Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average person is never
Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world today,
Speaker 1: I spake, We've just senter Price. I think it's fair
Speaker 1: to say Just Center is a controversial character, an Aboriginal
Speaker 1: lady who is a senator in Federal Parliament and has
Speaker 1: been the Shadow Minister for Indigenous Affairs. It's twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1: Her views on Aboriginal issues often caused division, but as
Speaker 1: you'll find out today, she's prepared to stand by her comments.
Speaker 1: We spoke about a life and her views on a
Speaker 1: wide range of Indigenous issues. Let's see what you think
Speaker 1: about Senator just Center Price Ciner. I've followed your career
Speaker 1: for a long time. You're not hard to hard to miss.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I think I'm all over the place.
Speaker 2: I can't even escape myself.
Speaker 1: And look, I think the type of topics you're talking about, mayors,
Speaker 1: you're talking about, it's polarizing and they're difficult. Conversations that
Speaker 1: you have in the position that you take on certain
Speaker 1: issues are always always hard. I'm going to ask a
Speaker 1: personal question first up? What toll has it taken on you?
Speaker 1: People would recognize you as the voice of the referendum
Speaker 1: of supporting the no vote and different sences that you've taken.
Speaker 1: What toll has it taken on you personally?
Speaker 2: Well, there's a sense of not feeling like my life
Speaker 2: is my own. I guess I know that my kids
Speaker 2: and my husband probably feel that I'm no longer you know,
Speaker 2: this sort of care free, more relaxed person than what
Speaker 2: I used to be. And in many ways sometimes they
Speaker 2: can see me as distant because my head is so
Speaker 2: full of what's going on. You know what, I'm what
Speaker 2: the latest challenge is, the latest thing I'm trying to
Speaker 2: find an answer for, and those sorts of things. And yeah,
Speaker 2: there's there's that sort of sense of yeah, not feeling
Speaker 2: like my life is my own anymore.
Speaker 1: I understand that. Do you have the ability to switch
Speaker 1: off when you when you can step boy, when you're
Speaker 1: with family and friends?
Speaker 2: I do. I do, And sometimes, like again, my family
Speaker 2: will say, you know your armor's up, you need to
Speaker 2: take your armor off. Go home and take your armor off.
Speaker 2: And it can be hard to get into that right away.
Speaker 2: And but yeah, look, I love being able to chill
Speaker 2: out at home, be mum, you know, copper roasting from
Speaker 2: my kids and my husband, be brought back down to
Speaker 2: earth again. And yeah, it's my favorite favorite thing to do,
Speaker 2: even just being at home doing the dishes, like feeling
Speaker 2: like a normal person.
Speaker 1: It's good to dumb things down a little bit sometimes,
Speaker 1: isn't it.
Speaker 2: Ye?
Speaker 1: Your pressure pressure pressure, Okay, this is my escape. I
Speaker 1: can be who I want to be there, just on that.
Speaker 1: There's so much to talk about. Congratulations on your book too,
Speaker 1: it's a it's an interesting read. You've certainly lived a life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, it's been. It's been an credible journey
Speaker 2: and a very daunting at times process and especially on
Speaker 2: the cusp of its release, knowing just how much of
Speaker 2: my life I guess I'd put out there for the
Speaker 2: public to learn about and how thinking of how that
Speaker 2: might be received as well as but you know, cathartic
Speaker 2: at times, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to have
Speaker 2: been able to do it well.
Speaker 1: Your public profile is very much linked to your Indigenous background,
Speaker 1: and quite often you're the person called in to make comments.
Speaker 1: Do you when you speak as an Aboriginal lady, do
Speaker 1: you feel that you're speaking for all Aboriginal people from
Speaker 1: your life experience.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, definitely from my life experience. And that's a thing, right.
Speaker 2: I Mean, it's a funny situation because when we look
Speaker 2: at other people like we don't we don't see a
Speaker 2: white fellow speaking and go, oh, they're speaking on behalf
Speaker 2: of all white fellows, you know. But but for Indigenous
Speaker 2: Australians it's a funny sort of position because on one hand,
Speaker 2: you're going, you know, you've got your detractors, so you
Speaker 2: don't speak on behalf of me. I was like, well, actually,
Speaker 2: never claim to speak on behalf of you. But then
Speaker 2: you're told that you know, if you're not saying what
Speaker 2: they what your detractors want to hear, then you're a
Speaker 2: sellout or you're a traitor. Well, so what is it
Speaker 2: you know? Am I speaking? Am I supposed to be
Speaker 2: speaking on behalf of you? Or not? But ultimately what
Speaker 2: I my lived experience and coming from being able to
Speaker 2: be the voice for those that want me to be
Speaker 2: their voice, those those that don't get the opportunity to
Speaker 2: be heard and really vulnerable marginalized people that need need
Speaker 2: their truth to be heard. That's that's really you know
Speaker 2: who I'm about speaking on behalf of and for in
Speaker 2: order to make a positive difference in their lives and
Speaker 2: to save lives. Really, that's really what it's about. And
Speaker 2: let's face it, the truth is bloody confronting, but it's
Speaker 2: necessary to put out there to overcome our great challenges.
Speaker 1: Well, we're going to break it down the challenges and
Speaker 1: the positions you take on a lot of issues. But
Speaker 1: I can see the conundrum you've got there that you
Speaker 1: don't speak for all of us. But if you speak,
Speaker 1: why you're speaking on behalf And I'll chime in as
Speaker 1: the white fellow at the table here too. There is
Speaker 1: a perception. There is a perception that oh, you're Aboriginal,
Speaker 1: therefore you're speaking for other Aboriginals, and like, is it
Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong? But two hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: different nations across the continent.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, look, I mean in terms of language groups
Speaker 2: that once upon a time there were of a five
Speaker 2: hundred languages spoken across the continent. And you know there's
Speaker 2: like a handful still around now as first languages. But yeah,
Speaker 2: so we're talking different, you know, culturally linguistically diverse people
Speaker 2: right across this continent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, at one stage, okay, well, look diving into and
Speaker 1: we've got so much to talk about. Your life, your upbringing,
Speaker 1: you stepping into parliament, your life is a politician, your
Speaker 1: thoughts on that world, which is probably more confronting than
Speaker 1: the indigenous world in different ways, or more divisive. But
Speaker 1: I think a good way to launch into it your
Speaker 1: maiden speech at Parliament and it was two thy and
Speaker 1: twenty two. I've just pulled an extract out from the
Speaker 1: maiden speech. I'll read it through and then we'll break
Speaker 1: down some things there. If that's okay. My vision, my hope,
Speaker 1: my goal is that we can affect change it we'll
Speaker 1: see women, children and other victims in these communities become
Speaker 1: as safe as any of those living in Sydney, Melbourne
Speaker 1: or any other Australian city. My goal is to halt
Speaker 1: the pointless virtue signaling and focus on solutions that bring
Speaker 1: real change that changes the lives of Australia's most vulnerable citizens,
Speaker 1: Solutions that give them real lives, not the enduring nightmare
Speaker 1: of violence and terror that they currently live. It is
Speaker 1: not good enough that the streets of our Northern Territory
Speaker 1: towns and other towns across regional Australia have gangs of
Speaker 1: children age from six to sixteen wandering and around with
Speaker 1: no adult supervision in the early hours of the morning.
