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Speaker 1: Captain George dom Well very much.

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Speaker 2: Now you are the You're actually the second American military

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Speaker 2: person that I've had on this podcast, and the first

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Speaker 2: was Colonel Lee Ellis Lately Ellis and I know your Navy,

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Speaker 2: his Army, and he spent five and a half years

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Speaker 2: in the Hanowi Hilton prison camp. Yeah so, and that

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Speaker 2: that was a fascinating conversation.

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Speaker 3: Now you are a.

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Speaker 1: Naive all aviator or an next native a aviator.

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Speaker 2: Like myself, but you had a rather more distinguished and

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Speaker 2: exciting career than my poultry eight years. And tell us

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Speaker 2: what so before we get into your career highlights, what

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Speaker 2: what inspired you.

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Speaker 1: To pursue your career in.

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Speaker 2: Native all aviation and and was it was the aviation

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Speaker 2: that you joined them for?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's correct. You know, I grew up I'm going

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Speaker 3: to date myself here, but I grew up during the

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Speaker 3: Vietnam War, and so when I graduated from high school,

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Speaker 3: very few people in my friend group were interested in

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Speaker 3: going into the military. But my father had served in

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Speaker 3: World War Two and in the Navy. And while he

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Speaker 3: never made it a big deal in terms of pushing

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Speaker 3: I was the youngest of three boys, I knew it

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Speaker 3: was important to him that one of us had a

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Speaker 3: military experience, whether it was just for a couple of

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Speaker 3: years or a career, but just something. So so I

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Speaker 3: signed up to apply for the Navy ROTC program. And

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Speaker 3: this is a program where you can go to one

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Speaker 3: of many different civilian colleges and when you graduate, you

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Speaker 3: become commissioned and go off to serve whatever. And and

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Speaker 3: so I did that, and that's what that's what got

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Speaker 3: me interested in the Navy. And then in the summertime

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Speaker 3: they give you opportunities to see what you could go into.

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Speaker 3: So I spent a week on a submarine, a couple

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Speaker 3: of weeks on a destroyer, a couple of weeks with

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Speaker 3: the Marine Corps, and then a couple of weeks where

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Speaker 3: I got to do some flying. When I got a

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Speaker 3: backseat flight in a THA FORO Skyhawk jet, that that

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Speaker 3: really hooked me. And so after I graduated, I went

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Speaker 3: off to I'm off the flight school, and twenty six

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Speaker 3: years later, I'm walking out of the Pentagon saying that

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Speaker 3: was pretty cool time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, awesome.

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Speaker 2: And I tell you what, I bet you the week

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Speaker 2: in the submarine. Didn't want you to join submarine.

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Speaker 3: Was a little claustrophobic.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they are very specialist individuals, aren't they.

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Speaker 1: Environers?

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Speaker 3: And there's no you need characters.

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Speaker 2: Yours like you had a pretty distinguished career ending up

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Speaker 2: as as Navy captain, and and anybody who knows army

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Speaker 2: it's very very different.

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Speaker 1: What's what's the what's the equivalent crank in the army?

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Speaker 2: I forget I've been out so long, colonel, yeah, so,

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Speaker 2: and you know you've been commander on of of flight

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Speaker 2: squadrons on aircraft carriers, which the Americans do aircraft carriers

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Speaker 2: a lot better.

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Speaker 1: Than the British.

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Speaker 2: And you you also ran the Blue Angels, which is

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Speaker 2: anybody from the UK the Red Arrows, I think it's

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Speaker 2: the equivalent, right so, which just must have been amazing.

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Speaker 2: And then you're an instructor at top Gun. So give

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Speaker 2: us a couple of highlights from from those different areas.

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Speaker 2: You know, your time on the carrier, your time and the.

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Speaker 1: Brillions and the time on top.

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Speaker 3: And during my career I had the opportunity to deploy

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Speaker 3: nine times on the aircraft carrier around the world, got

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Speaker 3: to of course see some very interesting places and participated

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Speaker 3: in combat actions against Libya and of course against Iraq

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Speaker 3: during desert storm and also in the Adriatic in Kosovo

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Speaker 3: against the Serbs and so forth. So it was a

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Speaker 3: very exciting opportunity. But the neat part about living in

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Speaker 3: of course, the flying off the carrier is just very

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Speaker 3: exciting and on a beautiful day or even at nighttime,

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Speaker 3: if you have a good horizon and a steady deck.

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Speaker 3: Don't tell anybody this, but we would pay money to

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Speaker 3: do it. We call it the sport of Kings and

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Speaker 3: it's just fabulous sport. And we grade every landing in

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Speaker 3: order to channel that type a personalities to try to

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Speaker 3: do it. Landed perfectly on the carrier and that then

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Speaker 3: enhances our safefty level. Right. So, but then it you know,

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Speaker 3: in bad weather, nighttime, there's something wrong with the carrier,

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Speaker 3: there's something wrong with the airplane and the decks moving.

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Speaker 3: That's when you really really earn your pay. But the

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Speaker 3: highlight for that experience for me was being on a

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Speaker 3: ship of literally five thousand people that come from all

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Speaker 3: walks of life in our country, all economic backgrounds, all religions, ethnicities,

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Speaker 3: and we come together under a common mission and shared sacrifice,

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Speaker 3: and it's really just a wonderful experience to be a

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Speaker 3: part of that. The morale is great, and so that

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Speaker 3: was my big takeaway from that experience. Top Gun was

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Speaker 3: interesting in that, again I'm going to date myself, but

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Speaker 3: I checked in as a young bachelor lieutenant to become

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Speaker 3: a top Gun instructor in San Diego a month after

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Speaker 3: the first movie came out.

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Speaker 1: Uh oh, my goodness.

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Speaker 3: Serious pretty good for lieutenant dom there where I had

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Speaker 3: to come to work to rest up from. But but

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Speaker 3: that was a wonderful experience because that that whole organization

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Speaker 3: is driven to find out how good can you get

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Speaker 3: in the in the airplane and how well can you

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Speaker 3: teach the students that come through in order for them

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Speaker 3: to take take it back to their squadrons and teach

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Speaker 3: them the latest and greatest tactics and standard operating procedures

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Speaker 3: and what the what the threat is up to and

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Speaker 3: so forth. And the idea is we train the trainers,

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Speaker 3: they go back to their squadrons, and then they raise

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Speaker 3: the level of because you know, interestingly, the Top Gun

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Speaker 3: got started during the Vietnam War and there was a

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Speaker 3: real challenge because historically, you know, we had enjoyed about

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Speaker 3: a ten to one ratio in air to air combat

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Speaker 3: during World War Two and during Korea and in Vietnam,

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Speaker 3: the ratio came down to like two to three to one,

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Speaker 3: and that just wasn't acceptable, right, And so they did

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Speaker 3: a big study to find out why aren't we performing better?

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Speaker 3: And some of it was technical, some of it was logistics,

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Speaker 3: some of the missiles and so forth were getting damaged

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Speaker 3: in shipment out to the Pacific, But a lot of

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Speaker 3: it was training. We had gotten away from training against

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Speaker 3: what our typical adversary was going to be. We were

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Speaker 3: fighting against each other in similar performing airplanes, right, And

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Speaker 3: so they started the school to teach how do you

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Speaker 3: maximize your airplanes's capabilities versus the Vietnamese aircraft they were

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Speaker 3: flying Soviet Meg FIFTEENSG seventeens and so forth megs and

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Speaker 3: so after the bombing halt and the first graduates from

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Speaker 3: the school went back out and taught to their squadron mates.

