Speaker 1: I get a groovers welcome to another installing the shots
Speaker 1: so you project of course, Tracy Lee Connor from the
Speaker 1: other side. Well, it depends where you're at, doesn't it.
Speaker 1: From where I am the other side of the country,
Speaker 1: on the western side. I'm on the eastern side of Australia. Hi, Trace,
Speaker 1: how are you? Hey?
Speaker 2: You going, Craig. I'm awesome.
Speaker 1: Oh, you are always good. You know, you're one of
Speaker 1: those people. I mean, we've met quite a few times
Speaker 1: and you are you are among other things, like you're
Speaker 1: a superstar in your own right. But you've been a
Speaker 1: follower and a listener and an attendee to my stuff
Speaker 1: for how long, like a long time, right, I'd.
Speaker 2: Say four or five years, And it just what I'd
Speaker 2: do is just gather my toolbox. I've got a toolbox,
Speaker 2: and between you and my psychologist, I have you know,
Speaker 2: check everything in the toolbox. And that's where it is.
Speaker 1: Why I know it's definitely more than four or five years,
Speaker 1: because COVID was four four and a half years ago,
Speaker 1: and it was way before that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it must have been seventeen or eighteen then, or
Speaker 2: maybe eighteen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's a good anyway. Anyway, among other things.
Speaker 1: You've written a book called Chemo Brain, which we're not
Speaker 1: going to revisit today other than just to mention it
Speaker 1: because that we've chatted quite a bit about this. But give,
Speaker 1: just give people before we talk about psychopaths in romantic relationships,
Speaker 1: which is what we're covering off today, just give people
Speaker 1: a quick the one minute overview because a lot of
Speaker 1: people listening to this won't have met you in inverted commas,
Speaker 1: so give them the snapshot of the one minute synthesis,
Speaker 1: the one minute snapshot synopsis of your your Chemo Brain
Speaker 1: book and journey.
Speaker 2: So twenty eleven, I had breast cancer and so I
Speaker 2: was given massive doses of chemotherapy and all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: I thought I could just go back to work, And
Speaker 2: all of a sudden went back to work and nothing
Speaker 2: made sense. So long story short. Over time, I thought
Speaker 2: it would get better, as everybody told me I would,
Speaker 2: but I actually got worse. And through my beautiful community online,
Speaker 2: I found some amazing people that helped me determine that
Speaker 2: I had long term chemo brain. So I couldn't go
Speaker 2: back to work. I had to try and find a
Speaker 2: way to live, had to get some insurance, so I
Speaker 2: did the David and glything and was quite successful, and
Speaker 2: then I wrote a book about it. But mainly when
Speaker 2: I started writing books that seemed to be about chemo bran,
Speaker 2: it was actually more about my personal story because people
Speaker 2: like Ian Gawler agreed with me that there was something
Speaker 2: more to do cancer than just you know, random bad luck.
Speaker 2: It was a lot of it was trauma induced, and
Speaker 2: it kind of segues into what we're talking about today
Speaker 2: because I had been in a narcissistic relationship and the
Speaker 2: trauma of that I believe most definitely brought on my
Speaker 2: breast cancer.
Speaker 1: Wow, so you wow, Okay, okay, just quickly before we
Speaker 1: move on, when did you first hear the term? Not
Speaker 1: that I trust your judgment now with dates, because you've
Speaker 1: already proven in two minutes your shit with recall and
Speaker 1: shit with dates. When did you first hear the term
Speaker 1: chemo brain? When did you hear that? What year? For
Speaker 1: the first time?
Speaker 2: Two thousand and thirteen.
Speaker 1: Right, so that's eleven years ago. And back then it
Speaker 1: wasn't really I mean, it was more like just a
Speaker 1: colloquial term than anything that was held in any kind
Speaker 1: of medical regard, right exactly.
Speaker 2: It was like baby brain, and that would get it
Speaker 2: would get discarded and laughed off in the same sense,
Speaker 2: Oh you've got baby brow here, You'll get over it.
Speaker 2: That's all the doctors said. But now they caught that.
Speaker 2: My doctor rash Asher from the Cedar Sinai Hospital, the
Speaker 2: medical director for cancer Survivorship, says that we need to
Speaker 2: call it cancer related cognitive impairment because it's not always
Speaker 2: from the chemo. It can often be from the cancer.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, wow, And so I'm writing that cancer related
Speaker 1: cognitive impairment CRCI. Yeah. I probably shouldn't write that down
Speaker 1: in the middle of an interview, but fuck it, I
Speaker 1: want to remember that term, so I wrote it down.
Speaker 3: So do you you think that because you've been like
Speaker 3: I know you were in one significant toxic, destructive relationship with.
Speaker 1: Psychopath? Is that? Just have you had multiple relationships like that? Like,
Speaker 1: do you think you've been you've had relationships more than
Speaker 1: one psychopath? One is enough, by the way.
Speaker 2: One is enough. But the reason I'm talking to you
Speaker 2: today one was I didn't even know what a narcissist was.
Speaker 2: I had never heard the term. I didn't understand what
Speaker 2: it was. I was in this crazy, toxic destructive relationship.
Speaker 2: But knowing me being the researcher that I am, I
Speaker 2: had to find an answer. I just went, what is
Speaker 2: going on with this? One of us is crazy? And
Speaker 2: so I you know, when I finally got out of
Speaker 2: that relationship, of which I'm kind of grateful I had it,
Speaker 2: because it was the first thing that really determined how
Speaker 2: much I did not love myself, because I allowed people
Speaker 2: to really fuck with my head in a way that
Speaker 2: nearly a nearly killed me with cancer, and be what
Speaker 2: that didn't happen on early committed side of it. So
Speaker 2: it was really, you know, like how must you not
Speaker 2: love yourself? And so then started a fifteen year journey
Speaker 2: with my wonderful counselor to then get to the point
Speaker 2: where I'm madly in love with myself and I don't
Speaker 2: care about anybody else. I'm so happy.
Speaker 1: That's not true. You care about other people, just my family.
