1 00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average person is never 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,119 Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 4 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a 6 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 7 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 8 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 10 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 11 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 12 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 13 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world today, 14 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: I spake, We've just senter Price. I think it's fair 15 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: to say Just Center is a controversial character, an Aboriginal 16 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: lady who is a senator in Federal Parliament and has 17 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: been the Shadow Minister for Indigenous Affairs. It's twenty twenty three. 18 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: Her views on Aboriginal issues often caused division, but as 19 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: you'll find out today, she's prepared to stand by her comments. 20 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: We spoke about a life and her views on a 21 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: wide range of Indigenous issues. Let's see what you think 22 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: about Senator just Center Price Ciner. I've followed your career 23 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 1: for a long time. You're not hard to hard to miss. 24 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I think I'm all over the place. 25 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 2: I can't even escape myself. 26 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: And look, I think the type of topics you're talking about, mayors, 27 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: you're talking about, it's polarizing and they're difficult. Conversations that 28 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: you have in the position that you take on certain 29 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: issues are always always hard. I'm going to ask a 30 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: personal question first up? What toll has it taken on you? 31 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: People would recognize you as the voice of the referendum 32 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: of supporting the no vote and different sences that you've taken. 33 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 1: What toll has it taken on you personally? 34 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 2: Well, there's a sense of not feeling like my life 35 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 2: is my own. I guess I know that my kids 36 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 2: and my husband probably feel that I'm no longer you know, 37 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 2: this sort of care free, more relaxed person than what 38 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 2: I used to be. And in many ways sometimes they 39 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 2: can see me as distant because my head is so 40 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 2: full of what's going on. You know what, I'm what 41 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 2: the latest challenge is, the latest thing I'm trying to 42 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:49,839 Speaker 2: find an answer for, and those sorts of things. And yeah, 43 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 2: there's there's that sort of sense of yeah, not feeling 44 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:54,959 Speaker 2: like my life is my own anymore. 45 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 1: I understand that. Do you have the ability to switch 46 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 1: off when you when you can step boy, when you're 47 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: with family and friends? 48 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 2: I do. I do, And sometimes, like again, my family 49 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 2: will say, you know your armor's up, you need to 50 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 2: take your armor off. Go home and take your armor off. 51 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 2: And it can be hard to get into that right away. 52 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 2: And but yeah, look, I love being able to chill 53 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 2: out at home, be mum, you know, copper roasting from 54 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 2: my kids and my husband, be brought back down to 55 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 2: earth again. And yeah, it's my favorite favorite thing to do, 56 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 2: even just being at home doing the dishes, like feeling 57 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 2: like a normal person. 58 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: It's good to dumb things down a little bit sometimes, 59 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: isn't it. 60 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 2: Ye? 61 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: Your pressure pressure pressure, Okay, this is my escape. I 62 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: can be who I want to be there, just on that. 63 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: There's so much to talk about. Congratulations on your book too, 64 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: it's a it's an interesting read. You've certainly lived a life. 65 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, it's been. It's been an credible journey 66 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 2: and a very daunting at times process and especially on 67 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 2: the cusp of its release, knowing just how much of 68 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 2: my life I guess I'd put out there for the 69 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 2: public to learn about and how thinking of how that 70 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 2: might be received as well as but you know, cathartic 71 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 2: at times, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to have 72 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 2: been able to do it well. 73 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: Your public profile is very much linked to your Indigenous background, 74 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: and quite often you're the person called in to make comments. 75 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: Do you when you speak as an Aboriginal lady, do 76 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: you feel that you're speaking for all Aboriginal people from 77 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: your life experience. 78 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, No, definitely from my life experience. And that's a thing, right. 79 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 2: I Mean, it's a funny situation because when we look 80 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 2: at other people like we don't we don't see a 81 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 2: white fellow speaking and go, oh, they're speaking on behalf 82 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 2: of all white fellows, you know. But but for Indigenous 83 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 2: Australians it's a funny sort of position because on one hand, 84 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 2: you're going, you know, you've got your detractors, so you 85 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 2: don't speak on behalf of me. I was like, well, actually, 86 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 2: never claim to speak on behalf of you. But then 87 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 2: you're told that you know, if you're not saying what 88 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 2: they what your detractors want to hear, then you're a 89 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 2: sellout or you're a traitor. Well, so what is it 90 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 2: you know? Am I speaking? Am I supposed to be 91 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 2: speaking on behalf of you? Or not? But ultimately what 92 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 2: I my lived experience and coming from being able to 93 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 2: be the voice for those that want me to be 94 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 2: their voice, those those that don't get the opportunity to 95 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:53,040 Speaker 2: be heard and really vulnerable marginalized people that need need 96 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 2: their truth to be heard. That's that's really you know 97 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 2: who I'm about speaking on behalf of and for in 98 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 2: order to make a positive difference in their lives and 99 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 2: to save lives. Really, that's really what it's about. And 100 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 2: let's face it, the truth is bloody confronting, but it's 101 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 2: necessary to put out there to overcome our great challenges. 102 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: Well, we're going to break it down the challenges and 103 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: the positions you take on a lot of issues. But 104 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 1: I can see the conundrum you've got there that you 105 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: don't speak for all of us. But if you speak, 106 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: why you're speaking on behalf And I'll chime in as 107 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: the white fellow at the table here too. There is 108 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: a perception. There is a perception that oh, you're Aboriginal, 109 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 1: therefore you're speaking for other Aboriginals, and like, is it 110 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong? But two hundred and fifty 111 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:49,720 Speaker 1: different nations across the continent. 112 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:52,839 Speaker 2: Well yeah, look, I mean in terms of language groups 113 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 2: that once upon a time there were of a five 114 00:06:56,240 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 2: hundred languages spoken across the continent. And you know there's 115 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 2: like a handful still around now as first languages. But yeah, 116 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:13,119 Speaker 2: so we're talking different, you know, culturally linguistically diverse people 117 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 2: right across this continent. 118 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, at one stage, okay, well, look diving into and 119 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: we've got so much to talk about. Your life, your upbringing, 120 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: you stepping into parliament, your life is a politician, your 121 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: thoughts on that world, which is probably more confronting than 122 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: the indigenous world in different ways, or more divisive. But 123 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: I think a good way to launch into it your 124 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: maiden speech at Parliament and it was two thy and 125 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: twenty two. I've just pulled an extract out from the 126 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: maiden speech. I'll read it through and then we'll break 127 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,559 Speaker 1: down some things there. If that's okay. My vision, my hope, 128 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: my goal is that we can affect change it we'll 129 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: see women, children and other victims in these communities become 130 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 1: as safe as any of those living in Sydney, Melbourne 131 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: or any other Australian city. My goal is to halt 132 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: the pointless virtue signaling and focus on solutions that bring 133 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: real change that changes the lives of Australia's most vulnerable citizens, 134 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,239 Speaker 1: Solutions that give them real lives, not the enduring nightmare 135 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: of violence and terror that they currently live. It is 136 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: not good enough that the streets of our Northern Territory 137 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: towns and other towns across regional Australia have gangs of 138 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: children age from six to sixteen wandering and around with 139 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: no adult supervision in the early hours of the morning. 