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Speaker 3: Over time, the Navy shootdown ratio went up to thirteen

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Speaker 3: to one, whereas the Air Force that did not implement

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Speaker 3: a training program at the time like that, they stayed.

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Speaker 3: My understanding is pretty much, you know, three to one

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Speaker 3: or so for the duration. But they now have their

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Speaker 3: version of it at Nellis Air Force Base and have

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Speaker 3: enjoyed the results of that really great training. So that

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Speaker 3: was sort of my top gun experience and I can

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Speaker 3: tell you talk to you more about it. And certainly

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Speaker 3: we realized the movie was going to be a documentary.

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Speaker 3: But I but I think the flying scenes I think

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Speaker 3: represent very well what the dynamic nature of air to

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Speaker 3: air combat is all about. I mean, you've got airplanes

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Speaker 3: that are swirling all around, You're you're pulling six seven g's,

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Speaker 3: so your body is you know, just imagine being seven

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Speaker 3: times heavier, your head being seven times heavier, and you're

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Speaker 3: looking around trying to keep track of everybody that's out

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Speaker 3: there and so forth. It's really but but in the move,

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Speaker 3: the big difference in the movie is there's no award

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Speaker 3: given in the class for individual performance because the emphasis

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Speaker 3: is on teamwork and the students working together to develop,

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Speaker 3: you know, good plans and then go out and execute

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Speaker 3: those plans with discipline in order to fight and survive.

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Speaker 3: And so that's the key difference between uh, Tom Cruise,

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Speaker 3: Maverick and Iceman competing for the trophy. You know, it's

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Speaker 3: not that's not how it is.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, made for TV and The interesting thing about

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Speaker 2: particularly flying in fast jets is.

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Speaker 1: The speed that you're breeding would have to work out.

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Speaker 2: So you know, I was a helicopter navigator and that

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Speaker 2: was mental enough. But you know, we're flying around at

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Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty knots and you guys are going

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Speaker 2: way faster, and as you said, there's there's like there's there's.

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Speaker 1: Aircraft all around you. It's like that that.

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Speaker 2: Speed of of of processing in the Brian has just

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Speaker 2: got to.

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Speaker 3: The speed and the and you're and you're trying to

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Speaker 3: you're you're operating in three dimensions. And uh, and some

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Speaker 3: of the guys I flew with, I mean, they were

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Speaker 3: unbelievable in being able to, you know, to deal in

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Speaker 3: that environment. Frankly, I had to work pretty hard at

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Speaker 3: it to keep up. But yeah, that's and so you

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Speaker 3: have to keep things simple, right. You have to distill

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Speaker 3: down a complex plan and have very specific things that

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Speaker 3: you can trip wires if you will, in the mission

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Speaker 3: so that you know what to do when and you

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Speaker 3: don't overly complicate it, so that you can execute in

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Speaker 3: what what we call when your brain starts running on

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Speaker 3: what we call stem power, right where everything's got your

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Speaker 3: the sheoting's going on, the missiles are coming up, and

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Speaker 3: you just have to execute right. So you've got to

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Speaker 3: keep it simple and and you've got to train really

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Speaker 3: realistically with repetition so that it becomes something that's very

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Speaker 3: you can just respond react in the moment correctly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and look at it would have been the same

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Speaker 2: with your flying training as my flying training, where they

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Speaker 2: do you know, you do a simulator flight and the

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Speaker 2: instructor can throw curveballs at you, and then you go

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Speaker 2: up and you do that flight in the er, which

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Speaker 2: odds in a whole heap of complexities, but it's the grided,

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Speaker 2: increasing graded exposure through the training and that repetition.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it is. In the top gun class, you start

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Speaker 3: out fighting one versus one dog fighting, and then after

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Speaker 3: a series of those, then you go two verses two,

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Speaker 3: and you do a series of those, and then it

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Speaker 3: becomes two verses. You don't know how many are going

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Speaker 3: to be out there, three, four or five, and then

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Speaker 3: you put four jets together what we call a division,

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Speaker 3: and now you go four versus unknown, and so, yeah,

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Speaker 3: you're exactly right. You ramp up the complexity, you also

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Speaker 3: ramp up what the threat is. Simulating so we would

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Speaker 3: start out with a very pretty basic threat North Korea

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Speaker 3: or something like that, and then as the scenarios went on,

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Speaker 3: the threat would become more and more capable until we

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Speaker 3: got to the end of the program and the class

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Speaker 3: had to do a graduation strike. And it was pretty exciting, I.

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Speaker 2: Can imagine, and I think the training protocols developed and

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Speaker 2: the ones that I experienced, the ones that you experienced,

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Speaker 2: it's really best class training for anything. Really, you know,

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Speaker 2: that whole created exposure, increasing to overload, and then I

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Speaker 2: remember feeling a flight and they take you back a

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Speaker 2: notch and then re establish your confidence. You'd be assigned

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Speaker 2: in the you added again, and then things just get

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Speaker 2: faster and busier and faster than that busier.

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Speaker 3: The critical element of that learning process. There's a lot

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Speaker 3: that goes into it, of course, but the critical element

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Speaker 3: to it is something that is sacred in naval aviation.

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Speaker 3: And I'm sure I'm sure the same, Yes, I guess,

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Speaker 3: of course exactly. And you know, coming into the womb

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Speaker 3: and figuratively taking off the rank and going into the

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Speaker 3: room and being willing to figure out okay, because nobody

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Speaker 3: has the complete picture of what happened out there, so

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Speaker 3: together you figure out and first of all, you just

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Speaker 3: want to objectively get out there what happened. And then

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Speaker 3: based on that, then okay, why did it happen? And

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Speaker 3: then what can we do to reinforce the things that

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Speaker 3: went well and also to correct the things that could

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Speaker 3: be done better? And you know, we had little tricks

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Speaker 3: that we did, you know, for example, to try to

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Speaker 3: defuse some of the ego in the debrief, we would

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Speaker 3: we would talk in the third person. It would it

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Speaker 3: wasn't you and me, it was the blue fighter and

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Speaker 3: the red fight. And we would and we would get

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Speaker 3: a little bit of cognitive distance from it to try

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Speaker 3: to keep the ego out of it so the student

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Speaker 3: was more likely to absorb and take on mistakes and

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Speaker 3: so forth if we if we did that, and then

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Speaker 3: we always tried to at the end, we really tried to.

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Speaker 3: You know, we would call it goods and others and

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Speaker 3: we would make a wed make a list as a

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Speaker 3: wrap up for the debriefs, because again we wanted to

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Speaker 3: make sure we recognized what went well, uh, but also

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Speaker 3: point out, okay, now what do we need to do

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Speaker 3: tomorrow in order to continue to raise our game? And uh,

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Speaker 3: and it's and it's really very cool once you embrace it. However,

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Speaker 3: as I work with corporations and companies and business teams,

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Speaker 3: they seem to struggle with all of that.

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Speaker 1: One hundred percent percent.

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Speaker 2: And and you know, and because I really wanted to

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Speaker 2: to co deep on this one, because I worked with

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Speaker 2: a lot of businesses as well, and I often tell

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Speaker 2: a story that that this was the thing that really

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Speaker 2: made the power of a debrief sink in for me.

