and Elon Musk challenged 120 00:07:09,300 --> 00:07:12,300 Domenic Capomolla: the SA government. In fact that's been a stunning success, 121 00:07:12,330 --> 00:07:15,270 Domenic Capomolla: that battery. There's been a number of very large scale 122 00:07:15,270 --> 00:07:19,230 Domenic Capomolla: batteries as well. They are efficient. You fill them with 123 00:07:19,230 --> 00:07:22,530 Domenic Capomolla: renewable energy to make sure that they're renewable. The issue 124 00:07:22,530 --> 00:07:25,830 Domenic Capomolla: though with battery is they can have a two or four- 125 00:07:25,830 --> 00:07:28,470 Domenic Capomolla: hour run time at the moment. And we are talking 126 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,980 Domenic Capomolla: in future state of longer run times for battery, but 127 00:07:31,980 --> 00:07:34,530 Domenic Capomolla: at the moment, two or four hours. So the issue 128 00:07:34,530 --> 00:07:37,200 Domenic Capomolla: is if the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine 129 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,480 Domenic Capomolla: and you shut down all of these coal- fire generators, 130 00:07:40,350 --> 00:07:42,929 Domenic Capomolla: and if that event happens for a day, once you run 131 00:07:42,930 --> 00:07:44,730 Domenic Capomolla: out of battery, where are you going to get your 132 00:07:44,730 --> 00:07:51,090 Domenic Capomolla: power from? And so the conversations around pumped hydro storage, 133 00:07:51,330 --> 00:07:54,510 Domenic Capomolla: which is Snowy 2. 0. So that means effectively you've 134 00:07:54,510 --> 00:07:57,390 Domenic Capomolla: got a big dam up on a hill somewhere, the 135 00:07:57,390 --> 00:08:01,290 Domenic Capomolla: water spills into a hydro generator down into another pond, 136 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,950 Domenic Capomolla: and then you pump that water back up overnight. That's 137 00:08:04,950 --> 00:08:07,440 Domenic Capomolla: really cool. But what happens when you have a drought, 138 00:08:07,740 --> 00:08:12,090 Domenic Capomolla: and this country's had droughts before. So hydrogen is spoken 139 00:08:12,090 --> 00:08:15,390 Domenic Capomolla: about a lot at the moment. The hydrogen at current 140 00:08:15,390 --> 00:08:19,620 Domenic Capomolla: state is very expensive. It's proven to appoint the technology, 141 00:08:19,620 --> 00:08:22,050 Domenic Capomolla: but it seems to be the silver bullet, if I 142 00:08:22,050 --> 00:08:24,750 Domenic Capomolla: can use that term, and a lot are pinning their 143 00:08:24,750 --> 00:08:27,000 Domenic Capomolla: hopes that is the answer to long- term storage of 144 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:31,530 Domenic Capomolla: renewable energy, and the provision of firm renewable energy. Firm 145 00:08:31,530 --> 00:08:34,710 Domenic Capomolla: meaning when the sun doesn't shine or the wind doesn't 146 00:08:34,710 --> 00:08:40,110 Domenic Capomolla: blow, we still have available energy. The batteries, which is 147 00:08:40,110 --> 00:08:43,439 Domenic Capomolla: short term, pumped hydro, which is medium term, or hydrogen, 148 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,290 Domenic Capomolla: which is at the moment, as I said, proving to 149 00:08:46,290 --> 00:08:49,530 Domenic Capomolla: be very expensive, but like most new technologies, likely to 150 00:08:49,530 --> 00:08:50,429 Domenic Capomolla: come down in cost. 151 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:56,459 Sean Aylmer: Okay, so Domenic Capomolla, CEO of Pacific Blue, you are 152 00:08:56,490 --> 00:08:58,319 Sean Aylmer: putting this in plain English. So I'm going to ask 153 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:02,880 Sean Aylmer: all the dumb questions now. I can't have solar panels 154 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:05,760 Sean Aylmer: on my house because the way it faces, it's not 155 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:07,650 Sean Aylmer: going to generate enough. Anyway, that's what I've been told. 156 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,110 Sean Aylmer: I'm sure over time things get more efficient. Maybe I 157 00:09:10,110 --> 00:09:12,270 Sean Aylmer: can. But for the time being, I would love to 158 00:09:12,270 --> 00:09:15,209 Sean Aylmer: have green energy. But if I plug my power point 159 00:09:15,210 --> 00:09:18,030 Sean Aylmer: in, I'm sure I'm not getting green energy. How do 160 00:09:18,030 --> 00:09:22,290 Sean Aylmer: I get green energy like you feed your energy into 161 00:09:22,290 --> 00:09:24,870 Sean Aylmer: the national electricity market, I'm presuming? 