Speaker 2: I do, but I don't yearn for that. I don't
Speaker 2: have that yearning for a significant other to talk to
Speaker 2: validate me and make me feel like anything. You know,
Speaker 2: It's like, unfortunately, it's when women feel that way that
Speaker 2: they just feel, Oh, if I only met the right person,
Speaker 2: that could see me as I am, and then they're
Speaker 2: so open to be manipulated when they meet these people
Speaker 2: because they're quite under the radar. So the first the
Speaker 2: relationship I had was with a narcissist that we its
Speaker 2: just not really all that calculating. I probably didn't even
Speaker 2: realize it was a narcissist. But the ones that I
Speaker 2: had after that, I had one very short one that
Speaker 2: I recognized it for what it was very quickly because
Speaker 2: of my experience, and that was the covert narcissist, which
Speaker 2: we're going to cover today. And since then, I've also
Speaker 2: mainly people around me, people I care about, people I've
Speaker 2: been significantly in their lives, are being caught up with
Speaker 2: the covert narcissist. And for the fact that I speak
Speaker 2: fluent narcissist, I don't stay long in their lives when
Speaker 2: they meet one of these guys, because they take one
Speaker 2: look at me opening my mouth for five minutes and go,
Speaker 2: oh my god, she's going to out me and I
Speaker 2: need to get rid of her out of this person's life,
Speaker 2: which they do very quickly.
Speaker 1: Wow Wow, all right, So what I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: know how this is going to work because, as with
Speaker 1: every podcast, I just make shit up as I go.
Speaker 1: So what I'm going to do, I'm going to I'm
Speaker 1: going to read some of what you sent me today.
Speaker 1: And we don't normally like I get lots and lots
Speaker 1: of emails, I get emails and messages, and you, by
Speaker 1: the way, we know who you are, and you're credible
Speaker 1: and you're not just some weirdo saying I want to
Speaker 1: be on the show. But I got your message today
Speaker 1: and I went, that is actually really worth chatting about.
Speaker 1: And so it's been a very quick turnaround because I
Speaker 1: got your email this morning and you said, at some
Speaker 1: stage can I chat about this? I read it and
Speaker 1: I went, yeah, that's actually I think it's really helpful
Speaker 1: potentially for a lot of people. For me, I'm reasonably
Speaker 1: familiar with sociopaths and psychopaths narcissist because of my own
Speaker 1: experiences and my research and my work and all of that.
Speaker 1: But I think I think a lot of people think
Speaker 1: that a psychopath is an axe wielding murderer, yes, when
Speaker 1: sometimes they're actually socially skilled, charming, good looking, high iq smooth,
Speaker 1: outwardly kind fucking warm, caring. But we kind of find
Speaker 1: out that although the last three things anyway, are basically
Speaker 1: a show. So I'm going to read some of this
Speaker 1: and then I'm going to hit the pause button then
Speaker 1: get you to unpack various bits. So Psychopaths in Romantic
Speaker 1: Relationships was the heading with a state of domestic violence.
Speaker 1: I don't think there are enough conversations highlighting this type
Speaker 1: of relationship and the playbook and red flags that are there.
Speaker 1: All right, let's start with that. What's a red flag
Speaker 1: if somebody, I'm sure our audience is a little bit
Speaker 1: educated because of David Gillespie, of whom you're a fan,
Speaker 1: I understand, oh, total fan.
Speaker 2: And the other thing you know, and like he talks
Speaker 2: about do not do not engage with the junkyard dog,
Speaker 2: and he's right, do not engage. But the covert narcissist
Speaker 2: that I'm talking about isn't the junkyard dog, and isn't
Speaker 2: even the good looking junkyard dog. He's a wolf. He's
Speaker 2: a wolf in sheep's clothing. He lives his life in
Speaker 2: a way that other people and he's usually got a
Speaker 2: hard lock, sad story. Something dreadful happened to him in
Speaker 2: one of the covert narcissists that I had in my
Speaker 2: life this was true. It was devastating that he did
Speaker 2: lose his daughter in a car accident. It was a
Speaker 2: very sad thing. But he played that really well so
Speaker 2: that when you feel so deeply sorry for somebody, you
Speaker 2: do ignore some of the flags that do come up
Speaker 2: because oh, God has been through so much. So and
Speaker 2: there's a playbook, So there's usually a sad story there is.
Speaker 2: Then there becomes something to hook you in, which is
Speaker 2: usually the sad story. Or they're very humble, They sit
Speaker 2: back and they don't say much, and they look like
Speaker 2: they're the quiet person. They really don't say, but they
Speaker 2: don't say. But the reasons they don't say too much
Speaker 2: is they do want to hide who they are, and
Speaker 2: the less they say, the more people can just assume
Speaker 2: that they're great people because they don't want to give up.
Speaker 2: You know, they're not really. I think COVIDT narcissists aren't
Speaker 2: as genuinely really really smart as the normal high level,
Speaker 2: grandiose type of narcissist. So then what they do is
Speaker 2: that they come across say what I call a target.
Speaker 2: It would be a person and it's usually a woman
Speaker 2: who's nearly always in any narcissistic relationship, there has to
Speaker 2: be an EmPATH because the covert narcissist is in pain
Speaker 2: because of whatever sad thing happened to him. The EmPATH
Speaker 2: will just tune into that and go, oh, I can
Speaker 2: fix you, I can make you happy, and then some
Speaker 2: like that begins. And then what happens is it's always
Speaker 2: these long drawn out conversations over hours, days, weeks, and
Speaker 2: you go and the first thing that the person says
Speaker 2: when they meet these guys, oh my god, he listened
Speaker 2: to me. We talked for hours and days and weeks.
Speaker 2: But what they don't realize is that covert nasis is
Speaker 2: just garnishing information data, what makes you tick, what makes you,
Speaker 2: where your buttons to suppress are, what your insecurities are,
Speaker 2: and he gathers all this while you're thinking he's madly
Speaker 2: in love with you. It will generally move very fast,
Speaker 2: this type of relationship, and it'll generally involve the words
Speaker 2: like soul mate, never met anybody like you before, wish
Speaker 2: I'd met you forty years ago, I had.
Speaker 1: This level of never had this level of connection.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, And then where you where it comes into
Speaker 2: your field, Craig, is that we all know that when
Speaker 2: people fall in love, things change literally physiologically change in
Speaker 2: your brain, so you know, your decision making process and
Speaker 2: all sorts of things, even in a healthy in love relationship,
Speaker 2: are impaired to some degree. And then sometimes when all
Speaker 2: that settles down, the relationship, you know, sometimes doesn't work,
Speaker 2: and you know that's just a healthy in love relationship.