140 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 1: It's not good enough that almost all of these children 141 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: have witnessed or been subject to normalized alcohol abuse, domestic 142 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: family and sexual violence throughout their young lives, and is 143 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 1: the reason for their presence on our streets. Such neglecting 144 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: great numbers would not be accepted in prosperous suburbs of 145 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: any of our capital cities. Extract from your speech, you 146 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: can't really argue with the sentiment there. 147 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:03,599 Speaker 2: Yeah right, I mean it's true why we're Australia is 148 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 2: an incredibly tolerant nation, but we can be tolerant to 149 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 2: a fault, to the point that you know that we 150 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 2: did do have children as young as six and six 151 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 2: to sixteen on our streets late at night, at the 152 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 2: early hours of the morning, that you know, those circumstances 153 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 2: continue in twenty twenty five. And when we contrast that 154 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 2: and see a lot of you know, a lot of 155 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 2: a lot of people living in our in our in 156 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 2: our cities. When they do visit places like Alice Springs 157 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 2: or you know, remote communities, there is a stark contrast 158 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 2: in lives, in the way lives are lived, and in 159 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 2: many ways it's a real culture shock as well. But 160 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,439 Speaker 2: this is just reality for us in places like our 161 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 2: springs and remote communities, and that's what needs to be 162 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 2: better understood and we shouldn't excuse it. We should never 163 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 2: excuse use it, or you know, especially especially when we 164 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:10,199 Speaker 2: want to. I mean, I seek to hold accountable perpetrators 165 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 2: within my own family, within my own community, but for 166 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 2: some reason that's frowned upon to do so because our 167 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 2: perpetrators are also framed as victims of colonization. But that 168 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:29,959 Speaker 2: doesn't help the situation. So yeah, again it's about confronting 169 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 2: reality and demonstrating to the rest of the country, this 170 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 2: is the reality of what goes on in these places 171 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 2: where we experience the highest rates of marginalization in the country. 172 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: Right, understanding that generational trauma. Where As yeah, it could 173 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 1: be said as an excuse, but your your position, if 174 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: I understand, is you want to break the cycle. It's 175 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: got to stop somewhere totally. 176 00:10:54,320 --> 00:11:00,719 Speaker 2: Look, you know, trauma is as a human experience and 177 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 2: it doesn't discriminate like human beings around the globe have 178 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 2: experienced trauma and intergenerational trauma if you like. So why 179 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 2: is it that it I guess we allow it in 180 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 2: some ways in the indigenous community to prevent us from 181 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 2: progressing as individuals in our own right. You know, yes, 182 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 2: we have to acknowledge it and realize that it's there 183 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 2: and it exists. But we also have to acknowledge that 184 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:34,319 Speaker 2: we as human beings and individuals, without considering our racial 185 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 2: heritage or anything like that, are capable of wonderful, great things, 186 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 2: and there is We're empowered when we take responsibility not 187 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:49,479 Speaker 2: just for our own circumstances, but when we take responsibility 188 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 2: for how we are within our own families and communities 189 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:56,679 Speaker 2: at the same time. That is what that's where empowerment 190 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 2: comes from, as personal responsibility. A lot of the time, 191 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 2: the argument, the political argument, is that we don't have 192 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 2: to because it's colonization's fault and those that have stood 193 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 2: to gain from colonization are somehow also responsible. But we've 194 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 2: all gained something from colonization. As much as it has 195 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 2: played a part in the detriment of Indigenous Australians, they're 196 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:25,559 Speaker 2: also there are also aspects that we have been able 197 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 2: to progress forward from at the same time. 198 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 1: Okay, in that, just from that quote, the lives of 199 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: Australia's most vulnerable citizens, you're referring in that in context, 200 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: in full context, you're referring to Indigenous people. 201 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 2: But yes, talking best and I guess in that talking 202 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 2: about marginalized Indigenous Australians too, because you know, as I've 203 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 2: always said, we're not just marginalized because of our racial heritage. 204 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 2: There are some Indigenous Australians doing, living very successful lives 205 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 2: and a growing middle class. But I'm talking specifically about 206 00:12:57,760 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 2: marginalized Indigenous Australians. 207 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:03,079 Speaker 1: Okay, why can you offer them? It's a real broad question, 208 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: and I'll warn you I'm probably going to ask some 209 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 1: dumb questions. But it's such absolutely, it's such a complex 210 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: issue and looking at it from the outside, and I've 211 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: been involved in Indigenous matters, but I'm a white guy 212 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: and I never speak with great knowledge. I speak with 213 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: experiences what I've seen. But so if I ask some 214 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: dumb questions, just cut me some latitude on this. But 215 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: we'll try and we'll try and get people across to understand. 216 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 2: It's all about understanding. 217 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: Talking about So why do you think the Indigenous community 218 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,079 Speaker 1: looked at there's our vulnerable citizens in the country. 219 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, in terms of our most marginalized, we 220 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 2: experienced the highest rates of domestic and family violence, of 221 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 2: sexual abuse, of neglect, of all those things, the lowest 222 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 2: rates of you know, education, and lowest rates of employment. 223 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:02,319 Speaker 2: That's that's the most marginalized in this country are predominantly 224 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 2: Indigenous Australians. And in my previous work as part of 225 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 2: the Center for Independent Studies heading up the Indigenous Research Program, 226 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 2: what we uncovered was that our most marginalized exist in 227 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 2: regional and remote parts of this country, but particularly so 228 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 2: more acutely within places like the Northern Territory, Western Australia 229 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 2: and North Queensland, Far North Queensland. And so for me, 230 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 2: it's really important to identify who they are, which things 231 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 2: like Closing the Gap Report and all these initiatives don't 232 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 2: necessarily prioritize the needs of our most marginalized, but take 233 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 2: a blanket approach toward Indigenous Australians to suggest that we're 234 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 2: all marginalized and just because we're indigenous, right, And as 235 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 2: I say, we've got to be far more focused and 236 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 2: far more honest about how we approach that. 237 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: And that type of position I would imagine within the 238 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: Indigenous community across the board that might bring some conflict 239 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: to or some pushback. 240 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 2: It does in that an industry has developed out of 241 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 2: you know, indigenous direction in Indigenous policy, there is you know, 242 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 2: my focus is on well, you know, the figure of 243 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 2: thirty three billion dollars being spent on Indigenous affairs was 244 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 2: determined I think back in twenty seventeen, and we don't 245 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 2: have a current figure on how much that spend is 246 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 2: right now, but as I said, it's usually spent on 247 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 2: measures to support and advance Indigenous Australians without without saying okay, 248 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 2: but who are we actually looking at here? And so 249 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 2: an industry has developed out of that. I mean, there 250 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 2: are many livelihoods that have been created in that space. 