Speaker 1: It's not good enough that almost all of these children
Speaker 1: have witnessed or been subject to normalized alcohol abuse, domestic
Speaker 1: family and sexual violence throughout their young lives, and is
Speaker 1: the reason for their presence on our streets. Such neglecting
Speaker 1: great numbers would not be accepted in prosperous suburbs of
Speaker 1: any of our capital cities. Extract from your speech, you
Speaker 1: can't really argue with the sentiment there.
Speaker 2: Yeah right, I mean it's true why we're Australia is
Speaker 2: an incredibly tolerant nation, but we can be tolerant to
Speaker 2: a fault, to the point that you know that we
Speaker 2: did do have children as young as six and six
Speaker 2: to sixteen on our streets late at night, at the
Speaker 2: early hours of the morning, that you know, those circumstances
Speaker 2: continue in twenty twenty five. And when we contrast that
Speaker 2: and see a lot of you know, a lot of
Speaker 2: a lot of people living in our in our in
Speaker 2: our cities. When they do visit places like Alice Springs
Speaker 2: or you know, remote communities, there is a stark contrast
Speaker 2: in lives, in the way lives are lived, and in
Speaker 2: many ways it's a real culture shock as well. But
Speaker 2: this is just reality for us in places like our
Speaker 2: springs and remote communities, and that's what needs to be
Speaker 2: better understood and we shouldn't excuse it. We should never
Speaker 2: excuse use it, or you know, especially especially when we
Speaker 2: want to. I mean, I seek to hold accountable perpetrators
Speaker 2: within my own family, within my own community, but for
Speaker 2: some reason that's frowned upon to do so because our
Speaker 2: perpetrators are also framed as victims of colonization. But that
Speaker 2: doesn't help the situation. So yeah, again it's about confronting
Speaker 2: reality and demonstrating to the rest of the country, this
Speaker 2: is the reality of what goes on in these places
Speaker 2: where we experience the highest rates of marginalization in the country.
Speaker 1: Right, understanding that generational trauma. Where As yeah, it could
Speaker 1: be said as an excuse, but your your position, if
Speaker 1: I understand, is you want to break the cycle. It's
Speaker 1: got to stop somewhere totally.
Speaker 2: Look, you know, trauma is as a human experience and
Speaker 2: it doesn't discriminate like human beings around the globe have
Speaker 2: experienced trauma and intergenerational trauma if you like. So why
Speaker 2: is it that it I guess we allow it in
Speaker 2: some ways in the indigenous community to prevent us from
Speaker 2: progressing as individuals in our own right. You know, yes,
Speaker 2: we have to acknowledge it and realize that it's there
Speaker 2: and it exists. But we also have to acknowledge that
Speaker 2: we as human beings and individuals, without considering our racial
Speaker 2: heritage or anything like that, are capable of wonderful, great things,
Speaker 2: and there is We're empowered when we take responsibility not
Speaker 2: just for our own circumstances, but when we take responsibility
Speaker 2: for how we are within our own families and communities
Speaker 2: at the same time. That is what that's where empowerment
Speaker 2: comes from, as personal responsibility. A lot of the time,
Speaker 2: the argument, the political argument, is that we don't have
Speaker 2: to because it's colonization's fault and those that have stood
Speaker 2: to gain from colonization are somehow also responsible. But we've
Speaker 2: all gained something from colonization. As much as it has
Speaker 2: played a part in the detriment of Indigenous Australians, they're
Speaker 2: also there are also aspects that we have been able
Speaker 2: to progress forward from at the same time.
Speaker 1: Okay, in that, just from that quote, the lives of
Speaker 1: Australia's most vulnerable citizens, you're referring in that in context,
Speaker 1: in full context, you're referring to Indigenous people.
Speaker 2: But yes, talking best and I guess in that talking
Speaker 2: about marginalized Indigenous Australians too, because you know, as I've
Speaker 2: always said, we're not just marginalized because of our racial heritage.
Speaker 2: There are some Indigenous Australians doing, living very successful lives
Speaker 2: and a growing middle class. But I'm talking specifically about
Speaker 2: marginalized Indigenous Australians.
Speaker 1: Okay, why can you offer them? It's a real broad question,
Speaker 1: and I'll warn you I'm probably going to ask some
Speaker 1: dumb questions. But it's such absolutely, it's such a complex
Speaker 1: issue and looking at it from the outside, and I've
Speaker 1: been involved in Indigenous matters, but I'm a white guy
Speaker 1: and I never speak with great knowledge. I speak with
Speaker 1: experiences what I've seen. But so if I ask some
Speaker 1: dumb questions, just cut me some latitude on this. But
Speaker 1: we'll try and we'll try and get people across to understand.
Speaker 2: It's all about understanding.
Speaker 1: Talking about So why do you think the Indigenous community
Speaker 1: looked at there's our vulnerable citizens in the country.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, in terms of our most marginalized, we
Speaker 2: experienced the highest rates of domestic and family violence, of
Speaker 2: sexual abuse, of neglect, of all those things, the lowest
Speaker 2: rates of you know, education, and lowest rates of employment.
Speaker 2: That's that's the most marginalized in this country are predominantly
Speaker 2: Indigenous Australians. And in my previous work as part of
Speaker 2: the Center for Independent Studies heading up the Indigenous Research Program,
Speaker 2: what we uncovered was that our most marginalized exist in
Speaker 2: regional and remote parts of this country, but particularly so
Speaker 2: more acutely within places like the Northern Territory, Western Australia
Speaker 2: and North Queensland, Far North Queensland. And so for me,
Speaker 2: it's really important to identify who they are, which things
Speaker 2: like Closing the Gap Report and all these initiatives don't
Speaker 2: necessarily prioritize the needs of our most marginalized, but take
Speaker 2: a blanket approach toward Indigenous Australians to suggest that we're
Speaker 2: all marginalized and just because we're indigenous, right, And as
Speaker 2: I say, we've got to be far more focused and
Speaker 2: far more honest about how we approach that.
Speaker 1: And that type of position I would imagine within the
Speaker 1: Indigenous community across the board that might bring some conflict
Speaker 1: to or some pushback.