Speaker 2: But with a covert narcissist, he love bombs very fast,
Speaker 2: very quick. He does things like, you know, pulls the
Speaker 2: car up, puts the air conditioner on ten minutes before
Speaker 2: we're going to get in the car, and he does
Speaker 2: things that no one has ever done for you. And
Speaker 2: then your brain then you know, you still take a
Speaker 2: bit of time, but then all of a sudden you
Speaker 2: let yourself go. You fall madly, deeply in love with
Speaker 2: this person, and he keeps going until it's like a
Speaker 2: big fat fish on a hook and you it's.
Speaker 1: Kind of it's kind of like grooming righting. It's like
Speaker 1: to me, I'm thinking, as you were saying all this,
Speaker 1: if we were going to put it in a military context,
Speaker 1: it's like doing intel on the target. It's like it's
Speaker 1: like getting intel on the enemy, so you know their weaknesses,
Speaker 1: you know how you can exploit them, you know, how
Speaker 1: you can take control and win. I mean, it's it's
Speaker 1: very do you think do you think that they are
Speaker 1: like this is just how and I'm sure it's different.
Speaker 1: And by the way, everyone, this is not two experts
Speaker 1: talking about this. This is just a conversation me having
Speaker 1: a conversation with somebody who had a pretty bad relationship
Speaker 1: with psychopath. But do you your experience and insight, and
Speaker 1: you've chatted with lots of women who have been in
Speaker 1: similar relationships, do you think they set out to be
Speaker 1: that strategic from day one or that's just how they are.
Speaker 1: They are just their default setting is manipulation, controls, self serving,
Speaker 1: you know, like psychopathic, narcissistic.
Speaker 2: But that's a really good question. This is what I think.
Speaker 2: And like you said, we're no two experts. But the
Speaker 2: way a narcissist is formed is usually something pretty drastic
Speaker 2: happened to them between the ones I know, the ones
Speaker 2: I've met, and the ones I've been involved with. Something
Speaker 2: you know, usually my mom died at two, or you know,
Speaker 2: even my mom died at nine, or something really dramatic
Speaker 2: happened to these people in early childhood, which makes it
Speaker 2: so painful that their personality splits. And that's what a
Speaker 2: narcissist is. It's a person their personality split. And then
Speaker 2: the one that's the one that they roll on with
Speaker 2: is the one that doesn't feel anything, has no empathy,
Speaker 2: feels no pain. But like we all know that the
Speaker 2: will of survival is one of all of our strongest
Speaker 2: desires that we have to protect, the will to survive.
Speaker 2: So then you, for a narcissist, his survival is is
Speaker 2: garnering that narcissistic energy. You know, he has to maintain
Speaker 2: that energy. He hates himself, he's he's he's in pain,
Speaker 2: and the only thing that makes him feel better is
Speaker 2: when he's being adored, until the point once he's not
Speaker 2: being adored. It's even if he's hated, as long as
Speaker 2: he's getting something's energy, some sort of energy off the target.
Speaker 2: And I guess what I don't know and understand is
Speaker 2: the playbook is identical. I know ten different narcissists and
Speaker 2: the playbook was the same, And I don't know why.
Speaker 2: And you know what it is is that yes, first
Speaker 2: of all, they love Bob, and then they put you
Speaker 2: up on a pedestal and then they resent you being
Speaker 2: on the pedestal because they start looking at things while
Speaker 2: you shouldn't be up on that pedestal, and they then
Speaker 2: start pulling you apart. And what happens that I knew
Speaker 2: with the narcissist is that there was a normal person
Speaker 2: understands win, win, and I think the win. We go
Speaker 2: into a scenario. We always want to come out win, win,
Speaker 2: whereas a narcissist will never see that. He will see
Speaker 2: if you're winning, he's losing. So if everyone's paying you
Speaker 2: attention because it's your birthday, then he will be very
Speaker 2: angry at you because it means that he's losing. Your winning,
Speaker 2: he's losing. If it's Christmas time and everyone's having a
Speaker 2: great day, you're winning. He's losing. He will ruin Christmas Day,
Speaker 2: which they never know.
Speaker 1: Do you know, off the top of your head? What
Speaker 1: of psychopaths? This is terrible, but fuck it, this is
Speaker 1: how we roll. What percentage of psychopaths are women. I'm
Speaker 1: just checking this out. I'm seeing what chat GP.
Speaker 2: It's interesting that they're there, but not as much.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're bogged. Yeah, because I've googled. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: that I think we need to be of course, I
Speaker 1: think the majority of psychopaths are men, and but I
Speaker 1: think we also need to point out that the women
Speaker 1: won't open any doors. But I've had some interesting experience
Speaker 1: over the years, and I can tell you it ain't
Speaker 1: all dudes, oh dudes. And yes, I agree, most men
Speaker 1: are not most men. Most psychopaths the greater percentage. I
Speaker 1: think it's something like seventy thirty. I think it's something
Speaker 1: like that.
Speaker 2: But the women may be there. We don't know that.
Speaker 1: So when you say covert cycle, is that an actual
Speaker 1: term or did you make that up?
Speaker 2: There's an actual term. If you research it, they will
Speaker 2: turn around and they'll give you. You know, if you
Speaker 2: put in covert narcissist, they'll tell you that's a different
Speaker 2: kettle of fish. It's a different it's a different narcissist.
Speaker 2: And they act differently. And the reason they act differently
Speaker 2: is they they're they're in this, they're in the community.
Speaker 2: They're quite The ones I've known are in small towns.
Speaker 2: They're doing something for the you know, the Return Services
Speaker 2: League or some you know, some organization where everyone in
Speaker 2: town says they're such a great guy and they do
Speaker 2: so much for everybody. And and oh, I've known him
Speaker 2: all my life, and it's like, yeah, but he's been
Speaker 2: married three times and he's got and he's estranged from
Speaker 2: all different relationships. How do you explain that none of
Speaker 2: his kids speak to him? How do you how do
Speaker 2: you know? How do you explain that? So with them,
Speaker 2: going back to the playbook, it's the love bombing. Then
Speaker 2: once you're hooked, then they start these and it's honestly,
Speaker 2: when you hear gaslighting. A lot of people have heard
Speaker 2: the term, but I don't think they really understand. I
Speaker 2: got gas lit, not by a person I was in
Speaker 2: a relationship, but this is how I got tossed out
Speaker 2: of that person's life without actually having any sort of
Speaker 2: argument with the person that I was close to or
Speaker 2: the person that her new boyfriend. It was actually something
Speaker 2: to do. I had a little bit of a few
Speaker 2: words with his mate over a wine debate, and all
Speaker 2: of a sudden, out of nowhere, the boyfriend kept going upstairs.