251 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 2: There are many organizations that are tasked with improving the 252 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 2: lives of marginalized Indigenous Australians that, in my view, many 253 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 2: of which are failing. But if I point these things out, 254 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 2: I'm going to be targeted, you know, if I if 255 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 2: I want to take a more honest approach to this matter, 256 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 2: I will be targeted because there are those who are 257 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 2: going to feel threatened by the fact that I'm pointing, Well, 258 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 2: it's not just governments that are failing, it's those that 259 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 2: are funded by governments that are failing. And there is 260 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 2: very little accountability in this space. So calling for these 261 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 2: things will naturally ensure that I that I have enemies. 262 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: And in calling that they just clarify it where the 263 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: money is not going where it supposedly should go to. 264 00:16:55,720 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: Or people who have said creating an industry and I'm 265 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 1: guessing here, but it wouldn't just be Aboriginal people are 266 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: making a profit from it or creating an industry. So 267 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: when you want it scrutinize, you want it scrutinized across 268 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,159 Speaker 1: the board, not just the money that's gone to the Blackfellows. 269 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: Want whoever's got control of this money and how it's 270 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:16,879 Speaker 1: been used. 271 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, whoever's receiving funds that are supposed to go to 272 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 2: improving the lives of Indigenous Australians. 273 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: Okay, you touched on health, education, crime. What sort of 274 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: figures are we looking at? And again, it's hard to 275 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 1: generalize because we're going back into exactly what you've pointed 276 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 1: out where we make mistakes. But it is known that 277 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:43,159 Speaker 1: the high incarceration rate as an ex scop, I know 278 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: the challenges that corrective services, the high incarceration of Indigenous people. 279 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: Health is a problem, education, employment, the welfare system will 280 00:17:55,640 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 1: relying on welfare. What if you're people that haven't really 281 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 1: bored into it, tell them what we're talking about on 282 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:03,679 Speaker 1: the scale. 283 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Look, an incarceration is a huge issue, but 284 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 2: sometimes I feel like we try to deal with the 285 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:17,120 Speaker 2: symptoms and not the causes of the matter. And there's 286 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 2: I mean, I can recommend a really good book by 287 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 2: Don Born Weatherburn called Arresting Incarceration Pathways out of Indigenous Imprisonment, 288 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 2: who headed up the Bureau of criminology here in New 289 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 2: South Wales for. 290 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: So of him and yeah, yeah, yeah, And. 291 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 2: Basically he identifies that I think it's between sixty five 292 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 2: and seventy percent of incarcerated Indigenous men are incarcerated for 293 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 2: acts of violence. And I mean, it's it's a horrible truth. 294 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 2: But these are cycles, obviously generational cycles. And my argument 295 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 2: is that we need to this particular issue because if 296 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 2: we address the violence issue, we'll see a dramatic decrease 297 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 2: in rates of incarceration amongst Indigenous men, but also Indigenous women. 298 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 2: This is increasing in terms of incarceration rates. The reason 299 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 2: why Indigenous women are being incarcerated, and and one of 300 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 2: an argument that I've always put forward, which I still 301 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:28,920 Speaker 2: you know to this day, well I'll always get pushed 302 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 2: back on, is the fact that I know from lived 303 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 2: experience that in places like where we have the highest 304 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 2: rates of DV in the Northern Territory is that in 305 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 2: traditional culture violence is accepted, but all small scale societies 306 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 2: on the face of the earth used violence as a 307 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 2: means of social control. And for us in Central Australia, 308 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 2: the frontier was not that long ago. My grandparents first 309 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 2: saw white fellows in their early adolescence. So traditional culture 310 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 2: that accepted violence as a means of social control is 311 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 2: partly the reason why we have such high rates of violence, 312 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 2: because men, women and children will act out violently because 313 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 2: it's accepted in traditional culture. But also there are elements 314 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 2: of traditional culture that suggests that women are not as 315 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 2: important as men. You know, it's patriarchal society, and if 316 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 2: if we don't acknowledge this, we're not going to overcome 317 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:33,479 Speaker 2: the DV crisis that we're confronted with. And again in 318 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 2: the book, it's lived experience my mother becoming a mother, 319 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,160 Speaker 2: at being pregnant at thirteen, at a mother at fourteen, 320 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 2: and under those circumstances. It's questionable as to how that 321 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 2: came about. You know, she won't provide so much detail, 322 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 2: but I don't believe that my mother was willingly. You know, 323 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 2: she was forced into a relationship with the father of 324 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 2: my brother, because in traditional terms, if you have a 325 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 2: childhood to an abaginal man, you have to then be 326 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 2: married to that man in traditional terms. So there's those 327 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 2: elements of traditional culture that play out significantly in the 328 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 2: lives of women in places like the Northern Territory and 329 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 2: more broadly, they don't have opportunity to speak or have 330 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 2: a platform, a media platform, or are often if so, 331 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 2: are too scared to talk about the reality of what 332 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 2: goes on in communities. And then in the broader context 333 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 2: and indigenous affairs, the narrative is that we simply blame 334 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:43,479 Speaker 2: colonization for what's going on. And also, as I've been told, 335 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 2: you know, I shouldn't speak ill of our own people 336 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 2: because that is supposed to then encourage racists toward us. 337 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 2: We'll hang on a second. If we take it all back, 338 00:21:57,920 --> 00:21:59,880 Speaker 2: what we want to do is stop people from losing 339 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 2: their lives. Racism is the problem of the racist. It's 340 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 2: their mental health issue to deal with. We shouldn't make 341 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 2: it ours right. But what we should do is ensure 342 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 2: that our most vulnerable, our women and children, are kept safe. 343 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 2: And that is my argument. So if it means that 344 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 2: we have to highlight the reality of the circumstances, if 345 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 2: it means that we have to highlight in traditional culture 346 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 2: we do accept violence as a means of social control, 347 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:31,120 Speaker 2: but that we shouldn't and have those hard conversations, then 348 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 2: that's what I'm doing, and that's what I'm prepared to do, 349 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 2: And we should all be prepared to do that. 350 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,120 Speaker 1: And saying that, when you explain it that way, it 351 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 1: sounds quite reasonable. But the pushback is, well, you disrespecting 352 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: our culture or this is our business, this is the 353 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:47,959 Speaker 1: way we deal things. I think in your book your 354 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: auntie that disappeared and suspected murder a long time ago, 355 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: and that was a horrendous situation, but it felt, and 356 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 1: I put my hat on as a homicide detective, that 357 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: no one wanted to to talk about it. There would 358 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: have been people that could have offered something and chose 359 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 1: not to come forth because of the shame of coming forward. 