Speaker 2: It does in that an industry has developed out of
Speaker 2: you know, indigenous direction in Indigenous policy, there is you know,
Speaker 2: my focus is on well, you know, the figure of
Speaker 2: thirty three billion dollars being spent on Indigenous affairs was
Speaker 2: determined I think back in twenty seventeen, and we don't
Speaker 2: have a current figure on how much that spend is
Speaker 2: right now, but as I said, it's usually spent on
Speaker 2: measures to support and advance Indigenous Australians without without saying okay,
Speaker 2: but who are we actually looking at here? And so
Speaker 2: an industry has developed out of that. I mean, there
Speaker 2: are many livelihoods that have been created in that space.
Speaker 2: There are many organizations that are tasked with improving the
Speaker 2: lives of marginalized Indigenous Australians that, in my view, many
Speaker 2: of which are failing. But if I point these things out,
Speaker 2: I'm going to be targeted, you know, if I if
Speaker 2: I want to take a more honest approach to this matter,
Speaker 2: I will be targeted because there are those who are
Speaker 2: going to feel threatened by the fact that I'm pointing, Well,
Speaker 2: it's not just governments that are failing, it's those that
Speaker 2: are funded by governments that are failing. And there is
Speaker 2: very little accountability in this space. So calling for these
Speaker 2: things will naturally ensure that I that I have enemies.
Speaker 1: And in calling that they just clarify it where the
Speaker 1: money is not going where it supposedly should go to.
Speaker 1: Or people who have said creating an industry and I'm
Speaker 1: guessing here, but it wouldn't just be Aboriginal people are
Speaker 1: making a profit from it or creating an industry. So
Speaker 1: when you want it scrutinize, you want it scrutinized across
Speaker 1: the board, not just the money that's gone to the Blackfellows.
Speaker 1: Want whoever's got control of this money and how it's
Speaker 1: been used.
Speaker 2: Yeah, whoever's receiving funds that are supposed to go to
Speaker 2: improving the lives of Indigenous Australians.
Speaker 1: Okay, you touched on health, education, crime. What sort of
Speaker 1: figures are we looking at? And again, it's hard to
Speaker 1: generalize because we're going back into exactly what you've pointed
Speaker 1: out where we make mistakes. But it is known that
Speaker 1: the high incarceration rate as an ex scop, I know
Speaker 1: the challenges that corrective services, the high incarceration of Indigenous people.
Speaker 1: Health is a problem, education, employment, the welfare system will
Speaker 1: relying on welfare. What if you're people that haven't really
Speaker 1: bored into it, tell them what we're talking about on
Speaker 1: the scale.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Look, an incarceration is a huge issue, but
Speaker 2: sometimes I feel like we try to deal with the
Speaker 2: symptoms and not the causes of the matter. And there's
Speaker 2: I mean, I can recommend a really good book by
Speaker 2: Don Born Weatherburn called Arresting Incarceration Pathways out of Indigenous Imprisonment,
Speaker 2: who headed up the Bureau of criminology here in New
Speaker 2: South Wales for.
Speaker 1: So of him and yeah, yeah, yeah, And.
Speaker 2: Basically he identifies that I think it's between sixty five
Speaker 2: and seventy percent of incarcerated Indigenous men are incarcerated for
Speaker 2: acts of violence. And I mean, it's it's a horrible truth.
Speaker 2: But these are cycles, obviously generational cycles. And my argument
Speaker 2: is that we need to this particular issue because if
Speaker 2: we address the violence issue, we'll see a dramatic decrease
Speaker 2: in rates of incarceration amongst Indigenous men, but also Indigenous women.
Speaker 2: This is increasing in terms of incarceration rates. The reason
Speaker 2: why Indigenous women are being incarcerated, and and one of
Speaker 2: an argument that I've always put forward, which I still
Speaker 2: you know to this day, well I'll always get pushed
Speaker 2: back on, is the fact that I know from lived
Speaker 2: experience that in places like where we have the highest
Speaker 2: rates of DV in the Northern Territory is that in
Speaker 2: traditional culture violence is accepted, but all small scale societies
Speaker 2: on the face of the earth used violence as a
Speaker 2: means of social control. And for us in Central Australia,
Speaker 2: the frontier was not that long ago. My grandparents first
Speaker 2: saw white fellows in their early adolescence. So traditional culture
Speaker 2: that accepted violence as a means of social control is
Speaker 2: partly the reason why we have such high rates of violence,
Speaker 2: because men, women and children will act out violently because
Speaker 2: it's accepted in traditional culture. But also there are elements
Speaker 2: of traditional culture that suggests that women are not as
Speaker 2: important as men. You know, it's patriarchal society, and if
Speaker 2: if we don't acknowledge this, we're not going to overcome
Speaker 2: the DV crisis that we're confronted with. And again in
Speaker 2: the book, it's lived experience my mother becoming a mother,
Speaker 2: at being pregnant at thirteen, at a mother at fourteen,
Speaker 2: and under those circumstances. It's questionable as to how that
Speaker 2: came about. You know, she won't provide so much detail,
Speaker 2: but I don't believe that my mother was willingly. You know,
Speaker 2: she was forced into a relationship with the father of
Speaker 2: my brother, because in traditional terms, if you have a
Speaker 2: childhood to an abaginal man, you have to then be
Speaker 2: married to that man in traditional terms. So there's those
Speaker 2: elements of traditional culture that play out significantly in the
Speaker 2: lives of women in places like the Northern Territory and
Speaker 2: more broadly, they don't have opportunity to speak or have
Speaker 2: a platform, a media platform, or are often if so,
Speaker 2: are too scared to talk about the reality of what
Speaker 2: goes on in communities. And then in the broader context
Speaker 2: and indigenous affairs, the narrative is that we simply blame
Speaker 2: colonization for what's going on. And also, as I've been told,
Speaker 2: you know, I shouldn't speak ill of our own people
Speaker 2: because that is supposed to then encourage racists toward us.
Speaker 2: We'll hang on a second. If we take it all back,
Speaker 2: what we want to do is stop people from losing
Speaker 2: their lives. Racism is the problem of the racist. It's
Speaker 2: their mental health issue to deal with. We shouldn't make
Speaker 2: it ours right. But what we should do is ensure
Speaker 2: that our most vulnerable, our women and children, are kept safe.
Speaker 2: And that is my argument. So if it means that
Speaker 2: we have to highlight the reality of the circumstances, if
Speaker 2: it means that we have to highlight in traditional culture
Speaker 2: we do accept violence as a means of social control,
Speaker 2: but that we shouldn't and have those hard conversations, then
Speaker 2: that's what I'm doing, and that's what I'm prepared to do,
Speaker 2: And we should all be prepared to do that.