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Speaker 2: And we were all young, young instructors going through advanced

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Speaker 2: flying training pilots and observers or navigators. And one of

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Speaker 2: the instructors who was a retired pilot doing instructing NIGHTE.

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Speaker 2: Hennel was his name, and he was so experienced, he'd

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Speaker 2: been flying since the sixties. And he sat as don

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Speaker 2: and he told us one day about when he first

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Speaker 2: got his wings.

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Speaker 1: And he went on the aircraft carrier.

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Speaker 2: They sealed from Portsmouth and they sealed to the far

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Speaker 2: East and he said, by the time they got there,

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Speaker 2: I think it was three months later, half of all

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Speaker 2: the crew.

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Speaker 1: On board were dead.

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Speaker 2: Because he said, flying helicopters off ships is inherently dangerous

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Speaker 2: and that was just jaw dropping, and he said, that's

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Speaker 2: where that culture of debrief came in so strongly.

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Speaker 1: And it's not not just about learning from your mistakes,

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Speaker 1: but learning from others.

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Speaker 2: And I'm sure it would be the same in the

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Speaker 2: American military that as an aircraft captain you had to

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Speaker 2: read all of the aircraft incidents that had happened and

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Speaker 2: sign that you had read them before you were allowed

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Speaker 2: to take your aircraft out. And that culture of learning

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Speaker 2: from others' mistakes and the willingness like anytime there's an incident,

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Speaker 2: there is that dissection of what happened and you know

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Speaker 2: whether it was part of our engineering or whatever it was.

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Speaker 2: And it's not to fingerpoint, it's so that people can

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Speaker 2: learn from others mistakes because with our crew often you

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Speaker 2: can't wait to learn from your own mistakes, right And

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Speaker 2: and and I think it's a critic on so many businesses,

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Speaker 2: don't do you have seen it? George be at these

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Speaker 2: conferences and they're up there and they're talking about best

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Speaker 2: practice and all that, and I'm like, who's start talking

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Speaker 2: about the big fuck ups?

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Speaker 1: Right, so that people can learn from that. What's your

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Speaker 1: what's your take on this?

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Speaker 3: A couple thoughts. One is you know, not only did

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Speaker 3: we take time to investigate and debrief mishaps and so forth.

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Speaker 3: But we would also do the same thing for near missus.

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Speaker 3: We didn't we didn't want to be where well we

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Speaker 3: leoked out on that one and then forget about it.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 3: We would have we would assume, Okay, we just had

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Speaker 3: a midair out there. Now, let's go back and figure

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Speaker 3: out what what happened, you know, even though it wasn't.

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Speaker 3: Thankfully we didn't have to pay the ultimate price for it. Uh.

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Speaker 3: And and I'll share with you a story from when

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Speaker 3: I was with the Blue Angels, because I was the

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Speaker 3: leader of the of the Blue Angels. And interestingly enough,

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Speaker 3: you don't start as a wingman, at least in our

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Speaker 3: organization and then come up to be the leader. You

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Speaker 3: come in as the leader. So I had much more

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Speaker 3: experience than my wingmen did because they were much junior

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Speaker 3: to me in rank. But I didn't have any Blue

305
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Speaker 3: Angel experience, which requires a level of consistent, very precise

306
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Speaker 3: flying that you know, I'd never been asked to do before. Right,

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Speaker 3: So my first couple of weeks were really something. And

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Speaker 3: I just remember being in a debrief at the end

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Speaker 3: of my first week, and one of the things that

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Speaker 3: we do in the debrief is I'm expected to share

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Speaker 3: what significant mistakes I'm aware of that I made, because

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Speaker 3: what that is that gives my wingmen an idea of

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Speaker 3: to what degree am I aware of our own performance?

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Speaker 3: Because because if I'm making a mistake and I don't

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Speaker 3: I don't recognize it, we got a problem. If I'm

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Speaker 3: making a mistake and I'm not willing to admit it,

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Speaker 3: we got another problem because you're not going to trust

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Speaker 3: somebody who's not willing to be vulnerable to be transparent.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: So, anyway, we're sitting at the end of that. It's

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Speaker 3: been a long week. We've been flying two and three

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Speaker 3: times a day. I'm trying to not only fly precisely,

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Speaker 3: but with the Blue Angels, we fly so close together

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Speaker 3: that I have to talk while I'm flying because I

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Speaker 3: don't move either hand without first telling my wingman a

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Speaker 3: command of preparation and then execution. Right, So I'm trying

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Speaker 3: to talk and fly, and anyway, at the end of

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Speaker 3: the first week, I'm I'm worn out right, and we're

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Speaker 3: in the debrief and my bucket is so full. I

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Speaker 3: remember the first on the fifteen minutes or twenty minutes

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Speaker 3: of the flight, but after that, I can't remember all

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Speaker 3: the stuff that went on out there and my mistakes.

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Speaker 3: And finally I sent to the guys, you know, because

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Speaker 3: I finished my list, and then they said, well, Boss,

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Speaker 3: we also did this and this and this and this

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Speaker 3: and finally, you know, and just a little bit of

337
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Speaker 3: frustration and exasperation, I said, I said, okay, you guys,

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Speaker 3: don't you see I'm trying as hard as I can here,

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Speaker 3: And God bless them, they looked at me and very

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Speaker 3: professionally and everything they said, Roger that, Boss, we know

341
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Speaker 3: you're trying hard, but we don't grade on effort. We

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Speaker 3: grade on performance. And in these these four or five manoevers,

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Speaker 3: you suck. You got to get better. You can't be

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Speaker 3: waggling your wings because we can't get in there, and

345
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Speaker 3: so forth. And it was an AHA moment for me

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Speaker 3: because I looked across the room at my wingmen and

347
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Speaker 3: I realized they weren't bringing me this to make themselves

348
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Speaker 3: look good or make me feel bad or point fingers

349
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Speaker 3: or they They were one hundred percent wanted me to

350
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Speaker 3: get better, and we as a team weren't going to

351
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Speaker 3: get any better than by definition than that. I as

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Speaker 3: the leader flew right. And so that was a switch

353
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Speaker 3: for me that allowed me to embrace Okay, I want

354
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Speaker 3: it all, bring me all the truth you got because

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Speaker 3: I want to I want to get really good and

356
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Speaker 3: be worthy of you know, what the team stands for

357
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Speaker 3: and where we want to accomplish. So it was pretty cool.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's hugely important as well.

359
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Speaker 1: You know, I when I slang in.

360
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Speaker 2: Helicopters, particularly helicopter search and rescue, which is inherently dangerous,

361
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Speaker 2: I mean the culture and I'm imagining the culture would

362
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Speaker 2: be the same. You know, there's four people that are

363
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Speaker 2: one person making mistake and four people are dead, and

364
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Speaker 2: so the the the debrief culture is tabs off.

365
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Speaker 1: Rank does not matter in the debrief.

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Speaker 2: And and and you brought it up like somebody pulling

367
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Speaker 2: the boss up and going you suck like you don't.

368
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Speaker 1: You don't get that culture very much in business, do you.

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Speaker 2: And and and it's I think it goes back to

370
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Speaker 2: what you're talking about the egos earlier on. But but

371
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Speaker 2: this is where performance tied to safety takes it up

372
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Speaker 2: a notch. And and and where there's that desire for

373
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Speaker 2: performance and the idea of mastery, then then Eagles.