360 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 2: Well absolutely, not just the shame, but probably the circumstances 361 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 2: around it. That my aunt's promised husband had already murdered 362 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 2: and done time after murdering his first wife, but that 363 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 2: under again under customary law, she didn't want to go 364 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 2: to that relationship and be forced into it, and she 365 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 2: was being forced into it. But under customery law, he 366 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 2: had every right to punish her for, you know, not 367 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 2: not doing as was her obligation to do, was to 368 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 2: go and be his wife. And so those involved in 369 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 2: that circumstance that were forcing her into that, we're also 370 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 2: doing it on the belief that it was appropriate culturally 371 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 2: appropriate to do so. And you know, the saddest part 372 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 2: about that whole thing is that her father, who was 373 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:14,439 Speaker 2: a very prominent man, my mother's uncle and you know, 374 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,159 Speaker 2: held up as a revered elder and a land rights 375 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 2: activist and all those things, evidently knew what went on, 376 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:26,719 Speaker 2: but took that secret to his grave and in that 377 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 2: also told a story that she had run away, that 378 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 2: she has had eight sons living in Queensland, has eight sons. 379 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:43,400 Speaker 2: He he he ensured that that story you know, made 380 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 2: the rounds was was, which is part of a cover 381 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 2: up as far as i'm co Yeah, that's right, because 382 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 2: why would you why would you do that if you 383 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,360 Speaker 2: in fact you know your daughter is not really alive. 384 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a it's a sad case. And I know 385 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: you've still hoped to get get answers. So yeah, good luck, 386 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: good luck with that. I'm doing what you've probably gets 387 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:08,640 Speaker 1: you in the trouble a lot of the times because 388 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:13,120 Speaker 1: we're focusing on negative aspects of the culture. But let's say, 389 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: and quite often I hear you talk about, okay, things 390 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 1: like you've just explained, there there's a lot of positives 391 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 1: about the culture, and there's some really I can only 392 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: speak from my experience. I've met some really impressive male elders. Absolutely, 393 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: some what I would consider good role models. 394 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. And in my book, you know, I talk 395 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,919 Speaker 2: a lot about my grandfather and my grandfather's story, and 396 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 2: I think my grandfather was revolutionary forward thinker for a 397 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 2: man of his time, who embraced change instead of fighting it, 398 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,159 Speaker 2: if you like, because you know, he knew that life 399 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 2: was tough. You know, before white fellows came along, it 400 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 2: was killed or be killed in terms of the when 401 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 2: you would come across your traditional enemies. You had to 402 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:03,120 Speaker 2: live off the land in a very harsh desert environment. 403 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 2: And when this change came, he knew had to be 404 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 2: he had to be part of it because it meant 405 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 2: not just surviving, but thriving. And my grandfather also, I 406 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 2: guess I'd get it from him where he pushed back 407 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 2: on tradition in that when he and my grandmother got together, 408 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 2: my grandmother was already part of a polygamous marriage, was 409 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 2: like a third wife, and my grandfather and grandmother wanted 410 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 2: to be together, and so my grandfather defied tradition. He 411 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,439 Speaker 2: copped it a couple of times and got a beating 412 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 2: from the traditional promised husband, but in the end he 413 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 2: was able to then take my grandmother as his wife. 414 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 2: And when he saw that that my mother wanted to 415 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 2: make her own choices and fought to have an education, 416 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 2: he backed her up in that. You know, he could 417 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,919 Speaker 2: have very easily said to my mother, look, you, while 418 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,920 Speaker 2: you've escaped your first marriage, and I wouldn't call it 419 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 2: a marriage, you are actually supposed to be traditionally becoming 420 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 2: a second wife in the marriage that your older sisters 421 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 2: involved in. You need to go to that now if 422 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 2: you're not going to be with this horrible, violent individual. 423 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 2: But both my mum's traditional promised husband and my grandfather 424 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 2: put my mum's wishes before traditional culture. To me, they're 425 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 2: the kind of men that are you know, they're all throughout, 426 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 2: and they're wonderful men who care and love for their families. 427 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 2: And you know, that's why I guess I've always celebrated 428 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,679 Speaker 2: my grandfather for that, for the man that he was 429 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 2: and the love that he gave and the things that 430 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 2: he believed in. And there are absolutely a lot of 431 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 2: men like that. I know, there are men that think 432 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 2: much like I do. But for fear of retribution, you know, 433 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 2: they keep that to themselves as well, because men can 434 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 2: also be targeted violently. Men are also victims of violence 435 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 2: as well good men. So you know, when people try 436 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,360 Speaker 2: to argue that I paint all of our men as horrible, 437 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 2: when all I'm doing is looking at the facts, When 438 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 2: all I'm saying is Okay, our kids are experiencing experiencing 439 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 2: the highest rates of sexual abuse. To say that doesn't 440 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,400 Speaker 2: mean to say that all our men are pedophiles. That's 441 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 2: not what I'm saying. And in terms of wonderful aspects 442 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 2: about culture, you know, I often share those as well, 443 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 2: like the fact that you know, I was brought up 444 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 2: by my elders to believe that if you are conceived 445 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 2: on this country, because what we believe is that you're 446 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 2: when you're conceived, your baby spirit has leapt from the 447 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 2: ground into your mother's belly, giving you your personal dreaming, 448 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 2: your connection to that country by the creator ancestor that 449 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 2: created that country. You now are connected to that creative ancestor, 450 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 2: that's your personal dreaming. So that anyone who's conceived on 451 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 2: this country is also connected to this country spiritually in 452 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 2: that way, regardless of racial heritage. You know, that's the 453 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 2: part of my culture that I love and I celebrate, 454 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 2: which is about being completely inclusive and recognizing others as 455 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 2: human beings, not as people divided by race. And that 456 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 2: to me is what true reconciliation looks like. 457 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: Okay, we've got right into the hard stuff without even 458 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: finding out a little bit about yourself. So tell us 459 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: where you were born and what you were just relaying there. 460 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: I was reading that in your book and I found 461 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: it fascinating and very educational, so it was interesting. 462 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 2: So my parents were living on Melville Island when I 463 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 2: was born, So I was born in Darwin and a 464 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 2: week after my birth flew back to the islands and 465 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 2: spent spent some few more months there. Mom and dad 466 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 2: were there for a few more months before they decided 467 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 2: to move to the Kimberly. But given that my conception 468 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 2: site comes from Teewee Country and the Mangotolby family pretty 469 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 2: much adopted us as family. And I share, you know, 470 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 2: the dreaming spirit with the Utika Bay Tikabanger, which is 471 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 2: crocodile dreaming clan up on the Tiwi Islands. And so 472 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 2: you know, if if I go back there and during ceremony, 473 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 2: participate and dance with the crocodile clan. That's my connection 474 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 2: to the Tewee Islands, my personal dreamings, my inherited dreamings 475 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 2: coming from my Wabury side of the family ung Napa 476 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 2: which is rain and warliw fire. And so my responsibility 477 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 2: is in Wadbury Country around those choko By stories, so 478 00:30:54,600 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 2: around Nappa and fire random fire. But yeah, so Mum 479 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 2: and Dad moved to took another teaching job in the 480 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 2: Kimberly and Nunkenbar in community of Nunkolnbar. So I was 481 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 2: just a toddler when they took that job. And yeah, 482 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 2: we lived in like a little in a caravan basically 483 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 2: in that didn't have very good air conditioning and would 484 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 2: live through the wet the wet season and under really 485 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 2: incredible conditions. Like I just sort of think I could 486 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 2: probably never live in the Kimberley like that. Again now 487 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 2: understanding in many ways I can't remember because I was 488 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 2: a toddler, But how Mum and Dad did that, and 489 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 2: especially Mum being a desert woman growing up in a 