1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: This podcast was recorded on the land of the Gatigel 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: people of the Eur Nation. 3 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to the Real Story with Joe Hildebrand. 4 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 2: And it is another blockbuster global episode of the show 5 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:16,279 Speaker 2: for you. It is World War three, but not quite 6 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:20,759 Speaker 2: but maybe all over again. Has Donald Trump saved the 7 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 2: planet from one of the three World War threes that 8 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 2: we could possibly be facing. Well, we're going to be 9 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 2: speaking to a Ukraine expert to find out whether or 10 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 2: not we are on the verge of a nuclear apocalypse 11 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 2: or if Donald Trump has in fact saved the day. 12 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 2: Plus could you be deported for being anti Semitic? Should 13 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 2: you be deported for being anti semitic? Could be anti semitic? 14 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 2: Actually ban you from getting Australian citizenship? Well that is 15 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 2: what is on the table under a new proposal from 16 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 2: Peter Dutton and the Coalition. And I've got to say 17 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 2: I think this raises more questions than and answers. Bill 18 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 2: go through that very surely as well. And would you 19 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 2: pay a million dollars for a study on decolonizing breastfeeding? 20 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 2: Some people would say you'd have to be a real 21 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 2: sucker to do that, But guess who has the Australian government. 22 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:16,759 Speaker 2: All that and more coming up First up this week, 23 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 2: it is the gift that keeps on giving, even though 24 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,320 Speaker 2: I'm not quite sure what that gift is. And this 25 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 2: is the proposal by Peter Dutton and the Coalition to 26 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 2: have a test for Australian citizenship that includes whether or 27 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 2: not your anti Semitic along with a possible referendum on 28 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 2: whether or not citizens should be able to be deported 29 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 2: by the Parliament if they hold certain bad views or 30 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 2: do certain bad things. But that referendum may not happen, 31 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 2: that's just possible. But the proposal to have an anti 32 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 2: Semitism test for the citizenship test is definitely on the table. Apparently, 33 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 2: did everyone get that fantastic? This is the story that 34 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 2: appeared on the front page of the Sydney Morning Herald 35 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 2: this week. Migrants applying for Australian passports under a Coalition 36 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 2: government will be quizzed about their attitudes towards Jewish people 37 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 2: as part of Opposition leader Peter Dutton's citizenship crackdown that 38 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 2: includes a possible deportation referendum. Now, there is just so 39 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 2: much to unpack in that sentence alone. Firstly, the deportation referendum, 40 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 2: which may or may not be happening. Two different senior 41 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 2: Coaltion figures seem to be saying two different things about it. 42 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 2: One says, oh, yes, yeah, we could do that, and 43 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 2: the other one says, oh no, there absolutely no plans 44 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 2: to do that whatsoever. It follows Italy having a referendum 45 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 2: on whether or not you have to wait five or 46 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 2: ten years before applying for citizenship in that country. In 47 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,799 Speaker 2: this case, it would probably look more like whether or 48 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 2: not dual citizenship holders could be deported because you have 49 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 2: to have a second citizenship. You can't sort of deport 50 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 2: someone to oblivion. You can't leave them stateless, can't deport 51 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 2: them to nowhere. So a dual citizenship holder who had, 52 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 2: you know, an Australian citizenship plus maybe citizenship of you know, 53 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 2: a Muslim country or a majority Muslim country, if they 54 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:19,079 Speaker 2: held anti Semitic views or were deemed to be unacceptable 55 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,239 Speaker 2: of bad character or whatever, you could deport them back 56 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 2: to that other country where they could live happily ever after, 57 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 2: but not in Australia. Very on brand for the Coalition, 58 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 2: but also possibly not happening and possibly just a thought 59 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 2: bubble that somebody came up with. Then we see the 60 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 2: more concrete proposal that has actually been put forward, which 61 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 2: has been clearly dropped deliberately to the Citney Morning Here. 62 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 2: I'm not going to explain a bit about that very 63 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 2: shortly as well, and the age for our Melbourne listeners 64 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 2: at sister Paper. Don't want to be too Sydney centric. 65 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 2: I know that the People's Republican Victoria does in fact 66 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 2: exist despite all the water closures. It's like Pyongyang. If 67 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 2: you can get in there, it's great anyway. So this 68 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 2: is the So there's all this sort of confusion over 69 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 2: whether or not anyone's going to be deported. There are 70 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 2: big concerns over whether Parliament should have the authority to 71 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 2: effectively override the courts and make a decision on deportation. 72 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 2: Currently the courts have to do that. Should the Parliament 73 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 2: be able to do it or the government be able 74 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 2: to do that? That is a question that has needlessly 75 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 2: say alarmed a few legal experts. But that we don't 76 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 2: even know whether that's happening or not. That seems to 77 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 2: be just a thought bubble, and indeed that has prompt 78 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 2: many in the Labor Party to say this just shows 79 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 2: the Coalition doesn't really know what it's talking about. It 80 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 2: is running around trying to sort of grasp it stuff. 