374
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Speaker 3: And you know, when I talked to groups, sometimes somebody

375
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Speaker 3: will say, well, yeah, you guys had to be that

376
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Speaker 3: way because it was life and death, right, And I say, yeah,

377
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Speaker 3: you're right. But I don't believe that the principles change

378
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 3: just because the consequences go up. We just couldn't compromise,

379
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Speaker 3: We couldn't look away. And I tell them, look, if

380
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,400
Speaker 3: you'll take these principles and you applying at your business,

381
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,679
Speaker 3: you're going to see massive improvement. Now you don't have

382
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 3: to be all the way to the end of the

383
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Speaker 3: continuum like we had to. But if you just raised

384
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Speaker 3: your game and the level of trust in your organization

385
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Speaker 3: fifteen twenty thirty percent, man, you'll see Yeah.

386
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Speaker 1: Game changer. Game changer. Yeah. Absolutely.

387
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Speaker 2: And now before we dive into because I do want

388
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Speaker 2: to really dive into your book, but when you transitioned

389
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:57,120
Speaker 2: and from civilian from military to civilian.

390
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Speaker 1: Life, what was that like? And was bump? Because I

391
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 1: did the eight years.

392
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Speaker 2: And when I laughed, you know, there was big holes

393
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 2: whenever I laughed, But you did about twenty six years.

394
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Speaker 1: So how did you how did you.

395
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Speaker 2: Find that transition? And the second part of the question

396
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Speaker 2: is what do you still well.

397
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Speaker 3: They answered, it both is the same thing, and I'm

398
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 3: sure it's the same for you. It's it's the people.

399
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 3: It's very much a cliche, but clichees are often that

400
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 3: way because they're true. I mean, when the people that

401
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 3: you lived and worked with and sacrificed with every day,

402
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 3: you just got to a level of camaraderie that you

403
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 3: don't see. I mean, you see it somewhere. I'm working

404
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 3: with a company out here in California right now that

405
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 3: has very a great culture and so forth, but generally speaking,

406
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 3: you don't have the same out there, the same sort

407
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 3: of you know, commitment to each other and all of

408
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 3: that was the biggest The biggest change for me was

409
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 3: you know, giving leaving that team spirit if you will.

410
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 1: And and where do you think that?

411
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,920
Speaker 2: Because I've often thought about this, like where does that

412
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 2: come from?

413
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 1: Is it the overall military culture? And uh?

414
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 2: And and I mean I think it's elements of it, right,

415
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:30,479
Speaker 2: the overall military culture, the very strong connection to purpose

416
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 2: and me it ship, but also I think living through

417
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:42,719
Speaker 2: shared adversity, because it's in those situations you kind of

418
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 2: see into the soul.

419
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: Of your appo, don't you.

420
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Speaker 2: And when you're in those dangerous life threatening situations or

421
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 2: even not even life threatening, but just where you have

422
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 2: to go to a level of yourself that you didn't

423
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 2: know existed.

424
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Speaker 1: I think it's in business. There's a lot of layers

425
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,679
Speaker 1: of the onion I find. Uh.

426
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 2: And then you know, when you go through those really

427
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 2: tough experiences, you see into the other person's soul and

428
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 2: that creates that deep, deep, deep.

429
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 3: It's the shared sacrifice, it's the it's the importance of

430
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 3: the mission. Uh. And it's you know and like and

431
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,959
Speaker 3: does while of course you go through some great adversity together,

432
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 3: it really bonds you. But a lot of it is just, hey,

433
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,399
Speaker 3: this is a shitty situation and we're all in it

434
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,879
Speaker 3: together and let's and let's make the best of it.

435
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 3: And uh and out of that comes yeah, that that

436
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:44,440
Speaker 3: bonding and uh uh yeah, it's it's very powerful, no

437
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 3: question about it.

438
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. So what and so you so you transition, deny.

439
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 2: You are a high level coaching consultant for teams and

440
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 2: particularly around building high performance teams.

441
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 1: So you wrote a book on it, I trust leadership.

442
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 1: So what motivated you to write the book?

443
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 3: Well, when I left active duty, I was living in

444
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 3: the Boston area, and as I would meet people, I

445
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,360
Speaker 3: would and they found out a little bit about my background.

446
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 3: I would get lots of questions about how did we train,

447
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 3: how do we lead, how do we organize? And then

448
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 3: I was getting invited to speak, and so initially because

449
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 3: they were actually paying me money. As my daughters would say,

450
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 3: they're paying you to tell stories, Dad, So.

451
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's my life.

452
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 3: So because they were paying me money, I wanted to,

453
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 3: you know, give them value. So so I've tried to

454
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 3: give them twenty six years of leadership lessons in an hour.

455
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 3: And while they loved the photos and the videos and

456
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 3: the stories, I really felt like it was a mile

457
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 3: wide and an inch deep, and a lot of it

458
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 3: was stuff that, you know, I mean, these universal principles

459
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 3: that they could get it just about anywhere else. Right.

460
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 3: So I had lunch with a friend of mine who

461
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 3: was a senior executive at Wells Fargo Bank, and he

462
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 3: said to me, he said, you know, I've been to

463
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:20,719
Speaker 3: hundreds of these keynote presentations, and I tell you, the

464
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 3: ones that are really good are the ones that when

465
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 3: I walk out I'm thinking differently than when I walked in.

466
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 3: So that forced me to think about Okay, what is

467
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 3: it about my experience that I can share that maybe

468
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 3: they're not hearing anywhere else or certainly not necessarily hearing

469
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 3: it from from the perspective that I'm going to share it.

470
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 3: And that's when I came upon, Okay, the one thing

471
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 3: that we all took for granted. I'm sure, as we've

472
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 3: been talking today, very much the same for you. Anytime

473
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 3: you're in a high performing organization, the one thing they

474
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 3: a all have in common is you Trust is not

475
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 3: something that's just nice to have. It's not just something

476
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 3: that hey, you put you put good people together and

477
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 3: you're gonna have it. I mean, we can see lots

478
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 3: of sports teams where that's not the case, right and so,

479
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 3: And in my experience, every high performance team I was on,

480
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 3: whether it was a fighter squadron in combat or top

481
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 3: Gun or the Blue Angels, trust wasn't something that was

482
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 3: just nice to have. It wasn't some sort of hr initiative.

483
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 3: It was a strategic imperative. I mean, we recruited for trustworthiness,

484
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 3: We trained to build it every day. If you had it,

485
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 3: you got rewarded and promoted. And if you lost it

486
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 3: and you couldn't get it back, quickly you were either

487
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 3: sidelined or you were gone because we could not afford

488
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 3: as I'm sure as you described in your helicopter you know,

489
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 3: you had to really trust the other three guys in

490
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 3: your crew. And so I just you know, share with

491
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 3: people what were the things that we had to do

492
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 3: to build a really high level of trust. And you

493
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,959
Speaker 3: know it's not rocket science, but but it's work and

494
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 3: you you have to, you know, proactively do it because

495
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 3: too many organizations don't really think about trust until it's

496
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 3: broken or gone and then they're struggling.

497
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and then then there's there's big issues, isn't there.

498
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 2: I mean I run some high performance team stuff. I

499
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 2: use pat nan Chionese model.