490 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 2: dry climate, yeah, it amazes me. Just before I turned three, 491 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 2: Mum and Dad decided to move to Alice Springs, so 492 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 2: a bit closer to Yundamu where Mom's from, a bit 493 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 2: closer to family. And yeah, I mean all my life 494 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 2: I've been spent a lot of time at at under Moves, 495 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 2: like a second home, because all my family lived there, 496 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 2: you know, spend a lot of time as a kid, 497 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 2: would go camping, like mom and Dad would just pick 498 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 2: up and we'd be gone out bush or at camping 499 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 2: John and find the next lot of rock art that 500 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 2: Dad felt like he needed to go and discover, or 501 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 2: you know, going out with family and going hunting and 502 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 2: with my my aunties and my grandmother and Mum and 503 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 2: my cousins just walking around barefoot, you know, out on 504 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 2: our country and and yeah, my my, my, my auntie 505 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,959 Speaker 2: bopping to Goanna's on the head at once because they're mating, 506 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 2: you know, and all kinds of wonderful skills. You get 507 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 2: two in one that with that if you can come 508 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 2: across two goannas like that. But yeah, that was and 509 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 2: a lot of my family living in town camps around 510 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 2: Alice Springs as well, So a lot of time in 511 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 2: in town. 512 00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: Camps and in the in the town camps, you were 513 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 1: seeing good and the bad. A lot of lot of 514 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:04,040 Speaker 1: lot of the bad, I would imagine. 515 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, I mean, I have really happy memories too, 516 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 2: in town camps and just being with my cousins and stuff, 517 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 2: and but yeah, there's there's some really, it's certainly balanced 518 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 2: with some really you know, horrible memories as well. And 519 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 2: seeing seeing a woman in my extended family, her little 520 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 2: boy running from her because she's completely drunk and emotional 521 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 2: and got a knife in her hand, and him my 522 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 2: other aunties, you know, grabbing hold of the little fella 523 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 2: and comforting him while his mum's standing there stabbing herself 524 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 2: in the leg. You know, experiences like that, experiences of 525 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 2: as I've mentioned in the book, getting up in the 526 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 2: middle of the night and rescuing my family members from 527 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 2: you know, drunken violence that's unfolding in the town camp. 528 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's so all the all those things of 529 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:01,479 Speaker 1: what's created the person you are now. I suppose, Yeah, 530 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:03,479 Speaker 1: when did you? And we're going to talk about your 531 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 1: music career a little bit later. You're not getting getting 532 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 1: out of here without that. We'll do that in part too, 533 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,840 Speaker 1: I think. But what inspired you? The politics? I know 534 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 1: your mum was very much in the politics and was 535 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 1: a spokesperson and an elder that would offer opinions not 536 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,359 Speaker 1: the ways of popular opinions. That's a sense I get. 537 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: What inspired you to get into politics. 538 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 2: Probably the fact that it appeared as though those empowered 539 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:32,839 Speaker 2: didn't have a clue as to what was going on 540 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 2: in the ground in communities, and you know that lived 541 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:42,319 Speaker 2: experience was being sugarcoated or ignored in many ways. And 542 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 2: I think, you know, watching this abaginal industry flourish, but 543 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:52,360 Speaker 2: without anything any anything significant, any change occurring on the ground. 544 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 2: And also I guess knowing that there's some people who 545 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 2: perpetrators who were being revered as elders, and think, king, 546 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,279 Speaker 2: why is that? Why do we do that? And we 547 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,239 Speaker 2: can't we can't do that? How does that? How does 548 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,800 Speaker 2: that impact us positively? How what is that? What message 549 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 2: does that tell victims in our communities? 550 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you you bring up a point, and I 551 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 1: think one thing and looking at it doesn't matter which culture, 552 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 1: which you know, which community, children need to be protected. 553 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 1: And I think that's a no brainer. And you know, 554 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:35,440 Speaker 1: culture shouldn't override the protection of children. That's a simple philosophy. 555 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 1: I also picked up on one of your many documented 556 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: talks and you've even said it here today, and I 557 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 1: like that attitude that prevention is better than cure. So 558 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 1: when we're talking about the crime in the streets and 559 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,879 Speaker 1: kids getting in the trouble, what's your ideas of preventing that? 560 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 1: Like diversionary situations like the high incarceration rate. I can 561 00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 1: talk here generally, but I know Northern Territory it's on 562 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:01,680 Speaker 1: another level. For young Indigenous kids. 563 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 2: Incarceration comes down to the failures of the child protection system. 564 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 2: You know, it's and there are a number of different 565 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 2: failures I believe in the child protection system, you know, 566 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 2: just speaking in a committee just before actually about asking 567 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 2: questions around the kinship principle and how that's been prioritized 568 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:30,440 Speaker 2: for kids and this notion that culture and being connected 569 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,279 Speaker 2: to country is what should be the priority, Whereas my 570 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 2: idea of a priority is upholding the human rights of 571 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,759 Speaker 2: these kids to be able to live lives safely, you know, 572 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,880 Speaker 2: not exposed to domestic and family violence and sexual abuse 573 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:49,360 Speaker 2: and having their needs met. That should be the priority. 574 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:53,839 Speaker 2: But I feel as though the ideology and organizations child 575 00:36:53,880 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 2: protection organizations is that it's more about culture maintaining culture 576 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:06,880 Speaker 2: than it is about human rights. But then at the 577 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,720 Speaker 2: same time, there are failings in the child protection system 578 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 2: that regardless of all of that, kids are still not 579 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 2: properly their circumstances aren't properly considered. All there's potentially cares 580 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,319 Speaker 2: in the system that are doing wrong by these kids 581 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 2: when they're supposed to be in that system to be 582 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 2: protected as well. 583 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: Is there and he will throw within the silly white 584 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:37,480 Speaker 1: guy comments, but the stolen generation that the way it's portrayed, 585 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:41,840 Speaker 1: everyone carries shame with it and different things. One of 586 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 1: the articles I read or one of the speeches that 587 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,720 Speaker 1: you've given you you talked about when you're talking about children, 588 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 1: the kinship it should override the protection of the children 589 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 1: should override it. Where children are taken from one family 590 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 1: and placed into another, taken off of family that they've 591 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 1: been placed into because they're not indigenous, and to keep 592 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,879 Speaker 1: that cultural connection. I can see in an ideal world 593 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,320 Speaker 1: that would work, but you gave examples where it doesn't work. 594 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And that's the thing is to understand that 595 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:18,480 Speaker 2: whole family environment. You know, there are wonderful things about 596 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,719 Speaker 2: being part of huge Aboriginal families. The fact that there 597 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,760 Speaker 2: are so many that are prepared to take care of kids. 598 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:30,759 Speaker 2: In some circumstances, when it's grandparents, often they're overwhelmed and 599 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,919 Speaker 2: actually don't have the capacity to take on a lot 600 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,880 Speaker 2: of kids. And in some ways and in some circumstances, 601 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 2: there are still connections with potential predators within families if 602 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 2: kids remain in those circumstances. I'm also well aware of circumstances, 603 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,359 Speaker 2: particularly in the Northern Territory, where children have been put 604 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,760 Speaker 2: into foster care from when they're a baby, and then 605 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,240 Speaker 2: they're growing up in the suburbs of you know, places 606 00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 2: like other Springs, and they are they have special