162 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:25,350 Domenic Capomolla: Correct. 163 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:28,140 Sean Aylmer: How do I know that it's green? It's great to 164 00:09:28,140 --> 00:09:29,850 Sean Aylmer: buy a Tesla and you plug it in, but where's 165 00:09:29,850 --> 00:09:30,810 Sean Aylmer: the power coming from? 166 00:09:31,110 --> 00:09:35,490 Domenic Capomolla: Yes. That's such a ripping question, Sean. Stats at the 167 00:09:35,490 --> 00:09:39,210 Domenic Capomolla: moment are showing us that owners of electric vehicle, less 168 00:09:39,210 --> 00:09:43,200 Domenic Capomolla: than 50% actually have a renewable or a green energy tariff. 169 00:09:43,740 --> 00:09:48,059 Domenic Capomolla: So there's this contradiction. I'm buying a Tesla, for example, 170 00:09:48,059 --> 00:09:49,319 Domenic Capomolla: because I want to do the right thing for the 171 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:53,429 Domenic Capomolla: environment, but then I'm out buying energy from companies that 172 00:09:53,429 --> 00:09:56,340 Domenic Capomolla: have coal- fired or gas- fired generation. So you can 173 00:09:56,340 --> 00:10:00,540 Domenic Capomolla: see almost the oxymoron in that sort of equation. To 174 00:10:00,540 --> 00:10:05,130 Domenic Capomolla: answer your question specifically, most retailers, if not all, will 175 00:10:05,130 --> 00:10:09,059 Domenic Capomolla: offer you a carbon- neutral or a green energy product. So 176 00:10:09,059 --> 00:10:12,179 Domenic Capomolla: what that means is yes, we are supplying you through 177 00:10:12,179 --> 00:10:15,690 Domenic Capomolla: the grid and the grid is a cocktail of coal, 178 00:10:15,690 --> 00:10:20,760 Domenic Capomolla: gas, wind, solar. But for your specific consumption, we then 179 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:26,370 Domenic Capomolla: go and buy carbon offsets or green certificates that exactly 180 00:10:26,370 --> 00:10:30,209 Domenic Capomolla: match or exceed your consumption. So whilst you're not buying 181 00:10:30,210 --> 00:10:35,280 Domenic Capomolla: it directly, you are in essence then promoting green energy 182 00:10:35,730 --> 00:10:37,920 Domenic Capomolla: by the virtue of the fact that we then go out and buy 183 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,910 Domenic Capomolla: it. Or you do what we do, for example. I 184 00:10:41,910 --> 00:10:45,420 Domenic Capomolla: can't tell you that the energy out at our wind farms 185 00:10:45,420 --> 00:10:48,569 Domenic Capomolla: or solar farms are going directly into your home. But 186 00:10:48,570 --> 00:10:52,050 Domenic Capomolla: what I can say is that for every customer that 187 00:10:52,050 --> 00:10:55,200 Domenic Capomolla: signs up to Pacific Blue, we are more likely to 188 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,110 Domenic Capomolla: build the next wind farm or the next solar farm 189 00:10:58,410 --> 00:11:01,170 Domenic Capomolla: so that we try and match off a customer's demand 190 00:11:01,380 --> 00:11:05,339 Domenic Capomolla: with our own generation. And that's another way you can 191 00:11:05,340 --> 00:11:09,630 Domenic Capomolla: promote building renewable or green energy supply into the system. 192 00:11:10,350 --> 00:11:14,790 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So the renewable space, then we talk so much about 193 00:11:14,790 --> 00:11:18,390 Sean Aylmer: it, have we hit that turning point where we are 194 00:11:18,390 --> 00:11:22,020 Sean Aylmer: now serious in terms of building up capacity in the 195 00:11:22,020 --> 00:11:23,910 Sean Aylmer: next 10 years? And I know the government has set 196 00:11:23,910 --> 00:11:27,959 Sean Aylmer: legislation which we are trying to achieve by 2030 and 2050, 197 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:30,990 Sean Aylmer: but are we in a position where we can do 198 00:11:30,990 --> 00:11:34,350 Sean Aylmer: that, or does there need to be a lot more 199 00:11:34,710 --> 00:11:37,380 Sean Aylmer: incentive for us to reach those targets? 200 00:11:38,130 --> 00:11:41,309 Domenic Capomolla: Yeah, I don't believe there needs to be more incentives. 