81 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 2: It doesn't have a sort of coherent, cohesive plan for government. 82 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 2: And indeed, I've spoken of just speaking to a close 83 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 2: friend of mine, a Jewish friend of mine who works 84 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 2: in the media, he said, you know what I'm already in. 85 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 2: You know, the Libs just need to stop talking about 86 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 2: the Jews. Just stop talking about Jews. I'm voting for him, 87 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 2: you know, I'm Jewish Roland, but just shut up about it. 88 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 2: But it seems to be something they think. All right, 89 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 2: we're on a winner if we just keep banging this drum. 90 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 2: But let's have a look at idea of applying for 91 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 2: a passport, applying for citizenship and having to have a 92 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 2: test about your attitudes towards Jewish people. Now, if you 93 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 2: are applying for Australian citizenship, chances are you're already a 94 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 2: resident here. Chances are you're already living here or at 95 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 2: the very least extremely familiar with Australia and Australians. You 96 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 2: probably have family here and Australian culture. I'm just not 97 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 2: sure how having a test about whether you're anti Semitic 98 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 2: or not. I'm just not sure how effective that would be. Like, 99 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 2: even if you were anti Semitic, I'm pretty sure you'd 100 00:05:55,680 --> 00:06:01,160 Speaker 2: be smart enough to know what questions you were supposed 101 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 2: to answer and how. And I'm pretty sure that if 102 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 2: you did have you know, your husband or wife here, 103 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 2: or your family here, maybe your son or daughter, and 104 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 2: you're coming over from the old country. So hey, hey, 105 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 2: you see question seventeen where it says do you hate Jews? 106 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 2: Answer no? Like with that Welcome to Australia. Question one, 107 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 2: what is Donald Bradman's badging average? Okay? Question two? Do 108 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,679 Speaker 2: you think that Israel should be white from the face 109 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 2: of the planet? Hint, No, there's a multiple choice yes, yes, 110 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 2: maybe you know, see yes, as long as Benjamin net Ya, 111 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 2: who's in charge, d all of the above. Like, I 112 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 2: just don't understand what the actual practical purpose or benefit 113 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,600 Speaker 2: of that test would be. I mean, you already got 114 00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 2: you know, you've already got books telling you how to 115 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 2: game napland and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't take too 116 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 2: long for people to say, this is what you answer? 117 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 2: Just say you love everybody, all right. The other interesting thing, 118 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 2: of course, is the fact that the coalition decided to 119 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 2: drop this story to the Sydney Morning Herald and presumably 120 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 2: the Age as well, which is, you know, the kind 121 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 2: of these are the sort of more upmarket mastheads in Australia. 122 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 2: They target a sort of more inner city affluent readership base, 123 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 2: very sophisticated, very tertiary educated. And it's fair to say 124 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 2: far less pro Israel than the masthead that I work 125 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 2: for the Daily Telegraph or the News Corp tabloid mastheads 126 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 2: around the country, and indeed the Australian newspaper. And so 127 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 2: you kind of got to ask yourself. These are the 128 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 2: sort of readers and the sort of newsrooms that generally 129 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 2: sort of look down their nose at Peter Dutton and say, oh, 130 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 2: he's just bang in the drama. He's blowing the dog whistle, 131 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 2: he's a race or whatever. I mean. This is, you know, 132 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 2: a liberal once called the Sydney Morning Herald, the paper 133 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 2: that is read by our friends and written by our enemies. 134 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 2: And he's not wrong. And this is and this is 135 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 2: the thing. It's it's a you know, it's it's look, 136 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 2: it does a good job. You know, generally speaking, it's 137 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 2: very lifestyle wanky, sort of driven. There's a lot of 138 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 2: fancy lunches with cultural figures or whatever. It tries to 139 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 2: sort of steer a course down the middle. It's not 140 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 2: as bad as the Guardian, but again you would think 141 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 2: that if you were going to do something as kind 142 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:36,559 Speaker 2: of you know, good on him. If it works in 143 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 2: the election, that's fantastic. But it's sort of shamelessly kind 144 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 2: of like we're going to be even more pro Jewish, 145 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 2: more anti anti Semitic, more pro Israel than we've ever 146 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 2: been before by introducing this citizenship test. Rahrah rah, go 147 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 2: Team Australia. Look how many Australian flags I've got behind me? Booyah. 