500
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: I'm not sure here for many.

501
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 2: Of us that you probably are, but but the bottom

502
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 2: of that bag is trust foundation right at the bottom.

503
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:47,959
Speaker 2: And it's that and it's it's not predictive trust, you know,

504
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 2: which is you know, if I've been working with someone

505
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 2: for years, I kind of know what they're going to do,

506
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 2: so I've got.

507
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: That level of trust.

508
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 2: It's the deeper level of trust based on vulnerability and

509
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 2: openness to share your fears, your failures, your apprehend and

510
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 2: and and actually that that's what I was talking about

511
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 2: earlier on when you go through that adversity or the

512
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 2: hard the hard training, we were owned the pumpany you

513
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 2: see under the levels of the onion and we get.

514
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: That deeper trust. And I think that's his real In.

515
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 3: My book, I described three levels of trust, and I

516
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 3: talk about you know, when I got to the Blue Angels,

517
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 3: I had much more flight time, but I didn't a

518
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 3: Blue Angel time, as I'd said, So I was at

519
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 3: trust one point oh. And this is sort of your

520
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 3: garden variety trust. And you know, you hire somebody because

521
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 3: they've been to the right schools or they've had done

522
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 3: the right job or whatever it might be. And you know,

523
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 3: you trust them to show up and you know, do

524
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 3: their do their job and then trust two point oh.

525
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 3: And this was after I worked.

526
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 2: So George, can I just am clarify is that trust

527
00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 2: one point oh?

528
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 1: Based on their perceip mostly you know.

529
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 3: I'll give you a really mundane example. I mean, you're

530
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 3: driving down the highway and based on the guy coming

531
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 3: the other way, has you know, done what was necessary

532
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 3: to get a driver's license, you trust that they're going

533
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 3: to stay on their side of the line, right so

534
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 3: it's it's what I call you your garden variety trust, right,

535
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 3: And my team said, look, boss, just fly your jets

536
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 3: safely and we're gonna we're going to show you in

537
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 3: our training. We're together, we're going to become Blue Angels.

538
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 1: Right.

539
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 3: So so then I kept working, working, and I got

540
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 3: to trust what I call trust two point zero. And

541
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 3: this is where we live most of our relationships. And

542
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 3: this is what it's conditional trust. Right. If you do

543
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 3: A and B, I'll trust you with C. Or it's

544
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 3: selective trust. I'll trust you here, but I'm not trusting

545
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 3: you over here, right, And it feels like a contract

546
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 3: sort of. In fact, you know, that's why we have contracts,

547
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 3: is because we're trying to raise the level artificially of trust.

548
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 3: Everybody knows what's expected and if you don't do it,

549
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 3: here's what's going to happen. Right, So you artificially mitigate

550
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 3: the risk as best you can so that you can

551
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 3: get a deal done. And so I kept working, working, working,

552
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 3: until finally when we came out of winter training and

553
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:33,800
Speaker 3: we started doing Blue Angel air shows. I had invested

554
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 3: in my teammates and they and me to the point

555
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 3: that we said to each other. I trust you, period.

556
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 3: And this is where the magic happens. Right, this is

557
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,879
Speaker 3: this feels like a covenant. If trust two point zero

558
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 3: is a contract, trust three point zero is a covenant.

559
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 3: And that's when you get to the point where you

560
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 3: know there's no hesitation, and that's when you can really

561
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,800
Speaker 3: move quickly. You can be very agile, you can adapt.

562
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 3: The resilience goes way up, productivity goes way up, quality

563
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 3: goes up. Everything does right if you make those investments. Unfortunately,

564
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 3: too often organizations and teams aren't willing to devote the

565
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 3: time and the effort consistently in order to achieve that

566
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 3: level and maintain it.

567
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 2: So give us one or two things that a leader

568
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 2: could do to tick up the level of trust in

569
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,800
Speaker 2: their team, and I'm imagining there would be a reason

570
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 2: amount of transfer to trust in relationships.

571
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,439
Speaker 3: Well if this works at home, yeah as well. And

572
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 3: because it's universal and a couple of things that to

573
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 3: be aware of. I mean, you know, trust can't be bought,

574
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 3: it can't be expected, it can't be demanded, it can't

575
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 3: be coerced. It's a gift, and it's a gift that

576
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,879
Speaker 3: is give And whenever you have behaved in a way

577
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 3: a trustworthy manner that the other person is willing to

578
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 3: give it. And so you know, I talk about five

579
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,720
Speaker 3: things that I had to do in order to earn

580
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 3: this unconditional trust in my wingman, and they with me, right,

581
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 3: and I'll go through them very quickly, and then you

582
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 3: can drill down into whatever strikes your fancy. And you

583
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 3: have to pay attention to all five. If you drop

584
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 3: one out, we were going to face an issue that

585
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 3: we would have to ultimately work on. But the good

586
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 3: news is for each one of them, it reinforces the

587
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 3: other four so that there was an upward spiral of

588
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,880
Speaker 3: trust and confidence. Right so here very quickly, and for

589
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 3: each one there was a question that my team was

590
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 3: asking about me every day, and depending upon the answer

591
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 3: they discerned, they would make a judgment about my trustworthiness.

592
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 3: I believe these are the same five questions your listeners

593
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 3: are being asked by their people in their lives, whether

594
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 3: professionally or personally, either consciously or unconsciously. So here we go.

595
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 3: The first one is character, and the question was simply,

596
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 3: do you walk your talk? Do you live up to

597
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 3: your responsibilities? Do you keep your promises? Do you own

598
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 3: you know, whatever, do you live our shared core values,

599
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 3: and for us in the Navy and Marine Corps, it

600
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 3: was honor, courage, and commitment. And my team was judging

601
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,879
Speaker 3: my character based on to what degree did I live

602
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 3: up to those those core values and our standards that

603
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 3: we had as a team for excellence, and we had

604
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 3: lots of you know, norms that the team had developed

605
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:49,719
Speaker 3: over the years. So that was a first one. The

606
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:54,320
Speaker 3: second one was commitment. Now, my team was absolutely certain

607
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 3: that I would show up to lead them with a

608
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 3: smile on my face when the sun was shining and

609
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 3: the sky was blue and the air was smooth. But

610
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 3: they knew that during our time together we were gonna

611
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 3: have to go through some storms, because that's sort of

612
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 3: how life is, right you're either in a storm now,

613
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 3: or you just came out of a storm, or look out,

614
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 3: you're getting ready to go into the next one exactly.

615
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 3: So what they wanted to know was, are you gonna

616
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 3: be with us when the going gets rough? I mean,

617
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 3: are you gonna Are you gonna show up and play

618
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 3: your a game when we're in the storm and be

619
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 3: at your best leader and lead us to victory on

620
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 3: the other side, Because if you're just gonna show up

621
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 3: and take names, cass, blame ce ya, forget about it.

622
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 3: We want you to be the best leader you can be.