201 00:11:41,309 --> 00:11:43,650 Domenic Capomolla: I think governments are starting to do a really good 202 00:11:43,650 --> 00:11:47,790 Domenic Capomolla: job in setting targets and opening up pathways. There's a 203 00:11:47,790 --> 00:11:52,320 Domenic Capomolla: lot of development being proposed that is consented, being proposed 204 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:54,570 Domenic Capomolla: that is to be built over the next five or 205 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,709 Domenic Capomolla: 10 years. The federal government itself has announced a Rewiring 206 00:11:58,710 --> 00:12:02,100 Domenic Capomolla: the Nation program and a number of state governments are 207 00:12:02,100 --> 00:12:06,120 Domenic Capomolla: supporting building out the poles and wires that will deliver 208 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:10,380 Domenic Capomolla: the electricity from renewable energy sources to our homes. So 209 00:12:10,380 --> 00:12:13,260 Domenic Capomolla: the issue we have at the moment, Sean, is for 210 00:12:13,260 --> 00:12:16,469 Domenic Capomolla: every one unit of electricity that comes from a coal- 211 00:12:16,470 --> 00:12:21,780 Domenic Capomolla: fired generator, we need four or five units of renewable 212 00:12:21,780 --> 00:12:24,540 Domenic Capomolla: energy. Because you can imagine the wind doesn't blow all 213 00:12:24,540 --> 00:12:26,880 Domenic Capomolla: the time, but the coal does get burnt all the 214 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:31,890 Domenic Capomolla: time. And so you need almost four times that capacity 215 00:12:31,890 --> 00:12:33,840 Domenic Capomolla: at any point in time to get onto those poles 216 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,240 Domenic Capomolla: and wires and into our system. Now the system was 217 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,030 Domenic Capomolla: never built for that. The poles and wires, both the 218 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,570 Domenic Capomolla: high voltage and low voltage. So government's recognized this and 219 00:12:42,570 --> 00:12:45,540 Domenic Capomolla: this is the biggest impediment to getting all these projects 220 00:12:45,540 --> 00:12:49,260 Domenic Capomolla: onto our system at the moment. The other dimension is 221 00:12:49,530 --> 00:12:53,970 Domenic Capomolla: if you look at the government's ambitions, 2040 and 2050, the amount 222 00:12:53,970 --> 00:12:56,580 Domenic Capomolla: of new builds that have started, that have been proposed 223 00:12:56,580 --> 00:12:59,189 Domenic Capomolla: or even thought about, are still not enough to hit 224 00:12:59,190 --> 00:13:04,290 Domenic Capomolla: that target. But we are seeing pricing levels move to 225 00:13:04,290 --> 00:13:07,080 Domenic Capomolla: the point that it's making the building of these plants 226 00:13:07,230 --> 00:13:11,070 Domenic Capomolla: economical for us and still providing reasonably priced power to 227 00:13:11,070 --> 00:13:13,890 Domenic Capomolla: the consumers. We've got to get away from this notion 228 00:13:13,890 --> 00:13:16,590 Domenic Capomolla: of cheap, cheap energy. Those days are gone. They went 229 00:13:16,590 --> 00:13:21,870 Domenic Capomolla: when Victoria's manufacturing started to disappear. We need reasonably priced 230 00:13:21,870 --> 00:13:25,290 Domenic Capomolla: energy and renewable energy is a reasonably priced, and will continue 231 00:13:25,290 --> 00:13:27,630 Domenic Capomolla: to get cheaper as the technology gets better and more 232 00:13:27,630 --> 00:13:32,040 Domenic Capomolla: efficient. But governments are doing the right thing in terms 233 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:35,429 Domenic Capomolla: of paving the way to building more and more of that poles 234 00:13:35,429 --> 00:13:38,550 Domenic Capomolla: and wires infrastructure to get our projects onto the system. 235 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,880 Domenic Capomolla: They don't need to provide subsidies because it does distort 236 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:45,330 Domenic Capomolla: the economic signals then to commercial players such as us 237 00:13:45,330 --> 00:13:45,900 Domenic Capomolla: in the market. 238 00:13:46,620 --> 00:13:48,390 Sean Aylmer: Domenic, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 239 00:13:48,660 --> 00:13:50,640 Domenic Capomolla: You are welcome. And thank you for your time, Sean. 240 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,630 Sean Aylmer: That was Domenic Capomolla, CEO of Pacific Blue. This is the 241 00:13:54,630 --> 00:13:56,820 Sean Aylmer: Fear and Greed daily interview. Join us every morning for 242 00:13:56,820 --> 00:13:59,309 Sean Aylmer: the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's most popular 243 00:13:59,309 --> 00:14:01,949 Sean Aylmer: business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.