needs, 607 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 2: they might be kids with fas D, and so all 608 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:08,840 Speaker 2: the health and mental health services available to them, a 609 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 2: specialist services available to them are in that environment in 610 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 2: the suburbs. And then, you know, they get to the 611 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:19,320 Speaker 2: age of five or so, and suddenly somebody who says 612 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,080 Speaker 2: that they are kin who this child might not even know, 613 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:24,760 Speaker 2: a complete stranger to them, living out in a remote 614 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,759 Speaker 2: community where there is no access to all those services 615 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:32,359 Speaker 2: that supports that child's upbringing, suddenly become the care of 616 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:33,880 Speaker 2: that kid, and that kid is taken out of that 617 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 2: environment that they've only ever known and putting out into 618 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:44,359 Speaker 2: a remote community in circumstances where there are known perpetrators 619 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,719 Speaker 2: in those communities and pedophiles in those communities as well, 620 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,319 Speaker 2: So those kids are effectively put back in the path 621 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,759 Speaker 2: of danger. And I know of circumstances where that's been 622 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,440 Speaker 2: done and those children have been retraumatized, and those children 623 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:02,799 Speaker 2: have been you know, abused once more and then having 624 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,920 Speaker 2: to be taken back out and back with the original 625 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:10,480 Speaker 2: foster parents Like this is it's criminal to do that 626 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 2: to that child in the first place. And my argument 627 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,319 Speaker 2: is that I don't care what the racial heritage is 628 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 2: of the career for that child. If that child is 629 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:25,320 Speaker 2: being loved, cared for, protected and having all their needs met, 630 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 2: then that that should override any other decisions. I know 631 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 2: of circumstances where some kin will put their hand up 632 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:39,880 Speaker 2: because they know that there is a monetary element to 633 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:44,360 Speaker 2: it where there's they they then they then have access 634 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:48,720 Speaker 2: to payments for that child, but they're not necessarily putting 635 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,120 Speaker 2: the needs of that child first. And I mean, I 636 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:57,640 Speaker 2: know also of indigenous foster parents who are overwhelmed in 637 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:04,200 Speaker 2: their circumstances doing a remarkable job as well. So for me, 638 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:09,000 Speaker 2: you know, it's about ultimately the protection of that child 639 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:13,440 Speaker 2: is it should always be the first priority. And you know, 640 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,560 Speaker 2: when I talk about faster parents, some of those foster 641 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:21,400 Speaker 2: parents have worked in the police force in child abuse, 642 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,440 Speaker 2: you know, on the front line, so they know who 643 00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,120 Speaker 2: perpetrators are and to be taken care of a child, 644 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 2: for that child to be removed from their care, and 645 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 2: they've done everything they can to fight the child protection 646 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,800 Speaker 2: system to say this is wrong, and yet it still occurs. 647 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:38,080 Speaker 2: That's where we have major problems. 648 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:43,520 Speaker 1: Okay. In discussions I have with Indigenous communities and just 649 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 1: things I'm interested in, they talk about community leads solutions 650 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:52,480 Speaker 1: as distinct from government policy. The community want ownership in 651 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,880 Speaker 1: what's going to impact on them. I know that, and 652 00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:59,960 Speaker 1: I might be misinterpreted in this, but sometimes you'll criticize 653 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:05,759 Speaker 1: for not believing in community lead solutions, but that's a 654 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:07,719 Speaker 1: misrepresentation with a. 655 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:15,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I absolutely believe in community lead because 656 00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,240 Speaker 2: I think it's it's well, it's coming from the community. 657 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,240 Speaker 2: The community know what's what's going on on the ground 658 00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 2: within their community, and empowering those organizations to do so 659 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,880 Speaker 2: is great. But as long as there are checks and balances, 660 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:32,600 Speaker 2: as long as they are demonstrating outcomes, as long as 661 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,879 Speaker 2: there isn't a level of accountability as well involved, as 662 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,160 Speaker 2: long as you know, because there's you know, there's a 663 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:47,360 Speaker 2: number of recent examples of community organized original organizations where 664 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 2: their chairperson or a board member has a domestic violence history, 665 00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:58,239 Speaker 2: and that there's excuses made for those individuals and their positions. 666 00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,120 Speaker 2: So to me, that is that is there's the lowering 667 00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:08,160 Speaker 2: of expectations in Indigenous affairs and within some of these organizations. 668 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:13,359 Speaker 2: But governance is primary. It is so important and if 669 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:15,600 Speaker 2: we don't get that right, how do we know that 670 00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:20,080 Speaker 2: these organizations are delivering as they should? But I don't believe, 671 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:22,320 Speaker 2: you know, I think there should be freedom of choice 672 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,600 Speaker 2: for Indigenous Australians as well, because yes, we should invest 673 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:29,560 Speaker 2: in community driven or Aboriginal identified organizations and those sorts 674 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:32,520 Speaker 2: of things. But and that was another question that I 675 00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:36,480 Speaker 2: put to the Productivity Commission today during the Senate hearing, 676 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 2: was that is their data that draws a comparison between 677 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:47,200 Speaker 2: Aboriginal community lead and mainstream that'd be interesting And there 678 00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:51,680 Speaker 2: is no data, right, there is no data. So while 679 00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:54,440 Speaker 2: you know it is it is good to have community 680 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,280 Speaker 2: led and I just I don't believe in the concept 681 00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,440 Speaker 2: that only Aboriginal people know how to to better support 682 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:05,080 Speaker 2: Aboriginal people. I think we're all humans, and I think 683 00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 2: as humans and part of a wider community. You know, 684 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:14,520 Speaker 2: take for example, addiction is a human condition, and that 685 00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:19,240 Speaker 2: Western society has developed tools in order to help overcome addiction, 686 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:22,759 Speaker 2: and why wouldn't we draw on those tools given it 687 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:25,360 Speaker 2: it is a human condition to be able to help 688 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:30,560 Speaker 2: all people, including Indigenous Australians, overcome those things. So I 689 00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:33,160 Speaker 2: just don't believe in the concept that only Aboriginal people 690 00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,400 Speaker 2: know how to help Aboriginal people, because then we just 691 00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,960 Speaker 2: have Asian people just helping Asian people, and white people 692 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:41,080 Speaker 2: are helping white people. But we're all people ultimately. 693 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:44,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I hear what you're saying, but I know those 694 00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:48,040 Speaker 1: type of comments other people would say, we don't need 695 00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:49,799 Speaker 1: to be told what to do, we know what to do. 696 00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:56,800 Speaker 1: Some good community led projects. I've seen Redfern not clean 697 00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:01,520 Speaker 1: slate and tribal worry it that was I've had Shane 698 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:05,680 Speaker 1: Phillips on the podcast before. I'm amazed by the work 699 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,880 Speaker 1: that they did. And this was when we're talking. Redfern 700 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,520 Speaker 1: was a volatile place and there was a lot of 701 00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:16,400 Speaker 1: crime and a heavy indigenous population, and clean slate without 702 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:20,400 Speaker 1: prejudice and tribal boxing had some great results. And to 703 00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,600 Speaker 1: this day they're still running a great organization and doing 704 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:25,799 Speaker 1: good work. I see that from a cop or ex 705 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:26,719 Speaker 1: cops point of view. 706 00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:30,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, And look like I know some wonderful organizations like 707 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:33,759 Speaker 2: the Glen you know on the Central Coast and like 708 00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:38,759 Speaker 2: Black Rock in the Hunter doing amazing work to provide 709 00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:44,839 Speaker 2: employment pathways for prisoners. Like they're absolutely like wonderful programs 710 00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:49,759 Speaker 2: that are demonstrating that they're providing outcomes and should absolutely 711 00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:54,200 Speaker 2: be supported. And there's plenty of examples of that right 712 00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:54,960 Speaker 2: around the country. 