Speaker 2: You know, seven point thirty never said another word to
Speaker 2: me after that sort of chiff I had with his mate,
Speaker 2: And I haven't heard from this person since February that
Speaker 2: would call me three times a week. So what would
Speaker 2: have happened there is that I'd said a few things.
Speaker 2: I accidentally didn't realize who, you know, the whole situation,
Speaker 2: and I sort of might have outed him a little bit,
Speaker 2: so I had to had to be gotten rid of.
Speaker 2: But it's just that, you know, they they've got to survive.
Speaker 2: So all of a sudden he knew that, all of
Speaker 2: a sudden it was dangerous to have me involved, so
Speaker 2: he found a way. And he would have turned around
Speaker 2: to this person who was madly in love with him
Speaker 2: and said, well, look, you know, I'm not ever going
Speaker 2: to speak to this person again. I think that they're
Speaker 2: a heap of shit or something like that. But it's
Speaker 2: fine me that you know, you can be friends with them,
Speaker 2: but it's either them or me. And you know, when
Speaker 2: somebody is that crazily in love with you, of course,
Speaker 2: and when the people that I've talked to, I mean,
Speaker 2: this has happened, if their sisters, their brothers, their fathers
Speaker 2: and mothers. You know, once you're in a relationship with
Speaker 2: a narcissist, he can't afford to have anybody that's going
Speaker 2: to support her and take her side against him. But
Speaker 2: what he will choose, he'll find somebody in a trying
Speaker 2: what they call it triangulation. He'll he'll find somebody that's
Speaker 2: not an enemy or whatever, it's somebody that they both know.
Speaker 2: But then he'll go, look, I think you're going crazy,
Speaker 2: and I talked to Joe Blow and he agrees with me.
Speaker 2: You know, they use a third person to substantiate their
Speaker 2: bullshit and it's probably not even true. I mean, he
Speaker 2: probably Joe Blo probably said a word, but he'll utilize that.
Speaker 2: Or or they'll turn around and get somebody close to you,
Speaker 2: you know, your mum, your dad. They'll charm them and
Speaker 2: they'll go, look, I have to talk to your dad,
Speaker 2: and you know he's thinking the same as me, you're
Speaker 2: not really quite right in the head. And the reason
Speaker 2: why that happens is because all this craziness and an
Speaker 2: argument with a narcissist is traumatic, because he'll say, for instance,
Speaker 2: he got laid home. Being laid home for a week
Speaker 2: smells a perfume, and then you start an argument with
Speaker 2: him and he'll turn around go, I know you're playing
Speaker 2: up on me. You know, I know, why are you
Speaker 2: trying to sabotage this relationship? And it'll turn into a
Speaker 2: big argument where you're the only person that's doing anything wrong.
Speaker 2: And I mean if you just that ramps up, and
Speaker 2: it ramps up over years. And like I said in
Speaker 2: my letter, I read and I agree that sometimes it
Speaker 2: takes seven times to leave that relationship because they tear
Speaker 2: you apart to the point where you cannot make a
Speaker 2: decision that you trust and you just don't know which
Speaker 2: ways up. If you don't know anything about narcissist, if
Speaker 2: this is a normal person in a normal relationship, you
Speaker 2: honestly think that you are going crazy. And one of
Speaker 2: my sister in law rang me one day and she said, look,
Speaker 2: I think I need to go and get tested because
Speaker 2: I'm going crazy. You know, at work, I put the
Speaker 2: stapler down and I turn around and go, well, where's
Speaker 2: the statement that it's absolutely gone? And things like that.
Speaker 2: But it turns out the partner that was exiting the
Speaker 2: relationship was doing all this so that she would think
Speaker 2: that she was crazy, so when they got to the
Speaker 2: divorce courts, he could wrong foot her. And turns out,
Speaker 2: you know, her daughter and her son in law were
Speaker 2: top flight lawyers in Sydney. Wrong person to try and
Speaker 2: scrow over and it didn't work, But that's what they do.
Speaker 2: They will and with me, I didn't even know what
Speaker 2: was happening to me. But I was in this high
Speaker 2: stay of trauma. And you've talked about it too, you know, cortisol,
Speaker 2: adrenaline just going through your system. And you know the
Speaker 2: last time I had a big you know, it was
Speaker 2: an argument over he was mean to my child. He
Speaker 2: got my sick child out of bed and was abusive
Speaker 2: to him, and we ended up in such a fight
Speaker 2: that he took a swing at me and hit me
Speaker 2: in the chest, pushed me in the chest, and we
Speaker 2: were going to BALI the next day. See, they tend
Speaker 2: to do these things around times when they can get
Speaker 2: away with them. But as it turned out, that push
Speaker 2: in the chest could have been a savior because I
Speaker 2: ended up having a lump of fluid that turned out
Speaker 2: to me my breast cancer. But had that not happened,
Speaker 2: who knows? Did he cause it? Did he? Did he
Speaker 2: locate it? I don't know?
Speaker 1: Okay. So what I want to know is how how
Speaker 1: long were you in this relationship with with I was
Speaker 1: going to say your psychopath. I'm just going to go
Speaker 1: with that, with your psychopath.
Speaker 2: Four and a half years, okay.
Speaker 1: And when did you going in did you have any
Speaker 1: understanding of sociopthy psychopathy did you did you have any idea?
Speaker 1: And when did you first think and when did you
Speaker 1: first start to get some insight and understanding?
Speaker 2: Not until after I left the relationship.
Speaker 1: Oh really wow? And so what was happening? So tell
Speaker 1: us as much as you can that you know that
Speaker 1: you're comfortable to share with us about those four and
Speaker 1: a half years.