623
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 3: And oh, by the way, when we get down to

624
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 3: a moment of truth where you have to make a

625
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:58,879
Speaker 3: choice between the team's interest or your interest, which one

626
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 3: are you gonna pick? That's what they want to know, right,

627
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:06,839
Speaker 3: So that's commitment. The third one is competence. Now, it's

628
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:11,360
Speaker 3: absolutely important to be trusted, particularly in your professional life,

629
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 3: that you have to be very good at what you do,

630
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 3: no question about it, right. But I put a third

631
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,359
Speaker 3: here for a reason because I believe if you don't

632
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 3: get the first two, the third one doesn't matter. If

633
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 3: a person doesn't walk their talk or be all in,

634
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 3: then you know, forget about it. But if they do

635
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 3: walk their talk, walk our talk, live our values, and

636
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 3: they are all in, we can teach them. I mean,

637
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 3: they have to have a certain amount of talent and skill,

638
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:48,800
Speaker 3: but we would trade off a percentage of some amount

639
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 3: of skill in order to make sure we got the

640
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 3: first two. It wasn't necessarily the ace of the base

641
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 3: who became the blue Angel. It was the guy who

642
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 3: could who was you know, had great integrity, total commitment

643
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 3: to the mission, and would come to work every day

644
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 3: and accept constant professional, constructive criticism in the debrief and

645
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 3: not get discouraged, distracted, or let his ego get in

646
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 3: the way. So every day, as I walked into for

647
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,319
Speaker 3: a pre flight briefing and I would sit down at

648
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 3: the conference table and I would look around at my

649
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 3: wingman gathered around, I could see the third question in

650
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 3: their eyes, and the question was are you good enough

651
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 3: to be our leader today? Are you better than you

652
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 3: were yesterday, but not as good as you're going to

653
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 3: be tomorrow because we don't want to stay here. You

654
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 3: want to keep getting better and better. By definition, we

655
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 3: as a team can't get better if you don't get better.

656
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 3: So that was a third question. Then the fourth one

657
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 3: is the one I think most leaders in this modern

658
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 3: age have dropped off their radar. And that's connection you see.

659
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 3: By the middle of the season, I could do just

660
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,720
Speaker 3: about anything I wanted with my jet, and my guys

661
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 3: would follow me. If I needed to speed the role

662
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 3: of the formation to stay under the clouds, I could

663
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,360
Speaker 3: do it. If I needed to pull harder at the

664
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 3: bottom of a loop to avoid a ridge line, I

665
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,359
Speaker 3: could do it. If I needed to tighten the turn

666
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,879
Speaker 3: with more g around a skyscraper, I could do it

667
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 3: because I had invested in my wingman such that they

668
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 3: believed I knew what I was asking them to do

669
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 3: out there as I changed the trajectory. Right. But if

670
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 3: for a minute they doubted that I understood what I

671
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 3: was asking them to do, that's when you get hesitation, separation, disengagement. Right.

672
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 3: So the question, and this applied just as much on

673
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 3: the ground as it did in the air with the

674
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 3: sailors and marines on the team, and the question was

675
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 3: do they believe you understand them? Which is a different

676
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 3: question than do I believe I understand them? Because what

677
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 3: I believe is interesting but not sufficient. What matters is

678
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 3: what do they believe? And when they believe that you

679
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 3: get them, that you understand their concerns, their challenges, what

680
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 3: you're asking them to do, what their hopes, their goals are,

681
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 3: and that whenever you're making the tough decisions, you're taking

682
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 3: them into account. When they believe you do that, even

683
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:35,319
Speaker 3: if the decision doesn't go their way, they'll join up

684
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 3: and come along. But if they don't. If they then

685
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 3: then you always have friction. And challenges, and it's like

686
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 3: it's like aerodynamic drag, you know, on the on the airplane,

687
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 3: you know, So that's that's connection. And then the last

688
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:55,840
Speaker 3: one quickly is communication. If connection is do they believe

689
00:42:55,920 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 3: I understand them? Then communication is do they understand me

690
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 3: and my clear, concise, consistent and direct in my transmissions?

691
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 3: And are they receiving the messages that I intended when

692
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 3: I sent it? Right? And you saw that, you know,

693
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 3: in aviation, we have very specific protocols to make sure

694
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:21,280
Speaker 3: that there's no misunderstanding on the radios when you're assigned

695
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 3: a heading or an altitude or whatelse. And we need

696
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:29,720
Speaker 3: to implement those types of feedback in our communication strategies

697
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 3: on the ground, in our work, and in our life

698
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 3: right because the biggest challenge with communication for leaders is

699
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:44,279
Speaker 3: the presumption that it's occurred. I sent the email. I

700
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 3: sent the email, they get it. I gave the talk,

701
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 3: they get it. I had the one on one, she

702
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 3: gets it. They don't get it, at least not yet,

703
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 3: because they aren't as close to it as you are, right,

704
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 3: And I like to say, how many times do you

705
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,359
Speaker 3: have to hear a new song before you get the lid? Ricks.

706
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:06,440
Speaker 3: So we have to transmit consistently in a variety of

707
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:12,439
Speaker 3: forms until until the audience gets the message. Right.

708
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 2: So that'll say you can never over communicate clarity.

709
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:20,840
Speaker 3: And you know you've done it when they start making

710
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 3: fun of you, right, Okay, yeah, I think they got

711
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 3: it now. Yeah.

712
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 2: Look I love that that the character, commitment, competence, connection communication.

713
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:36,280
Speaker 1: So is that this is that a hierarchy?

714
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 3: Hierarchy?

715
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and and and and I see why you have

716
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 2: put character first because I mean people can just that

717
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:52,879
Speaker 2: they can they can smell it at fifty pieces if

718
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 2: you're not authentic, right, that they really do and and

719
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 2: and that is what and you know what reminds me

720
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 2: there's a couple of ones tied in together, character and commitment.

721
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:09,359
Speaker 2: I remember my first boss, Commander Jock Alexander, and people

722
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 2: would have walked over broken glass for him.

723
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:12,839
Speaker 1: But we we had there.

724
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:14,959
Speaker 2: There was a big night in the naval fleet, Fleet

725
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 2: of our Arms called Taranto Knight, and it celebrated the

726
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 2: Battle of Toronto when our our our squadron went in

727
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:23,360
Speaker 2: and sunk to half the Italian fleet.

728
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 1: Right.

729
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:28,799
Speaker 2: And so the tradition is that that you know, there's

730
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 2: all there's the whole mess dinner, and there's there's there's

731
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,880
Speaker 2: fires and stuff like that, and and and and we

732
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,399
Speaker 2: we tend to burn a piano at the end of it, right,

733
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 2: and so that's typical stuff, right.

734
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 1: But we were having it was a big.

735
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 2: Do and there was there was an admiral coming and

736
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:54,279
Speaker 2: things like that, and the commander of the bas who

737
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:56,800
Speaker 2: was not an er crew guy, he was a fish

738
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 2: head right as we call him. I don't know if

739
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 2: you call the same and in the States, but he

740
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:07,399
Speaker 2: for being off, I burned the piano and all their

741
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 2: crew were like, yeah. So what we did instead was

742
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 2: we burned a car. We didn't burn a piano. We

743
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 2: got one of the guy's old cars, all chipped in,

744
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 2: bought it off of and burnt the car. And the

745
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:25,439
Speaker 2: next day the commander of the base went ballistic, made

746
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 2: us all and stand on the paray ground in our

747
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 2: dress uniforms and started giving us a bollocking about burning

748
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 2: the car. And the boss of the squadron, Jock Alexander,

749
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 2: stepped forward and said, sir.

750
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 1: I just need to interject. I told him they could

751
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:44,320
Speaker 1: burn the car.