148 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 2: The last place you would plant a story like that, 149 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 2: you would think would be the ohso sophistic carded arm 150 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,559 Speaker 2: lata set that read the Sydney Morning Herald and the Age. 151 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 2: Except where do these newspapers sell the most copies? Well, 152 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 2: of course they sell them in the inner city with 153 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 2: all the granola crunching hippies, but they also sell them 154 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 2: in the affluent suburbs of Sydney, including the Eastern suburbs 155 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 2: that has probably the highest Jewish population in Australia, and 156 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 2: in the southeastern suburbs of Melbourne, which have also the 157 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 2: highest Jewish populations in Melbourne, and so clearly the Coalition 158 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 2: is talking directly to the Jewish community. It wants to 159 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 2: get this message directly out to those affluent suburbs of 160 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 2: the highest Jewish populations, so that the Jewish people, the 161 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 2: Jewish community of Australia know that the Coalition one hundred 162 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 2: and ten percent has their back. They are even more 163 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 2: pro Jewish than you thought they were. And they were 164 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 2: already very pro Jewish. And that's great, that's fine, so 165 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 2: am I, except they're already voting for you, mate, You've 166 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 2: already got that vote. I mean again. A friend of 167 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 2: mine said that his local synagogue, big synagogue in the 168 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 2: East with very liberal, you know, pro voice and all that. 169 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 2: Peter Dutton went to visit standing Ovation. You've already got 170 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 2: that cohort and now you're just trying to get him 171 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 2: even more. I know. We used to say in the 172 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 2: Labor Party vote early, vote often, but all the squares 173 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 2: started clamping down on that. Now you can only vote once, 174 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 2: so it doesn't matter how enthusiastically you vote. You can 175 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 2: only vote once and those votes are already come in 176 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 2: the Coalition's way. So it just seems a bit passing 177 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 2: strange that you would put this sort of proposal out 178 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 2: there when it's clearly just there to send a signal 179 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 2: of support and solidarity with the Jewish community, when that 180 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 2: is already something you have. And the other thing, of course, 181 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 2: is that with this and the potential you know, deportation 182 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 2: referendum and whatever it might be, someone flew tax cuts 183 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,959 Speaker 2: up the flag pole. I think Angerstal said, oh, yeah, 184 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:12,559 Speaker 2: we might have some tax cuts. Oh we might. No, 185 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,079 Speaker 2: we don't know, you know, will they or won't know. 186 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 2: We're just going to say, hey, vote for us, we 187 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 2: might give you some tax cuts, we might have a 188 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 2: referendum on deportation. And this is given a bit of 189 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 2: heart to people in the Labor Party and have a 190 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 2: lookout for this. I'm not sure if it will end 191 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 2: up being you, but I'm told that the new line 192 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 2: that is going to come out from the Labor Party 193 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 2: and or at least some members is that basically Peter 194 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 2: Dutton is doing a Forest Gump because Forest Gump famously 195 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 2: said life is like a box of chocolates. You never 196 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 2: know which one you're going to get. They said, are 197 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:51,199 Speaker 2: you sure that he's not talking about the coalition policies. 198 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 2: And of course, at the same time as all of 199 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 2: this is happening, as I reveal to you on this 200 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 2: very podcast, the Libs, Peter Dutton's own party, is doing deals, 201 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 2: having talks about doing a preference deal with the Muslim vote. 202 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 2: So at the same time it's saying I'm all in 203 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 2: with Israel, all in with the Jewish community in Australia, 204 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 2: it is doing a deal with a movement running candidates 205 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 2: which is basically there to punish the Labor Party, punish 206 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 2: the government, punish anyone for not being pro Palestine enough. 207 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 2: And these guys are doing deal. I'm told further to 208 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 2: what I already revealed, which the senior Liberal figures were 209 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 2: in talks with the candidate in Tony Burke's seat of 210 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:35,439 Speaker 2: Watson and they are both planning to put Labor last, 211 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 2: which means that Burke might actually lose his seat, and 212 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 2: then it could be a similar result in where I were, 213 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 2: depending on how the card's for. But I'm told also 214 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 2: that a senior Liberal figure in the area has been 215 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 2: walking the Muslim vote candidate around, even taking him to 216 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 2: his Maronite church in the electorate and introducing him to 217 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 2: all the Christians there. And saying, hey, this guy's a 218 00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 2: great bloke, he's fantastic. Maybe he's a great blake. I'm 219 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 2: sure he is. Whatever. But again, the Libs are doing 220 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 2: this while at the same time they're going to make 221 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 2: it conditional in the citizenship test that you show that 222 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 2: you're not anti Semitic. And now to another absolute cracker 223 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 2: of a yarn that emerged this week. This is just 224 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 2: this is a timeless classic. It is like a fine 225 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 2: wine that gets better with age, and it comes around 226 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 2: about every year, and it's a list of all the 227 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 2: absolute nutbag, crazy, unhinged research projects that academics with little 228 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 2: pet projects apply for, apply for government money for for 229 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 2: all different departments and agencies, and invariably the government just 230 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 2: hands over money to some of the just the nuttiest, craziest, 231 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 2: just loopiest. Just you'd think it was satire. And if 232 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 2: you think I'm exaggerating, just wait. And of course this 233 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 2: is part of a sway of grants for other really 234 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 