Speaker 1: And saying that, when you explain it that way, it
Speaker 1: sounds quite reasonable. But the pushback is, well, you disrespecting
Speaker 1: our culture or this is our business, this is the
Speaker 1: way we deal things. I think in your book your
Speaker 1: auntie that disappeared and suspected murder a long time ago,
Speaker 1: and that was a horrendous situation, but it felt, and
Speaker 1: I put my hat on as a homicide detective, that
Speaker 1: no one wanted to to talk about it. There would
Speaker 1: have been people that could have offered something and chose
Speaker 1: not to come forth because of the shame of coming forward.
Speaker 2: Well absolutely, not just the shame, but probably the circumstances
Speaker 2: around it. That my aunt's promised husband had already murdered
Speaker 2: and done time after murdering his first wife, but that
Speaker 2: under again under customary law, she didn't want to go
Speaker 2: to that relationship and be forced into it, and she
Speaker 2: was being forced into it. But under customery law, he
Speaker 2: had every right to punish her for, you know, not
Speaker 2: not doing as was her obligation to do, was to
Speaker 2: go and be his wife. And so those involved in
Speaker 2: that circumstance that were forcing her into that, we're also
Speaker 2: doing it on the belief that it was appropriate culturally
Speaker 2: appropriate to do so. And you know, the saddest part
Speaker 2: about that whole thing is that her father, who was
Speaker 2: a very prominent man, my mother's uncle and you know,
Speaker 2: held up as a revered elder and a land rights
Speaker 2: activist and all those things, evidently knew what went on,
Speaker 2: but took that secret to his grave and in that
Speaker 2: also told a story that she had run away, that
Speaker 2: she has had eight sons living in Queensland, has eight sons.
Speaker 2: He he he ensured that that story you know, made
Speaker 2: the rounds was was, which is part of a cover
Speaker 2: up as far as i'm co Yeah, that's right, because
Speaker 2: why would you why would you do that if you
Speaker 2: in fact you know your daughter is not really alive.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a it's a sad case. And I know
Speaker 1: you've still hoped to get get answers. So yeah, good luck,
Speaker 1: good luck with that. I'm doing what you've probably gets
Speaker 1: you in the trouble a lot of the times because
Speaker 1: we're focusing on negative aspects of the culture. But let's say,
Speaker 1: and quite often I hear you talk about, okay, things
Speaker 1: like you've just explained, there there's a lot of positives
Speaker 1: about the culture, and there's some really I can only
Speaker 1: speak from my experience. I've met some really impressive male elders. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: some what I would consider good role models.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. And in my book, you know, I talk
Speaker 2: a lot about my grandfather and my grandfather's story, and
Speaker 2: I think my grandfather was revolutionary forward thinker for a
Speaker 2: man of his time, who embraced change instead of fighting it,
Speaker 2: if you like, because you know, he knew that life
Speaker 2: was tough. You know, before white fellows came along, it
Speaker 2: was killed or be killed in terms of the when
Speaker 2: you would come across your traditional enemies. You had to
Speaker 2: live off the land in a very harsh desert environment.
Speaker 2: And when this change came, he knew had to be
Speaker 2: he had to be part of it because it meant
Speaker 2: not just surviving, but thriving. And my grandfather also, I
Speaker 2: guess I'd get it from him where he pushed back
Speaker 2: on tradition in that when he and my grandmother got together,
Speaker 2: my grandmother was already part of a polygamous marriage, was
Speaker 2: like a third wife, and my grandfather and grandmother wanted
Speaker 2: to be together, and so my grandfather defied tradition. He
Speaker 2: copped it a couple of times and got a beating
Speaker 2: from the traditional promised husband, but in the end he
Speaker 2: was able to then take my grandmother as his wife.
Speaker 2: And when he saw that that my mother wanted to
Speaker 2: make her own choices and fought to have an education,
Speaker 2: he backed her up in that. You know, he could
Speaker 2: have very easily said to my mother, look, you, while
Speaker 2: you've escaped your first marriage, and I wouldn't call it
Speaker 2: a marriage, you are actually supposed to be traditionally becoming
Speaker 2: a second wife in the marriage that your older sisters
Speaker 2: involved in. You need to go to that now if
Speaker 2: you're not going to be with this horrible, violent individual.
Speaker 2: But both my mum's traditional promised husband and my grandfather
Speaker 2: put my mum's wishes before traditional culture. To me, they're
Speaker 2: the kind of men that are you know, they're all throughout,
Speaker 2: and they're wonderful men who care and love for their families.
Speaker 2: And you know, that's why I guess I've always celebrated
Speaker 2: my grandfather for that, for the man that he was
Speaker 2: and the love that he gave and the things that
Speaker 2: he believed in. And there are absolutely a lot of
Speaker 2: men like that. I know, there are men that think
Speaker 2: much like I do. But for fear of retribution, you know,
Speaker 2: they keep that to themselves as well, because men can
Speaker 2: also be targeted violently. Men are also victims of violence
Speaker 2: as well good men. So you know, when people try
Speaker 2: to argue that I paint all of our men as horrible,
Speaker 2: when all I'm doing is looking at the facts, When
Speaker 2: all I'm saying is Okay, our kids are experiencing experiencing
Speaker 2: the highest rates of sexual abuse. To say that doesn't
Speaker 2: mean to say that all our men are pedophiles. That's
Speaker 2: not what I'm saying. And in terms of wonderful aspects
Speaker 2: about culture, you know, I often share those as well,
Speaker 2: like the fact that you know, I was brought up
Speaker 2: by my elders to believe that if you are conceived
Speaker 2: on this country, because what we believe is that you're
Speaker 2: when you're conceived, your baby spirit has leapt from the
Speaker 2: ground into your mother's belly, giving you your personal dreaming,
Speaker 2: your connection to that country by the creator ancestor that
Speaker 2: created that country. You now are connected to that creative ancestor,
Speaker 2: that's your personal dreaming. So that anyone who's conceived on
Speaker 2: this country is also connected to this country spiritually in
Speaker 2: that way, regardless of racial heritage. You know, that's the
Speaker 2: part of my culture that I love and I celebrate,
Speaker 2: which is about being completely inclusive and recognizing others as
Speaker 2: human beings, not as people divided by race. And that
Speaker 2: to me is what true reconciliation looks like.
Speaker 1: Okay, we've got right into the hard stuff without even
Speaker 1: finding out a little bit about yourself. So tell us
Speaker 1: where you were born and what you were just relaying there.
Speaker 1: I was reading that in your book and I found
Speaker 1: it fascinating and very educational, so it was interesting.