Speaker 2: Well, I think I was that person that I said,
Speaker 2: you know, like I was a single mum. I had,
Speaker 2: you know, not much of an opportunity to I've been
Speaker 2: single for eight years, my kids were getting older. I
Speaker 2: really loved the idea of being in a relationship. I
Speaker 2: was really lonely, and I you know, like I clapped
Speaker 2: eyes on this guy and he was very good looking,
Speaker 2: and and I think I pushed that relationship. I mean
Speaker 2: if I had, if I had been a different person
Speaker 2: with a bit more you know, self awareness, I don't
Speaker 2: think I would have gone there. But I you know,
Speaker 2: I was desperate, I was needy, and he was you know,
Speaker 2: he just played that, you know a little bit. And
Speaker 2: and then I made decisions that I should never you know,
Speaker 2: about my kids, and you know, like he just manipulated
Speaker 2: situations and you just become a I think it's the
Speaker 2: same thing as a drug addiction. I really do think that.
Speaker 2: I think if you looked at the physiology.
Speaker 1: Oh for sure, we know that people people get addicted
Speaker 1: to people like yeah, because you know, you think about this.
Speaker 1: If you're around somebody and all of a sudden, you're
Speaker 1: around that person and because you're near them, you're producing
Speaker 1: dopamine and serotonin and oxytocin and all that shit, Well,
Speaker 1: that's I mean, that's biochemical reaction, right, that's that's your
Speaker 1: brain lighting up like a Christmas tree. And when you're
Speaker 1: not with that person it doesn't happen. Then when you're
Speaker 1: with them, it happens. Yeah, one hundred percent. You're right.
Speaker 1: It's it can be a physical addiction.
Speaker 2: It was and and like I left him and and
Speaker 2: you know, my kids were just begging me to leave,
Speaker 2: and I did leave him, and I couldn't function. I
Speaker 2: was really ill. It was like I had withdrawals. I
Speaker 2: couldn't stop thinking about anything to you know, I had anxiety.
Speaker 2: I had all the things that you would expect of
Speaker 2: withdrawing from a drug.
Speaker 1: Wow, that is amazing. And so did you go back?
Speaker 2: I did? I did go back and my kids. I
Speaker 2: lost my kids over it. One kid went in one direction,
Speaker 2: one and the other and I just yeah, I just thought.
Speaker 2: And when I went back, it was like probably a
Speaker 2: junkie jumping into a whole pile of heroin. I was
Speaker 2: just like, oh my god, I've got it back, you know.
Speaker 2: And I mean this guy had me down on the
Speaker 2: ground with his hands around my throat at one stage,
Speaker 2: and there was just no way up. I didn't know
Speaker 2: which way was up. I was desperately addicted in a drug,
Speaker 2: a drugged fuelled scenario. Just to add on to that,
Speaker 2: I drive past that guy's house. He lives about three
Speaker 2: doors down from my daughter. I see him three or
Speaker 2: four times a week. He sometimes stops and chats to me.
Speaker 2: There is no addiction going on. There not a feeling,
Speaker 2: not an ounce of feeling or desire to. There's not
Speaker 2: even any intense feeling of dislike. It's just a black line.
Speaker 1: It's such an interesting analogy because it is like, you know,
Speaker 1: some people who use or who are addicted to, whether
Speaker 1: it's gambling or whether it's drugs, or whether it's booze
Speaker 1: or whether it's you know, there's a bunch things, but
Speaker 1: eventually they get to the point where their life is
Speaker 1: good without that, which is, you know, thankfully. How long
Speaker 1: do you think it, like, did you leave him, go
Speaker 1: back to him, and then leave him and go back
Speaker 1: again or was it just the once.
Speaker 2: I left and went back and then and then after
Speaker 2: you know, when I when he took a big swing
Speaker 2: at me, if I hadn't have moved my face back,
Speaker 2: I moved sort of stepped back, and it was in
Speaker 2: front of my two kids, and his knuckles grazed my face,
Speaker 2: and I think he would have probably killed me had
Speaker 2: I not avoided that, because he's a big bricky and bricklayer,
Speaker 2: that's four and he you know, if he had connected,
Speaker 2: I would have been seriously injured.
Speaker 1: So you never went to the police. She never did anything.
Speaker 2: Yes, saying yeah. I then went to the violence court
Speaker 2: and I was about to take out violence restraining order
Speaker 2: and also having charged with assault. They appointed me a
Speaker 2: counselor in the violence court and then local women's health.
Speaker 2: He talked me out of putting charges on him, but
Speaker 2: I commenced with my counselor, who I have today fifteen years.
Speaker 2: We started and it was such. We started at a
Speaker 2: point where I was completely physically, morally, everything bankrupt. And
Speaker 2: then I went to see her the other day and
Speaker 2: she cried because oh wow, it's just the contrast of
Speaker 2: building a human being to the ultimate, you know, your
Speaker 2: best version of yourself. And so with all the work
Speaker 2: you talk about that you talk about, you've got to
Speaker 2: do the work.
Speaker 1: I did the work, do you I don't. Firstly, everything
Speaker 1: that happened to you was terrible. Shouldn't have happened. Nobody
Speaker 1: should do that to you. No, do you do you
Speaker 1: ever think I'm a No, I'm trying to question. I'm
Speaker 1: trying to ask frame this carefully because I don't want
Speaker 1: people to misinterpret what I'm saying. But do you ever
Speaker 1: think what part did I play? Why? And No, you
Speaker 1: didn't deserve it, and of course you shouldn't have done it,
Speaker 1: and it's not your fault. That's not what I'm saying,
Speaker 1: But I would I would think, fuck, how did I
Speaker 1: not see this? How did I you know? Do you
Speaker 1: ever think about that? And what advice would you give
Speaker 1: yourself if you could go back?
Speaker 2: I think about that all the time. I've actually put
Speaker 2: it in my book Craig that it was one of
Speaker 2: the most important things that ever happened to me. Because
Speaker 2: it did. It highlighted that I do not have a
Speaker 2: caring and loving relationship with myself. That I put another
Speaker 2: human being in front of me and my children, and
Speaker 2: there's something very wrong. There was something I knew that
Speaker 2: there was stuff wrong. I mean, we've I had a
Speaker 2: dodger childhood. There was all sorts of things involved in that,
Speaker 2: and there were reasons why I was a bit needy.