2: good stuff and practical stuff the benefits, but these ones 235 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,959 Speaker 2: always sneak through the net, and that the figures are 236 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 2: just eye watering, and I'll read you a couple of them. 237 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 2: Again you think I'm exaggerating. You think it's satire. Wait 238 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 2: for this research has been given one million dollars one 239 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 2: million dollars a bit over one million dollars in fact, 240 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 2: one point oh seven million dollars from memory for a 241 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 2: project on quote unquote decolonizing breastfeeding. Yes, who knew breastfeeding 242 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 2: has been colonized. It is a program to promote quote 243 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 2: lactation care to support the initiation and maintenance of breastfeeding 244 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 2: among First Nations women. How is that decolonizing? I mean, 245 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 2: how were they doing it before colonization. I'm pretty sure 246 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 2: they were doing it the same the same way. And 247 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 2: just again, of course, we want to encourage people to breastfeed, 248 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 2: whatever the color of their skin or their background. It's 249 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 2: meant to be the healthiest way to do it. Although 250 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 2: if you can't, ladies, don't stress, You'll be right, it's okay. 251 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 2: But no, we have to decolonize it and get a 252 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 2: million dollars for that. I would have probably just called 253 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 2: it something else, just between you and Mabe. Anyway, did 254 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 2: you know, by the way, it's not just breastfeeding that's racist, 255 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 2: or maybe not breastfeeding that's racist. I'm not sure. It's 256 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 2: dentistry therefore never fear. I know this is a shock 257 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 2: to a lot of you, but don't worry. They're on 258 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 2: to it, because there is a nine hundred thousand dollars 259 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 2: grand that is being delivered to a project for anti 260 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 2: racist dentistry at the University of Adelaide. This program quote 261 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 2: aims to develop and evaluate an anti racism curriculum for 262 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 2: dental students, enhance the recruitment and well being of Aboriginal 263 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 2: and Torres Stradia under dentists, and create an oral promotion 264 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 2: training model for Aboriginal health workers. Now, all this sounds 265 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 2: kind of pretty good. Their last bit sounds pretty good. 266 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 2: Anti racism dentistry? Is it because all teeth are white? 267 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 2: I mean not mine? After a couple of nights out, 268 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 2: I got to tell you. But anyway, just why why 269 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 2: would you do this? Oh? There's a nine hundred and 270 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 2: ninety seven thousand, eight hundred and twenty five dollar program 271 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 2: to elevate the queer professional identity in primary healthcare. That's 272 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 2: thanks to the University of Queensland. There is also very 273 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 2: there's a bargain basement here one just eighteen four hundred 274 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 2: and eighty for a drag show contest for scientists. Again, 275 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 2: I love drag that's fantastic. I love a drag show. 276 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 2: But do it at the Aubrey, Do it at arc? 277 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 2: Are they even still around these days somewhere in Oxford 278 00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 2: Street and doing a tail squad? Like? Why do it 279 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 2: for scientists? They meant to be curing cancer and stuff. 280 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:04,719 Speaker 2: They don't have time to do all the makeup and 281 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 2: get their heels on. They fall over and topple a 282 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:13,120 Speaker 2: Bunsen burner. But the weird thing about the actually kind 283 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 2: of troubling thing. I mean, it's all just amazingly funny 284 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 2: and just great and awesome. But the problem is that 285 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 2: people see this stuff and they go as they should, 286 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 2: by the way, because it's just ridiculous. But people see 287 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 2: this stuff and they think, well, this is where all 288 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:27,919 Speaker 2: the money is going. This is where this is the 289 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 2: sort of stuff that our money is being spent on. 290 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 2: They're sitting there think, I'm a taxpayer, My tax payer 291 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 2: money is going to fund these ridiculous programs that I'd 292 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 2: never even heard of if you know, the best of times, 293 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 2: and would think we're ridiculous if I just heard of them, 294 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 2: And now I hear about them, and I'm also paying 295 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 2: for them. This sends people spare and I had look, 296 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 2: I had a colleague of mine on Sky and you're saying, 297 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 2: this is why we need to cancel all government research grants. 298 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 2: So really, even the ones to cure camp of every 299 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 2: single public funding grant should be canceled because of these 300 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,640 Speaker 2: But this is the sort of reaction that they promote. 301 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 2: And again, as I wrote this week, if I was 302 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 2: a secret agent working for Donald Trump right, if someone said, Joe, 303 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 2: we want you to take trump Ism international, make it global, 304 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 2: it's kind of like a right wing version of Trotskyism, 305 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 2: which I and this is the first time you'll ever 306 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 2: have heard this word ever, which I have dubbed trump Skiism. 