713 00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:55,279 Speaker 1: Yeah. 714 00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:58,280 Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean, I'm not yeah, I never suggest 715 00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:00,360 Speaker 2: to discount one for the other, but we need a 716 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:02,719 Speaker 2: broad range of all of those. 717 00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:07,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, I'm just trying to try to understand because 718 00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,399 Speaker 1: I hear the stuff that oh no, this is what 719 00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,480 Speaker 1: she says and she means this, and so breaking it 720 00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:18,160 Speaker 1: down the Northern Territory intervention that always gets people's opinions 721 00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:22,239 Speaker 1: very very emotional about that. It was two thousand and 722 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:26,080 Speaker 1: seven where it first started. Do you want to explain 723 00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:28,919 Speaker 1: what that meant to you? As an Aboriginal person when 724 00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:32,280 Speaker 1: that came in, because it ran for it was only 725 00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:37,160 Speaker 1: stopped in twenty twenty two or twenty fifteen. I think 726 00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:40,759 Speaker 1: they had called it something else, but it ran till 727 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:42,080 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. 728 00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:46,120 Speaker 2: So there's still some policies in place as a result 729 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:50,239 Speaker 2: of that stronger futures. I think it was then sort 730 00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:55,280 Speaker 2: of overhauled by labor afterwards, and policies under that came 731 00:46:55,360 --> 00:47:02,000 Speaker 2: from that initially. And yeah, so when that occurred, it 732 00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:06,640 Speaker 2: was like breaking the seal. It was like, you know, 733 00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:11,320 Speaker 2: breaking the glass, the glass ceiling, if you like, because 734 00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:14,880 Speaker 2: for so long we've known about so many cases of abuse, 735 00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:19,880 Speaker 2: sexual abuse in remote communities and the little children are sacred. 736 00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:27,400 Speaker 2: Report was smashing that wide open, which led to the 737 00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:30,360 Speaker 2: intervention and it's and you know a lot of people 738 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,560 Speaker 2: demonize it and say that it disempowered Aboriginal people and 739 00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:35,800 Speaker 2: a lot of the time, well a lot of Aboriginal 740 00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:38,000 Speaker 2: people and communities are told that they are disempowered by 741 00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:40,520 Speaker 2: it and power was taken away from them. What they 742 00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:45,239 Speaker 2: don't realize is that the territory labor government at that 743 00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:51,240 Speaker 2: time broke down Aboriginal community councils disempowered them and created 744 00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:56,000 Speaker 2: councils super shires throughout the Northern Territory. And people get 745 00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,759 Speaker 2: that mixed up with the intervention. That wasn't an initiative 746 00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:03,520 Speaker 2: of the intervention, that was actually a Territory Labor Government 747 00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:09,640 Speaker 2: initiative which in fact a current Minister for Indigenous Astraliansmulandarry 748 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:12,920 Speaker 2: McCarthy was part of, and our current member for Lingiari, 749 00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:15,319 Speaker 2: Marion Scrimmagaw was part of as well. So a lot 750 00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:20,080 Speaker 2: of people felt disempowered by that change to the power 751 00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:24,080 Speaker 2: structure in the Northern Territory. It took jobs away from 752 00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:27,440 Speaker 2: Indigenous people in those communities when they no longer had 753 00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:31,640 Speaker 2: their own councils running their own councils. But the fact 754 00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:34,360 Speaker 2: that going back to the Little Children, a sacred report 755 00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:36,680 Speaker 2: that was out in the open, it was like ripping 756 00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:39,960 Speaker 2: a band off, band aid off a horrible festering saw 757 00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:43,960 Speaker 2: which needed to be exposed. And it empowered a lot 758 00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:47,040 Speaker 2: of Aboriginal women in those communities to take more of 759 00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:49,719 Speaker 2: a lead in that space as well. And you know, 760 00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:53,560 Speaker 2: my mum was one of those women. There was all 761 00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:57,560 Speaker 2: this converse, there was all this pushback from activists saying 762 00:48:57,560 --> 00:48:59,480 Speaker 2: this is all just about a land grab and all 763 00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:01,840 Speaker 2: these sorts of thing things. And I was actually on 764 00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:05,480 Speaker 2: the I was actually in remote communities, working, engaging with 765 00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:10,800 Speaker 2: sorry in town camps, engaging with town camps when during 766 00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:13,560 Speaker 2: the Gillard government, when they were delivering upgrades to those 767 00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:16,560 Speaker 2: town camps, and what the aim was to try and 768 00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:21,359 Speaker 2: bring those town camps to a standard with our suburbs 769 00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:25,440 Speaker 2: around Alice Springs instead, which was about civil works, you know, 770 00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:27,439 Speaker 2: basic things like that. So these are all the sorts 771 00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:30,160 Speaker 2: of things that came along at the same time, and 772 00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:33,600 Speaker 2: no one realizes that there were all these other elements 773 00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:36,680 Speaker 2: that came to it. But as a family, we were like, 774 00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:42,759 Speaker 2: thank god, someone is prepared to actually take seriously what's 775 00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:46,080 Speaker 2: going on in remote communities when it comes to the 776 00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:49,040 Speaker 2: fact that our kids are experiencing these horrible rates of 777 00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,440 Speaker 2: sexual abuse and that our women are experiencing these horrible 778 00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:57,960 Speaker 2: rates of DV. And an interesting thing is a year 779 00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:01,360 Speaker 2: or so ago I had a conversation with mel Braff. 780 00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:06,480 Speaker 2: He rang me to tell me that he said one 781 00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:10,920 Speaker 2: of the significant pushes behind initiating that intervention was that 782 00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:14,600 Speaker 2: he received a letter from a young Aboriginal woman living 783 00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:16,560 Speaker 2: in a town camp who wrote to him to say, 784 00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:18,759 Speaker 2: you know, each night I go to bed and I 785 00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:20,880 Speaker 2: don't know if i'll wake up the next day, whether 786 00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:23,960 Speaker 2: this is the night that I'll be murdered, and I've 787 00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:28,560 Speaker 2: got a baby, and basically outlined the conditions that she'd 788 00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:33,920 Speaker 2: been living in. And he described this young woman to me, 789 00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:39,319 Speaker 2: and from her circumstances, I thought to myself, Wow, I 790 00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:45,680 Speaker 2: feel like that's my cousin, you know. And I said 791 00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:47,000 Speaker 2: to him do you remember her name? And he said, 792 00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,040 Speaker 2: I'd have to go looking for it. I can't remember 793 00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:50,359 Speaker 2: off the top of my head. But I said, look, 794 00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:52,480 Speaker 2: I'm going to go and have a conversation my cousin. 795 00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:54,360 Speaker 2: And I did. I rang my cousin. I said, hey, listen, 796 00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:56,920 Speaker 2: you didn't happen to write a letter to mel Broff 797 00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:59,720 Speaker 2: and she said, yeah, I did. I'm like, wow, okay, 798 00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:07,120 Speaker 2: And her circumstances have changed significantly, and she is very 799 00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:13,239 Speaker 2: sought after interpreter and she does other wonderful work in 800 00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:16,560 Speaker 2: the indigenous space. And she got out of that situation 801 00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:21,319 Speaker 2: and her daughter is achieving remarkable things in her life now. 802 00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:24,920 Speaker 2: And her daughter is eighteen, and the kids that come 803 00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:28,560 Speaker 2: along are as well. So she escaped that, but I 804 00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:33,319 Speaker 2: just thought, you know, I was so surprised that that 805 00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:36,000 Speaker 2: was what, you know, part of that led to that. 806 00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:41,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, looking back at it, can you explain because I 807 00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:46,239 Speaker 1: know with the people in circles I mixed Indigenous communities, 808 00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:48,520 Speaker 1: there's a lot of people that were outraged by what 809 00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,120 Speaker 1: happened there. Do you understand where they're coming from? Can 810 00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:54,759 Speaker 1: you see their perspective on where they felt that? Why 811 00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:58,280 Speaker 1: are we being treated this way? There was rampant sexual 812 00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:01,000 Speaker 1: abuse in the Catholic Church? Why I didn't Why wasn't 813 00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:04,000 Speaker 1: there any intervention there? Comments like that that come out? 814 00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:05,000 Speaker 1: Do you understand where? 815 00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:07,719 Speaker 2: Well, I guess there has been an intervention, you know, 816 00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:12,360 Speaker 2: and recognition from the Catholic Church and a response to that, 817 00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:15,920 Speaker 2: and there's been a redress scheme for those victims. So 818 00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:18,720 Speaker 2: I mean, that's sort of the thing that I'm calling 819 00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:22,080 Speaker 2: for right when it comes to our kids. And look, 820 00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:26,640 Speaker 2: a lot of the outrage was fueled by the activist class. 