Speaker 2: But what was great is not great. But what was
Speaker 2: the most important thing to come out of that is
Speaker 2: it was a realization and self awareness of all the
Speaker 2: things I played to put myself in that position. Every
Speaker 2: decision I made with that position I had to own
Speaker 2: and I had to you know, I had to be
Speaker 2: aware of it. I had to teach my children that
Speaker 2: I did this and apologize to them, and you know,
Speaker 2: go on to the premise that when you know better,
Speaker 2: you do better. So I've spent fifteen years learning how
Speaker 2: to be better and do better, and I am better.
Speaker 1: Wow. A couple of quick questions. So you and your
Speaker 1: kids are good now, I hope.
Speaker 2: Oh that's what I went to see Jill about. And
Speaker 2: I just said, Sarah called me Mama the other day.
Speaker 2: You know I was doing. She's got a new little
Speaker 2: baby and she only lives close to me, and she said,
Speaker 2: oh thanks Mama, and just that little thing. You know,
Speaker 2: it's just taken a lot of years for that to happen.
Speaker 2: And and Mitch, you know, you know the dude with
Speaker 2: the West Coast Eagles top. He used to always tell them.
Speaker 1: I've met MITCHI came to a camp. Yep.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So Mitchell's in an amazing place. He's in a
Speaker 2: growth period and he's gone through a bit, but he's
Speaker 2: like comes in and has those deep, meaningful conversations. And
Speaker 2: both my ca and I've like both my kids really
Speaker 2: disrespected me a little bit, think that I was just hopeless.
Speaker 2: But I've just taken all my super and built like
Speaker 2: what I call Hotel TLC on my property here. It's
Speaker 2: seven hundred and twenty eight square met is. So I've
Speaker 2: built in a granny flat. I've got a studio apartment,
Speaker 2: and I got an Airbnb and it's called Hotel TLC.
Speaker 2: And my ratings on booking dot com are like I've
Speaker 2: got an award, a travel award, because they're nine point
Speaker 2: one out of ten and my Airbnb is getting four
Speaker 2: point nine out of five and I got a one
Speaker 2: hundred dollars in SuperHost award and I'm loving. I mean,
Speaker 2: this is what I'm meant to do. And you know,
Speaker 2: the people that come through here, a lot of them
Speaker 2: are drawn to me, just like this little spot opened
Speaker 2: up today. Yeah, the people who come to stay with
Speaker 2: me quite often leave with something important and something grounding.
Speaker 1: Well, you have beautiful energy and you have really beautiful intentions,
Speaker 1: so that matters, and that makes a difference. So I
Speaker 1: want to know, she said earlier, Hold fuck this up,
Speaker 1: so correct me if I get it wrong. But something
Speaker 1: like it's good that I'm in a place now where
Speaker 1: I love me and I'm happy to be just me.
Speaker 1: I'm happy to be not alone, but happy to be
Speaker 1: single because you're not alone because you've got friends and
Speaker 1: family and kids and grandkid. Now, congrats. Is the door
Speaker 1: open for a I know you're not looking, but is
Speaker 1: the door open for a relationship? Or is like not
Speaker 1: fuck that I don't trust them or I don't trust myself.
Speaker 2: No, I really do trust myself. I have no qualms
Speaker 2: about that. But my growth and on purpose, like I
Speaker 2: listen to you, I do a lot of other things,
Speaker 2: and I pick a topic each year and grow into that.
Speaker 2: This year it's you know, last year it was la boundaries,
Speaker 2: you know, and even me just learning to turn around
Speaker 2: and saying no, I'm sorry, that's not happening, or no
Speaker 2: I can't, or no you won't, and especially running an airbnb,
Speaker 2: you know, like I have to be tough on people.
Speaker 2: And so each year I'm I'm giving myself a challenge.
Speaker 2: And because I'm growing, I kind of feel that even
Speaker 2: if I met somebody at the beginning of the year,
Speaker 2: by the end of the year, id outgrowth and look,
Speaker 2: if the right person came along and we could have
Speaker 2: interesting conversations. I did quiz, so I've got a great
Speaker 2: quiz tribe, so you know, I'm really interested in facts
Speaker 2: and figures and crazy stuff. And if I had a
Speaker 2: person that came along that was a kindred spirit, then
Speaker 2: of course, and I don't feel mistrusting. I feel so
Speaker 2: much confidence in myself and also with my boundaries that
Speaker 2: if I turned around and met somebody today and their
Speaker 2: behavior wasn't appropriate, I would just turn around and say,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, that's not good enough, goodbye. Whereas way back
Speaker 2: when then, when I attracted a narcissist, it was like, oh, okay,
Speaker 2: I'm really sorry. You know, like people pleaser, and that's
Speaker 2: what all says in a book, you know, the amount
Speaker 2: of people who cancer are people pleases are amazing.
Speaker 1: And I think that you made a really good point
Speaker 1: before and you said something like you feel like the
Speaker 1: trauma from the trauma that you'd been through caused you cancer.
Speaker 1: And you know, the thing is that like stress and
Speaker 1: anxiety and overthinking and depression, while we kind of put
Speaker 1: those in the psychological and emotional baskets, there's a very
Speaker 1: real physiological consequence to all of those things. And we
Speaker 1: know now like that things like isolation and loneliness, which
Speaker 1: is a form of trauma. It's not the traditional trauma
Speaker 1: we think about, but isolation, loneliness, disconnection like these have
Speaker 1: an impact on our immune system. These have an impact
Speaker 1: on our physical health. These have an impact on our
Speaker 1: lifespan and health span. And in the old days, I
Speaker 1: would only talk about you know, exercise and sleep and food,
Speaker 1: and you know, maybe every now and then about anxiety.