307 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 2: We're taking it good and people want to do this. 308 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 2: You got Nigel Farraj in the UK. You've got the 309 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 2: crazy sort of quasi almost not quite maybe overhangs of 310 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 2: neo Nazism in Germany, the AfD movement pretty creepy. You've 311 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 2: got the Marine le Penz movement in France. I mean, 312 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:47,360 Speaker 2: it is not exactly a secret that populist far right 313 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 2: forces are on the move. And when the left does 314 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 2: stuff like that, you are doing their job for them. 315 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 2: If I was working for one of these populous star Right. First, 316 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 2: this is exactly what I do. I would pretend I 317 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 2: would pretend I was studying decolonizing dentistry and then ask 318 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 2: the government for a million bucks and then just wait 319 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 2: for them to give it to me. And then people 320 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,199 Speaker 2: would read it and go, this is bonkers. This is 321 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 2: what the government's spending money on. Well, the government must 322 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:15,919 Speaker 2: be nuts. The government has to go. And this is 323 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 2: what universities are having. Their research departments, their students, their 324 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 2: academics spend all their time and energy on all these universities. 325 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,199 Speaker 2: They're woke. They've got to go. And if you think 326 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 2: I'm exaggerating, guess what. That's exactly what the coalition is doing. 327 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 2: They're saying that they're going to set up a Doge 328 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 2: style remember that Eon Musk's little efficiency outfit, going to 329 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 2: set up a Doze style outfit that's going to put 330 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 2: an end to all this kind of waste. So they're 331 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 2: already starting to talk like Trump employee Trump terminology in 332 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 2: order to combat this and tap into popular support for 333 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:56,919 Speaker 2: doing this. And you know, Donald Trump comes and says, 334 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 2: you know, we're going to drain the swamp. The opposition 335 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 2: finance spokes Jane Hume spokes woman Jane Hume, lovely lady 336 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,399 Speaker 2: by the way, she's saying, you know, we're going to 337 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 2: end the rot, so we're gonna have a dose style 338 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 2: thing that's going to dred in the swamp and end 339 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 2: the rot because of this crazy, dumb stuff that these 340 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 2: knutbag academic activists are applying for and some nutbag, nameless, 341 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 2: faceless bureaucrat is rubber stamping. And you wonder why populist 342 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 2: far right politics takes off. It's when the lunar left 343 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,640 Speaker 2: does dumb stuff like this. If you just say we're 344 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 2: going to have decent healthcare, we're going to pay our 345 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 2: cops better, we're going to have decent education and pay 346 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,120 Speaker 2: our teachers a proper wage, no one can argue with that. 347 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 2: But you start doing decolonizing breastfeeding, you start doing anti 348 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,679 Speaker 2: racist dentistry, and people think, you know what, maybe the 349 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 2: other lot aren't that crazy, because you sound pretty crazy too. Well. 350 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:58,920 Speaker 2: It is one of three World War three's that could 351 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 2: be about to break out across the planet. It is, 352 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 2: of course, Russia's egregious, evil and wholly illegal invasion of 353 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 2: Ukraine has been dragging on for years now. The carnage 354 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 2: has been absolutely unthinkable. And yet Donald Trump reckons he 355 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 2: can save us all. He reckons he can tell vadmir 356 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 2: and Putin to stop, and he'll stop. And they laughed 357 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 2: at him, they said, And yet that appears to be 358 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 2: what's kind of happened, except maybe it hasn't. But Donald 359 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:34,360 Speaker 2: Trump has had a talk with Vladimir Putin and Russia 360 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:39,679 Speaker 2: has agreed to a thirty day ceasefire of sorts, or 361 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 2: has it. Well, obviously I don't know what I'm talking about, 362 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 2: as you would have just heard from that. So we've 363 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 2: brought in our resident Ukraine expert, my very good mate 364 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 2: Mischa Zelinski, who was a correspondent in the Ukraine. He's 365 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 2: written a book about his experiences there, and he joins 366 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 2: me on the real story, day mate, How are you 367 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 2: good to be with you, Joe, Absolute pleasure to have you. 368 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 2: This is to give the background as quickly as you know, 369 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,639 Speaker 2: and as our listeners might just want to be of 370 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 2: a refresher on. But there are preliminary talks between the 371 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 2: Russians and the Americans that did not involve Ukraine. The 372 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 2: rest of the world, not least of all Ukraine said, 373 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 2: Hang on a minute, How can you negotiate a ceasefire 374 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 2: or a peace when we're not even at the table. 375 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 2: Ukraine had previously been saying it wanted a thirty days 376 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 2: cease fire. It now appears after the two presidents Putin 377 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 2: and Trump have spoken, and again Zelenski doesn't appear to 378 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 2: be in these conversations. He did have one with Donald 379 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 2: Trump didn't end well. It appears that Putin has now 380 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 2: agreed to this ceasefire of sorts. 381 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: Well, look, here's what Donald Trump came away from his 382 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 1: two hour conversation with Vladimir Putin yesterday. This is what 383 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: we understand, is that he come away with an agreement 384 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 1: from Vladimir Putin to stop committing some of his war crimes. Yes, 385 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 1: so he'll continue to commit the other war crimes, and 386 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 1: an agreement to play an ice hockey match between Russia 387 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: and the United States. 388 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 2: So it's they can get pretty violent. 