Speaker 2: So my parents were living on Melville Island when I
Speaker 2: was born, So I was born in Darwin and a
Speaker 2: week after my birth flew back to the islands and
Speaker 2: spent spent some few more months there. Mom and dad
Speaker 2: were there for a few more months before they decided
Speaker 2: to move to the Kimberly. But given that my conception
Speaker 2: site comes from Teewee Country and the Mangotolby family pretty
Speaker 2: much adopted us as family. And I share, you know,
Speaker 2: the dreaming spirit with the Utika Bay Tikabanger, which is
Speaker 2: crocodile dreaming clan up on the Tiwi Islands. And so
Speaker 2: you know, if if I go back there and during ceremony,
Speaker 2: participate and dance with the crocodile clan. That's my connection
Speaker 2: to the Tewee Islands, my personal dreamings, my inherited dreamings
Speaker 2: coming from my Wabury side of the family ung Napa
Speaker 2: which is rain and warliw fire. And so my responsibility
Speaker 2: is in Wadbury Country around those choko By stories, so
Speaker 2: around Nappa and fire random fire. But yeah, so Mum
Speaker 2: and Dad moved to took another teaching job in the
Speaker 2: Kimberly and Nunkenbar in community of Nunkolnbar. So I was
Speaker 2: just a toddler when they took that job. And yeah,
Speaker 2: we lived in like a little in a caravan basically
Speaker 2: in that didn't have very good air conditioning and would
Speaker 2: live through the wet the wet season and under really
Speaker 2: incredible conditions. Like I just sort of think I could
Speaker 2: probably never live in the Kimberley like that. Again now
Speaker 2: understanding in many ways I can't remember because I was
Speaker 2: a toddler, But how Mum and Dad did that, and
Speaker 2: especially Mum being a desert woman growing up in a
Speaker 2: dry climate, yeah, it amazes me. Just before I turned three,
Speaker 2: Mum and Dad decided to move to Alice Springs, so
Speaker 2: a bit closer to Yundamu where Mom's from, a bit
Speaker 2: closer to family. And yeah, I mean all my life
Speaker 2: I've been spent a lot of time at at under Moves,
Speaker 2: like a second home, because all my family lived there,
Speaker 2: you know, spend a lot of time as a kid,
Speaker 2: would go camping, like mom and Dad would just pick
Speaker 2: up and we'd be gone out bush or at camping
Speaker 2: John and find the next lot of rock art that
Speaker 2: Dad felt like he needed to go and discover, or
Speaker 2: you know, going out with family and going hunting and
Speaker 2: with my my aunties and my grandmother and Mum and
Speaker 2: my cousins just walking around barefoot, you know, out on
Speaker 2: our country and and yeah, my my, my, my auntie
Speaker 2: bopping to Goanna's on the head at once because they're mating,
Speaker 2: you know, and all kinds of wonderful skills. You get
Speaker 2: two in one that with that if you can come
Speaker 2: across two goannas like that. But yeah, that was and
Speaker 2: a lot of my family living in town camps around
Speaker 2: Alice Springs as well, So a lot of time in
Speaker 2: in town.
Speaker 1: Camps and in the in the town camps, you were
Speaker 1: seeing good and the bad. A lot of lot of
Speaker 1: lot of the bad, I would imagine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, I mean, I have really happy memories too,
Speaker 2: in town camps and just being with my cousins and stuff,
Speaker 2: and but yeah, there's there's some really, it's certainly balanced
Speaker 2: with some really you know, horrible memories as well. And
Speaker 2: seeing seeing a woman in my extended family, her little
Speaker 2: boy running from her because she's completely drunk and emotional
Speaker 2: and got a knife in her hand, and him my
Speaker 2: other aunties, you know, grabbing hold of the little fella
Speaker 2: and comforting him while his mum's standing there stabbing herself
Speaker 2: in the leg. You know, experiences like that, experiences of
Speaker 2: as I've mentioned in the book, getting up in the
Speaker 2: middle of the night and rescuing my family members from
Speaker 2: you know, drunken violence that's unfolding in the town camp.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's so all the all those things of
Speaker 1: what's created the person you are now. I suppose, Yeah,
Speaker 1: when did you? And we're going to talk about your
Speaker 1: music career a little bit later. You're not getting getting
Speaker 1: out of here without that. We'll do that in part too,
Speaker 1: I think. But what inspired you? The politics? I know
Speaker 1: your mum was very much in the politics and was
Speaker 1: a spokesperson and an elder that would offer opinions not
Speaker 1: the ways of popular opinions. That's a sense I get.
Speaker 1: What inspired you to get into politics.
Speaker 2: Probably the fact that it appeared as though those empowered
Speaker 2: didn't have a clue as to what was going on
Speaker 2: in the ground in communities, and you know that lived
Speaker 2: experience was being sugarcoated or ignored in many ways. And
Speaker 2: I think, you know, watching this abaginal industry flourish, but
Speaker 2: without anything any anything significant, any change occurring on the ground.
Speaker 2: And also I guess knowing that there's some people who
Speaker 2: perpetrators who were being revered as elders, and think, king,
Speaker 2: why is that? Why do we do that? And we
Speaker 2: can't we can't do that? How does that? How does
Speaker 2: that impact us positively? How what is that? What message
Speaker 2: does that tell victims in our communities?
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you you bring up a point, and I
Speaker 1: think one thing and looking at it doesn't matter which culture,
Speaker 1: which you know, which community, children need to be protected.
Speaker 1: And I think that's a no brainer. And you know,
Speaker 1: culture shouldn't override the protection of children. That's a simple philosophy.
Speaker 1: I also picked up on one of your many documented
Speaker 1: talks and you've even said it here today, and I
Speaker 1: like that attitude that prevention is better than cure. So
Speaker 1: when we're talking about the crime in the streets and
Speaker 1: kids getting in the trouble, what's your ideas of preventing that?
Speaker 1: Like diversionary situations like the high incarceration rate. I can
Speaker 1: talk here generally, but I know Northern Territory it's on
Speaker 1: another level. For young Indigenous kids.
Speaker 2: Incarceration comes down to the failures of the child protection system.
Speaker 2: You know, it's and there are a number of different
Speaker 2: failures I believe in the child protection system, you know,
Speaker 2: just speaking in a committee just before actually about asking
Speaker 2: questions around the kinship principle and how that's been prioritized
Speaker 2: for kids and this notion that culture and being connected
Speaker 2: to country is what should be the priority, Whereas my
Speaker 2: idea of a priority is upholding the human rights of
Speaker 2: these kids to be able to live lives safely, you know,
Speaker 2: not exposed to domestic and family violence and sexual abuse
Speaker 2: and having their needs met. That should be the priority.
Speaker 2: But I feel as though the ideology and organizations child
Speaker 2: protection organizations is that it's more about culture maintaining culture
Speaker 2: than it is about human rights. But then at the
Speaker 2: same time, there are failings in the child protection system
Speaker 2: that regardless of all of that, kids are still not
Speaker 2: properly their circumstances aren't properly considered. All there's potentially cares
Speaker 2: in the system that are doing wrong by these kids
Speaker 2: when they're supposed to be in that system to be
Speaker 2: protected as well.