Speaker 1: But these days I'm talking a lot about the power
Speaker 1: of love, kindness, social connection, intimacy, you know, be that
Speaker 1: romantic or not, or just being very close feeling like
Speaker 1: you belong, feeling valued, feeling seen, feeling loved, being loved,
Speaker 1: feeling safe, like all of these things that you wouldn't
Speaker 1: compare to vegetables and bloody jogging, but in many ways
Speaker 1: they're more important for our physical health then whether or
Speaker 1: not we've been to the gym in the life. And
Speaker 1: this is coming from a bloke who goes to the
Speaker 1: gym every day.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. And I remember this is something that you
Speaker 2: always say. I mean, when we started off this work
Speaker 2: with Jill, she said, well, you need to develop self
Speaker 2: love and self worth. And I remember saying, can you
Speaker 2: tell me which shop I can buy that apply? Because
Speaker 2: I don't know where to get that. But what you've
Speaker 2: talked about along, and this is definitely where how I
Speaker 2: got it, is that when you live in alignment with
Speaker 2: your beliefs, when that's how your self esteem grows. Every
Speaker 2: time you make a decision that is for yourself or
Speaker 2: the right decision, you know, it's quite easy. You know,
Speaker 2: you talk about a lot, do the right thing, do
Speaker 2: the wrong thing. You know, if you talk about doing
Speaker 2: the right thing and then you do the right thing,
Speaker 2: and it's taken a long time, It's taken a good
Speaker 2: ten years because I now live in alignment with my beliefs,
Speaker 2: which are family orientated, which are being myself. You know,
Speaker 2: I don't apologize for you know, not you know, being
Speaker 2: somebody not seeing myself. So it's like really quite funny.
Speaker 2: Like back in those days, in the middle of that relationship,
Speaker 2: I was absolutely wired. It would be a good way
Speaker 2: to put it, totally wired, like high alert and like
Speaker 2: they talk about walking on eggshells, and that's exactly what
Speaker 2: anybody a toxic narcissistic relationship is. And I was wired
Speaker 2: twenty four seven. Now I am so calm and chill
Speaker 2: that even if I have a bad thought, I have
Speaker 2: to sit down and have a good talk to myself
Speaker 2: and my mantra. Like when we did all the renovations,
Speaker 2: which most people find very stressful, I had I man,
Speaker 2: I'd project managed it, and the mantra on the job
Speaker 2: was nobody died unless somebody dies. I'm not going to
Speaker 2: worry because we're a week late. No one's going to
Speaker 2: die if I don't get this done.
Speaker 1: Do you think that for it's harder for women in
Speaker 1: that women and I'm generalizing here more empathetic, I think
Speaker 1: naturally more like most people that listen to my show Women,
Speaker 1: most people that come to my events of women. And
Speaker 1: you know this is not an idea or this is
Speaker 1: not a stab in the dark. I mean, I've got
Speaker 1: lots of data and lots of evidence to say that. Well,
Speaker 1: in my experience, my anecdotal experience, is that a lot
Speaker 1: of women think way more about their feelings and expressing
Speaker 1: their feelings and their mental and emotional health, and they're
Speaker 1: more up talking about it and whether or not they
Speaker 1: are inherently kinder or they just act that as in,
Speaker 1: they just express it more than men do. I feel
Speaker 1: like women can be because of all of those things,
Speaker 1: they can be more likely to be a people pleaser. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so what's And I know this is just you
Speaker 1: and me having a chat, and you're not a clinician,
Speaker 1: and neither am I really, but what's your advice for
Speaker 1: people who are fucking lifelong people pleases, chronic people pleasers,
Speaker 1: which you probably were? And I reckon even in my life,
Speaker 1: I've been not a chronic people pleaser, but I always
Speaker 1: wanted everyone to like me, and so I compromised a bit,
Speaker 1: you know, and I did dumb shit because I wanted to.
Speaker 1: I didn't want anyone to not like me because I
Speaker 1: was insecure.
Speaker 2: What's your advice, Well, when you are in that state,
Speaker 2: you are shat and you are empty. And where I
Speaker 2: was a people pleaser and one of my girlfriends did
Speaker 2: the best thing ever one day she said to me,
Speaker 2: when I spend an hour with you, I've got to
Speaker 2: go and have a cup of teina, lie down. You
Speaker 2: know I was dragging her energy out of her because
Speaker 2: I was so empty. Yes, and it's because you're empty
Speaker 2: that you're people pleasing to try and feel yourself up.
Speaker 2: But when you do the work and you become full,
Speaker 2: you feel and this is like I know you are
Speaker 2: as well. You must feel this as well. But when
Speaker 2: you are fulfilled, not what we call happy, but when
Speaker 2: you are fulfilled and joyous, you don't need to drag
Speaker 2: that out of anybody. You can quite happily give it
Speaker 2: to somebody, and you don't need to please anybody. You
Speaker 2: can just you know, when you've got it filled up,
Speaker 2: then it's the time to be a giver. And then
Speaker 2: that then adds to your self esteem because you know,
Speaker 2: you know, not everyone's going to like you, and you
Speaker 2: may give to a whole pot of people that don't
Speaker 2: even like you, But that's okay, because they might they
Speaker 2: might give it to somebody else, and that's you know,
Speaker 2: it's like playing it forward and and that's what that's
Speaker 2: what fills you up, and that's what makes you feel whole.
Speaker 2: And you'll never ever ever get anything that you need
Speaker 2: from another person. I really. I know that sounds weird,
Speaker 2: but you just won't. And really, I kind of think
Speaker 2: you've got no business being in a relationship until you
Speaker 2: have filled yourself up, because I don't think it's a
Speaker 2: fair relationship. I think that if two people were just
Speaker 2: needing off each other, I don't think that's healthy. I
Speaker 2: think that two people who are fully present in themselves
Speaker 2: and love themselves got the best bet of making a
Speaker 2: go at things well.
Speaker 1: I think also, yeah, I think also some people, Oh god,
Speaker 1: I'm so careful that I know you can tell I
Speaker 1: get a few emails. Okay, this is what I think.
Speaker 1: Fucking I think some people, men and women see things
Speaker 1: like marriage as a solution to a problem. Right now,
Speaker 1: I'm not saying marriage is bad or being in a relation.
Speaker 1: You know, my last fucked, I'm fucked. All I need
Speaker 1: is to be in a relationship. No for God's sake,
Speaker 1: that's the last thing you need to figure you the
Speaker 1: fuck out before you take all that emotional psychological bullshit
Speaker 1: into someone else's energy. Feel it's like no, no, like
Speaker 1: that person is not going to fix you, solve you,
Speaker 1: or save you. And this is the And I think also,
Speaker 1: I think because some people panic about not having someone
Speaker 1: and so then they lower their standards and then it's like, wow,
Speaker 1: well he she whatever. They you know, they tick enough boxes,
Speaker 1: and it's like if they meet certain criteria or you know,
Speaker 1: they're kind of in the ballpark, whereas there's no you know,
Speaker 1: and I'm not saying that's the majority, but that definitely happens.