821 00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:30,880 Speaker 2: There were a lot of miss truths being told about 822 00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:35,719 Speaker 2: what was going on. You know, people in community, vulnerable 823 00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:41,879 Speaker 2: individuals who without a proper education, can't disseminate what's real 824 00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:47,960 Speaker 2: information and what isn't And so you know, there weren't 825 00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:57,520 Speaker 2: there wasn't a a an army tank going through a 826 00:52:57,560 --> 00:52:59,360 Speaker 2: community community. 827 00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:02,200 Speaker 1: The army suggesting the medium miss leads. 828 00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:04,960 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, but that's the thing, right, People going, oh, 829 00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:06,759 Speaker 2: they're going to take away our babies and they're going 830 00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:09,080 Speaker 2: to do this, and they're whipped into a frenzy by 831 00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:12,839 Speaker 2: those who should have known better as well, Like the 832 00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:17,600 Speaker 2: army were there to help with health checks. They were 833 00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:20,040 Speaker 2: supporting the community, much like what would happen if there 834 00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:22,799 Speaker 2: was some kind of natural disaster when the army goes in, 835 00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:24,880 Speaker 2: you know, just setting up tents and doing health checks 836 00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:27,879 Speaker 2: and those sorts of things. And why would you want 837 00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:31,280 Speaker 2: to not allow for that to occur or to go ahead? 838 00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:35,160 Speaker 2: And it wasn't designed to try and say that all 839 00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:41,839 Speaker 2: Aboriginal men are pedophiles. Again, it's prioritizing. It's going, oh, 840 00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:43,799 Speaker 2: how are we going to be perceived as opposed to 841 00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:47,880 Speaker 2: let's protect protect our vulnerable, let's protect our children. That's 842 00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:51,560 Speaker 2: that's what I can't get around. Why there is such 843 00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:56,880 Speaker 2: a such a need to you know, take offense and 844 00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:00,719 Speaker 2: be defensive as opposed to go this is actually about 845 00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:04,600 Speaker 2: our victims and our vulnerable, not about anything else. 846 00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:11,080 Speaker 1: Okay, focusing on preventing children becoming victims. Yeah, absolutely, point 847 00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:14,439 Speaker 1: in time, so it's from two thousand and seven, let's 848 00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:18,560 Speaker 1: say through the twenty twenty two. Do you think the 849 00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:22,520 Speaker 1: current Northern territories in a better situation because of the intervention? 850 00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:26,160 Speaker 1: Because there's issues going on there? Now? Do you think 851 00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:27,600 Speaker 1: it was a good thing or a bad thing with 852 00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:29,800 Speaker 1: the benefit of hindsight looking back at the history. 853 00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:33,840 Speaker 2: Look, I think it has I'm not saying it was perfect. 854 00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:39,080 Speaker 2: It has its upsides and its downside to it. And 855 00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:45,920 Speaker 2: the situation is that, yes, Aboriginal people feel disempowered in communities, 856 00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:48,920 Speaker 2: but there are other factors involved in that as well, 857 00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:52,520 Speaker 2: and they're the sorts of things that I hope to address. 858 00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:55,759 Speaker 2: You know, if I've successfully become a Minister for Indigenous Australians. 859 00:54:55,760 --> 00:55:00,680 Speaker 2: It comes around empowerment through participating a actively in the 860 00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:04,319 Speaker 2: economy which allows for people to stand on their own 861 00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:08,440 Speaker 2: two feet, and welfare dependency is a huge factor in 862 00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:13,719 Speaker 2: why things aren't progressing out in communities. Wealth generation or 863 00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:21,280 Speaker 2: inability to create wealth generation in communities is a huge factor. Again, 864 00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:23,640 Speaker 2: just going back to this committee that I've just been 865 00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:30,399 Speaker 2: sitting on and the Productivity Commission have outlined that land 866 00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:34,200 Speaker 2: rights and land and sea rights hasn't equated to better 867 00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:39,040 Speaker 2: outcomes as yet. But the environment, the Land Rights Act 868 00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:41,280 Speaker 2: that we are governed under in the Northern Territory doesn't 869 00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:45,440 Speaker 2: necessarily allow for traditional owners to utilize their land for 870 00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:50,880 Speaker 2: the benefit of economic development. There's no home ownership opportunities, 871 00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:54,040 Speaker 2: there's no private land ownership opportunities, and we know that 872 00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:58,359 Speaker 2: that is what helps people to create wealth, to stand 873 00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:01,000 Speaker 2: on their own two feet, to live comfortably, to ensure 874 00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:03,520 Speaker 2: that their kids go to school, to create jobs. 875 00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:04,960 Speaker 1: And I want. 876 00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:10,040 Speaker 2: To work toward creating that environment where traditional owners become 877 00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:13,640 Speaker 2: job creators, not just have a job, but become job 878 00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:17,520 Speaker 2: creators so that they can participate in the economy like 879 00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:20,080 Speaker 2: everybody else in this country has the opportunity to. And 880 00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:24,200 Speaker 2: that's what we haven't got to yet. And when you've 881 00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:26,920 Speaker 2: got mums and dads working, kids are more likely to 882 00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:28,840 Speaker 2: go to school, kids are going to get an education. 883 00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:32,759 Speaker 2: But our curriculum needs to be such that it is 884 00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:37,399 Speaker 2: allowing for kids in communities to be able to leave 885 00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:43,200 Speaker 2: school and actually have the appropriate level of education to 886 00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:46,480 Speaker 2: either go on to further to go into employment or 887 00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:47,800 Speaker 2: go on to further education. 888 00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:51,160 Speaker 1: It's a vicious cycle. If a family has been living 889 00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:54,280 Speaker 1: in welfare and it doesn't need to be an Indigenous family. 890 00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:59,440 Speaker 1: I've seen families where three generations of white fellows and 891 00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:02,920 Speaker 1: they have and have the job. That doesn't create a 892 00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:05,920 Speaker 1: good role model or an understanding of what life is about. 893 00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:08,480 Speaker 2: And can I just stay on that as well. And 894 00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:11,840 Speaker 2: like in my previous research findings is that the further 895 00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:17,240 Speaker 2: you move away from a city, the more marginalized Australians become, 896 00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:21,000 Speaker 2: both Indigenous and non Indigenous because there is less of 897 00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:24,480 Speaker 2: an access to services. There is less availability of jobs 898 00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:26,520 Speaker 2: and those sorts of things to be able to provide 899 00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:28,560 Speaker 2: that and that goes for everybody. 900 00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:32,880 Speaker 1: There's a region. Yeah, there's problems within the city, like 901 00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:35,920 Speaker 1: living with living within the city as well, But I 902 00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:40,360 Speaker 1: agree the services across the board, the more remote, the 903 00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:44,760 Speaker 1: more difficult it is to match those services. We'll finish 904 00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:47,840 Speaker 1: off on part one. It's hard to find a question. 905 00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:51,200 Speaker 1: I can ask you that it's not controversial. I'm looking 906 00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:55,520 Speaker 1: for them. But yeah, in the introduction I said that 907 00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:58,320 Speaker 1: you've got strong opinions and you're prepared to pair the 908 00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:01,560 Speaker 1: back I'll ask one question here, just a general question 909 00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:04,000 Speaker 1: that I'm just curious. If you were to speak to 910 00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:06,600 Speaker 1: someone from overseas and they asked how Indigenous people are 911 00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:09,560 Speaker 1: treated in this country, what would you say, Well. 912 00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:13,840 Speaker 2: I'd say Indigenous people have incredible opportunity in this country. 913 00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:18,080 Speaker 2: There are many people in this country who want what's 914 00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:23,600 Speaker 2: best for Indigenous Australians. No country, there's no country on 915 00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:26,600 Speaker 2: the face of the earth that doesn't have its handful 916 00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:32,400 Speaker 2: of you know, those who have racist attitudes across the board. 917 00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:39,200 Speaker 2: But yeah, otherwise, I believe that in general terms, most 918 00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:46,360 Speaker 2: Australians want what's best for Indigenous Australians. And as I said, 919 00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:49,080 Speaker 2: and governments have been bending over backwards to ensure that 920 00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:52,080 Speaker 2: there is plenty of opportunity that is being provided for 921 00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:54,800 Speaker 2: Indigenous Australians. That's what i'd say. 922 00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:58,400 Speaker 1: Okay, we'll leave, we'll leave it that, let's take a 923 00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:00,400 Speaker 1: break and we'll be back in part two and I'm 924 00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:03,280 Speaker 1: sure I'll have some more interesting questions for it. Thank you, 925 00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:12,560 Speaker 1: Jeers M.