Speaker 1: Is there and he will throw within the silly white
Speaker 1: guy comments, but the stolen generation that the way it's portrayed,
Speaker 1: everyone carries shame with it and different things. One of
Speaker 1: the articles I read or one of the speeches that
Speaker 1: you've given you you talked about when you're talking about children,
Speaker 1: the kinship it should override the protection of the children
Speaker 1: should override it. Where children are taken from one family
Speaker 1: and placed into another, taken off of family that they've
Speaker 1: been placed into because they're not indigenous, and to keep
Speaker 1: that cultural connection. I can see in an ideal world
Speaker 1: that would work, but you gave examples where it doesn't work.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And that's the thing is to understand that
Speaker 2: whole family environment. You know, there are wonderful things about
Speaker 2: being part of huge Aboriginal families. The fact that there
Speaker 2: are so many that are prepared to take care of kids.
Speaker 2: In some circumstances, when it's grandparents, often they're overwhelmed and
Speaker 2: actually don't have the capacity to take on a lot
Speaker 2: of kids. And in some ways and in some circumstances,
Speaker 2: there are still connections with potential predators within families if
Speaker 2: kids remain in those circumstances. I'm also well aware of circumstances,
Speaker 2: particularly in the Northern Territory, where children have been put
Speaker 2: into foster care from when they're a baby, and then
Speaker 2: they're growing up in the suburbs of you know, places
Speaker 2: like other Springs, and they are they have special needs,
Speaker 2: they might be kids with fas D, and so all
Speaker 2: the health and mental health services available to them, a
Speaker 2: specialist services available to them are in that environment in
Speaker 2: the suburbs. And then, you know, they get to the
Speaker 2: age of five or so, and suddenly somebody who says
Speaker 2: that they are kin who this child might not even know,
Speaker 2: a complete stranger to them, living out in a remote
Speaker 2: community where there is no access to all those services
Speaker 2: that supports that child's upbringing, suddenly become the care of
Speaker 2: that kid, and that kid is taken out of that
Speaker 2: environment that they've only ever known and putting out into
Speaker 2: a remote community in circumstances where there are known perpetrators
Speaker 2: in those communities and pedophiles in those communities as well,
Speaker 2: So those kids are effectively put back in the path
Speaker 2: of danger. And I know of circumstances where that's been
Speaker 2: done and those children have been retraumatized, and those children
Speaker 2: have been you know, abused once more and then having
Speaker 2: to be taken back out and back with the original
Speaker 2: foster parents Like this is it's criminal to do that
Speaker 2: to that child in the first place. And my argument
Speaker 2: is that I don't care what the racial heritage is
Speaker 2: of the career for that child. If that child is
Speaker 2: being loved, cared for, protected and having all their needs met,
Speaker 2: then that that should override any other decisions. I know
Speaker 2: of circumstances where some kin will put their hand up
Speaker 2: because they know that there is a monetary element to
Speaker 2: it where there's they they then they then have access
Speaker 2: to payments for that child, but they're not necessarily putting
Speaker 2: the needs of that child first. And I mean, I
Speaker 2: know also of indigenous foster parents who are overwhelmed in
Speaker 2: their circumstances doing a remarkable job as well. So for me,
Speaker 2: you know, it's about ultimately the protection of that child
Speaker 2: is it should always be the first priority. And you know,
Speaker 2: when I talk about faster parents, some of those foster
Speaker 2: parents have worked in the police force in child abuse,
Speaker 2: you know, on the front line, so they know who
Speaker 2: perpetrators are and to be taken care of a child,
Speaker 2: for that child to be removed from their care, and
Speaker 2: they've done everything they can to fight the child protection
Speaker 2: system to say this is wrong, and yet it still occurs.
Speaker 2: That's where we have major problems.
Speaker 1: Okay. In discussions I have with Indigenous communities and just
Speaker 1: things I'm interested in, they talk about community leads solutions
Speaker 1: as distinct from government policy. The community want ownership in
Speaker 1: what's going to impact on them. I know that, and
Speaker 1: I might be misinterpreted in this, but sometimes you'll criticize
Speaker 1: for not believing in community lead solutions, but that's a
Speaker 1: misrepresentation with a.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I absolutely believe in community lead because
Speaker 2: I think it's it's well, it's coming from the community.
Speaker 2: The community know what's what's going on on the ground
Speaker 2: within their community, and empowering those organizations to do so
Speaker 2: is great. But as long as there are checks and balances,
Speaker 2: as long as they are demonstrating outcomes, as long as
Speaker 2: there isn't a level of accountability as well involved, as
Speaker 2: long as you know, because there's you know, there's a
Speaker 2: number of recent examples of community organized original organizations where
Speaker 2: their chairperson or a board member has a domestic violence history,
Speaker 2: and that there's excuses made for those individuals and their positions.
Speaker 2: So to me, that is that is there's the lowering
Speaker 2: of expectations in Indigenous affairs and within some of these organizations.
Speaker 2: But governance is primary. It is so important and if
Speaker 2: we don't get that right, how do we know that
Speaker 2: these organizations are delivering as they should? But I don't believe,
Speaker 2: you know, I think there should be freedom of choice
Speaker 2: for Indigenous Australians as well, because yes, we should invest
Speaker 2: in community driven or Aboriginal identified organizations and those sorts
Speaker 2: of things. But and that was another question that I
Speaker 2: put to the Productivity Commission today during the Senate hearing,
Speaker 2: was that is their data that draws a comparison between
Speaker 2: Aboriginal community lead and mainstream that'd be interesting And there
Speaker 2: is no data, right, there is no data. So while
Speaker 2: you know it is it is good to have community
Speaker 2: led and I just I don't believe in the concept
Speaker 2: that only Aboriginal people know how to to better support
Speaker 2: Aboriginal people. I think we're all humans, and I think
Speaker 2: as humans and part of a wider community. You know,
Speaker 2: take for example, addiction is a human condition, and that
Speaker 2: Western society has developed tools in order to help overcome addiction,
Speaker 2: and why wouldn't we draw on those tools given it
Speaker 2: it is a human condition to be able to help
Speaker 2: all people, including Indigenous Australians, overcome those things. So I
Speaker 2: just don't believe in the concept that only Aboriginal people
Speaker 2: know how to help Aboriginal people, because then we just
Speaker 2: have Asian people just helping Asian people, and white people
Speaker 2: are helping white people. But we're all people ultimately.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I hear what you're saying, but I know those
Speaker 1: type of comments other people would say, we don't need
Speaker 1: to be told what to do, we know what to do.