389 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: So if I look a little bit underwhelmed Joe in 390 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 1: terms of thought, Ukraine was bad. So we're being flipping 391 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: about it. But the truth of the matter is to 392 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,119 Speaker 1: unpack that a bit. What Putin has agreed to is 393 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 1: to temporarily for thirty days stop bombing Ukrainian infrastructure. Now, 394 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 1: international law says that if you deliberately target civilian infrastructure, 395 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 1: infrastructure is required to essentially keep people alive, which energy 396 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: infrastructure in a cold place like Ukraine is absolutely falls 397 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: into that category. It's a war crime. So Putin's been 398 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: doing that for years. I've seen that firsthand, seen the 399 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 1: bombing of these facilities and the real scary and awful 400 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 1: detrimental impacts on those that live there. And so he's 401 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: agreed to stop doing that for thirty days. Everything else, 402 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:44,239 Speaker 1: his status quo and his demands remain as egregious as 403 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: ever were, which is a total capitulation of Ukraine. So 404 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 1: to the extent that Donald Trump's come away with any 405 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:49,880 Speaker 1: sort of peace, it's a complete furfee. 406 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:55,399 Speaker 2: And as you say, the ceasefire only applied to energy infrastructure. 407 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 2: It did not necessarily apply to or didn't apply to hostilities, 408 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,360 Speaker 2: didn't apply to what was happening on the water. Although 409 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 2: they have agreed to sort of they're going to talk 410 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,160 Speaker 2: about talking about that. But even the supposed to cease 411 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 2: fire on energy infrastructure, there are reports as we're talking 412 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 2: late on Wednesday, that already Russia had breached this and 413 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 2: there had been another, well, another strike, particularly after. 414 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:24,159 Speaker 1: Donald Trump took away Ukraine's ability tosee US intelligence. So 415 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 1: the US was providing a lot of intelligence in the Ukrainians, 416 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: which was allowing to defend themselves from Russian strikes and 417 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: their infrastructure. So as soon as effectively Ukraine went blind, 418 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 1: Russia ramped up its attacks. It had these biggest drone 419 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 1: attacks and strikes over the last couple of weeks, including 420 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 1: right up until this cease fire, and perhaps right up 421 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 1: and passed, it has been attacking the infrastructure of Ukraine, 422 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 1: relentlessly bombing it into submission. And so again, you know, 423 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin is a war criminal. Taking war criminals at 424 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 1: their word is a stretch at best. But the thing 425 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 1: we always know about Putin is he always makes any deal. 426 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: He makes a little bit like Donald Trump. But you know, 427 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 1: the fact is, we'll wait and see. It's thirty days, 428 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 1: it's not a great agreement. Perhaps it's the start of 429 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: something more, but we've got to be skeptical when dealing 430 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: with Vladimir Putin. I agree with Boris Johnson who said 431 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: recently that Vladimir Putin's laughing at us. And you know, 432 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,120 Speaker 1: the Royal week collectively, we need to muscle up to him. 433 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 2: Well, speaking of the laughing at us or playing us 434 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 2: for fools, as you said, you know, when Ukraine goes blind, 435 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 2: Russia knows that's when it's most vulnerable. That's when Russia strikes. 436 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 2: And one of the conditions that Russia wants to put 437 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 2: on Ukraine if there's to be any further ceasefire, is 438 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 2: that Ukraine ceases to receive any intelligence from any third parties, 439 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,400 Speaker 2: from any allies, and ceases to receive any military support 440 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 2: from them, which of course would make them a sitting 441 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:51,880 Speaker 2: duck if they agreed, I mean, they agreed to that. 442 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: Right, you think about it, right, let's just play it out. 443 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 1: So Vladimir Putin in the last ten years has invade 444 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 1: Ukraine twice, and so the price of peace, according to 445 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin is to say, okay, I'd like to keep 446 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,959 Speaker 1: what I've got, which is fifteen percent of Ukraine's sovereign 447 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: land mass, and in exchange, Ukraine gets no intelligence to 448 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 1: see what we're doing, no weapons to defend itself in 449 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: the future, and I promise I'll never do it again. 450 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like a great peace for Ukrainians, but 451 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: actually think it's as far bigger ramifications for all nations, 452 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 1: including Australia. Fundamentally, this is a pivot point for the world. 453 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: If Putin gets away with this invasion, is able to 454 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: essentially take away Ukraine's sovereignty now and into the future, 455 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 1: can invade the rest of it later on without any 456 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 1: sort of protection for Ukraine. That has extraordinarily dangerous implications 457 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:46,159 Speaker 1: for everybody. And other dictators are watching, they're taking notes, 458 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: and they're making plans, And. 459 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 2: Obviously what you're talking about there is China looking at 460 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,160 Speaker 2: that and saying, right, well, if the world just kind 461 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 2: of goes yeah, and bit of token support, bit of 462 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 2: material support, but no boots on the ground, lets Putin 463 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 2: take away a bit big chunk on the east of Ukraine. 