752
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:49,719
Speaker 2: And the commander went in my office and he never

753
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:53,279
Speaker 2: told us that we could burn the car right, he

754
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 2: took the hit for us, and geez did we get

755
00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:00,359
Speaker 2: a bullocking afterwards? But I tell you what, like that

756
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:04,840
Speaker 2: is an example of that character and commit absolute And

757
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 2: you know.

758
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 3: One thing I'd like to share about the character piece

759
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:13,439
Speaker 3: is that you know, no matter how self aware you are,

760
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 3: no matter how high your EQ is, you can't know

761
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 3: how you're coming across to everybody else in the organization

762
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 3: because because you just can't. First of all, you're not them,

763
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 3: and second of all, you can't be everywhere all the time.

764
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:35,959
Speaker 3: And so sometimes leaders are doing the they think they're

765
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:41,280
Speaker 3: doing the right thing, but they for whatever reason, members

766
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 3: of the team are receiving a different message. And some

767
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,839
Speaker 3: of that occurs, you know, like for example, in communication,

768
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 3: if you're not communicating, if there's a if there's a

769
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,760
Speaker 3: gap in communication, people are going to fill the gap

770
00:47:55,080 --> 00:48:00,360
Speaker 3: with stories or perceptions or whatever. Right. So I share with.

771
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, the brand, the brand is a prediction machine. And

772
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 2: if people don't know.

773
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 3: The story makers, right, we make stories all the time.

774
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 3: So I share with leaders that you need to have

775
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 3: truth tellers in your organization, people that you trust who

776
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 3: will bring you the truth to let you know they

777
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:24,839
Speaker 3: they understand what you're trying to do. They understand what

778
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 3: your values are, and you trust them to come tell

779
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:33,800
Speaker 3: you whenever. The perception out there is that you aren't

780
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:39,240
Speaker 3: walking your talk or for whatever. And perception isn't always reality,

781
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 3: but that's what they're thinking, right. So, and here's the challenge. Though, Yes,

782
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:49,919
Speaker 3: you authorize somebody to bring you the truth, they'll bring

783
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 3: it once and depending upon how you react to the truth,

784
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 3: you may never see it again. So so we as leaders,

785
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:02,280
Speaker 3: we have to be wise enough that, however the truth

786
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 3: shows up, that we are willing to look at it

787
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 3: and objectively evaluate what is here that I need to

788
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:14,720
Speaker 3: act on. Maybe nothing, but maybe there's some things here.

789
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:19,359
Speaker 3: And let me ask you, who do you think, other

790
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 3: than your spouse and your children are the best people

791
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:25,240
Speaker 3: to bring you the truth?

792
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:30,399
Speaker 1: Other than your spouse, See, I was going to say

793
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 1: your children and.

794
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 2: The best people to bring you the truth probably the

795
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 2: people that you're not that aligned, people that don't like.

796
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:45,360
Speaker 3: You very much because they don't care how you feel

797
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:45,759
Speaker 3: about it.

798
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:52,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, And unfortunately they're going to wrap it up, you know,

799
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 4: with a bunch of drama and stuff, and they're gonna

800
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 4: stick it at you, right and so we have to

801
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:01,719
Speaker 4: be smart enough when that happened to unpack it and.

802
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 3: See is there a kernel of truth in there somewhere

803
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 3: or is it just rubbish? I don't know, but but

804
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:11,799
Speaker 3: we have to at least be smart enough to do

805
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:13,920
Speaker 3: that dissection.

806
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 1: That that actually brings me.

807
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 2: That's a great point, actually, George, And it brings me

808
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:22,840
Speaker 2: to something else. And that often I talk about because

809
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 2: often when we get an idea, and particularly as leaders,

810
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:30,879
Speaker 2: and we go and we seek sounding boards, and we

811
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 2: seek people who are similar to us and have similar

812
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:37,879
Speaker 2: thinking to us, and we're kind of bouncing it off

813
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:40,320
Speaker 2: the echo chamber. And I always say to people, go

814
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:44,359
Speaker 2: and pick the person who is stormy and prickly and

815
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:46,479
Speaker 2: who you've got a different point of view and lots

816
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 2: of things, and then bounce it off them, because then

817
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 2: you'll get to.

818
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:51,840
Speaker 3: The accltes, you'll get a real test.

819
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 2: But that that that requires and parking a little bit

820
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 2: of your ego, doesn't it? So sodge tell us and

821
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:07,959
Speaker 2: in environments where trust has been eroded, because I will

822
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 2: often talk about this, like you can build trust, and

823
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 2: build trust and build trust, and then if that trust

824
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 2: is broken, the whole house of cards kind of tumbling down, right,

825
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:22,839
Speaker 2: And you know, you can be in a deep relationship

826
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 2: with somebody personal and the trust goes and just everything's gone.

827
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 2: So in that we're trust has been eroded. And maybe

828
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:34,239
Speaker 2: pick maybe there might be two scenarios. Trust has been

829
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:37,799
Speaker 2: eroded because you've done something as a leader, or then

830
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 2: you go into a second scenario would be going into

831
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:45,840
Speaker 2: a new organization where trust was eroded because of the

832
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:49,279
Speaker 2: leader and the culture just stinks because of that.

833
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 1: So what could leaders do in those two different.

834
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 3: In the first one, you know Stephen Covey who wrote

835
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 3: the Seven Habits of highly vin Habits, I think he

836
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 3: has it right in that you can't talk your way

837
00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:09,879
Speaker 3: out of something that you acted your way into, right,

838
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 3: So so you know step number one is to apologize

839
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 3: in an authentic manner, but that isn't that doesn't do

840
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 3: it right. That's just gets you into the into the room, right.

841
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 3: And then over time you have to behave in a

842
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:31,600
Speaker 3: trustworthy manner such that you hope that the people will

843
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:35,440
Speaker 3: again regain trust in you. But you don't get to

844
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:39,840
Speaker 3: choose right and and depending and and you know, sometimes

845
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:44,359
Speaker 3: when you're betrayed by somebody, the deeper the trust that

846
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 3: you that you had together, the betrayal hurts more, right,

847
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 3: so you may not get it back, you know, but yeah,

848
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:55,399
Speaker 3: you can't worry about that. You have to just do

849
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:57,800
Speaker 3: your best and you have to hope that they will.

850
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:02,440
Speaker 3: And generally speaking, people are pretty forgiving. I mean, if

851
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:07,279
Speaker 3: you own it and you're sincere and then you communicate

852
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:11,280
Speaker 3: that sincerity in your behavior over a period of time,

853
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 3: you know, people are pretty forgiving. So that would be

854
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 3: my answer to the first scenario and the second scenario

855
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:24,719
Speaker 3: where you're walking into an organization that has very as

856
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 3: the trust has been broken, right then that I think you,

857
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:34,239
Speaker 3: first of all, don't dwell on the past. You want

858
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:37,839
Speaker 3: to get them beyond that. But the challenge is is

859
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 3: that there's a lot of emotional inertia. And I've been

860
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:46,320
Speaker 3: involved in doing you know, some turnarounds with an organizations

861
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 3: that had the trust had been broken, and I was

862
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 3: constantly amazed at how long people held onto the feelings

863
00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 3: of betrayal, even though that leadership team was gone, but

864
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 3: they kept holding onto it and holding on to it. Right,

865
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 3: So you have to you have to lead by example,

866
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:11,799
Speaker 3: and you have to you know, you know, employ those

867
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:15,319
Speaker 3: five principles of being you know, walking your talk and

868
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 3: being transparent and bring in it every day and trying

869
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:22,879
Speaker 3: to you know, here's what who here's who we are,

870
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 3: Here's what we stand for, and hopefully, you know, you

871
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 3: can turn it around. But you know, there were some

872
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 3: people in this one organization I have in mind where

873
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 3: they couldn't get over it. So at some point they

874
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 3: were no longer a good fit for our organization and

875
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:42,319
Speaker 3: we needed to move them on. Unfortunately, they were a

876
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:46,799
Speaker 3: casualty of all of that. But you do your best, and.