Speaker 1: It's not like, oh my god, God, absolutely and besotted
Speaker 1: head over heels, I love this person. No, they're single.
Speaker 1: I'm single and I'm thirty seven, so fucking let's roll
Speaker 1: the dice, ticken yeah, well yeah, or even just I
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know. But having said that, the
Speaker 1: fuck do I know? I'm sixty and single. I'm a
Speaker 1: fucking idiot. And also, there's a few relationships that I've
Speaker 1: seen get together and I thought not a chance, and
Speaker 1: I was wrong, So don't listen to me. Did you
Speaker 1: say you're writing another book?
Speaker 2: No, I didn't. I didn't say I was, but I
Speaker 2: really do feel I should. I think that's on the cards.
Speaker 2: I think my big goal this year was with all
Speaker 2: my vision board, was a trip to the UK to
Speaker 2: track down my heritage in tallow and County Carlo and Ireland.
Speaker 2: So I just loved all that in I'm leaving on
Speaker 2: the first of August and in doing England, Ireland, Scotland
Speaker 2: over title of August with half with my girlfriend and
Speaker 2: half are my aim. Wow, and I just because I'm
Speaker 2: just cool to do it. I feel that it's going
Speaker 2: to grow, you know, it's going to be some personal
Speaker 2: growth involved in that.
Speaker 1: I had. I have a mildly not amusing, funny but
Speaker 1: interesting story, and that is I got contacted by a
Speaker 1: lady who lives in I think over your side, I
Speaker 1: think in Perth. I've got a feeling she was working
Speaker 1: in the minds anyway. She was Irish, is Irish and
Speaker 1: it was a while ago now, it's like maybe six
Speaker 1: years ago, maybe just a little bit before COVID and
Speaker 1: I didn't know, but I had this whole group of
Speaker 1: people in Ireland that followed my stuff and were quiet,
Speaker 1: and they had a Facebook page and they were this
Speaker 1: whole group and it was big. It was like one
Speaker 1: hundred of people and they would talk about my my
Speaker 1: all my shit, right, which was lovely, which was lovely.
Speaker 1: And anyway, that Irish lady from Wa reached out and said,
Speaker 1: what would it take, like how much would we have
Speaker 1: to pay to get you to one? Are you're interested?
Speaker 1: And to how much would we have to pay to
Speaker 1: get you to come to Ireland and talk to our
Speaker 1: essentially our Craigarp group, Right, And I'm like, one, that's
Speaker 1: completely gorgeous. I so much love that. And two my
Speaker 1: mum's mum her name was Molly Malone, right, and so
Speaker 1: I have this, Yeah, so I have this. I'm like
Speaker 1: one eighth Irish And anyway, I said, just pay for
Speaker 1: my expenses and I'll obviously you know that's still going
Speaker 1: to cost them, but I said, just pay all my bill,
Speaker 1: like pay the airfare, pay their com whatever, and I'll
Speaker 1: do the talk for free. So you know, so I'll
Speaker 1: fly over, I'll make zero dollars, but I'll get to
Speaker 1: see where my roots are from. Anyway, I went to
Speaker 1: this little place called Tullamore shout out to the people
Speaker 1: in Tullamore. Oh my god. You know, like I've been
Speaker 1: I've been to a lot of places, like a lot
Speaker 1: of countries, a lot, and I've spoken in a lot
Speaker 1: of places. And there was something energetically weird Tracy Lee
Speaker 1: Connor about I genuinely felt and I didn't expect this,
Speaker 1: so there was no like psychosomitic. I felt like I'd
Speaker 1: been there before, and I felt like even though I
Speaker 1: didn't know the people, I felt like I knew them
Speaker 1: and they were the warmest people I've ever met anywhere
Speaker 1: in the world, and so much so right Like it's
Speaker 1: a small town, Tullamore. I think it's like ten thousand people.
Speaker 1: I think it's like an hour and a half out
Speaker 1: of Dublin, but people like I had at least a
Speaker 1: dozen different people offer for me to stay with them,
Speaker 1: Like I was like, and that asked me where I'm staying,
Speaker 1: and I said, Oh, I'm staying at you know, the
Speaker 1: whatever hotel And they're like, oh, you want to be
Speaker 1: doing that, You'll be staying with us. Oh, you'd be coming,
Speaker 1: you'd be staying with us. You won't be standing there, No,
Speaker 1: can't be doing that. And I'm like, like they were
Speaker 1: so nice. I'm like, I'm definitely not coming and staying
Speaker 1: in your house, but it would freak me out to
Speaker 1: Oh but fuck, it was a fun trip and the
Speaker 1: nice Oh.
Speaker 2: Yeah, through that way.
Speaker 1: You'll love it. You'll you'll dig it all right, going.
Speaker 2: Right through that way, So you'll have you done your
Speaker 2: ancestry DNA.
Speaker 1: No, I should do it.
Speaker 2: I should do it. I thought I was only a
Speaker 2: little bit about twenty five percent Irish. Turns out I'm
Speaker 2: fifty four percent.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's you and I could be bloody related. Who
Speaker 1: knows tell people how to find you, follow you by
Speaker 1: your book all that stuff.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, you know something I've COVID got me.
Speaker 2: I've done nothing in the book under the bed. I've
Speaker 2: just turned around and turned into a hermit and I've
Speaker 2: got to change that. But you know, tl t LC
Speaker 2: one six zero two at live dot com dot au
Speaker 2: about the only way to get in touch with me
Speaker 2: or I'm on Facebook.
Speaker 1: All right, And if you really want to get in
Speaker 1: touch with Tracy, email me via the site info at
Speaker 1: craigharper dot net and we'll make sure that she gets
Speaker 1: forward that email to her. Hey, thanks for sending me
Speaker 1: an email today and thanks for that. I feel like
Speaker 1: you and I were all over the place in that chat,
Speaker 1: but I feel like it's okay.
Speaker 2: I think that that's just that's who we are.
Speaker 1: It's like two dogs with three dicks, just all over
Speaker 1: the shop. Very excited, very excited me.
Speaker 2: I get there in the end. I've got to lean
Speaker 2: into my strengths.
Speaker 1: All right, stay there. We'll say you by affair, but thanks, Trace,
Speaker 1: appreciate you no ways.
Speaker 2: Thanks great