464 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 2: China has a look at that just right, all right, 465 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 2: well we might do the same thing with Taiwan, right 466 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 2: if we know that's not gonna happen. And again it 467 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 2: is like but. 468 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 1: Also North Korea, also Iran, They've all got territorial ambitions 469 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: in their region. China has the most probably forward leaning 470 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 1: ambitions in the area. Wants to be the hedge of 471 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,880 Speaker 1: money in East Asia. But Russia also has its eyes 472 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: on more than just Ukraine. You know, Vladimir Putin is 473 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: on got it all back. He's on the record as 474 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,439 Speaker 1: saying the single biggest geopolitical catastrophe of the twentieth centuries 475 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: of collapse of Soviet Union, not World War One, not 476 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 1: World War Two, the collapse of the Soviet Union, the 477 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: most oppressive regime in human history. 478 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is extraordinary. So we're looking at I suppose 479 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 2: if you like a dress rehearsal for what could happen elsewhere. 480 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 2: So if people think it's just about you know, vloodma 481 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 2: Zelenski just gives back, you know, dunebats. Everything's fine, we 482 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 2: can all just go back to sleeping at night, it 483 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,679 Speaker 2: will actually be give it a look, you give an 484 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 2: inch to a dictator they take. 485 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: The lesson of Putin is that bad behavior unresisted becomes 486 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: worse behavior. You look at his history over twenty years. 487 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 1: He invaded Georgia in two thousand and eight, He invaded 488 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: Ukraine in first time in twenty fourteen. He meddled in 489 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: the US election twenty sixteen. He meddled in Brexit in 490 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. He then invades Ukraine in twenty twenty two. 491 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: All the nice words in the world to say please, 492 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: don't do that, and sternly worded letters do not appear 493 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,400 Speaker 1: to be deterring him from behaving the way that he is. Unfortunately, 494 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,719 Speaker 1: bad behavior is going to be resisted, and it's uncomfortable. 495 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 2: I get it. 496 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: Once you start to engage with the reality of that, 497 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 1: it demands certain behaviors of you, and it is uncomfortable. 498 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 1: But if we don't resist his bad behavior, Putin is 499 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: not going to stop. So what does peace look like? 500 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: Look does it look like Ukraine getting all its land back? 501 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: It should, But at a minimum, whatever peace Ukraine gets, 502 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 1: it must be a secure, sovereign and lasting piece, and 503 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 1: that means they need to have security guarantees, whether that's 504 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: in NATO, whether it's a peacekeeping force of Europeans and 505 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: other like minded nations having troops on the ground inside Ukraine. 506 00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: The dividend of this has to be a Western Democrat, 507 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: European sovereign and free Ukraine secure within its own borders 508 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 1: now and into the future. 509 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 2: So, just looking at the prospect of how that might happen, 510 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 2: obviously it can't happen without US support. I wouldn't have thought. 511 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 2: Ukraine has now said after that Snaffer at the White House. Look, 512 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 2: we'll sign the minerals deal. We'll do whatever you want. 513 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 2: If Putin looks like he's playing Trump for a fool, 514 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 2: and if Putin a breaches the deal that Trump thinks 515 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 2: he has with him, is there a chance that Trump 516 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 2: could sort of pivot and turn off Putin? And how 517 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 2: would he'd have to do it? That have to be 518 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 2: some sort of face saving exercise that Trump was able 519 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 2: to do and say. Either he just pretends it's peace 520 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 2: and says, look, I promised you peace, my piece I 521 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 2: give you and Ukraine says, yeah, but we're half the 522 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 2: size and we don't have any support, blah blah. But 523 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 2: Donald Trump says, up, I've got your peace. That's it done. 524 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 2: Or is there a way that Trump could pivot and say, 525 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 2: you know, we had a deal with Russia, Russia broke it. 526 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 2: They're the bad guys. We're now going to make them pay. 527 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 2: Because he did say, you know, he was talking tough 528 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 2: to Russia and the lead up to his phone call 529 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 2: saying if you do not agree to this ceasefire, which 530 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 2: Russia was refusing to do, you know you're in big trouble. 531 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 2: Is there a chance for Ukraine to win America back 532 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 2: on side under Donald. 533 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: I mean maybe, Look, I think the Ukraine has made 534 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: a big step forward after that shocking meeting in the 535 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: White House where not just Donald Trump but JD. Evans 536 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 1: for whatever reason was, they're berating him as well boriating 537 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: the Vladi Meslensky in the White House in the over Office, 538 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: which is shocking. Since then they've managed to get the 539 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 1: United States back onside. The United States started resharing intelligence 540 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: and military intelligence and providing military support and also providing 541 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: the impetus for a thirty day ceasefire, which of course 542 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 1: has not yet happened. So Trump's completely unpredictable. The one 543 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 1: thing that is predictable about Trump, though, is yeah, look 544 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: he'll say he'll get frustrated. He might then say to 545 