877
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:52,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, some people can can become you know, like some

878
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:56,280
Speaker 2: people have learned helplessness. And you know that old classic

879
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:58,360
Speaker 2: experience with the animals where they have them and the

880
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:01,480
Speaker 2: kids and there's an electric shop and they keep getting

881
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:03,680
Speaker 2: shocked and in they stop, and they take away the

882
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:06,719
Speaker 2: sides of the cage, and still the animal doesn't try

883
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:09,400
Speaker 2: to get out of that learned helplessness. And I think

884
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 2: there can be that that that's.

885
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:15,000
Speaker 1: Sort of a learned.

886
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:20,000
Speaker 2: Bad egg attitude, right, just because of what had happened.

887
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 2: But is there a value in going into an organization

888
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:28,360
Speaker 2: where you know that there has been previous poor leadership?

889
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 2: Is their value in getting the people together and letting

890
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 2: them vent and letting them.

891
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:37,760
Speaker 1: Be heard and go through a cathartic process and take

892
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 1: on and their point of view and then explicitly act

893
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:46,279
Speaker 1: early on some of their things so that they actually go, Hey,

894
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:47,359
Speaker 1: this person.

895
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 3: I think that you know I mentioned connection. You want

896
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:54,040
Speaker 3: them to believe that you understand what they went through

897
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:55,480
Speaker 3: right as best you can.

898
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 1: And and so.

899
00:55:57,040 --> 00:56:01,560
Speaker 3: I think it's very helpful to to open up to

900
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:05,760
Speaker 3: that and to be willing to listen. And but then

901
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:10,799
Speaker 3: you know, you better do something right and and you

902
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:13,600
Speaker 3: may or may not agree with what they think is

903
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 3: the path forward, but you need to take action. And

904
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:23,680
Speaker 3: if you're not going to respond directly to what they

905
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:27,759
Speaker 3: suggested or recommended, then you explain why and you just

906
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 3: you just be open with them. Look, I know you

907
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:33,040
Speaker 3: wanted you thought we should go this way, but look,

908
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:37,160
Speaker 3: we're going to go this way because of this. And

909
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:40,239
Speaker 3: and then they need to be big enough to appreciate

910
00:56:40,239 --> 00:56:42,200
Speaker 3: the fact that you were honest with them and that

911
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:47,440
Speaker 3: you know, you you kept them in the loop and

912
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:48,960
Speaker 3: let them know right.

913
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, now see seege advice as all of this

914
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:58,160
Speaker 2: has been seedge advice George So and so for people

915
00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 2: who want to get your birth. I think leaders aspiring leaders,

916
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:06,480
Speaker 2: and it actually sounds to me like anybody who wants

917
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:11,200
Speaker 2: to have good relationships in their personal life because that

918
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:13,080
Speaker 2: that trust, high trust.

919
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:14,800
Speaker 1: And you know, you could.

920
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 2: Almost take out the word leadership and put high trust

921
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:22,280
Speaker 2: relationships and write a new book, right, And so where

922
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:25,320
Speaker 2: can they go with ticket? It's available in all good bookstores.

923
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 2: The name I believe it's high trust Leadership Building, and it's.

924
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 3: Available Amazon and Barnes and Noble, and that's where they.

925
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:38,600
Speaker 1: All bookstores, as we say, all good bookstores.

926
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:42,960
Speaker 2: And then if people, if organizations want to book you

927
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:45,200
Speaker 2: to come in and talk to their team to do

928
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:46,680
Speaker 2: some work with their leaders.

929
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:54,800
Speaker 3: And my website is George Doom dot com and imagine

930
00:57:54,800 --> 00:58:01,200
Speaker 3: that going on, so they can see you what it's about,

931
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:04,480
Speaker 3: and it can easily contact me. And I'd love to

932
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 3: come in and help out because that's what that's what

933
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:10,040
Speaker 3: I'm trying to do. That's my mission now after after

934
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:12,800
Speaker 3: the military, is to help companies thrive.

935
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:16,720
Speaker 1: And we all need we all need another mission to

936
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:17,440
Speaker 1: do with George.

937
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:20,600
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I'm going to ask you one last question

938
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:25,760
Speaker 2: unrelated to this. Every time I'm in the States, I

939
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:30,160
Speaker 2: am blown away by the level of respect given to

940
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 2: current and past military personnel, right, and you know, it's

941
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 2: boarding on aircrafts.

942
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:37,840
Speaker 1: You know.

943
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:40,760
Speaker 2: I've been in talks for the somebody's been in the military,

944
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:42,520
Speaker 2: everybody stands up and applauds them.

945
00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:45,720
Speaker 1: It's just and it's mind boggling for me.

946
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:49,400
Speaker 2: And having been in the British military and now being

947
00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:52,200
Speaker 2: in Australia and have worked with the Australian military, you

948
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 2: do not see that at all in in Britain and

949
00:58:56,920 --> 00:58:58,680
Speaker 2: in the in in Australia.

950
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:02,120
Speaker 1: Where does that come from? Do you know where that?

951
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 3: You know, I'm not really sure. It's a wonderful question.

952
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:10,280
Speaker 3: I think some of it comes from a sense of

953
00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:18,880
Speaker 3: guilt about how veterans were treated coming back from Vietnam. Yeah,

954
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:22,400
Speaker 3: they were really treated badly and so forth, and I

955
00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:26,760
Speaker 3: think the American public and now once the norm is set,

956
00:59:26,920 --> 00:59:29,800
Speaker 3: it just keeps being passed down, you know. So I

957
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 3: think that is the genesis of it, because, as I

958
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:35,480
Speaker 3: mentioned back at the beginning of this conversation, you know,

959
00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:38,120
Speaker 3: when I was growing up during Vietnam, I mean, nobody

960
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:42,200
Speaker 3: wanted to go in the military. But we we bounced

961
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:46,919
Speaker 3: back from that. And it's interesting because you know, it's

962
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:50,240
Speaker 3: a very low percentage of our population, or actually have

963
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:54,240
Speaker 3: served used to be many more. And yeah, you know,

964
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:56,040
Speaker 3: and that's a little bit of a challenge for us.

965
00:59:56,480 --> 01:00:00,840
Speaker 3: Also is to make sure the American pusably continues to

966
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:04,240
Speaker 3: remain connected to the amazing work that's being done by

967
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:09,280
Speaker 3: other men and women in uniform.

968
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:12,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, George, And this has been awesome.

969
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:15,720
Speaker 2: Thank you for your time, and I wish you all

970
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:18,240
Speaker 2: the best of luck alow you won't need it in your.

971
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:21,360
Speaker 3: Thanks very much, my pleasure. I really enjoyed it, great conversation.