Speaker 1: Some good community led projects. I've seen Redfern not clean
Speaker 1: slate and tribal worry it that was I've had Shane
Speaker 1: Phillips on the podcast before. I'm amazed by the work
Speaker 1: that they did. And this was when we're talking. Redfern
Speaker 1: was a volatile place and there was a lot of
Speaker 1: crime and a heavy indigenous population, and clean slate without
Speaker 1: prejudice and tribal boxing had some great results. And to
Speaker 1: this day they're still running a great organization and doing
Speaker 1: good work. I see that from a cop or ex
Speaker 1: cops point of view.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And look like I know some wonderful organizations like
Speaker 2: the Glen you know on the Central Coast and like
Speaker 2: Black Rock in the Hunter doing amazing work to provide
Speaker 2: employment pathways for prisoners. Like they're absolutely like wonderful programs
Speaker 2: that are demonstrating that they're providing outcomes and should absolutely
Speaker 2: be supported. And there's plenty of examples of that right
Speaker 2: around the country.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean, I'm not yeah, I never suggest
Speaker 2: to discount one for the other, but we need a
Speaker 2: broad range of all of those.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, I'm just trying to try to understand because
Speaker 1: I hear the stuff that oh no, this is what
Speaker 1: she says and she means this, and so breaking it
Speaker 1: down the Northern Territory intervention that always gets people's opinions
Speaker 1: very very emotional about that. It was two thousand and
Speaker 1: seven where it first started. Do you want to explain
Speaker 1: what that meant to you? As an Aboriginal person when
Speaker 1: that came in, because it ran for it was only
Speaker 1: stopped in twenty twenty two or twenty fifteen. I think
Speaker 1: they had called it something else, but it ran till
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two.
Speaker 2: So there's still some policies in place as a result
Speaker 2: of that stronger futures. I think it was then sort
Speaker 2: of overhauled by labor afterwards, and policies under that came
Speaker 2: from that initially. And yeah, so when that occurred, it
Speaker 2: was like breaking the seal. It was like, you know,
Speaker 2: breaking the glass, the glass ceiling, if you like, because
Speaker 2: for so long we've known about so many cases of abuse,
Speaker 2: sexual abuse in remote communities and the little children are sacred.
Speaker 2: Report was smashing that wide open, which led to the
Speaker 2: intervention and it's and you know a lot of people
Speaker 2: demonize it and say that it disempowered Aboriginal people and
Speaker 2: a lot of the time, well a lot of Aboriginal
Speaker 2: people and communities are told that they are disempowered by
Speaker 2: it and power was taken away from them. What they
Speaker 2: don't realize is that the territory labor government at that
Speaker 2: time broke down Aboriginal community councils disempowered them and created
Speaker 2: councils super shires throughout the Northern Territory. And people get
Speaker 2: that mixed up with the intervention. That wasn't an initiative
Speaker 2: of the intervention, that was actually a Territory Labor Government
Speaker 2: initiative which in fact a current Minister for Indigenous Astraliansmulandarry
Speaker 2: McCarthy was part of, and our current member for Lingiari,
Speaker 2: Marion Scrimmagaw was part of as well. So a lot
Speaker 2: of people felt disempowered by that change to the power
Speaker 2: structure in the Northern Territory. It took jobs away from
Speaker 2: Indigenous people in those communities when they no longer had
Speaker 2: their own councils running their own councils. But the fact
Speaker 2: that going back to the Little Children, a sacred report
Speaker 2: that was out in the open, it was like ripping
Speaker 2: a band off, band aid off a horrible festering saw
Speaker 2: which needed to be exposed. And it empowered a lot
Speaker 2: of Aboriginal women in those communities to take more of
Speaker 2: a lead in that space as well. And you know,
Speaker 2: my mum was one of those women. There was all
Speaker 2: this converse, there was all this pushback from activists saying
Speaker 2: this is all just about a land grab and all
Speaker 2: these sorts of thing things. And I was actually on
Speaker 2: the I was actually in remote communities, working, engaging with
Speaker 2: sorry in town camps, engaging with town camps when during
Speaker 2: the Gillard government, when they were delivering upgrades to those
Speaker 2: town camps, and what the aim was to try and
Speaker 2: bring those town camps to a standard with our suburbs
Speaker 2: around Alice Springs instead, which was about civil works, you know,
Speaker 2: basic things like that. So these are all the sorts
Speaker 2: of things that came along at the same time, and
Speaker 2: no one realizes that there were all these other elements
Speaker 2: that came to it. But as a family, we were like,
Speaker 2: thank god, someone is prepared to actually take seriously what's
Speaker 2: going on in remote communities when it comes to the
Speaker 2: fact that our kids are experiencing these horrible rates of
Speaker 2: sexual abuse and that our women are experiencing these horrible
Speaker 2: rates of DV. And an interesting thing is a year
Speaker 2: or so ago I had a conversation with mel Braff.
Speaker 2: He rang me to tell me that he said one
Speaker 2: of the significant pushes behind initiating that intervention was that
Speaker 2: he received a letter from a young Aboriginal woman living
Speaker 2: in a town camp who wrote to him to say,
Speaker 2: you know, each night I go to bed and I
Speaker 2: don't know if i'll wake up the next day, whether
Speaker 2: this is the night that I'll be murdered, and I've
Speaker 2: got a baby, and basically outlined the conditions that she'd
Speaker 2: been living in. And he described this young woman to me,
Speaker 2: and from her circumstances, I thought to myself, Wow, I
Speaker 2: feel like that's my cousin, you know. And I said
Speaker 2: to him do you remember her name? And he said,
Speaker 2: I'd have to go looking for it. I can't remember
Speaker 2: off the top of my head. But I said, look,
Speaker 2: I'm going to go and have a conversation my cousin.
Speaker 2: And I did. I rang my cousin. I said, hey, listen,
Speaker 2: you didn't happen to write a letter to mel Broff
Speaker 2: and she said, yeah, I did. I'm like, wow, okay,
Speaker 2: And her circumstances have changed significantly, and she is very
Speaker 2: sought after interpreter and she does other wonderful work in
Speaker 2: the indigenous space. And she got out of that situation
Speaker 2: and her daughter is achieving remarkable things in her life now.
Speaker 2: And her daughter is eighteen, and the kids that come
Speaker 2: along are as well. So she escaped that, but I
Speaker 2: just thought, you know, I was so surprised that that
Speaker 2: was what, you know, part of that led to that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, looking back at it, can you explain because I
Speaker 1: know with the people in circles I mixed Indigenous communities,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people that were outraged by what
Speaker 1: happened there. Do you understand where they're coming from? Can
Speaker 1: you see their perspective on where they felt that? Why
Speaker 1: are we being treated this way? There was rampant sexual
Speaker 1: abuse in the Catholic Church? Why I didn't Why wasn't
Speaker 1: there any intervention there? Comments like that that come out?