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: Putin and Russia, we're going to put sanctions on you, 546 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: et cetera. But what he always does is he talks 547 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 1: it up and then he immediately cuts bad deals. And 548 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: so the art of the deal, actually most of the 549 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: time is a very bad deal. And so what I 550 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 1: would fear in any situation Trump loves the deal less 551 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: than the terms of it. Right, And so from the 552 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: Ukrainian point of view, the longer it goes on, there 553 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: is a chance that this all backflips onto Putin and 554 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: he's left looking like the bad guy that he is. 555 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: But I would fear that Putin knows that Trump wants 556 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: peace almost at any price, and if you want peace 557 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: at almost at any price, then that puts you in 558 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 1: a pretty strong bargaining position. He has a fascination with 559 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 1: Putin's sort of strong man persona, and I would fear 560 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 1: that Putin's size. The document says, I won't invade again. 561 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,719 Speaker 1: That's good enough for me, says Trump, and then he 562 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 1: goes off with about his business. And of course Putin 563 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: has just turned a strategic defeat into strategic victory and 564 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: he re arms and retools himself for maybe not to 565 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 1: the two distant future. 566 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 2: And Trump gets a right here on the payper, I 567 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 2: built the wall. I got your peace. And that's why 568 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 2: anyone else's fake news. 569 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: And that's why I think it needs to have real 570 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: material security guarantees that are more than just assigned piece 571 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: of paper. I mean, when the Ukrainians talk about this, 572 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 1: going right back in history, they actually had the world's 573 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 1: biggest nuclear arsenal post Soviet Union breakup, and they gave 574 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 1: it away nineteen ninety four for security guarantees of their 575 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: sovereign territory outside US and right, right, and so of 576 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,960 Speaker 1: course they have not had that on it. 577 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 2: Never put your gun down first movies. 578 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: And so you can understand the skepticism. And so I 579 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 1: think what looks like real and lasting security guarantees is 580 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: what the Europeans are talking about, when Macron's talking about, 581 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 1: what the United Kingdom are talking about, what the Germans 582 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: are talking about. They've just announced a massive retooling of 583 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: their military. It's boots on the ground. It's what Australia 584 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,959 Speaker 1: is talking about. Being part of that coordinated effort by 585 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 1: like minded nations. I think they're calling it a Coalition 586 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 1: of the Willing. They might, I might considering to rebranding it. 587 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: It's a yeah that sounds good, not led by the 588 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 1: United States on this occasion. But nevertheless, I think security 589 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: of that nature is going to be critical. Words won't 590 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: be enough. Signed pieces of paper with the signature of 591 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: Donald Trump and Vladimir and Putin will not be enough. 592 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 1: But I think we need material, real sovereign guarantees, and 593 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 1: you get those. Look, I think at that point peace 594 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: does start to look a lot better. If it doesn't 595 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 1: have those guarantees, it will be a bad piece. It 596 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 1: will with a much darker, worse outcome. You mentioned World 597 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 1: War three at the beginning. That's what the sort of 598 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: the beginning of a major global conflict I believe could 599 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 1: look like. 600 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 2: There you go, folks, you heard it here. First World 601 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 2: War three still coming, missus lining. Always great to chat 602 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 2: to you, mate, Thanks for those fantastic insights. 603 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 1: Good to be with you mate. As depressing as it is, and. 604 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 2: That is all we have time for this week. Thank 605 00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:58,719 Speaker 2: you so much for your company. I hope you've had 606 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 2: as much fun and as high blood pressure as I have. 607 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 2: If you want to get in touch with us, just 608 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,480 Speaker 2: flick us an email the Real Story at Novapodcasts dot 609 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 2: com dot au. I'm still locked out of my Instagram account, 610 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,279 Speaker 2: as I am out of my Facebook account, and I 611 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 2: have resolved never to post on my Twitter account, so 612 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,399 Speaker 2: that's me done for social media. But you can still 613 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,240 Speaker 2: get a hold of me via the emails, the electronic letters, 614 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 2: or you can simply read my columns in the Daily 615 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 2: and Saturday Telegraphs or various mastheads around the country every 616 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,319 Speaker 2: Monday and Saturday, and you can leave a comment there, 617 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 2: and I promise that I will dive in and read 618 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 2: them and agree with absolutely everything you say. Speaking of which, 619 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,399 Speaker 2: you can leave us a rating or a review on 620 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 2: whatever platform you get your podcasts on. Remember, only five 621 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 2: star ratings are accepted. It's peculiar quirk, little glitch in 622 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 2: the system, so just leave five stars. Try to do 623 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 2: anything else just won't work. So do all that and 624 00:34:54,520 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 2: I will see you and hear you next week.