Speaker 1: Do you understand where?
Speaker 2: Well, I guess there has been an intervention, you know,
Speaker 2: and recognition from the Catholic Church and a response to that,
Speaker 2: and there's been a redress scheme for those victims. So
Speaker 2: I mean, that's sort of the thing that I'm calling
Speaker 2: for right when it comes to our kids. And look,
Speaker 2: a lot of the outrage was fueled by the activist class.
Speaker 2: There were a lot of miss truths being told about
Speaker 2: what was going on. You know, people in community, vulnerable
Speaker 2: individuals who without a proper education, can't disseminate what's real
Speaker 2: information and what isn't And so you know, there weren't
Speaker 2: there wasn't a a an army tank going through a
Speaker 2: community community.
Speaker 1: The army suggesting the medium miss leads.
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, but that's the thing, right, People going, oh,
Speaker 2: they're going to take away our babies and they're going
Speaker 2: to do this, and they're whipped into a frenzy by
Speaker 2: those who should have known better as well, Like the
Speaker 2: army were there to help with health checks. They were
Speaker 2: supporting the community, much like what would happen if there
Speaker 2: was some kind of natural disaster when the army goes in,
Speaker 2: you know, just setting up tents and doing health checks
Speaker 2: and those sorts of things. And why would you want
Speaker 2: to not allow for that to occur or to go ahead?
Speaker 2: And it wasn't designed to try and say that all
Speaker 2: Aboriginal men are pedophiles. Again, it's prioritizing. It's going, oh,
Speaker 2: how are we going to be perceived as opposed to
Speaker 2: let's protect protect our vulnerable, let's protect our children. That's
Speaker 2: that's what I can't get around. Why there is such
Speaker 2: a such a need to you know, take offense and
Speaker 2: be defensive as opposed to go this is actually about
Speaker 2: our victims and our vulnerable, not about anything else.
Speaker 1: Okay, focusing on preventing children becoming victims. Yeah, absolutely, point
Speaker 1: in time, so it's from two thousand and seven, let's
Speaker 1: say through the twenty twenty two. Do you think the
Speaker 1: current Northern territories in a better situation because of the intervention?
Speaker 1: Because there's issues going on there? Now? Do you think
Speaker 1: it was a good thing or a bad thing with
Speaker 1: the benefit of hindsight looking back at the history.
Speaker 2: Look, I think it has I'm not saying it was perfect.
Speaker 2: It has its upsides and its downside to it. And
Speaker 2: the situation is that, yes, Aboriginal people feel disempowered in communities,
Speaker 2: but there are other factors involved in that as well,
Speaker 2: and they're the sorts of things that I hope to address.
Speaker 2: You know, if I've successfully become a Minister for Indigenous Australians.
Speaker 2: It comes around empowerment through participating a actively in the
Speaker 2: economy which allows for people to stand on their own
Speaker 2: two feet, and welfare dependency is a huge factor in
Speaker 2: why things aren't progressing out in communities. Wealth generation or
Speaker 2: inability to create wealth generation in communities is a huge factor. Again,
Speaker 2: just going back to this committee that I've just been
Speaker 2: sitting on and the Productivity Commission have outlined that land
Speaker 2: rights and land and sea rights hasn't equated to better
Speaker 2: outcomes as yet. But the environment, the Land Rights Act
Speaker 2: that we are governed under in the Northern Territory doesn't
Speaker 2: necessarily allow for traditional owners to utilize their land for
Speaker 2: the benefit of economic development. There's no home ownership opportunities,
Speaker 2: there's no private land ownership opportunities, and we know that
Speaker 2: that is what helps people to create wealth, to stand
Speaker 2: on their own two feet, to live comfortably, to ensure
Speaker 2: that their kids go to school, to create jobs.
Speaker 1: And I want.
Speaker 2: To work toward creating that environment where traditional owners become
Speaker 2: job creators, not just have a job, but become job
Speaker 2: creators so that they can participate in the economy like
Speaker 2: everybody else in this country has the opportunity to. And
Speaker 2: that's what we haven't got to yet. And when you've
Speaker 2: got mums and dads working, kids are more likely to
Speaker 2: go to school, kids are going to get an education.
Speaker 2: But our curriculum needs to be such that it is
Speaker 2: allowing for kids in communities to be able to leave
Speaker 2: school and actually have the appropriate level of education to
Speaker 2: either go on to further to go into employment or
Speaker 2: go on to further education.
Speaker 1: It's a vicious cycle. If a family has been living
Speaker 1: in welfare and it doesn't need to be an Indigenous family.
Speaker 1: I've seen families where three generations of white fellows and
Speaker 1: they have and have the job. That doesn't create a
Speaker 1: good role model or an understanding of what life is about.
Speaker 2: And can I just stay on that as well. And
Speaker 2: like in my previous research findings is that the further
Speaker 2: you move away from a city, the more marginalized Australians become,
Speaker 2: both Indigenous and non Indigenous because there is less of
Speaker 2: an access to services. There is less availability of jobs
Speaker 2: and those sorts of things to be able to provide
Speaker 2: that and that goes for everybody.
Speaker 1: There's a region. Yeah, there's problems within the city, like
Speaker 1: living with living within the city as well, But I
Speaker 1: agree the services across the board, the more remote, the
Speaker 1: more difficult it is to match those services. We'll finish
Speaker 1: off on part one. It's hard to find a question.
Speaker 1: I can ask you that it's not controversial. I'm looking
Speaker 1: for them. But yeah, in the introduction I said that
Speaker 1: you've got strong opinions and you're prepared to pair the
Speaker 1: back I'll ask one question here, just a general question
Speaker 1: that I'm just curious. If you were to speak to
Speaker 1: someone from overseas and they asked how Indigenous people are
Speaker 1: treated in this country, what would you say, Well.
Speaker 2: I'd say Indigenous people have incredible opportunity in this country.
Speaker 2: There are many people in this country who want what's
Speaker 2: best for Indigenous Australians. No country, there's no country on
Speaker 2: the face of the earth that doesn't have its handful
Speaker 2: of you know, those who have racist attitudes across the board.
Speaker 2: But yeah, otherwise, I believe that in general terms, most
Speaker 2: Australians want what's best for Indigenous Australians. And as I said,
Speaker 2: and governments have been bending over backwards to ensure that
Speaker 2: there is plenty of opportunity that is being provided for
Speaker 2: Indigenous Australians. That's what i'd say.
Speaker 1: Okay, we'll leave, we'll leave it that, let's take a
Speaker 1: break and we'll be back in part two and I'm
Speaker 1: sure I'll have some more interesting questions for it. Thank you,
Speaker 1: Jeers M.